Libelles & Tost Rings

[nowhere]

I know the subject has been brought up before, but I was wondering if
anyone out there has come up with any new ways of coping with the way
that the current pattern Tost rings bind in Libelle nose hooks. Going
through the archives I found three possibilities mentioned: 1; Make
the aperature in the glider nose larger, 2; Find an old "double
oblong" Tost ring or 3; Just use a piece of chain for the end of the
weak link.

The one that sounds the best, using an older ring, seems to be near
impossible to accomplish as I can't find any of these rings. Does
anyone have any new ideas?

[f.blair]

What kind of problem are you having? We use the double link Tost rings and
have not had any problems with my Libelle, a 301b, with the nose hook. I
don't know where they buy them, but I think they are close to $30 each.
Fred
"nowhere" > wrote in message
om...
> I know the subject has been brought up before, but I was wondering if
> anyone out there has come up with any new ways of coping with the way
> that the current pattern Tost rings bind in Libelle nose hooks. Going
> through the archives I found three possibilities mentioned: 1; Make
> the aperature in the glider nose larger, 2; Find an old "double
> oblong" Tost ring or 3; Just use a piece of chain for the end of the
> weak link.
>
> The one that sounds the best, using an older ring, seems to be near
> impossible to accomplish as I can't find any of these rings. Does
> anyone have any new ideas?

[BTIZ]

the H201 and also the Kestrel have trouble with the two round rings, for
those the smaller ring needs to be of the long or oblong variety.

Our club members with those problems bring their own old ring.. check Tim at
Wings and Wheels to see if he has any left..

BT

"f.blair" > wrote in message
news:_0IKc.128495$XM6.95965@attbi_s53...
> What kind of problem are you having? We use the double link Tost rings
and
> have not had any problems with my Libelle, a 301b, with the nose hook. I
> don't know where they buy them, but I think they are close to $30 each.
> Fred
> "nowhere" > wrote in message
> om...
> > I know the subject has been brought up before, but I was wondering if
> > anyone out there has come up with any new ways of coping with the way
> > that the current pattern Tost rings bind in Libelle nose hooks. Going
> > through the archives I found three possibilities mentioned: 1; Make
> > the aperature in the glider nose larger, 2; Find an old "double
> > oblong" Tost ring or 3; Just use a piece of chain for the end of the
> > weak link.
> >
> > The one that sounds the best, using an older ring, seems to be near
> > impossible to accomplish as I can't find any of these rings. Does
> > anyone have any new ideas?
>
>

[Don Johnstone]

I never had a problem with my Kestrel. I do know that
there is a similar problem with the Ventus 2 and I
understand the cure is to enlarge the recess, and this
may have been done on our Kestrel. Using 'non standard'
bits sounds iffy to me.

The rings we use are oblong large ring, round small
ring.
I do not recall Tost ever using two round rings but
Ottfur did. Tost rings could be used in an Ottfur release
but Ottfur rings should not be used in a Tost release.

At 06:18 19 July 2004, Btiz wrote:
>the H201 and also the Kestrel have trouble with the
>two round rings, for
>those the smaller ring needs to be of the long or oblong
>variety.
>
>Our club members with those problems bring their own
>old ring.. check Tim at
>Wings and Wheels to see if he has any left..
>
>BT
>
>'f.blair' wrote in message
>news:_0IKc.128495$XM6.95965@attbi_s53...
>> What kind of problem are you having? We use the
>>double link Tost rings
>and
>> have not had any problems with my Libelle, a 301b,
>>with the nose hook. I
>> don't know where they buy them, but I think they are
>>close to $30 each.
>> Fred
>> 'nowhere' wrote in message
>> om...
>> > I know the subject has been brought up before, but
>>>I was wondering if
>> > anyone out there has come up with any new ways of
>>>coping with the way
>> > that the current pattern Tost rings bind in Libelle
>>>nose hooks. Going
>> > through the archives I found three possibilities
>>>mentioned: 1; Make
>> > the aperature in the glider nose larger, 2; Find
>>>an old 'double
>> > oblong' Tost ring or 3; Just use a piece of chain
>>>for the end of the
>> > weak link.
>> >
>> > The one that sounds the best, using an older ring,
>>>seems to be near
>> > impossible to accomplish as I can't find any of these
>>>rings. Does
>> > anyone have any new ideas?
>>
>>
>
>
>

[Ray Lovinggood]

My 1970 LS-1d had the same or similar problem with
the CG hook (it doesn't have a nose hook) when I bought
it. New style Tost rings would not fit. I used a
link of chain for the connection.

