View Full Version : Proposed SZD-55 EASA AD now out for comment - "Flight Controls – Elevator Control System / Vertical Tail – Inspection"
Dan Daly[_2_]
March 23rd 18, 05:01 PM
Comment period ends 5 April. It would require an inspection within 60 days to ensure the elevator control attachment slot on the vertical stab be measured. One which caused a fatal crash in UK last year was found to have been enlarged. If the cut-out has been enlarged, the factory must be informed and it would have to be fixed before the next flight. Details at https://ad..easa.europa.eu/ad/18-038 , including a link for the AD as a PDF.
From a comment on the SZD-55 Yahoo! Group (my group but not my comment):
"From various informal discussions I have had, there seems to be potential for significant variation in the size of the elevator slot on different aircraft. If this is the case, I would expect a large number of owners who are subject to EASA regulations to have to modify their aircraft within 60 days if they are to remain airworthy."
I don't know if the U.S. treats EASA AD's like Canada, but up here, they apply. I know of two 55's which have been informally measured and happily found to be unaltered; they will still require a quick look and logbook entry by our mechanic.
Jonathan St. Cloud
March 23rd 18, 11:18 PM
For those that wonder why do positive control checks with automatic hookups..
On Friday, March 23, 2018 at 10:01:15 AM UTC-7, Dan Daly wrote:
> Comment period ends 5 April. It would require an inspection within 60 days to ensure the elevator control attachment slot on the vertical stab be measured. One which caused a fatal crash in UK last year was found to have been enlarged. If the cut-out has been enlarged, the factory must be informed and it would have to be fixed before the next flight. Details at https://ad.easa.europa.eu/ad/18-038 , including a link for the AD as a PDF.
>
> From a comment on the SZD-55 Yahoo! Group (my group but not my comment):
> "From various informal discussions I have had, there seems to be potential for significant variation in the size of the elevator slot on different aircraft. If this is the case, I would expect a large number of owners who are subject to EASA regulations to have to modify their aircraft within 60 days if they are to remain airworthy."
>
> I don't know if the U.S. treats EASA AD's like Canada, but up here, they apply. I know of two 55's which have been informally measured and happily found to be unaltered; they will still require a quick look and logbook entry by our mechanic.
son_of_flubber
March 24th 18, 12:17 AM
On Friday, March 23, 2018 at 1:01:15 PM UTC-4, Dan Daly wrote:
> It would require an inspection within 60 days to ensure the elevator control attachment slot on the vertical stab be measured. One which caused a fatal crash in UK last year was found to have been enlarged. If the cut-out has been enlarged, the factory must be informed and it would have to be fixed before the next flight.
I'll rephrase this just in case someone else has trouble understanding statements written in the passive voice.
Somebody cut away FRP material and enlarged a hole in the top of the vertical stabilizer of a SZD-55. This modification makes it possible for the pilot to assemble the glider such that he ends up with an inoperative elevator control linkage.
Why would someone do that? Can a 55 owner provide some context? Is there some rigging difficulty they were trying to resolve?
Dan Daly[_2_]
March 24th 18, 01:07 PM
On Saturday, March 24, 2018 at 1:37:36 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> Why would someone do that? Can a 55 owner provide some context? Is there some rigging difficulty they were trying to resolve?
The UK Air Accidents Investigation Branch published a thorough 22 page report. https://www.gov.uk/aaib-reports/aaib-investigation-to-szd-55-1-g-cklr
son_of_flubber
March 24th 18, 02:15 PM
On Saturday, March 24, 2018 at 9:07:25 AM UTC-4, Dan Daly wrote:
> The UK Air Accidents Investigation Branch published a thorough 22 page report. https://www.gov.uk/aaib-reports/aaib-investigation-to-szd-55-1-g-cklr
From that report:
"In a photograph taken in July 2006 while this repair was being carried out, the enlarged elevator lever slot in the horizontal rib of the tail fin is clearly visible, indicating that it had been modified prior to this point."
'Accident waiting to happen' for 12 years.
When I bought my SZD glider, I found that the previous owner had removed ~10 lbs of factory installed lead ballast from the nose. The ballast mount location was hidden behind an access panel.
The horizontal stabilizer attachment on the 55 is one of the easiest designs I have seen and I never had a problem installing it. It went on perfectly and easily every time.
I have a totally unsubstantiated theory about what may have happened. I am wondering if material was removed at the 3000 hour inspection for the insertion of a borescope and never replaced?
Tragic none the less.
Bob 7U
On Saturday, March 24, 2018 at 10:15:36 AM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
> On Saturday, March 24, 2018 at 9:07:25 AM UTC-4, Dan Daly wrote:
>
> > The UK Air Accidents Investigation Branch published a thorough 22 page report. https://www.gov.uk/aaib-reports/aaib-investigation-to-szd-55-1-g-cklr
>
> From that report:
>
> "In a photograph taken in July 2006 while this repair was being carried out, the enlarged elevator lever slot in the horizontal rib of the tail fin is clearly visible, indicating that it had been modified prior to this point."
>
> 'Accident waiting to happen' for 12 years.
>
> When I bought my SZD glider, I found that the previous owner had removed ~10 lbs of factory installed lead ballast from the nose. The ballast mount location was hidden behind an access panel.
On Saturday, March 24, 2018 at 10:15:36 AM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
> When I bought my SZD glider, I found that the previous owner had removed ~10 lbs of factory installed lead ballast from the nose. The ballast mount location was hidden behind an access panel.
