Trig TT21 + TN72 TABS ADS-B Out Install working great....

[Darryl Ramm]

I just helped set up the Ramy Yanetz ASG29's TRIG TT21 transponder with a TN72 GPS Source to use as a TABS ADS-B out system. That along with PowerFLARM in his glider makes for a pretty capable overall traffic awareness/collision avoidance system.

Here is a screenshot of my portable Stratux ADS-B receiver (as would be used in many GA aircraft) receiving the ADS-B signal from the TT21 over 20 nautical miles away. Yes, it's a wave day out at Williams.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Kik7OGeTAyRonUoRWISlslyEyMPo62Mu

And again just an reminder, the TN72 is a ~$350 (+ GPS antenna + install costs) GPS Source that can easily be added to any Trig transponder to deliver ADS-B Out in your glider. (If you need full 2020 Compliant ADS-B Out it's a little more involved). This is low-enough cost that it will likely be a "just do it" choice for owners who already have a Trig transponder, and who especially want to provide more visibility to GA traffic (and it makes your glider visible to PowerFLARM buddies at much longer distances).

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, February 11, 2018 at 6:04:37 PM UTC-5, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> I just helped set up the Ramy Yanetz ASG29's TRIG TT21 transponder with a TN72 GPS Source to use as a TABS ADS-B out system. That along with PowerFLARM in his glider makes for a pretty capable overall traffic awareness/collision avoidance system.
>
> Here is a screenshot of my portable Stratux ADS-B receiver (as would be used in many GA aircraft) receiving the ADS-B signal from the TT21 over 20 nautical miles away. Yes, it's a wave day out at Williams.
>
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Kik7OGeTAyRonUoRWISlslyEyMPo62Mu
>
> And again just an reminder, the TN72 is a ~$350 (+ GPS antenna + install costs) GPS Source that can easily be added to any Trig transponder to deliver ADS-B Out in your glider. (If you need full 2020 Compliant ADS-B Out it's a little more involved). This is low-enough cost that it will likely be a "just do it" choice for owners who already have a Trig transponder, and who especially want to provide more visibility to GA traffic (and it makes your glider visible to PowerFLARM buddies at much longer distances).

Please expand on make/model antennae used and where it is located on G29.

[Darryl Ramm]

Most Trig glider dealers should be able to provide an antenna and either it will have a QMA antenna on it or they will install one for you and cut the GPS antenna cable to your length spec. I know Richard at Craggy Aero can do that for you.... he had one in his hand waving it at me when I last saw him :-) Give him a call.

There is nothing special about the GPS antenna mounting location, or really the GPS antenna itself... but the dealers have been checking out specific antennas. You install it in the same location as you would a GPS antenna for your flight computer.

Please don't use the silly TA70 wall wart antenna. That is TSO-ed-silliness on a stick, just not something suitable for a glider, and seems pretty contrary to the original easy adoption intent of TABS/TSO-C199. TRIG is aware of this, the TA70 came from earlier STCs for 2020 Compliant ADS-B Out installs.










On Sunday, February 11, 2018 at 3:13:48 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> On Sunday, February 11, 2018 at 6:04:37 PM UTC-5, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > I just helped set up the Ramy Yanetz ASG29's TRIG TT21 transponder with a TN72 GPS Source to use as a TABS ADS-B out system. That along with PowerFLARM in his glider makes for a pretty capable overall traffic awareness/collision avoidance system.
> >
> > Here is a screenshot of my portable Stratux ADS-B receiver (as would be used in many GA aircraft) receiving the ADS-B signal from the TT21 over 20 nautical miles away. Yes, it's a wave day out at Williams.
> >
> > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Kik7OGeTAyRonUoRWISlslyEyMPo62Mu
> >
> > And again just an reminder, the TN72 is a ~$350 (+ GPS antenna + install costs) GPS Source that can easily be added to any Trig transponder to deliver ADS-B Out in your glider. (If you need full 2020 Compliant ADS-B Out it's a little more involved). This is low-enough cost that it will likely be a "just do it" choice for owners who already have a Trig transponder, and who especially want to provide more visibility to GA traffic (and it makes your glider visible to PowerFLARM buddies at much longer distances).
>
> Please expand on make/model antennae used and where it is located on G29.

[son_of_flubber]

On Sunday, February 11, 2018 at 6:04:37 PM UTC-5, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> I just helped set up the Ramy Yanetz ASG29's TRIG TT21 transponder with a TN72 GPS Source to use as a TABS ADS-B out system. That along with PowerFLARM in his glider makes for a pretty capable overall traffic awareness/collision avoidance system.

So Ramy is using the PowerFlarm for ADS-B In? What display? Is it linked to a moving map? Any significant limitations to that configuration?

[Dan Marotta]

My ClearNav II displays ADS-B In targets generated by my PowerFlarm
portable unit.

A question for Darryl (or a general whine):Â* My Stemme is exempt from
the ADS-B requirement as a glider but, since it's a certificated
aircraft, I probably can't use the TN-72 GPS with my TT22 transponder.Â*
Is there any chance of such a system being installed in a certificated
glider?

Dan

On 2/11/2018 5:01 PM, son_of_flubber wrote:
> On Sunday, February 11, 2018 at 6:04:37 PM UTC-5, Darryl Ramm wrote:
>> I just helped set up the Ramy Yanetz ASG29's TRIG TT21 transponder with a TN72 GPS Source to use as a TABS ADS-B out system. That along with PowerFLARM in his glider makes for a pretty capable overall traffic awareness/collision avoidance system.
> So Ramy is using the PowerFlarm for ADS-B In? What display? Is it linked to a moving map? Any significant limitations to that configuration?

--
Dan, 5J

[Darryl Ramm]

On Sunday, February 11, 2018 at 4:35:10 PM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
> My ClearNav II displays ADS-B In targets generated by my PowerFlarm
> portable unit.
>
> A question for Darryl (or a general whine):Â* My Stemme is exempt from
> the ADS-B requirement as a glider but, since it's a certificated
> aircraft, I probably can't use the TN-72 GPS with my TT22 transponder.Â*
> Is there any chance of such a system being installed in a certificated
> glider?
>
> Dan
>
> On 2/11/2018 5:01 PM, son_of_flubber wrote:
> > On Sunday, February 11, 2018 at 6:04:37 PM UTC-5, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> >> I just helped set up the Ramy Yanetz ASG29's TRIG TT21 transponder with a TN72 GPS Source to use as a TABS ADS-B out system. That along with PowerFLARM in his glider makes for a pretty capable overall traffic awareness/collision avoidance system.
> > So Ramy is using the PowerFlarm for ADS-B In? What display? Is it linked to a moving map? Any significant limitations to that configuration?
>
> --
> Dan, 5J

Dan

You can use the TN72 with any Trig Transponder in your type certificated glider... but only as a TABS ADS-B Out setup... which means in practice you get all the benefits of ADS-B Out... except you can't use that to meet any 2020 ADS-B Out flight requirements... e.g. you could not say fly in Class A, B or C airspace, etc. with your glider after January 1, 2020 with a TABS ADS-B setup. But as for use in advertising your position to ADS-B In equipped aircraft and ATC, and making you an ADS-B client aircraft (if say you want to get TIS-B services to a Stratus/Stratux box)... that all works great just doing TABS.