Several years ago, I had the tow hitch replaced with
a newer Tost and now, the current design of Tost rings
fit.

Is it possible to replace the tow hitch in your Libelle?

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA

At 06:18 19 July 2004, Btiz wrote:
>the H201 and also the Kestrel have trouble with the
>two round rings, for
>those the smaller ring needs to be of the long or oblong
>variety.
>
>Our club members with those problems bring their own
>old ring.. check Tim at
>Wings and Wheels to see if he has any left..
>
>BT
>
>'f.blair' wrote in message
>news:_0IKc.128495$XM6.95965@attbi_s53...
>> What kind of problem are you having? We use the
>>double link Tost rings
>and
>> have not had any problems with my Libelle, a 301b,
>>with the nose hook. I
>> don't know where they buy them, but I think they are
>>close to $30 each.
>> Fred
>> 'nowhere' wrote in message
>> om...
>> > I know the subject has been brought up before, but
>>>I was wondering if
>> > anyone out there has come up with any new ways of
>>>coping with the way
>> > that the current pattern Tost rings bind in Libelle
>>>nose hooks. Going
>> > through the archives I found three possibilities
>>>mentioned: 1; Make
>> > the aperature in the glider nose larger, 2; Find
>>>an old 'double
>> > oblong' Tost ring or 3; Just use a piece of chain
>>>for the end of the
>> > weak link.
>> >
>> > The one that sounds the best, using an older ring,
>>>seems to be near
>> > impossible to accomplish as I can't find any of these
>>>rings. Does
>> > anyone have any new ideas?
>>
>>
>
>
>

[Thomas Knauff]

THe older Libelles have an opening inthe nose that is slightly too small for
the round Tost rings. It is a simple matter to enlarge the hole.

As I recall, there was a service bulletin or tech note regarding this from
Glasflugle.

Using chain links bypasses important safety features of the Tost release
mechanism.

Tom Knauff

"nowhere" > wrote in message
om...
> I know the subject has been brought up before, but I was wondering if
> anyone out there has come up with any new ways of coping with the way
> that the current pattern Tost rings bind in Libelle nose hooks. Going
> through the archives I found three possibilities mentioned: 1; Make
> the aperature in the glider nose larger, 2; Find an old "double
> oblong" Tost ring or 3; Just use a piece of chain for the end of the
> weak link.
>
> The one that sounds the best, using an older ring, seems to be near
> impossible to accomplish as I can't find any of these rings. Does
> anyone have any new ideas?

[Tim Mara]

!!!!!!!!!
IF you have problems with new TOST rings (not really that new, they've been using the current type for decades now!.....binding in old releases then you very obviously have a very old and out of date release mechanism!.the old oval/oval tow rings were replaced many years ago with heavier oval/round rings and using the new rings in old releases is a real no-no......they can and will bind and will cause release failures or can even cause pre-mature release since they won't seat in fully.....all older releases (if you check the TOST manuals, back in the days of the early Libelle's and K6's and even up to ASW20's etc, the REQUIRED Overhaul or exchange time then was every 2 years..since that time overhaul periods went to 3, and then 4 years and now are based solely on accusations and number of launches........Newer TOST releases have larger openings and accept the oval/round rings ONLY .....
if your release was not exchanged after the new O/H times were put into effect, then you still are obligated to make the exchange based on the time period that was in force at the time of the last exchange or overhaul.....
many releases I get for exchange are even today obsolete and cannot be repaired but must be replaced due to the type changes.
details on http://www.wingsandwheels.com/page30.htm
also see:
WARNING!
Recently, connecting ring pairs that do not comply with the LN 65091 standard have begun to appear on the German market. All type-approved tow releases may be used only with a connecting ring pair that complies with the 1985 edition of this standard (Section 2.6 LBA-approved Operating Manual).
The ring pairs (presumably from Egger) are welded - this is explicitly prohibited by LN 65091. They are not correctly dimensioned and will not operate reliably with Tost tow releases. However, these ring pairs are even being used in flying schools, sometimes with a "certificate of approval" from the manufacturer.
These non-approved ring pairs damage the leading edges of the tow releases and can cause the ring to jam in the tow release so that the release cannot be activated.
It is to be expected that Germany will start seeing damage to tow releases and problems with their operation similar to that already happening in the Netherlands.
You should give some thought to the following points:

