Public ADS-B Performance Report Request

[son_of_flubber]

If you have installed ADS-B out or TABS, you will be interested in this

https://adsbperformance.faa.gov/PAPRRequest.aspx

[Craig Funston[_3_]]

On Tuesday, March 6, 2018 at 3:21:10 PM UTC-8, son_of_flubber wrote:
> If you have installed ADS-B out or TABS, you will be interested in this
>
> https://adsbperformance.faa.gov/PAPRRequest.aspx

Thanks Flub,

It was on my list to track that down.

Cheers,
Craig
7Q

[Dan Marotta]

Got a report yesterday on my new ADS-B Out/In in our Skywagon. Perfect
performance!

On 3/6/2018 5:59 PM, Craig Funston wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 6, 2018 at 3:21:10 PM UTC-8, son_of_flubber wrote:
>> If you have installed ADS-B out or TABS, you will be interested in this
>>
>> https://adsbperformance.faa.gov/PAPRRequest.aspx
> Thanks Flub,
>
> It was on my list to track that down.
>
> Cheers,
> Craig
> 7Q

--
Dan, 5J

[Andy Blackburn[_3_]]

No Trig TT21? Isn’t that a valid TABS device?

Andy

[Darryl Ramm]

I highly recommend folks run these reports for their gliders with ADS-B Out installs, both 2020 Compliant and TABS installs.

But if if you glider has a SIL=1 TABS install the report will flag multiple GPS source integrity errors, that is normal. NIC, NACp, SIL, SDA will be flagged/marked red. For TABS make sure SIL and SDA show up as an average of 1.0 in the Integrity and Accuracy table

If your glider has a SIL=3 2020 Compliant install it should not be flagged for anything.

Make sure the install SIL level is appropriate for your glider, you cannot use a TN72 with SIL=3 in a certified glider. And yes it will get discovered easily by the FAA (no ADS-B Out '337 on file for that aircraft).

The ADS-B performance report is a useful report to check everything is OK, aircraft type is glider, ICAO ID is correct, N-number is correct etc. If you are doing a TABS install in any type of glider, or a 2020 Compliant install in an experimental glider there is no formal notice/verification action to the FAA required.

For a 2020 Compliant ADS-B Out install in a type certified glider (with a TN70+TT22 not a TN72 GPS Source, and not a TT21 transponder) your A&P IA needs to submit a '337 for the ADS-B Out install, based on the existing Peregrine/TT22 STC (available for free via Trig dealers). That certified aircraft install would normally include a formal verification flight (not required for any other installs mentioned above). A&P IA who want to navigate the details can start with FAA Policy N 8900.362. Yes it says it's expired, no it's not and is still in effect. This is what guides every FSDO with ADS-B Out installs. Glider owners should probably find a glider A&P IA who knows what they are doing here or willing to learn vs. trying to contact a FSDO themselves to ask questions.

https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/orders_notices/index.cfm/go/document.information/documentID/1029526

[Darryl Ramm]

On Tuesday, March 6, 2018 at 5:11:59 PM UTC-8, Andy Blackburn wrote:
> No Trig TT21? Isn’t that a valid TABS device?
>
> Andy

These reports were not designed for TABS devices, they are for 2020 CompliantADS-B Out devices which the TT21 is *not*.

But if you have a TT21 and doing a check yourself on your TABS system I just say it's a TT22 and then in the comments section say its really a TT21 configured for TABS/TCO-C199 and that this install is not seeking to comply with 14 CFR 21.225/227.

Even if its a TT22 but configured for TABS in a type certified glider I would also make a note that this is a TABS/TCO-C199 and is not seeking to comply with 14 CFR 21.225/227.

These reports will likely eventually noticed by FSDO staff and they might not understand TABS, if they do reach out to you use that as a chance to educate them/point them at TSO-C199. Or just point them at me, I'm happy to help.

[Darryl Ramm]

On Tuesday, March 6, 2018 at 5:29:56 PM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 6, 2018 at 5:11:59 PM UTC-8, Andy Blackburn wrote:
> > No Trig TT21? Isn’t that a valid TABS device?
> >
> > Andy
>
> These reports were not designed for TABS devices, they are for 2020 CompliantADS-B Out devices which the TT21 is *not*.
>
> But if you have a TT21 and doing a check yourself on your TABS system I just say it's a TT22 and then in the comments section say its really a TT21 configured for TABS/TCO-C199 and that this install is not seeking to comply with 14 CFR 21.225/227.
>
> Even if its a TT22 but configured for TABS in a type certified glider I would also make a note that this is a TABS/TCO-C199 and is not seeking to comply with 14 CFR 21.225/227.
>
> These reports will likely eventually noticed by FSDO staff and they might not understand TABS, if they do reach out to you use that as a chance to educate them/point them at TSO-C199. Or just point them at me, I'm happy to help.

[Darryl Ramm]

On Tuesday, March 6, 2018 at 5:29:56 PM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 6, 2018 at 5:11:59 PM UTC-8, Andy Blackburn wrote:
> > No Trig TT21? Isn’t that a valid TABS device?
> >
> > Andy
>
> These reports were not designed for TABS devices, they are for 2020 CompliantADS-B Out devices which the TT21 is *not*.
>
> But if you have a TT21 and doing a check yourself on your TABS system I just say it's a TT22 and then in the comments section say its really a TT21 configured for TABS/TCO-C199 and that this install is not seeking to comply with 14 CFR 21.225/227.
>
> Even if its a TT22 but configured for TABS in a type certified glider I would also make a note that this is a TABS/TCO-C199 and is not seeking to comply with 14 CFR 21.225/227.
>
> These reports will likely eventually noticed by FSDO staff and they might not understand TABS, if they do reach out to you use that as a chance to educate them/point them at TSO-C199. Or just point them at me, I'm happy to help.

