Minimum number of flights for winch sign off?

[Waveguru]

What would be the consensus for the minimum number of flights to get a ground launch sign off for an experienced glider pilot? How many cable breaks and at what altitude? Of course it would take more for some and less for others, but I would think at least 15 launches with 5 cable breaks at various heights?

Boggs

[MNLou]

Check out the website for Cross Country Soaring in Faribault, MN. Don Ingraham worked with international experts to develop a full blown winch training program.

Lou

[JS[_5_]]

On Tuesday, February 13, 2018 at 6:53:27 AM UTC-8, Waveguru wrote:
> What would be the consensus for the minimum number of flights to get a ground launch sign off for an experienced glider pilot? How many cable breaks and at what altitude? Of course it would take more for some and less for others, but I would think at least 15 launches with 5 cable breaks at various heights?
>
> Boggs

It's a variable.
About like the minimum number of pilot meetings before introducing a gopher snake.
Sorry, perhaps only Boggs, Kempton and a few others understand.
Jim

[son_of_flubber]

On Tuesday, February 13, 2018 at 9:53:27 AM UTC-5, Waveguru wrote:
> What would be the consensus for the minimum number of flights to get a ground launch sign off for an experienced glider pilot?

Having done 'add-on' winch training at two very different locations... I'd say YMMV. There are a lot of site specific and pilot specific variables. Winch, winch driver, crosswind and rotor, field length and width, glider type, etc.. For me, soloing at site 1 was relevant, but not sufficient to solo at site 2. Proficiency faded quickly without the opportunity to winch at my home club. When I eventually visit another winch launch site, I'll repeat the entire training program from square one. The concept of a 'portable winch launch endorsement' is dubious.

Besides 'simulated rope breaks', we did 'simulated, surprise, and gradual loss of power' at one site and not at the other. Very useful scenario.

https://members.gliding.co.uk/bga-safety-management/safe-winching/

I'd strongly recommend winch training to any pilot. There is a strongly positive residual effect that carries over to other flying skills even if you don't have the opportunity to regularly winch at home. Winching sharpens your reflexes, perception of fast changing situations, and mental focus during launch. I was much more on top of aerotowing after doing winch launch training. Aerotowing seems to go in slow motion after you do winch launching.

[Dan Marotta]

Way back in 1987, while on business in Alice Springs, NT, Australia, I
visited the Bond Springs gliding club.Â* I flew a Twin Lark (VH-CQA) off
of a twin drum winch with about a mile of single strand wire for
launches.Â* A review of my logbook reveals 6 launches including 2 cable
breaks with an instructor and then I began giving rides to my co-workers
who wanted to see what a glider flight was about.

On 2/13/2018 7:53 AM, Waveguru wrote:
> What would be the consensus for the minimum number of flights to get a ground launch sign off for an experienced glider pilot? How many cable breaks and at what altitude? Of course it would take more for some and less for others, but I would think at least 15 launches with 5 cable breaks at various heights?
>
> Boggs

--
Dan, 5J

[Dan Marotta]

And to respond to another post about portability of training, that has
got to be related to experience, quality of training, attitude, and
aptitude.

Following initial qualification in Australia, my next experience was in
Colorado when our club acquired a winch.Â* We started off slowly and, as
experience increased, we broadened our use of the winch, using it for
the Women's Soaring Seminar in 1993, IIRC, when we took the winch to an
airport in the mountains (Silverwest, C08).Â* IIRC, at the time the
runway was still dirt, it's since been paved.

Later we took the winch high into Southpark (yes, it's really a place),
where we performed launches at 10,000' MSL.Â* The winch was great fun in
the winter months (when clear of snow) when there wasn't any lift.Â* We'd
simply fly multiple patterns and landings. Eventually the winch fell out
of favor and was put aside, though I hear it's coming back into use.

Other ground launch experience has been a couple of soaring safaris
whereby my then-partner and I took a 1,000' rope and ground launches to
fly straight out to the next destination which was chosen based upon the
current weather.Â* The driver/launcher would take the trailer and follow
along to the next landing spot where we'd spend the night and switch off
the following day.

And finally, there was the Ground Launch Weekend put on by the Las Vegas
Valley Soaring Association at Roach Dry Lake south of Las Vegas, usually
twice per year in April and October.Â* There they use a truck and an
1,800' rope for launching.Â* It has been a great time and great parties
at night.Â* We've attended that gathering three times.

Ground launching is a lot more fun than aero tow and significantly less
expensive.Â* The real advantage to aero tow, IMO, is that the glider can
be taken to the lift.

