Flarm collision alert from Tow Plane ADS-B

[[email protected]]

Now that our club tow plane has installed ADS-B out, I’m getting a constant collision alert on my S80, Flarm butterfly and Qudie while on tow. Is there any way to silence the collision alarm while on tow without turning off ADS-B targets on Flarm all together. I like seeing ADS-B targets while flying in congested areas. It would be nice is there was a way to identify specific ADS-B IDs that should not be reported like tow planes. It’s bad enough to just see the Flarm collision alert screen with the red 12 o’clock the whole time on tow, but having the constant beeping is just too much to tolerate.

[jfitch]

On Friday, March 16, 2018 at 2:42:59 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> Now that our club tow plane has installed ADS-B out, I’m getting a constant collision alert on my S80, Flarm butterfly and Qudie while on tow. Is there any way to silence the collision alarm while on tow without turning off ADS-B targets on Flarm all together. I like seeing ADS-B targets while flying in congested areas. It would be nice is there was a way to identify specific ADS-B IDs that should not be reported like tow planes. It’s bad enough to just see the Flarm collision alert screen with the red 12 o’clock the whole time on tow, but having the constant beeping is just too much to tolerate.

I don't know what the answer is, but masking all tow planes all the time is probably not a good one. There have been a few collisions between tow planes and gliders, those are ones you really want to avoid.

[son_of_flubber]

On Friday, March 16, 2018 at 5:42:59 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> It’s bad enough to just see the Flarm collision alert screen with the red 12 o’clock the whole time on tow, but having the constant beeping is just too much to tolerate.

What about turning the volume down until you're off tow? If you hook up an external speaker, you could use a SPST switch?

I agree that you don't want to block alerts on the tow plane and you don't want the tow plane to turn off ADS-B out during tow.

[George Haeh]

If the towplane has [Power] Flarm, the relevant Flarm parameters are:

Transponder - Mode S
ICAO ID
Aircraft Type - Towplane

Mind you if the towplane installed UAT, Flarm won't see the ADS-B.

[jfitch]

On Friday, March 16, 2018 at 7:45:06 PM UTC-7, George Haeh wrote:
> If the towplane has [Power] Flarm, the relevant Flarm parameters are:
>
> Transponder - Mode S
> ICAO ID
> Aircraft Type - Towplane
>
> Mind you if the towplane installed UAT, Flarm won't see the ADS-B.

That's for the towplane flarm. My understanding is that this towplane doesn't have flarm, it has ADS-B out. Flarm might be smart enough not to consider a towplane going the same direction 200 ft ahead as a threat, but would not know anything about an ADS-B target. Perhaps this is a request we need to make of the Flarm people - if you could add an ICAO address to the Flarm net data base, Flarm could ID the towplane and do the right thing.

[Darryl Ramm]

You can add a 1090ES only entry to the FlarmNet database today, and that may help display target IDs in a more friendly way. I don’t have any idea if it makes a difference to actual target handling,

[jfitch]

On Saturday, March 17, 2018 at 9:18:58 AM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> You can add a 1090ES only entry to the FlarmNet database today, and that may help display target IDs in a more friendly way. I don’t have any idea if it makes a difference to actual target handling,

So, the assignment for the OP is to try it and report back - more people are going to be having this issue.

[MNLou]

I have almost the same set up - Flarm => S8 => Oudie 2 and the same problem with tow planes.

I set the Oudie volume to 20% as part of my pre-flight and leave it there until I get off tow. At a comfortable time thereafter, I change the Oudie volume to 80% - which is the normal volume I like.

I find the screen touches to do that are quite easy.

That's worked decently for about 2 years now.

In another glider that had Flarm wired to an on / off switch, we just didn't turn the Flarm on until we were off of tow.

YMMV -

Lou

[kirk.stant]

On Friday, March 16, 2018 at 4:42:59 PM UTC-5, wrote:
>(snipped) Is there any way to silence the collision alarm while on tow without turning off ADS-B targets on Flarm all together.

Take shorter tows?

