Towing trailer and glider with a honda civic

[[email protected]]

I have a 2016 honda civic. It’s my only car. Has any one towed their glider and trailer using a small sedan like a civic?

[Waveguru]

I've towed with a Civic and with a '69 VW bus. It was slow up the hills but as long as I took it easy, no problems...

Boggs

P.S. Coming down the hills with the bus, we would deploy the air brakes to keep or speed down. (Open both front doors all the way with our legs. It was very effective.)

[[email protected]]

I tow a 1-26 on an open trailer with a honda fit. Works fine.

[Jeff Morgan]

On Tuesday, February 27, 2018 at 4:09:43 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> I have a 2016 honda civic. It’s my only car. Has any one towed their glider and trailer using a small sedan like a civic?

Years ago (18 to be exact) I used to own a DG100 in a Minden Fab trailer. I picked up the glider in Chattanooga with my 1995 Honda Accord. When I first put the transmission in Drive and released the brake, at idle engine speed it easily began pulling the trailer across the grass field.

The ensuing drive to Chicago was uneventful and I easily reached normal Interstate speeds. The hills of course were not too challenging.

[Bob Gibbons[_2_]]

As long as we're reminiscing, I remember the late Dick Johnson towing
his Nimbus 3 with his VW Rabbit diesel. This must have been in the
early or mid 80's. I believe he towed this combination from Texas to
Minden for a contest during this period.

Not the best combination, but it did work.

Bob

On Tue, 27 Feb 2018 16:09:02 -0800 (PST), Jeff Morgan
> wrote:

>On Tuesday, February 27, 2018 at 4:09:43 PM UTC-7, wrote:
>> I have a 2016 honda civic. It’s my only car. Has any one towed their glider and trailer using
>> a small sedan like a civic?
>
>Years ago (18 to be exact) I used to own a DG100 in a Minden Fab trailer. I picked up the
>>glider in Chattanooga with my 1995 Honda Accord. When I first put the transmission in
>>Drive and released the brake, at idle engine speed it easily began pulling the trailer
>>across the grass field.
>
>The ensuing drive to Chicago was uneventful and I easily reached normal Interstate speeds.
>>The hills of course were not too challenging.

[AS]

On Tuesday, February 27, 2018 at 6:09:43 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> I have a 2016 honda civic. It’s my only car. Has any one towed their glider and trailer using a small sedan like a civic?

I had a Ford Escort station wagon with a Diesel engine and manual transmission, which I used to tow a Schreder trailer and a Libelle in it. The trailer had no surge brake but coming down some of the steep grades in the Appalachian mountains was no problem since I used the engine's awesome braking power by down-shifting.
I would assume your Honda Civic has an automatic transmission which may get loaded above of what it was designed for in hilly terrain. As a minimum, I would install a transmission fluid cooler. Does your trailer have a surge brake?
In general, it is not a question of getting the car and trailer going but much more one of getting them stopped.

Uli
'AS'

[[email protected]]

The tow vehicle should always weight more than the trailer.
The tow vehicle should weight at least twice as much as the trailer.
I have many stories to share.
Take my suggestion and be happy and safe.
Oh...the trailer should have brakes. Surge or electric. It needs brakes.

[2G]

On Tuesday, February 27, 2018 at 3:09:43 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> I have a 2016 honda civic. It’s my only car. Has any one towed their glider and trailer using a small sedan like a civic?

I could not find towing capacity listed as a spec in the Civic's Owner's Manual. I found a couple of references that say that the Civic is not rated for towing and doing so voids the warranty, such as:

The owners manual clearly states that the Honda Civic is not rated for towing. Put on a trailer hitch and kiss your warranty goodbye.

Go to page 395:

"Your vehicle is not designed to tow a trailer. Attempting to do so can void your warranties."

===========

That said, you can buy tow hitches for the Civic. I recommend contacting your dealer before proceeding.

Tom

[Maxx Ruff]

The Australian VTi Honda Civic is rated
Towing capacity (kg)
trailer with brakes 800
trailer without brakes 500
ball down force 50

That said, I don't recommend using a small car to tow even if it seems
to tow reasonably well.
When things go wrong the trailer overwhelms the car.
In the mid 80s I had to avoid an oncoming car whose driver was dozing.
I got down to about 40KPH as the other car approached and then the
trailer began to jackknife then straighten then roll the car.
Trailer and car a write off, glider was ok, other car snuck past and
disappeared, I got a compressed vertebra.
Ruff

At 05:34 28 February 2018, 2G wrote:
>On Tuesday, February 27, 2018 at 3:09:43 PM UTC-8,

>wrote=
>:
>> I have a 2016 honda civic. It=E2=80=99s my only car. Has any one
towed
>th=
>eir glider and trailer using a small sedan like a civic?
>
>I could not find towing capacity listed as a spec in the Civic's Owner's
>Ma=
>nual. I found a couple of references that say that the Civic is not rated
>f=
>or towing and doing so voids the warranty, such as:
>
>The owners manual clearly states that the Honda Civic is not rated for
>towi=
>ng. Put on a trailer hitch and kiss your warranty goodbye.
>
>Go to page 395:
>
>"Your vehicle is not designed to tow a trailer. Attempting to do so can
>voi=
>d your warranties."
>
>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
>That said, you can buy tow hitches for the Civic. I recommend
contacting
>yo=
>ur dealer before proceeding.
>
>Tom
>

[Bruce Hoult]

On Wednesday, February 28, 2018 at 2:09:43 AM UTC+3, wrote:
> I have a 2016 honda civic. It’s my only car. Has any one towed their glider and trailer using a small sedan like a civic?

Tow ratings are funny things. What appears to be absolutely the same car can have vastly different tow ratings in different countries.

There would be very few cars (that are allowed to tow at all) with an official rating insufficient to tow a modern single-seater in a modern trailer with brakes.

