Confusing SSA hand signals that should be changed

[kirk.stant]

As a glider pilot and tow pilot, there are a couple of SSA - recommended hand signals/procedures that I find confusing at best and dangerous at worst:

First, the HOLD and STOP signals. Used interchangeably by most wing runners, the HOLD signal (arms level) is essentially invisible from the towplane, and impossible to do if holding a wing level (as with water ballast). Think about it - looking aft from the towplan, you have a bunch of horizontal features (horizon, wings, tail, etc) competing with the wing runners arms. In addition, the internationally (civilian and military) agreed use of that signal is to direct a helicopter to hover! Instead, why not use the unniversally recognized (and previous SSA signal - check an old copy of Joy Of Soaring) signal of an arm held vertically, palm forward? This is easy to see from the towplane, is distinct from the "take up slack" waving of the arm (can be timed to stop the towplane precisely), and can be done one handed. With the addition of a hat in the hand it is even easier to see from the towplane.

The SSF "STOP" signal is even dumber - totally invisible from the towplane and not used anywhere else that I can find. And again is a two handed signal.

I propose that the SSA and SSF change the US standard signal for HOLD and STOP to one arm held straight up (preferable with a hat or paddle), or two arms held up crossed (if both arms are free).

Second, I think there needs to be additional emphasis that the wing runner is NOT TO GIVE THE "BEGIN TAKEOFF" SIGNAL UNTIL THE GLIDER PILOT WAGS HIS RUDDER! I would even suggest that the "BEGIN TAKEOFF" signal SHOULD NOT BE DONE BY WING RUNNERS.

[Chris Rowland[_2_]]

At 17:20 27 March 2018, kirk.stant wrote:
>Second, I think there needs to be additional emphasis that the wing
runner
>=
>is NOT TO GIVE THE "BEGIN TAKEOFF" SIGNAL UNTIL THE GLIDER PILOT WAGS HIS
>R=
>UDDER! I would even suggest that the "BEGIN TAKEOFF" signal SHOULD NOT BE
>D=
>ONE BY WING RUNNERS.

We have been having the launch controlled by the wing runner for some time
and it seems to work well. The wing runner is in a good position to see
when the rope is tight and if there's been an overrun. They can also check
above and behind. The pilot isn't in a good position to see any of this.

The pilot doesn't accept the cable until they are ready to go and if
something changes they release. By accepting the cable they say they are
ready to go.

Chris

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, March 27, 2018 at 10:20:56 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
> As a glider pilot and tow pilot, there are a couple of SSA - recommended hand signals/procedures that I find confusing at best and dangerous at worst:
>
> First, the HOLD and STOP signals. Used interchangeably by most wing runners, the HOLD signal (arms level) is essentially invisible from the towplane, and impossible to do if holding a wing level (as with water ballast). Think about it - looking aft from the towplan, you have a bunch of horizontal features (horizon, wings, tail, etc) competing with the wing runners arms. In addition, the internationally (civilian and military) agreed use of that signal is to direct a helicopter to hover! Instead, why not use the unniversally recognized (and previous SSA signal - check an old copy of Joy Of Soaring) signal of an arm held vertically, palm forward? This is easy to see from the towplane, is distinct from the "take up slack" waving of the arm (can be timed to stop the towplane precisely), and can be done one handed.. With the addition of a hat in the hand it is even easier to see from the towplane.
>
> The SSF "STOP" signal is even dumber - totally invisible from the towplane and not used anywhere else that I can find. And again is a two handed signal.
>
> I propose that the SSA and SSF change the US standard signal for HOLD and STOP to one arm held straight up (preferable with a hat or paddle), or two arms held up crossed (if both arms are free).
>
> Second, I think there needs to be additional emphasis that the wing runner is NOT TO GIVE THE "BEGIN TAKEOFF" SIGNAL UNTIL THE GLIDER PILOT WAGS HIS RUDDER! I would even suggest that the "BEGIN TAKEOFF" signal SHOULD NOT BE DONE BY WING RUNNERS.

How is it easier to see an arm held vertically with hand palm up than it is two arms outstretched horizontally, or the take up slack signal? Seems like you would be looking just for a palm of a hand... Just asking honestly, from a glider pilot who has never looked at the wingrunner from a towplane..

