Notes from a Small Island - 1015K in UK.

[Gav Goudie]

Friday was a great day to avoid work in the UK:

http://uras.gliderpilot.net/?db=uras&op=s2&id=19890&kw=

800Km Triangle record was also broken, and a Nimbus
3D completed a declared goal of Aboyne (Scotland) to
Lasham, (Hampshire).

Thats why we go gliding!

GG

[tango4]

Yup! It was a pretty good day in the UK yesterday.

Ian

[David Starer]

You can see and download Ed Downham's 800 km trace here:

http://www2.onlinecontest.org/olcphp/2004/ausw_fluginfo.php?ref3=130673&ueb=N&olc=olc-uk&spr=en&dclp=78eaa44d074cc4f0a087c03740364cc8

David Starer


"Gav Goudie" > wrote in message
...
> Friday was a great day to avoid work in the UK:
>
> http://uras.gliderpilot.net/?db=uras&op=s2&id=19890&kw=
>
> 800Km Triangle record was also broken, and a Nimbus
> 3D completed a declared goal of Aboyne (Scotland) to
> Lasham, (Hampshire).
>
> Thats why we go gliding!
>
> GG
>
>
>
>
>

[Ian Johnston]

On Sat, 26 Jun 2004 07:04:23 UTC, Gav Goudie
> wrote:

: Nimbus
: 3D completed a declared goal of Aboyne (Scotland) to
: Lasham, (Hampshire).

Does that mean that some rotten, unspeakable cad has taken Goodhart's
Lasham to Portmoak record? If so, I am really disappointed - sorry
guys, but doing it in a Skylark 3 is much, much, much, much more of an
achievement than using a Nimbus 3D.

Seriously, I hope they have the decency not to claim the record.

Ian


--

[Martin Gregorie]

On 27 Jun 2004 15:04:23 GMT, "Ian Johnston"
> wrote:

>On Sat, 26 Jun 2004 07:04:23 UTC, Gav Goudie
> wrote:
>
>: Nimbus
>: 3D completed a declared goal of Aboyne (Scotland) to
>: Lasham, (Hampshire).
>
>Does that mean that some rotten, unspeakable cad has taken Goodhart's
>Lasham to Portmoak record? If so, I am really disappointed - sorry
>guys, but doing it in a Skylark 3 is much, much, much, much more of an
>achievement than using a Nimbus 3D.
>
>Seriously, I hope they have the decency not to claim the record.
>

There's a nice short description of their flight on the Lasham
website, http://www.lasham.org.uk/ for our foreign friends.
Looks like they can claim the distance record but were slower than the
Skylark.

--
martin@ : Martin Gregorie
gregorie : Harlow, UK
demon :
co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
uk :

[Walter Kahn]

Mr. Johnson has got it wrong yet again - I assume that Gordon and his
co-pilot will have difficulty in claiming Nick Goodhart's record as his
is the single seater goal flight record which, of course, still stands.

Incidentally Nick also remains the current World Gliding Two-seater
Champion. It has been reported that some people are keen to revive this
class again.

Well done Gordon, Nimbus or whatever, well done all the guys who did
great things on Super Friday. When you consider that Gordon was towed
off at 0345 and one of the Lasham pilots completed his 750k and landed
back at Lasham at 2130 - it was one hell of a day!
Wally Kahn
In article <cCUlhtvFIYkV-pn2-moYD917P3KBb@localhost>, Ian Johnston
> writes
>On Sat, 26 Jun 2004 07:04:23 UTC, Gav Goudie
> wrote:
>
>: Nimbus
>: 3D completed a declared goal of Aboyne (Scotland) to
>: Lasham, (Hampshire).
>
>Does that mean that some rotten, unspeakable cad has taken Goodhart's
>Lasham to Portmoak record? If so, I am really disappointed - sorry
>guys, but doing it in a Skylark 3 is much, much, much, much more of an
>achievement than using a Nimbus 3D.
>
>Seriously, I hope they have the decency not to claim the record.
>
>Ian
>
>

--
Walter Kahn

[Ian Johnston]

On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 21:45:35 UTC, Walter Kahn
> wrote:

: Mr. Johnson has got it wrong yet again - I assume that Gordon and his
: co-pilot will have difficulty in claiming Nick Goodhart's record as his
: is the single seater goal flight record which, of course, still stands.

Well, ignoring that snotty little "again", thanks for pointing that
out.