66

[[email protected]]

On Friday, March 16, 2018 at 9:42:59 PM UTC, wrote:
> Now that our club tow plane has installed ADS-B out, I’m getting a constant collision alert on my S80, Flarm butterfly and Qudie while on tow. Is there any way to silence the collision alarm while on tow without turning off ADS-B targets on Flarm all together. I like seeing ADS-B targets while flying in congested areas. It would be nice is there was a way to identify specific ADS-B IDs that should not be reported like tow planes. It’s bad enough to just see the Flarm collision alert screen with the red 12 o’clock the whole time on tow, but having the constant beeping is just too much to tolerate.



I don't know what the answer is, but masking all tow planes all the time is probably not a good one. "There have been a few collisions between tow planes and gliders, those are ones you really want to avoid."

Do you mean at crowded contests or a one off tow or a commercial site with concurrect tows, or what? And where?

[jfitch]

On Saturday, March 17, 2018 at 7:01:12 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Friday, March 16, 2018 at 9:42:59 PM UTC, wrote:
> > Now that our club tow plane has installed ADS-B out, I’m getting a constant collision alert on my S80, Flarm butterfly and Qudie while on tow. Is there any way to silence the collision alarm while on tow without turning off ADS-B targets on Flarm all together. I like seeing ADS-B targets while flying in congested areas. It would be nice is there was a way to identify specific ADS-B IDs that should not be reported like tow planes. It’s bad enough to just see the Flarm collision alert screen with the red 12 o’clock the whole time on tow, but having the constant beeping is just too much to tolerate.
>
>
>
> I don't know what the answer is, but masking all tow planes all the time is probably not a good one. "There have been a few collisions between tow planes and gliders, those are ones you really want to avoid."
>
> Do you mean at crowded contests or a one off tow or a commercial site with concurrect tows, or what? And where?

One off tow at a commercial site, not crowded at all, is the one I'm thinking about. A few near misses at others. At any gliderport, tow planes and gliders operate in close proximity. Your chance of midair collision is higher with a two plane than anything else. That's what's flying around. Not just the one you are following on a rope.

https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/ReportGeneratorFile.ashx?EventID=20091128X53127&AKey=2&RType=HTML&IType=FA

[Nick Kennedy]

Reading that accident report from Crazycreek soaring made me sad. A radio in the towplane should have easily prevented that accident. So simple and inexpensive too. When I flew at another major gliderport in southern California a few years ago I was really surprised when they told me don't do a radio check, the tug doesn't have a radio. That seemed so archaic to me. Why not? A simple radio call can sort out alot of small problems that can blossom into major problems.
Do any gliderports still operate without radios in the towplanes?

[son_of_flubber]

On a related note, what happens when two gliders in a gaggle have ADS-B-out (or TABS)?

Scenarios:

1. Both gliders have ADS-B-out and Powerflarm flavor of ADS-B-in. Does Powerflarm filter spurious ADS-B collision alerts?

2. Glider 1 has ADS-B-out, no Powerflarm, and non-Powerflarm ADS-B-in

Glider 2 has ADS-B-out and Powerflarm flavor ADS-B-in

Does Glider 1 get spurious ADS-B collision alerts?

3. Both gliders have ADS-B-out, no Powerflarm, and non-Powerflarm ADS-B-in

Do both gliders get spurious ADS-B collision alerts?

[Ramy[_2_]]

I don’t see the option to enter ADS-B info in flarmnet. This could be useful though. Or perhaps flarm displays already recognize the contest ID for an ADSB target if their flarm already registered in flarmnet?

Ramy

[Darryl Ramm]

On Sunday, March 18, 2018 at 9:15:29 AM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
> I don’t see the option to enter ADS-B info in flarmnet. This could be useful though. Or perhaps flarm displays already recognize the contest ID for an ADSB target if their flarm already registered in flarmnet?
>
> Ramy

Just register as you would a Flarm and use your ICAO address as FLARM ID.

[Dan Marotta]

That's all fine and good, but I doubt that will matter to the OP whose
complaint was the constant alarm.

A glider tow is a formation flight and, in a formation flight, everyone
except the leader turns off his transponder (sets it on Standby, I'd say
the same for ADS-B and/or Flarm) to avoid mucking up the radar screens
on the ground and in the Flarm in the glider. At least that's the way it
was done when I was doing it for a living.Â* My suggestion would be for
the glider to turn off his Flarm until after releasing and gaining safe
spacing from the tug.Â* If it's a brick wired to the avionics bus, put a
switch in series with the power line.Â* Problem solved.