If you want to operate your Stemme after January 1 2020 in areas that require ADS-B Out for gliders then you would need a "2020 compliant" install, which with a Trig transponder would normally use a TN70 TSO-C145c GPS Source. (And in this case the TSO is important... and the silliness is if this was an experimental glider you could actually use the TN72 for a 2020 compliant install). Having fun yet?

And yes you have a right to whine. ADS-B is a painful unfortunate confusing mess. But I can't even play the piano so don't shoot me :-)

Darryl

[Darryl Ramm]

On Sunday, February 11, 2018 at 4:01:58 PM UTC-8, son_of_flubber wrote:
> On Sunday, February 11, 2018 at 6:04:37 PM UTC-5, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > I just helped set up the Ramy Yanetz ASG29's TRIG TT21 transponder with a TN72 GPS Source to use as a TABS ADS-B out system. That along with PowerFLARM in his glider makes for a pretty capable overall traffic awareness/collision avoidance system.
>
> So Ramy is using the PowerFlarm for ADS-B In? What display? Is it linked to a moving map? Any significant limitations to that configuration?

(sorry if we get repeat replies here, Google groups seems to be having problems with my replies)

This ASG29 has a LX9000 display and the setup with his PowerFLARM has not changed... it receives 1090ES In like all most of the PowerFLARM sold in the USA and displays that on the LX9000 just as it had previously. All that was done recently was send the TT21 in for a firmware update (required for TABS/ADS-B Out) and have the TN72 connected and the half dozen or so software settings twiddled in the TT21 to set it up for TABS.

And as I have warned about before on r.a.s. ... PowerFLARM does not decode ADS-R or TIS-B and having 1090ES Out/TABS does not change anything here. But with so much traffic being 1090ES Out you at least see that... and like today... all the traffic anywhere near the area was 1090ES Out (I have a dual-link receiver and was watching for that). But now Ramy's glider has 1090ES Out and is visible to other aircraft via 1090ES direct, and possibly ADS-R to suitably equipped UAT client aircraft, and via ADS-B to ATC. BTW since I've also been saying this at some recent talks/seminars I'll say it here as well... the good folks at FLARM are well aware of lack of ADS-R and TIS-B support with PowerFLARM. I have hope there will be a solution there in future.

[Steve Koerner]

It was a just-do-it choice for me when Darryl explained all the ins and outs a few months ago. I truly don't want to get run over by a putt-putt especially now as more and more power pilots will have their nose down playing with new electronic toys. For an incremental $350, it's really a no-brainer and it's not a difficult install. Thank you Darryl for all the great information and explanations on this forum. Richard was quite helpful for me as well.

> And again just an reminder, the TN72 is a ~$350 (+ GPS antenna + install costs) GPS Source that can easily be added to any Trig transponder to deliver ADS-B Out in your glider. (If you need full 2020 Compliant ADS-B Out it's a little more involved). This is low-enough cost that it will likely be a "just do it" choice for owners who already have a Trig transponder, and who especially want to provide more visibility to GA traffic (and it makes your glider visible to PowerFLARM buddies at much longer distances).

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, February 11, 2018 at 6:52:03 PM UTC-5, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> Most Trig glider dealers should be able to provide an antenna and either it will have a QMA antenna on it or they will install one for you and cut the GPS antenna cable to your length spec. I know Richard at Craggy Aero can do that for you.... he had one in his hand waving it at me when I last saw him :-) Give him a call.
>
> There is nothing special about the GPS antenna mounting location, or really the GPS antenna itself... but the dealers have been checking out specific antennas. You install it in the same location as you would a GPS antenna for your flight computer.
>
> Please don't use the silly TA70 wall wart antenna. That is TSO-ed-silliness on a stick, just not something suitable for a glider, and seems pretty contrary to the original easy adoption intent of TABS/TSO-C199. TRIG is aware of this, the TA70 came from earlier STCs for 2020 Compliant ADS-B Out installs.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sunday, February 11, 2018 at 3:13:48 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> > On Sunday, February 11, 2018 at 6:04:37 PM UTC-5, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > > I just helped set up the Ramy Yanetz ASG29's TRIG TT21 transponder with a TN72 GPS Source to use as a TABS ADS-B out system. That along with PowerFLARM in his glider makes for a pretty capable overall traffic awareness/collision avoidance system.
> > >
> > > Here is a screenshot of my portable Stratux ADS-B receiver (as would be used in many GA aircraft) receiving the ADS-B signal from the TT21 over 20 nautical miles away. Yes, it's a wave day out at Williams.
> > >
> > > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Kik7OGeTAyRonUoRWISlslyEyMPo62Mu
> > >
> > > And again just an reminder, the TN72 is a ~$350 (+ GPS antenna + install costs) GPS Source that can easily be added to any Trig transponder to deliver ADS-B Out in your glider. (If you need full 2020 Compliant ADS-B Out it's a little more involved). This is low-enough cost that it will likely be a "just do it" choice for owners who already have a Trig transponder, and who especially want to provide more visibility to GA traffic (and it makes your glider visible to PowerFLARM buddies at much longer distances).
> >
> > Please expand on make/model antennae used and where it is located on G29.

Too many antenna. 4 GPS and 2 FLARM within 30". We need a reliable way to split/share GPS signal off a single antennae.