On 2/13/2018 9:32 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Way back in 1987, while on business in Alice Springs, NT, Australia, I
> visited the Bond Springs gliding club.Â* I flew a Twin Lark (VH-CQA)
> off of a twin drum winch with about a mile of single strand wire for
> launches.Â* A review of my logbook reveals 6 launches including 2 cable
> breaks with an instructor and then I began giving rides to my
> co-workers who wanted to see what a glider flight was about.
>
> On 2/13/2018 7:53 AM, Waveguru wrote:
>> What would be the consensus for the minimum number of flights to get
>> a ground launch sign off for an experienced glider pilot? How many
>> cable breaks and at what altitude? Of course it would take more for
>> some and less for others, but I would think at least 15 launches with
>> 5 cable breaks at various heights?
>>
>> Boggs
>

--
Dan, 5J

[Bruce Hoult]

On Tuesday, February 13, 2018 at 5:53:27 PM UTC+3, Waveguru wrote:
> What would be the consensus for the minimum number of flights to get a ground launch sign off for an experienced glider pilot? How many cable breaks and at what altitude? Of course it would take more for some and less for others, but I would think at least 15 launches with 5 cable breaks at various heights?

I suppose it is hard to generalise, but here is my (rather meagre) winching history.

Prior gliding experience: 64 hours and 118 flights in Blanik, Ka6 and Club Libelle, all aerotow.

1993-05-09: five winch launches in a Ka7

Another 45 hours (111 total) and 60 flights in Blanik, Ka6, ASK13, Club Libelle, Std Libelle, Janus all from aerotow.

1993-12-18: eight winch launches in Ka7, 1st solo
1993-12-19: one winch check flight and one solo in Ka7
1993-12-27: one winch check flight in Ka7, two soaring solos in Ka6

Aerotow flying, taking total time to 220 hours, 296 flights...

2004-01-04: two winch launches (both P2) in Janus, soaring

Aerotow flying, taking total time to 240 hours...

2005-01-05: one winch check flight in ASK13, five solo practice (day was not soarable)

Aerotow flying, taking total time to 400 hours, then a three year gap with no flying at all...

2018-01-07 one winch check flight in DG1000. BFR signed. Instructor's note: one more dual flight before solo DG1000 on winch. (Sadly weather and schedule prevented that)

Probably I'll be back in NZ more permanently in a couple of months, and get a lot more winch experience, as my club has converted entirely from aerotow to winch while I've been in Russia.

[son_of_flubber]

On Tuesday, February 13, 2018 at 11:51:54 AM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
> And to respond to another post about portability of training, that has
> got to be related to experience, quality of training, attitude, and
> aptitude.

Agreed. The field and wind make a big difference as well. Training at a big field does not fully prepare you for this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbQtkLI24dA&t=2s

I agree that simulated rope breaks hone the drop-nose-reflex for breaking a weak link in turbulence.

[Karl Striedieck[_2_]]

From the the five years of winch training, amounting to about 1000 launches (and 52 years of auto launching) at Eagle Field I'd be hard pressed to improve on "Son of Flubber's" response.

But here are some comments anyway.

During the ground school preceeding flying a caveat we emphasize is that launching out of Eagle Field in a Duo with a 330 HP winch will equip the pilot with a good foundation in the technique, but a thorough briefing/checkout is necessary at any other site because it will have different conditions.

Our course consists of a minimum of 10 flights with an emphasis on unexpected launch termination (weak link breaks, etc.) At release the instructor takes over, dives, pulls to 60 degrees nose up and hollers "bang" as the speed winds back through 60 knots. At that point the student buries the stick in the panel until the nose is below the horizon and the total energy situation is assessed. These maneuvers are repeated three or four times on every launch until the student can do it asleep.

The only launch failure we fly is the most critical one - failure just as max nose up attitude is reached - about 150 feet.

There can be a wide variation in a student's aptitude for the training. For German's, Brits, etc. who learned on the winch and are looking for an FAA sign off this flying is a formality. At the other end are pilots not used to pointing "straight up" and need some repetitions to quell the hyperventilating.

And, echoing Flubber's comments about expanding "stickmanship," winch training is an excellent venue to expand a pilot's envelope of comfort with unusual attitudes. Could come in handy some day if they find themselves unexpectantly pointed in the wrong direction.

And these motorless "cat shots" are fun! Beats any Six Flags or Cedar Point ride.

KS

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

Hey Karl, I'm really looking forward to remove my "aero tow only" restriction on my US cert.
Whether at Mifflin (great place to fly) or your field, still worth the price and knowledge.

Hopefully I can, "get my poop compacted" to either one of those.

Hope to see you during the '18 season somewhere.

[Kiwi User]

On Tue, 13 Feb 2018 09:21:00 -0800, son_of_flubber wrote:

Here's another interesting winch site: Edensoaring in the British Lake
District. Its a shortish winch-only site about 2.5km from the closest
soarable part of the Pennines. If the hill is working in a westerly, the
wind is pretty much fully cross-wind and in an easterly the rotor tends
to set up above the field.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcCzolzkYQ8

In a westerly launch failures are unusual because you turn 135 degrees
right, INTO the wind for abbreviated downwind and base legs. Why?
Because there are trees along the east (uphill) side of the strip.



--

[son_of_flubber]

The Eden site is interesting, but I did not post anything about it.

