Electronic declaration

[tango4]

2 questions folks.

1 - How does one declared a free distance task electronically?
Declare takeoff and (possible) landing points only?

2 - If a declaration of any task is made electronically and the logger is
sealed in the glider does the declaration still need to be refreshed every
day to include the date of the flight or will one declaration cover several
days of flying?

I'm thinking of a situation where you are away from OO's for a period.

TIA
Ian

[Eric Greenwell]

tango4 wrote:

> 2 questions folks.
>
> 1 - How does one declared a free distance task electronically?
> Declare takeoff and (possible) landing points only?

No declaration required: tow release would be the start; landing the
finish. A motorglider is a bit different.

>
> 2 - If a declaration of any task is made electronically and the logger is
> sealed in the glider does the declaration still need to be refreshed every
> day to include the date of the flight or will one declaration cover several
> days of flying?

THe declaration has to be made before you take off, and there is no time
limit on how long before. I often have a declaration that is a month or
more old.

> I'm thinking of a situation where you are away from OO's for a period.

You still need witnesses at the start and finish, though in the case of
a distance flight, the witnesses don't necessarily have to see the landing.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

[Ramy Yanetz]

I'll add couple more questions:

1 - How does one electronically declare a task with post declared start and
finish (such as 1000km diploma where the start and finish do not need to be
declared) without the logger automatically assign the first and last
turnpoints as start/finish?
2 - Can a flight considered valid for FAI badges or records if the power is
temporarily interrupted (which results in 2 log files)?

Thanks,

Ramy Yanetz

"Eric Greenwell" > wrote in message
...
> tango4 wrote:
>
> > 2 questions folks.
> >
> > 1 - How does one declared a free distance task electronically?
> > Declare takeoff and (possible) landing points only?
>
> No declaration required: tow release would be the start; landing the
> finish. A motorglider is a bit different.
>
> >
> > 2 - If a declaration of any task is made electronically and the logger
is
> > sealed in the glider does the declaration still need to be refreshed
every
> > day to include the date of the flight or will one declaration cover
several
> > days of flying?
>
> THe declaration has to be made before you take off, and there is no time
> limit on how long before. I often have a declaration that is a month or
> more old.
>
> > I'm thinking of a situation where you are away from OO's for a period.
>
> You still need witnesses at the start and finish, though in the case of
> a distance flight, the witnesses don't necessarily have to see the
landing.
>
> --
> Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
>
> Eric Greenwell
> Washington State
> USA
>

[tango4]

"Ramy Yanetz" > wrote in message
m...
> I'll add couple more questions:
>
> 1 - How does one electronically declare a task with post declared start
and
> finish (such as 1000km diploma where the start and finish do not need to
be
> declared) without the logger automatically assign the first and last
> turnpoints as start/finish?

Can you get a 1000km diploma with a free distance flight? It was my
understanding that Klaus Ohlman has not got a 2000 km diploma because his
flights of 3000 km and more were free distance rather than pre declared.
In 2.1.4 The sporting code states that the badges are awarded for 'distance
flights' of 1000km or more.
A distance flight for badges or for badges and records is defined and must
be declared

> 2 - Can a flight considered valid for FAI badges or records if the power
is
> temporarily interrupted (which results in 2 log files)?
>

Depends! If the finish of 1 logfile and the start of the next are less than
60 seconds apart then I think you can. Not sure beyond that.


Several years ago the IGC rehashed the sporting code section 3 to simplify
it but if you ask me it's still confusing and I consider myself to be at
least of average intelligence.

Ian

> Thanks,
>
> Ramy Yanetz
>
> "Eric Greenwell" > wrote in message
> ...
> > tango4 wrote:
> >
> > > 2 questions folks.
> > >
> > > 1 - How does one declared a free distance task electronically?
> > > Declare takeoff and (possible) landing points only?
> >
> > No declaration required: tow release would be the start; landing the
> > finish. A motorglider is a bit different.
> >
> > >
> > > 2 - If a declaration of any task is made electronically and the logger
> is
> > > sealed in the glider does the declaration still need to be refreshed
> every
> > > day to include the date of the flight or will one declaration cover
> several
> > > days of flying?
> >
> > THe declaration has to be made before you take off, and there is no time
> > limit on how long before. I often have a declaration that is a month or
> > more old.
> >
> > > I'm thinking of a situation where you are away from OO's for a period.
> >
> > You still need witnesses at the start and finish, though in the case of
> > a distance flight, the witnesses don't necessarily have to see the
> landing.
> >
> > --
> > Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
> >
> > Eric Greenwell
> > Washington State
> > USA
> >
>
>

[Tim Newport-Peace]

X-no-archive: yes
In article >, tango4
> writes
>> 2 - Can a flight considered valid for FAI badges or records if the power
>is
>> temporarily interrupted (which results in 2 log files)?
>>
>
>Depends! If the finish of 1 logfile and the start of the next are less than
>60 seconds apart then I think you can. Not sure beyond that.