I really do hope that nobody tries to take the Goodhart record - or at
least, not without a flight of equal impressiveness.

Ian

[tango4]

Records are there to be broken.

Ian

"Ian Johnston" > wrote in message
news:cCUlhtvFIYkV-pn2-67b2oITd8NFz@localhost...
>
> I really do hope that nobody tries to take the Goodhart record - or at
> least, not without a flight of equal impressiveness.
>
> Ian

[Chris Rollings]

Wally,

Regretably, Mr Johnson is right. There are no longer
any such things as single seat, two seat or motor glider
records - just Open Class, 15 meter and Feminine on
the British National and World lists plus Standard
and (I think) 20 metre on the UK Local list.

Care to join me on a campaigne to restore the distinctions?
I, for one think Russell's 1000 km flight on Friday
was of greater merit than the first UK 1000 km. One
pilot working at it non stop for eleven and a half
hours, compared to two pilots sharing the load for
twelve hours.

I have the greatest admiration for the terrific flights
that have been done in Argentina in the last few years,
but I will respect even more the pilot who does the
same thing solo and without an engine.

Chris Rollings

At 22:00 27 June 2004, Walter Kahn wrote:
>Mr. Johnson has got it wrong yet again - I assume
>that Gordon and his
>co-pilot will have difficulty in claiming Nick Goodhart's
>record as his
>is the single seater goal flight record which, of course,
>still stands.
>
>Incidentally Nick also remains the current World Gliding
>Two-seater
>Champion. It has been reported that some people are
>keen to revive this
>class again.
>
>Well done Gordon, Nimbus or whatever, well done all
>the guys who did
>great things on Super Friday. When you consider that
>Gordon was towed
>off at 0345 and one of the Lasham pilots completed
>his 750k and landed
>back at Lasham at 2130 - it was one hell of a day!
>Wally Kahn
>In article , Ian Johnston
> writes
>>On Sat, 26 Jun 2004 07:04:23 UTC, Gav Goudie
>> wrote:
>>
>>: Nimbus
>>: 3D completed a declared goal of Aboyne (Scotland)
>>to
>>: Lasham, (Hampshire).
>>
>>Does that mean that some rotten, unspeakable cad has
>>taken Goodhart's
>>Lasham to Portmoak record? If so, I am really disappointed
>>- sorry
>>guys, but doing it in a Skylark 3 is much, much, much,
>>much more of an
>>achievement than using a Nimbus 3D.
>>
>>Seriously, I hope they have the decency not to claim
>>the record.
>>
>>Ian
>>
>>
>
>--
>Walter Kahn
>

[Ian Johnston]

On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 23:09:24 UTC, "tango4"
> wrote:

: Records are there to be broken.
:
: Ian
:
: "Ian Johnston" > wrote in message
: news:cCUlhtvFIYkV-pn2-67b2oITd8NFz@localhost...
: >
: > I really do hope that nobody tries to take the Goodhart record - or at
: > least, not without a flight of equal impressiveness.

Well yes, but I think there has to be a sense of proportion. It
depends on whether you see the attraction of a record as being just
the number, or the whole background to the flight.

Doing Lasham to Portmoak in a 30:1 (on a good day) wooden glider,
leaving after lunch, is a hell of a flight. I am sure that lots of
people could outdo it in modern glass, but I think the distance would
have to be much, much further for it to be remotely comparable as an
achievement.

Scale diatance to glide angle, I say - when someone leaves Lasham at
2pm solo, in an ASH25, turns Portmoak and gets back that day, I'll
salute the flight as a worthy successor. Not that it'll take the free
distance record, of course, but you wsee what I mean.

Incidentally, I don't want to put down the guys who did
Lasham-in-the-North to Lasham-in-the-South. But I'm glad the Goodhart
record still stands.

Incidentally, am I right in thinking that a Bocian held one of the
world women's two-seater records before they were abolished? Free
distance, perhaps?

Ian

[Ian Johnston]

On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 06:36:07 UTC, Chris Rollings
> wrote:

: Regretably, Mr Johnson is right.

Ah, how often I hear that.

: There are no longer
: any such things as single seat, two seat or motor glider
: records - just Open Class, 15 meter and Feminine on
: the British National and World lists plus Standard
: and (I think) 20 metre on the UK Local list.

Does the Goodhart flight get the 20m free distance record?

Ian

[Andy Henderson]

Well said Chris,

The records being made at present in gliders with an engine "opt out"
are in no way comparable to the same flight without an engine.