I've never been anywhere where it is ok for the wingrunner to signal takeoff without the rudder being waggled. I'm not sure I see the point, if the pilot can't see the rudder waggle the wingrunner sure should be able to. I wouldn't like it if the wingrunner had that option and if I didn't know they did, might release pretty quick.
I takeoff from a very busy runway and we don't have the luxury of getting everything ready before hooking up the rope. We have a payout tow rope winch so it makes a lot of sense to get hooked up asap.

[[email protected]]

I agree the signals are confusing. I have often seen a wing runner look for the towplane rudder wag while the glider wags his and then look at the glider tail when the towplane wags. Then just wait because he/she never saw the rudder wags.

[Tango Eight]

Kirk makes good points.

Here's what we do at Post Mills. We've made converts out of three other clubs in the region. It works well.

Our signal to take up slack is to level the wings of the glider. The wing runner "confirms" this by giving the take up slack signal as slack taking proceeds. As slack comes out, wing runner raises arm vertically, wing stays level. When ready to begin the launch, the glider gives a rudder wag, confirmed by the wing runner windmilling his arm. The tow pilot acknowledges with a brief rudder wag, then begins the take off.

Efficient, water ballast compatible, easy for everyone involved to see and understand. Why isn't the SSF teaching this?

best regards,
Evan Ludeman / T8

[SoaringXCellence]

This is the same thing we do at WVSC.

[kirk.stant]

On Tuesday, March 27, 2018 at 5:53:15 PM UTC-5, Tango Eight wrote:
> Kirk makes good points.
>
> Here's what we do at Post Mills. We've made converts out of three other clubs in the region. It works well.
>
> Our signal to take up slack is to level the wings of the glider. The wing runner "confirms" this by giving the take up slack signal as slack taking proceeds. As slack comes out, wing runner raises arm vertically, wing stays level. When ready to begin the launch, the glider gives a rudder wag, confirmed by the wing runner windmilling his arm. The tow pilot acknowledges with a brief rudder wag, then begins the take off.
>
> Efficient, water ballast compatible, easy for everyone involved to see and understand. Why isn't the SSF teaching this?
>
> best regards,
> Evan Ludeman / T8

I like your way of doing it. Breaks the launch into distinct, unambiguous sequences with little chance of confusion, and addresses the water ballast equaling issue that inexperienced wing runners can screw up. And makes it obvious that a glider on the grid with level wings is hooked up and could move at any time. Similar to race launches where you go as soon as the rope is tight. Still have to beat into the wing runners not to signal takeoff until they see the rudder waggle. Also, if at any time during the preparation to launch the wing runner sees conflicting traffic, putting the wing down automatically stops the launch.

I'm going to see if I can get our club to try it.

Meanwhile - SSF, are you reading this? I think it's time to re-visit our procedures!

Kirk
66
St Louis Soaring Assn.

[kirk.stant]

On Tuesday, March 27, 2018 at 2:09:43 PM UTC-5, wrote:

> How is it easier to see an arm held vertically with hand palm up than it is two arms outstretched horizontally, or the take up slack signal? Seems like you would be looking just for a palm of a hand... Just asking honestly, from a glider pilot who has never looked at the wingrunner from a towplane.


From a towplane, looking through mirrors, it is a LOT easier to see a raised arm (especially holding a white hat) than level arms. The only vertical things back there are the glider tails, while there are a lot of horizontal lines - and the horizon is usually about level with the wing runners arms. Try it and see for your self.


> I've never been anywhere where it is ok for the wingrunner to signal takeoff without the rudder being waggled. I'm not sure I see the point, if the pilot can't see the rudder waggle the wingrunner sure should be able to. I wouldn't like it if the wingrunner had that option and if I didn't know they did, might release pretty quick.

Agree that while the SSF procedure calls for the wing runner to respond to the rudder waggle, frequently the "thumbs up I'm ready to go" from the glider pilot get's misinterpreted as "I'm ready to take off" - when obviously the pilot's left hand is NOT on the release or flaps, but in the air! As a secondary confirmation that the glider wants to takeoff I'm OK with the arm circle, but honestly as a tow pilot I only look for that if the wings are level for a long time and the glider rudder isn't waggling.