- when I bought my Russia it came with 9 pounds of lead shot / epoxy mix permanently mounted in the nose, hidden behind the front bulkhead panel. Thankfully the seller told me about it. (And for me flying it, I had to add even more ballast in another forward location.) Be careful with the W&B!
Jonathan St. Cloud
March 24th 18, 09:05 PM
I took delivery of a brand new Ventus 2c, had the W&B done for my weight plus chute. Took the glider for it's first flight and thank goodness it was a great soaring day as it took me about two hours to be able to control it between 45-75 knots. Turns out they figured out the correct weight, say 5 pounds, wrote it in log book, but when they actually the weight in they used Kilograms, so I had 5 kg instead of 5 lb in tail. We figured it out, but I forgot the number, I was WELL aft of the aft most CG. I agree, check W&B.
Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)
March 24th 18, 09:21 PM
Hey, great way to get current in major departure stalls/spin entries!
Yep, I did that unintentionally once.
Just once.
With the sailplane owner watching me do "over the top spin entries" at altitude.
Yes, I recovered.....sorta obvious.
Yes, most aircraft flown well beyond the aft CG limit becomes "sporty" at a minimum. Glad I figured it out at altitude.
Sigh.
Yep, ask NASA about changes in unit of measurement, they wasted a mars lander due to that......sigh.....meters vs. feet.....
You guys could just join the rest of the world and go metric! ;)
On Saturday, March 24, 2018 at 4:05:06 PM UTC-5, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> I took delivery of a brand new Ventus 2c, had the W&B done for my weight plus chute. Took the glider for it's first flight and thank goodness it was a great soaring day as it took me about two hours to be able to control it between 45-75 knots. Turns out they figured out the correct weight, say 5 pounds, wrote it in log book, but when they actually the weight in they used Kilograms, so I had 5 kg instead of 5 lb in tail. We figured it out, but I forgot the number, I was WELL aft of the aft most CG. I agree, check W&B.
>
>
> On Saturday, March 24, 2018 at 9:28:27 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> > On Saturday, March 24, 2018 at 10:15:36 AM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
> > > When I bought my SZD glider, I found that the previous owner had removed ~10 lbs of factory installed lead ballast from the nose. The ballast mount location was hidden behind an access panel.
> >
> > - when I bought my Russia it came with 9 pounds of lead shot / epoxy mix permanently mounted in the nose, hidden behind the front bulkhead panel. Thankfully the seller told me about it. (And for me flying it, I had to add even more ballast in another forward location.) Be careful with the W&B!
Earth to Dan Marotta: here's another great reason to go metric, don't ya think? Glad you survived the Kilo-Bomb, Jonathan.
AS
March 25th 18, 04:14 PM
If memory serves me right, there was a fatal accident with a SZD55 maybe a year or two ago which sounded very similar to what the British accident report summary states:
'During a towed launch, the glider was seen to climb rapidly. After disconnecting from the tow rope with a very high pitch angle, the glider rolled to the right and descended before hitting the ground in a nose-down attitude. The pilot was fatally injured.'
I cannot find the NTSB accident report for the accident in the US but it may be worth looking into it.
Uli
'AS'
Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)
March 25th 18, 04:37 PM
Worthless post.......
"There are 2 measuring systems, metric and the one that put a man on the moon".
Yes, I was in grade school (in the '70's) where, "we're going metric!" Was the battle cry.
Today, the US still uses our method, sometimes.
Yes, I have American tools, metric tools, even some Whitworth. There ya go, way throw back for the Brits.
Whatever, seems like a "fix" that created new issues. Hope this gets around to prevent more issues.
Dan Marotta
March 25th 18, 05:36 PM
Why are you telling me this, Herb?* Do you feel better about yourself by
measuring a certain part of your anatomy in mm than in inches?
BTW Johathan's near mishap would not have happened had Shemp-Hirth and
"the rest of the world" had used the English system.
On 3/25/2018 8:10 AM, wrote:
> On Saturday, March 24, 2018 at 4:05:06 PM UTC-5, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
>> I took delivery of a brand new Ventus 2c, had the W&B done for my weight plus chute. Took the glider for it's first flight and thank goodness it was a great soaring day as it took me about two hours to be able to control it between 45-75 knots. Turns out they figured out the correct weight, say 5 pounds, wrote it in log book, but when they actually the weight in they used Kilograms, so I had 5 kg instead of 5 lb in tail. We figured it out, but I forgot the number, I was WELL aft of the aft most CG. I agree, check W&B.
>>
>>
>> On Saturday, March 24, 2018 at 9:28:27 AM UTC-7, wrote:
>>> On Saturday, March 24, 2018 at 10:15:36 AM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
>>>> When I bought my SZD glider, I found that the previous owner had removed ~10 lbs of factory installed lead ballast from the nose. The ballast mount location was hidden behind an access panel.
>>> - when I bought my Russia it came with 9 pounds of lead shot / epoxy mix permanently mounted in the nose, hidden behind the front bulkhead panel. Thankfully the seller told me about it. (And for me flying it, I had to add even more ballast in another forward location.) Be careful with the W&B!
> Earth to Dan Marotta: here's another great reason to go metric, don't ya think? Glad you survived the Kilo-Bomb, Jonathan.
--
Dan, 5J
Dan Daly[_2_]
March 25th 18, 06:03 PM
On Sunday, March 25, 2018 at 11:14:57 AM UTC-4, AS wrote:
> If memory serves me right, there was a fatal accident with a SZD55 maybe a year or two ago which sounded very similar to what the British accident report summary states:
> 'During a towed launch, the glider was seen to climb rapidly. After disconnecting from the tow rope with a very high pitch angle, the glider rolled to the right and descended before hitting the ground in a nose-down attitude. The pilot was fatally injured.'