Equally why we maintain "feminine" records in this day and age is
beyond me.

Andy Henderson




Chris Rollings > wrote in message >...
> Wally,
>
> Regretably, Mr Johnson is right. There are no longer
> any such things as single seat, two seat or motor glider
> records - just Open Class, 15 meter and Feminine on
> the British National and World lists plus Standard
> and (I think) 20 metre on the UK Local list.
>
> Care to join me on a campaigne to restore the distinctions?
> I, for one think Russell's 1000 km flight on Friday
> was of greater merit than the first UK 1000 km. One
> pilot working at it non stop for eleven and a half
> hours, compared to two pilots sharing the load for
> twelve hours.
>
> I have the greatest admiration for the terrific flights
> that have been done in Argentina in the last few years,
> but I will respect even more the pilot who does the
> same thing solo and without an engine.
>
> Chris Rollings
>
> At 22:00 27 June 2004, Walter Kahn wrote:
> >Mr. Johnson has got it wrong yet again - I assume
> >that Gordon and his
> >co-pilot will have difficulty in claiming Nick Goodhart's
> >record as his
> >is the single seater goal flight record which, of course,
> >still stands.
> >
> >Incidentally Nick also remains the current World Gliding
> >Two-seater
> >Champion. It has been reported that some people are
> >keen to revive this
> >class again.
> >
> >Well done Gordon, Nimbus or whatever, well done all
> >the guys who did
> >great things on Super Friday. When you consider that
> >Gordon was towed
> >off at 0345 and one of the Lasham pilots completed
> >his 750k and landed
> >back at Lasham at 2130 - it was one hell of a day!
> >Wally Kahn
> >In article , Ian Johnston
> > writes
> >>On Sat, 26 Jun 2004 07:04:23 UTC, Gav Goudie
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>: Nimbus
> >>: 3D completed a declared goal of Aboyne (Scotland)
> to
> >>: Lasham, (Hampshire).
> >>
> >>Does that mean that some rotten, unspeakable cad has
> >>taken Goodhart's
> >>Lasham to Portmoak record? If so, I am really disappointed
> >>- sorry
> >>guys, but doing it in a Skylark 3 is much, much, much,
> >>much more of an
> >>achievement than using a Nimbus 3D.
> >>
> >>Seriously, I hope they have the decency not to claim
> >>the record.
> >>
> >>Ian
> >>
> >>
> >
> >--
> >Walter Kahn
> >

[Alan Irving]

When Klaus Ohlmann talked about his Argentinian record
flights at the BGA conference a few years back, I believe
he said that having spent all day at 20,000+ feet the
engine in the Stemme would be highly unlikely to start.
Hence there is no more 'opt out' than if the flight
had been done in a pure sailplane, and the aachievement
is no less valid.


At 12:42 28 June 2004, Andy Henderson wrote:
>Well said Chris,
>
>The records being made at present in gliders with an
>engine 'opt out'
>are in no way comparable to the same flight without
>an engine.
>
>Equally why we maintain 'feminine' records in this
>day and age is
>beyond me.
>
>Andy Henderson
>
>
>
>
>Chris Rollings wrote in message news:...
>> Wally,
>>
>> Regretably, Mr Johnson is right. There are no longer
>> any such things as single seat, two seat or motor
>>glider
>> records - just Open Class, 15 meter and Feminine on
>> the British National and World lists plus Standard
>> and (I think) 20 metre on the UK Local list.
>>
>> Care to join me on a campaigne to restore the distinctions?
>> I, for one think Russell's 1000 km flight on Friday
>> was of greater merit than the first UK 1000 km. One
>> pilot working at it non stop for eleven and a half
>> hours, compared to two pilots sharing the load for
>> twelve hours.
>>
>> I have the greatest admiration for the terrific flights
>> that have been done in Argentina in the last few years,
>> but I will respect even more the pilot who does the
>> same thing solo and without an engine.
>>
>> Chris Rollings
>>
>> At 22:00 27 June 2004, Walter Kahn wrote:
>> >Mr. Johnson has got it wrong yet again - I assume
>> >that Gordon and his
>> >co-pilot will have difficulty in claiming Nick Goodhart's
>> >record as his
>> >is the single seater goal flight record which, of
>>>course,
>> >still stands.
>> >
>> >Incidentally Nick also remains the current World Gliding
>> >Two-seater
>> >Champion. It has been reported that some people are
>> >keen to revive this
>> >class again.
>> >
>> >Well done Gordon, Nimbus or whatever, well done all
>> >the guys who did
>> >great things on Super Friday. When you consider that
>> >Gordon was towed
>> >off at 0345 and one of the Lasham pilots completed
>> >his 750k and landed
>> >back at Lasham at 2130 - it was one hell of a day!
>> >Wally Kahn
>> >In article , Ian Johnston
>> > writes
>> >>On Sat, 26 Jun 2004 07:04:23 UTC, Gav Goudie
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>: Nimbus
>> >>: 3D completed a declared goal of Aboyne (Scotland)
>> to
>> >>: Lasham, (Hampshire).
>> >>
>> >>Does that mean that some rotten, unspeakable cad has
>> >>taken Goodhart's
>> >>Lasham to Portmoak record? If so, I am really disappointed
>> >>- sorry
>> >>guys, but doing it in a Skylark 3 is much, much, much,
>> >>much more of an
>> >>achievement than using a Nimbus 3D.
>> >>
>> >>Seriously, I hope they have the decency not to claim
>> >>the record.
>> >>
>> >>Ian
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >--
>> >Walter Kahn
>> >
>