I hear that there is winch launching site on the North Island in New Zealand that routinely does 2000+ winch launches that drop you into rotor. You use the rotor to climb into wave. I'd want to ease into that with a local CFI before soloing.

[Kiwi User]

On Tue, 13 Feb 2018 13:24:52 -0800, son_of_flubber wrote:

> The Eden site is interesting, but I did not post anything about it.
>
Yep, I know you didn't - and nor has anybody else recently. I've visited
it a couple of times and posted the vid link because its a different
place to fly and a reasonably challenging winch site for me too: on my
last visit I got the mandatory site check ride and a winch failure
despite having been there before, because that was three years previously.

I fly in flat east England, usually winching off a 1300m x 175m grass
runway. We have GR400 Robins as tow planes but I prefer winching.

> I hear that there is winch launching site on the North Island in New
> Zealand that routinely does 2000+ winch launches that drop you into
> rotor. You use the rotor to climb into wave. I'd want to ease into
> that with a local CFI before soloing.
>
Yes, I know where that is, but haven't flown from it. I visited that club
in 2003, before they left Paraparaumu, a multiple use airfield surrounded
by houses and aero-tow only. That was where I flew a PW-5 (my only flight
in one) and had my first flight in a Libelle.


--

[SF]

If things go wrong on the winch, they go wrong really fast. Suggest some refresher training if any of the following change: winch, aircraft, location.. The exact number of flights required to sign off depends on the student and the instructor. Ground school component is really important in winch launch training.

[Nick Kennedy]

At 3:40 on that Eden soaring vid, they are going into land. My question is how do you find the airfield? Everything looks exactly alike!

[b4soaring]

On Tuesday, 13 February 2018 14:53:27 UTC, Waveguru wrote:
> What would be the consensus for the minimum number of flights to get a ground launch sign off for an experienced glider pilot? How many cable breaks and at what altitude? Of course it would take more for some and less for others, but I would think at least 15 launches with 5 cable breaks at various heights?
>
> Boggs

Basic principles of instruction:
-- ground briefing
-- instructor demonstration
-- student attempt

Winch launch failure instruction:
-- full climb, low level, land ahead
-- full climb, higher up, can't land ahead
-- full climb, random height, gradual power failure

That's a minimum of 6 launch failures. Where I'm from we also do an initial climb launch failure (pre full climb), instructor demo only (more training accidents than real accidents.) So that's an absolute minimum of 7 instructional launch failures.

The good news is that winch launching is really easy, easier than aerotowing. A competent pilot will learn to winch launch in 4 or 5 flights, so your 15 launch suggestion is do-able, but I would include more launch failures. For ab initio training we do a lot more launch failures before and after solo, just to reinforce the "expect a launch failure every launch" mindset.

Currency is very important. The shape of the airfield will also affect safety, a nice big round grass airfield will be very different to a commercial airfield.

[Frank Whiteley]

On Tuesday, February 13, 2018 at 8:36:27 PM UTC-7, Nick Kennedy wrote:
> At 3:40 on that Eden soaring vid, they are going into land. My question is how do you find the airfield? Everything looks exactly alike!

My first glider club in the UK was hard to find. Pilots told us they never saw it after overflying the area. One member got lost over the top and landed in an adjacent field. 800yard turf main and 600yard turf cross in the middle of barley fields. There were 50ft white chalk circles at the ends of the runways that sort of worked. Returning home from cross countries, we'd just follow the Peterborough to Colchester Roman road (only straight line around) until we could see Hadleigh over the nose. The gliderport would then be off the port wing. Local knowledge was pretty useful.

Frank Whiteley

[Frank Whiteley]

On Tuesday, February 13, 2018 at 8:42:33 PM UTC-7, b4soaring wrote:
> On Tuesday, 13 February 2018 14:53:27 UTC, Waveguru wrote:
> > What would be the consensus for the minimum number of flights to get a ground launch sign off for an experienced glider pilot? How many cable breaks and at what altitude? Of course it would take more for some and less for others, but I would think at least 15 launches with 5 cable breaks at various heights?
> >
> > Boggs
>
> Basic principles of instruction:
> -- ground briefing
> -- instructor demonstration
> -- student attempt
>
> Winch launch failure instruction:
> -- full climb, low level, land ahead
> -- full climb, higher up, can't land ahead
> -- full climb, random height, gradual power failure
>
> That's a minimum of 6 launch failures. Where I'm from we also do an initial climb launch failure (pre full climb), instructor demo only (more training accidents than real accidents.) So that's an absolute minimum of 7 instructional launch failures.
>
> The good news is that winch launching is really easy, easier than aerotowing. A competent pilot will learn to winch launch in 4 or 5 flights, so your 15 launch suggestion is do-able, but I would include more launch failures.. For ab initio training we do a lot more launch failures before and after solo, just to reinforce the "expect a launch failure every launch" mindset.
>
> Currency is very important. The shape of the airfield will also affect safety, a nice big round grass airfield will be very different to a commercial airfield.