> I cannot find the NTSB accident report for the accident in the US but it may be worth looking into it.
>
> Uli
> 'AS'
Uli:
NTSB Identification: CEN16FA308
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Saturday, August 06, 2016 in Channahon, IL
Aircraft: PZL-BIELSKO SZD 55-1, registration: N551DR
Injuries: 1 Fatal.
This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed. NTSB investigators either traveled in support of this investigation or conducted a significant amount of investigative work without any travel, and used data obtained from various sources to prepare this aircraft accident report.
[A BUNCH DELETED FOR BREVITY] QUOTE ...The empennage remained intact and exhibited no damage. The wing and horizontal stabilizer attach points were attached properly and were secure. The flight controls, including the spoilers, were checked for continuity from the flight controls to their respective surfaces. Flight control cables and control tubes were traced and all breaks were consistent with overload. No preimpact flight control continuity anomalies were detected... UNQUOTE
john firth
March 25th 18, 08:09 PM
On Friday, March 23, 2018 at 1:01:15 PM UTC-4, Dan Daly wrote:
> Comment period ends 5 April. It would require an inspection within 60 days to ensure the elevator control attachment slot on the vertical stab be measured. One which caused a fatal crash in UK last year was found to have been enlarged. If the cut-out has been enlarged, the factory must be informed and it would have to be fixed before the next flight. Details at https://ad.easa.europa.eu/ad/18-038 , including a link for the AD as a PDF.
>
> From a comment on the SZD-55 Yahoo! Group (my group but not my comment):
> "From various informal discussions I have had, there seems to be potential for significant variation in the size of the elevator slot on different aircraft. If this is the case, I would expect a large number of owners who are subject to EASA regulations to have to modify their aircraft within 60 days if they are to remain airworthy."
>
> I don't know if the U.S. treats EASA AD's like Canada, but up here, they apply. I know of two 55's which have been informally measured and happily found to be unaltered; they will still require a quick look and logbook entry by our mechanic.
I believe positive control checks should be done by the pilot, at the control surface, not from the stick; that way you also get to feel the hinges as well as the drive.
John F
AS
March 25th 18, 08:44 PM
On Sunday, March 25, 2018 at 7:03:43 PM UTC+2, Dan Daly wrote:
> On Sunday, March 25, 2018 at 11:14:57 AM UTC-4, AS wrote:
> > If memory serves me right, there was a fatal accident with a SZD55 maybe a year or two ago which sounded very similar to what the British accident report summary states:
> > 'During a towed launch, the glider was seen to climb rapidly. After disconnecting from the tow rope with a very high pitch angle, the glider rolled to the right and descended before hitting the ground in a nose-down attitude. The pilot was fatally injured.'
> > I cannot find the NTSB accident report for the accident in the US but it may be worth looking into it.
> >
> > Uli
> > 'AS'
>
> Uli:
>
> NTSB Identification: CEN16FA308
> 14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
> Accident occurred Saturday, August 06, 2016 in Channahon, IL
> Aircraft: PZL-BIELSKO SZD 55-1, registration: N551DR
> Injuries: 1 Fatal.
>
> This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed. NTSB investigators either traveled in support of this investigation or conducted a significant amount of investigative work without any travel, and used data obtained from various sources to prepare this aircraft accident report.
> [A BUNCH DELETED FOR BREVITY] QUOTE ...The empennage remained intact and exhibited no damage. The wing and horizontal stabilizer attach points were attached properly and were secure. The flight controls, including the spoilers, were checked for continuity from the flight controls to their respective surfaces. Flight control cables and control tubes were traced and all breaks were consistent with overload. No preimpact flight control continuity anomalies were detected... UNQUOTE
Dan - thanks for the clarification! Glad it wasn't caused by a disconnected elevator.
Uli
'AS'
Tom BravoMike
March 25th 18, 08:53 PM
On Sunday, March 25, 2018 at 11:36:12 AM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Why are you telling me this, Herb?* Do you feel better about yourself by
> measuring a certain part of your anatomy in mm than in inches?
>
(...)> --
> Dan, 5J
That's hilarious, Dan. Talk to your doctor(s). It seems to me that here in the US, without making much fuzz about it, our health care providers have actually switched secretly to metric. I can hear millimeters milliliters, kilograms around me all the time. Dentists, family doctors, hospitals...
Sci Fi
March 25th 18, 09:26 PM
>a=
>ctually switched secretly to metric. I can hear millimeters milliliters,
>ki=
>lograms around me all the time. Dentists, family doctors, hospitals...
>
In my early engineering schooling we had to use 'Slugs' and 'Poundals'.
Cannot even remember what they were now, except maybe they could have some
connection with the metric 'Newtons'.
On Sunday, March 25, 2018 at 11:36:12 AM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Why are you telling me this, Herb?* Do you feel better about yourself by
> measuring a certain part of your anatomy in mm than in inches?
>
> BTW Johathan's near mishap would not have happened had Shemp-Hirth and
> "the rest of the world" had used the English system.