> I takeoff from a very busy runway and we don't have the luxury of getting everything ready before hooking up the rope. We have a payout tow rope winch so it makes a lot of sense to get hooked up asap.

If you are hooking up the tow rope BEFORE the glider is ready to takeoff you are really taking a big risk - for both the glider and towplane! Both our Pawnees have payout winches and we expect the glider pilot to be ready before he hooks up. No runway is that busy! If you need to payout the reel before the glider is ready then hold the towrope behind the glider while it's paying out with enough slack to stop the towplane in time.

Kirk
66

[Dave Springford]

Why the rudder waggle? What's its purpose? The only country in the half dozen countries in which I have flown that does a rudder waggle is the US.

From the towplane, I can barely see an ASW-27's rudder waggle in the vibrating mirrors. It also means that as a towpilot I am focused on my mirrors to ensure I don't miss the waggle instead of the circuit and traffic around me prior to take-off.

In Canada, the standard take-up slack and all-out signals are provided by the wing-runner after receiving a thumbs-up from the pilot.

As someone else mentioned up-thread. If the pilot is not happy about launching at that instant, pull the yellow knob.

[[email protected]]

We in Australia use the wing runner for all signals, the launch commences when the glider pilot gives a thumbs up to the runner,
who then levels the wings and waves his arm below the waist as a take up slack signal, then when the rope is tight, waves his arm above his head.
Never seen any problems with this practice.

[Tango Eight]

Because we're running a club and training operation, not a contest launch.

There are plenty of circumstances in which student plus instructor might need an extra five seconds to sort something out. Absent the rudder wag, your only recourse at "all out" is hit the release. That's not very efficient.

best,
Evan Ludeman / T8

On Tuesday, March 27, 2018 at 9:33:29 PM UTC-4, Dave Springford wrote:
> Why the rudder waggle?

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, March 27, 2018 at 6:53:15 PM UTC-4, Tango Eight wrote:
> Kirk makes good points.
>
> Here's what we do at Post Mills. We've made converts out of three other clubs in the region. It works well.
>
> Our signal to take up slack is to level the wings of the glider. The wing runner "confirms" this by giving the take up slack signal as slack taking proceeds. As slack comes out, wing runner raises arm vertically, wing stays level. When ready to begin the launch, the glider gives a rudder wag, confirmed by the wing runner windmilling his arm. The tow pilot acknowledges with a brief rudder wag, then begins the take off.
>
> Efficient, water ballast compatible, easy for everyone involved to see and understand. Why isn't the SSF teaching this?
>
> best regards,
> Evan Ludeman / T8

We use the following;
Wing down: Stop. Not ready to go.
Wing rocking: shoulder to knee- Ready to go- take up slack
Wings level. Ready to go- take off- all out.
All are visible in shaking mirror and not easily mistaken
If at any time operation needs to stop. - Wing down.
All pilots trained from the get go to pull the release if rope comes tight with wing down.
We teach rudder wag for purposes of standardization so our pilots know what may be expected at other sites.
FWIW
UH

[[email protected]]

My old club used to work with the Civil Air Patrol, supplying towplane, gliders and sometimes glider pilots to give cadets orientation flights. One disagreement over signals led to some pretty heated discussions.

Our club practice was to keep the wing on the ground until slack was removed glider pilot gave the thumbs up and the runner checked the pattern etc. He would then raise the wing. Rudders were waggled at both ends and if the runner felt it was safe gave the launch signal. The thought process was that it was easy for the tug pilot to see the wing's position. If the wing was down, stand by. CAP insisted that the wing should be raised to indicate the tug could take up slack citing their (and SSA's?) wing runner course. The problem was that the mix of tug and glider pilots varied. Sometimes one or both being ours, sometimes theirs. I've seen it done both ways. It seems to me that a takeoff commencing when the glider pilot isn't ready is less likely the way we did it. If the wing is up, the glider pilot is ready. But, when in Rome...

The FAA handbook says "Pilot ready, wings level — when the glider pilot is ready for takeoff, a thumbs up signal is given and the wing
runner will level the wing to the takeoff position".