[Andrew Henderson]

That's speculation, and the record whilst a magnificent
flight is not the same as one without an engine.

Are you saying that in all of Klaus's previous practise
flights at these heights he never started the engine
to get home because the flight 'wasn't on'? I think
not.

Andy Henderson

At 14:18 28 June 2004, Alan Irving wrote:
>When Klaus Ohlmann talked about his Argentinian record
>flights at the BGA conference a few years back, I believe
>he said that having spent all day at 20,000+ feet the
>engine in the Stemme would be highly unlikely to start.
> Hence there is no more 'opt out' than if the flight
>had been done in a pure sailplane, and the aachievement
>is no less valid.
>
>
>At 12:42 28 June 2004, Andy Henderson wrote:
>>Well said Chris,
>>
>>The records being made at present in gliders with an
>>engine 'opt out'
>>are in no way comparable to the same flight without
>>an engine.
>>
>>Equally why we maintain 'feminine' records in this
>>day and age is
>>beyond me.
>>
>>Andy Henderson
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Chris Rollings wrote in message news:...
>>> Wally,
>>>
>>> Regretably, Mr Johnson is right. There are no longer
>>> any such things as single seat, two seat or motor
>>>glider
>>> records - just Open Class, 15 meter and Feminine on
>>> the British National and World lists plus Standard
>>> and (I think) 20 metre on the UK Local list.
>>>
>>> Care to join me on a campaigne to restore the distinctions?
>>> I, for one think Russell's 1000 km flight on Friday
>>> was of greater merit than the first UK 1000 km. One
>>> pilot working at it non stop for eleven and a half
>>> hours, compared to two pilots sharing the load for
>>> twelve hours.
>>>
>>> I have the greatest admiration for the terrific flights
>>> that have been done in Argentina in the last few years,
>>> but I will respect even more the pilot who does the
>>> same thing solo and without an engine.
>>>
>>> Chris Rollings
>>>
>>> At 22:00 27 June 2004, Walter Kahn wrote:
>>> >Mr. Johnson has got it wrong yet again - I assume
>>> >that Gordon and his
>>> >co-pilot will have difficulty in claiming Nick Goodhart's
>>> >record as his
>>> >is the single seater goal flight record which, of
>>>>course,
>>> >still stands.
>>> >
>>> >Incidentally Nick also remains the current World Gliding
>>> >Two-seater
>>> >Champion. It has been reported that some people are
>>> >keen to revive this
>>> >class again.
>>> >
>>> >Well done Gordon, Nimbus or whatever, well done all
>>> >the guys who did
>>> >great things on Super Friday. When you consider that
>>> >Gordon was towed
>>> >off at 0345 and one of the Lasham pilots completed
>>> >his 750k and landed
>>> >back at Lasham at 2130 - it was one hell of a day!
>>> >Wally Kahn
>>> >In article , Ian Johnston
>>> > writes
>>> >>On Sat, 26 Jun 2004 07:04:23 UTC, Gav Goudie
>>> >> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>: Nimbus
>>> >>: 3D completed a declared goal of Aboyne (Scotland)
>>> to
>>> >>: Lasham, (Hampshire).
>>> >>
>>> >>Does that mean that some rotten, unspeakable cad has
>>> >>taken Goodhart's
>>> >>Lasham to Portmoak record? If so, I am really disappointed
>>> >>- sorry
>>> >>guys, but doing it in a Skylark 3 is much, much, much,
>>> >>much more of an
>>> >>achievement than using a Nimbus 3D.
>>> >>
>>> >>Seriously, I hope they have the decency not to claim
>>> >>the record.
>>> >>
>>> >>Ian
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >--
>>> >Walter Kahn
>>> >
>>
>
>
>