On 3/18/2018 9:02 PM, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> On Sunday, March 18, 2018 at 9:15:29 AM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
>> I don’t see the option to enter ADS-B info in flarmnet. This could be useful though. Or perhaps flarm displays already recognize the contest ID for an ADSB target if their flarm already registered in flarmnet?
>>
>> Ramy
> Just register as you would a Flarm and use your ICAO address as FLARM ID.

--
Dan, 5J

[jfitch]

On Monday, March 19, 2018 at 8:12:06 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> That's all fine and good, but I doubt that will matter to the OP whose
> complaint was the constant alarm.
>
> A glider tow is a formation flight and, in a formation flight, everyone
> except the leader turns off his transponder (sets it on Standby, I'd say
> the same for ADS-B and/or Flarm) to avoid mucking up the radar screens
> on the ground and in the Flarm in the glider. At least that's the way it
> was done when I was doing it for a living.Â* My suggestion would be for
> the glider to turn off his Flarm until after releasing and gaining safe
> spacing from the tug.Â* If it's a brick wired to the avionics bus, put a
> switch in series with the power line.Â* Problem solved.
>
> On 3/18/2018 9:02 PM, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > On Sunday, March 18, 2018 at 9:15:29 AM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
> >> I don’t see the option to enter ADS-B info in flarmnet. This could be useful though. Or perhaps flarm displays already recognize the contest ID for an ADSB target if their flarm already registered in flarmnet?
> >>
> >> Ramy
> > Just register as you would a Flarm and use your ICAO address as FLARM ID.
>
> --
> Dan, 5J

Flarm does not alarm when you are following another flarm equipped glider at 200 ft, so it should not following a tow plane either. If flarm uses the ICAO address it could identify the towplane as a towplane and treat it accordingly.

A switch in the power line to the Flarm isn't going to help if you are depending on it for a valid IGC flight log.

[Tango Eight]

On Monday, March 19, 2018 at 11:35:25 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:

> If flarm uses the ICAO address it could identify the towplane as a towplane and treat it accordingly.

But Flarm, in its current state of development, has no obvious way to do this. The flarmnet database resides in whatever display you are using, not in the flarm.


T8

[Dan Marotta]

I feel you pain, jfitch, but I think the OP was complaining about the
ADS-B output from the tug being alarmed on his Flarm.Â* The way everyone
complains about loggers, I'd think he'd have an alternate, as in a
vario, flight computer, portable logger, etc...

Or the OP could simply disable ADS-B targets but that would remove
protection from ADS-B equipped but non-Flarm-equipped aircraft.

Dan

On 3/19/2018 9:35 AM, jfitch wrote:
> On Monday, March 19, 2018 at 8:12:06 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> That's all fine and good, but I doubt that will matter to the OP whose
>> complaint was the constant alarm.
>>
>> A glider tow is a formation flight and, in a formation flight, everyone
>> except the leader turns off his transponder (sets it on Standby, I'd say
>> the same for ADS-B and/or Flarm) to avoid mucking up the radar screens
>> on the ground and in the Flarm in the glider. At least that's the way it
>> was done when I was doing it for a living.Â* My suggestion would be for
>> the glider to turn off his Flarm until after releasing and gaining safe
>> spacing from the tug.Â* If it's a brick wired to the avionics bus, put a
>> switch in series with the power line.Â* Problem solved.
>>
>> On 3/18/2018 9:02 PM, Darryl Ramm wrote:
>>> On Sunday, March 18, 2018 at 9:15:29 AM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
>>>> I don’t see the option to enter ADS-B info in flarmnet. This could be useful though. Or perhaps flarm displays already recognize the contest ID for an ADSB target if their flarm already registered in flarmnet?
>>>>
>>>> Ramy
>>> Just register as you would a Flarm and use your ICAO address as FLARM ID.
>> --
>> Dan, 5J
> Flarm does not alarm when you are following another flarm equipped glider at 200 ft, so it should not following a tow plane either. If flarm uses the ICAO address it could identify the towplane as a towplane and treat it accordingly.
>
> A switch in the power line to the Flarm isn't going to help if you are depending on it for a valid IGC flight log.