Grr I meant 91.225/227 not 21.blah.

[JS[_5_]]

On Tuesday, March 6, 2018 at 6:02:43 PM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 6, 2018 at 5:29:56 PM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > On Tuesday, March 6, 2018 at 5:11:59 PM UTC-8, Andy Blackburn wrote:
> > > No Trig TT21? Isn’t that a valid TABS device?
> > >
> > > Andy
> >
> > These reports were not designed for TABS devices, they are for 2020 CompliantADS-B Out devices which the TT21 is *not*.
> >
> > But if you have a TT21 and doing a check yourself on your TABS system I just say it's a TT22 and then in the comments section say its really a TT21 configured for TABS/TCO-C199 and that this install is not seeking to comply with 14 CFR 21.225/227.
> >
> > Even if its a TT22 but configured for TABS in a type certified glider I would also make a note that this is a TABS/TCO-C199 and is not seeking to comply with 14 CFR 21.225/227.
> >
> > These reports will likely eventually noticed by FSDO staff and they might not understand TABS, if they do reach out to you use that as a chance to educate them/point them at TSO-C199. Or just point them at me, I'm happy to help.
>
> Grr I meant 91.225/227 not 21.blah.

220, 221... Whatever it takes.
Jim

[Dan Marotta]

On 3/6/2018 6:29 PM, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> if they do reach out to you use that as a chance to educate them/point them at TSO-C199. Or just point them at me, I'm happy to help.
Who are you Darryl?

We've gotten a lot of good advice and information from you, and that's
much appreciated.Â* So is this a hobby for you or are you with the FAA,
an avionics supplier, consultant on the program, etc.? Your knowledge on
the subject seems vast.

Best,
--
Dan, 5J

[son_of_flubber]

On Wednesday, March 7, 2018 at 10:03:49 AM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
> On 3/6/2018 6:29 PM, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > if they do reach out to you use that as a chance to educate them/point them at TSO-C199. Or just point them at me, I'm happy to help.
> Who are you Darryl?


http://ssaconvention.org/speakers/darryl-ramm/

[Andy Blackburn[_3_]]

On Tuesday, March 6, 2018 at 8:29:56 PM UTC-5, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 6, 2018 at 5:11:59 PM UTC-8, Andy Blackburn wrote:
> > No Trig TT21? Isn’t that a valid TABS device?
> >
> > Andy
>
> These reports were not designed for TABS devices, they are for 2020 CompliantADS-B Out devices which the TT21 is *not*.
>
> But if you have a TT21 and doing a check yourself on your TABS system I just say it's a TT22 and then in the comments section say its really a TT21 configured for TABS/TCO-C199 and that this install is not seeking to comply with 14 CFR 21.225/227.
>
> Even if its a TT22 but configured for TABS in a type certified glider I would also make a note that this is a TABS/TCO-C199 and is not seeking to comply with 14 CFR 21.225/227.
>
> These reports will likely eventually noticed by FSDO staff and they might not understand TABS, if they do reach out to you use that as a chance to educate them/point them at TSO-C199. Or just point them at me, I'm happy to help.

Thanks - I figured there must be a workaround. Gonna get me a TN-72 now..

Andy

[jfitch]

On Wednesday, March 7, 2018 at 7:03:49 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
> On 3/6/2018 6:29 PM, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > if they do reach out to you use that as a chance to educate them/point them at TSO-C199. Or just point them at me, I'm happy to help.
> Who are you Darryl?
>
> We've gotten a lot of good advice and information from you, and that's
> much appreciated.Â* So is this a hobby for you or are you with the FAA,
> an avionics supplier, consultant on the program, etc.? Your knowledge on
> the subject seems vast.
>
> Best,
> --
> Dan, 5J

It's not a hobby for Darryl, its a Calling. Like religion :). He's an evangelist. Some say a Faith Healer. He'll just lay his hands on your glider and BAM! its got ADS-B.

[Darryl Ramm]

On Wednesday, March 7, 2018 at 9:03:29 AM UTC-8, jfitch wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 7, 2018 at 7:03:49 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > On 3/6/2018 6:29 PM, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > > if they do reach out to you use that as a chance to educate them/point them at TSO-C199. Or just point them at me, I'm happy to help.
> > Who are you Darryl?
> >
> > We've gotten a lot of good advice and information from you, and that's
> > much appreciated.Â* So is this a hobby for you or are you with the FAA,
> > an avionics supplier, consultant on the program, etc.? Your knowledge on
> > the subject seems vast.
> >
> > Best,
> > --
> > Dan, 5J
>
> It's not a hobby for Darryl, its a Calling. Like religion :). He's an evangelist. Some say a Faith Healer. He'll just lay his hands on your glider and BAM! its got ADS-B.

I know you are joking, but lets be a bit careful, I have tried to articulate that transponders and/or PowerFLARM are important first considerations for many folks, and that ADS-B Out may be a helpful thing for glider pilots more concerned about GA traffic.

The Trig TN72 GPS source is a pretty compelling relatively low-cost add-on for owners with a Trig TT21 or TT22 transponder in their glider today, likely a "just do it" upgrade for many. And certainly ADS-B out installs are starting to happen... including full 2020 compliant installs for folks who need ADS-B Out in gliders for flight in Class A airspace after January 1 2020.. I hope to share more information about some of those interesting ADS-B Out installs in future... BUT...

.... I hope folks do not lose sight of the importance of PowerFLARM for glider-glider and glider-towplane threats and basic transponder use near airliners, fast jets and (often) military traffic threats. I'm very glad to see glider owners flying near busy airliner/fast jet airspace buying used Mode C transponders for ~$600 and installing them in their gliders.