Wanting to start a new glider club [Archive]

April 24th 18, 01:26 AM

On Monday, April 23, 2018 at 1:56:24 PM UTC-7, John Foster wrote:
> Hi everyone
>
> I just started glider flying lessons and I'M HOOKED!!! Unfortunately, the closest glider club is 3:45 hr drive away. I also live in an area that looks to me to be perfect for ridge soaring, with a range of mountains facing the west that runs for at least 85 miles, and possibly longer. We have an airport close by with a 4800' runway, about 2-3 miles west of the mountains. A friend is a CFI and A&P, and is interested in getting his "#1glider ticket" as well. There are a few other folks in the area that have expressed varying interest in flying gliders as well. But as it currently stands, no one (except one possible individual that I haven't yet talked to) in the area actually flies gliders. My friend and I have talked about the possibility of starting a local club. What would be the best way to go about doing this?

Your #1 issue is finding a CFIG in your area, which you can use the FAA airmen search feature to find.
#2 you are going to need a glider (DUH!).
#3 you will need tow pilots who are CURRENT to tow, or can get current.
#4 you will need a tow plane, which is a subject all onto itself.
#5 you will need to incorporate to limit liability.

These are not insignificant issues, but clubs have overcome them. Sometimes there are suitable aircraft locally, such as a Super Cub, that can be used for towing (given a supportive owner). The glider must be a two-place so you can give instruction, and if you operate commercially it must be certificated.

Tom

April 24th 18, 01:32 AM

At 22:03 23 April 2018, John Foster wrote:
>On Monday, April 23, 2018 at 3:06:32 PM UTC-6, Dave Nadler
wrote:
>> On Monday, April 23, 2018 at 4:56:24 PM UTC-4, John Foster
wrote:
>> > ...I also live in an area that looks to me to be perfect for ridge
>soaring,
>> > with a range of mountains facing the west that runs for at least
85
>miles
>>
>> Where are you?
>
>Ronan, MT. About 1hr north of Missoula.
>
I have made many flights up and down the Mission Range. I have
reached the Missions from both Thompson Falls and St. Ignatius.
& traveled well into the Glacier National Park. Nice place to fly

son_of_flubber

April 24th 18, 02:39 AM

You could form a syndicate and buy a self-launching glider.

John Foster

April 24th 18, 05:30 AM

On Monday, April 23, 2018 at 6:26:55 PM UTC-6, 2G wrote:
> On Monday, April 23, 2018 at 1:56:24 PM UTC-7, John Foster wrote:
> > Hi everyone
> >
> > I just started glider flying lessons and I'M HOOKED!!! Unfortunately, the closest glider club is 3:45 hr drive away. I also live in an area that looks to me to be perfect for ridge soaring, with a range of mountains facing the west that runs for at least 85 miles, and possibly longer. We have an airport close by with a 4800' runway, about 2-3 miles west of the mountains. A friend is a CFI and A&P, and is interested in getting his "#1glider ticket" as well. There are a few other folks in the area that have expressed varying interest in flying gliders as well. But as it currently stands, no one (except one possible individual that I haven't yet talked to) in the area actually flies gliders. My friend and I have talked about the possibility of starting a local club. What would be the best way to go about doing this?
>
> Your #1 issue is finding a CFIG in your area, which you can use the FAA airmen search feature to find.

Yes. I agree. Good thing is my friend who is the A&P, is also a CFI, who is interested in getting his CFIG.

> #2 you are going to need a glider (DUH!).

Will need money for this. What I struggle with is what to start with and when to pull the trigger on getting a club glider. I would expect this would be the last piece to put in place before actively recruiting club members, as the glider would have to be bought with club money, which would be raised through initiation fees and annual dues. However, in order to have enough money to buy a decent glider (2-33 in good shape, or a more expensive G 103), one would need a critical mass/number of members who are willing to fork out for the glider. Less members = higher buy-in; more members = harder to get interest until people see gliders actually flying around the area. What would be an acceptable initiation fee/club dues?

> #3 you will need tow pilots who are CURRENT to tow, or can get current.

My friend who is the A&P and CFI also has a Cessna 180 that he is planning to attach a tow hook to. He is planning to get his glider rating, as well as training/experience at towing. There is also another Super Cub in the area, but I haven't approached the owner yet to gauge interest in using it for towing. It's a possibility though.

> #4 you will need a tow plane, which is a subject all onto itself.

see above

> #5 you will need to incorporate to limit liability.

That is doable.
>
> These are not insignificant issues, but clubs have overcome them. Sometimes there are suitable aircraft locally, such as a Super Cub, that can be used for towing (given a supportive owner). The glider must be a two-place so you can give instruction, and if you operate commercially it must be certificated.
>
> Tom

An idea that has floated to the surface is once we have everything in place and are flying, to invite a reporter from a local news station to come for a ride and explain what we are trying to do. I would expect that the flying would be good enough here locally that we could easily draw from both Missoula and Kalispell, in between, and even from the greater NW Rocky Mountain region. It will take a bit of work, I expect, though. I would like to eventually get a winch operational here as well, to further help make flights more affordable. Yes, I'm aware good winches are incredibly expensive, so that will likely need to be a project for once things are well on their way, but it's nice to have big dreams, right?

Again, where I see one of the biggest challenges facing new clubs is the glider. Serviceable 2-seater gliders that aren't beat up, low performing 2-33s, that people are going to be excited to fly, are prohibitively expensive, unless a club has many members and is well-established. But you can't get to that point without a glider. I wish some glider manufacturer would build a reasonably well-performing glider new for an affordable amount (whatever that would be defined as), but at least a lot less than $75,000 for a used/rebuilt 2-33 or a ASK-21.

Tim Taylor

April 24th 18, 06:23 AM

Right now the best glider for most starting clubs are the Grob. The Blanik L23 is an other option. The L13 filled that gap for many years, but now most are stored. The club just to the south of you near Hamilton has a L13 being refurbished right now. Hopefully you are in contact with them.

A winch would be a good option for launching, especially if you have a ridge nearby that can be reached off a winch launch.

Paul T[_4_]

April 24th 18, 06:26 AM

At 04:30 24 April 2018, John Foster wrote:
>On Monday, April 23, 2018 at 6:26:55 PM UTC-6, 2G wrote:
>> On Monday, April 23, 2018 at 1:56:24 PM UTC-7, John Foster
wrote:
>> > Hi everyone
>> >=20
>> > I just started glider flying lessons and I'M HOOKED!!!
Unfortunately,
>=
>the closest glider club is 3:45 hr drive away. I also live in an area
>that=
> looks to me to be perfect for ridge soaring, with a range of
mountains
>fac=
>ing the west that runs for at least 85 miles, and possibly longer.
We
>have=
> an airport close by with a 4800' runway, about 2-3 miles west of
the
>mount=
>ains. A friend is a CFI and A&P, and is interested in getting his
>"#1glide=
>r ticket" as well. There are a few other folks in the area that have
>expre=
>ssed varying interest in flying gliders as well. But as it currently
>stand=
>s, no one (except one possible individual that I haven't yet talked
to) in
>=
>the area actually flies gliders. My friend and I have talked about
the
>pos=
>sibility of starting a local club. What would be the best way to go
about
>=
>doing this?
>>=20
>> Your #1 issue is finding a CFIG in your area, which you can use
the FAA
>a=
>irmen search feature to find.
>
>Yes. I agree. Good thing is my friend who is the A&P, is also a
CFI, who
>=
>is interested in getting his CFIG.
>
>> #2 you are going to need a glider (DUH!).
>
>Will need money for this. What I struggle with is what to start
with and
>w=
>hen to pull the trigger on getting a club glider. I would expect this
>woul=
>d be the last piece to put in place before actively recruiting club
>members=
>, as the glider would have to be bought with club money, which
would be
>rai=
>sed through initiation fees and annual dues. However, in order to
have
>eno=
>ugh money to buy a decent glider (2-33 in good shape, or a more
expensive
>G=
> 103), one would need a critical mass/number of members who are
willing to
>=
>fork out for the glider. Less members =3D higher buy-in; more
members =3D
>=
>harder to get interest until people see gliders actually flying around
the
>=
>area. What would be an acceptable initiation fee/club dues?
>
>
>> #3 you will need tow pilots who are CURRENT to tow, or can get
current.
>
>My friend who is the A&P and CFI also has a Cessna 180 that he is
planning
>=
>to attach a tow hook to. He is planning to get his glider rating, as
well
>=
>as training/experience at towing. There is also another Super Cub
in the
>a=
>rea, but I haven't approached the owner yet to gauge interest in
using it
>f=
>or towing. It's a possibility though.
>
>> #4 you will need a tow plane, which is a subject all onto itself.
>
>see above
>
>> #5 you will need to incorporate to limit liability.
>
>That is doable.
>>=20
>> These are not insignificant issues, but clubs have overcome
them.
>Sometim=
>es there are suitable aircraft locally, such as a Super Cub, that can
be
>us=
>ed for towing (given a supportive owner). The glider must be a
two-place
>so=
> you can give instruction, and if you operate commercially it must
be
>certi=
>ficated.
>>=20
>> Tom
>
>An idea that has floated to the surface is once we have everything
in
>place=
> and are flying, to invite a reporter from a local news station to
come
>for=
> a ride and explain what we are trying to do. I would expect that
the
>flyi=
>ng would be good enough here locally that we could easily draw
from both
>Mi=
>ssoula and Kalispell, in between, and even from the greater NW
Rocky
>Mounta=
>in region. It will take a bit of work, I expect, though. I would like
to
>=
>eventually get a winch operational here as well, to further help
make
>fligh=
>ts more affordable. Yes, I'm aware good winches are incredibly
expensive,
>=
>so that will likely need to be a project for once things are well on
their
>=
>way, but it's nice to have big dreams, right?
>
>Again, where I see one of the biggest challenges facing new clubs
is the
>gl=
>ider. Serviceable 2-seater gliders that aren't beat up, low
performing
>2-3=
>3s, that people are going to be excited to fly, are prohibitively
>expensive=
>, unless a club has many members and is well-established. But
you can't
>ge=
>t to that point without a glider. I wish some glider manufacturer
would
>bu=
>ild a reasonably well-performing glider new for an affordable
amount
>(whate=
>ver that would be defined as), but at least a lot less than $75,000
for a
>u=
>sed/rebuilt 2-33 or a ASK-21.

There used to be a gliding operation in Kallispell many years ago -
so maybe some 'old glider pilots' around - of course further up the
valley, you have possibly the best soaring in Canada at Invermere.

Surge

April 24th 18, 07:29 AM

If it were up to me I'd consider winch launching seeing as those mountains are very conveniently located.

Some advantages of a winch operation:
1. I would think that a second hand winch would be much cheaper to purchase than a type certified, tug aircraft. You don't need the latest SkyLaunch system to get gliders airborne.
2. Operational expenses of a winch are typically a fraction of those of a type certified aircraft. No annual inspections, no mandatory expensive overhaul schedules, much lower fuel consumption per launch, etc. A tug costs money to maintain even if it sits in a hangar doing nothing over winter.
3. You don't require a pilot with a tug rating. Sourcing and retaining tug rated pilots appears to be a problem for a number of soaring operations around the world.

I'm sure Bruno from Utah Soaring Association (Nephi) would be able to point you in the right direction if you are interested in setting up a winch launching operation. https://sites.google.com/site/nephisoaring/about-us

Paul T[_4_]

April 24th 18, 10:34 AM

At 06:29 24 April 2018, Surge wrote:
>If it were up to me I'd consider winch launching seeing as those
mountains
>=
>are very conveniently located.
>
>Some advantages of a winch operation:
>1. I would think that a second hand winch would be much cheaper
to
>purchase=
> than a type certified, tug aircraft. You don't need the latest
SkyLaunch
>s=
>ystem to get gliders airborne.
>2. Operational expenses of a winch are typically a fraction of those
of a
>t=
>ype certified aircraft. No annual inspections, no mandatory
expensive
>overh=
>aul schedules, much lower fuel consumption per launch, etc. A tug
costs
>mon=
>ey to maintain even if it sits in a hangar doing nothing over winter.
>3. You don't require a pilot with a tug rating. Sourcing and
retaining tug
>=
>rated pilots appears to be a problem for a number of soaring
operations
>aro=
>und the world.
>
>I'm sure Bruno from Utah Soaring Association (Nephi) would be
able to
>point=
> you in the right direction if you are interested in setting up a
winch
>lau=
>nching operation.
https://sites.google.com/site/nephisoaring/about-us

or maybe reverse pulley autotow - would be cheapest system to set
up if ground launching is allowed.

April 24th 18, 12:50 PM

On Tuesday, April 24, 2018 at 2:29:30 AM UTC-4, Surge wrote:
> If it were up to me I'd consider winch launching seeing as those mountains are very conveniently located.
>
> Some advantages of a winch operation:
> 1. I would think that a second hand winch would be much cheaper to purchase than a type certified, tug aircraft. You don't need the latest SkyLaunch system to get gliders airborne.
> 2. Operational expenses of a winch are typically a fraction of those of a type certified aircraft. No annual inspections, no mandatory expensive overhaul schedules, much lower fuel consumption per launch, etc. A tug costs money to maintain even if it sits in a hangar doing nothing over winter.
> 3. You don't require a pilot with a tug rating. Sourcing and retaining tug rated pilots appears to be a problem for a number of soaring operations around the world.
>
> I'm sure Bruno from Utah Soaring Association (Nephi) would be able to point you in the right direction if you are interested in setting up a winch launching operation. https://sites.google.com/site/nephisoaring/about-us

If you don't want to buy a brand new factory built winch or build one for yourself, consider buying a used one and importing it. Take a look here:
http://www.segelflug.de/osclass/index.php?page=search&sCategory=107
A 40' container with a DG500 in a trailer from Bremerhaven to Charleston, SC cost us under 2,000â‚¬. For most winches, a 20' one will do. Granted, you would have to add the transport to MT but that would still be cheaper than buying and maintaining a tug.
Building a winch from scratch is a fun club project but to get it right, seek the advice of those who have done it - this is not a 'hold my beer - watch this' project.