--
Dan, 5J

[Dirk_PW[_2_]]

I'm having a similar problem with just a mode-c transponder in the towplane.. I'm not getting a 'collision' warning per se, but the S80 does indicate a xpndr equipped aircraft is in close proximity. The issue with this is that the display is simply locked out from all other functions during the entire tow. That is, there is no way to get your vario display back until after the tow and the aircraft exceeds the threat threshold. This 'problem' also occurs when flying close to xpdr equipped gliders. I had caught up to a friend that had a mode-c xpdr and we flew together for over an hour. During the whole time, the S80 displayed the xpdr traffic page and I couldn't navigate past it to see any other pages. I had to ask my friend to turn off his transponder while we were flying together. It would be nice if the instrument had an "acknowledge" feature where I could suppress the alert for some configurable period of time so I can get access to the rest of the vario features (similar to the way modern computers handle airspace warnings). I want to tell the computer... "I see the traffic, now go away for 5 minutes", but I don't want to turn it off permanently, however for obvious reasons.

Has anyone else experienced this and have a solution?

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

Sounds like submitting a "bug fix" to your MFR.
While they can think of lots of things, sometimes users bring up a worthwhile suggestion/fix.

Taken from a "beta boy" (field service) for a company. Service tried out things, we made suggestions to the programmer, sometimes we had to "prove a need", but he was great to work with.

YMMV.......

[[email protected]]

I wired my Flarm with double pole, 3 position switch. The first pole powers the brick and the second pole powers the Flarmview display. In the middle position, the PowerFlarm Core is on, but the display is off. In the full up position both are On. This allows me to kill the display without turning off my Flarm which provides Flarm visibility to others.

Mark

[Mike Schumann[_2_]]

On Monday, March 19, 2018 at 11:26:16 AM UTC-5, Dirk_PW wrote:
> I'm having a similar problem with just a mode-c transponder in the towplane. I'm not getting a 'collision' warning per se, but the S80 does indicate a xpndr equipped aircraft is in close proximity. The issue with this is that the display is simply locked out from all other functions during the entire tow. That is, there is no way to get your vario display back until after the tow and the aircraft exceeds the threat threshold. This 'problem' also occurs when flying close to xpdr equipped gliders. I had caught up to a friend that had a mode-c xpdr and we flew together for over an hour. During the whole time, the S80 displayed the xpdr traffic page and I couldn't navigate past it to see any other pages. I had to ask my friend to turn off his transponder while we were flying together. It would be nice if the instrument had an "acknowledge" feature where I could suppress the alert for some configurable period of time so I can get access to the rest of the vario features (similar to the way modern computers handle airspace warnings). I want to tell the computer... "I see the traffic, now go away for 5 minutes", but I don't want to turn it off permanently, however for obvious reasons.
>
> Has anyone else experienced this and have a solution?

The FARs require that all transponder equipped aircraft have their transponders turned on whenever they are airborne.

[[email protected]]

On Monday, March 19, 2018 at 10:26:16 AM UTC-6, Dirk_PW wrote:
> I'm having a similar problem with just a mode-c transponder in the towplane. I'm not getting a 'collision' warning per se, but the S80 does indicate a xpndr equipped aircraft is in close proximity. The issue with this is that the display is simply locked out from all other functions during the entire tow. That is, there is no way to get your vario display back until after the tow and the aircraft exceeds the threat threshold. This 'problem' also occurs when flying close to xpdr equipped gliders. I had caught up to a friend that had a mode-c xpdr and we flew together for over an hour. During the whole time, the S80 displayed the xpdr traffic page and I couldn't navigate past it to see any other pages. I had to ask my friend to turn off his transponder while we were flying together. It would be nice if the instrument had an "acknowledge" feature where I could suppress the alert for some configurable period of time so I can get access to the rest of the vario features (similar to the way modern computers handle airspace warnings). I want to tell the computer... "I see the traffic, now go away for 5 minutes", but I don't want to turn it off permanently, however for obvious reasons.
>
> Has anyone else experienced this and have a solution?

I like the idea of an "acknowledge" feature similar to airspace warnings on the LXNav S80. I've sent LXNav a comment on this problem with ADS-B out. Let see what they say... I'm also using the Flarm as my GPS source to the S80 and Oudie, so turning it off during tow is not a good option for me.