[Tom Serkowski]

Andy,I hate to single you out, but that statement really
bothers me.What if Klaus, instead of flying a motorglider, had
hired a dozen crews complete with trailers and helicopters
to handle the retreives along his route. Would you
also consider it less of an acheivement than if he
only had one crew at the home airport?What the motorglider does is give the (relatively)
ordinary pilot the opportunity to explore areas and
work conditions that are a bit more difficult logistically.
Last November, I flew a 100km world record speed flight.
I couldn't have done it without the motor as there
wasn't a towplane available at the airport. Also,
had a towplane been available, I may not have taken
the tow to 13000 MSL (nearly 8K AGL) due to perceived
cost and not wanting to inconvenience the next person
in line waiting for a tow.Anyone who thinks the engine provides an 'out' from
wrecking the glider has not flown one of these sailplanes
seriously. What the motor provides me is the same
confidence and frame of mind as a crew driving a very
fast car and always within easy contact to come and
get me out of that field I'm about to start the engine
over. So far, my engine has always started, but I
never trust it to.In the USA, national recods do separate motorgliders
from the rest. Aside from the logistics of the very
early launch and connecting with the wave, I don't
think Kempton Izuno ever thought about the engine on
his 1000 mile flight in the Sierra earlier this year.
I pretty much don't on over 90% of my flights. But
when I do, it's always AFTER I've picked a likely landing
area.At 15:12 28 June 2004, Andrew Henderson wrote:>That's speculation, and the record whilst a magnificent>flight is not the same as one without an engine.
Tom Serkowski
ASH-26E

To email me, place '@' after Tom, and append '.com'

[Tom Serkowski]

Andy,I hate to single you out, but that statement really
bothers me.What if Klaus, instead of flying a motorglider, had
hired a dozen crews complete with trailers and helicopters
to handle the retreives along his route. Would you
also consider it less of an acheivement than if he
only had one crew at the home airport?What the motorglider does is give the (relatively)
ordinary pilot the opportunity to explore areas and
work conditions that are a bit more difficult logistically.
Last November, I flew a 100km world record speed flight.
I couldn't have done it without the motor as there
wasn't a towplane available at the airport. Also,
had a towplane been available, I may not have taken
the tow to 13000 MSL (nearly 8K AGL) due to perceived
cost and not wanting to inconvenience the next person
in line waiting for a tow.Anyone who thinks the engine provides an 'out' from
wrecking the glider has not flown one of these sailplanes
seriously. What the motor provides me is the same
confidence and frame of mind as a crew driving a very
fast car and always within easy contact to come and
get me out of that field I'm about to start the engine
over. So far, my engine has always started, but I
never trust it to.In the USA, national recods do separate motorgliders
from the rest. Aside from the logistics of the very
early launch and connecting with the wave, I don't
think Kempton Izuno ever thought about the engine on
his 1000 mile flight in the Sierra earlier this year.
I pretty much don't on over 90% of my flights. But
when I do, it's always AFTER I've picked a likely landing
area.At 15:12 28 June 2004, Andrew Henderson wrote:>That's speculation, and the record whilst a magnificent>flight is not the same as one without an engine.
Tom Serkowski
ASH-26E

To email me, place '@' after Tom, and append '.com'

[Tom Serkowski]