Uli
'AS'

Martin Gregorie[_6_]

April 24th 18, 01:35 PM

On Tue, 24 Apr 2018 04:50:11 -0700, AS wrote:

> On Tuesday, April 24, 2018 at 2:29:30 AM UTC-4, Surge wrote:
>> If it were up to me I'd consider winch launching seeing as those
>> mountains are very conveniently located.
>>
>> Some advantages of a winch operation:
>> 1. I would think that a second hand winch would be much cheaper to
>> purchase than a type certified, tug aircraft. You don't need the latest
>> SkyLaunch system to get gliders airborne.
>> 2. Operational expenses of a winch are typically a fraction of those of
>> a type certified aircraft. No annual inspections, no mandatory
>> expensive overhaul schedules, much lower fuel consumption per launch,
>> etc. A tug costs money to maintain even if it sits in a hangar doing
>> nothing over winter.
>> 3. You don't require a pilot with a tug rating. Sourcing and retaining
>> tug rated pilots appears to be a problem for a number of soaring
>> operations around the world.
>>
>> I'm sure Bruno from Utah Soaring Association (Nephi) would be able to
>> point you in the right direction if you are interested in setting up a
>> winch launching operation.
>> https://sites.google.com/site/nephisoaring/about-us
>
> If you don't want to buy a brand new factory built winch or build one
> for yourself, consider buying a used one and importing it. Take a look
> here:
> http://www.segelflug.de/osclass/index.php?page=search&sCategory=107 A
> 40' container with a DG500 in a trailer from Bremerhaven to Charleston,
> SC cost us under 2,000â‚¬. For most winches, a 20' one will do. Granted,
> you would have to add the transport to MT but that would still be
> cheaper than buying and maintaining a tug.
> Building a winch from scratch is a fun club project but to get it right,
> seek the advice of those who have done it - this is not a 'hold my beer
> - watch this' project.
>
As part of following Uli's suggestions, its probably worth taking a look
at this Skylaunch page

http://www.skylaunch.com/index2.php

because they have a range of products, from new build winches through re-
engineered older winches to what are effectively short kits for clubs
wanting to save money by building their own, and seeing the range of
possibilities and their cost implications should help your decision-
making.

My UK club has two winches; a new Skylaunch and one of their re-
engineered Tost winches. We operate seven days a week in summer and 5
days a week in winter (weather permitting - which it didn't this year)
and need two winches during the summer so operations are not impacted by
taking a winch offline for servicing.

--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

April 24th 18, 03:13 PM

On Tuesday, April 24, 2018 at 8:35:29 AM UTC-4, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Tue, 24 Apr 2018 04:50:11 -0700, AS wrote:
>
> > On Tuesday, April 24, 2018 at 2:29:30 AM UTC-4, Surge wrote:
> >> If it were up to me I'd consider winch launching seeing as those
> >> mountains are very conveniently located.
> >>
> >> Some advantages of a winch operation:
> >> 1. I would think that a second hand winch would be much cheaper to
> >> purchase than a type certified, tug aircraft. You don't need the latest
> >> SkyLaunch system to get gliders airborne.
> >> 2. Operational expenses of a winch are typically a fraction of those of
> >> a type certified aircraft. No annual inspections, no mandatory
> >> expensive overhaul schedules, much lower fuel consumption per launch,
> >> etc. A tug costs money to maintain even if it sits in a hangar doing
> >> nothing over winter.
> >> 3. You don't require a pilot with a tug rating. Sourcing and retaining
> >> tug rated pilots appears to be a problem for a number of soaring
> >> operations around the world.
> >>
> >> I'm sure Bruno from Utah Soaring Association (Nephi) would be able to
> >> point you in the right direction if you are interested in setting up a
> >> winch launching operation.
> >> https://sites.google.com/site/nephisoaring/about-us
> >
> > If you don't want to buy a brand new factory built winch or build one
> > for yourself, consider buying a used one and importing it. Take a look
> > here:
> > http://www.segelflug.de/osclass/index.php?page=search&sCategory=107 A
> > 40' container with a DG500 in a trailer from Bremerhaven to Charleston,
> > SC cost us under 2,000â‚¬. For most winches, a 20' one will do. Granted,
> > you would have to add the transport to MT but that would still be
> > cheaper than buying and maintaining a tug.
> > Building a winch from scratch is a fun club project but to get it right,
> > seek the advice of those who have done it - this is not a 'hold my beer
> > - watch this' project.
> >
> As part of following Uli's suggestions, its probably worth taking a look
> at this Skylaunch page
>
> http://www.skylaunch.com/index2.php
>
> because they have a range of products, from new build winches through re-
> engineered older winches to what are effectively short kits for clubs
> wanting to save money by building their own, and seeing the range of
> possibilities and their cost implications should help your decision-
> making.
>
> My UK club has two winches; a new Skylaunch and one of their re-
> engineered Tost winches. We operate seven days a week in summer and 5
> days a week in winter (weather permitting - which it didn't this year)
> and need two winches during the summer so operations are not impacted by
> taking a winch offline for servicing.
>
>
> --
> Martin | martin at
> Gregorie | gregorie dot org

Martin is correct. I met with the Skylaunch engineering team at past SSA-conventions and they would be a good company to partner with, if you want to rehabilitate and upgrade an older winch.
The same goes for Roman's Design made winches. Our local CAP wing had a Roman's Design winch for a season and it was a very well built unit. Either way, getting a commercial manufacturer involved will have the advantage of receiving an engineered solution that works but at a cost. So if your group is made up from folks that have two left hands with only thumbs on them, it is best to spend the money and get professional help. I have seen way too many examples of winches thrown together by shade-tree mechanics who thought they knew what they were doing.

Uli
'AS'

John Foster

April 24th 18, 04:00 PM

These are all great suggestions. Thanks for all the responses so far. Keep them coming!

Dan Marotta

April 24th 18, 04:04 PM

REÂ* #3 & 4:Â* Or you could have a winch operation.

On 4/23/2018 6:26 PM, 2G wrote:
> On Monday, April 23, 2018 at 1:56:24 PM UTC-7, John Foster wrote:
>> Hi everyone
>>
>> I just started glider flying lessons and I'M HOOKED!!! Unfortunately, the closest glider club is 3:45 hr drive away. I also live in an area that looks to me to be perfect for ridge soaring, with a range of mountains facing the west that runs for at least 85 miles, and possibly longer. We have an airport close by with a 4800' runway, about 2-3 miles west of the mountains. A friend is a CFI and A&P, and is interested in getting his "#1glider ticket" as well. There are a few other folks in the area that have expressed varying interest in flying gliders as well. But as it currently stands, no one (except one possible individual that I haven't yet talked to) in the area actually flies gliders. My friend and I have talked about the possibility of starting a local club. What would be the best way to go about doing this?
> Your #1 issue is finding a CFIG in your area, which you can use the FAA airmen search feature to find.
> #2 you are going to need a glider (DUH!).
> #3 you will need tow pilots who are CURRENT to tow, or can get current.
> #4 you will need a tow plane, which is a subject all onto itself.
> #5 you will need to incorporate to limit liability.
>
> These are not insignificant issues, but clubs have overcome them. Sometimes there are suitable aircraft locally, such as a Super Cub, that can be used for towing (given a supportive owner). The glider must be a two-place so you can give instruction, and if you operate commercially it must be certificated.
>
> Tom

--
Dan, 5J

April 24th 18, 04:47 PM

On Tuesday, April 24, 2018 at 8:00:43 AM UTC-7, John Foster wrote:
> These are all great suggestions. Thanks for all the responses so far. Keep them coming!

You might try approaching another nearby club to have a weekend camp at your airport. Have a charity fund raising event where rides are given and donations from the rides go to the charity. This will likely be covered by your local media. Everybody that gets a ride, or their parents are potential new club members.

You need to do a financial analysis to determine what initiation fees and dues should be. A place to start are other clubs. Most will share that data.

Tom

john firth

April 24th 18, 10:17 PM

[email protected]

April 25th 18, 07:39 AM

This is all cart before the horse stuff. To start a club the first thing you need to establish is a group of committed individuals with shared goals and sufficient funds and competences. Then, before expending effort and money, you need to thing long and hard about how you are going to train members and keep attracting more new members to cover the high drop out rate that seems endemic in gliding. Then the group needs to judge whether you are going to have the human and financial resources to cover all the other stuff involved in running a gliding operation - maintenance, regulatory, management etc. Then you need a site. Then you can decide on what hardware is most suitable.

John Foster

April 25th 18, 08:09 AM

On Wednesday, April 25, 2018 at 12:39:57 AM UTC-6, wrote:
> This is all cart before the horse stuff. To start a club the first thing you need to establish is a group of committed individuals with shared goals and sufficient funds and competences. Then, before expending effort and money, you need to thing long and hard about how you are going to train members and keep attracting more new members to cover the high drop out rate that seems endemic in gliding. Then the group needs to judge whether you are going to have the human and financial resources to cover all the other stuff involved in running a gliding operation - maintenance, regulatory, management etc. Then you need a site. Then you can decide on what hardware is most suitable.

Thanks for your thoughts. How would you suggest I go about finding a "committed group of individuals with shared goals and sufficient funds and competences" in the middle of an Indian Reservation? What would you suggest would be minimum "sufficient funds"? What would you suggest would be a minimum of "committed individuals"? I'm interested in your thoughts and ideas. I'm very excited about the potential for this, and when the time comes to literally get this project off the ground, I'd like to already have a lot of interest in the concept in the area, and a large potential audience to draw from.

Paul T[_4_]

April 25th 18, 10:13 AM

At 07:09 25 April 2018, John Foster wrote:
>On Wednesday, April 25, 2018 at 12:39:57 AM UTC-6,
wrote:
>> This is all cart before the horse stuff. To start a club the first
>thing=
> you need to establish is a group of committed individuals with
shared
>goal=
>s and sufficient funds and competences. Then, before expending
effort and
>=
>money, you need to thing long and hard about how you are going
to train
>mem=
>bers and keep attracting more new members to cover the high
drop out rate
>t=
>hat seems endemic in gliding. Then the group needs to judge
whether you
>ar=
>e going to have the human and financial resources to cover all the
other
>st=
>uff involved in running a gliding operation - maintenance,
regulatory,
>mana=
>gement etc. Then you need a site. Then you can decide on what
hardware
>is=
> most suitable.
>
>Thanks for your thoughts. How would you suggest I go about
finding a
>"comm=
>itted group of individuals with shared goals and sufficient funds
and
>compe=
>tences" in the middle of an Indian Reservation? What would you
suggest
>wou=
>ld be minimum "sufficient funds"? What would you suggest would
be a
>minimu=
>m of "committed individuals"? I'm interested in your thoughts
and ideas.
>=
> I'm very excited about the potential for this, and when the time
comes to
>=
>literally get this project off the ground, I'd like to already have a lot
>o=
>f interest in the concept in the area, and a large potential audience
to
>dr=
>aw from.

Think i would want to find out why the previous soaring operation in
Kalispell folded - could be a number of reasons - but may give you
an indicator as to if a club in the area is a viable option i.e do you
have the critical mass of population to draw from? You certainly have
the weather conditions for 1000km plus flights in northern Montana.
Has someone stated earlier you may be better off forming a
syndicate of licensed pilots to buy a self launching sailplane.

[email protected]

April 25th 18, 03:14 PM

On Monday, April 23, 2018 at 4:56:24 PM UTC-4, John Foster wrote:
> Hi everyone
>
> I just started glider flying lessons and I'M HOOKED!!! Unfortunately, the closest glider club is 3:45 hr drive away. I also live in an area that looks to me to be perfect for ridge soaring, with a range of mountains facing the west that runs for at least 85 miles, and possibly longer. We have an airport close by with a 4800' runway, about 2-3 miles west of the mountains. A friend is a CFI and A&P, and is interested in getting his "glider ticket" as well. There are a few other folks in the area that have expressed varying interest in flying gliders as well. But as it currently stands, no one (except one possible individual that I haven't yet talked to) in the area actually flies gliders. My friend and I have talked about the possibility of starting a local club. What would be the best way to go about doing this?

Excellent idea on forming a new club! My friend and fellow glider pilot did just that about 16 months ago and things have exceeded our expectations. The winch idea may be the way to go, it all depends on your location and airport facilities.
The tow plane may be more readily available than you might think. Try working out a tow contract or agreement with a local power pilot that may have a plane suitable for towing. You may find people willing to buy gliders and lease them back to the club. That is exactly what we did here in Vero Beach,Florida.
We may just be the fastest growing club in the country and we have big plans for the future. Check us out at Treasure Coast Soaring, and good luck on forming a new club. Bob

George Haeh

April 25th 18, 05:57 PM

Lethbridge Soaring Club operates most decent Saturdays out of Cowley
Alberta
with a Roman winch. Great winch, but after sale support thin.

lethbridgesoaring.ca

Check with us and come up for a Saturday. We also have flying weeks which
might justify the drive from Ronan. We are adding instructors and hope to
offer
more flying days during the week.

Unfortunately this year the field is still under so much snow we haven't
even
been able to get to the hangar (built two years ago).