The Cobra site says they can make trailers with a loaded maximum weight of:

- 750 kg for 15m single seaters (426 kg empty)

- 1000 kg for other single seaters up to 23m, including allowance for accesories

- 1300 kg for open class or two seaters (646 to 850 kg empty, depending on options)


A UK site lists towing for 2017 Civic as:

- 800 kg for 1.0 automatic
- 1000 kg for 1.5 automatic
- 1200 kg for 1.0 manual
- 1400 kg for 1.5 manual

http://www.uktow.com/towing%20capacity.asp?make=Honda&model1=Civic

So in theory you could tow a Duo Discus or DG1000 or Grob Twin behind a 1.5 manual Civic.

I don't think I'd try that myself! A 15m single seater should be fine.

Engine power is not really a concern. You've got gears, right?

Transmission cooling is a bigger problem for conventional automatics. Manuals and CVTs aren't generally a problem.

I once towed a Grob Twin Astir in an absolutely awful huge boxy brick wall heavy trailer from Auckland to Wellington behind a 2.5l Subaru Legacy with automatic transmission. I needed to go at least 80 km/h with that load in order for the torque converter to lock up 1:1 (and thus stop churning and heating the oil). But the trailer started to get unstable above 80 km/h. Driving just below 80 km/h for more than half an hour or so made some unhappy hot smells and nervous gear changes. By the end of that trip I was highly skilled at quick jabs on the steering wheel to dampen out oscillations at 90 or 100 km/h.

The same car tows a DG1000 in a modern trailer with no problems whatsoever, locking up the torque converter at maybe 65 km/h.

[Chris Rowland[_2_]]

A friend of mine has a 2011 Civic and uses it for towing without problems.
This is in the UK.

Chris

At 08:07 28 February 2018, Maxx Ruff wrote:
>The Australian VTi Honda Civic is rated
>Towing capacity (kg)
>trailer with brakes 800
>trailer without brakes 500
>ball down force 50
>
>That said, I don't recommend using a small car to tow even if it seems
>to tow reasonably well.
>When things go wrong the trailer overwhelms the car.
>In the mid 80s I had to avoid an oncoming car whose driver was dozing.
>I got down to about 40KPH as the other car approached and then the
>trailer began to jackknife then straighten then roll the car.
>Trailer and car a write off, glider was ok, other car snuck past and
>disappeared, I got a compressed vertebra.
>Ruff
>
>At 05:34 28 February 2018, 2G wrote:
>>On Tuesday, February 27, 2018 at 3:09:43 PM UTC-8,

>>wrote=
>>:
>>> I have a 2016 honda civic. It=E2=80=99s my only car. Has any one
>towed
>>th=
>>eir glider and trailer using a small sedan like a civic?
>>
>>I could not find towing capacity listed as a spec in the Civic's Owner's
>>Ma=
>>nual. I found a couple of references that say that the Civic is not
rated
>>f=
>>or towing and doing so voids the warranty, such as:
>>
>>The owners manual clearly states that the Honda Civic is not rated for
>>towi=
>>ng. Put on a trailer hitch and kiss your warranty goodbye.
>>
>>Go to page 395:
>>
>>"Your vehicle is not designed to tow a trailer. Attempting to do so can
>>voi=
>>d your warranties."
>>
>>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>>
>>That said, you can buy tow hitches for the Civic. I recommend
>contacting
>>yo=
>>ur dealer before proceeding.
>>
>>Tom
>>
>
>

[[email protected]]

Le mercredi 28 février 2018 00:09:43 UTC+1, a écritÂ*:
> I have a 2016 honda civic. It’s my only car. Has any one towed their glider and trailer using a small sedan like a civic?

I towed a Cobra (single axle) trailer with an ASK-21 from Belgium to Gruyère (Switzerland) and back without problems with my 2015 Civic 1600 Diesel. The towing limit is 1400 kg according to the homologation certificate.. Fuel consumption was 6 liter/100 km instead of the usual 5 l/100 km.

[krasw]

On Wednesday, 28 February 2018 01:09:43 UTC+2, wrote:
> I have a 2016 honda civic. It’s my only car. Has any one towed their glider and trailer using a small sedan like a civic?

Answer to question depends where you live. Europe: no problem at all. US: mother of god that's dangerous, get massive SUV right away.

[son_of_flubber]

I'd like to size my tow car for the worst case. Worst case so far was dry pavement ABS shuddering invoking panic stop from 35 mph to 5 mph when a moose appeared one night. Avionic trailer with surge brake and a 2004 Volvo XC70. Stable deacceleration and no collision.

Since then I stopped towing after dark. My appreciation of the risk at the time was hypothetical. There was a sign warning about moose, so I was driving on a deserted road at 35 mph in a 50 mph zone.

[Mike the Strike]

Many years ago, I towed my Jantar 1 in its giant steel and wooden trailer behind a 1.6 liter VW Golf. I did it once!

Lessons I learned:

1) Front-wheel drive vehicles are least suited to towing as they have less rear-end weight and suspension that's not always heavy duty.

2) A tow vehicle that's at least as heavy as the trailer

3) Preferably rear-wheel or all-wheel drive

With the above in mind, the Honda Civic has a curb weight of at least 2,500 pounds and plenty of power and should work if you are careful. I would limit your top speed and avoid the steepest routes. As others have noted, Civics and similar-sized vehicles are used for trailer towing in Europe and other parts of the world.

Mike

[Bruce Hoult]

On Wednesday, February 28, 2018 at 8:09:16 PM UTC+3, Mike the Strike wrote:
> Many years ago, I towed my Jantar 1 in its giant steel and wooden trailer behind a 1.6 liter VW Golf. I did it once!
>
> Lessons I learned:
>
> 1) Front-wheel drive vehicles are least suited to towing as they have less rear-end weight and suspension that's not always heavy duty.
>
> 2) A tow vehicle that's at least as heavy as the trailer
>
> 3) Preferably rear-wheel or all-wheel drive

When I started gliding, most people in NZ seemed to be using Ford Falcons or Holden Commodores (whether sedan, station wagon, or ute) for glider towing.