[Richard Pfiffner[_2_]]

On Sunday, February 11, 2018 at 5:57:21 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> On Sunday, February 11, 2018 at 6:52:03 PM UTC-5, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > Most Trig glider dealers should be able to provide an antenna and either it will have a QMA antenna on it or they will install one for you and cut the GPS antenna cable to your length spec. I know Richard at Craggy Aero can do that for you.... he had one in his hand waving it at me when I last saw him :-) Give him a call.
> >
> > There is nothing special about the GPS antenna mounting location, or really the GPS antenna itself... but the dealers have been checking out specific antennas. You install it in the same location as you would a GPS antenna for your flight computer.
> >
> > Please don't use the silly TA70 wall wart antenna. That is TSO-ed-silliness on a stick, just not something suitable for a glider, and seems pretty contrary to the original easy adoption intent of TABS/TSO-C199. TRIG is aware of this, the TA70 came from earlier STCs for 2020 Compliant ADS-B Out installs.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sunday, February 11, 2018 at 3:13:48 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> > > On Sunday, February 11, 2018 at 6:04:37 PM UTC-5, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > > > I just helped set up the Ramy Yanetz ASG29's TRIG TT21 transponder with a TN72 GPS Source to use as a TABS ADS-B out system. That along with PowerFLARM in his glider makes for a pretty capable overall traffic awareness/collision avoidance system.
> > > >
> > > > Here is a screenshot of my portable Stratux ADS-B receiver (as would be used in many GA aircraft) receiving the ADS-B signal from the TT21 over 20 nautical miles away. Yes, it's a wave day out at Williams.
> > > >
> > > > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Kik7OGeTAyRonUoRWISlslyEyMPo62Mu
> > > >
> > > > And again just an reminder, the TN72 is a ~$350 (+ GPS antenna + install costs) GPS Source that can easily be added to any Trig transponder to deliver ADS-B Out in your glider. (If you need full 2020 Compliant ADS-B Out it's a little more involved). This is low-enough cost that it will likely be a "just do it" choice for owners who already have a Trig transponder, and who especially want to provide more visibility to GA traffic (and it makes your glider visible to PowerFLARM buddies at much longer distances).
> > >
> > > Please expand on make/model antennae used and where it is located on G29.
>
> Too many antenna. 4 GPS and 2 FLARM within 30". We need a reliable way to split/share GPS signal off a single antennae.

http://www.craggyaero.com/antennas.htm

Bottom Page

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[Darryl Ramm]

You can do a lot to merge GPS antennas you already have. Personally I would not be doibg that for a GPS source used to drive any type of ADS-B Out.

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

Great, now if we could get something like that for GPS. I have 3 GPS's now without ADS-B in out or sideways. Flarm, LX and Butterfly.

On Sunday, February 11, 2018 at 6:20:41 PM UTC-8, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> > Too many antenna. 4 GPS and 2 FLARM within 30". We need a reliable way to split/share GPS signal off a single antennae.
>
> http://www.craggyaero.com/antennas.htm
>
> Bottom Page
>
> Richard
> www.craggyaero.com

[George Haeh]

So we're looking at:

$350 TN72
$321 GPS Antenna Combiner & cables for Flarm + GPS vario

$671 Total before shipping.

There's just barely enough room under my glareshield for 2 GPS antennae 30"

apart. Without the combiner I'd have to wire the third antenna to my hat.


I'm still entertaining the fantasy of mounting an L2 transponder antenna in
the
tail battery box of my 27 - and routing a fat enough coax there. I dread
the
thought of dirtying my 27 with an external transponder antenna.

[Steve Koerner]

On Sunday, February 11, 2018 at 8:15:07 PM UTC-7, George Haeh wrote:
> So we're looking at:
>
> $350 TN72
> $321 GPS Antenna Combiner & cables for Flarm + GPS vario
>
> $671 Total before shipping.
>
> There's just barely enough room under my glareshield for 2 GPS antennae 30"
>
> apart. Without the combiner I'd have to wire the third antenna to my hat.
>
>
> I'm still entertaining the fantasy of mounting an L2 transponder antenna in
> the
> tail battery box of my 27 - and routing a fat enough coax there. I dread
> the
> thought of dirtying my 27 with an external transponder antenna.

I've got 5 GPS antenna pucks under the glareshield of my '27. Space them out but don't worry about the 30" bit. That's an exaggerated requirement.

[Retting]

I had 4 under my glare with no issues. Just a few inches apart.
R

[Darryl Ramm]

I was going to say the same as Steve. These GPS antenna spacing concerns seem largely folklore. It’s hard to imagine what is going to cause problems there anyhow, back-leakage of local oscillator from inside the GPS electronics back to the antenna??? In some cases I’ve seen confusion between gps antenna to gps antenna and gps antenna to say DME or VHF coms antennas and they may make more sense. Even if it exists as a real problem at all, many many gliders have flown sucesfully with multiple GPS antennas separated at most by a few inches. Including two of mine.

[JS[_5_]]

On Sunday, February 11, 2018 at 10:09:53 PM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> I was going to say the same as Steve. These GPS antenna spacing concerns seem largely folklore. It’s hard to imagine what is going to cause problems there anyhow, back-leakage of local oscillator from inside the GPS electronics back to the antenna??? In some cases I’ve seen confusion between gps antenna to gps antenna and gps antenna to say DME or VHF coms antennas and they may make more sense. Even if it exists as a real problem at all, many many gliders have flown sucesfully with multiple GPS antennas separated at most by a few inches. Including two of mine.

In personal experience, GPS position is acquired faster with fewer antennas..
For example: Two antennas and one divider for four receivers acquires faster than four separate antennas behind the already crowded panel.
YMMV, WTFIHTA, etc.
Jim

Jim

[[email protected]]

So to confirm what I think I understand: an Experimental airworthiness glider can fully satisfy the 2020 ADS-B mandate using the TT22 + TN72.

A Standard airworthiness glider must use the TT22 + TN70.

(The TN70 is about $1500 more than the TN72).

Is that correct?

Matt

[Bob Caldwell (BC)]

On Sunday, February 11, 2018 at 4:04:37 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> I just helped set up the Ramy Yanetz ASG29's TRIG TT21 transponder with a TN72 GPS Source to use as a TABS ADS-B out system. That along with PowerFLARM in his glider makes for a pretty capable overall traffic awareness/collision avoidance system.
>
> Here is a screenshot of my portable Stratux ADS-B receiver (as would be used in many GA aircraft) receiving the ADS-B signal from the TT21 over 20 nautical miles away. Yes, it's a wave day out at Williams.
>
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Kik7OGeTAyRonUoRWISlslyEyMPo62Mu
>
> And again just an reminder, the TN72 is a ~$350 (+ GPS antenna + install costs) GPS Source that can easily be added to any Trig transponder to deliver ADS-B Out in your glider. (If you need full 2020 Compliant ADS-B Out it's a little more involved). This is low-enough cost that it will likely be a "just do it" choice for owners who already have a Trig transponder, and who especially want to provide more visibility to GA traffic (and it makes your glider visible to PowerFLARM buddies at much longer distances).