We know all about starting a glider club.

son_of_flubber

April 25th 18, 07:06 PM

On Wednesday, April 25, 2018 at 3:09:27 AM UTC-4, John Foster wrote:
> How would you suggest I go about finding a "committed group of individuals with shared goals and sufficient funds and competences" in the middle of an Indian Reservation?

Your location in a sparsely populated area is the key obstacle.

Look at the history of Glider ops in similar locations.

Ronan MT is located in Lake County which had 28,947 people in 2013. It has a per capita income of $20,164

Salida CO is located in Chaffee which had 17,809 in 2010. It has a per capita income of $19,430

As of three years ago, there were several self-launch gliders based in Salida. The availability of a privately owned towplane for tows was uncertain.

Can others suggest other comparable glider operations?

Scott Williams

April 26th 18, 12:58 AM

Hey John,
Scott here, born in Bozeman, class of '79 Helena High.
I belong to a club here in Oklahoma, Operating out of Hinton Municipal Airport
located about 45 miles west of Oklahoma City.

Just wishing you the best of luck,
Scott N8915

John Cochrane[_3_]

April 26th 18, 03:36 AM

Ask yourself the question, do you want to fly, or do you want to train? Those are really two different kinds of clubs. Training is not to be taken lightly. A model that might get you going sooner is to establish a club for flying, not trying to start an ab-initio flight school at the same time. Send people to one of the excellent commercial operators to get licenses, and focus your club around flying. That still means a towplane, some gliders of better performance than a 2-33, enough instructors for checkout, and most of all one or two single seaters to share. Gliders like Pegasus, ASW19, discus, etc., split 3-4 ways are remarkably cost effective.

John Cochrane

Dan Marotta

April 26th 18, 03:04 PM

Hi Scott,

I just looked at Hinton Muni on google maps and didn't see a single
glider trailer.Â* Are you flying out of another airport?

On 4/25/2018 5:58 PM, Scott Williams wrote:
> Hey John,
> Scott here, born in Bozeman, class of '79 Helena High.
> I belong to a club here in Oklahoma, Operating out of Hinton Municipal Airport
> located about 45 miles west of Oklahoma City.
>
> Just wishing you the best of luck,
> Scott N8915

--
Dan, 5J

Frank Whiteley

April 26th 18, 03:19 PM

On Thursday, April 26, 2018 at 8:04:21 AM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Hi Scott,
>
> I just looked at Hinton Muni on google maps and didn't see a single
> glider trailer.Â* Are you flying out of another airport?
>
> On 4/25/2018 5:58 PM, Scott Williams wrote:
> > Hey John,
> > Scott here, born in Bozeman, class of '79 Helena High.
> > I belong to a club here in Oklahoma, Operating out of Hinton Municipal Airport
> > located about 45 miles west of Oklahoma City.
> >
> > Just wishing you the best of luck,
> > Scott N8915
>
> --
> Dan, 5J

Last time I was at Hinton, the gliders and tow plane were in the hangar (no other aircraft). Could be when the image was taken. Winter may have found gliders in trailers in hangar. Summer, gliders rigged in hangar and trailers out side.

Frank Whiteley

Scott Williams

April 27th 18, 02:55 AM

Hi Dan,
the goggle maps image is from about three years ago,
but there are two enclosed trailers and four or five empty open frame trailers,
just south of the hangar.
Frank is right, 5-6 gliders in trailers inside and 5-6 assembled gliders plus tow plane.
Hinton airport is very supportive of our club!

Good lift,
Scott.

Dan Marotta

April 27th 18, 03:33 AM

Thanks!

On 4/26/2018 7:55 PM, Scott Williams wrote:
> Hi Dan,
> the goggle maps image is from about three years ago,
> but there are two enclosed trailers and four or five empty open frame trailers,
> just south of the hangar.
> Frank is right, 5-6 gliders in trailers inside and 5-6 assembled gliders plus tow plane.
> Hinton airport is very supportive of our club!
>
> Good lift,
> Scott.

--
Dan, 5J

[email protected]

April 27th 18, 03:34 AM

[email protected]

April 27th 18, 03:40 AM

John Foster

April 28th 18, 05:22 AM

On Tuesday, April 24, 2018 at 3:17:43 PM UTC-6, john firth wrote:
> On Monday, April 23, 2018 at 4:56:24 PM UTC-4, John Foster wrote:
> > Hi everyone
> >
> > I just started glider flying lessons and I'M HOOKED!!! Unfortunately, the closest glider club is 3:45 hr drive away. I also live in an area that looks to me to be perfect for ridge soaring, with a range of mountains facing the west that runs for at least 85 miles, and possibly longer. We have an airport close by with a 4800' runway, about 2-3 miles west of the mountains. A friend is a CFI and A&P, and is interested in getting his "glider ticket" as well. There are a few other folks in the area that have expressed varying interest in flying gliders as well. But as it currently stands, no one (except one possible individual that I haven't yet talked to) in the area actually flies gliders. My friend and I have talked about the possibility of starting a local club. What would be the best way to go about doing this?
>
> Car tow might be the most economical way to launch, if the a/p mgt.. will let you; looks like 5000ft of hard top, which is more than adequate.
> Moreover, driver training is easier than starting a newbie on a winch.
> JMF

I spoke to the airport manager today, and he indicated he would need to discuss it with the board, but didn't see why we wouldn't be able to do auto tow here. Our runway is about 4800', oriented parallel to the mountains, but about 2.5 to 3 miles to the west of the mountains. It would be nice to be able to get as high as possible in order to get over to the mountains, particularly with a low-performance bird like a 2-33 or a 2-22. The idea of the reverse auto tow using a pulley really sounds appealing, and to me this more closely approximates the action of a winch (other than the acceleration). Anyone know where one could get a lead on the rope used to string high-voltage cables? That sounds ideal for a tow rope.

One of my objectives in this endeavor is to keep it as affordable as possible. There is a lot of poverty around here, and if there was a way to keep launching cost down to a minimum, that would be ideal.

son_of_flubber

April 28th 18, 06:00 AM

On Saturday, April 28, 2018 at 12:22:25 AM UTC-4, John Foster wrote:

>It would be nice to be able to get as high as possible in order to get over to the mountains

You only need to get high enough to have a couple minutes to find and catch a thermal. Once you gain a bit of altitude in that first thermal, you can fly upwind to find better thermals (and get away from the pattern). Eventually you get high enough to fly downwind over to the mountains with enough reserve altitude to fly upwind back to the airport.

The good news is that pilots at winch and auto tow operations get a lot of launching and landing practice, and when you do finally catch a thermal, it is a hoot.

The other good thing about winching (and autotow?) is that launch and land practice/training is great fun even on days with no lift. Winching is much more fun than aerotow, and for the price of a single aerotow, you can do 5-6 winch launches.

[email protected]

April 28th 18, 07:33 AM

John,

I hope you can get this operation off the ground. I did some power plane flying in that area some years back and it looks spectacular for glider flying. Montana's nickname is "big sky country" after all.....

Best of luck,

Ron Clark
LS3
Evergreen Soaring Club

Paul T[_4_]

April 28th 18, 04:14 PM

Some useful links. I was a member of a club that did straight reverse
pulley autotow off grass, just a pulley on a rotating shackle on a chain
staked into the grass, and we used to launch a 22M Kestrel with that
system. You have to be carefull with initial rotation as acceleration is
not as fast as a winch - using a 2:1 and 3:1 pulley system might help
with that.

http://www.ukmsg.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/SG-Dec-2013.-
Expedition-pilots-guide-to-aunching.pdf

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0rv1zOmyWg

http://www.pas.rochester.edu/~cline/Carswell-ground-launch.pdf

http://www.coloradosoaring.org/thinking_pages/ground_launching/reve
rse_pulley/default.htm

Chris Rowland[_2_]

April 28th 18, 09:43 PM

I did most of my ab initio training and learning to be an instructor on
autotow.

I'd suggest avoiding reverse pulley because it's difficult for both the tow
car driver and pilot to know when to finish the launch. With straight
autotow it's easy, stop sufficiently before the end of the runway that you
can drive forward and lay the cable out.

Another issue is cross winds. The cable will drift downwind and looking at
Ronan on Google Earth there are fields with irrigation equipment there. The
farmers will take a dim view of the launch cable being dragged through
their irrigation kit.

Chris

At 15:14 28 April 2018, Paul T wrote:
> Some useful links. I was a member of a club that did straight reverse
>pulley autotow off grass, just a pulley on a rotating shackle on a chain
>staked into the grass, and we used to launch a 22M Kestrel with that
>system. You have to be carefull with initial rotation as acceleration is
>not as fast as a winch - using a 2:1 and 3:1 pulley system might help
>with that.
>
>
>
>http://www.ukmsg.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/SG-Dec-2013.-
>Expedition-pilots-guide-to-aunching.pdf
>
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0rv1zOmyWg
>
>http://www.pas.rochester.edu/~cline/Carswell-ground-launch.pdf
>
>http://www.coloradosoaring.org/thinking_pages/ground_launching/reve
>rse_pulley/default.htm
>
>

April 29th 18, 05:01 AM

On Friday, April 27, 2018 at 9:22:25 PM UTC-7, John Foster wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 24, 2018 at 3:17:43 PM UTC-6, john firth wrote:
> > On Monday, April 23, 2018 at 4:56:24 PM UTC-4, John Foster wrote:
> > > Hi everyone
> > >
> > > I just started glider flying lessons and I'M HOOKED!!! Unfortunately, the closest glider club is 3:45 hr drive away. I also live in an area that looks to me to be perfect for ridge soaring, with a range of mountains facing the west that runs for at least 85 miles, and possibly longer. We have an airport close by with a 4800' runway, about 2-3 miles west of the mountains. A friend is a CFI and A&P, and is interested in getting his "glider ticket" as well. There are a few other folks in the area that have expressed varying interest in flying gliders as well. But as it currently stands, no one (except one possible individual that I haven't yet talked to) in the area actually flies gliders. My friend and I have talked about the possibility of starting a local club. What would be the best way to go about doing this?
> >
> > Car tow might be the most economical way to launch, if the a/p mgt.. will let you; looks like 5000ft of hard top, which is more than adequate.
> > Moreover, driver training is easier than starting a newbie on a winch.
> > JMF
>
> I spoke to the airport manager today, and he indicated he would need to discuss it with the board, but didn't see why we wouldn't be able to do auto tow here. Our runway is about 4800', oriented parallel to the mountains, but about 2.5 to 3 miles to the west of the mountains. It would be nice to be able to get as high as possible in order to get over to the mountains, particularly with a low-performance bird like a 2-33 or a 2-22. The idea of the reverse auto tow using a pulley really sounds appealing, and to me this more closely approximates the action of a winch (other than the acceleration). Anyone know where one could get a lead on the rope used to string high-voltage cables? That sounds ideal for a tow rope.
>
> One of my objectives in this endeavor is to keep it as affordable as possible. There is a lot of poverty around here, and if there was a way to keep launching cost down to a minimum, that would be ideal.

I would be surprised if the board would agree to an auto towing operation for one simple reason: liability. Long cables and general aviation just don't mix. You already indicated that you had a friend with with a C180. If he got his CFIG and you got a G103, you could do commercial rides, which are the real revenue generator. You really need to talk to a few other clubs to get a handle on the finances, which will either make you or break you. You also might consider going to a commercial site where you can get your training by total immersion. You could then give rides to prospective club members.
You asked, again, about how to attract club members after I gave you a good suggestion. I will give you one more: advertise, it's tried and true.
Somebody is going to have to provide startup money for the club in the way of a loan. That would be you in combination with whomever else you can find.. You can get aircraft loans, but you will need money for all these other expenses.

Tom

John Foster

April 29th 18, 05:20 AM

On Tuesday, April 24, 2018 at 9:47:28 AM UTC-6, 2G wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 24, 2018 at 8:00:43 AM UTC-7, John Foster wrote:
> > These are all great suggestions. Thanks for all the responses so far. Keep them coming!
>
> You might try approaching another nearby club to have a weekend camp at your airport. Have a charity fund raising event where rides are given and donations from the rides go to the charity. This will likely be covered by your local media. Everybody that gets a ride, or their parents are potential new club members.
>
> You need to do a financial analysis to determine what initiation fees and dues should be. A place to start are other clubs. Most will share that data.
>
> Tom

Thanks Tom

These are good ideas. I've already talked to the nearest club (almost 4hr drive away). I've also thought about getting local news/media involved to get the word out. I've also started a Facebook interest group page, but as of yet, not much activity or interest there other than those I've added myself. I don't anticipate we will be flying before summer of 2019 anyway, but getting some of the groundwork done ahead of time, and trying to stimulate local interest is what I'm working on now. Also thinking of putting up flyers in the local airports pilot's lounges.

Again, keeping costs down and making it accessible to most folks is one of my main goals. Aviation in general is so expensive these days, that it is driving a lot of the younger generation away.

Paul T[_4_]

April 29th 18, 10:19 AM

At 20:43 28 April 2018, Chris Rowland wrote:
>I did most of my ab initio training and learning to be an instructor
o
>autotow.
>
>I'd suggest avoiding reverse pulley because it's difficult for both
the to
>car driver and pilot to know when to finish the launch. With
straigh
>autotow it's easy, stop sufficiently before the end of the runway
that yo
>can drive forward and lay the cable out.
>
>Another issue is cross winds. The cable will drift downwind and
looking a
>Ronan on Google Earth there are fields with irrigation equipment
there. Th
>farmers will take a dim view of the launch cable being dragged
throug
>their irrigation kit.
>
>Chris

Don't see what the problem is at all with reverse pulley - had many
launches that way - the other end of the runway is just as easily
visible to the tow car driver and as speed decays the glider pilot
pulls off - think you creating an issue where none exists.