I PM'D Gary at first. I agree with the above, though I would suggest that about 20 is the right number. Before emergencies, 5-6 'normal' launches so that the pilot understands what they are trying to achieve consistently. Then work on the 'breaks' and post break options and gotchas. Then a few more consistency checks and speed up, slow down signalling. Wing rock is deprecated. These exercises also keep winch drivers on their toes. I can often tell from the winch who is flying the two-seaters by the way they rotate and their climb attitude to 400-500 feet.

Frank Whiteley

[Bruce Hoult]

On Wednesday, February 14, 2018 at 8:33:19 AM UTC+3, Frank Whiteley wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 13, 2018 at 8:36:27 PM UTC-7, Nick Kennedy wrote:
> > At 3:40 on that Eden soaring vid, they are going into land. My question is how do you find the airfield? Everything looks exactly alike!
>
> My first glider club in the UK was hard to find. Pilots told us they never saw it after overflying the area. One member got lost over the top and landed in an adjacent field. 800yard turf main and 600yard turf cross in the middle of barley fields. There were 50ft white chalk circles at the ends of the runways that sort of worked. Returning home from cross countries, we'd just follow the Peterborough to Colchester Roman road (only straight line around) until we could see Hadleigh over the nose. The gliderport would then be off the port wing. Local knowledge was pretty useful.

Wellington Gliding Club has always been pretty easy to find!

Old site (50+ years until 2016):
1) locate Kapiti Island, 9 km x 2 km x 1700 ft high, 5 km offshore from a small peninsular/bump in the coast.
2) the airfield is 1 km inland, in the middle of the bump.

New site (since 2016):
1) locate an apple orchid covered by bright white plastic, roughly a triangle with sides 1 km, 1 km, 1.5 km. Easily visible from 50+ km away.
2) 500m SE is a river. The main runway is next to the river, extending 2 km to the NE to a 90 degree bend in the river. Another river joins near opposite the midpoint of the runway.

,8031m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en

[Frank Whiteley]

On Tuesday, February 13, 2018 at 10:45:18 PM UTC-7, Frank Whiteley wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 13, 2018 at 8:42:33 PM UTC-7, b4soaring wrote:
> > On Tuesday, 13 February 2018 14:53:27 UTC, Waveguru wrote:
> > > What would be the consensus for the minimum number of flights to get a ground launch sign off for an experienced glider pilot? How many cable breaks and at what altitude? Of course it would take more for some and less for others, but I would think at least 15 launches with 5 cable breaks at various heights?
> > >
> > > Boggs
> >
> > Basic principles of instruction:
> > -- ground briefing
> > -- instructor demonstration
> > -- student attempt
> >
> > Winch launch failure instruction:
> > -- full climb, low level, land ahead
> > -- full climb, higher up, can't land ahead
> > -- full climb, random height, gradual power failure
> >
> > That's a minimum of 6 launch failures. Where I'm from we also do an initial climb launch failure (pre full climb), instructor demo only (more training accidents than real accidents.) So that's an absolute minimum of 7 instructional launch failures.
> >
> > The good news is that winch launching is really easy, easier than aerotowing. A competent pilot will learn to winch launch in 4 or 5 flights, so your 15 launch suggestion is do-able, but I would include more launch failures. For ab initio training we do a lot more launch failures before and after solo, just to reinforce the "expect a launch failure every launch" mindset.

[Frank Whiteley]

On Wednesday, February 14, 2018 at 12:03:54 AM UTC-7, Frank Whiteley wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 13, 2018 at 10:45:18 PM UTC-7, Frank Whiteley wrote:
> > On Tuesday, February 13, 2018 at 8:42:33 PM UTC-7, b4soaring wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, 13 February 2018 14:53:27 UTC, Waveguru wrote:
> > > > What would be the consensus for the minimum number of flights to get a ground launch sign off for an experienced glider pilot? How many cable breaks and at what altitude? Of course it would take more for some and less for others, but I would think at least 15 launches with 5 cable breaks at various heights?
> > > >
> > > > Boggs
> > >
> > > Basic principles of instruction:
> > > -- ground briefing
> > > -- instructor demonstration
> > > -- student attempt
> > >
> > > Winch launch failure instruction:
> > > -- full climb, low level, land ahead
> > > -- full climb, higher up, can't land ahead
> > > -- full climb, random height, gradual power failure
> > >
> > > That's a minimum of 6 launch failures. Where I'm from we also do an initial climb launch failure (pre full climb), instructor demo only (more training accidents than real accidents.) So that's an absolute minimum of 7 instructional launch failures.
> > >
> > > The good news is that winch launching is really easy, easier than aerotowing. A competent pilot will learn to winch launch in 4 or 5 flights, so your 15 launch suggestion is do-able, but I would include more launch failures. For ab initio training we do a lot more launch failures before and after solo, just to reinforce the "expect a launch failure every launch" mindset.
> > >
> > > Currency is very important. The shape of the airfield will also affect safety, a nice big round grass airfield will be very different to a commercial airfield.
> >
> > I PM'D Gary at first. I agree with the above, though I would suggest that about 20 is the right number. Before emergencies, 5-6 'normal' launches so that the pilot understands what they are trying to achieve consistently. Then work on the 'breaks' and post break options and gotchas. Then a few more consistency checks and speed up, slow down signalling. Wing rock is deprecated. These exercises also keep winch drivers on their toes. I can often tell from the winch who is flying the two-seaters by the way they rotate and their climb attitude to 400-500 feet.
> >
> > Frank Whiteley
>
> Club syllabus. Needs some minor revision. We used flags but now use airband radios on our licensed frequency.
>
> http://www.soarcsa.org/index.php?page=training Documents.
>
> http://www.soarcsa.org/uploads/file/ops-and-training/CSAWinchTrainingSyllabus.pdf
>
> http://www.soarcsa.org/index.php?page=winch-operations
>
> You are welcome to borrow, adapt, or critique any of the above.
>
> Frank Whiteley