Sometime in the late 90s to early 2000s it suddenly seemed that a lot of people switched to using Subaru Legacy or Outback, or even Impreza/WRX. These cars tow well and stably on the highway, but also are pretty good at getting in and out of various places that people land out. All while using 2/3 the fuel of the Aussie six cylinder cars.

[sisu1a]

On Tuesday, February 27, 2018 at 3:09:43 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> I have a 2016 honda civic. It’s my only car. Has any one towed their glider and trailer using a small sedan like a civic?

Goes for any towing combo but lower mass vehicles are more susceptible so observe proper weight distribution... 10-20% the total weight on the tongue

http://i.imgur.com/dYz2tCE.gifv

[Per Carlin]

Have been towing with a lot of different European and Asian cars, and all sorts diffferent trailers. Have been towing DG1000 in Cobra trailer behind an 1,6l Toyota Corolla without any issues. Have been towing single seaters behind larger cars with issues.

If you have trouble with your towing is it most likely some old and worn pars on the car that is failing rather than the model of the car. What to check is:
- Suspension on the car, with bad/old suspension is problem around the corner.
- Tow ball load, zero or negative load is not what you want. To much on the ball is not good to. It should be in the range 25-50kg.
- Tire pressure. Add 0.2-0.4bar on the back wheels on the car compare to manufactures recommondation.
- Driving speed. Believe it or not driving to fast will get you in trouble, find put at what speed you car/trailer combination starts to wobble, stay below this speed with margin.

[Kiwi User]

I tow a Libelle in a box trailer with an automatic gearbox equipped 2
litre petrol Ford Focus estate (5 door station wagon) without any issues.

The stiffer rear suspension helps a lot. I have minimal weight on the tow
ball and can tow at up to just under 65mph (100kph) on motorways. Beyond
that stability starts to deteriorate, especially when passing trucks on a
windy day. Towing consumption is 29-30 mph vs 33-34 mpg normally.

The biggest problem, as always, is getting in and out of service stations.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[MN50]

There were many times he would have 2 or 3 passengers in the Rabbit.
It is doable, but "it depends" on the trailer weight and the terrain you plan to traverse.

[George Haeh]

I wrote off a Subaru Forester pulling a Puchaz. Photos of skid marks at the

scene showed one trailer brake seized across a slab transition lining up
that
wheel behind the hitch - then let go.

The Cobra manual advises that if the combination begins to sway:

1. Hold the wheel straight and brake.

2. Do not accelerate or counter steer.

Not having read the manual at the time, I applied 2.

Towing capacity is generally predicated on a shorter distance between hitch

and trailer axle. The Europeans and Australians often use an anti sway
hitch.

The new fibreglass top trailers do tow better, especially compared to
certain
Flintstone trailers.

Make sure the rear and trailer tires are inflated to the max.

When reading the maximum pressure off the sidewall, check the age of the
tires. Replace if older than five. It will save replacing a fender after
the tire
blows.

[JS[_5_]]

On Wednesday, February 28, 2018 at 9:32:07 AM UTC-8, Bruce Hoult wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 28, 2018 at 8:09:16 PM UTC+3, Mike the Strike wrote:
> > Many years ago, I towed my Jantar 1 in its giant steel and wooden trailer behind a 1.6 liter VW Golf. I did it once!
> >
> > Lessons I learned:
> >
> > 1) Front-wheel drive vehicles are least suited to towing as they have less rear-end weight and suspension that's not always heavy duty.
> >
> > 2) A tow vehicle that's at least as heavy as the trailer
> >
> > 3) Preferably rear-wheel or all-wheel drive
>
> When I started gliding, most people in NZ seemed to be using Ford Falcons or Holden Commodores (whether sedan, station wagon, or ute) for glider towing.
>
> Sometime in the late 90s to early 2000s it suddenly seemed that a lot of people switched to using Subaru Legacy or Outback, or even Impreza/WRX. These cars tow well and stably on the highway, but also are pretty good at getting in and out of various places that people land out. All while using 2/3 the fuel of the Aussie six cylinder cars.

Towing a Nimbus 3/25.5 in a Pfeiffer trailer, have used Subaru Outback, Holden Commodore, Chevy Tahoe and Toyota Rav4 (FWD only).
The Subaru was probably the best, followed by the Rav4.
The Chevy needed the V8 just to lug it's own weight around. It did not behave as well in various wind conditions as the others.
Jim

[Dan Marotta]

My wife's 3.6 liter (6-cylinder) outback will tow a glider trailer up
the steepest mountains in the US and pass everyone along the way.Â* It
still gets great mileage, though you do notice the difference towing.Â*
As long as weight is properly distributed, it's rock solid.

On 2/28/2018 10:32 AM, Bruce Hoult wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 28, 2018 at 8:09:16 PM UTC+3, Mike the Strike wrote:
>> Many years ago, I towed my Jantar 1 in its giant steel and wooden trailer behind a 1.6 liter VW Golf. I did it once!
>>
>> Lessons I learned:
>>
>> 1) Front-wheel drive vehicles are least suited to towing as they have less rear-end weight and suspension that's not always heavy duty.
>>
>> 2) A tow vehicle that's at least as heavy as the trailer
>>
>> 3) Preferably rear-wheel or all-wheel drive
> When I started gliding, most people in NZ seemed to be using Ford Falcons or Holden Commodores (whether sedan, station wagon, or ute) for glider towing.
>
> Sometime in the late 90s to early 2000s it suddenly seemed that a lot of people switched to using Subaru Legacy or Outback, or even Impreza/WRX. These cars tow well and stably on the highway, but also are pretty good at getting in and out of various places that people land out. All while using 2/3 the fuel of the Aussie six cylinder cars.