If you have a straight reverse pulley system and set it up properly,
with removable strops t both ends the cable is waiting for the next
glider, the car drives back and connects to the other end of the cable
and your ready to launch again.

Some reverse pulley systems where just way over the top -KISS is
the answer. Doubt these guys will be doing hundreds of launches a
day.

Crosswinds are something every ground launching site has to
contend with and 1000's of sites around the world seem to manage
ok with proper training - seem to remember the advice was to have
at least 80m width of clear land to launch from.

Frank Whiteley

April 29th 18, 11:22 PM

On Sunday, April 29, 2018 at 3:30:06 AM UTC-6, Paul T wrote:
> At 20:43 28 April 2018, Chris Rowland wrote:
> >I did most of my ab initio training and learning to be an instructor
> o
> >autotow.
> >
> >I'd suggest avoiding reverse pulley because it's difficult for both
> the to
> >car driver and pilot to know when to finish the launch. With
> straigh
> >autotow it's easy, stop sufficiently before the end of the runway
> that yo
> >can drive forward and lay the cable out.
> >
> >Another issue is cross winds. The cable will drift downwind and
> looking a
> >Ronan on Google Earth there are fields with irrigation equipment
> there. Th
> >farmers will take a dim view of the launch cable being dragged
> throug
> >their irrigation kit.
> >
> >Chris
>
>
>
> Don't see what the problem is at all with reverse pulley - had many
> launches that way - the other end of the runway is just as easily
> visible to the tow car driver and as speed decays the glider pilot
> pulls off - think you creating an issue where none exists.
>
> If you have a straight reverse pulley system and set it up properly,
> with removable strops t both ends the cable is waiting for the next
> glider, the car drives back and connects to the other end of the cable
> and your ready to launch again.
>
> Some reverse pulley systems where just way over the top -KISS is
> the answer. Doubt these guys will be doing hundreds of launches a
> day.
>
> Crosswinds are something every ground launching site has to
> contend with and 1000's of sites around the world seem to manage
> ok with proper training - seem to remember the advice was to have
> at least 80m width of clear land to launch from.

http://coloradosoaring.org/thinking_pages/ground_launching/reverse_pulley/default.htm

I've had a couple of chats with John Foster. There are raised runway lights. Reverse pulley allows a lot more control of the line than direct auto tow, so could be an option. Today, UHMWPE ropes, spectra, dyneema, or polyolefin drag line might work for reverse pulley, though I'm unaware of an operation doing so.

Frank Whiteley

Don Johnstone[_4_]

April 30th 18, 12:08 AM

At 14:13 24 April 2018, AS wrote:

>
>Martin is correct. I met with the Skylaunch engineering team at
past
>SSA-co=
>nventions and they would be a good company to partner with, if
you want to
>=
>rehabilitate and upgrade an older winch.
>The same goes for Roman's Design made winches. Our local CAP
wing had a
>Rom=
>an's Design winch for a season and it was a very well built unit.
Either
>wa=
>y, getting a commercial manufacturer involved will have the
advantage of
>re=
>ceiving an engineered solution that works but at a cost. So if your
group
>i=
>s made up from folks that have two left hands with only thumbs on
them, it
>=
>is best to spend the money and get professional help. I have seen
way too
>m=
>any examples of winches thrown together by shade-tree mechanics
who
>thought=
> they knew what they were doing.
>
>Uli
>'AS'

It may be simpler than that. What you appear to have in the US that
we don't have so many of is small machine shops. While building a
winch from scratch may not be the way forward upgrading/repairing
a non functioning winch may be an option. Most of the people
running small machine shops are enthusiasts who just enjoy fixing
stuff and in many cases are first class machinists and engineers.
They do not have to know how to design winches, just fix an old
winch that has been discarded. If you want to look at the sort of
person I am thinking of check out Abom69 and others on Youtube

>

[email protected]

May 1st 18, 05:16 AM

On Monday, April 23, 2018 at 2:56:24 PM UTC-6, John Foster wrote:
> Hi everyone
>
> I just started glider flying lessons and I'M HOOKED!!! Unfortunately, the closest glider club is 3:45 hr drive away. I also live in an area that looks to me to be perfect for ridge soaring, with a range of mountains facing the west that runs for at least 85 miles, and possibly longer. We have an airport close by with a 4800' runway, about 2-3 miles west of the mountains. A friend is a CFI and A&P, and is interested in getting his "glider ticket" as well. There are a few other folks in the area that have expressed varying interest in flying gliders as well. But as it currently stands, no one (except one possible individual that I haven't yet talked to) in the area actually flies gliders. My friend and I have talked about the possibility of starting a local club. What would be the best way to go about doing this?

Hello John. I just learned about you from friends in Colorado today. While we are not a formal club, Big Sky Soaring is a small but active group of glider pilots, tow pilots and instructors operating here in Bozeman. We train in a 2-33 and a Duo Discus out of Bozeman and Three Forks Airports. We tow with a 260 Pawnee and we also winch launch on weekends at the Three Forks Airport with a winch that I designed and built. The winch has been highly successful. I designed and built it and would be happy to assist you in building a winch. Bottom line is that we as a group would be very happy to assist you get started. We can provide instruction for gliding, Tow pilot check outs, mountain flying and Winch launching at both ends of the rope. We train pilots for ridge and wave soaring on the Bridger Mountains. I am a glider DPE for all glider ratings including initial CFI. Check us out facebook.com/soaringbozeman/

If interested I can tell you the history of the club Kalispell club and the operation that was in Hamilton.

John Foster

May 1st 18, 06:47 PM

On Monday, April 30, 2018 at 10:16:53 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> On Monday, April 23, 2018 at 2:56:24 PM UTC-6, John Foster wrote:
> > Hi everyone
> >
> > I just started glider flying lessons and I'M HOOKED!!! Unfortunately, the closest glider club is 3:45 hr drive away. I also live in an area that looks to me to be perfect for ridge soaring, with a range of mountains facing the west that runs for at least 85 miles, and possibly longer. We have an airport close by with a 4800' runway, about 2-3 miles west of the mountains. A friend is a CFI and A&P, and is interested in getting his "glider ticket" as well. There are a few other folks in the area that have expressed varying interest in flying gliders as well. But as it currently stands, no one (except one possible individual that I haven't yet talked to) in the area actually flies gliders. My friend and I have talked about the possibility of starting a local club. What would be the best way to go about doing this?
>
>
>
> Hello John. I just learned about you from friends in Colorado today. While we are not a formal club, Big Sky Soaring is a small but active group of glider pilots, tow pilots and instructors operating here in Bozeman. We train in a 2-33 and a Duo Discus out of Bozeman and Three Forks Airports. We tow with a 260 Pawnee and we also winch launch on weekends at the Three Forks Airport with a winch that I designed and built. The winch has been highly successful. I designed and built it and would be happy to assist you in building a winch. Bottom line is that we as a group would be very happy to assist you get started. We can provide instruction for gliding, Tow pilot check outs, mountain flying and Winch launching at both ends of the rope. We train pilots for ridge and wave soaring on the Bridger Mountains. I am a glider DPE for all glider ratings including initial CFI. Check us out facebook..com/soaringbozeman/
>
> If interested I can tell you the history of the club Kalispell club and the operation that was in Hamilton.

Thanks Greg. I have chatted some with Ursula but will definitely be talking with you guys in the future. I'm hoping to get my checkride later this summer, so will need to come for a "visit" for that at the very least. I'm definitely interested in getting some training in mountain flying before attempting to fly here in the Mission Valley, and getting signed off on winch launching is also on the list. Thanks.

Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)

May 1st 18, 07:39 PM

JF, have you checked with SSA or AOPA on methods to start a flying club? I am members of both, both have some basic guidelines on setting up your situation.

I think talking to locals/other sites not competing with you are a good start.
SSA and AOPA may have more legal info.

Good luck on your endeavor, hope it works out.

I used to fly at a commercial operation in SE NY, it became a club, thus I have seen some of that side.

Frank Whiteley

May 1st 18, 08:42 PM

On Tuesday, May 1, 2018 at 12:39:15 PM UTC-6, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> JF, have you checked with SSA or AOPA on methods to start a flying club? I am members of both, both have some basic guidelines on setting up your situation.
>
> I think talking to locals/other sites not competing with you are a good start.
> SSA and AOPA may have more legal info.
>
> Good luck on your endeavor, hope it works out.
>
> I used to fly at a commercial operation in SE NY, it became a club, thus I have seen some of that side.

I've had a couple of conversations with John, one on behalf of the SSA. I've actually been working on an SSA project for AOPA for their club map. The info they wanted/needed involved some additional digging and visiting many chapter web sites. I own John more info.

Perhaps he and Greg can get a glider and winch on a 'barnstorming' visit to his location to generate interest and as a proof of concept for the location. Might help generate some interest.

Jim Callaway also reached out John. Jim and friends started the Hamilton Soaring Club, which may be a good model for a small community.

Frank Whiteley

John Foster

December 29th 18, 03:33 AM

On Sunday, April 29, 2018 at 4:22:59 PM UTC-6, Frank Whiteley wrote:
> On Sunday, April 29, 2018 at 3:30:06 AM UTC-6, Paul T wrote:
> > At 20:43 28 April 2018, Chris Rowland wrote:
> > >I did most of my ab initio training and learning to be an instructor
> > o
> > >autotow.
> > >
> > >I'd suggest avoiding reverse pulley because it's difficult for both
> > the to
> > >car driver and pilot to know when to finish the launch. With
> > straigh
> > >autotow it's easy, stop sufficiently before the end of the runway
> > that yo
> > >can drive forward and lay the cable out.
> > >
> > >Another issue is cross winds. The cable will drift downwind and
> > looking a
> > >Ronan on Google Earth there are fields with irrigation equipment
> > there. Th
> > >farmers will take a dim view of the launch cable being dragged
> > throug
> > >their irrigation kit.
> > >
> > >Chris
> >
> >
> >
> > Don't see what the problem is at all with reverse pulley - had many
> > launches that way - the other end of the runway is just as easily
> > visible to the tow car driver and as speed decays the glider pilot
> > pulls off - think you creating an issue where none exists.
> >
> > If you have a straight reverse pulley system and set it up properly,
> > with removable strops t both ends the cable is waiting for the next
> > glider, the car drives back and connects to the other end of the cable
> > and your ready to launch again.
> >
> > Some reverse pulley systems where just way over the top -KISS is
> > the answer. Doubt these guys will be doing hundreds of launches a
> > day.
> >
> > Crosswinds are something every ground launching site has to
> > contend with and 1000's of sites around the world seem to manage
> > ok with proper training - seem to remember the advice was to have
> > at least 80m width of clear land to launch from.
>
> http://coloradosoaring.org/thinking_pages/ground_launching/reverse_pulley/default.htm
>
> I've had a couple of chats with John Foster. There are raised runway lights. Reverse pulley allows a lot more control of the line than direct auto tow, so could be an option. Today, UHMWPE ropes, spectra, dyneema, or polyolefin drag line might work for reverse pulley, though I'm unaware of an operation doing so.
>
> Frank Whiteley

Sorry to dig up this old thread, but now that winter has set in, I'm starting to think and plan more on this project. Do you happen to know where one could get one of these "polyolefin drag lines"? I've looked around a bit, but haven't seen any links for such. I'm also considering various designs for the pulley system. The one that you have linked from the Cotswold GC in Great Britain looks like it would take some effort to build. I've wondered about conscripting an old motorcycle wheel for this purpose and welding up a frame with guides for it to attach to a tow hitch of a pick-up truck. Any proven designs out there like this?

Frank Whiteley

December 29th 18, 05:26 AM

On Friday, December 28, 2018 at 8:33:58 PM UTC-7, John Foster wrote:
> On Sunday, April 29, 2018 at 4:22:59 PM UTC-6, Frank Whiteley wrote:
> > On Sunday, April 29, 2018 at 3:30:06 AM UTC-6, Paul T wrote:
> > > At 20:43 28 April 2018, Chris Rowland wrote:
> > > >I did most of my ab initio training and learning to be an instructor
> > > o
> > > >autotow.
> > > >
> > > >I'd suggest avoiding reverse pulley because it's difficult for both
> > > the to
> > > >car driver and pilot to know when to finish the launch. With
> > > straigh
> > > >autotow it's easy, stop sufficiently before the end of the runway
> > > that yo
> > > >can drive forward and lay the cable out.
> > > >
> > > >Another issue is cross winds. The cable will drift downwind and
> > > looking a
> > > >Ronan on Google Earth there are fields with irrigation equipment
> > > there. Th
> > > >farmers will take a dim view of the launch cable being dragged
> > > throug
> > > >their irrigation kit.
> > > >
> > > >Chris
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Don't see what the problem is at all with reverse pulley - had many
> > > launches that way - the other end of the runway is just as easily
> > > visible to the tow car driver and as speed decays the glider pilot
> > > pulls off - think you creating an issue where none exists.
> > >
> > > If you have a straight reverse pulley system and set it up properly,
> > > with removable strops t both ends the cable is waiting for the next
> > > glider, the car drives back and connects to the other end of the cable
> > > and your ready to launch again.
> > >
> > > Some reverse pulley systems where just way over the top -KISS is
> > > the answer. Doubt these guys will be doing hundreds of launches a
> > > day.
> > >
> > > Crosswinds are something every ground launching site has to
> > > contend with and 1000's of sites around the world seem to manage
> > > ok with proper training - seem to remember the advice was to have
> > > at least 80m width of clear land to launch from.
> >
> > http://coloradosoaring.org/thinking_pages/ground_launching/reverse_pulley/default.htm
> >
> > I've had a couple of chats with John Foster. There are raised runway lights. Reverse pulley allows a lot more control of the line than direct auto tow, so could be an option. Today, UHMWPE ropes, spectra, dyneema, or polyolefin drag line might work for reverse pulley, though I'm unaware of an operation doing so.
> >
> > Frank Whiteley
>
> Sorry to dig up this old thread, but now that winter has set in, I'm starting to think and plan more on this project. Do you happen to know where one could get one of these "polyolefin drag lines"? I've looked around a bit, but haven't seen any links for such. I'm also considering various designs for the pulley system. The one that you have linked from the Cotswold GC in Great Britain looks like it would take some effort to build. I've wondered about conscripting an old motorcycle wheel for this purpose and welding up a frame with guides for it to attach to a tow hitch of a pick-up truck. Any proven designs out there like this?