Winch procedures manual referred to above.

http://www.soarcsa.org/uploads/file/ops-and-training/CSAWinchManual.pdf

[Kiwi User]

On Tue, 13 Feb 2018 21:33:16 -0800, Frank Whiteley wrote:

> Local knowledge was pretty useful.
>
Exactly.

There's a fairly recognisable lake 2km or so south and roughly in line
with the runway and the buildings of Skelling farm stand out well, just
west of the southern end. Coming from the closest point on the hill, the
line of trees on the east side of the runway is easier to see in real
life than in the video, and in any case trailers near one end of the
trees and gliders at the launch point generally stand out well.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[Charles Longley]

Just don’t do winch launches.

Let’s see you’re going to attach me to the ground with some homemade contraption? Who knows what the operators qualifications are. No thanks!

[[email protected]]

"Just don’t do winch launches"

What a short-sighted view. The economics of gliding are already keeping new members from joining the sport - and will just get worse in the future. Winch launching is a cost-effective launch method which can effectively launch gliders at a 1/10 of the cost of aerotowing. This is a major factor especially during the training phase where launches and landing are the critical skills for new pilots to learn. With proper training, winch launching should be no more dangerous than aerotowing.

[Charles Longley]

To each his own. You’ll never see me on a winch tow.

[[email protected]]

I used to think that, overcoming my fear made me a much better pilot, took about 6 training flights, plus a couple of simulated cable breaks.i learnt to fly much better highly modified circuits too.
Only time I would be reluctant to winch is in calm conditions with full water.

[[email protected]]

On Friday, February 16, 2018 at 12:16:31 AM UTC-5, Charles Longley wrote:
> To each his own. You’ll never see me on a winch tow.

Never mind the money, winch launching is fun.

[[email protected]]

Quoted text
"Let’s see you’re going to attach me to the ground with some homemade contraption? Who knows what the operators qualifications are. No thanks!"

PROBABLY A WISE CHOICE FOR SOMEONE WHO IS INTIMIDATED BY GROUND LAUNCHING. BTW. THERE ARE MANY, MANY MORE, SAFE WINCH THAN AEROTOWS DAILY AND YEARLY WORLD WIDE BASIS. SOME GLIDERPORTS DOING HUNDREDS PER DAY AND NOTMTO MENTION THE RESULTING MORE COMPETENT AND EXPERIENCED PILOTS, ESPECIALLY AT LOW ALTITUDES AND VARIETY OF CIRCUITS.

[Kiwi User]

On Fri, 16 Feb 2018 03:59:27 -0800, davidlawley wrote:

> I used to think that, overcoming my fear made me a much better pilot,
> took about 6 training flights, plus a couple of simulated cable breaks.i
> learnt to fly much better highly modified circuits too.
> Only time I would be reluctant to winch is in calm conditions with full
> water.

To put numbers on winch training, I soloed on my 79th launch, taking most
of one summer season, flying only on weekends and a bit under 17 hours
air time, flying a mix of ASK-21, G103 and Puchacz. I think the higher
number of launches to solo compared with aerotows is a positive benefit,
simply because students have flown a larger number of landings by the
time they solo.

The rule of thumb we use for ab initio winch training is that the number
of flights to solo is your age in years plus 30: I was in my early 50s at
the time.



--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[Charles Longley]

On Friday, February 16, 2018 at 7:07:05 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> Quoted text
> "Let’s see you’re going to attach me to the ground with some homemade contraption? Who knows what the operators qualifications are. No thanks!"
>
> PROBABLY A WISE CHOICE FOR SOMEONE WHO IS INTIMIDATED BY GROUND LAUNCHING.. BTW. THERE ARE MANY, MANY MORE, SAFE WINCH THAN AEROTOWS DAILY AND YEARLY WORLD WIDE BASIS. SOME GLIDERPORTS DOING HUNDREDS PER DAY AND NOTMTO MENTION THE RESULTING MORE COMPETENT AND EXPERIENCED PILOTS, ESPECIALLY AT LOW ALTITUDES AND VARIETY OF CIRCUITS.