[[email protected]]

We often fly with water ballast at Moriarty, and some pilots prefer to bring their gliders to the launch line with wing wheels still in place, due to venting issues. With one wing down, water leaks from the wing at a pretty fast rate on some gliders. This can cause an imbalance, so we don't mind keeping the wing level as much as possible. As a result, we do not teach tow pilots that "wings level" implies anything at all. On the other hand, if the wing runner puts the wing DOWN, that means "HOLD!" Plus, there is a two arms up (crossed or held out) to signal a halt to operations.

[S2]

The only justification for taking up slack with the wingtip on the ground is that it leaves the wingrunner with both hands free to give that much-deprecated stop signal.

As a towpilot, I'm very reluctant to take up slack while the wingtip is on the ground. It looks too much like a glider with nobody in it.

I'm with Evan on this one.

[Chris Rowland[_2_]]

At 19:57 28 March 2018, S2 wrote:
>The only justification for taking up slack with the wingtip on the ground
>is that it leaves the wingrunner with both hands free to give that
>much-deprecated stop signal.
>
>As a towpilot, I'm very reluctant to take up slack while the wingtip is
on
>the ground. It looks too much like a glider with nobody in it.
>
>I'm with Evan on this one.
>

The UK BGA has specified a standard set of signals that make sense, work
and are used universally. They have the huge advantage that you can go to
a different club and get or help with a launch with minimal confusion or
misunderstanding.

There are differences between clubs, for example Sutton Bank use a separate
signaller while at Booker the wing runner does the signalling. The signals
are the same. We were able to adapt within a few seconds.

Doesn't the USA have something similar?

Chris

[TND]

On Thursday, March 29, 2018 at 7:45:06 AM UTC+11, Chris Rowland wrote:
> At 19:57 28 March 2018, S2 wrote:
> >The only justification for taking up slack with the wingtip on the ground
> >is that it leaves the wingrunner with both hands free to give that
> >much-deprecated stop signal.
> >
> >As a towpilot, I'm very reluctant to take up slack while the wingtip is
> on
> >the ground. It looks too much like a glider with nobody in it.
> >
> >I'm with Evan on this one.
> >
>
> The UK BGA has specified a standard set of signals that make sense, work
> and are used universally. They have the huge advantage that you can go to
> a different club and get or help with a launch with minimal confusion or
> misunderstanding.
>
> There are differences between clubs, for example Sutton Bank use a separate
> signaller while at Booker the wing runner does the signalling. The signals
> are the same. We were able to adapt within a few seconds.
>
> Doesn't the USA have something similar?
>
> Chris

Aah, but you're in the UK. The USA is the land of individualism, where a nationally adopted procedure might be seen as some kind of socialist imposition :-)



--

------------------------------
This message is intended for the addressee named and may contain
confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, please
delete it and notify the sender. Views expressed in this message are those
of the individual sender, and are not necessarily the views of their
organisation.

[[email protected]]

Has it happened that slack was taken up or a t/o roll started with no one in the glider AND a wing runner signaling to do so? I'm guessing so.

In any case, when in Rome, do as the Romans! In other words, if you are new to an operation, brief.

“The pilot of the towing aircraft and the glider have agreed upon a
general course of action, including takeoff and release signals,
airspeeds, and emergency procedures for each pilot.�

[Tony[_5_]]

Yes, we do. Since the late 1940's the SSA/Soaring Safety Foundation has had a standard set of signals. http://soaringsafety.org/briefings/signals.html

The FAA Glider Flying Handbook includes these standard signals. They are part of training of every glider pilot. This being the USA, however, most people are pretty sure they have a better idea.

[kirk.stant]

On Thursday, March 29, 2018 at 1:51:08 PM UTC-5, Tony wrote:
> Yes, we do. Since the late 1940's the SSA/Soaring Safety Foundation has had a standard set of signals. http://soaringsafety.org/briefings/signals.html
>
> The FAA Glider Flying Handbook includes these standard signals. They are part of training of every glider pilot. This being the USA, however, most people are pretty sure they have a better idea.

Ah, but Tony, they occasionally change - ref the signal to STOP - and are obviously not carved in stone. When they were first established, was there any consideration of the need to keep a modern tanked glider level if carrying water? Or the need to level the wings long enough to balance a partial load? Or of the development of tow rope winches for towplanes? All these result in local (or situational - races) changes to the "standard" rules.