The Essex GC one had a reverse pulley set up. However the rig had a lot of stored energy in the pulley wheels. So a wire break could involve quite a mess. I launched on this rig a few times. I think the Cotswold rig was better. In both iterations, solid wire needs considerably more safety area than other methods.

The Cotswold GC was 200 members and 70 gliders. They also owned tow planes, mostly for wave days.

Now, they did pack in the reverse-pulley for a winch. Not sure exactly why, but cost was not the first consideration.

Frank Whiteley

James Thomson[_2_]

December 29th 18, 09:43 AM

At 03:33 29 December 2018, John Foster wrote:

>Sorry to dig up this old thread, but now that winter has set in, I'm
>starti=
>ng to think and plan more on this project. Do you happen to know where
>one=
> could get one of these "polyolefin drag lines"? I've looked around a
>bit,=
> but haven't seen any links for such. I'm also considering various
>designs=
> for the pulley system. The one that you have linked from the Cotswold
GC
>=
>in Great Britain looks like it would take some effort to build. I've
>wonde=
>red about conscripting an old motorcycle wheel for this purpose and
>welding=
> up a frame with guides for it to attach to a tow hitch of a pick-up
>truck.=
> Any proven designs out there like this?
>
Don't underestimate the loads involved - I doubt if a motorcycle wheel
could cope! The load on the rope from pulley to glider could be up to the

weak link strength and the same load will be in the rope from the pulley to

the towcar. This means that the pulley frame and the anchor point (or
anchor truck) has to withstand twice the weak link break load.

John Foster

December 30th 18, 04:04 AM

On Saturday, December 29, 2018 at 2:45:04 AM UTC-7, James Thomson wrote:
> At 03:33 29 December 2018, John Foster wrote:
>
> >Sorry to dig up this old thread, but now that winter has set in, I'm
> >starti=
> >ng to think and plan more on this project. Do you happen to know where
> >one=
> > could get one of these "polyolefin drag lines"? I've looked around a
> >bit,=
> > but haven't seen any links for such. I'm also considering various
> >designs=
> > for the pulley system. The one that you have linked from the Cotswold
> GC
> >=
> >in Great Britain looks like it would take some effort to build. I've
> >wonde=
> >red about conscripting an old motorcycle wheel for this purpose and
> >welding=
> > up a frame with guides for it to attach to a tow hitch of a pick-up
> >truck.=
> > Any proven designs out there like this?
> >
> Don't underestimate the loads involved - I doubt if a motorcycle wheel
> could cope! The load on the rope from pulley to glider could be up to the
>
> weak link strength and the same load will be in the rope from the pulley to
>
> the towcar. This means that the pulley frame and the anchor point (or
> anchor truck) has to withstand twice the weak link break load.

Yes. I expect this would be the case. Do you think a rig similar to the Cotswold design, but made from many roller blade wheel bearings would be able to withstand the forces involved? I would think the more bearings there were, the more the load would be spread out, but I'm not an engineer, so I don't know for sure.

John Foster

December 31st 18, 05:02 AM

I'm seriously looking at a reverse auto tow set-up to cut the costs down when starting up the club and am playing around with design concepts in my head. As far as rope goes, I am really impressed with Dyneema as a rope material, and from what I can gather, Samson Amsteel Blue Dyneema has a breaking strength of 1400 lbs for a rope only 7/64" diameter. That's about the thickness of a string! I can get a spool of it 3280 feet in length. Our runway is about 4,800, so we'd probably need to splice some additional length to be able to utilize the full length of the runway and maximize the height of the launch. Would need to use a weak link on each end though. For this application, would a single axle wheel like a motorcycle wheel rim work better for the pulley, or would something like the Cotswold design work better? The rope wouldn't have the extra mass that the piano wire did that they used in Cotswold.

Frank Whiteley

December 31st 18, 05:23 AM

On Sunday, December 30, 2018 at 10:02:46 PM UTC-7, John Foster wrote:
> I'm seriously looking at a reverse auto tow set-up to cut the costs down when starting up the club and am playing around with design concepts in my head. As far as rope goes, I am really impressed with Dyneema as a rope material, and from what I can gather, Samson Amsteel Blue Dyneema has a breaking strength of 1400 lbs for a rope only 7/64" diameter. That's about the thickness of a string! I can get a spool of it 3280 feet in length. Our runway is about 4,800, so we'd probably need to splice some additional length to be able to utilize the full length of the runway and maximize the height of the launch. Would need to use a weak link on each end though. For this application, would a single axle wheel like a motorcycle wheel rim work better for the pulley, or would something like the Cotswold design work better? The rope wouldn't have the extra mass that the piano wire did that they used in Cotswold.

1/8" for 2400lbs. Not sure is the small diameters are easily spliced buy I have a spool of 1/8", so well let you know.

You might get away with a 14" wheel. I wouldn't bother with a motorcycle wheel.

Have to grok on this a bit.

Frank Whiteley
Been there, done that

Dave Springford

December 31st 18, 03:38 PM

I bought 4000 ft of 5 mm diameter "dyneema" from the Shanghai Tough Rope and Webbing Company back in 2016 and we have been using it on our winch for 2 years.

http://www.toughrope.com/productshow_261.html

I tested it on the tensile machine at my college and it reached 3800 lbs before breaking. Lower than expected, but I had not mounted it very well in the machine and it was cut, more than it was broken, and 3800 is well above the 2200 lb weak link required for the K-21 so I didn't bother to mount it better and test it again.

Price in 2016 was $0.50 per meter and $200 in shipping. Much cheaper than Amsteel for pretty much the same thing.

JS[_5_]

December 31st 18, 08:43 PM

On Monday, December 31, 2018 at 7:38:21 AM UTC-8, Dave Springford wrote:
> I bought 4000 ft of 5 mm diameter "dyneema" from the Shanghai Tough Rope and Webbing Company back in 2016 and we have been using it on our winch for 2 years.
>
> http://www.toughrope.com/productshow_261.html
>
> I tested it on the tensile machine at my college and it reached 3800 lbs before breaking. Lower than expected, but I had not mounted it very well in the machine and it was cut, more than it was broken, and 3800 is well above the 2200 lb weak link required for the K-21 so I didn't bother to mount it better and test it again.
>
> Price in 2016 was $0.50 per meter and $200 in shipping. Much cheaper than Amsteel for pretty much the same thing.

HOWEVER...
Cheap Chinese Crap is exactly that.
A friend lost something heavy and valuable by using Chinese "Dyneema" in a winch. While lifting, the bit of string that was "rated" much higher than required broke and the thing fell.
Testing one section of this CCC doesn't mean the rest of it is better than a shoestring.
Jim

Dave Springford

December 31st 18, 08:59 PM

As mentioned above, we've been using it for 2 years and it is function as expected. No breaks, no problems, including one day with 90 launches without a stoppage.

December 31st 18, 09:34 PM

On Sunday, December 30, 2018 at 11:02:46 PM UTC-6, John Foster wrote:
> I'm seriously looking at a reverse auto tow set-up to cut the costs down when starting up the club and am playing around with design concepts in my head. As far as rope goes, I am really impressed with Dyneema as a rope material, and from what I can gather, Samson Amsteel Blue Dyneema has a breaking strength of 1400 lbs for a rope only 7/64" diameter. That's about the thickness of a string! I can get a spool of it 3280 feet in length. Our runway is about 4,800, so we'd probably need to splice some additional length to be able to utilize the full length of the runway and maximize the height of the launch. Would need to use a weak link on each end though. For this application, would a single axle wheel like a motorcycle wheel rim work better for the pulley, or would something like the Cotswold design work better? The rope wouldn't have the extra mass that the piano wire did that they used in Cotswold.

Forget the "reverse auto tow" and you don't need Dyneema to start (although it has definite advantages). My club, Southern Eagles (aka Sufferin' Eagles) started with 4000 feet of dacron rope and a truck wheel mounted on a steel bar the went into a hitch receiver on the back of a very old Ford LTD with an automatic trans. One end of the rope goes to an anchor (another vehicle or big metal stake in the ground). The rope goes over the pulley and to the glider. The car pulls from the middle of the rope, thus giving a 2:1 mechanical advantage. We would just put the old LTD in low gear and leave it there. Launching a 2 seater, the car would get up to maybe 28 miles per hour at most, then slow down from there. We were usually going about 18 mph when the glider was at the top of the launch. We got hundreds of launches off that dacron and that was on asphalt pavement. I think this is the best autolaunch system. The car is going slow so it's easily controllable and you can do this on less than smooth surfaces. Acceleration at the glider end of the rope is very fast, pretty much just like a winch. Simple, simple, simple. We sometimes got our single seat gliders to 2000 agl with a bit of headwind. Email me at if you want details.

December 31st 18, 09:40 PM

John, you should oversize the launch line, so as it wears from abrasion and uv it won't become the weak link in the system.

RR

John Foster

December 31st 18, 10:57 PM

On Monday, December 31, 2018 at 2:34:54 PM UTC-7, WB wrote:
> On Sunday, December 30, 2018 at 11:02:46 PM UTC-6, John Foster wrote:
> > I'm seriously looking at a reverse auto tow set-up to cut the costs down when starting up the club and am playing around with design concepts in my head. As far as rope goes, I am really impressed with Dyneema as a rope material, and from what I can gather, Samson Amsteel Blue Dyneema has a breaking strength of 1400 lbs for a rope only 7/64" diameter. That's about the thickness of a string! I can get a spool of it 3280 feet in length. Our runway is about 4,800, so we'd probably need to splice some additional length to be able to utilize the full length of the runway and maximize the height of the launch. Would need to use a weak link on each end though. For this application, would a single axle wheel like a motorcycle wheel rim work better for the pulley, or would something like the Cotswold design work better? The rope wouldn't have the extra mass that the piano wire did that they used in Cotswold.
>
> Forget the "reverse auto tow" and you don't need Dyneema to start (although it has definite advantages). My club, Southern Eagles (aka Sufferin' Eagles) started with 4000 feet of dacron rope and a truck wheel mounted on a steel bar the went into a hitch receiver on the back of a very old Ford LTD with an automatic trans. One end of the rope goes to an anchor (another vehicle or big metal stake in the ground). The rope goes over the pulley and to the glider. The car pulls from the middle of the rope, thus giving a 2:1 mechanical advantage. We would just put the old LTD in low gear and leave it there. Launching a 2 seater, the car would get up to maybe 28 miles per hour at most, then slow down from there. We were usually going about 18 mph when the glider was at the top of the launch. We got hundreds of launches off that dacron and that was on asphalt pavement. I think this is the best autolaunch system. The car is going slow so it's easily controllable and you can do this on less than smooth surfaces. Acceleration at the glider end of the rope is very fast, pretty much just like a winch. Simple, simple, simple. We sometimes got our single seat gliders to 2000 agl with a bit of headwind. Email me at if you want details.

A few questions come to mind: how long was your runway? We are limited to 4800ft, at an altitude of 3100 (higher density altitude in the summer). Our runway is about 3 miles upwind from the ridge/mountain range, with elevation gradually climbing about 500ft to the base of the mountains over that 3 miles. I'm anxious to maximize the altitude we would get from a launch, thus the idea of a reverse auto tow where you could use the full length of the runway for rope. Plus, with the reverse tow and pulley, you don't waste runway length with static unused rope to the starting location. Longer rope = higher launch, everything else being equal.

January 1st 19, 03:21 AM

On Monday, December 31, 2018 at 4:57:48 PM UTC-6, John Foster wrote:
> On Monday, December 31, 2018 at 2:34:54 PM UTC-7, WB wrote:
> > On Sunday, December 30, 2018 at 11:02:46 PM UTC-6, John Foster wrote:
> > > I'm seriously looking at a reverse auto tow set-up to cut the costs down when starting up the club and am playing around with design concepts in my head. As far as rope goes, I am really impressed with Dyneema as a rope material, and from what I can gather, Samson Amsteel Blue Dyneema has a breaking strength of 1400 lbs for a rope only 7/64" diameter. That's about the thickness of a string! I can get a spool of it 3280 feet in length. Our runway is about 4,800, so we'd probably need to splice some additional length to be able to utilize the full length of the runway and maximize the height of the launch. Would need to use a weak link on each end though. For this application, would a single axle wheel like a motorcycle wheel rim work better for the pulley, or would something like the Cotswold design work better? The rope wouldn't have the extra mass that the piano wire did that they used in Cotswold.
> >
> > Forget the "reverse auto tow" and you don't need Dyneema to start (although it has definite advantages).
> A few questions come to mind: how long was your runway? We are limited to 4800ft, at an altitude of 3100 (higher density altitude in the summer). Our runway is about 3 miles upwind from the ridge/mountain range, with elevation gradually climbing about 500ft to the base of the mountains over that 3 miles. I'm anxious to maximize the altitude we would get from a launch, thus the idea of a reverse auto tow where you could use the full length of the runway for rope. Plus, with the reverse tow and pulley, you don't waste runway length with static unused rope to the starting location. Longer rope = higher launch, everything else being equal.