Wow I guess it helps to make your point to go to all CAPS. With 40 years and 20,000+ hours I am not intimidated by much in aviation. Certainly not winch launching. I do choose to manage my risk however. I’ve seen some of the lash ups used for winch launches and I know how it goes at a gliderport. Everyone’s eager to go who knows what the ability of the winch operator is. At least with a tow plane there’s some basic certification on the equipment and operator.

[kirk.stant]

On Friday, February 16, 2018 at 8:11:22 AM UTC-6, Charles Longley wrote:

> Wow I guess it helps to make your point to go to all CAPS. With 40 years and 20,000+ hours I am not intimidated by much in aviation. Certainly not winch launching. I do choose to manage my risk however. I’ve seen some of the lash ups used for winch launches and I know how it goes at a gliderport. Everyone’s eager to go who knows what the ability of the winch operator is. At least with a tow plane there’s some basic certification on the equipment and operator.

Airline pilot?

Any winch launching experience at all to justify your position or are you just going by your "experience".

Funny, I get he same response from otherwise rational pilots when I suggest that our club teach aerobatics in our K-21 or Blanik L-13AC (the one with the short wings, made for acro). "That's dangerous, people will crash, no one in their right minds want to do acro"... or the best: "I personally enjoy acro, but you can't trust all those other idiots - they'll go out and do something stupid."

Kirk
66
(Tow pilot, ground launch endorsed, trained in acro and love it)

[Dan Marotta]

"Fly without an engine?!?!?Â* I like to have an engine up front!" How
many times have I heard that?

Some people don't like roller coasters, either.Â* They also miss out on a
lot of fun.

On 2/16/2018 9:46 AM, kirk.stant wrote:
> On Friday, February 16, 2018 at 8:11:22 AM UTC-6, Charles Longley wrote:
>
>> Wow I guess it helps to make your point to go to all CAPS. With 40 years and 20,000+ hours I am not intimidated by much in aviation. Certainly not winch launching. I do choose to manage my risk however. I’ve seen some of the lash ups used for winch launches and I know how it goes at a gliderport. Everyone’s eager to go who knows what the ability of the winch operator is. At least with a tow plane there’s some basic certification on the equipment and operator.
> Airline pilot?
>
> Any winch launching experience at all to justify your position or are you just going by your "experience".
>
> Funny, I get he same response from otherwise rational pilots when I suggest that our club teach aerobatics in our K-21 or Blanik L-13AC (the one with the short wings, made for acro). "That's dangerous, people will crash, no one in their right minds want to do acro"... or the best: "I personally enjoy acro, but you can't trust all those other idiots - they'll go out and do something stupid."
>
> Kirk
> 66
> (Tow pilot, ground launch endorsed, trained in acro and love it)

--
Dan, 5J

[Charles Longley]

Correct airline pilot also A&P/ IA.

I don’t have an issue with winch tows persay other then the relatively low altitude they get you to. Wouldn’t really work where I am at.

The issue I have is the typical lash up they have in the US and the qualification of the winch operator not to mention the maintenance of the winch.

[Ventus_a]

On Friday, February 16, 2018 at 7:07:05 AM UTC-5, wrote:
Quoted text
"Let’s see you’re going to attach me to the ground with some homemade contraption? Who knows what the operators qualifications are. No thanks!"

PROBABLY A WISE CHOICE FOR SOMEONE WHO IS INTIMIDATED BY GROUND LAUNCHING.. BTW. THERE ARE MANY, MANY MORE, SAFE WINCH THAN AEROTOWS DAILY AND YEARLY WORLD WIDE BASIS. SOME GLIDERPORTS DOING HUNDREDS PER DAY AND NOTMTO MENTION THE RESULTING MORE COMPETENT AND EXPERIENCED PILOTS, ESPECIALLY AT LOW ALTITUDES AND VARIETY OF CIRCUITS.

Wow I guess it helps to make your point to go to all CAPS. With 40 years and 20,000+ hours I am not intimidated by much in aviation. Certainly not winch launching. I do choose to manage my risk however. I’ve seen some of the lash ups used for winch launches and I know how it goes at a gliderport. Everyone’s eager to go who knows what the ability of the winch operator is. At least with a tow plane there’s some basic certification on the equipment and operator.

And here's the thing, there are some towpilots I won't fly behind as they are just as dodgy as some of the winch setups you've seen.

All said and done, I aerotow more than I winch launch and will at times take neither and stay on the ground as the quality of the operator (winch driver/towpilot) doesn't inspire confidence.

YMMV
:-) Colin

[son_of_flubber]

On Friday, February 16, 2018 at 8:33:47 AM UTC-5, Kiwi User wrote:

> The rule of thumb we use for ab initio winch training is that the number
> of flights to solo is your age in years plus 30: I was in my early 50s at
> the time.

