ASH-25J Crash in Aus

[[email protected]]

Yesterday. Fatal

[AS]

On Monday, January 22, 2018 at 10:55:43 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> Yesterday. Fatal

This is the only thing I could find - not much to go by. Sad, indeed!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5293647/Man-killed-Bathurst-glider-crash.html

[JS[_5_]]

On Monday, January 22, 2018 at 10:31:46 AM UTC-8, AS wrote:
> On Monday, January 22, 2018 at 10:55:43 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> > Yesterday. Fatal
>
> This is the only thing I could find - not much to go by. Sad, indeed!
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5293647/Man-killed-Bathurst-glider-crash.html

We lost another of our brethren. RIP, Paul Mander.
https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=204780
Paul's ASH25E was converted to a twin jet self-launcher several years ago.
Jim

[Mike the Strike]

"It was on fire when it crashed..."

Mike

[Dave Nadler]

On Monday, January 22, 2018 at 2:02:50 PM UTC-5, JS wrote:
> We lost another of our brethren. RIP, Paul Mander.
> https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=204780
> Paul's ASH25E was converted to a twin jet self-launcher several years ago.

In addition to being a great guy and a great pilot, Paul was a great promoter
of our sport and donated countless hours to XC and racing training/coaching.
Paul generously lent me his ASH-25J "GO" for FLARM testing a few years back.
He will be greatly missed.

[Andrzej Kobus]

On Monday, January 22, 2018 at 10:55:43 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> Yesterday. Fatal

RIP Paul. I got to know Paul personally a few years ago when he bought my SZD-55. He was such a passionate guy. Soaring was his life. Condolences to his family.

[Dave Nadler]

On Monday, January 22, 2018 at 2:42:23 PM UTC-5, Mike the Strike wrote:
> "It was on fire when it crashed..."

"GO" was equipped with a video monitor showing the engine area,
and IIRC (its been a few years) a fire-suppression system.
Paul was concerned and careful about the possible mishaps.
Sadly we'll probably never learn what happened.

[Ramy[_2_]]

Tragic accident. Since is was near an airfield chances are there were witnesses. It is important to know if the fire was the cause or the result of the accident. Is there more information available? I am sure many folks with jet sustainers would want to know more.

Ramy

[[email protected]]

The fire was before the crash, seen to be on fire on downwind.
Tom

[Justin Couch]

On Tuesday, 30 January 2018 11:05:13 UTC+11, wrote:
> The fire was before the crash, seen to be on fire on downwind.
> Tom

Confirmed.

This was the second engine bay fire in this particular glider. The reason it has the Jets fitted was because the previous motor caught fire and did a lot of damage. Rather than putting in a new engine, an experimental certificate was obtained and the dual Jet system installed. There's another ASH25M here in Oz that has also suffered an engine bay fire, coincidental or sign of a greater fault? We won't know for at least 12 months. The ATSB (aussie equivalent of NTSB) has taken control of the investigation. GFA is just a passenger now and waiting for the outcomes.

[[email protected]]

Justin, the previous engine in this glider had not run for probably 20 years, you sure this glider had a previous fire? I do know of two other ASH25 with fires, but ASH25Ms, not ASH25e. As you said, the ATSB are involved so a report eventually.
Tom

[Justin Couch]

On Wednesday, 31 January 2018 21:51:29 UTC+11, wrote:
> Justin, the previous engine in this glider had not run for probably 20 years, you sure this glider had a previous fire? I do know of two other ASH25 with fires, but ASH25Ms, not ASH25e. As you said, the ATSB are involved so a report eventually.
> Tom

I'll continue with you privately Tom, but note that the official designation of this glider is an M

http://m.regosearch.com/aircraft/au/GOA

[Tango Whisky]

Le mercredi 31 janvier 2018 12:43:44 UTC+1, Justin Couch a écritÂ*:
> I'll continue with you privately Tom, but note that the official designation of this glider is an M
>
> http://m.regosearch.com/aircraft/au/GOA

That glider (S/N 25045) was an ASH25-E, previously fitted with the Rotax 275.