Andy,I hate to single you out, but that statement really
bothers me.What if Klaus, instead of flying a motorglider, had
hired a dozen crews complete with trailers and helicopters
to handle the retreives along his route. Would you
also consider it less of an acheivement than if he
only had one crew at the home airport?What the motorglider does is give the (relatively)
ordinary pilot the opportunity to explore areas and
work conditions that are a bit more difficult logistically.
Last November, I flew a 100km world record speed flight.
I couldn't have done it without the motor as there
wasn't a towplane available at the airport. Also,
had a towplane been available, I may not have taken
the tow to 13000 MSL (nearly 8K AGL) due to perceived
cost and not wanting to inconvenience the next person
in line waiting for a tow.Anyone who thinks the engine provides an 'out' from
wrecking the glider has not flown one of these sailplanes
seriously. What the motor provides me is the same
confidence and frame of mind as a crew driving a very
fast car and always within easy contact to come and
get me out of that field I'm about to start the engine
over. So far, my engine has always started, but I
never trust it to.In the USA, national recods do separate motorgliders
from the rest. Aside from the logistics of the very
early launch and connecting with the wave, I don't
think Kempton Izuno ever thought about the engine on
his 1000 mile flight in the Sierra earlier this year.
I pretty much don't on over 90% of my flights. But
when I do, it's always AFTER I've picked a likely landing
area.At 15:12 28 June 2004, Andrew Henderson wrote:>That's speculation, and the record whilst a magnificent>flight is not the same as one without an engine.
Tom Serkowski
ASH-26E

To email me, place '@' after Tom, and append '.com'

[Tom Serkowski]

Hm,I just started using gliderpilot.net instead of google
to view RAS.Looks like it strips all line breaks and decided to
post my message more than once.-Tom
Tom Serkowski
ASH-26E

To email me, place '@' after Tom, and append '.com'

[Alan Irving]

Speculation on whose part? I'm merely reporting what
Ohlmann himself said. Perhaps he was speculating that
the engine wouldn't start after spending 15 hours at
sub zero temperatures - do you actually think it would?

Seeing how meticulous he was in all other facets of
his preparation, I imagine he might have tried the
motor during a local flight to confirm that it wouldn't
start. But that's just speculation...

At 15:12 28 June 2004, Andrew Henderson wrote:
>That's speculation, and the record whilst a magnificent
>flight is not the same as one without an engine.
>
>Are you saying that in all of Klaus's previous practise
>flights at these heights he never started the engine
>to get home because the flight 'wasn't on'? I think
>not.
>
>Andy Henderson
>
>At 14:18 28 June 2004, Alan Irving wrote:
>>When Klaus Ohlmann talked about his Argentinian record
>>flights at the BGA conference a few years back, I believe
>>he said that having spent all day at 20,000+ feet the
>>engine in the Stemme would be highly unlikely to start.
>> Hence there is no more 'opt out' than if the flight
>>had been done in a pure sailplane, and the aachievement
>>is no less valid.
>>
>>

[Tom Serkowski]

Hm,I just started using gliderpilot.net instead of google
to view RAS.Looks like it strips all line breaks and decided to
post my message more than once.-Tom
Tom Serkowski
ASH-26E

To email me, place '@' after Tom, and append '.com'

[Tom Serkowski]

Hm,I just started using gliderpilot.net instead of google
to view RAS.Looks like it strips all line breaks and decided to
post my message more than once.-Tom
Tom Serkowski
ASH-26E

To email me, place '@' after Tom, and append '.com'

[Bruce Greeff]

No speculation.

After such a long flight, having been cooled by the high altitude the chances
that the battery would be able to crank the pylon up is remote. (It should be at
full nominal charge as it is charged in flight by a generator)
If it did extend, the chances that there would be enough power available spin a
two stroke engine at well below freezing point, fast enough to start is even
more remote.
Then you have fuel that may have gelled at low temperature, and the probability
of carburettor icing.

I don't think there is much speculation. The chances of starting your engine
under these circumstances must be almost zero.

Bruce

Alan Irving wrote:
> Speculation on whose part? I'm merely reporting what
> Ohlmann himself said. Perhaps he was speculating that
> the engine wouldn't start after spending 15 hours at
> sub zero temperatures - do you actually think it would?
>
> Seeing how meticulous he was in all other facets of
> his preparation, I imagine he might have tried the
> motor during a local flight to confirm that it wouldn't
> start. But that's just speculation...
>
> At 15:12 28 June 2004, Andrew Henderson wrote:
>
>>That's speculation, and the record whilst a magnificent
>>flight is not the same as one without an engine.
>>
>>Are you saying that in all of Klaus's previous practise
>>flights at these heights he never started the engine
>>to get home because the flight 'wasn't on'? I think
>>not.
>>
>>Andy Henderson
>>
>>At 14:18 28 June 2004, Alan Irving wrote:
>>
>>>When Klaus Ohlmann talked about his Argentinian record
>>>flights at the BGA conference a few years back, I believe
>>>he said that having spent all day at 20,000+ feet the
>>>engine in the Stemme would be highly unlikely to start.
>>>Hence there is no more 'opt out' than if the flight
>>>had been done in a pure sailplane, and the aachievement
>>>is no less valid.
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
>

[tango4]

To play devils advocate for a moment .....