Aerotow experience is a factor. My anecdotal data point.

Age 62, 250 prior aerotows, I soloed on winch after 28 launches spread over six weeks. I'm not a 'natural pilot'. This was a very relaxed pace. I was in no hurry to solo, and there was excess CFI and glider capacity, and so it was an absolutely no pressure situation.

WRT safety. Concerns about winch mechanical quality, instructor expertise, and winch driver expertise are legit and need to be carefully evaluated on a case-by-case basis. Same deal with the aerotow operations that we normalize.

Winch launching has made me safer on aerotows and overall increased my life expectancy:

1)In case of an aerotow rope break, the trained reflex to push the nose down to recover airspeed before turning carries over from winch to aerotow. I think winch training makes me less likely to spin during the 360 turn off an aerotow rope break. Doing 5-10 'simulated rope breaks' on the winch over a few weeks trains that reflex much better than doing the one 'actual rope break' typical of aerotowing training. Karl S.'s 'zoomie' training exercise (see his description above) might be worthwhile for aerotow training. I'm much more confident about aerotow rope breaks after completing winch training.

2)Winch training is largely about landing from a variety of altitudes, positions and attitudes. It is a great cost effective opportunity to 'tune up' your landing (and outlandings if you winch train at Eagle Field).

3)Winching is FUN. It is part of my recurrent training plan even though I have to travel away from my home area to do it.

[Dave Nadler]

On Friday, February 16, 2018 at 6:30:22 PM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:
>... training makes me less likely to spin during
> the 360 turn off an aerotow rope break.

Why are you going to do a 360???

[son_of_flubber]

On Friday, February 16, 2018 at 9:07:39 PM UTC-5, Dave Nadler wrote:
> On Friday, February 16, 2018 at 6:30:22 PM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:
> >... training makes me less likely to spin during
> > the 360 turn off an aerotow rope break.
>
> Why are you going to do a 360???

Meant 180

[[email protected]]

While writing our training text for our winch endorsement program and looking ahead at new student training we began with many of the same ideas in mind regarding launch failures as stated here. In doing some research we discovered that most accidents originate from this launch failure training. Of course we can't stick our heads in the sand, but maybe there are better ways to train for these failures? Any one who's winched will agree that it's the sudden change in tasks that screws the accident pilot up. With out a well thought plan in mind it's easy to screw up at low altitude following a failure. The zero time student may be at an advantage here. They need dozens of launches to solo and will have more experience generally flying at these lower altitudes than their endorsement counterpart. This is because they will make use of their energy to complete a few turns and even grab a thermal once in a while as part of their training before entering the pattern instead of racing back for the next launch. Consider power pilot training, before flying traffic patterns we fly ground reference maneuvers before countless take offs and landings. But do we pull engines on multi engine students at 50 feet? Do we practice spin recovery at traffic pattern altitude? Winch training could be done with a similar philosophy. The push overs described by Karl are a great example of gaining one of the needed skill sets at a safe altitude. Additionally, an instructor may brief a maneuver to be flown from a prescribed height, say 200, or 400 agl to over fly the runway and fly an abbreviated pattern or land straight ahead. This gives the student the needed experience when the are mentaly ready to take in the information, rather than going "bang" you're at 200 agl! Real Simulated low level failures should still be taught but maybe doing six of them or more isnt needed if the student has other (better) experience at low altitudes and is an unnecessary risk. The BGA and DAeC spent a lot of time and effort looking into this, let's take their advice.
I agree with all of the launch numbers and advice mentioned above about site specific training, aircraft check out and changing weather. I even agree with the Troll above about maintaining the winch and having proper winch operator training and checkout procedures.
On a side note it's a shame in the USA we need to scrape together this type of information. The BGA and DAeC have done an excellent job of caring for their constituents. Each year in the past 5 about 2 new winch operations have started up with more on the way. I strongly recommend modeling your entire winch program after one of these industry leaders rather than making it up based on bits and pieces gathered around to fit your preconceptions. That method has been done to death here in the States...

-Doug

[kirk.stant]

On Friday, February 16, 2018 at 2:44:58 PM UTC-6, Charles Longley wrote:
> Correct airline pilot also A&P/ IA.
>
> I don’t have an issue with winch tows persay other then the relatively low altitude they get you to. Wouldn’t really work where I am at.
>
> The issue I have is the typical lash up they have in the US and the qualification of the winch operator not to mention the maintenance of the winch.

Ok. Sorry I probably came off as a bit of a dick - not intended; but I do find that aviation background seems to have a lot to do with perceived risk/reward in soaring.

I come from a military fighter background - having learned to fly in High School, so tend to see the risks in soaring from a very different perspective. Edge of the envelope is what it is all about, by it's very nature, and that is why it appeals to me; skill, currency, knowledge, training, all need to be up to the task.