Flight Recorders that comply with the latest specification will continue
with the recording without creating a new file after a power break of up
to about 5 minutes. I remember that Volkslogger does not do this however
many others do.

It would seem logical that five minutes can elapse between the end of
one file and the start of the next. The figure 60 seconds is the maximum
setting between fixes in normal operation, but does not mean that a
break in power exceeding this but less than five minutes will invalidate
the flight.

Tim Newport-Peace

"Indecision is the Key to Flexibility."

[Eric Greenwell]

tango4 wrote:

> Can you get a 1000km diploma with a free distance flight? It was my
> understanding that Klaus Ohlman has not got a 2000 km diploma because his
> flights of 3000 km and more were free distance rather than pre declared.
> In 2.1.4 The sporting code states that the badges are awarded for 'distance
> flights' of 1000km or more.
> A distance flight for badges or for badges and records is defined and must
> be declared

According to this, a straight distance course is allowed:

1.4.5 Distance performance for badges only
a. STRAIGHT DISTANCE
A flight from a START POINT to a FINISH POINT with no TURN POINTS. No
DECLARATION is required unless a START POINT other than the RELEASE
POINT is used or the FINISH POINT is also to be a GOAL.



--
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Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

[Eric Greenwell]

Ramy Yanetz wrote:

> I'll add couple more questions:
>
> 1 - How does one electronically declare a task with post declared start and
> finish (such as 1000km diploma where the start and finish do not need to be
> declared

No action is required for courses that do not need a declaration. The
start and finish are not "post-declared" but are the release and landing.

> without the logger automatically assign the first and last
> turnpoints as start/finish?

The logger doesn't automatically do anything - it just lists the
turnpoints. You might see some kind of assignment for takeoff and
landing on flight display programs like SeeYou, but that is not the
logger. What logger are you using?


--
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Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

[Ramy Yanetz]

"Eric Greenwell" > wrote in message
...
> Ramy Yanetz wrote:
>
> > I'll add couple more questions:
> >
> > 1 - How does one electronically declare a task with post declared start
and
> > finish (such as 1000km diploma where the start and finish do not need to
be
> > declared
>
> No action is required for courses that do not need a declaration. The
> start and finish are not "post-declared" but are the release and landing.

1000km diploma require declaration of turnpoints only. Start and finish can
indeed be the release and landing.

>
> > without the logger automatically assign the first and last
> > turnpoints as start/finish?
>
> The logger doesn't automatically do anything - it just lists the
> turnpoints. You might see some kind of assignment for takeoff and
> landing on flight display programs like SeeYou, but that is not the
> logger. What logger are you using?
>
I am using winpilot declaration for volkslogger. It automatically assigns
the first turnpoint as start point and the last as finish, so the declared
task distance is much shorter. Will the release/landing still be considered
as start/finish even if other turnpoints are declared as such?

Ramy

[K.P. Termaat]

"Eric Greenwell" > schreef in bericht ...

Snip ..
>The start and finish are not "post-declared" but are the release and landing.
>

Hello Eric,

Do you understand "This course must be declared" in 1.4.5.b. where it also says "The TURN POINTS may be claimed once, in any sequence, or not at all.

Karel, NL

[K.P. Termaat]

"Ramy Yanetz" > schreef in bericht m...

Snip...
> 1000km diploma require declaration of turnpoints only.

1.4.5.b. says "This course must be declared" not "The turnpoints must be declared".

Karel, NL

[Eric Greenwell]

K.P. Termaat wrote:
>
> "Eric Greenwell"
> >> schreef in bericht
> ...
>
> Snip ..
>> The start and finish are not "post-declared" but are the release
>> and
> landing.
>>
> Hello Eric,
>
> Do you understand "This course must be declared" in 1.4.5.b. where it
> also says "The TURN POINTS may be claimed once, in any sequence, or
> not at all.