Back to the wingrunner "start the launch" signal - I can see the utility of it as a repeat of the PICs final signal (rudder waggle). Emphasis on REPEAT, "foot stomp", because I do not want the decision to launch made by the wing runner. And perhaps it is a local problem, but I often look in the mirror and watch the wing get raised (glider pilot gave the wing runner the thumbs up "ready" signal) then immediately the wing runner gives the takeoff sign - followed by the pilot giving the rudder waggle!

Maybe now that it's the 21th century we should require actual communication between the tow and glider pilot!

It's nice that the Brits have a standardized system. Does all of Europe? Just watched a video of the Diana 3 launching, and all I saw was a rudder waggle. All the wing runner did was hold the wing level. What is the process in France? Germany? Poland?

Anyway, discussion is good and fun. Come on Cu's!

66

[Tony[_5_]]

The signals were developed in the late 1940's, before water ballasted gliders (besides the SGS 1-21) and back when gliders mostly sat on their noses with the tail up in the air for all to see.

The SSF strongly recommends that when the glider and towplane are radio equipped (as almost all are these days) that radio calls be made along with standard soaring signals.

I generally don't let the ground crew hook up the rope until I'm ready to launch and I definitely don't give them a thumbs up unless I'm ready to launch.

[Chris Rowland[_2_]]

The BGA signals were developed long ago, before modern gliders and water
ballast. They don't depend on the glider attitude or control movements.
They were initially designed for winch launching.

The way I see it the wing runner/signaller is in a better position to see
things that could go wrong, such as cable overruns or people landing, than
the pilot.

Chris

At 17:40 30 March 2018, Tony wrote:
>The signals were developed in the late 1940's, before water ballasted
>gliders (besides the SGS 1-21) and back when gliders mostly sat on their
>noses with the tail up in the air for all to see.
>
>The SSF strongly recommends that when the glider and towplane are radio
>equipped (as almost all are these days) that radio calls be made along
with
>standard soaring signals.
>
>I generally don't let the ground crew hook up the rope until I'm ready to
>launch and I definitely don't give them a thumbs up unless I'm ready to
>launch.
>

[Darryl Ramm]

On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 10:40:32 AM UTC-7, Tony wrote:
> The signals were developed in the late 1940's, before water ballasted gliders (besides the SGS 1-21) and back when gliders mostly sat on their noses with the tail up in the air for all to see.
>
> The SSF strongly recommends that when the glider and towplane are radio equipped (as almost all are these days) that radio calls be made along with standard soaring signals.
>
> I generally don't let the ground crew hook up the rope until I'm ready to launch and I definitely don't give them a thumbs up unless I'm ready to launch.

I'd like to propose some r.a.s. hand signals.

[[email protected]]

I'd like to propose some r.a.s. hand signals.

I want dibs on the middle finger symbol.

[Tango Whisky]

The procedure in most European countries I've flown is very simple:
No radio communication, no take-off.
It's the 21st century.

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

I fly from a place where tow planes don't have radios. When I fly from another operation that have radio equipped tow planes (everywhere else I fly from) I consciously have to tell myself I have comms with tow plane.

On Saturday, March 31, 2018 at 12:06:03 AM UTC-7, Tango Whisky wrote:
> The procedure in most European countries I've flown is very simple:
> No radio communication, no take-off.
> It's the 21st century.

[[email protected]]

There are still places, as Jonathan has noted that still dont use radios in the tow plane let alone the gliders, I personally find that objectionable, but not to the point of refusing to fly there. We at Prescott Area soaring use a winch over a mile away and no radio comms mean no tow until we do. And its not so much the before launch signals for me as the speed changes on tow that worry me more both winch and aero tow. Being a fairly new (50 aero tows) tow pilot, I find it particularly difficult, in the rough thermally air in AZ, to interpret signals from the glider without a radio call.

CH

[Tango Eight]

On Saturday, March 31, 2018 at 3:06:03 AM UTC-4, Tango Whisky wrote:
> The procedure in most European countries I've flown is very simple:
> No radio communication, no take-off.
> It's the 21st century.