--
Dan, 5J

[[email protected]]

I towed with a diesel Jetta. No problem at all.

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, February 27, 2018 at 6:09:43 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> I have a 2016 honda civic. It’s my only car. Has any one towed their glider and trailer using a small sedan like a civic?

It isn't clear what kind of trailer you will be towing. It can vary from no big deal to don't do it.
A couple suggestions that will help:
1- Use the hitch with the shortest overhang you can get. Distance from the rear axle to the hitch pivot point has a meaningful affect on stability.
2- Inflate tires to the highest level allowed. Stiffer helps stability.
3- Reduce the crap you take to keep trailer lighter and do not over load the front. Tongue weight affects car balance adversely.
4 Put heavy stuff, as much as possible, in the car between the axles. Batteries, chargers, tool box, etc.
5. Keep the speed down and look was ahead. The biggest problem for stability is down hill, off throttle, getting passed by a truck.
Good luck

[[email protected]]

Le mardi 27 février 2018 18:09:43 UTC-5, a écritÂ*:
> I have a 2016 honda civic. It’s my only car. Has any one towed their glider and trailer using a small sedan like a civic?

Hi
I drove from Montreal to Seminole and back four time with a Toyota Camry 4 cyl. 2.5l.
No problem on those trips the car was new but the automatic transmission, no oil cooler, broke before the rest of the car needed to go to the scrap yard.
Gilles

[[email protected]]

Le mardi 27 février 2018 18:09:43 UTC-5, a écritÂ*:
> I have a 2016 honda civic. It’s my only car. Has any one towed their glider and trailer using a small sedan like a civic?

Forgaot to say I was towing a Cobra with a LS6 and a lot of bagage.
Gilles

[Steve Cameron]

I've towed an open cirrus and an LS4 with a VW TDI, had to be careful on the interstate so as not to get into a PIO with the trailer moving around a lot. The VW seemed to handle it OK, however several years later I did have to replace the transmission(auto), so maybe this was really too much load for the TDI, in spite of the nice torque it had.

[Dan Daly[_2_]]

Been towing a tube trailer with Std Austria, and after, an Avionic AVG 15 with SZD-55, behind a 2006 VW Jetta TDI, 5 speed manual. Many towing miles, Colorado and down to PA (hilly) with no transmission problems. Boringly reliable...

[Craig Funston[_3_]]

On Thursday, March 1, 2018 at 4:30:13 PM UTC-8, Dan Daly wrote:
> Been towing a tube trailer with Std Austria, and after, an Avionic AVG 15 with SZD-55, behind a 2006 VW Jetta TDI, 5 speed manual. Many towing miles, Colorado and down to PA (hilly) with no transmission problems. Boringly reliable...

Working for Roger Frank many years ago we put a trailer hitch on his Ferarri 308 GT4 and towed the ASW-20 in a Komet trailer to the local contest. The Ferarri took it like a champ and was rock solid. Made quire a splash on arrival. Pretty hard to camp in it though..

Craig

[Tango Eight]

On Tuesday, February 27, 2018 at 6:09:43 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> I have a 2016 honda civic. It’s my only car. Has any one towed their glider and trailer using a small sedan like a civic?

It's a two year old car. You'll take an absolute (and instant) thrashing on the value of the vehicle of you put a hitch on it. Moreover, if it's a CVT automatic and you have problem$$$$ with it, you'll be SOL because it isn't rated to tow.

T8

[[email protected]]

Check a copy of a Euro manual for the identical version of your car. Cars sold in America that have 'tow and die' verbiage often have reasonable towing limits per manufacturer when sold in Europe.

[Bruce Hoult]

On Friday, March 2, 2018 at 5:51:03 AM UTC+3, wrote:
> Check a copy of a Euro manual for the identical version of your car. Cars sold in America that have 'tow and die' verbiage often have reasonable towing limits per manufacturer when sold in Europe.

I posted the UK ratings for 2017 Civic here days ago:

- 800 kg for 1.0 automatic
- 1000 kg for 1.5 automatic
- 1200 kg for 1.0 manual
- 1400 kg for 1.5 manual

[[email protected]]

Thanks for the replies guys. I think I will go ahead and put a hitch on the car, and see how it behaves. As of now I only need it for the ocasional land out.

[BG[_4_]]

On Tuesday, February 27, 2018 at 3:09:43 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> I have a 2016 honda civic. It’s my only car. Has any one towed their glider and trailer using a small sedan like a civic?

Key to towing safely with a small car is having excellent trailer brakes. Not counting how slow you will go climbing hills. And the strain on the transmission or clutch.

BG

[Tango Eight]

On Thursday, March 1, 2018 at 10:12:56 PM UTC-5, Bruce Hoult wrote:
> On Friday, March 2, 2018 at 5:51:03 AM UTC+3, wrote:
> > Check a copy of a Euro manual for the identical version of your car. Cars sold in America that have 'tow and die' verbiage often have reasonable towing limits per manufacturer when sold in Europe.
>
> I posted the UK ratings for 2017 Civic here days ago:
>
> - 800 kg for 1.0 automatic
> - 1000 kg for 1.5 automatic
> - 1200 kg for 1.0 manual
> - 1400 kg for 1.5 manual

100 km / hr speed limit too.

[Papa3[_2_]]

Towed for the last 6 years with a VW Jetta Sportwagon TDI. LS8/18 in an Anschau trailer then ASG-29 in a Cobra. Great tow vehicle. I did put spring helpers (coil inserts) in the rear end which helped keep the sag to a minimum. Over the years I've towed with a bunch of VWs starting with a Rabbit Diesel (no good) up through Jetta sedans (fair) Passat V6 wagon with 4 motion (great) and the Sportwagon TDI (great). Pay a lot of attention to the hitch height and tongue weight as well as all the other good advice about tire pressures etc.

