Spinning a Pegase

[Dan S]

My Pegase 101's flight manual states that aerobatic maneuvers including intentional spins are prohibited.

I'm keen to test the behaviour of the glider in a spin and also the spin recovery procedure.

Is the Pegase really unsuitable for intentional spins, will the wings fall off?

[Chris Rowland[_2_]]

At 09:06 08 April 2018, Dan S wrote:
>My Pegase 101's flight manual states that aerobatic maneuvers including
>intentional spins are prohibited.
>
>I'm keen to test the behaviour of the glider in a spin and also the spin
>recovery procedure.
>
>Is the Pegase really unsuitable for intentional spins, will the wings
fall
>off?
>
The most likely reason is because it may be easy to exceed VNE in the
recovery.

The flight manual describes how to recover from a spin and from what it
says there's no fundamental problem other than exceeding VNE.

Take it to the stall with wing drop stage then recover, that's enough to
see what it looks like and how it recovers. If you unintentionally spin
recover immediately.

Chris

[Darryl Ramm]

On Sunday, April 8, 2018 at 2:06:37 AM UTC-7, Dan S wrote:
> My Pegase 101's flight manual states that aerobatic maneuvers including intentional spins are prohibited.
>
> I'm keen to test the behaviour of the glider in a spin and also the spin recovery procedure.
>
> Is the Pegase really unsuitable for intentional spins, will the wings fall off?

"wings falling off" would not be the first issue I'd worry about.

The question is unlikely as simple as is the Pegasus suitable for any specific aerobatic maneuver, prohibited by the flight manual or otherwise, and more is the pilot suitably skilled to do something in a certain aircraft. And I doubt folks here can guess about your skills.

[Eric Munk]

Most French-built gliders are prohibited from spinning in their manuals as
I
recall. Pegasus spin recovery is in the manual. It can be quite vicious in
spins,
especially with rear CoG.

[Peter Wilson[_3_]]

You might be interested in this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeI2LlEzOT4

[Tango Eight]

On Sunday, April 8, 2018 at 9:15:06 AM UTC-4, Peter Wilson wrote:
> You might be interested in this
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeI2LlEzOT4

That video is brilliant. This goes out on my club chat email.


best,
Evan Ludeman / T8

[[email protected]]

So, what makes one glider more likely than another to exceed VNE in a spin recovery? Lack of elevator authority? A Pegase isn't more slippery than any other modern glider, right?

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, April 8, 2018 at 9:15:06 AM UTC-4, Peter Wilson wrote:
> You might be interested in this
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeI2LlEzOT4

Seems like in this video the speed bleeds off with not much of an increase in pitch attitude while the bank is progressively increased. But the bank is never extreme. He does say he gets the pre-stall buffet, at least with the yaw string straight. But with inside over-rudder (skidding turn) no warning. Not clear whether the glider type (and CG position) in the video is more susceptible to spinning in that attitude than other types.

Actual spin training in sailplanes seems uncommon in the USA these days. As part of CFIG training we got some nominal bit of it. Luckily for me, some years back an instructor insisted we do multiple full spin entries and recoveries. That was in a Blanik.

In my own glider, given that the CG is near the rear limit, I avoid spins, but of course sometimes get to feel what it's like on the edge of stall or spin entry while thermalling at low speeds in turbulent conditions. The important thing is to recognize the warnings and recover early.

[JS[_5_]]

If the Pegase manual includes spin recovery using stick and rudder, they didn't expect the wings to come off.
The LS6 flight manual includes 2.6: Spins not approved and 3.3: Spin recovery. Perhaps this is because about every third turn goes flat? It was a fun ride from over 10,000' AGL, but likely less fun if started low and you count to three.

Peter, thanks for the link to Mike's excellent video.
Spin training seems incomplete when only practicing in a "bus class" glider.
Jim

[Jim[_33_]]

On Sunday, April 8, 2018 at 2:06:37 AM UTC-7, Dan S wrote:
> My Pegase 101's flight manual states that aerobatic maneuvers including intentional spins are prohibited.
>
> I'm keen to test the behaviour of the glider in a spin and also the spin recovery procedure.
>
> Is the Pegase really unsuitable for intentional spins, will the wings fall off?

You are braver than I am to even ask the question. For me, if the POH says don't do it I try to not do it.

[Magnetar]

Hi,

I have quite a few hours on the Pegase and I have tried spins on this airplane. Of course, one should always follow the indications of the manual.
That being said, I believe it is important to know how your airplane will behave in certain situations, especially if you are signed off on a new type of glider.