We were at about 600 msl and used 4000ft of a 5000ft runway. We set up the launch point about 1000ft down the runway so gliders could land and roll up to be launched again. The reverse pulley will get you more run, but it takes a lot longer to accelerate to launch speed when using a 1:1 system straight line or reverse pulley launch. The 2:1 pulley launch gets you in the air very quickly.

The amount of usable rope, and thus climb, will be limited by the angle of the rope to the pulley. Once the rope gets to about a 70 degree angle relative to the ground, you are pretty much done climbing. After that, you are being pulled down more than forward, so you are just loading up the wings. With the moving pulley, the pulley is moving with the glider, so you can climb longer before you reach that 70 degree angle. Depending on wind, acceleration of the tow vehicle, and skill of the tow driver and glider pilot at ground launch (very important, that) the reverse pulley may very well get you some higher than the 2:1 pulley launch, but the difference won't be as much as you might expect. We stopped doing auto tows when our winch became operational. It was a beast of a winch with a 455 cubic inch GM engine driving the drums. A winch has the same line length advantages as the reverse pulley tow, yet we did not get significantly higher launches with the winch than with the 2:1 pulley launch.

There is nothing new under the sun when it comes to ground launching, auto tow, winch, whatever. It's pretty much all been tried. Derek Piggot wrote a book that is a great resource for learning about ground launch in it's many forms. Unfortunately, it appears to be out of print. I will hunt down my copy and send to you if you'd like. I am jammed up with some serious family issues at the moment, so it may be a few days before I can get to it. Feel free to ping me if you don't hear from me in a week or so.

Frank Whiteley

January 1st 19, 03:42 AM

On Monday, December 31, 2018 at 8:38:21 AM UTC-7, Dave Springford wrote:
> I bought 4000 ft of 5 mm diameter "dyneema" from the Shanghai Tough Rope and Webbing Company back in 2016 and we have been using it on our winch for 2 years.
>
> http://www.toughrope.com/productshow_261.html
>
> I tested it on the tensile machine at my college and it reached 3800 lbs before breaking. Lower than expected, but I had not mounted it very well in the machine and it was cut, more than it was broken, and 3800 is well above the 2200 lb weak link required for the K-21 so I didn't bother to mount it better and test it again.
>
> Price in 2016 was $0.50 per meter and $200 in shipping. Much cheaper than Amsteel for pretty much the same thing.

The web site seems to indicate the rope is a blend of sk65 and sk75. Amsteel is strictly sk75. There are two grades of Amsteel and Spectra, which are the basic ropes. The performance ropes are Amsteel Blue and Plasma12 respectively, which are rated to about 5400lbs breaking strength. AFAIK, these are not blended ropes. If the surface is benign, as in lush turf, the basic ropes will give plenty of launches. Our surface is what I would describe as harsh, though the harshest was on a runway that had an abrasive slurry coating. Regardless of the rope and surface, I think a cost amortization over 1,000 launches is reasonable and if banked, may well pay for the next rope after the original rope is paid for. So this could be $2-3/launch. A good surface could result in 2000 launches. A benign surface may well result in a rope life above 4000 launches.

Your rope may well reach very economic performance results, which would be good news. Total launches will be of more interest than service years. FWIW, I have a bird feeder on an untreated, flat weave, sample of Spectra that we attached to the end of our steel wire rope many years ago. No only do the squirrels not like climbing on it, they don't chew through it. It's been out there for at least 13-14 years, so very UV resistant.

I think we are very near 1000 launches on our original Amsteel Blue, which is run over high plains prairie, buffalo grass, clay loam soil with small rocks chips slight larger than sand and encounters the occasional rock, weed, or other obstacle. We have the occasional rope break or less common splice failure (old 4/3/2 tuck splices). We use a different method now, more like the recommended method. The cost was amortized over 1000 launches, so any launch above this is gravy.

Frank Whiteley

Frank Whiteley

January 1st 19, 03:58 AM

On Monday, December 31, 2018 at 8:21:47 PM UTC-7, WB wrote:
> On Monday, December 31, 2018 at 4:57:48 PM UTC-6, John Foster wrote:
> > On Monday, December 31, 2018 at 2:34:54 PM UTC-7, WB wrote:
> > > On Sunday, December 30, 2018 at 11:02:46 PM UTC-6, John Foster wrote:
> > > > I'm seriously looking at a reverse auto tow set-up to cut the costs down when starting up the club and am playing around with design concepts in my head. As far as rope goes, I am really impressed with Dyneema as a rope material, and from what I can gather, Samson Amsteel Blue Dyneema has a breaking strength of 1400 lbs for a rope only 7/64" diameter. That's about the thickness of a string! I can get a spool of it 3280 feet in length. Our runway is about 4,800, so we'd probably need to splice some additional length to be able to utilize the full length of the runway and maximize the height of the launch. Would need to use a weak link on each end though. For this application, would a single axle wheel like a motorcycle wheel rim work better for the pulley, or would something like the Cotswold design work better? The rope wouldn't have the extra mass that the piano wire did that they used in Cotswold.
> > >
> > > Forget the "reverse auto tow" and you don't need Dyneema to start (although it has definite advantages).
> > A few questions come to mind: how long was your runway? We are limited to 4800ft, at an altitude of 3100 (higher density altitude in the summer). Our runway is about 3 miles upwind from the ridge/mountain range, with elevation gradually climbing about 500ft to the base of the mountains over that 3 miles. I'm anxious to maximize the altitude we would get from a launch, thus the idea of a reverse auto tow where you could use the full length of the runway for rope. Plus, with the reverse tow and pulley, you don't waste runway length with static unused rope to the starting location. Longer rope = higher launch, everything else being equal.
>
> We were at about 600 msl and used 4000ft of a 5000ft runway. We set up the launch point about 1000ft down the runway so gliders could land and roll up to be launched again. The reverse pulley will get you more run, but it takes a lot longer to accelerate to launch speed when using a 1:1 system straight line or reverse pulley launch. The 2:1 pulley launch gets you in the air very quickly.
>
> The amount of usable rope, and thus climb, will be limited by the angle of the rope to the pulley. Once the rope gets to about a 70 degree angle relative to the ground, you are pretty much done climbing. After that, you are being pulled down more than forward, so you are just loading up the wings. With the moving pulley, the pulley is moving with the glider, so you can climb longer before you reach that 70 degree angle. Depending on wind, acceleration of the tow vehicle, and skill of the tow driver and glider pilot at ground launch (very important, that) the reverse pulley may very well get you some higher than the 2:1 pulley launch, but the difference won't be as much as you might expect. We stopped doing auto tows when our winch became operational. It was a beast of a winch with a 455 cubic inch GM engine driving the drums. A winch has the same line length advantages as the reverse pulley tow, yet we did not get significantly higher launches with the winch than with the 2:1 pulley launch.
>
> There is nothing new under the sun when it comes to ground launching, auto tow, winch, whatever. It's pretty much all been tried. Derek Piggot wrote a book that is a great resource for learning about ground launch in it's many forms. Unfortunately, it appears to be out of print. I will hunt down my copy and send to you if you'd like. I am jammed up with some serious family issues at the moment, so it may be a few days before I can get to it. Feel free to ping me if you don't hear from me in a week or so.

Wally

Wally is right, using a direct pulley offers some advantages. Turn around time is a bit longer, but if you're only launching a few gliders, this might be fine. I would suggest it would be a challenge to do 30 launches a day if you required that many launches. Reverse pulley is capable of doing a launch every 90 seconds to 3 minutes, so a large club can make good use of this method. Even a two drum winch, which can outperform any tow plane operation in terms of vertical feet/day, is of little concern if you run out of gliders at the launch point. So when creating a business model, what are your current requirements and what are your future requirements. Can you current require help you reach your future requirements?

3/16 UHMWPE rope provides good margins for wear and longevity. Yes, higher up front cost, but this can and should be amortized in the launch costs. Launch vehicles cost money also. I've done reverse pulley launches years ago at the Essex GC in the UK. Solid wire, K-13, with, IIRC, an 1100cc Vauxhall manual transmission. Each shift, the drogue chute inflated over the canopy of the K-13. Dodgy, yes. Launch height, minimum safe height. Nevertheless, there's wear and tear on the launch vehicle. You might contact Stephen Layton at Hobbs Soaring Society about this. They have a simple auto launch system, lots of experience, but they also have lots of room to do what they do. https://sites.google.com/site/hobbssoaringsociety/contact

Frank Whiteley

Gary Wayland

January 1st 19, 08:49 AM

Martin Gregorie[_6_]

January 1st 19, 03:13 PM

On Mon, 31 Dec 2018 19:21:45 -0800, WB wrote:

> There is nothing new under the sun when it comes to ground launching,
> auto tow, winch, whatever. It's pretty much all been tried. Derek Piggot
> wrote a book that is a great resource for learning about ground launch
> in it's many forms. Unfortunately, it appears to be out of print.
>
ITYM "Gliding - A handbook on Soaring Flight"

Edition 7, which I have (blue cover showing a DG-800B with its motor
out), has two chapters on ground launching and is currently on offer from
Amazon for $3.60. His books may be out of print, but you can easily find
copies. Amazon even has a Derek Piggott author page.

--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

John Foster

January 2nd 19, 07:59 AM

Frank Whiteley

January 2nd 19, 09:11 AM

On Tuesday, January 1, 2019 at 8:13:46 AM UTC-7, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Mon, 31 Dec 2018 19:21:45 -0800, WB wrote:
>
> > There is nothing new under the sun when it comes to ground launching,
> > auto tow, winch, whatever. It's pretty much all been tried. Derek Piggot
> > wrote a book that is a great resource for learning about ground launch
> > in it's many forms. Unfortunately, it appears to be out of print.
> >
> ITYM "Gliding - A handbook on Soaring Flight"
>
> Edition 7, which I have (blue cover showing a DG-800B with its motor
> out), has two chapters on ground launching and is currently on offer from
> Amazon for $3.60. His books may be out of print, but you can easily find
> copies. Amazon even has a Derek Piggott author page.
>
>
> --
> Martin | martin at
> Gregorie | gregorie dot org

Derek's insights on ground launching are very good. There are a number of variables that need some additional consideration. Here in Colorado summers, we can have density altitudes approaching 10,000ft at 5500MSL field elevation, which affect performance of both winches and gliders and auto tows, if used. The OP's location is at 3000MSL with slightly lower expected seasonal temperatures.

I'm not aware of any operations that have used direct or reverse-pulleys with UHMWPE ropes. 30 plus years ago, the old Enstone GC attempted to use a pulley with Parafil and the results were not successful. Could have been a design issue. Parafil worked a treat for auto tow and could be retrieved quickly for the next launch. I'm not certain UHMWPE ropes would work in those cases, however, Amsteel II is a sheathed rope, so might work in a similar role.

Direct pulley and auto tow is often done without a drogue chute so the rope will drop without much drift. A chute could result in considerable drift without any control. A drogue chute on a reverse pulley allows the end of the rope to be landed next to the pulley and it will be set up for the next launch. A rope break is the only real problem. The OP's airport has runway lights, which in my opinion makes direct pulley and auto tow not viable. There is a second airport option, very close to the mountains, which might allow easy access to ridge soaring. If the wind is enough for ridge flight, it would also maybe help with the launch heights to reach for the lift and/or return to the airport. A reverse pulley would allow for operations from both sites, though there is the problem of different run lengths. John, what was that second airport?

Frank Whiteley

Frank Whiteley

January 2nd 19, 09:39 AM

On Wednesday, January 2, 2019 at 12:59:47 AM UTC-7, John Foster wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 1, 2019 at 8:13:46 AM UTC-7, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> > On Mon, 31 Dec 2018 19:21:45 -0800, WB wrote:
> >
> > > There is nothing new under the sun when it comes to ground launching,
> > > auto tow, winch, whatever. It's pretty much all been tried. Derek Piggot
> > > wrote a book that is a great resource for learning about ground launch
> > > in it's many forms. Unfortunately, it appears to be out of print.
> > >
> > ITYM "Gliding - A handbook on Soaring Flight"
> >
> > Edition 7, which I have (blue cover showing a DG-800B with its motor
> > out), has two chapters on ground launching and is currently on offer from
> > Amazon for $3.60. His books may be out of print, but you can easily find
> > copies. Amazon even has a Derek Piggott author page.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Martin | martin at
> > Gregorie | gregorie dot org
>
> That books looks promising. Thanks for the link.
>
> With regard to the pulley: what diameter would it need to be? I've seen somewhere that a higher grade of UHMWPE--New England STS-12 (formerly Endura 12), recommends a sheave:rope diameter ratio of 8:1. That would mean for a 1/8" rope, one could get away with a sheave of only 1" in a pulley. Somehow that just doesn't seem like a good idea in this application though, but I don't know. So I'm asking.
>
> If this were the case then, one could simply order these items off Amazon and be done with it:
> https://www.amazon.com/Smittybilt-2744-Universal-Snatch-Block/dp/B003CG9PIC/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1546415068&sr=8-3&keywords=snatch+block
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01I25Z5F4/?coliid=IC5446KT2CY9R&colid=1CG4T3YDCVWF8&psc=0&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it

8 inches is okay, but there are other reverse pulley considerations. If you want the wheel to track the glider climb and drift, as in the old Cotswold system, a larger diameter is probably better. It was an effective 50" radius using using small rollers to reduce any stored energy in the system, which was an issue with the Essex GC system. With UHMWPE rope, you want to eliminate both stored energy and the ability for slack rope to tuck into any gaps or result in loops that might impact on the ground or equipment. Larger rope types might help with some of this, but there are always compromises of performance and price. UV resistence, abrasive resistence, fatigue (as a result of loading cycles), and ease of handling (including splicing) are all considerations.