We have radios in all of our aircraft. We simply prefer not to clutter the air waves, there is plenty of that already. Hand signals work fine for routine hook up and launch procedures. Towplanes make departure calls of course. Radio calls between tow plane and glider are not discouraged. The 21st century exists in America too.

best,
Evan Ludeman / T8

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Sat, 31 Mar 2018 18:34:32 -0700, Tango Eight wrote:

> We have radios in all of our aircraft. We simply prefer not to clutter
> the air waves, there is plenty of that already.
>
Thats never a problem at my club because, like all the bigger UK clubs,
we have our own frequency. Is this not usual in the USA?

Not criticising: just curious.



--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[Tango Whisky]

Le dimanche 1 avril 2018 11:07:50 UTC+2, Martin Gregorie a écritÂ*:
> On Sat, 31 Mar 2018 18:34:32 -0700, Tango Eight wrote:
>
> > We have radios in all of our aircraft. We simply prefer not to clutter
> > the air waves, there is plenty of that already.
> >
> Thats never a problem at my club because, like all the bigger UK clubs,
> we have our own frequency. Is this not usual in the USA?
>
> Not criticising: just curious.
>
>
>
> --
> Martin | martin at
> Gregorie | gregorie dot org

If flying from a field with ATC, communication between glider and tug is typically done on a separate frequency. Once the slack has been taking up and everybody is ready to go, both switch to ATC (but the glider only listens)..

[Dan Marotta]

The main difference is that a lot of the soaring operations, clubs and
commercial operations in the US are based at public use airports and
there is general aviation traffic, commuter flights, sky diving clubs,
etc., using the same airport and frequency.Â* After getting out on
course, most gliders switch to a common frequency used mostly by
gliders, though I often hear military training flights there, as well.

To further muck up the waters, most uncontrolled airports in the USA use
one of a few frequencies as Unicom or Common Traffic Advisory Frequency
and, around Moriarty, there are at least three airports within line of
sight to gliders at altitude that use the same frequency.Â* And, if that
is not enough, one of those airports uses the same frequency for its
Automatic Terminal Information Service which, after a couple of mic
clicks or transmissions close together, will start broadcasting airport
weather information.

We don't have sky diving at Moriarty, but we do have a lot of general
aviation flights arriving, departing, practicing landings, fire bombers,
military helicopters, etc., and all are blended in with glider
operations, both the ABQ Soaring Club and Sundance Aviation, the
commercial operator.Â* On weekends, we'll have two or three tugs operating.

These are some of the reasons that hand signals are so useful at our
operations.

On 4/1/2018 3:07 AM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Sat, 31 Mar 2018 18:34:32 -0700, Tango Eight wrote:
>
>> We have radios in all of our aircraft. We simply prefer not to clutter
>> the air waves, there is plenty of that already.
>>
> Thats never a problem at my club because, like all the bigger UK clubs,
> we have our own frequency. Is this not usual in the USA?
>
> Not criticising: just curious.
>
>
>

--
Dan, 5J

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

Sheesh Dan, is that all in the US?!?!
Slacker......
;-)

Yes, at our location, we do our hand signals which is pretty close to SSA standards.
Yes, if possible, we do radio. Not all trainers have a mounted radio, but may have a handheld.

We do a LOT of ground launch training before solo wing runner doing it solo.
Perfect!, nope.
Only perfect peeps I know are usuallly buttholes.

We do, we watch, we adapt.
We have a good record.
We are open to fine tune methods.
We are close to "SSA standards".

[Dan Marotta]

Yeah, I know.Â* We need more regulations and procedures...Â* Flying is
still too much fun. :-D

On 4/1/2018 1:56 PM, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> Sheesh Dan, is that all in the US?!?!
> Slacker......
> ;-)
>
> Yes, at our location, we do our hand signals which is pretty close to SSA standards.
> Yes, if possible, we do radio. Not all trainers have a mounted radio, but may have a handheld.
>
> We do a LOT of ground launch training before solo wing runner doing it solo.
> Perfect!, nope.
> Only perfect peeps I know are usuallly buttholes.
>
> We do, we watch, we adapt.
> We have a good record.
> We are open to fine tune methods.
> We are close to "SSA standards".
>

--
Dan, 5J

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, March 27, 2018 at 12:20:56 PM UTC-5, kirk.stant wrote:
> As a glider pilot and tow pilot, there are a couple of SSA - recommended hand signals/procedures that I find confusing at best and dangerous at worst:
>
>

At one of the clubs where I regularly fly, they use the standard SSA signals, however, they leave the wingtip on the ground while the wing runner signals to take up slack. Once the slack is out, they signal a brief stop and then the wing runner turns a complete circle to view the entire airspace around the launch. If that shows no other traffic that would be a problem, the wing runner checks for a thumbs up from the pilot and then lifts the wingtip and gives the takeoff signal.