On my first flight on the Pegase, I took it to cloud base (close to) and then started doing some tests to evaluate how it was responding to 45 degrees bank, 60 degrees bank and more. I also did a few stalls, with and without spoilers. After feeling confident in the behavior and recovery, I climbed up and tried a gentle spin (1 turn).
The one thing i noticed was the sharp drop of the inner wing which was immediately followed by gentle rotation. I only had to release the stick and exited the spin very quickly. The speed built up to 200kph but was still within the limits. I would say that like any glass ship this is the most critical aspect of spin recovery, just watch the speed, pull back gently and recover.
It is possible that depending on your CG you might have to use rudder but that's common practice anyway.
I once was in a very rough thermal with lots of gusts and no clearly defined core, my inner wing dropped but I managed to easily get it back with some rudder and speed. I believe this was more due to my slow/banked attitude at that time than anything else.

The Pegase is a great sailplane with no vicious behavior: it will always warn you (buffeting for instance) before stalling or spinning. Spin is gentle as well with no hidden/unintentional behavior so I won't see an issue to test this maneuver, just make sure you have enough altitude, a cleared airspace around AND below and announce over the radio.

Magnetar

[Chris Rowland[_2_]]

At 13:40 08 April 2018, wrote:
>So, what makes one glider more likely than another to exceed VNE in a
spin
>recovery? Lack of elevator authority? A Pegase isn't more slippery than
any
>other modern glider, right?
>
I think that all modern gliders will be going pretty fast in the recovery
from a spin. How fast depends on the skill of the pilot, after all while a
well executed spin demo in a Ka13 can be done without exceeding 80 kts a
pupil can easily go through 100 kts and be close to VNE.

I think all gliders have to demonstrate recovery from a spin but what a
test pilot can do may be beyond the average pilot. Some manufacturers may
be more cautious than others.

Chris

[[email protected]]

During JAR22 type certification, the Pegase was only certified in the "utility" category. Similar to the LS gliders, any kind of aerobatics like intentional spinning has not been part of the type certification process.

That does not necessarily mean that it has bad habits while spinning - it was simply not included in type certification. Hence intentional spinning is prohibited per the flight manual.

However, the type certification rules do contain requirements on spin recovery behaviour for the case of unintentional spins. These have to be proven during certification and the flight manual needs to include information on spin recovery.

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

If the POH says spins are prohibited, what is compelling you to want to expand the flight envelope. Have a lot of flight test experience? Have experience designing a flight test program? Asking on RAS for advice on spinning a glider that the manufacturer POH says is prohibited? No one has said it so I will
say it, What's wrong with you? And I say that with all due respect. When a glider goes vertical or beyond it can get to VNE fast. Spins can also turn into a spiral dive while you are applying anti-spin inputs. The POH on my ASH-26e prohibited spins so I never felt compelled to test fate. My Nimbus 4 I did not spin but I did do a full set of turning stalls and one accidental quarter turn spin. recovery from insipient spin is what is important. Watch below:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsbW0e-kN50

On Sunday, April 8, 2018 at 2:06:37 AM UTC-7, Dan S wrote:
> My Pegase 101's flight manual states that aerobatic maneuvers including intentional spins are prohibited.
>
> I'm keen to test the behaviour of the glider in a spin and also the spin recovery procedure.
>
> Is the Pegase really unsuitable for intentional spins, will the wings fall off?

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Tue, 10 Apr 2018 08:42:09 -0700, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:

> If the POH says spins are prohibited, what is compelling you to want to
> expand the flight envelope. Have a lot of flight test experience? Have
> experience designing a flight test program? Asking on RAS for advice on
> spinning a glider that the manufacturer POH says is prohibited? No one
> has said it so I will
> say it, What's wrong with you? And I say that with all due respect.
> When a glider goes vertical or beyond it can get to VNE fast. Spins
> can also turn into a spiral dive while you are applying anti-spin
> inputs. The POH on my ASH-26e prohibited spins so I never felt
> compelled to test fate. My Nimbus 4 I did not spin but I did do a full
> set of turning stalls and one accidental quarter turn spin. recovery
> from insipient spin is what is important. Watch below:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsbW0e-kN50
>
I've spun that particular Junior several times, as well as getting all
three Silver Badge legs in it. Silver height and duration before I got
Bronze, and Silver distance immediately after getting the Bronze XC
endorsement.

The one thing I'd say is: be sure to read the POH before you spin a
Junior because it has three different spin modes depending on pilot
weight, and you really need to know which mode to expect.

I'm a lightweight: in my weight category a Junior self-recovers after 2.5
turns, even if the controls are still crossed. Thats' described in the
manual. They're fairly draggy and (as you could hear) the cockpit gets
quite loud above 80 kts or so (VNE is 118 kts), so if you're paying
attention you're unlikely to get near VNE during spin recovery.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org