[kirk.stant]

On Monday, March 19, 2018 at 3:52:28 PM UTC-5, Mike Schumann wrote:

> The FARs require that all transponder equipped aircraft have their transponders turned on whenever they are airborne.

Actually, no; as Dan has pointed out, when aircraft are in formation (which is a specific case - not just a bunch of aircraft in the same area, like a gaggle), only the flight lead is supposed to have his transponder on; the rest are supposed to be in standby. In pre-Mode S days this was essential as multiple Mode 3s responding in the same area at the same time would overwhelm the SSR system at worst and trigger all sorts of collision alarms at best.

When the formation breaks up, the wingmen are then supposed to turn on their transponders. Releasing from tow is breaking up the tow formation, so...

This applies to all military and civilian formation flights.

Kirk
66

[Darryl Ramm]

On Tuesday, March 20, 2018 at 7:10:48 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
> On Monday, March 19, 2018 at 3:52:28 PM UTC-5, Mike Schumann wrote:
>
> > The FARs require that all transponder equipped aircraft have their transponders turned on whenever they are airborne.
>
> Actually, no; as Dan has pointed out, when aircraft are in formation (which is a specific case - not just a bunch of aircraft in the same area, like a gaggle), only the flight lead is supposed to have his transponder on; the rest are supposed to be in standby. In pre-Mode S days this was essential as multiple Mode 3s responding in the same area at the same time would overwhelm the SSR system at worst and trigger all sorts of collision alarms at best.
>
> When the formation breaks up, the wingmen are then supposed to turn on their transponders. Releasing from tow is breaking up the tow formation, so....
>
> This applies to all military and civilian formation flights.
>
> Kirk
> 66

The technical need for the leader only squawking is partially folklore by now. Modern radar can decorelate multiple overlapping Mode C only targets, and absolutely see multiple Mode S targets. A direct result of the S for selective interrogation in the Mode S name. Wether an ATC controller might prefer to see one target for a formation flight, and not want to have spurious warnings on their display is a different question.

When I've asked Reno area NORCAL TRACON folks if they would want "formation flights" of gliders or GA aircraft to only squawk leader they said no.

ADS-B Out goes even further and targets will not "step on each other".

I would not be turning off any transponder or ADS-B Out systems unless specifically instructed to by ATC or you had a prior arrangement with them where it has been made clear they want this. And unsure, ask them.

[Darryl Ramm]

On Monday, March 19, 2018 at 9:49:09 AM UTC-7, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> Sounds like submitting a "bug fix" to your MFR.
> While they can think of lots of things, sometimes users bring up a worthwhile suggestion/fix.
>
> Taken from a "beta boy" (field service) for a company. Service tried out things, we made suggestions to the programmer, sometimes we had to "prove a need", but he was great to work with.
>
> YMMV.......

Yes please.

Turning off and on safety equipment is yet another distraction, and yet another thing to forget to do, and PowerFLARM should actually be very useful on tow. If the towplane is not PowerFLARM equipped then that towplane pilot is not getting warned about FLARM equipped gliders in the area, and so you want the glider pilot who does have PowerFLARM to be on the radio if needed to warn the towplane. Does the towplane have ADS-B In? If not then the PowerFLARM in the glider is also standing guard against 1090ES Out equipped GA aircraft the tow pilot may not see. Remember that triple fatality Cirrus and Towplane/glider middair in the Denver area? It is getting more and more likely now that a similar GA aircraft will have 1090ES Out. Turning off safety equipment is a last resort, lets start by checking first if there is something that could be setup better here, or if not then help FLARM reduce the problem.

If if has not been already can the OP here please submit a report to your PowerFLARM dealer and they can make sure that gets to FLARM support. Include in that all the relevant information you can, including: A clear description of exactly how/what/when the glider pilot sees an alarm (like in the original post above). An IGC log file from the PowerFLARM. The PowerFLARM config file from the glider. What local transponder if any is in the glider. Details of the transponder and ADS-B Out in the towplane (find all it's ADS-B out settings, esp. aircraft type, ICAO address etc.) and/or include a FAA ADS-B report for the towplane from here... https://adsbperformance.faa.gov/PAPRRequest.aspx. There are configuration things listed there that FLARM may want to know. (I'm assuming this is in the USA..).