[son_of_flubber]

Now that OP has made his decision, I'll drift the thread with this towing tidbit...

I looked into towing with a hybrid. There is an issue with overheating of the electric motors on long grades. The 'recommended tow weights' are much lower for the hybrid version of the same model vehicle. I'd guess that part of the issue is that the same motors are used for 'regenerative braking' on the downgrades, so they don't get a chance to cool off.

[2G]

On Friday, March 2, 2018 at 7:54:13 AM UTC-8, son_of_flubber wrote:
> Now that OP has made his decision, I'll drift the thread with this towing tidbit...
>
> I looked into towing with a hybrid. There is an issue with overheating of the electric motors on long grades. The 'recommended tow weights' are much lower for the hybrid version of the same model vehicle. I'd guess that part of the issue is that the same motors are used for 'regenerative braking' on the downgrades, so they don't get a chance to cool off.

Remember that manufacturer recommended towing limits are assuming a shorter wheelbase utility type trailer, not a long wheelbase glider trailer. Weight is not the only issue to consider. And they probably also assume short, local trips, not long-distance trips.

Tom

[Paul Agnew]

I'm towing my Schreder trailer with a 2004 Prius with 277k miles on it. MPG drops to 28-29, but it tows fine. The Schreder is much lighter than the wood/fiberglass box I was pulling.

The plan is to add electric or surge brakes soon. Plus, it probably will feel a little different when I actually put my glider in it. ;-) (Soon...very soon...still working on fittings.)

Paul A.

[sisu1a]

On Friday, March 2, 2018 at 8:32:39 AM UTC-8, Paul Agnew wrote:
> I'm towing my Schreder trailer with a 2004 Prius with 277k miles on it. MPG drops to 28-29, but it tows fine. The Schreder is much lighter than the wood/fiberglass box I was pulling.
>
> The plan is to add electric or surge brakes soon. Plus, it probably will feel a little different when I actually put my glider in it. ;-) (Soon...very soon...still working on fittings.)
>
> Paul A.

Electric brakes good.

Surge brakes bad.

[JS[_5_]]

On Friday, March 2, 2018 at 9:36:00 AM UTC-8, sisu1a wrote:
> On Friday, March 2, 2018 at 8:32:39 AM UTC-8, Paul Agnew wrote:
> > I'm towing my Schreder trailer with a 2004 Prius with 277k miles on it. MPG drops to 28-29, but it tows fine. The Schreder is much lighter than the wood/fiberglass box I was pulling.
> >
> > The plan is to add electric or surge brakes soon. Plus, it probably will feel a little different when I actually put my glider in it. ;-) (Soon...very soon...still working on fittings.)
> >
> > Paul A.
>
> Electric brakes good.
>
> Surge brakes bad.

Again?
The term "********" comes to mind.
Jim

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

Not maintaining the tongue center tube on surge brakes, a little worse.
No brakes on the trailer, really bad.

[Dan Marotta]

I would not recommend assuming that a manufacturer "assumes".Â* When in
doubt, ask the manufacturer.Â* My experience in the auto industry,
involved with manufacturer's engineering specifications, indicates that
they have very stringent specs.Â* Give 'em a call.

On 3/2/2018 9:00 AM, 2G wrote:
> On Friday, March 2, 2018 at 7:54:13 AM UTC-8, son_of_flubber wrote:
>> Now that OP has made his decision, I'll drift the thread with this towing tidbit...
>>
>> I looked into towing with a hybrid. There is an issue with overheating of the electric motors on long grades. The 'recommended tow weights' are much lower for the hybrid version of the same model vehicle. I'd guess that part of the issue is that the same motors are used for 'regenerative braking' on the downgrades, so they don't get a chance to cool off.
> Remember that manufacturer recommended towing limits are assuming a shorter wheelbase utility type trailer, not a long wheelbase glider trailer. Weight is not the only issue to consider. And they probably also assume short, local trips, not long-distance trips.
>
> Tom

--
Dan, 5J

[Dan Marotta]

bol·locks
ˈbäləks/
BRITISHvulgar slang
/noun/

1.
*1*.
the testicles.
2.
*2*.
used to express contempt, annoyance, or defiance.

Which is it?



On 3/2/2018 11:26 AM, JS wrote:
> On Friday, March 2, 2018 at 9:36:00 AM UTC-8, sisu1a wrote:
>> On Friday, March 2, 2018 at 8:32:39 AM UTC-8, Paul Agnew wrote:
>>> I'm towing my Schreder trailer with a 2004 Prius with 277k miles on it. MPG drops to 28-29, but it tows fine. The Schreder is much lighter than the wood/fiberglass box I was pulling.
>>>
>>> The plan is to add electric or surge brakes soon. Plus, it probably will feel a little different when I actually put my glider in it. ;-) (Soon...very soon...still working on fittings.)
>>>
>>> Paul A.
>> Electric brakes good.
>>
>> Surge brakes bad.
> Again?
> The term "********" comes to mind.
> Jim

--
Dan, 5J

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

While I "typically agree", OEM limits are sometimes based more on "local sales laws" or "how likely do we think we will get sued?".

What may be fine in parts of the planet are banned in other parts of the planet, even if the basic hardware is the same.

As to the original question, well yes, this combination may be fine, but margins can be rather slim compared to other cars.

I have towed from a worn out '70's super beetle (with a huge plywood and steel trailer and a ASW-15 in it) to a mid sized motor home with a newer trailer and 15m ship.

Vehicle weight, the more the better.
Vehicle wheelbase, the more the better.
Trailer weight, the lower the better.
Tongue weight, small range of "OK".
Aero can make a difference, use the same trailer but on 2 similar vehicles but with different aero, some are great and some leave the trailer dancing at speed.

Road speed, hills, crosswinds and truck traffic can all make a difference.