I believe that doing an intentional stop after taking out slack makes it far easier for the wing runner to make a full survey of the airspace, without juggling a wingtip during the check. It only takes seconds, but I believe it adds to safety.

[CindyB[_2_]]

On Tuesday, March 27, 2018 at 10:20:56 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
> As a glider pilot and tow pilot, there are a couple of SSA - recommended hand signals/procedures that I find confusing at best and dangerous at worst:
>
> First, the HOLD and STOP signals. <snipped by CB>
>
> The SSF "STOP" signal is even dumber - totally invisible from the towplane and not used anywhere else that I can find. And again is a two handed signal.
>
> I propose that the SSA and SSF change the US standard signal for HOLD and STOP to one arm held straight up (preferable with a hat or paddle), or two arms held up crossed (if both arms are free).

Aaaagh. So the suggestion is to have two potential actions for the same suggested signal? Again, a less than desirable 'vocabulary' for communication. Or is Hold/Stop the same thing?

I tell folks that MOVING parts are easier to see from a tug mirror. If you Really Need that towpilot's attention - you will MOVE the signalling appendage. How do you stop/halt auto traffic from striking an item on the roadway?
You hop in front of the oncoming machine, and WAVE your arms over your head.
(Please do remove yourself, if the machine isn't halting.) You Got Big.
Maybe you jump up and down or move laterally while waving. Motion is the item that gets attention across a retina.
Once you have them stopping, you convert to a still being. Probably still hands-high.

Having a wingtip on the ground means - wait, don't launch.
Having a hand overhead means - wait, don't launch.
When that hand is 'changing' from below-waist movement (taxi) it has two possible next instructions - Stop, or Go. One is no motion, one IS motion.
Two arms up-and-crossed aren't much different visually than one arm.
But two-up arms must mean a tip is down.... = waiting (for the tug).
An Arm Up with a ballcap/gliderhat/T-shirt/washtowel or seat cushion in hand - is Big visually.

The key is - learn the LOCAL protocol.
The refinements are important.
I like that UH uses a system that is so-similar and like groundlaunch signals.
Moving = moving. Still = still.

The SSA/SSF signal that bugs me is a different one.
How do you tell a tug to release a line and move off the area
and park, or shutdown?

If you hold your hand palm down and cross your throat with it,
no towpilot I ever met (that's a big number) has released a line.
Every one of those pilots has immediately shut down their engine.

If I want a tug to release a line, I point to his tow hook, then
I grab hands together in front of my chest (as if connected), then release and flare fingers and spread hands wide apart. If needed (from no pre-briefing),
I repeat this and have always been successful getting a line dropped.
Then I point to them, to where they should taxi, and shut down with the throat-cut signal. That has always worked for me.

Be careful out there.
It's "the silly season".

Cindy B

[kirk.stant]