>
> On 3/25/2018 8:10 AM, wrote:
> > On Saturday, March 24, 2018 at 4:05:06 PM UTC-5, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> >> I took delivery of a brand new Ventus 2c, had the W&B done for my weight plus chute. Took the glider for it's first flight and thank goodness it was a great soaring day as it took me about two hours to be able to control it between 45-75 knots. Turns out they figured out the correct weight, say 5 pounds, wrote it in log book, but when they actually the weight in they used Kilograms, so I had 5 kg instead of 5 lb in tail. We figured it out, but I forgot the number, I was WELL aft of the aft most CG. I agree, check W&B.
> >>
> >>
> >> On Saturday, March 24, 2018 at 9:28:27 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> >>> On Saturday, March 24, 2018 at 10:15:36 AM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
> >>>> When I bought my SZD glider, I found that the previous owner had removed ~10 lbs of factory installed lead ballast from the nose. The ballast mount location was hidden behind an access panel.
> >>> - when I bought my Russia it came with 9 pounds of lead shot / epoxy mix permanently mounted in the nose, hidden behind the front bulkhead panel.. Thankfully the seller told me about it. (And for me flying it, I had to add even more ballast in another forward location.) Be careful with the W&B!
> > Earth to Dan Marotta: here's another great reason to go metric, don't ya think? Glad you survived the Kilo-Bomb, Jonathan.
>
> --
> Dan, 5J
Dan, I'm just puzzled that someone of your intelligence doesn't see the obvious supremacy of the metric system. Don't look backwards, join the French who came up with it and all the enlightened rest of the world (among them every single scientist). Your side has lost the battle long ago.
Dan Marotta
March 25th 18, 10:22 PM
Yaas, and I used metric in a lot of my engineering education and work,
but I learned to fly using the English system and, having tried metric
instruments, I prefer the English.* I don't much care what others use.
On 3/25/2018 1:53 PM, Tom BravoMike wrote:
> On Sunday, March 25, 2018 at 11:36:12 AM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> Why are you telling me this, Herb?* Do you feel better about yourself by
>> measuring a certain part of your anatomy in mm than in inches?
>>
> (...)> --
>> Dan, 5J
> That's hilarious, Dan. Talk to your doctor(s). It seems to me that here in the US, without making much fuzz about it, our health care providers have actually switched secretly to metric. I can hear millimeters milliliters, kilograms around me all the time. Dentists, family doctors, hospitals...
--
Dan, 5J
Dan Marotta
March 25th 18, 10:34 PM
Hahahahahaha..............
A major part of intelligence is the ability to make one's own choices
rather than blindly following the pack.* Are these the same scientists
who first were hysterical about "global warming" then, when that didn't
pan out, got on the "climate change" bandwagon? Aren't they the ones
whose emails were revealed to be circling the wagons to keep the
narrative going to protect their financial grants?
Give me a rational argument and I'll listen, but so far, all I've heard
is the bandwagon appeal.
Better still, start a thread about why the metric or English system is
better or worse.* We need more jokes.
How about this?* Why is the metric system better than the English
system?* Because people have 10 fingers rather than 16.
On 3/25/2018 2:58 PM, wrote:
> Dan, I'm just puzzled that someone of your intelligence doesn't see the obvious supremacy of the metric system. Don't look backwards, join the French who came up with it and all the enlightened rest of the world (among them every single scientist). Your side has lost the battle long ago.
--
Dan, 5J
Darryl Ramm
March 25th 18, 10:35 PM
I have a metric altimeter, unused, came with a used glider I purchased, free to anybody who wants to be clubbed about the head with it.
RW[_2_]
March 26th 18, 12:26 AM
On Sunday, March 25, 2018 at 1:03:43 PM UTC-4, Dan Daly wrote:
> On Sunday, March 25, 2018 at 11:14:57 AM UTC-4, AS wrote:
> > If memory serves me right, there was a fatal accident with a SZD55 maybe a year or two ago which sounded very similar to what the British accident report summary states:
> > 'During a towed launch, the glider was seen to climb rapidly. After disconnecting from the tow rope with a very high pitch angle, the glider rolled to the right and descended before hitting the ground in a nose-down attitude. The pilot was fatally injured.'
> > I cannot find the NTSB accident report for the accident in the US but it may be worth looking into it.
> >
> > Uli
> > 'AS'
>
> Uli:
>
> NTSB Identification: CEN16FA308
> 14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
> Accident occurred Saturday, August 06, 2016 in Channahon, IL
> Aircraft: PZL-BIELSKO SZD 55-1, registration: N551DR
> Injuries: 1 Fatal.
>
> This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed. NTSB investigators either traveled in support of this investigation or conducted a significant amount of investigative work without any travel, and used data obtained from various sources to prepare this aircraft accident report.
> [A BUNCH DELETED FOR BREVITY] QUOTE ...The empennage remained intact and exhibited no damage. The wing and horizontal stabilizer attach points were attached properly and were secure. The flight controls, including the spoilers, were checked for continuity from the flight controls to their respective surfaces. Flight control cables and control tubes were traced and all breaks were consistent with overload. No preimpact flight control continuity anomalies were detected... UNQUOTE
On initial roll, glider went over bump, glider jumped, changed position of the unsecured back seat adjustment, and pilot was holding to the stick, going 10 inches back.
Same like young girl by PennState 3rd deadly flight in Std Cirrus few years back.
RW[_2_]
March 26th 18, 12:38 AM
On Saturday, March 24, 2018 at 11:10:49 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> The horizontal stabilizer attachment on the 55 is one of the easiest designs I have seen and I never had a problem installing it. It went on perfectly and easily every time.
> I have a totally unsubstantiated theory about what may have happened. I am wondering if material was removed at the 3000 hour inspection for the insertion of a borescope and never replaced?