Small cars with a AT and a heavy trailer, be mindful of trans fluid temps. Manual trans is a bit easier, all other things being the same.

When in doubt, slow the Frik down. If you lose it, damage is lessened, both the tow vehicle and the trailer.
Trailer damage is like aircraft damage, if you don't hurt it, you likely don't hurt peeps.

[JS[_5_]]

On Saturday, March 3, 2018 at 7:12:06 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
> bol·locks
>
>
>
> ˈbäləks/
>
> BRITISHvulgar
> slang
>
>
>
> noun
>
>
>
>
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> 1.
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>
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> the
> testicles.
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> 2.
>
>
>
>
>
> used
> to express contempt, annoyance, or defiance.
>
>
>
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>
>
> Which is it?
>
>
>
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>
>
>
> On 3/2/2018 11:26 AM, JS wrote:
>
>
>
> On Friday, March 2, 2018 at 9:36:00 AM UTC-8, sisu1a wrote:
>
>
> On Friday, March 2, 2018 at 8:32:39 AM UTC-8, Paul Agnew wrote:
>
>
> I'm towing my Schreder trailer with a 2004 Prius with 277k miles on it. MPG drops to 28-29, but it tows fine. The Schreder is much lighter than the wood/fiberglass box I was pulling.
>
> The plan is to add electric or surge brakes soon. Plus, it probably will feel a little different when I actually put my glider in it. ;-) (Soon...very soon...still working on fittings.)
>
> Paul A.
>
>
> Electric brakes good.
>
> Surge brakes bad.
>
>
> Again?
> The term "********" comes to mind.
> Jim
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Dan, 5J

Actually neither of those.
The definition should include "Rubbish".
Jim

[David Sherrill]

In 2017 the hybrid Toyota Rav4 had a higher tow capacity.
Slightly. The ordinary Rav4 was rated 1500 lbs; the hybrid 1750.

Those are USA ratings. Meanwhile, Toyota's UK web site claimed 3000 lbs for the ordinary Rav4.

...david

On Friday, March 2, 2018 at 10:54:13 AM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:
> Now that OP has made his decision, I'll drift the thread with this towing tidbit...
>
> I looked into towing with a hybrid. There is an issue with overheating of the electric motors on long grades. The 'recommended tow weights' are much lower for the hybrid version of the same model vehicle. I'd guess that part of the issue is that the same motors are used for 'regenerative braking' on the downgrades, so they don't get a chance to cool off.

[Mike the Strike]

On Saturday, March 3, 2018 at 9:25:31 AM UTC-7, David Sherrill wrote:
> In 2017 the hybrid Toyota Rav4 had a higher tow capacity.
> Slightly. The ordinary Rav4 was rated 1500 lbs; the hybrid 1750.
>
> Those are USA ratings. Meanwhile, Toyota's UK web site claimed 3000 lbs for the ordinary Rav4.
>
> ...david
>
> On Friday, March 2, 2018 at 10:54:13 AM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:
> > Now that OP has made his decision, I'll drift the thread with this towing tidbit...
> >
> > I looked into towing with a hybrid. There is an issue with overheating of the electric motors on long grades. The 'recommended tow weights' are much lower for the hybrid version of the same model vehicle. I'd guess that part of the issue is that the same motors are used for 'regenerative braking' on the downgrades, so they don't get a chance to cool off.

From a Toyota web site:

"An upgrade to the all-new 2018 Toyota RAV4 Adventure trim level will improve the available towing capacity of the Toyota compact crossover. Fitted with a standard Tow Prep Package, the RAV4 Adventure adds an upgraded radiator, a heavy-duty engine oil cooler and upgraded transmission fluid coolers to improve towing. With the tow hitch receiver and wiring harness, the front-wheel drive Toyota RAV4 Adventure will tow an impressive 2,900 pounds. When you add Dynamic Torque Control AWD to the equation, the RAV4 Adventure will tow 3,500 pounds – 2,000 pounds more than standard models."

Maybe engine/transmission cooling isn't such a problem in the UK, like it is here in Arizona?

Mike

[Mike the Strike]

On Saturday, March 3, 2018 at 10:44:41 AM UTC-7, Mike the Strike wrote:
> On Saturday, March 3, 2018 at 9:25:31 AM UTC-7, David Sherrill wrote:
> > In 2017 the hybrid Toyota Rav4 had a higher tow capacity.
> > Slightly. The ordinary Rav4 was rated 1500 lbs; the hybrid 1750.
> >
> > Those are USA ratings. Meanwhile, Toyota's UK web site claimed 3000 lbs for the ordinary Rav4.
> >
> > ...david
> >
> > On Friday, March 2, 2018 at 10:54:13 AM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:
> > > Now that OP has made his decision, I'll drift the thread with this towing tidbit...
> > >
> > > I looked into towing with a hybrid. There is an issue with overheating of the electric motors on long grades. The 'recommended tow weights' are much lower for the hybrid version of the same model vehicle. I'd guess that part of the issue is that the same motors are used for 'regenerative braking' on the downgrades, so they don't get a chance to cool off.
>
> From a Toyota web site:
>
> "An upgrade to the all-new 2018 Toyota RAV4 Adventure trim level will improve the available towing capacity of the Toyota compact crossover. Fitted with a standard Tow Prep Package, the RAV4 Adventure adds an upgraded radiator, a heavy-duty engine oil cooler and upgraded transmission fluid coolers to improve towing. With the tow hitch receiver and wiring harness, the front-wheel drive Toyota RAV4 Adventure will tow an impressive 2,900 pounds. When you add Dynamic Torque Control AWD to the equation, the RAV4 Adventure will tow 3,500 pounds – 2,000 pounds more than standard models."
>
> Maybe engine/transmission cooling isn't such a problem in the UK, like it is here in Arizona?
>
> Mike

....and from Toyota UK:

"Both front- and four-wheel drive RAV4 Hybrid models have a legal towing capacity of 750kg for unbraked trailers. With regards to braked trailers (where the trailer has its own braking system), the front-wheel drive RAV4 Hybrid has a recommended towing capacity of 800kg and the four-wheel drive RAV4 Hybrid has a recommended towing capacity of 1,650kg."