[Dave Nadler]

On Wednesday, January 31, 2018 at 5:33:37 AM UTC-5, Justin Couch wrote:
> This was the second engine bay fire in this particular glider.
> The reason it has the Jets fitted was because the previous motor
> caught fire and did a lot of damage.

That's not what Paul told me. The original motor in "GO" was an early
factory attempt at a sustainer, famous as as "less than optimum".
Another owner of this particular design told me he sold the engine/prop
immediately as it was the best possible way to dispose of it ;-)
Anyway, the compact jets permitted Paul to retrofit the jets without
making much change to structure (mostly using existing cutout etc).

> ...There's another ASH25M here in Oz that has also suffered an engine
> bay fire, coincidental or sign of a greater fault?

Absolutely coincidental. This engine bay fire was caused by use of
non fire-proof material in a high-temperature area; subsequently
rectified by the manufacturer (as usual without admitting any fault,
nor admitting there had in fact been other instances).
This time the pilot (a good friend of mine) was incredibly lucky.
During take-off, some-one in the tower noticed the fire and called
him on the radio. He aborted take-off, and again fortunately someone
at the airport had a fire-extinguisher handy and got to the plane
shortly after it stopped rolling, so the fire was extinguished promptly.
IIRC it took more than a year to get everything back to working order...

Hope that helps clarify,
Best Regards, Dave

[JS[_5_]]

On Wednesday, January 31, 2018 at 6:17:05 AM UTC-8, Dave Nadler wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 31, 2018 at 5:33:37 AM UTC-5, Justin Couch wrote:
> > This was the second engine bay fire in this particular glider.
> > The reason it has the Jets fitted was because the previous motor
> > caught fire and did a lot of damage.
>
> That's not what Paul told me. The original motor in "GO" was an early
> factory attempt at a sustainer, famous as as "less than optimum".
> Another owner of this particular design told me he sold the engine/prop
> immediately as it was the best possible way to dispose of it ;-)
> Anyway, the compact jets permitted Paul to retrofit the jets without
> making much change to structure (mostly using existing cutout etc).
>
> > ...There's another ASH25M here in Oz that has also suffered an engine
> > bay fire, coincidental or sign of a greater fault?
>
> Absolutely coincidental. This engine bay fire was caused by use of
> non fire-proof material in a high-temperature area; subsequently
> rectified by the manufacturer (as usual without admitting any fault,
> nor admitting there had in fact been other instances).
> This time the pilot (a good friend of mine) was incredibly lucky.
> During take-off, some-one in the tower noticed the fire and called
> him on the radio. He aborted take-off, and again fortunately someone
> at the airport had a fire-extinguisher handy and got to the plane
> shortly after it stopped rolling, so the fire was extinguished promptly.
> IIRC it took more than a year to get everything back to working order...
>
> Hope that helps clarify,
> Best Regards, Dave

A fuel hose was the "material" in the 25M Dave mentions. It is a possibility in any internal combustion sustainer or SLSP with non-fireproof fuel lines, and that list is long. The 25M (one I have many hours in, before and after) fire on the runway at Keepit inspired me to buy a Safecraft fire extinguisher system, and have it installed in the 26E by someone knowledgeable both about gliders and putting out fires, now also the Schleicher rep in USA.
The 25 at Keepit now has a Safecraft system. Believe that Paul's converted 25E and others in Australia had extinguishers installed after I sent info on the 26E install. Seem to remember Safecraft shipping 5 systems to Australia.
At the time of the fire, the pilot of the 25M had an extinguisher in the car, ran and got it. The glider was so badly damaged that it had to be shipped back to Poppenhausen.

From the fire on the runway at Keepit I gathered there are three ways to deal with a fire.
Best: put it out right away.
Third best: find an extinguisher and then put it out.
Second best: get out and let it burn up.

The second best is an option on the ground or at altitude, but if there's a fire on downwind you're not in a great position to get out.
Perhaps Paul was stuck in that scenario. Maybe the fire had spread outside the engine compartment before pulling the handle on the extinguisher.
Wish we could ask.
Jim

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

Fire and being eaten alive by wildlife are among my 2 worst ways to die. Typically neither is quick, both are likely highly painful until shock or death.