You snipped too much of my posting. Here it is more of it:

>> 1 - How does one electronically declare a task with post declared
>> start and finish (such as 1000km diploma where the start and finish
>> do not need to be declared
>
>
> No action is required for courses that do not need a declaration. The
> start and finish are not "post-declared" but are the release and
> landing.

1.4.5.b refers to courses with turnpoints, which must be declared. I was
referring to 1.4.5.a when I said "courses that do not need a
declaration". I should have referenced 1.4.5.a to eliminate any
confusion, especially since there is only one course (straight distance)
that doesn't have to be declared for badges. Several undeclared courses
are available for records, which is where my confusion came from.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

[Eric Greenwell]

Ramy Yanetz wrote:

> "Eric Greenwell" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Ramy Yanetz wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I'll add couple more questions:
>>>
>>>1 - How does one electronically declare a task with post declared start
>
> and
>
>>>finish (such as 1000km diploma where the start and finish do not need to
>
> be
>
>>>declared
>>
>>No action is required for courses that do not need a declaration. The
>>start and finish are not "post-declared" but are the release and landing.
>
>
> 1000km diploma require declaration of turnpoints only. Start and finish can
> indeed be the release and landing.
>
>
>>>without the logger automatically assign the first and last
>>>turnpoints as start/finish?
>>
>>The logger doesn't automatically do anything - it just lists the
>>turnpoints. You might see some kind of assignment for takeoff and
>>landing on flight display programs like SeeYou, but that is not the
>>logger. What logger are you using?
>>
>
> I am using winpilot declaration for volkslogger. It automatically assigns
> the first turnpoint as start point and the last as finish, so the declared
> task distance is much shorter. Will the release/landing still be considered
> as start/finish even if other turnpoints are declared as such?

We've exceeded my knowledge of specific logger declaration methods, as
I'm most familiar with the Cambridge units. Is it possible to use
Volkslogger software to declare things differently? Or is there some way
to select "release" and "landing" as part of the declaration, so the
turnpoints don't get used for start/finish? There must be a way, since
release and landing are common features in badge and record flights. As
a workaround, you could use a paper declaration, but that is not very
satisfactory.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

[K.P. Termaat]

Understand what you mean. Confusion is my problem too; it probably bothers
me even more than you at the moment.

I guess in 1.4.5.b it is not necessary either to declare startpoint and
finishpoint, but it may be done (not sure though).
Turnpoints must be declared. Lets say they appear on the declaration sheet
(or in the logger) as A, B and C and in that order.
After take off a pilot decides to go for a task St - C - A - Fin because he
finds promising weather conditions while "en route". He uses declared turn
points in a certain "sequence or not at all" and this is exactly what
1.4.5.b. allows.
Now what about "This course must be decared" ? as the rule states as its
last "informational remark".
Is that post declared or what. I can't see how a course can be
(pre-)declared before the flight when turnpoints may be visited "in any
sequence or not at all".
In my example of three declared turnpoints one can have 22 courses when "in
any sequence or not at all" applies.

Karel, NL (not a lawyer yet)

"Eric Greenwell" > schreef in bericht
...
> K.P. Termaat wrote:
> >
> > "Eric Greenwell"
> > >> schreef in bericht
> > ...
> >
> > Snip ..
> >> The start and finish are not "post-declared" but are the release
> >> and
> > landing.
> >>
> > Hello Eric,
> >
> > Do you understand "This course must be declared" in 1.4.5.b. where it
> > also says "The TURN POINTS may be claimed once, in any sequence, or
> > not at all.
>
> You snipped too much of my posting. Here it is more of it:
>
> >> 1 - How does one electronically declare a task with post declared
> >> start and finish (such as 1000km diploma where the start and finish
> >> do not need to be declared
> >
> >
> > No action is required for courses that do not need a declaration. The
> > start and finish are not "post-declared" but are the release and
> > landing.
>
> 1.4.5.b refers to courses with turnpoints, which must be declared. I was
> referring to 1.4.5.a when I said "courses that do not need a
> declaration". I should have referenced 1.4.5.a to eliminate any
> confusion, especially since there is only one course (straight distance)
> that doesn't have to be declared for badges. Several undeclared courses
> are available for records, which is where my confusion came from.
>
> --
> Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
>
> Eric Greenwell
> Washington State
> USA
>