a.. If a release cannot be activated, the consequences can be fatal.
b.. The damage to the tow release necessitates replacing the housing or the hook. The cost of this repair is far higher than the saving through buying cheaper rings.
c.. If a tow release is operated with non-approved components, the manufacturer's warranty becomes null and void. In addition, in the event of a failure or accident, an insurance company can legitimately repudiate its obligation to pay.
Further information on : http://www.tost.de/evers/edefault.htm

tim
www.wingsandwheels.com


"nowhere" > wrote in message om...
> I know the subject has been brought up before, but I was wondering if
> anyone out there has come up with any new ways of coping with the way
> that the current pattern Tost rings bind in Libelle nose hooks. Going
> through the archives I found three possibilities mentioned: 1; Make
> the aperature in the glider nose larger, 2; Find an old "double
> oblong" Tost ring or 3; Just use a piece of chain for the end of the
> weak link.
>
> The one that sounds the best, using an older ring, seems to be near
> impossible to accomplish as I can't find any of these rings. Does
> anyone have any new ideas?

[nowhere]

Thank you everyone for your help.

I don't actually own a Libelle (got an ASW15, no problem with weak
links but I have to have the insides of the spars looked at with a
borescope every year!)I'm just the person in the club who makes and
maintains our towropes and links so I was asked about this by one of
our members who does have a Libelle. I thought his releases were
overhauled just this winter. Now I'm not sure so I'll check with him.
I didn't think it was the release mechanism itself which is a problem
because the immediately observable problem was the binding on the
fibreglass, not in the actual hook. Now I'm going to check on this
more carefully.

We did have some of the older style when I first took on the job of
making the weak links but we seem to be very adept at losing several
weak links a year. The rare older style being the first to be lost
naturally.

I WON'T use chain myself (I'll never make a weak link with anything
but the proper Tost or Schweizer part for the reasons enumerated in
your messages) and all of our club equipment is made with the correct
parts but I have seen gliders towed by a weak link which was two links
of hardware store chain on the end of a rope. All the links I make for
the club are made with the proper Tost or Schweizer rings (bought them
all from Wings and Wheels and have to buy another batch so I'll be
calling soon Tim) depending upon which glider they're intended for.

I'll try to see what I can do about tracking down the service
bulletin about enlarging the aperature to cure the problem.

Thanks guys, I was at a dead end there and you've given me some more
leads to a possible solution.

[Don Johnstone]

Just as an aside I used to use a set of otfur rings
for ground towing. I now use just a loop of rope. It
is surprising how much wear is put into the release
hook by ground towing if metal rings are used.

DAJ

At 02:30 21 July 2004, Nowhere wrote:
>Thank you everyone for your help.
>
>I don't actually own a Libelle (got an ASW15, no problem
>with weak
>links but I have to have the insides of the spars looked
>at with a
>borescope every year!)I'm just the person in the club
>who makes and
>maintains our towropes and links so I was asked about
>this by one of
>our members who does have a Libelle. I thought his
>releases were
>overhauled just this winter. Now I'm not sure so I'll
>check with him.
>I didn't think it was the release mechanism itself
>which is a problem
>because the immediately observable problem was the
>binding on the
>fibreglass, not in the actual hook. Now I'm going to
>check on this
>more carefully.
>
> We did have some of the older style when I first took
>on the job of
>making the weak links but we seem to be very adept
>at losing several
>weak links a year. The rare older style being the
>first to be lost
>naturally.
>
>I WON'T use chain myself (I'll never make a weak link
>with anything
>but the proper Tost or Schweizer part for the reasons
>enumerated in
>your messages) and all of our club equipment is made
>with the correct
>parts but I have seen gliders towed by a weak link
>which was two links
>of hardware store chain on the end of a rope. All the
>links I make for
>the club are made with the proper Tost or Schweizer
>rings (bought them
>all from Wings and Wheels and have to buy another batch
>so I'll be
>calling soon Tim) depending upon which glider they're
>intended for.
>
> I'll try to see what I can do about tracking down
>the service
>bulletin about enlarging the aperature to cure the
>problem.
>
> Thanks guys, I was at a dead end there and you've
>given me some more
>leads to a possible solution.
>

[Bruce Greeff]

Don Johnstone wrote:
> Just as an aside I used to use a set of otfur rings
> for ground towing. I now use just a loop of rope. It
> is surprising how much wear is put into the release
> hook by ground towing if metal rings are used.
>
> DAJ
<Snip>

We use a loop of rope - no wear to talk of. Rope is easy to replace...