Towing capacity depends very much on model and model year - an earlier diesel RAV4 had a stated towing capacity of 2,000 kg.

Mike

[SoaringXCellence]

I think the intended word/phrase should have been "bollix up". As defined below:

Merriam Webster defines bollix as "to throw into disorder; also : bungle"

Mike

[Kiwi User]

On Sat, 03 Mar 2018 17:01:20 -0800, SoaringXCellence wrote:

> I think the intended word/phrase should have been "bollix up". As
> defined below:
>
> Merriam Webster defines bollix as "to throw into disorder; also :
> bungle"
>
Jim is right about common British usage of the word, which is spelt
'********'. It is a universal word, usually used in male company, that
can mean a lot of things, all of them signalling disappointment or worse.
For example "******** to that!" means "That's a stupid idea", "Oh
********", said in a disappointed tone, that something unexpectedly went
wrong and just plain "********!" is the same as a heartfelt "Dammit!" or
"Bugger!".


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, February 27, 2018 at 4:09:43 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> I have a 2016 honda civic. It’s my only car. Has any one towed their glider and trailer using a small sedan like a civic?

The only car Ive had that tows better than my Bugatti Veyron is my Rolls Royce
Corniche.
OK;), Just a few musings you guys might comment on. I've towed Bickle and Cobra trailers and I have found that the type of tire matters. For some reason I have had better luck (Handling wise) with car specific tires and not trailer specific tires. Further, I have seen different model years of the same car (Ford Explorer in this case) have totally different towing qualities and behavior.

[Dan Marotta]

I kinda liked it when the British girl asked me to knock her up in the
morning.

Here's a very good visual description of "Bugger".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbBx4Ql6Umo

On 3/4/2018 4:15 AM, Kiwi User wrote:
> On Sat, 03 Mar 2018 17:01:20 -0800, SoaringXCellence wrote:
>
>> I think the intended word/phrase should have been "bollix up". As
>> defined below:
>>
>> Merriam Webster defines bollix as "to throw into disorder; also :
>> bungle"
>>
> Jim is right about common British usage of the word, which is spelt
> '********'. It is a universal word, usually used in male company, that
> can mean a lot of things, all of them signalling disappointment or worse.
> For example "******** to that!" means "That's a stupid idea", "Oh
> ********", said in a disappointed tone, that something unexpectedly went
> wrong and just plain "********!" is the same as a heartfelt "Dammit!" or
> "Bugger!".
>
>

--
Dan, 5J

[Bruce Hoult]

On Sunday, March 4, 2018 at 6:51:51 PM UTC+3, wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 27, 2018 at 4:09:43 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > I have a 2016 honda civic. It’s my only car. Has any one towed their glider and trailer using a small sedan like a civic?
>
> The only car Ive had that tows better than my Bugatti Veyron is my Rolls Royce
> Corniche.
> OK;), Just a few musings you guys might comment on. I've towed Bickle and Cobra trailers and I have found that the type of tire matters. For some reason I have had better luck (Handling wise) with car specific tires and not trailer specific tires.

Sidewall stiffness helps. Either inherent -- crossplys are better than radials, all else being equal -- or created by pumping them up to the maximum pressure.

Has anyone tried putting bigger rims and low profile tyres on their trailer? That would be a very "car" thing.

>Further, I have seen different model years of the same car (Ford Explorer in this case) have totally different towing qualities and behavior.

Was the worse one old enough that wear could be a factor?

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, March 4, 2018 at 9:35:48 AM UTC-7, Bruce Hoult wrote:
> On Sunday, March 4, 2018 at 6:51:51 PM UTC+3, wrote:
> > On Tuesday, February 27, 2018 at 4:09:43 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > > I have a 2016 honda civic. It’s my only car. Has any one towed their glider and trailer using a small sedan like a civic?
> >
> > The only car Ive had that tows better than my Bugatti Veyron is my Rolls Royce
> > Corniche.
> > OK;), Just a few musings you guys might comment on. I've towed Bickle and Cobra trailers and I have found that the type of tire matters. For some reason I have had better luck (Handling wise) with car specific tires and not trailer specific tires.
>
> Sidewall stiffness helps. Either inherent -- crossplys are better than radials, all else being equal -- or created by pumping them up to the maximum pressure.
>
> Has anyone tried putting bigger rims and low profile tyres on their trailer? That would be a very "car" thing.
>
> >Further, I have seen different model years of the same car (Ford Explorer in this case) have totally different towing qualities and behavior.
>
> Was the worse one old enough that wear could be a factor?

Actually, The 93 2WD Explorer towed a Bickle trailer better than a 96 4WD. I installed new shocks and better tires on the car and no help. I replaced old (Really old) radial car tires on the trailer with bias ply trailer tires and the handling became scary at highway speeds.
My current Cobra trailer did better (At highway speeds) with the old bald car tires it had when I bought it than with current trailer specific tires. Currently tow with an F-150 and it does well but I did have to add a 50 pound bag of sand to the front of the trailer. For some reason the bag of sand helps substantially when towing behind the truck but was no help when towing behind the explorer. No longer own the explorer.
Should add that here in Utah everyone drives too fast and one needs to tow around 80 just to keep from getting cut off.

[Michael Opitz]

At 15:51 04 March 2018, wrote

> Further, I have seen different model years of the
same car (Ford Explorer in this case) have totally different
towing qualities and behavior.

I have had 1994, 1998, and 2006 Ford Explorers to tow with.
The suspension improvements that Ford made with each
new successive body style have been very noticeable in normal
day to day driving, as well as in towing. I have pretty much no
issues at all in towing my Cobra trailer behind the 2006 Explorer.
I can only assume it would even be better with the 2011 and up
body style.