> Tragic none the less.
>
> Bob 7U
>
>
> On Saturday, March 24, 2018 at 10:15:36 AM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
> > On Saturday, March 24, 2018 at 9:07:25 AM UTC-4, Dan Daly wrote:
> >
> > > The UK Air Accidents Investigation Branch published a thorough 22 page report. https://www.gov.uk/aaib-reports/aaib-investigation-to-szd-55-1-g-cklr
> >
> > From that report:
> >
> > "In a photograph taken in July 2006 while this repair was being carried out, the enlarged elevator lever slot in the horizontal rib of the tail fin is clearly visible, indicating that it had been modified prior to this point."
> >
> > 'Accident waiting to happen' for 12 years.
> >
> > When I bought my SZD glider, I found that the previous owner had removed ~10 lbs of factory installed lead ballast from the nose. The ballast mount location was hidden behind an access panel.
Somebody modified this glider, I think. Never before I saw opening on upper surface level.Maybe somebody had a problem with rigging ?
If elevator is trimmed all the way back it would be hard or impossible to install horizontal.
Maybe somebody's solution for this,was to cut opening.
Ryszard
jfitch
March 26th 18, 06:35 AM
On Sunday, March 25, 2018 at 1:58:44 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Sunday, March 25, 2018 at 11:36:12 AM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > Why are you telling me this, Herb?* Do you feel better about yourself by
> > measuring a certain part of your anatomy in mm than in inches?
> >
> > BTW Johathan's near mishap would not have happened had Shemp-Hirth and
> > "the rest of the world" had used the English system.
> >
> > On 3/25/2018 8:10 AM, wrote:
> > > On Saturday, March 24, 2018 at 4:05:06 PM UTC-5, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> > >> I took delivery of a brand new Ventus 2c, had the W&B done for my weight plus chute. Took the glider for it's first flight and thank goodness it was a great soaring day as it took me about two hours to be able to control it between 45-75 knots. Turns out they figured out the correct weight, say 5 pounds, wrote it in log book, but when they actually the weight in they used Kilograms, so I had 5 kg instead of 5 lb in tail. We figured it out, but I forgot the number, I was WELL aft of the aft most CG. I agree, check W&B.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Saturday, March 24, 2018 at 9:28:27 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> > >>> On Saturday, March 24, 2018 at 10:15:36 AM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
> > >>>> When I bought my SZD glider, I found that the previous owner had removed ~10 lbs of factory installed lead ballast from the nose. The ballast mount location was hidden behind an access panel.
> > >>> - when I bought my Russia it came with 9 pounds of lead shot / epoxy mix permanently mounted in the nose, hidden behind the front bulkhead panel. Thankfully the seller told me about it. (And for me flying it, I had to add even more ballast in another forward location.) Be careful with the W&B!
> > > Earth to Dan Marotta: here's another great reason to go metric, don't ya think? Glad you survived the Kilo-Bomb, Jonathan.
> >
> > --
> > Dan, 5J
>
> Dan, I'm just puzzled that someone of your intelligence doesn't see the obvious supremacy of the metric system. Don't look backwards, join the French who came up with it and all the enlightened rest of the world (among them every single scientist). Your side has lost the battle long ago.
I've always puzzled why people think the metric system superior. All they did was throw out a bunch of units that were convenient, keeping just one that is arbitrary. If you are math challenged, use inches, microinches, kiloinches, nanoinches, megainches, etc. That's all the French did. So a nautical mile (actually a useful measure, being one degree of latitude) is 72.91 kiloinches or 1.852 kilometers. Can't see the wisdom of one over the other. One nM works better for me.
People point weight, isn't it wonderful that a kilogram is a liter of water.. But of course it isn't. A liter of water weighs 9.8 Newtons.
>
> People point weight, isn't it wonderful that a kilogram is a liter of water. But of course it isn't. A liter of water weighs 9.8 Newtons.
Your litre of water has a mass of 1 Kg.
It weighs 9.8 newtons on Earth, something different on Mars, but still has a mass of 1 kg.
AS
March 26th 18, 01:48 PM
To be correct (and some may call it being anal): the one liter of water cause a force of 9.81N. It does not ‘weigh’ 9.81N!
Uli
‘AS’
Tom BravoMike
March 26th 18, 04:07 PM
(... snip)
> So a nautical mile (actually a useful measure, being one degree of latitude) is 72.91 kiloinches or 1.852 kilometers. Can't see the wisdom of one over the other. One nM works better for me. (...)
Of course you mean one minute, not degree. Wikipedia: "A nautical mile (symbol M, NM or nmi) is a unit of distance, set by international agreement as being exactly 1,852 meters (about 6,076 feet). Historically, it was defined as the distance spanned by one minute of arc along a meridian of the Earth (north-south), and developed from the sea mile and the related geographical mile."
I wonder how it can be useful in gliding. We don't fly along the meridians, i.e. North-South all the time, do we?
Dan Marotta
March 26th 18, 04:40 PM
Yes!* I have one similar.* I think it was a Winter metric altimeter with
a new face attached.* It only two hands, IIRC, and indicated 3,000' per
revolution and it came out of my second hand LS-6a just as soon as I
could get a proper three hand altimeter.* It's useful only for doing
pitot/static checks.
If my suspicions are correct, it actually measures 3,280 ft/rev (1,000
meters/rev) which would quickly make it out of spec.* Here's a picture:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/qnekoxc26dfpmau/Altimeter.jpg?dl=0
On 3/25/2018 3:35 PM, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> I have a metric altimeter, unused, came with a used glider I purchased, free to anybody who wants to be clubbed about the head with it.