No one is going to start the engine at 20000' and minus 25 degrees C. Its
started at 2000' agl and in Argentina the temperature may be 30 degrees or
more at that altitude. I'll give you that it might take a while for the
engine to warm up to that temperature but would a pilot fly all the way down
without starting to employ energy/height saving measures

Generally two stroke engines don't have crankcases full of oil, lubrication
being acheived by the fuel oil mixture.

If it's a turbo it doesn't need cranking, it windmill starts and the
ignition is magneto's - no battery needed.

The Stemme uses a 4 stroke powerplant I think.

Ian

"Bruce Greeff" > wrote in message
...
> No speculation.
>
> After such a long flight, having been cooled by the high altitude the
chances
> that the battery would be able to crank the pylon up is remote. (It should
be at
> full nominal charge as it is charged in flight by a generator)
> If it did extend, the chances that there would be enough power available
spin a
> two stroke engine at well below freezing point, fast enough to start is
even
> more remote.
> Then you have fuel that may have gelled at low temperature, and the
probability
> of carburettor icing.
>
> I don't think there is much speculation. The chances of starting your
engine
> under these circumstances must be almost zero.
>
> Bruce
>
> Alan Irving wrote:
> > Speculation on whose part? I'm merely reporting what
> > Ohlmann himself said. Perhaps he was speculating that
> > the engine wouldn't start after spending 15 hours at
> > sub zero temperatures - do you actually think it would?
> >
> > Seeing how meticulous he was in all other facets of
> > his preparation, I imagine he might have tried the
> > motor during a local flight to confirm that it wouldn't
> > start. But that's just speculation...
> >
> > At 15:12 28 June 2004, Andrew Henderson wrote:
> >
> >>That's speculation, and the record whilst a magnificent
> >>flight is not the same as one without an engine.
> >>
> >>Are you saying that in all of Klaus's previous practise
> >>flights at these heights he never started the engine
> >>to get home because the flight 'wasn't on'? I think
> >>not.
> >>
> >>Andy Henderson
> >>
> >>At 14:18 28 June 2004, Alan Irving wrote:
> >>
> >>>When Klaus Ohlmann talked about his Argentinian record
> >>>flights at the BGA conference a few years back, I believe
> >>>he said that having spent all day at 20,000+ feet the
> >>>engine in the Stemme would be highly unlikely to start.
> >>>Hence there is no more 'opt out' than if the flight
> >>>had been done in a pure sailplane, and the aachievement
> >>>is no less valid.
> >>>
> >>>
> >
> >
> >
> >

[Bruce Greeff]

tango4 wrote:
> To play devils advocate for a moment .....
>
> No one is going to start the engine at 20000' and minus 25 degrees C. Its
> started at 2000' agl and in Argentina the temperature may be 30 degrees or
> more at that altitude. I'll give you that it might take a while for the
> engine to warm up to that temperature but would a pilot fly all the way down
> without starting to employ energy/height saving measures
>
> Generally two stroke engines don't have crankcases full of oil, lubrication
> being acheived by the fuel oil mixture.
>
> If it's a turbo it doesn't need cranking, it windmill starts and the
> ignition is magneto's - no battery needed.
>
> The Stemme uses a 4 stroke powerplant I think.
>
> Ian
>
> "Bruce Greeff" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>No speculation.
>>
>>After such a long flight, having been cooled by the high altitude the
>
> chances
>
>>that the battery would be able to crank the pylon up is remote. (It should
>
> be at
>
>>full nominal charge as it is charged in flight by a generator)
>>If it did extend, the chances that there would be enough power available
>
> spin a
>
>>two stroke engine at well below freezing point, fast enough to start is
>
> even
>
>>more remote.
>>Then you have fuel that may have gelled at low temperature, and the
>
> probability
>
>>of carburettor icing.
>>
>>I don't think there is much speculation. The chances of starting your
>
> engine
>
>>under these circumstances must be almost zero.
>>
>>Bruce
>>
>>Alan Irving wrote:
>>
>>>Speculation on whose part? I'm merely reporting what
>>>Ohlmann himself said. Perhaps he was speculating that
>>>the engine wouldn't start after spending 15 hours at
>>>sub zero temperatures - do you actually think it would?
>>>
>>>Seeing how meticulous he was in all other facets of
>>>his preparation, I imagine he might have tried the
>>>motor during a local flight to confirm that it wouldn't
>>>start. But that's just speculation...
>>>
>>>At 15:12 28 June 2004, Andrew Henderson wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>That's speculation, and the record whilst a magnificent
>>>>flight is not the same as one without an engine.
>>>>
>>>>Are you saying that in all of Klaus's previous practise
>>>>flights at these heights he never started the engine
>>>>to get home because the flight 'wasn't on'? I think
>>>>not.
>>>>
>>>>Andy Henderson
>>>>
>>>>At 14:18 28 June 2004, Alan Irving wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>When Klaus Ohlmann talked about his Argentinian record
>>>>>flights at the BGA conference a few years back, I believe
>>>>>he said that having spent all day at 20,000+ feet the
>>>>>engine in the Stemme would be highly unlikely to start.
>>>>>Hence there is no more 'opt out' than if the flight
>>>>>had been done in a pure sailplane, and the aachievement
>>>>>is no less valid.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>
Hi Ian