So how much of a hassle was it to update the XPDR and head on the TT21? My stuff is buried in the mess of other stuff under my glare shield. Can a local Trig dealer do it or does it have to go to Micro Air in Kansas?

[Darryl Ramm]

On Monday, February 12, 2018 at 8:00:49 AM UTC-8, Bob Caldwell (BC) wrote:
> On Sunday, February 11, 2018 at 4:04:37 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > I just helped set up the Ramy Yanetz ASG29's TRIG TT21 transponder with a TN72 GPS Source to use as a TABS ADS-B out system. That along with PowerFLARM in his glider makes for a pretty capable overall traffic awareness/collision avoidance system.
> >
> > Here is a screenshot of my portable Stratux ADS-B receiver (as would be used in many GA aircraft) receiving the ADS-B signal from the TT21 over 20 nautical miles away. Yes, it's a wave day out at Williams.
> >
> > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Kik7OGeTAyRonUoRWISlslyEyMPo62Mu
> >
> > And again just an reminder, the TN72 is a ~$350 (+ GPS antenna + install costs) GPS Source that can easily be added to any Trig transponder to deliver ADS-B Out in your glider. (If you need full 2020 Compliant ADS-B Out it's a little more involved). This is low-enough cost that it will likely be a "just do it" choice for owners who already have a Trig transponder, and who especially want to provide more visibility to GA traffic (and it makes your glider visible to PowerFLARM buddies at much longer distances).
>
> So how much of a hassle was it to update the XPDR and head on the TT21? My stuff is buried in the mess of other stuff under my glare shield. Can a local Trig dealer do it or does it have to go to Micro Air in Kansas?

I think just a typo, but to be clear Microair is a different transponder manufacturer (who does not make any Transponder capable of 1090ES Out or TABS, or even basic Mode S) .

If a Trig TT21 or TT22 needs a firmware update they have to go back to MidContinent, the USA Trig service center https://www.trig-avionics.com/support/u-s/. The update is free.

For use with the TN72 a TT21 or TT22 transponders need firmware 2.12 or higher and control head firmware 1.14 or higher.

The possible need to ship hardware back to MidContinent is one reason I have been advertising for a while why it is a good idea to get this done over this winter. Turn around there may only be a few days, call them and check.

[Darryl Ramm]

On Monday, February 12, 2018 at 7:45:25 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> So to confirm what I think I understand: an Experimental airworthiness glider can fully satisfy the 2020 ADS-B mandate using the TT22 + TN72.
>
> A Standard airworthiness glider must use the TT22 + TN70.
>
> (The TN70 is about $1500 more than the TN72).
>
> Is that correct?
>
> Matt

Yes.

But again, for most gliders they likely don't need to meet the 2020 Mandate and will get all the ADS-B Out benefits they need from just doing a TABS install.

Just transmitting SIL=3 aka a 2020 Compliant ADS-B Out install makes it more serious than doing a TABS (SIL=1 instal). Even if not required for an install in an experimental aircraft I would still hope that any 2020 Compliant install is checked by the installer and/or owner by doing a FAA validation test flight (details all over the web) as usually done for a type certified installation. Many mistakes with ADS-B Out are simple software settings issues and it would be better to know it's apparently working OK and not have to have an FSDO inspector track the owner down... FAA folks are having to waste their time doing that now because there are many ADS-B Out installations with problems, and yes they are paying lots of attention to new ADS-B Out installs that show up in their surveillance system. And let me preemptively guess that stuff like TT22 not set to use squat switch emulation will be a common problem for 2020 Complaint installs of a TT22+TN72 in experimental gliders. That is discussed in the documentation, but it's silly stuff like that causing issues in GA ADS-B land.

[Richard Pfiffner[_2_]]

On Monday, February 12, 2018 at 8:00:49 AM UTC-8, Bob Caldwell (BC) wrote:
> On Sunday, February 11, 2018 at 4:04:37 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > I just helped set up the Ramy Yanetz ASG29's TRIG TT21 transponder with a TN72 GPS Source to use as a TABS ADS-B out system. That along with PowerFLARM in his glider makes for a pretty capable overall traffic awareness/collision avoidance system.
> >
> > Here is a screenshot of my portable Stratux ADS-B receiver (as would be used in many GA aircraft) receiving the ADS-B signal from the TT21 over 20 nautical miles away. Yes, it's a wave day out at Williams.
> >
> > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Kik7OGeTAyRonUoRWISlslyEyMPo62Mu
> >
> > And again just an reminder, the TN72 is a ~$350 (+ GPS antenna + install costs) GPS Source that can easily be added to any Trig transponder to deliver ADS-B Out in your glider. (If you need full 2020 Compliant ADS-B Out it's a little more involved). This is low-enough cost that it will likely be a "just do it" choice for owners who already have a Trig transponder, and who especially want to provide more visibility to GA traffic (and it makes your glider visible to PowerFLARM buddies at much longer distances).
>
> So how much of a hassle was it to update the XPDR and head on the TT21? My stuff is buried in the mess of other stuff under my glare shield. Can a local Trig dealer do it or does it have to go to Micro Air in Kansas?

The Company for Trig Service is Mid Continent Instruments
https://www.mcico.com/

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[Richard Pfiffner[_2_]]

On Monday, February 12, 2018 at 8:00:49 AM UTC-8, Bob Caldwell (BC) wrote:
> On Sunday, February 11, 2018 at 4:04:37 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > I just helped set up the Ramy Yanetz ASG29's TRIG TT21 transponder with a TN72 GPS Source to use as a TABS ADS-B out system. That along with PowerFLARM in his glider makes for a pretty capable overall traffic awareness/collision avoidance system.
> >
> > Here is a screenshot of my portable Stratux ADS-B receiver (as would be used in many GA aircraft) receiving the ADS-B signal from the TT21 over 20 nautical miles away. Yes, it's a wave day out at Williams.
> >
> > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Kik7OGeTAyRonUoRWISlslyEyMPo62Mu
> >
> > And again just an reminder, the TN72 is a ~$350 (+ GPS antenna + install costs) GPS Source that can easily be added to any Trig transponder to deliver ADS-B Out in your glider. (If you need full 2020 Compliant ADS-B Out it's a little more involved). This is low-enough cost that it will likely be a "just do it" choice for owners who already have a Trig transponder, and who especially want to provide more visibility to GA traffic (and it makes your glider visible to PowerFLARM buddies at much longer distances).
>
> So how much of a hassle was it to update the XPDR and head on the TT21? My stuff is buried in the mess of other stuff under my glare shield. Can a local Trig dealer do it or does it have to go to Micro Air in Kansas?