So, yes... Newer versions of the same model vehicle will probably
have enhancements to the suspension, and may thus be better
suited for towing than older versions of the same model.

RO

[son_of_flubber]

On Saturday, March 3, 2018 at 10:10:27 AM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
> I would not recommend assuming that a manufacturer "assumes".Â* When in
> doubt, ask the manufacturer.Â* My experience in the auto industry,
> involved with manufacturer's engineering specifications, indicates that
> they have very stringent specs.Â*

There is an SAE standard for recommended towing maximums. But the number of manufacturers that actually adhere to the standard has changed over the years. So it is difficult for consumers to compare the tow capacity of vehicles. It's interesting to read that the standard is based on a real world scenario.

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/that-dam-towing-test-new-sae-trailering-standards-explained-tech-dept

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Bruce Hoult wrote on 3/4/2018 8:35 AM:
> Sidewall stiffness helps. Either inherent -- crossplys are better than radials, all else being equal -- or created by pumping them up to the maximum pressure.

Realistically, the only time you can choose crossply (aka "bias ply") tires is in
the "ST" category (trailer tires), because they aren't commonly available for
passenger cars. The steel belt gives the tire tread more lateral stiffness than a
the same size non-belted crossply tire, and consequently more stability to the
trailer. There are other very good reasons radials are the most common car and
trailer tire; the only advantage of a non-belted trailer tire is lower price.

I actually did the experiment last year, putting same size radials and bias ply
tires on my trailer. The radials let me tow about 7-10 mph faster. Contrary to
"common knowledge", the radial ST tire deflected less laterally than the same size
bias ply ST tire. A similar (not identical) size LT radial tire had even less
deflection than the other two when tire pressures were set for the same load rating.

It's a small sample of the tire universe, but illustrates choosing by assumed
sidewall stiffness is not a good way to choose tires.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/Guide-to-transponders-in-sailplanes-2014A.pdf

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, March 13, 2018 at 7:55:15 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> Bruce Hoult wrote on 3/4/2018 8:35 AM:
> > Sidewall stiffness helps. Either inherent -- crossplys are better than radials, all else being equal -- or created by pumping them up to the maximum pressure.
>
> Realistically, the only time you can choose crossply (aka "bias ply") tires is in
> the "ST" category (trailer tires), because they aren't commonly available for
> passenger cars. The steel belt gives the tire tread more lateral stiffness than a
> the same size non-belted crossply tire, and consequently more stability to the
> trailer. There are other very good reasons radials are the most common car and
> trailer tire; the only advantage of a non-belted trailer tire is lower price.
>
> I actually did the experiment last year, putting same size radials and bias ply
> tires on my trailer. The radials let me tow about 7-10 mph faster. Contrary to
> "common knowledge", the radial ST tire deflected less laterally than the same size
> bias ply ST tire. A similar (not identical) size LT radial tire had even less
> deflection than the other two when tire pressures were set for the same load rating.
>
> It's a small sample of the tire universe, but illustrates choosing by assumed
> sidewall stiffness is not a good way to choose tires.
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)

I agree that radials work well from my experience. I don't actually understand why people think the tires on the trailer are the problem. The trailer tire sidewalls are not flexing in my experience. In my experience the tires at the rear of the tow vehicle are the critical item.
The trailer tires/axel are the hinge point, however all the resistance from swaying needs to happen at the hitch and forward.

I had a Subaru Forester that had very soft sidewall H rated tires. The komet trailer got extremely unstable at 45mph and higher.

(Without a trailer on even) I could not believe that tire got an H rating it was really soft, you could push sideways on the hitch and watch the entire vehicle oscillate. I thought I was going to have to sell the Forester.

Higher inflation especially of the rear tires helped some.

Instead I changed to a stiff sidewall V rated good quality tire then i could tow very stable up to 85+mph. I also kept the rear tires inflated about 5 psi higher than the fronts.

No change of trailer tires was involved - I usually ran radials on the trailer.

Chris

[2G]

On Saturday, March 3, 2018 at 7:10:27 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
> I would not recommend assuming that a manufacturer "assumes".Â* When in
> doubt, ask the manufacturer.Â* My experience in the auto industry,
> involved with manufacturer's engineering specifications, indicates that
> they have very stringent specs.Â* Give 'em a call.
>
> On 3/2/2018 9:00 AM, 2G wrote:
> > On Friday, March 2, 2018 at 7:54:13 AM UTC-8, son_of_flubber wrote:
> >> Now that OP has made his decision, I'll drift the thread with this towing tidbit...
> >>
> >> I looked into towing with a hybrid. There is an issue with overheating of the electric motors on long grades. The 'recommended tow weights' are much lower for the hybrid version of the same model vehicle. I'd guess that part of the issue is that the same motors are used for 'regenerative braking' on the downgrades, so they don't get a chance to cool off.
> > Remember that manufacturer recommended towing limits are assuming a shorter wheelbase utility type trailer, not a long wheelbase glider trailer. Weight is not the only issue to consider. And they probably also assume short, local trips, not long-distance trips.
> >
> > Tom
>
> --
> Dan, 5J

By all means - call. But I can tell you that recommendations are based on an expected population of trailers. Glider trailers are the exception, not the norm. Utility trailers are the norm. The dynamics of glider trailers are much different than utility trailers.
Also, the accident-free history of a particular car and particular trailer does not mean that that combination is safe, let alone a broad spectrum of cars and trailers. All that it means is than an accident hasn't so far, and is no guarantee that it will not happen in the future. You may not have encountered the set of conditions that will push you over the edge. Losing control of a car and trailer at highway speeds is serious business. Personally, I will invest in a better tow vehicle before I will risk my - and other motorists who with whom I'm sharing the road - safety.
Tom