This might be a suitable substitute for UHMWPE ropes for reverse pulley, http://www.novabraid.com/rope/oletec-12/ though they make no claims on abrasion resistance. 3/8" might be so heavy as to cause abrasive issues. This was true on the Cotswold system using solid wire. 10 gauge was heavy enough to cause excessive wear on the "memory loops" on the wire, so 13 gauge was found to give the best performance. Use of solid wire is not recommended at public use airports wherever you are because a large clear zone is needed in case of wire breaks. Many of these new ropes have negligible stretch, thus no recoil issues. Solid wire and steel wire ropes have significant recoil hazards.

Frank Whiteley

John Foster

January 2nd 19, 07:01 PM

On Wednesday, January 2, 2019 at 2:11:23 AM UTC-7, Frank Whiteley wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 1, 2019 at 8:13:46 AM UTC-7, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> > On Mon, 31 Dec 2018 19:21:45 -0800, WB wrote:
> >
> > > There is nothing new under the sun when it comes to ground launching,
> > > auto tow, winch, whatever. It's pretty much all been tried. Derek Piggot
> > > wrote a book that is a great resource for learning about ground launch
> > > in it's many forms. Unfortunately, it appears to be out of print.
> > >
> > ITYM "Gliding - A handbook on Soaring Flight"
> >
> > Edition 7, which I have (blue cover showing a DG-800B with its motor
> > out), has two chapters on ground launching and is currently on offer from
> > Amazon for $3.60. His books may be out of print, but you can easily find
> > copies. Amazon even has a Derek Piggott author page.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Martin | martin at
> > Gregorie | gregorie dot org
>
> Derek's insights on ground launching are very good. There are a number of variables that need some additional consideration. Here in Colorado summers, we can have density altitudes approaching 10,000ft at 5500MSL field elevation, which affect performance of both winches and gliders and auto tows, if used. The OP's location is at 3000MSL with slightly lower expected seasonal temperatures.
>
> I'm not aware of any operations that have used direct or reverse-pulleys with UHMWPE ropes. 30 plus years ago, the old Enstone GC attempted to use a pulley with Parafil and the results were not successful. Could have been a design issue. Parafil worked a treat for auto tow and could be retrieved quickly for the next launch. I'm not certain UHMWPE ropes would work in those cases, however, Amsteel II is a sheathed rope, so might work in a similar role.
>
> Direct pulley and auto tow is often done without a drogue chute so the rope will drop without much drift. A chute could result in considerable drift without any control. A drogue chute on a reverse pulley allows the end of the rope to be landed next to the pulley and it will be set up for the next launch. A rope break is the only real problem. The OP's airport has runway lights, which in my opinion makes direct pulley and auto tow not viable. There is a second airport option, very close to the mountains, which might allow easy access to ridge soaring. If the wind is enough for ridge flight, it would also maybe help with the launch heights to reach for the lift and/or return to the airport. A reverse pulley would allow for operations from both sites, though there is the problem of different run lengths. John, what was that second airport?
>
> Frank Whiteley

The second airport is St Ignatius (52S). Elevation is about the same at about 3K ft. Runway is only 2600 ft though. It also has runway lights.

Again, the purpose of this thread is to look at (cheap) options to get a club STARTED in a rural area in a low population density state. There is not a lot of money around here. Obviously there are better ways to launch gliders, but it costs more, and I'm looking for ways to make this affordable, at least until we can achieve critical mass to make this club self-sustaining. At that point we could start looking at options to improve launch equipment. At this point we don't even have sufficient interest to generate enough capital to buy a two-seater glider, even one that is only $6000. There is interest, but not enough people to put money on the table yet. That's my challenge.

Chris Rowland[_2_]

January 2nd 19, 07:01 PM

I learnt to glide and instruct in the late 1960s and 70s at a club that
used autotow and would suggest that if you are startng up and your site can
manage the rope issues with ground based cable launching then start with
straight autotow. 1500' to 1800' of cable and a pick up truck. It's the
simplest system. The turn round time will be slower but to start with that
won't be an issue.

We tried reverse pulley and couldn't make it work reliably because it was
very easy to launch too far and what happened then was that the cable
broke, thus making the whole thing a mess.

If you do then you will find that your pulley assembly needs to move about
two axes, both horizontally and vertically. The vertical axis handles the
situation where the glider is to one side of the runway.

But if the airfield is being used by other air traffic I'm not sure if any
wire launch system will work because of the risk to things such as lights
and the risks of mixing aircraft and cables.

Chris

At 09:39 02 January 2019, Frank Whiteley wrote:
>On Wednesday, January 2, 2019 at 12:59:47 AM UTC-7, John Foster wrote:
>> On Tuesday, January 1, 2019 at 8:13:46 AM UTC-7, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>> > On Mon, 31 Dec 2018 19:21:45 -0800, WB wrote:
>> >=20
>> > > There is nothing new under the sun when it comes to ground
launching,
>> > > auto tow, winch, whatever. It's pretty much all been tried. Derek
>Pig=
>got
>> > > wrote a book that is a great resource for learning about ground
>launc=
>h
>> > > in it's many forms. Unfortunately, it appears to be out of print.
>> > >
>> > ITYM "Gliding - A handbook on Soaring Flight"
>> >=20
>> > Edition 7, which I have (blue cover showing a DG-800B with its
motor=20
>> > out), has two chapters on ground launching and is currently on offer
>fr=
>om=20
>> > Amazon for $3.60. His books may be out of print, but you can easily
>fin=
>d=20
>> > copies. Amazon even has a Derek Piggott author page.=20
>> >=20
>> >=20
>> > --=20
>> > Martin | martin at
>> > Gregorie | gregorie dot org
>>=20
>> That books looks promising. Thanks for the link.
>>=20
>> With regard to the pulley: what diameter would it need to be? I've
seen
>=
>somewhere that a higher grade of UHMWPE--New England STS-12 (formerly
>Endur=
>a 12), recommends a sheave:rope diameter ratio of 8:1. That would mean
>for=
> a 1/8" rope, one could get away with a sheave of only 1" in a pulley.
>Som=
>ehow that just doesn't seem like a good idea in this application though,
>bu=
>t I don't know. So I'm asking.
>>=20
>> If this were the case then, one could simply order these items off
>Amazon=
> and be done with it:
>>
>https://www.amazon.com/Smittybilt-2744-Universal-Snatch-Block/dp/B003CG9P=
>IC/ref=3Dsr_1_3?ie=3DUTF8&qid=3D1546415068&sr=3D8-3&keywords=3Dsnatch+block
>>
>https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01I25Z5F4/?coliid=3DIC5446KT2CY9R&colid=3D1CG4=
>T3YDCVWF8&psc=3D0&ref_=3Dlv_ov_lig_dp_it
>
>8 inches is okay, but there are other reverse pulley considerations. If
>yo=
>u want the wheel to track the glider climb and drift, as in the old
>Cotswol=
>d system, a larger diameter is probably better. It was an effective 50"
>ra=
>dius using using small rollers to reduce any stored energy in the system,
>w=
>hich was an issue with the Essex GC system. With UHMWPE rope, you want
to
>=
>eliminate both stored energy and the ability for slack rope to tuck into
>an=
>y gaps or result in loops that might impact on the ground or equipment.
>La=
>rger rope types might help with some of this, but there are always
>compromi=
>ses of performance and price. UV resistence, abrasive resistence,
fatigue
>=
>(as a result of loading cycles), and ease of handling (including
splicing)
>=
>are all considerations.
>
>This might be a suitable substitute for UHMWPE ropes for reverse pulley,
>ht=
>tp://www.novabraid.com/rope/oletec-12/ though they make no claims on
>abrasi=
>on resistance. 3/8" might be so heavy as to cause abrasive issues. This
>w=
>as true on the Cotswold system using solid wire. 10 gauge was heavy
>enough=
> to cause excessive wear on the "memory loops" on the wire, so 13 gauge
>was=
> found to give the best performance. Use of solid wire is not
recommended
>=
>at public use airports wherever you are because a large clear zone is
>neede=
>d in case of wire breaks. Many of these new ropes have negligible
>stretch,=
> thus no recoil issues. Solid wire and steel wire ropes have significant
>r=
>ecoil hazards.
>
>Frank Whiteley
>

John Young[_3_]

January 2nd 19, 09:26 PM

Peter Whitehead gave some information on an earlier post showing a
reverse pulley launch but had no video of the business end - I can
add this here and hope it is of some help.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0rv1zOmyWg&t=51s

Peter is the best contact for technical information regarding
equipment used - the bearings on the first trials were not up to the
speed and were replaced due to overheating.
Overall the results were superb for an expatiation from another new
site in the Lake district.
JY

At 19:01 02 January 2019, Chris Rowland wrote:
>I learnt to glide and instruct in the late 1960s and 70s at a club tha
>used autotow and would suggest that if you are startng up and
your site ca
>manage the rope issues with ground based cable launching then
start wit
>straight autotow. 1500' to 1800' of cable and a pick up truck. It's
th
>simplest system. The turn round time will be slower but to start
with tha
>won't be an issue.
>
>We tried reverse pulley and couldn't make it work reliably because
it wa
>very easy to launch too far and what happened then was that the
cabl
>broke, thus making the whole thing a mess.
>
>If you do then you will find that your pulley assembly needs to
move abou
>two axes, both horizontally and vertically. The vertical axis handles
th
>situation where the glider is to one side of the runway.
>
>But if the airfield is being used by other air traffic I'm not sure if an
>wire launch system will work because of the risk to things such as
light
>and the risks of mixing aircraft and cables.
>
>Chris
>
>At 09:39 02 January 2019, Frank Whiteley wrote:
>>On Wednesday, January 2, 2019 at 12:59:47 AM UTC-7, John
Foster wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, January 1, 2019 at 8:13:46 AM UTC-7, Martin
Gregorie wrote:
>>> > On Mon, 31 Dec 2018 19:21:45 -0800, WB wrote:
>>> >=20
>>> > > There is nothing new under the sun when it comes to
groun
>launching,
>>> > > auto tow, winch, whatever. It's pretty much all been tried.
Derek
>>Pig=
>>got
>>> > > wrote a book that is a great resource for learning about
ground
>>launc=
>>h
>>> > > in it's many forms. Unfortunately, it appears to be out of
print.
>>> > >
>>> > ITYM "Gliding - A handbook on Soaring Flight"
>>> >=20
>>> > Edition 7, which I have (blue cover showing a DG-800B with
it
>motor=20
>>> > out), has two chapters on ground launching and is currently
on offer
>>fr=
>>om=20
>>> > Amazon for $3.60. His books may be out of print, but you
can easily
>>fin=
>>d=20
>>> > copies. Amazon even has a Derek Piggott author page.=20
>>> >=20
>>> >=20
>>> > --=20
>>> > Martin | martin at
>>> > Gregorie | gregorie dot org
>>>=20
>>> That books looks promising. Thanks for the link.
>>>=20
>>> With regard to the pulley: what diameter would it need to be?
I'v
>seen
>>=
>>somewhere that a higher grade of UHMWPE--New England STS-
12 (formerly
>>Endur=
>>a 12), recommends a sheave:rope diameter ratio of 8:1. That
would mean
>>for=
>> a 1/8" rope, one could get away with a sheave of only 1" in a
pulley.
>>Som=
>>ehow that just doesn't seem like a good idea in this application
though,
>>bu=
>>t I don't know. So I'm asking.
>>>=20
>>> If this were the case then, one could simply order these items
off
>>Amazon=
>> and be done with it:
>>>
>>https://www.amazon.com/Smittybilt-2744-Universal-Snatch-
Block/dp/B003CG9P=
>>IC/ref=3Dsr_1_3?ie=3DUTF8&qid=3D1546415068&sr=3D8-
3&keywords=3Dsnatch+block
>>>
>>https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01I25Z5F4/?
coliid=3DIC5446KT2CY9R&colid=3D1CG4=
>>T3YDCVWF8&psc=3D0&ref_=3Dlv_ov_lig_dp_it
>>
>>8 inches is okay, but there are other reverse pulley
considerations. If
>>yo=
>>u want the wheel to track the glider climb and drift, as in the old
>>Cotswol=
>>d system, a larger diameter is probably better. It was an
effective 50"
>>ra=
>>dius using using small rollers to reduce any stored energy in the
system,
>>w=
>>hich was an issue with the Essex GC system. With UHMWPE
rope, you wan
>to
>>=
>>eliminate both stored energy and the ability for slack rope to tuck
into
>>an=
>>y gaps or result in loops that might impact on the ground or
equipment.
>>La=
>>rger rope types might help with some of this, but there are
always
>>compromi=
>>ses of performance and price. UV resistence, abrasive resistence
>fatigue
>>=
>>(as a result of loading cycles), and ease of handling (includin
>splicing)
>>=
>>are all considerations.
>>
>>This might be a suitable substitute for UHMWPE ropes for reverse
pulley,
>>ht=
>>tp://www.novabraid.com/rope/oletec-12/ though they make no
claims on
>>abrasi=
>>on resistance. 3/8" might be so heavy as to cause abrasive
issues. This
>>w=
>>as true on the Cotswold system using solid wire. 10 gauge was
heavy
>>enough=
>> to cause excessive wear on the "memory loops" on the wire, so
13 gauge
>>was=
>> found to give the best performance. Use of solid wire is no
>recommended
>>=
>>at public use airports wherever you are because a large clear
zone is
>>neede=
>>d in case of wire breaks. Many of these new ropes have
negligible
>>stretch,=
>> thus no recoil issues. Solid wire and steel wire ropes have
significant
>>r=
>>ecoil hazards.
>>
>>Frank Whiteley
>>
>
>