The Company for Trig Service is MidContinent Instruments, they will do the free firmware update to the TT22.

https://www.mcico.com/

Please talk to the service department, I think you only need to send them the main unit.

Information about the TT22, TN72

http://www.craggyaero.com/trig.htm

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[Ramy[_2_]]

I was asked to send both units as both need to be upgraded. Turnaround time was about 2 weeks and they only charged for shipping.

Ramy

[son_of_flubber]

On Monday, February 12, 2018 at 11:00:49 AM UTC-5, Bob Caldwell (BC) wrote:

> So how much of a hassle was it to update the XPDR and head on the TT21? My stuff is buried in the mess of other stuff under my glare shield. Can a local Trig dealer do it or does it have to go to Micro Air in Kansas?

A local Trig dealer can do the software upgrade if they have the proper cables, equipment, time in their schedule, and expertise. But it is free + shipping + insurance from Mid Continent. I thought it was rather easy to pull the head and XPDR unit out of plane. You don't need to send them the cable.

[Andrzej Kobus]

On Monday, February 12, 2018 at 11:43:08 AM UTC-5, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> On Monday, February 12, 2018 at 7:45:25 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> > So to confirm what I think I understand: an Experimental airworthiness glider can fully satisfy the 2020 ADS-B mandate using the TT22 + TN72.
> >
> > A Standard airworthiness glider must use the TT22 + TN70.
> >
> > (The TN70 is about $1500 more than the TN72).
> >
> > Is that correct?
> >
> > Matt
>
> Yes.
>
> But again, for most gliders they likely don't need to meet the 2020 Mandate and will get all the ADS-B Out benefits they need from just doing a TABS install.
>
> Just transmitting SIL=3 aka a 2020 Compliant ADS-B Out install makes it more serious than doing a TABS (SIL=1 instal). Even if not required for an install in an experimental aircraft I would still hope that any 2020 Compliant install is checked by the installer and/or owner by doing a FAA validation test flight (details all over the web) as usually done for a type certified installation. Many mistakes with ADS-B Out are simple software settings issues and it would be better to know it's apparently working OK and not have to have an FSDO inspector track the owner down... FAA folks are having to waste their time doing that now because there are many ADS-B Out installations with problems, and yes they are paying lots of attention to new ADS-B Out installs that show up in their surveillance system. And let me preemptively guess that stuff like TT22 not set to use squat switch emulation will be a common problem for 2020 Complaint installs of a TT22+TN72 in experimental gliders. That is discussed in the documentation, but it's silly stuff like that causing issues in GA ADS-B land.

And once you do a full validation of the install you will quickly find out that antenna placement matters a lot!

[Ramy[_2_]]

On Monday, February 12, 2018 at 1:21:21 PM UTC-8, son_of_flubber wrote:
> On Monday, February 12, 2018 at 11:00:49 AM UTC-5, Bob Caldwell (BC) wrote:
>
> > So how much of a hassle was it to update the XPDR and head on the TT21? My stuff is buried in the mess of other stuff under my glare shield. Can a local Trig dealer do it or does it have to go to Micro Air in Kansas?
>
> A local Trig dealer can do the software upgrade if they have the proper cables, equipment, time in their schedule, and expertise. But it is free + shipping + insurance from Mid Continent. I thought it was rather easy to pull the head and XPDR unit out of plane. You don't need to send them the cable.

It will be cool if we could integrate our ADS-B data into the sailplane tracker to provide continuous real time position reporting.

Ramy

[Mike Schumann[_2_]]

On Monday, February 12, 2018 at 6:19:14 PM UTC-6, Ramy wrote:
> On Monday, February 12, 2018 at 1:21:21 PM UTC-8, son_of_flubber wrote:
> > On Monday, February 12, 2018 at 11:00:49 AM UTC-5, Bob Caldwell (BC) wrote:
> >
> > > So how much of a hassle was it to update the XPDR and head on the TT21? My stuff is buried in the mess of other stuff under my glare shield. Can a local Trig dealer do it or does it have to go to Micro Air in Kansas?
> >
> > A local Trig dealer can do the software upgrade if they have the proper cables, equipment, time in their schedule, and expertise. But it is free + shipping + insurance from Mid Continent. I thought it was rather easy to pull the head and XPDR unit out of plane. You don't need to send them the cable.
>
> It will be cool if we could integrate our ADS-B data into the sailplane tracker to provide continuous real time position reporting.
>
> Ramy

For under $100 you can build an ADS-B receiver, and get a free enterprise subscription to flightaware.com (see https://flightaware.com/adsb/piaware/build). With that you can enter your N number and get a track of all of your flights for the last 6 months or so.

Using the same hardware, you can also get other software that feeds other databases in addition to flightaware. There are over 15,000 of these amateur receivers deployed around the world. There are even guys installing these on mountain peaks out west, coupled with directional WIFI antennas with 30+ mile links to the closest internet connection. Amazing stuff you can do for cheap.

[Dirk_PW[_2_]]

Has anyone measured the extra power consumption associated with the TN72 and additional GPS antenna installation? Significant or trivial? Does the ADS-B configuration change in the Trig result in more frequent xpndr transmissions?

[Darryl Ramm]

The extra ~2/second broadcasts from the transponder is likely lost in the noise compared to all the interrogations a transponder otherwise gets. So go by the specs or better just measure the TN72 + GPS antenna power consumption on the ground and add that to your power budget. The few mA at 12V effective current draw from the GPS antenna should have small effect as well.

[Ramy[_2_]]

I noticed smal effect. I suspect my battery last 10% or so less than before.

Ramy

[Dan Marotta]

Ramy,

Can you add a solar cell somewhere or replace lead/acid battery with
LiFePO4, if not already done?Â* Room for another battery?

While I don't wish to return to the sectional chart with concentric
circles and a "prayer wheel", it would be nice to have sufficient power
to drive all these new fangled contraptions.Â* Maybe I should remove the
espresso machine from my Stemme...Â* Naaah...Â* One needs one's luxuries. ;-)

On 3/11/2018 10:19 PM, Ramy wrote:
> I noticed smal effect. I suspect my battery last 10% or so less than before.
>
> Ramy

--
Dan, 5J

[Ramy[_2_]]

On Monday, March 12, 2018 at 9:57:10 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Ramy,
>
> Can you add a solar cell somewhere or replace lead/acid battery with
> LiFePO4, if not already done?Â* Room for another battery?
>
> While I don't wish to return to the sectional chart with concentric
> circles and a "prayer wheel", it would be nice to have sufficient power
> to drive all these new fangled contraptions.Â* Maybe I should remove the
> espresso machine from my Stemme...Â* Naaah...Â* One needs one's luxuries. ;-)
>
> On 3/11/2018 10:19 PM, Ramy wrote:
> > I noticed smal effect. I suspect my battery last 10% or so less than before.
> >
> > Ramy
>
> --
> Dan, 5J

Already have two lifePO4 + solar panel. With all the electronics I have, which includes LX9000, powerflarm, radio, transponder, Dell Streak, and the TN72 addition, my two batteries last around 10 hours which is plenty for most of my flights. If I am running low I can selectively turn off some of the instruments to extend the time. So bottom line, you should have sufficient power even after adding ADS-B.