--
Dan, 5J
Andrzej Kobus
March 26th 18, 05:16 PM
On Monday, March 26, 2018 at 1:35:25 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> On Sunday, March 25, 2018 at 1:58:44 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > On Sunday, March 25, 2018 at 11:36:12 AM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > > Why are you telling me this, Herb?* Do you feel better about yourself by
> > > measuring a certain part of your anatomy in mm than in inches?
> > >
> > > BTW Johathan's near mishap would not have happened had Shemp-Hirth and
> > > "the rest of the world" had used the English system.
> > >
> > > On 3/25/2018 8:10 AM, wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, March 24, 2018 at 4:05:06 PM UTC-5, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> > > >> I took delivery of a brand new Ventus 2c, had the W&B done for my weight plus chute. Took the glider for it's first flight and thank goodness it was a great soaring day as it took me about two hours to be able to control it between 45-75 knots. Turns out they figured out the correct weight, say 5 pounds, wrote it in log book, but when they actually the weight in they used Kilograms, so I had 5 kg instead of 5 lb in tail. We figured it out, but I forgot the number, I was WELL aft of the aft most CG. I agree, check W&B.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> On Saturday, March 24, 2018 at 9:28:27 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> > > >>> On Saturday, March 24, 2018 at 10:15:36 AM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
> > > >>>> When I bought my SZD glider, I found that the previous owner had removed ~10 lbs of factory installed lead ballast from the nose. The ballast mount location was hidden behind an access panel.
> > > >>> - when I bought my Russia it came with 9 pounds of lead shot / epoxy mix permanently mounted in the nose, hidden behind the front bulkhead panel. Thankfully the seller told me about it. (And for me flying it, I had to add even more ballast in another forward location.) Be careful with the W&B!
> > > > Earth to Dan Marotta: here's another great reason to go metric, don't ya think? Glad you survived the Kilo-Bomb, Jonathan.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Dan, 5J
> >
> > Dan, I'm just puzzled that someone of your intelligence doesn't see the obvious supremacy of the metric system. Don't look backwards, join the French who came up with it and all the enlightened rest of the world (among them every single scientist). Your side has lost the battle long ago.
>
> I've always puzzled why people think the metric system superior. All they did was throw out a bunch of units that were convenient, keeping just one that is arbitrary. If you are math challenged, use inches, microinches, kiloinches, nanoinches, megainches, etc. That's all the French did. So a nautical mile (actually a useful measure, being one degree of latitude) is 72.91 kiloinches or 1.852 kilometers. Can't see the wisdom of one over the other.. One nM works better for me.
>
> People point weight, isn't it wonderful that a kilogram is a liter of water. But of course it isn't. A liter of water weighs 9.8 Newtons.
Sleeping in physics class?
Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)
March 26th 18, 05:19 PM
Sigh......in general in this thread.
I believe most of us round numbers with different info (metric vs. American vs. statute vs. nautical, whatever......).
If the decimals make a difference, you are likely ****ed.
Period.
When I started doing XC, I always rounded to the poor side. Later on, "if I could see it, I could get there.....usually".
BTW, why the frig are we arguing on "units of measurements" in an AD thread?!?!
"Once you hit bottom, who cares how long your member is"!?!?
Sigh.
Dan Marotta
March 26th 18, 05:24 PM
It's not very useful, actually, other than for calculating glide angle,
e.g., given 1 kt sink rate at 60 KCAS (or is it KTAS) yields a glide
angle of 60:1 or 1:60.* But really, that's just a number, and it's
instantaneous, and pretty meaningless in flight.* Still, it's what many
in the world learned to fly with and there's no need to convert numbers
when the final result will be the same.* For me that's a lot easier to
visualize than 1.852 km/hr at 111.12 km/hr which, if divided = 60.* Same
result but a lot more work.
Glide ratio example:* I'm 20 NM from home (or 37 Km), my flight computer
says I need 23:1 to make it, but my current glide ratio is 15:1.* Will I
make it?* Who can say - there's a lot of air between me and home.
On 3/26/2018 9:07 AM, Tom BravoMike wrote:
> I wonder how it can be useful in gliding. We don't fly along the meridians, i.e. North-South all the time, do we?
--
Dan, 5J
jfitch
March 26th 18, 06:53 PM
On Monday, March 26, 2018 at 5:48:50 AM UTC-7, AS wrote:
> To be correct (and some may call it being anal): the one liter of water cause a force of 9.81N. It does not ‘weigh’ 9.81N!
> Uli
> ‘AS’
Generally, weight is defined as the force resulting on a mass in a gravitational field. Kilograms are a measure of mass, not force (unless you specify the ******* unit "kilograms force", like "pounds mass"). The measure of force in the SI system is Newtons. On the surface of the earth, one kilogram mass causes a force of 9.8 Newtons, properly called it's "weight". So to be correct AND anal, one liter of water has a mass of one kilogram, and weighs 9.81 Newtons (on earth). In space a liter of water still has a mass of one kilogram, but a weight of (nearly) zero Newtons.
Yes, I was typing ahead of my brain, a nautical mile is one minute of latitude. It is marginally useful on aeronautical charts, where dividers can be used to scale miles off of the latitude marks. In celestial navigation on boats (and they used to do that in planes!) it is quite a useful unit, as distances are first calculated in spherical arcs.
Ben Coleman
March 27th 18, 01:38 AM
On Monday, 26 March 2018 08:34:15 UTC+11, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Hahahahahaha..............