Comment based on information provided by Stemmme among others, where they
commented that they had to leave the engine overnight to warm up before it was
warm enough to start without fear of damage. This on some of the record flights
they were involved in.
Similarly any oil has a temperature range in which it works as specified. After
a good long cold soak, I doubt the short descent to 2000 AGL will significantly
warm the engine or the fuel/oil mix. Not only because of time, but because much
of the ground in the Andes is well over 10,000 MSL, so you are unlikely to be
getting the balmy plains temperatures when you are in trouble in the mountains.
Look at some of the videos, they show snow as far as the eye can see, in most
directions for much of the flight.

The Solo used in the Nimbus is not a turbo, so needs battery power to start.
The first obstacle is probably enough to make the starting issue moot. Very cold
batteries simply do not deliver much power. I doubt you could get the jackscrew
to crank the pylon up...

[Mike Lindsay]

>
>Incidentally, am I right in thinking that a Bocian held one of the
>world women's two-seater records before they were abolished? Free
>distance, perhaps?
>
>Ian


What!! Women have been abolished???
--
Mike Lindsay

[Tom Serkowski]

Hm,I just started using gliderpilot.net instead of google
to view RAS.Looks like it strips all line breaks and decided to
post my message more than once.-Tom
Tom Serkowski
ASH-26E

To email me, place '@' after Tom, and append '.com'

[Graeme Cant]

tango4 wrote:

> If it's a turbo it doesn't need cranking, it windmill starts and the
> ignition is magneto's - no battery needed.

I'd be interested in the windmill start procedure for a Stemme.

....and with NO battery?

Graeme Cant

[Eric Greenwell]

In article >,
says...
>Hm,I just started using gliderpilot.net instead of google
>to view RAS.Looks like it strips all line breaks and decided to
>post my message more than once.-Tom

Tom - maybe it's time to use a real newsreader. Tom - maybe it's time to use a real newsreader. Tom - maybe it's time to use a real newsreader.

--
--
Change "netto" to "net" to reply directly
Eric Greenwell USA

[Martin Gregorie]

On Thu, 01 Jul 2004 21:29:23 +1000, Graeme Cant >
wrote:

>tango4 wrote:
>
>> If it's a turbo it doesn't need cranking, it windmill starts and the
>> ignition is magneto's - no battery needed.
>
>I'd be interested in the windmill start procedure for a Stemme.
>
>...and with NO battery?
>
Don't forget all the bits that slide and open, like the nose cone and
vents, before you can start a Stemme. Cold-soak all that grease for a
few hours and then I bet you'd struggle to expose the prop and open
the air intakes, let alone get a start.

Just a thought.

--
martin@ : Martin Gregorie
gregorie : Harlow, UK
demon :
co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
uk :

[Ian Johnston]

On Wed, 30 Jun 2004 21:02:30 UTC, Mike Lindsay
> wrote:

: >Incidentally, am I right in thinking that a Bocian held one of the
: >world women's two-seater records before they were abolished? Free
: >distance, perhaps?

: What!! Women have been abolished???

No, silly. Bocians.

Ian

--

[Ian Johnston]

On Thu, 1 Jul 2004 15:21:09 UTC, Martin Gregorie
> wrote:

: Cold-soak all that grease for a
: few hours and then I bet you'd struggle to expose the prop and open
: the air intakes, let alone get a start.

And isn't its prop held open by centrifugal force? In which case,
there may be a chicken-and-egg problem.

Ian


--