Ramy

[[email protected]]

On Monday, March 12, 2018 at 4:52:08 PM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:
> On Monday, March 12, 2018 at 9:57:10 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > Ramy,
> >
> > Can you add a solar cell somewhere or replace lead/acid battery with
> > LiFePO4, if not already done?Â* Room for another battery?
> >
> > While I don't wish to return to the sectional chart with concentric
> > circles and a "prayer wheel", it would be nice to have sufficient power
> > to drive all these new fangled contraptions.Â* Maybe I should remove the
> > espresso machine from my Stemme...Â* Naaah...Â* One needs one's luxuries. ;-)
> >
> > On 3/11/2018 10:19 PM, Ramy wrote:
> > > I noticed smal effect. I suspect my battery last 10% or so less than before.
> > >
> > > Ramy
> >
> > --
> > Dan, 5J
>
> Already have two lifePO4 + solar panel. With all the electronics I have, which includes LX9000, powerflarm, radio, transponder, Dell Streak, and the TN72 addition, my two batteries last around 10 hours which is plenty for most of my flights. If I am running low I can selectively turn off some of the instruments to extend the time. So bottom line, you should have sufficient power even after adding ADS-B.
>
> Ramy

Darryl and Ramy,
I just completed installation of the TN72 with proper GPS antenna on my (updated firmware) Trig 22 for my '29. If it's not too much of a hassle, how do you configure the TT22 for ASD-B out? I understand that SIL-3 should be selected in the config screen (I'm EXPERIMENTAL). What else to look for?
Thanks,
Herb J7

[Darryl Ramm]

On Saturday, March 31, 2018 at 9:00:38 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Monday, March 12, 2018 at 4:52:08 PM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:
> > On Monday, March 12, 2018 at 9:57:10 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > > Ramy,
> > >
> > > Can you add a solar cell somewhere or replace lead/acid battery with
> > > LiFePO4, if not already done?Â* Room for another battery?
> > >
> > > While I don't wish to return to the sectional chart with concentric
> > > circles and a "prayer wheel", it would be nice to have sufficient power
> > > to drive all these new fangled contraptions.Â* Maybe I should remove the
> > > espresso machine from my Stemme...Â* Naaah...Â* One needs one's luxuries. ;-)
> > >
> > > On 3/11/2018 10:19 PM, Ramy wrote:
> > > > I noticed smal effect. I suspect my battery last 10% or so less than before.
> > > >
> > > > Ramy
> > >
> > > --
> > > Dan, 5J
> >
> > Already have two lifePO4 + solar panel. With all the electronics I have, which includes LX9000, powerflarm, radio, transponder, Dell Streak, and the TN72 addition, my two batteries last around 10 hours which is plenty for most of my flights. If I am running low I can selectively turn off some of the instruments to extend the time. So bottom line, you should have sufficient power even after adding ADS-B.
> >
> > Ramy
>
> Darryl and Ramy,
> I just completed installation of the TN72 with proper GPS antenna on my (updated firmware) Trig 22 for my '29. If it's not too much of a hassle, how do you configure the TT22 for ASD-B out? I understand that SIL-3 should be selected in the config screen (I'm EXPERIMENTAL). What else to look for?
> Thanks,
> Herb J7

Herb

First, did you install a pitot pressure "squat" switch? The TT21/TT22 can use GPS ground speed (and other inputs) to guess airborne/ground determination but it can have problems in wave flight.

For a TAB/SIL=1 install you can just set the squat switch setting in the transponder to NONE, and it will be always airborne. For a 2020 Complaint/SIL=3 install, as silly as it may be in gliders, buried in CFR 14 91.227 is the need for air/ground determination and I've been recommending people just use the pressure switch from the TN70/TT22 STC kit that is available for ~$125. The set point of those switches is around 36 knots, and its a simple SPST switch plumbed between pitot and static that is used to ground pin 19? (check the transponder install manual) on the transponder connector. All of Trig's glider dealers should know how to order this kit from EDMO, and hopefully they are pointing this out as well to TN72 purchasers. Some of those glider dealers who make cables are also now including wiring for that squat switch, check with your dealer if buying cables from them. If you are sure you will never fly in wave then you could use the GPS "AUTO" squat switch setting, but transmitting ground status messages when airborne is not good and may get you attention from FSDO folks watching ADS-B performance.

I'm not sure where Trig is at on this, I was hoping they might mention this in documentation, there was some discussion about maybe improving the auto GPS based algorithm. I am not sure any vendor can get this really robust with gliders (not unless you use GPS groundspeed combined with a gear down microswitch... by which time you might as well use the pitot switch), or that the testing and development hassle is worth it. To me a better approach for all involved in gliders is just to bite the bullet and use the airspeed switch if doing a 2020 Compliant install.

With the pressure switch installed and squat switch enabled in the transponder setting turn the transponder to "ALT" and conform that the LCD display then switches from "GND" to "ALT" when the IAS passes roughly mid-high 30's knots.

I'm not sure what exact a "proper" GPS antenna is, and where it is installed? Some folk doing instal are (re)discovering that GPS antenna placement for these installs is critical. I've been warning about that, Andrzej Kobus warns about it in this very thread, and he's been through this before anybody else. Everybody installing a ADS-B Out SIL=3 install needs to be *very* careful with GPS antenna install, give that antenna the best possible placement, treat the GPS antenna install as an experiments and pull FAA ADS-B reports for multiple flights where the glider is banking steeply/thermlling and see if the system looks to be performing acceptably (esp. the NIC parameter reported), and that they have also not got other things mis configured..

Lets move further setup questions to email for now.