[kirk.stant]

On Tuesday, March 20, 2018 at 10:13:23 AM UTC-5, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 20, 2018 at 7:10:48 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
> > On Monday, March 19, 2018 at 3:52:28 PM UTC-5, Mike Schumann wrote:
> >
> > > The FARs require that all transponder equipped aircraft have their transponders turned on whenever they are airborne.
> >
> > Actually, no; as Dan has pointed out, when aircraft are in formation (which is a specific case - not just a bunch of aircraft in the same area, like a gaggle), only the flight lead is supposed to have his transponder on; the rest are supposed to be in standby. In pre-Mode S days this was essential as multiple Mode 3s responding in the same area at the same time would overwhelm the SSR system at worst and trigger all sorts of collision alarms at best.
> >
> > When the formation breaks up, the wingmen are then supposed to turn on their transponders. Releasing from tow is breaking up the tow formation, so...
> >
> > This applies to all military and civilian formation flights.
> >
> > Kirk
> > 66
>
> The technical need for the leader only squawking is partially folklore by now. Modern radar can decorelate multiple overlapping Mode C only targets, and absolutely see multiple Mode S targets. A direct result of the S for selective interrogation in the Mode S name. Wether an ATC controller might prefer to see one target for a formation flight, and not want to have spurious warnings on their display is a different question.
>
> When I've asked Reno area NORCAL TRACON folks if they would want "formation flights" of gliders or GA aircraft to only squawk leader they said no.
>
> ADS-B Out goes even further and targets will not "step on each other".
>
> I would not be turning off any transponder or ADS-B Out systems unless specifically instructed to by ATC or you had a prior arrangement with them where it has been made clear they want this. And unsure, ask them.

Understood - that's why I used the caveat "pre-Mode S". But the problem still applies if you have a Mode C backing up your ADS-B, right? And definitely still applies to most military jets until they all get updated to Mode S/ADS-B.

As usual, the devil is in the details - how many civilian flights or all-glider flight are really "formations"? Towing is about the only common (?) case, and that is not usually going very high or into congested airspace.

I seriously doubt ATW would want everyone in a 16-ship formation of RV-6s to have their Mode 3/C on!

Kirk

[Dirk_PW[_2_]]

Campbell,

Please post what you get back from LXNav about the handling of FLARM alerts.. I doubt the ADS-B alerts are a concern, but regular mode-C equipped gliders flying with you will 'jam' your vario (i.e. you can't push any buttons to get rid of the alert short of turning off the alerts entirely from the config page - or having your buddy turn off their xpdr). BTW, that is exactly how I am solving this problem, I've turned off FLARM alerts on the vario.. I have a FLARM LED and an Oudie still getting FLARM inputs so I don't really need it displayed on the vario also. It is unfortunate because I like the way the S80 displays FLARM and ADS-B targets that are not an immediate threat. Hopefully they can offer a suppression mechanism (for mode-c xpdr traffic specifically) in a future software release. I have been very impressed with their customer support so far.

[Ramy[_2_]]

Dirk, Campbell,

I reported the mode C issue to LXNAV and after few back and forth I managed to convince them this is a real problem and not user error, and they promised to fix it in the next release. So far I found the LXNav folks to be very responsive, so I expect a fix soon.
I also just reported the tow plane ADSB problem as I experienced it as well, hopefully they will come up with a solution for that as well.
The best way to resolve these sorts of issues is to report the issue to the manufacture of your device, not just RAS. They normally don’t read RAS.

Ramy

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, March 20, 2018 at 2:16:55 PM UTC-6, Dirk_PW wrote:
> Campbell,
>
> Please post what you get back from LXNav about the handling of FLARM alerts. I doubt the ADS-B alerts are a concern, but regular mode-C equipped gliders flying with you will 'jam' your vario (i.e. you can't push any buttons to get rid of the alert short of turning off the alerts entirely from the config page - or having your buddy turn off their xpdr). BTW, that is exactly how I am solving this problem, I've turned off FLARM alerts on the vario. I have a FLARM LED and an Oudie still getting FLARM inputs so I don't really need it displayed on the vario also. It is unfortunate because I like the way the S80 displays FLARM and ADS-B targets that are not an immediate threat. Hopefully they can offer a suppression mechanism (for mode-c xpdr traffic specifically) in a future software release. I have been very impressed with their customer support so far.