Sorry to family and friends to this loss, I didn't know the pilot.

[Dave Nadler]

On Wednesday, January 31, 2018 at 11:45:03 AM UTC-5, JS wrote:
> A fuel hose was the "material" in the 25M Dave mentions.

Jim and I were referring to two different fires.

The fire at Camden I mentioned was due to use of a composite
shroud in a high-temperature area, since replaced with metal.
Fortunately damage in that case was not too bad.

Jim was discussing a fire on the runway at Keepit.

Thanks Jim for the email clarifying...

[jfitch]

On Wednesday, January 31, 2018 at 8:45:03 AM UTC-8, JS wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 31, 2018 at 6:17:05 AM UTC-8, Dave Nadler wrote:
> > On Wednesday, January 31, 2018 at 5:33:37 AM UTC-5, Justin Couch wrote:
> > > This was the second engine bay fire in this particular glider.
> > > The reason it has the Jets fitted was because the previous motor
> > > caught fire and did a lot of damage.
> >
> > That's not what Paul told me. The original motor in "GO" was an early
> > factory attempt at a sustainer, famous as as "less than optimum".
> > Another owner of this particular design told me he sold the engine/prop
> > immediately as it was the best possible way to dispose of it ;-)
> > Anyway, the compact jets permitted Paul to retrofit the jets without
> > making much change to structure (mostly using existing cutout etc).
> >
> > > ...There's another ASH25M here in Oz that has also suffered an engine
> > > bay fire, coincidental or sign of a greater fault?
> >
> > Absolutely coincidental. This engine bay fire was caused by use of
> > non fire-proof material in a high-temperature area; subsequently
> > rectified by the manufacturer (as usual without admitting any fault,
> > nor admitting there had in fact been other instances).
> > This time the pilot (a good friend of mine) was incredibly lucky.
> > During take-off, some-one in the tower noticed the fire and called
> > him on the radio. He aborted take-off, and again fortunately someone
> > at the airport had a fire-extinguisher handy and got to the plane
> > shortly after it stopped rolling, so the fire was extinguished promptly..
> > IIRC it took more than a year to get everything back to working order....
> >
> > Hope that helps clarify,
> > Best Regards, Dave
>
> A fuel hose was the "material" in the 25M Dave mentions. It is a possibility in any internal combustion sustainer or SLSP with non-fireproof fuel lines, and that list is long. The 25M (one I have many hours in, before and after) fire on the runway at Keepit inspired me to buy a Safecraft fire extinguisher system, and have it installed in the 26E by someone knowledgeable both about gliders and putting out fires, now also the Schleicher rep in USA.
> The 25 at Keepit now has a Safecraft system. Believe that Paul's converted 25E and others in Australia had extinguishers installed after I sent info on the 26E install. Seem to remember Safecraft shipping 5 systems to Australia.
> At the time of the fire, the pilot of the 25M had an extinguisher in the car, ran and got it. The glider was so badly damaged that it had to be shipped back to Poppenhausen.
>
> From the fire on the runway at Keepit I gathered there are three ways to deal with a fire.
> Best: put it out right away.
> Third best: find an extinguisher and then put it out.
> Second best: get out and let it burn up.
>
> The second best is an option on the ground or at altitude, but if there's a fire on downwind you're not in a great position to get out.
> Perhaps Paul was stuck in that scenario. Maybe the fire had spread outside the engine compartment before pulling the handle on the extinguisher.
> Wish we could ask.
> Jim

Was the hose involved in the fire the original rubber? On my 26E the progression has been from rubber lines protected by a thin jacket, to polyurethane lines protected by a thicker jacket, and on the Mi engine Aeroquip type stainless/teflon hose covered by a really thick jacket. Curious as to which version was involved in the fire.