>
> A major part of intelligence is the ability to make one's own choices
> rather than blindly following the pack.* Are these the same scientists
> who first were hysterical about "global warming" then, when that didn't
> pan out, got on the "climate change" bandwagon? Aren't they the ones
> whose emails were revealed to be circling the wagons to keep the
> narrative going to protect their financial grants?
>
> Give me a rational argument and I'll listen, but so far, all I've heard
> is the bandwagon appeal.
>
You're not getting your news from Facebook, are you?
Cheers Ben
Dan Marotta
March 27th 18, 04:42 PM
I don't do facebook, twit, etc.* I get my news from research, something
more people should try.
Cheers!
On 3/26/2018 6:38 PM, Ben Coleman wrote:
> On Monday, 26 March 2018 08:34:15 UTC+11, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> Hahahahahaha..............
>>
>> A major part of intelligence is the ability to make one's own choices
>> rather than blindly following the pack.* Are these the same scientists
>> who first were hysterical about "global warming" then, when that didn't
>> pan out, got on the "climate change" bandwagon? Aren't they the ones
>> whose emails were revealed to be circling the wagons to keep the
>> narrative going to protect their financial grants?
>>
>> Give me a rational argument and I'll listen, but so far, all I've heard
>> is the bandwagon appeal.
>>
>
> You're not getting your news from Facebook, are you?
>
> Cheers Ben
--
Dan, 5J
The only twit Im seeing is you, dribbling climate denial bull****. You couldnt research your way put of a paper bag.
Dan Daly[_2_]
March 29th 18, 01:16 PM
@son_of_flubber:
You said: "When I bought my SZD glider, I found that the previous owner had removed ~10 lbs of factory installed lead ballast from the nose. The ballast mount location was hidden behind an access panel."
Was this a 55? Which access panel?
Dan Marotta
March 29th 18, 03:09 PM
Ah, what research!* You are exactly the type of person I was talking
about, secure in the knowledge that you know everything and everyone who
doesn't agree with you must be wrong.* Go back to your Facebook friends.
On 3/29/2018 6:07 AM, wrote:
> The only twit Im seeing is you, dribbling climate denial bull****. You couldnt research your way put of a paper bag.
--
Dan, 5J
son_of_flubber
March 30th 18, 12:28 AM
On Thursday, March 29, 2018 at 8:16:28 AM UTC-4, Dan Daly wrote:
> @son_of_flubber:
>
> You said: "When I bought my SZD glider, I found that the previous owner had removed ~10 lbs of factory installed lead ballast from the nose. The ballast mount location was hidden behind an access panel."
>
> Was this a 55? Which access panel?
I don't have an SZD 55
"When I bought my SZD glider, I found that the previous owner had removed ~10 lbs of factory installed lead ballast from the nose. The ballast mount location was hidden behind an access panel."
Was the change at least properly done and recorded? Anyone who makes a significant change in the C of G by doing something like that without recording the work and accurately updating the weight & balance and loading information deserves to be horsewhipped.
We've got one 55 in my club, fortunately it hasn't been hacked up like the accident glider was. I was relieved that the owners aren't faced with the need to get glass work done right at the beginning of the season.
The experts have done the research, and all agree AGW is happening, ive done my researcg properly,
not on dribbling nut job denialist sites. Youre a bit of a dickhead arent you?
On Monday, April 2, 2018 at 3:26:35 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> The experts have done the research, and all agree AGW is happening, ive done my researcg properly,
> not on dribbling nut job denialist sites. Youre a bit of a dickhead arent you?
The experts have been caught cheating in their attempts to push AGW. Pushing rules on people for power and money justified by fraudulent science is the ultimate dickhead move. Find a new religion. I suggest soaring, church usually meets on Sat. and Sun. though the truly devoted also attend services during the week.
son_of_flubber
April 2nd 18, 01:30 PM
Flub said:
> "When I bought my SZD glider, I found that the previous owner had removed ~10 lbs of factory installed lead ballast from the nose. The ballast mount location was hidden behind an access panel."
>
On Monday, April 2, 2018 at 1:52:51 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> Was the change at least properly done and recorded? Anyone who makes a significant change in the C of G by doing something like that without recording the work and accurately updating the weight & balance and loading information deserves to be horsewhipped.
No log book entry. Owner made an offhand verbal remark about the weights when reminiscing over dinner. I had to press him to produce the weights.
The experts were not caught cheating, thats just the typical alt facts of the deluded denialist.
1. CO2 is a gas which blocks some infra red heat from exiting the atmosphere.
2. The greater the concentration in the atmosphere, the greater the insulating
effect.
3. The extra heat must go somewhere, it doesnt just disappear. Neither does CO2.
4.The extra CO2 changes the ph of the oceans, by creating carbolic acid when it is absorbed-and its absorption is limited, at a certain point it will stop sinking CO2, if plankton blooms are reduced, and deforrestation continues, it's hard to see levels reducing, or even not increasing.
5. There is no contradiction in claiming that extreme events in both temp directions are a result of putting more energy into a chaotic system. Its not a leap to look at the amount extra energy, and research its effects on individual events, given the advances in computing power we have seen over the last 50 years.
6. Nobody is claiming every severe event is caused by climate change, only that the intensity of the event is probably larger. That is simply a strawman.
I will never understand smart people being obtuse about such a simple matter.
Martin Gregorie[_6_]
April 5th 18, 12:37 PM
On Wed, 04 Apr 2018 21:09:34 -0700, davidlawley wrote:
Good points snipped.