[[email protected]]

On Saturday, March 31, 2018 at 4:07:12 PM UTC-5, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> On Saturday, March 31, 2018 at 9:00:38 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> > On Monday, March 12, 2018 at 4:52:08 PM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:
> > > On Monday, March 12, 2018 at 9:57:10 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > > > Ramy,
> > > >
> > > > Can you add a solar cell somewhere or replace lead/acid battery with
> > > > LiFePO4, if not already done?Â* Room for another battery?
> > > >
> > > > While I don't wish to return to the sectional chart with concentric
> > > > circles and a "prayer wheel", it would be nice to have sufficient power
> > > > to drive all these new fangled contraptions.Â* Maybe I should remove the
> > > > espresso machine from my Stemme...Â* Naaah...Â* One needs one's luxuries. ;-)
> > > >
> > > > On 3/11/2018 10:19 PM, Ramy wrote:
> > > > > I noticed smal effect. I suspect my battery last 10% or so less than before.
> > > > >
> > > > > Ramy
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Dan, 5J
> > >
> > > Already have two lifePO4 + solar panel. With all the electronics I have, which includes LX9000, powerflarm, radio, transponder, Dell Streak, and the TN72 addition, my two batteries last around 10 hours which is plenty for most of my flights. If I am running low I can selectively turn off some of the instruments to extend the time. So bottom line, you should have sufficient power even after adding ADS-B.
> > >
> > > Ramy
> >
> > Darryl and Ramy,
> > I just completed installation of the TN72 with proper GPS antenna on my (updated firmware) Trig 22 for my '29. If it's not too much of a hassle, how do you configure the TT22 for ASD-B out? I understand that SIL-3 should be selected in the config screen (I'm EXPERIMENTAL). What else to look for?
> > Thanks,
> > Herb J7
>
> Herb
>
> First, did you install a pitot pressure "squat" switch? The TT21/TT22 can use GPS ground speed (and other inputs) to guess airborne/ground determination but it can have problems in wave flight.
>
> For a TAB/SIL=1 install you can just set the squat switch setting in the transponder to NONE, and it will be always airborne. For a 2020 Complaint/SIL=3 install, as silly as it may be in gliders, buried in CFR 14 91.227 is the need for air/ground determination and I've been recommending people just use the pressure switch from the TN70/TT22 STC kit that is available for ~$125. The set point of those switches is around 36 knots, and its a simple SPST switch plumbed between pitot and static that is used to ground pin 19? (check the transponder install manual) on the transponder connector. All of Trig's glider dealers should know how to order this kit from EDMO, and hopefully they are pointing this out as well to TN72 purchasers. Some of those glider dealers who make cables are also now including wiring for that squat switch, check with your dealer if buying cables from them. If you are sure you will never fly in wave then you could use the GPS "AUTO" squat switch setting, but transmitting ground status messages when airborne is not good and may get you attention from FSDO folks watching ADS-B performance.
>
> I'm not sure where Trig is at on this, I was hoping they might mention this in documentation, there was some discussion about maybe improving the auto GPS based algorithm. I am not sure any vendor can get this really robust with gliders (not unless you use GPS groundspeed combined with a gear down microswitch... by which time you might as well use the pitot switch), or that the testing and development hassle is worth it. To me a better approach for all involved in gliders is just to bite the bullet and use the airspeed switch if doing a 2020 Compliant install.
>
> With the pressure switch installed and squat switch enabled in the transponder setting turn the transponder to "ALT" and conform that the LCD display then switches from "GND" to "ALT" when the IAS passes roughly mid-high 30's knots.
>
> I'm not sure what exact a "proper" GPS antenna is, and where it is installed? Some folk doing instal are (re)discovering that GPS antenna placement for these installs is critical. I've been warning about that, Andrzej Kobus warns about it in this very thread, and he's been through this before anybody else. Everybody installing a ADS-B Out SIL=3 install needs to be *very* careful with GPS antenna install, give that antenna the best possible placement, treat the GPS antenna install as an experiments and pull FAA ADS-B reports for multiple flights where the glider is banking steeply/thermlling and see if the system looks to be performing acceptably (esp. the NIC parameter reported), and that they have also not got other things mis configured..
>
> Lets move further setup questions to email for now.

The squat switch that seems to be necessary for a SIL=3 installation is totally new to me. If I understand correctly, the switch detects if the glider is on the ground or airborne. This seems to be a simple on-off switch connected between pin 19 and ground on the TT22. Well, I have such a switch on my retractable gear which I operate when at around 1000' AGL on tow (part of the gear-warning). Why not use that?
Herb

[Andrzej Kobus]

On Sunday, April 1, 2018 at 12:14:04 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> On Saturday, March 31, 2018 at 4:07:12 PM UTC-5, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > On Saturday, March 31, 2018 at 9:00:38 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> > > On Monday, March 12, 2018 at 4:52:08 PM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:
> > > > On Monday, March 12, 2018 at 9:57:10 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > > > > Ramy,
> > > > >
> > > > > Can you add a solar cell somewhere or replace lead/acid battery with
> > > > > LiFePO4, if not already done?Â* Room for another battery?
> > > > >
> > > > > While I don't wish to return to the sectional chart with concentric
> > > > > circles and a "prayer wheel", it would be nice to have sufficient power
> > > > > to drive all these new fangled contraptions.Â* Maybe I should remove the
> > > > > espresso machine from my Stemme...Â* Naaah...Â* One needs one's luxuries. ;-)
> > > > >
> > > > > On 3/11/2018 10:19 PM, Ramy wrote:
> > > > > > I noticed smal effect. I suspect my battery last 10% or so less than before.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ramy
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Dan, 5J
> > > >
> > > > Already have two lifePO4 + solar panel. With all the electronics I have, which includes LX9000, powerflarm, radio, transponder, Dell Streak, and the TN72 addition, my two batteries last around 10 hours which is plenty for most of my flights. If I am running low I can selectively turn off some of the instruments to extend the time. So bottom line, you should have sufficient power even after adding ADS-B.
> > > >
> > > > Ramy
> > >
> > > Darryl and Ramy,
> > > I just completed installation of the TN72 with proper GPS antenna on my (updated firmware) Trig 22 for my '29. If it's not too much of a hassle, how do you configure the TT22 for ASD-B out? I understand that SIL-3 should be selected in the config screen (I'm EXPERIMENTAL). What else to look for?
> > > Thanks,
> > > Herb J7
> >
> > Herb
> >
> > First, did you install a pitot pressure "squat" switch? The TT21/TT22 can use GPS ground speed (and other inputs) to guess airborne/ground determination but it can have problems in wave flight.
> >
> > For a TAB/SIL=1 install you can just set the squat switch setting in the transponder to NONE, and it will be always airborne. For a 2020 Complaint/SIL=3 install, as silly as it may be in gliders, buried in CFR 14 91.227 is the need for air/ground determination and I've been recommending people just use the pressure switch from the TN70/TT22 STC kit that is available for ~$125. The set point of those switches is around 36 knots, and its a simple SPST switch plumbed between pitot and static that is used to ground pin 19? (check the transponder install manual) on the transponder connector.. All of Trig's glider dealers should know how to order this kit from EDMO, and hopefully they are pointing this out as well to TN72 purchasers. Some of those glider dealers who make cables are also now including wiring for that squat switch, check with your dealer if buying cables from them. If you are sure you will never fly in wave then you could use the GPS "AUTO" squat switch setting, but transmitting ground status messages when airborne is not good and may get you attention from FSDO folks watching ADS-B performance.
> >
> > I'm not sure where Trig is at on this, I was hoping they might mention this in documentation, there was some discussion about maybe improving the auto GPS based algorithm. I am not sure any vendor can get this really robust with gliders (not unless you use GPS groundspeed combined with a gear down microswitch... by which time you might as well use the pitot switch), or that the testing and development hassle is worth it. To me a better approach for all involved in gliders is just to bite the bullet and use the airspeed switch if doing a 2020 Compliant install.
> >
> > With the pressure switch installed and squat switch enabled in the transponder setting turn the transponder to "ALT" and conform that the LCD display then switches from "GND" to "ALT" when the IAS passes roughly mid-high 30's knots.
> >
> > I'm not sure what exact a "proper" GPS antenna is, and where it is installed? Some folk doing instal are (re)discovering that GPS antenna placement for these installs is critical. I've been warning about that, Andrzej Kobus warns about it in this very thread, and he's been through this before anybody else. Everybody installing a ADS-B Out SIL=3 install needs to be *very* careful with GPS antenna install, give that antenna the best possible placement, treat the GPS antenna install as an experiments and pull FAA ADS-B reports for multiple flights where the glider is banking steeply/thermlling and see if the system looks to be performing acceptably (esp. the NIC parameter reported), and that they have also not got other things mis configured..
> >
> > Lets move further setup questions to email for now.
>
> The squat switch that seems to be necessary for a SIL=3 installation is totally new to me. If I understand correctly, the switch detects if the glider is on the ground or airborne. This seems to be a simple on-off switch connected between pin 19 and ground on the TT22. Well, I have such a switch on my retractable gear which I operate when at around 1000' AGL on tow (part of the gear-warning). Why not use that?
> Herb