Just like most power pilots will say "why would anyone fly without an engine - that's nuts!", without any winch experience the natural response from someone trained in a highly structured, "middle of the envelope" flying environment" would be "that looks dangerous, what if the winch quits or fails in some way. But the non-intuitive answer is that during a winch launch, the pilot is totally in control of the safety of the launch at all times, and can always make a safe landing! Too slow - release and land straight ahead.. Too fast, dump the nose or release. Cable break, dump the nose and land. Erratic launch by a weak winch or new operator - release and land.

OTOH - aero tows can develop into an unsafe situation without the glider pilot being able to do much about it: loss of power right after takeoff over unlandable terrain; tow pilot determined to take you downwind in a 2-33; slow tow when you are ballasted to the max, etc...

Then there are the ways glider pilots try to kill tow pilots! Hard to hurt a winch launch operator unless you crash on the winch.

Kirk
66

[Dan Marotta]

On 2/17/2018 9:35 AM, kirk.stant wrote:
> Just like most power pilots will say "why would anyone fly without an engine - that's nuts!"
That was my exact response when offered a flight in a glider.Â* But I
took the flight anyway.Â* And five more and soloed.Â* I haven't looked
back since.
--
Dan, 5J

[Dan Daly[_2_]]

> I come from a military fighter background - having learned to fly in High School, so tend to see the risks in soaring from a very different perspective. Edge of the envelope is what it is all about, by it's very nature, and that is why it appeals to me; skill, currency, knowledge, training, all need to be up to the task.
>
> Just like most power pilots will say "why would anyone fly without an engine - that's nuts!", without any winch experience the natural response from someone trained in a highly structured, "middle of the envelope" flying environment" would be "that looks dangerous, what if the winch quits or fails in some way. But the non-intuitive answer is that during a winch launch, the pilot is totally in control of the safety of the launch at all times, and can always make a safe landing! Too slow - release and land straight ahead. Too fast, dump the nose or release. Cable break, dump the nose and land. Erratic launch by a weak winch or new operator - release and land.
>

>
> Kirk
> 66

You may want to revisit your immediate actions in the event of "...Too fast, dump the nose or release..." to something like, signal too fast or release...

Dan
2D

[kirk.stant]

On Saturday, February 17, 2018 at 2:39:26 PM UTC-6, Dan Daly wrote:

> You may want to revisit your immediate actions in the event of "...Too fast, dump the nose or release..." to something like, signal too fast or release...
>
> Dan
> 2D

You are correct, of course. I was trying to point out that a winch launch provides many options for solving a problem which may not be obvious to someone who has not tried it.

Cheers,

Kirk
66

[Ventus_a]

On Friday, February 16, 2018 at 2:44:58 PM UTC-6, Charles Longley wrote:[color=blue][i]
Correct airline pilot also A&P/ IA.
snip

Then there are the ways glider pilots try to kill tow pilots! Hard to hurt a winch launch operator unless you crash on the winch.

Kirk
66

I appreciate the fact that the tow pilot has his ass on the line when towing gliders aloft and that figures high in my respect for the job they do. It's entirely possible for a winch driver to kill a glider pilot without breaking a sweat or being in danger himself.

As posted earlier I only launch with tow pilots or winch drivers that I feel I can trust with my neck

:-) Colin

[[email protected]]

On Friday, 16 February 2018 02:38:18 UTC, Charles Longley wrote:
> Just don’t do winch launches.
>
> Let’s see you’re going to attach me to the ground with some homemade contraption? Who knows what the operators qualifications are. No thanks!

Here in the UK all the winches I've seen at gliding sites are a professional product, usually a Skylaunch. The drivers have to be trained and signed off. Many sites - not just the biggest ones - have professional drivers. In the time I've been flying at a mainly winch site we have had one potentially fatal aerotow accident (tug upset) and one fatal winch launch accident.. Since we do far more winch and aerotow launches I think the conclusion is obvious - winch launching done properly is as safe as aerotows.

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

With all due respect Sally, I submit your conclusion is not statistically valid nor is your method of analysis. Sorry, the engineer in me sometimes comes out.

Just by the data you suggest, winch launching is safer as you have had the same number of fatals with much more launches done by the winch. In practice this is not true and the BGA has some great pamphlets on both winch launch and aero-tow.



On Friday, February 23, 2018 at 11:51:01 AM UTC-8, Sally Woolrich wrote:
> On Friday, 16 February 2018 02:38:18 UTC, Charles Longley wrote:
> > Just don’t do winch launches.
> >
> > Let’s see you’re going to attach me to the ground with some homemade contraption? Who knows what the operators qualifications are. No thanks!
>
> Here in the UK all the winches I've seen at gliding sites are a professional product, usually a Skylaunch. The drivers have to be trained and signed off. Many sites - not just the biggest ones - have professional drivers. In the time I've been flying at a mainly winch site we have had one potentially fatal aerotow accident (tug upset) and one fatal winch launch accident. Since we do far more winch and aerotow launches I think the conclusion is obvious - winch launching done properly is as safe as aerotows.