On Monday, April 2, 2018 at 12:51:36 AM UTC-5, CindyB wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 27, 2018 at 10:20:56 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
> > As a glider pilot and tow pilot, there are a couple of SSA - recommended hand signals/procedures that I find confusing at best and dangerous at worst:
> >
> > First, the HOLD and STOP signals. <snipped by CB>
> >
> > The SSF "STOP" signal is even dumber - totally invisible from the towplane and not used anywhere else that I can find. And again is a two handed signal.
> >
> > I propose that the SSA and SSF change the US standard signal for HOLD and STOP to one arm held straight up (preferable with a hat or paddle), or two arms held up crossed (if both arms are free).
>
> Aaaagh. So the suggestion is to have two potential actions for the same suggested signal? Again, a less than desirable 'vocabulary' for communication. Or is Hold/Stop the same thing?
>
> I tell folks that MOVING parts are easier to see from a tug mirror. If you Really Need that towpilot's attention - you will MOVE the signalling appendage. How do you stop/halt auto traffic from striking an item on the roadway?
> You hop in front of the oncoming machine, and WAVE your arms over your head.
> (Please do remove yourself, if the machine isn't halting.) You Got Big.
> Maybe you jump up and down or move laterally while waving. Motion is the item that gets attention across a retina.
> Once you have them stopping, you convert to a still being. Probably still hands-high.
>
> Having a wingtip on the ground means - wait, don't launch.
> Having a hand overhead means - wait, don't launch.
> When that hand is 'changing' from below-waist movement (taxi) it has two possible next instructions - Stop, or Go. One is no motion, one IS motion..
> Two arms up-and-crossed aren't much different visually than one arm.
> But two-up arms must mean a tip is down.... = waiting (for the tug).
> An Arm Up with a ballcap/gliderhat/T-shirt/washtowel or seat cushion in hand - is Big visually.
>
> The key is - learn the LOCAL protocol.
> The refinements are important.
> I like that UH uses a system that is so-similar and like groundlaunch signals.
> Moving = moving. Still = still.
>
> The SSA/SSF signal that bugs me is a different one.
> How do you tell a tug to release a line and move off the area
> and park, or shutdown?
>
> If you hold your hand palm down and cross your throat with it,
> no towpilot I ever met (that's a big number) has released a line.
> Every one of those pilots has immediately shut down their engine.
>
> If I want a tug to release a line, I point to his tow hook, then
> I grab hands together in front of my chest (as if connected), then release and flare fingers and spread hands wide apart. If needed (from no pre-briefing),
> I repeat this and have always been successful getting a line dropped.
> Then I point to them, to where they should taxi, and shut down with the throat-cut signal. That has always worked for me.
>
> Be careful out there.
> It's "the silly season".
>
> Cindy B

Well, with ballasted gliders on the line "wings level" could be a confusing signal, IMO. As a tow pilot, it helps to know what is going to be towed; wings level on the grid: ballast, usually, but nothing about whether the glider is ready to go (pilot may not even be in it!).

Ok, so HOLD is an arm held up, preferably holding a hat for visibility. STOP (if necessary) should be the crossed arm signal - that is pretty much standard in aviation (at least in the military). HOLD and STOP are not the same; if I want the towplane to stop taking out slack for some reason, I would tell him to STOP; once the slack is out but before the glider signals he is ready to go the HOLD command is appropriate. A separate STOP at the end of taking out slack is redundant, IMO, the command when the slack is out could just as well be the takeoff command (as common at a contest).

The throat cut means shutdown to just about every power pilot and should be reserved for that. To release the line, we have used both hands above head (for visibility) with thumb and forefinger touching and linked, then separate the hands with the fingers spread (simulating the towrope link being released from the hook). That has not caused any confusion yet. Pretty similar to what you use.

Then again, hand held radios are really cheap ;^)

Kirk
66

[Scott Williams]

On Sunday, April 1, 2018 at 2:56:46 PM UTC-5, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> Sheesh Dan, is that all in the US?!?!
> Slacker......
> ;-)
>
> Yes, at our location, we do our hand signals which is pretty close to SSA standards.
> Yes, if possible, we do radio. Not all trainers have a mounted radio, but may have a handheld.
>
> We do a LOT of ground launch training before solo wing runner doing it solo.
> Perfect!, nope.
> Only perfect peeps I know are usuallly buttholes.
>
> We do, we watch, we adapt.
> We have a good record.
> We are open to fine tune methods.
> We are close to "SSA standards".

Hey Charlie,
"most perfect peeps are buttholes"?,
I pursue perfection and I'm not a butthole,
Well, maybe a little, no, your right, we're buttholes,
but we want people to like us!! :-)

Scott

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

Pursuing perfection is an admirable goal, usually unobtainable.
Typically, anyone that states they are perfect, is usually a butthole (toning my normal term down a bit).
I do not know you, I don't see where you state you are perfect, thus I don't consider you a butthole.

No offense, in general, was meant........unless you consider yourself perfect, then we shall see.
Oh, have a nice day.

Spring is here, looking at the 5" of fresh snow in north NJ........sigh.......