I have provided details of the ADS-B Flarm alert problem to both Flarm and LXVav. I'll let you know what they say on this problem.

[Darryl Ramm]

On Thursday, March 22, 2018 at 11:19:28 AM UTC-7, Mike Schumann wrote:
> On Thursday, March 22, 2018 at 12:19:04 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> > I have received the following from Flarm Technology and LXNav:
> >
> > Flarm Technology response:
> >
> > "This makes it really hard to deal with the situation nicely. Consider that you do want to have alarms from tow planes in some situations, but not in the tow. FLARM handles this correctly by sending meta-information on the aircraft (tow plane vs. glider). This data is unfortunately not present on ADS-B.
> >
> > Really the only advice I can offer to install a FLARM on the tow plane (can be cheap, may not need a display etc.)"
> >
> > Good new on gliders with Flarm and ADS-B out:
> >
> > "If the aircraft type and addresses are correctly configured, then the alarm should be suppressed (FLARM signals get precedence in calculating threats over ADS-B)."
> >
> > LXNav response:
> >
> > "Sxxx vario or any flarm display are displaying collision warnings, which are transmitted from flarm. Flarm device is the "smart one" in this case, and decides, when warinign is necessary and what will be the level of that warning."
> >
> > "Because a lot of pilots sometimes don't want to be annoyed with flarm warnings, we mace "cancel or dismiss" button. That is lower rotary knob, which has dismiss function, if flarm warning is appeared on Sxxx vario. With pushing that button, you will dismiss rarnings for YY seconds. You can set that value in the bottom of setup-warnings-flarm menu.
> > After first warning, you will press lower knob, and you will not get any more warnings for so many seconds as you have set in the setup."
> >
> > "Dismissing warning has nothing to do with level of flarm warning."
> >
> > "If you want to cancel them for 5 minutes, just det dismiss time to 300seconds."
> >
> > I'll give the above a try on my next flight.
>
> This is just another example of the half baked implementation of ADS-B in PowerFlarm.
>
> Granted, ADS-B does not transmit velocity vectors like FLARM does, but that does not prevent the ADS-B receivers from tracking ADS-B targets and computing the vector information on the receiver side. All of the regular ADS-B receivers on the market in the US do this in order to intelligently predict traffic warnings only when a collision threat is real.
>
> The other problem with PowerFlarm is that they have not implemented a UAT receiver or TIS-B or ADS-R support. As a result, you don't see any UAT equipped aircraft, nor do you get an accurate position report from transponder equipped aircraft that don't have ADS-B OUT systems.

Oh hell it's UAT boy again. Nice tights and cape....

The issue here that FLARM is pointing out is that their system does not know the aircraft is a towplane, not calculating the aircraft vector. A wonderful test for the problem situation would be to put a PowerFLARM portable in the towplane and see what happens.

No ADS-B receiver gets close to being usable like FLARM is on close glider-glider situations, so I have no idea what you are talking about. And I am pretty sure you don't either.

And in the meantime that imperfect FLARM technology is helping make things safer for many glider pilots in the USA and elsewhere. If we kept listening to the uniformed rambling from you we'd likely had more dead glider pilots.. The good news is that with your ramblings over the years I hope that everybody reading r.a.s. has worked out you have no clue what you are talking about.

And TIS-B and ADS-R support, yes its an issue to be aware of if pilots have ADS-B Out. And that is just staring to happen. And FLARM is well aware of that and looking at possible options for adding that support (so not a hard promise, but they are well aware of it), as I've explained before on r.a.s..

[[email protected]]

After flying yesterday, here are my settings for my powerFlarm-LXNav S80-Oudie2.

PowerFlarm: volume set to 0%. Since there is no user interface no option but to set in batch file.

S80: set dismiss time to max of 120 seconds (I’m going to ask LXNav to increase allowable time setting). Change warning from beep to voice and lower volume before launch. Push lower rotary knob every 2 minutes to dismiss alert. This also suppresses alerts going to Oudie.

Oudie: adjust volume as needed.

GC