[JS[_5_]]

On Wednesday, January 31, 2018 at 11:55:43 AM UTC-8, jfitch wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 31, 2018 at 8:45:03 AM UTC-8, JS wrote:
> > On Wednesday, January 31, 2018 at 6:17:05 AM UTC-8, Dave Nadler wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, January 31, 2018 at 5:33:37 AM UTC-5, Justin Couch wrote:
> > > > This was the second engine bay fire in this particular glider.
> > > > The reason it has the Jets fitted was because the previous motor
> > > > caught fire and did a lot of damage.
> > >
> > > That's not what Paul told me. The original motor in "GO" was an early
> > > factory attempt at a sustainer, famous as as "less than optimum".
> > > Another owner of this particular design told me he sold the engine/prop
> > > immediately as it was the best possible way to dispose of it ;-)
> > > Anyway, the compact jets permitted Paul to retrofit the jets without
> > > making much change to structure (mostly using existing cutout etc).
> > >
> > > > ...There's another ASH25M here in Oz that has also suffered an engine
> > > > bay fire, coincidental or sign of a greater fault?
> > >
> > > Absolutely coincidental. This engine bay fire was caused by use of
> > > non fire-proof material in a high-temperature area; subsequently
> > > rectified by the manufacturer (as usual without admitting any fault,
> > > nor admitting there had in fact been other instances).
> > > This time the pilot (a good friend of mine) was incredibly lucky.
> > > During take-off, some-one in the tower noticed the fire and called
> > > him on the radio. He aborted take-off, and again fortunately someone
> > > at the airport had a fire-extinguisher handy and got to the plane
> > > shortly after it stopped rolling, so the fire was extinguished promptly.
> > > IIRC it took more than a year to get everything back to working order....
> > >
> > > Hope that helps clarify,
> > > Best Regards, Dave
> >
> > A fuel hose was the "material" in the 25M Dave mentions. It is a possibility in any internal combustion sustainer or SLSP with non-fireproof fuel lines, and that list is long. The 25M (one I have many hours in, before and after) fire on the runway at Keepit inspired me to buy a Safecraft fire extinguisher system, and have it installed in the 26E by someone knowledgeable both about gliders and putting out fires, now also the Schleicher rep in USA.
> > The 25 at Keepit now has a Safecraft system. Believe that Paul's converted 25E and others in Australia had extinguishers installed after I sent info on the 26E install. Seem to remember Safecraft shipping 5 systems to Australia.
> > At the time of the fire, the pilot of the 25M had an extinguisher in the car, ran and got it. The glider was so badly damaged that it had to be shipped back to Poppenhausen.
> >
> > From the fire on the runway at Keepit I gathered there are three ways to deal with a fire.
> > Best: put it out right away.
> > Third best: find an extinguisher and then put it out.
> > Second best: get out and let it burn up.
> >
> > The second best is an option on the ground or at altitude, but if there's a fire on downwind you're not in a great position to get out.
> > Perhaps Paul was stuck in that scenario. Maybe the fire had spread outside the engine compartment before pulling the handle on the extinguisher.
> > Wish we could ask.
> > Jim
>
> Was the hose involved in the fire the original rubber? On my 26E the progression has been from rubber lines protected by a thin jacket, to polyurethane lines protected by a thicker jacket, and on the Mi engine Aeroquip type stainless/teflon hose covered by a really thick jacket. Curious as to which version was involved in the fire.

Believe they were original.
Some S-H fuel lines are equally ****e.
Jim

[Justin Couch]

On Thursday, 1 February 2018 01:17:05 UTC+11, Dave Nadler wrote:

> Absolutely coincidental. This engine bay fire was caused by use of
> non fire-proof material in a high-temperature area; subsequently
> rectified by the manufacturer (as usual without admitting any fault,
> nor admitting there had in fact been other instances).
> This time the pilot (a good friend of mine) was incredibly lucky.
> During take-off, some-one in the tower noticed the fire and called
> him on the radio. He aborted take-off, and again fortunately someone
> at the airport had a fire-extinguisher handy and got to the plane
> shortly after it stopped rolling, so the fire was extinguished promptly.
> IIRC it took more than a year to get everything back to working order...

If you're talking about Dion's glider (DWA), it is still not in the air - onboard extinguisher system still not refitted as the bottle is out of certification and nobody wants to touch it (the aftermarket system mentioned up thread). I own his hangar now for almost 12 months and he was having problems before then with it.