Please don't create problems for yourself and your fellow pilots. This switch needs to operate as soon as you leave the ground. I would suggest getting the Peregrine STC as a reference and studying it, but even better it is to consult with someone who knows exactly what needs to be done. The switch that is included in the kit works quite well. I was able to order the same switch from one of the electronics distributors, unfortunately I lost the part number. Back when I was doing my installation a kit did not exist.
I am getting worried we are going to have many gliders out there with poorly installed ADS-B out systems causing issues for everyone. As Darryl said installation of the antenna is critical. You might think the system works fine when in fact it will fail as soon as you start 45 deg turns. These systems were not designed for gliders and therefore they need to be installed perfectly in order to work properly. The glider rotates very quickly and with 45 deg bank the antenna/receiver has to be able to keep track of all the satellites and keep switching rapidly. Most GA aircraft and airliners do not do these types of maneuvers. I spent a lot of money experimenting with different solutions starting with $3500 TSO-ed FreeFlight system, only to find out it was based on all circuit design and even perfectly installed it would not work properly in a glider. Please educate yourself before you start, and talk to someone who has properly working system with the same exact components and a similar glider. Use the FAA reports. If you don't get clean reports your system does not work properly. I am not using Trig's receiver so I can't help you, but if there is anyone here who does and has a clear report I would suggest following that person's installation. Lastly, based on my experience some of the TSO-ed antennas, older designs, will simply not work well enough for our purposes. If there are choices opt for the newest designs. I also found that my PF antenna was interfering with proper function of the receiver's antenna.
For others:
In a motor glider with a pylon installation of a GPS receiver antenna presents an additional problem due to the pylon obstructing some of the sky. Please when getting a report make sure you get high enough with pylon out to see if the system works properly, especially if you are far from the ground station.

[Richard Pfiffner[_2_]]

Installing the antenna under the instrument panel cover is not a good idea.

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[Darryl Ramm]

On Sunday, April 1, 2018 at 2:16:01 PM UTC-7, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> Installing the antenna under the instrument panel cover is not a good idea.
>
> Richard
> www.craggyaero.com

I think it depends, what other options there are and what is in the way of a *broad* sky view from the antenna. It may well be the best install option because others might be worse.... like under the turtledeck or an external antenna somewhere on the fuselage (yuk), how good or bad those other options are going to vary a lot by glider.

Possible issues include metal bracing struts, other wires and coax, Flarm antennas, metal instrument panel parts, instruments themselves, and yes maybe even that old chestnut of interference from other GPS antennas. I notice lots of loose wires and cables flopping around under some panels... not a good idea. In some cases a useful test might be to temporarily stick the transponder antenna on top of the instrument glareshield with nothing else near it,... and see if that works OK with a test flight and FAA ADS-B report.. If that does not work then you have zero chance of working with the antenna below the panel.

Lots of behind the panel installs will require having stuff moved around to make the ADS-B GPS antenna the central antenna placed high under the glareshield, with nothing metalic in the way of a *broad* sky view. I hope this is not brain surgery, but it does require going into it with an expectation that a great antenna location/install is required, and you must pull FAA reports to know things are working OK.

2020 Compliance has stringent requirements. NIC=7 (0.2 NM) containment radius may not sound hard, but SIL=3 means < 10^-7 probability of a position report being outside that radius, which makes this a challenging requirement, and requires the GPS antenna has a great broad sky view.

If folks want a quick install and can't get this to work easily with their setup then doing SIL=1 is an option to consider, you lose ATC visibility and ADS-B Out required airspace flight privileges.... and still pull a FAA report to check TABS installs. TABS has a requirement of NIC=6 (0.5 NM containment radius) and SIL=1 (10^-3 probability of being outside that radius). (FAA ADS-B reports will flag NIC=6 and SIL=1 in red, but they are fine for TABS).

And a reminder all the above is for experimental gliders with a TN72 GPS Source, anybody with a certified glider who wants 2020 Compliant ADS-B Out needs their A&P to be installing a TSO-C145c TN70 GPS. Using an STC and sending a "notice only" 337 to FAA HQ.... but hopefully *not* the normal process for a major change field approval. If your A&P is not familiar with doing an ADS-B Out install in a certified aircraft have them contact me, or an A&P or others who have been involved in doing these in gliders.