> I will never understand smart people being obtuse about such a simple
> matter.
>
There's nothing harder than to change a mind that has fixed views about
something that is backed by the perception that "its always been like
this so its ALWAYS gonna be like this".
Sorry, but when the CO2 content of the atmosphere has risen from 340 ppm
in 1980 to 400ppm in 2017 (15% in 37 years) AND the heat from burning all
that carbon-based fuel has been pumped into the environment, then
something is going to happen.
I've certainly noticed changes in UK weather patterns over the 18 years
I've been flying gliders and am just surprised that others haven't also
noticed them. Changes like the disappearance of ideal XC conditions in
May when a strong northerly brings cold air down under a high pressure
ridge. Like the observation that the jet stream used to be over the UK in
winter and well north of us in summer. Now its over us in summer and over
France in winter.
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org
Cult members double down on their belief when shown the truth. Just the way we are wired. Round here it looks like glider assembly day is going to get postponed by snow. Damn global warming. Or the maybe the scientists in the 1970's were right and we are experiencing pollution caused winter. Only way to settle this is to ask a dinosaur what the normal earth temperature should be...
Or 'give' more money to the climatologists. Wait that won't work the more money you shovel at climatologists the more global warming you get.
Dan Marotta
April 5th 18, 03:50 PM
A well stated case!* So tell me, which man-made event caused the ice to
melt some 11,000 years ago?
If you can't dazzle us with brilliance, must you try to baffle us with
bull ****?* And no, I'm not a flat earther, just someone who thinks for
himself.* You should try the same rather than insult us with your claims
of perfect knowledge.
And what's this got to do with the SZD-55, anyway?
On 4/4/2018 10:09 PM, wrote:
> The experts were not caught cheating, thats just the typical alt facts of the deluded denialist.
> 1. CO2 is a gas which blocks some infra red heat from exiting the atmosphere.
>
> 2. The greater the concentration in the atmosphere, the greater the insulating
> effect.
>
> 3. The extra heat must go somewhere, it doesnt just disappear. Neither does CO2.
>
> 4.The extra CO2 changes the ph of the oceans, by creating carbolic acid when it is absorbed-and its absorption is limited, at a certain point it will stop sinking CO2, if plankton blooms are reduced, and deforrestation continues, it's hard to see levels reducing, or even not increasing.
>
> 5. There is no contradiction in claiming that extreme events in both temp directions are a result of putting more energy into a chaotic system. Its not a leap to look at the amount extra energy, and research its effects on individual events, given the advances in computing power we have seen over the last 50 years.
>
> 6. Nobody is claiming every severe event is caused by climate change, only that the intensity of the event is probably larger. That is simply a strawman.
>
> I will never understand smart people being obtuse about such a simple matter.
> I view those that question AGW in the same class as flat earthers, anti vaxxers and creationists.
--
Dan, 5J
On Thursday, April 5, 2018 at 7:50:22 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> And what's this got to do with the SZD-55, anyway?
I think you started it ;-)
https://xkcd.com/1732/
Dan Marotta
April 6th 18, 01:19 AM
Did not.* I responded to some idiotic demand for the US to convert to
the metric system or similar crusade.* That got the "true believers"
spun up and calling names.* Back at'cha! :-D
On 4/5/2018 10:31 AM, wrote:
> On Thursday, April 5, 2018 at 7:50:22 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> And what's this got to do with the SZD-55, anyway?
> I think you started it ;-)
>
> https://xkcd.com/1732/
--
Dan, 5J
You were the one that brought up denialist cult talking points. Other than the usual debunked denialist lies,
Can you address the points I made? Of course not, you are in denial of reality.
Heres a nice graph for you to contemplate.
https://xkcd.com/1732/
Its so amusing how you seppos hang on to the irrational non metric system, except for in science, where the metric system is use.
But let me guess, you aint interested in no stinking facts.
BobW
April 6th 18, 02:05 AM
And the ad hominem pioneer of this thread? C'mon spring!!!
Bob W.
---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com
Dan Marotta
April 6th 18, 04:13 PM
Hey, that was a terrific history lesson (the graph), entertaining, too!*
But how would you make drastic emissions reductions?* Electric
everything?* Where do those electrons come from?* Oh yeah, you guys, and
you know who your are - I won't stoop to such childish name calling as
you, like to ignore the simple fact that most of the electricity for
your "emission free" cars come from burning coal.
Metric?* Wow, you can divide by 10.* I'm impressed.* You should walk
1.609344 kilometers in my shoes.
I'm also out.* I'll simply smile to myself at your next barrage of name
calling
On 4/5/2018 6:47 PM, wrote:
> Its so amusing how you seppos hang on to the irrational non metric system, except for in science, where the metric system is use.
> But let me guess, you aint interested in no stinking facts.
--
Dan, 5J
Jonathan St. Cloud
April 6th 18, 06:56 PM
Seppos: A deragatory term used by Australians and English for Americans (septic tank = yank). For the life of me I can’t think of a single deragatory term we “Yank’s” have for Aussies or Brits. I guess we are just more civil to our brothers :)
Ah, the luddites are always the same. My solar panels can charge a car nicely. The 1950s called, they want their technology back from you.
No coal power used in my house, I generate more solar than I can use, even running air con 24/7, from a $4000 au system.
Yank-septic tank-full of......
Theres a reason there are no derogatory terms for Aussies and Brits. If think about it long enough, you realise there is no need for them to exist, as opposed to.....
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