Frank Whiteley

January 2nd 19, 11:18 PM

On Wednesday, January 2, 2019 at 2:39:13 AM UTC-7, Frank Whiteley wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 2, 2019 at 12:59:47 AM UTC-7, John Foster wrote:
> > On Tuesday, January 1, 2019 at 8:13:46 AM UTC-7, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> > > On Mon, 31 Dec 2018 19:21:45 -0800, WB wrote:
> > >
> > > > There is nothing new under the sun when it comes to ground launching,
> > > > auto tow, winch, whatever. It's pretty much all been tried. Derek Piggot
> > > > wrote a book that is a great resource for learning about ground launch
> > > > in it's many forms. Unfortunately, it appears to be out of print.
> > > >
> > > ITYM "Gliding - A handbook on Soaring Flight"
> > >
> > > Edition 7, which I have (blue cover showing a DG-800B with its motor
> > > out), has two chapters on ground launching and is currently on offer from
> > > Amazon for $3.60. His books may be out of print, but you can easily find
> > > copies. Amazon even has a Derek Piggott author page.
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Martin | martin at
> > > Gregorie | gregorie dot org
> >
> > That books looks promising. Thanks for the link.
> >
> > With regard to the pulley: what diameter would it need to be? I've seen somewhere that a higher grade of UHMWPE--New England STS-12 (formerly Endura 12), recommends a sheave:rope diameter ratio of 8:1. That would mean for a 1/8" rope, one could get away with a sheave of only 1" in a pulley. Somehow that just doesn't seem like a good idea in this application though, but I don't know. So I'm asking.
> >
> > If this were the case then, one could simply order these items off Amazon and be done with it:
> > https://www.amazon.com/Smittybilt-2744-Universal-Snatch-Block/dp/B003CG9PIC/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1546415068&sr=8-3&keywords=snatch+block
> > https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01I25Z5F4/?coliid=IC5446KT2CY9R&colid=1CG4T3YDCVWF8&psc=0&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it
>
> 8 inches is okay, but there are other reverse pulley considerations. If you want the wheel to track the glider climb and drift, as in the old Cotswold system, a larger diameter is probably better. It was an effective 50" radius using using small rollers to reduce any stored energy in the system, which was an issue with the Essex GC system. With UHMWPE rope, you want to eliminate both stored energy and the ability for slack rope to tuck into any gaps or result in loops that might impact on the ground or equipment. Larger rope types might help with some of this, but there are always compromises of performance and price. UV resistence, abrasive resistence, fatigue (as a result of loading cycles), and ease of handling (including splicing) are all considerations.
>
> This might be a suitable substitute for UHMWPE ropes for reverse pulley, http://www.novabraid.com/rope/oletec-12/ though they make no claims on abrasion resistance. 3/8" might be so heavy as to cause abrasive issues. This was true on the Cotswold system using solid wire. 10 gauge was heavy enough to cause excessive wear on the "memory loops" on the wire, so 13 gauge was found to give the best performance. Use of solid wire is not recommended at public use airports wherever you are because a large clear zone is needed in case of wire breaks. Many of these new ropes have negligible stretch, thus no recoil issues. Solid wire and steel wire ropes have significant recoil hazards.
>
> Frank Whiteley

WRT Cotswold 50" diameter.

John Foster

January 3rd 19, 04:49 AM

On Wednesday, January 2, 2019 at 4:18:44 PM UTC-7, Frank Whiteley wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 2, 2019 at 2:39:13 AM UTC-7, Frank Whiteley wrote:
> > On Wednesday, January 2, 2019 at 12:59:47 AM UTC-7, John Foster wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, January 1, 2019 at 8:13:46 AM UTC-7, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> > > > On Mon, 31 Dec 2018 19:21:45 -0800, WB wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > There is nothing new under the sun when it comes to ground launching,
> > > > > auto tow, winch, whatever. It's pretty much all been tried. Derek Piggot
> > > > > wrote a book that is a great resource for learning about ground launch
> > > > > in it's many forms. Unfortunately, it appears to be out of print.
> > > > >
> > > > ITYM "Gliding - A handbook on Soaring Flight"
> > > >
> > > > Edition 7, which I have (blue cover showing a DG-800B with its motor
> > > > out), has two chapters on ground launching and is currently on offer from
> > > > Amazon for $3.60. His books may be out of print, but you can easily find
> > > > copies. Amazon even has a Derek Piggott author page.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Martin | martin at
> > > > Gregorie | gregorie dot org
> > >
> > > That books looks promising. Thanks for the link.
> > >
> > > With regard to the pulley: what diameter would it need to be? I've seen somewhere that a higher grade of UHMWPE--New England STS-12 (formerly Endura 12), recommends a sheave:rope diameter ratio of 8:1. That would mean for a 1/8" rope, one could get away with a sheave of only 1" in a pulley. Somehow that just doesn't seem like a good idea in this application though, but I don't know. So I'm asking.
> > >
> > > If this were the case then, one could simply order these items off Amazon and be done with it:
> > > https://www.amazon.com/Smittybilt-2744-Universal-Snatch-Block/dp/B003CG9PIC/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1546415068&sr=8-3&keywords=snatch+block
> > > https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01I25Z5F4/?coliid=IC5446KT2CY9R&colid=1CG4T3YDCVWF8&psc=0&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it
> >
> > 8 inches is okay, but there are other reverse pulley considerations. If you want the wheel to track the glider climb and drift, as in the old Cotswold system, a larger diameter is probably better. It was an effective 50" radius using using small rollers to reduce any stored energy in the system, which was an issue with the Essex GC system. With UHMWPE rope, you want to eliminate both stored energy and the ability for slack rope to tuck into any gaps or result in loops that might impact on the ground or equipment. Larger rope types might help with some of this, but there are always compromises of performance and price. UV resistence, abrasive resistence, fatigue (as a result of loading cycles), and ease of handling (including splicing) are all considerations.
> >
> > This might be a suitable substitute for UHMWPE ropes for reverse pulley, http://www.novabraid.com/rope/oletec-12/ though they make no claims on abrasion resistance. 3/8" might be so heavy as to cause abrasive issues. This was true on the Cotswold system using solid wire. 10 gauge was heavy enough to cause excessive wear on the "memory loops" on the wire, so 13 gauge was found to give the best performance. Use of solid wire is not recommended at public use airports wherever you are because a large clear zone is needed in case of wire breaks. Many of these new ropes have negligible stretch, thus no recoil issues. Solid wire and steel wire ropes have significant recoil hazards.
> >
> > Frank Whiteley
>
> WRT Cotswold 50" diameter.

50" diameter was for a solid steel wire. The 1:8 ratio would put the sheave diameter for a 1/8" rope at 1".

Frank Whiteley

January 3rd 19, 05:28 AM

On Wednesday, January 2, 2019 at 9:49:18 PM UTC-7, John Foster wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 2, 2019 at 4:18:44 PM UTC-7, Frank Whiteley wrote:
> > On Wednesday, January 2, 2019 at 2:39:13 AM UTC-7, Frank Whiteley wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, January 2, 2019 at 12:59:47 AM UTC-7, John Foster wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, January 1, 2019 at 8:13:46 AM UTC-7, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> > > > > On Mon, 31 Dec 2018 19:21:45 -0800, WB wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > There is nothing new under the sun when it comes to ground launching,
> > > > > > auto tow, winch, whatever. It's pretty much all been tried. Derek Piggot
> > > > > > wrote a book that is a great resource for learning about ground launch
> > > > > > in it's many forms. Unfortunately, it appears to be out of print.

January 3rd 19, 12:59 PM

On Wednesday, January 2, 2019 at 1:01:53 PM UTC-6, John Foster wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 2, 2019 at 2:11:23 AM UTC-7, Frank Whiteley wrote:
> > On Tuesday, January 1, 2019 at 8:13:46 AM UTC-7, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> > > On Mon, 31 Dec 2018 19:21:45 -0800, WB wrote:
> > >
> > > > There is nothing new under the sun when it comes to ground launching,
> > > > auto tow, winch, whatever. It's pretty much all been tried. Derek Piggot
> > > > wrote a book that is a great resource for learning about ground launch
> > > > in it's many forms. Unfortunately, it appears to be out of print.
> > > >
> > > ITYM "Gliding - A handbook on Soaring Flight"
> > >
> > > Edition 7, which I have (blue cover showing a DG-800B with its motor
> > > out), has two chapters on ground launching and is currently on offer from
> > > Amazon for $3.60. His books may be out of print, but you can easily find
> > > copies. Amazon even has a Derek Piggott author page.
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Martin | martin at
> > > Gregorie | gregorie dot org
> >
> > Derek's insights on ground launching are very good. There are a number of variables that need some additional consideration. Here in Colorado summers, we can have density altitudes approaching 10,000ft at 5500MSL field elevation, which affect performance of both winches and gliders and auto tows, if used. The OP's location is at 3000MSL with slightly lower expected seasonal temperatures.
> >
> > I'm not aware of any operations that have used direct or reverse-pulleys with UHMWPE ropes. 30 plus years ago, the old Enstone GC attempted to use a pulley with Parafil and the results were not successful. Could have been a design issue. Parafil worked a treat for auto tow and could be retrieved quickly for the next launch. I'm not certain UHMWPE ropes would work in those cases, however, Amsteel II is a sheathed rope, so might work in a similar role.
> >
> > Direct pulley and auto tow is often done without a drogue chute so the rope will drop without much drift. A chute could result in considerable drift without any control. A drogue chute on a reverse pulley allows the end of the rope to be landed next to the pulley and it will be set up for the next launch. A rope break is the only real problem. The OP's airport has runway lights, which in my opinion makes direct pulley and auto tow not viable. There is a second airport option, very close to the mountains, which might allow easy access to ridge soaring. If the wind is enough for ridge flight, it would also maybe help with the launch heights to reach for the lift and/or return to the airport. A reverse pulley would allow for operations from both sites, though there is the problem of different run lengths. John, what was that second airport?
> >
> > Frank Whiteley
>
> The second airport is St Ignatius (52S). Elevation is about the same at about 3K ft. Runway is only 2600 ft though. It also has runway lights.
>
> Again, the purpose of this thread is to look at (cheap) options to get a club STARTED in a rural area in a low population density state. There is not a lot of money around here. Obviously there are better ways to launch gliders, but it costs more, and I'm looking for ways to make this affordable, at least until we can achieve critical mass to make this club self-sustaining. At that point we could start looking at options to improve launch equipment. At this point we don't even have sufficient interest to generate enough capital to buy a two-seater glider, even one that is only $6000. There is interest, but not enough people to put money on the table yet. That's my challenge.

Here's how you can afford to get a club glider: Finance it with a loan with the longest term you can and that will allow you the option of paying interest only. We did that to buy our first 2 seater. Some months, we could only afford the $50 interest. However, it got us going and we ended up actually paying off the loan early. Some people will cringe at this strategy and tell you it is financial idiocy. However, with a glider club, where we typically have a lot of membership turnover,no single individual ends up paying much more with this type of financing than with just buying a glider outright. If you have enough interest to keep the glider busy, it will soon pay for itself.

Bruce Hoult

January 4th 19, 03:34 AM

On Thursday, January 3, 2019 at 4:59:36 AM UTC-8, WB wrote:
> Here's how you can afford to get a club glider: Finance it with a loan with the longest term you can and that will allow you the option of paying interest only. We did that to buy our first 2 seater. Some months, we could only afford the $50 interest. However, it got us going and we ended up actually paying off the loan early. Some people will cringe at this strategy and tell you it is financial idiocy. However, with a glider club, where we typically have a lot of membership turnover,no single individual ends up paying much more with this type of financing than with just buying a glider outright. If you have enough interest to keep the glider busy, it will soon pay for itself.

Not only that, but a glider isn't a car that will depreciate to nothing in ten years. It's not even a power plane with big engine overhaul bills every 2000 hours.

Gliders have a 50+ year lifespan (especially plastic ones) and require next to no maintenance (especially plastic ones), so it's perfectly sensible to pay them off over 20 or 25 years. If the club folds before that, you'll be able to sell the glider for enough to be able to pay off the loan.

Frank Whiteley

January 4th 19, 05:51 AM

On Thursday, January 3, 2019 at 8:35:00 PM UTC-7, Bruce Hoult wrote:
> On Thursday, January 3, 2019 at 4:59:36 AM UTC-8, WB wrote:
> > Here's how you can afford to get a club glider: Finance it with a loan with the longest term you can and that will allow you the option of paying interest only. We did that to buy our first 2 seater. Some months, we could only afford the $50 interest. However, it got us going and we ended up actually paying off the loan early. Some people will cringe at this strategy and tell you it is financial idiocy. However, with a glider club, where we typically have a lot of membership turnover,no single individual ends up paying much more with this type of financing than with just buying a glider outright. If you have enough interest to keep the glider busy, it will soon pay for itself.
>
> Not only that, but a glider isn't a car that will depreciate to nothing in ten years. It's not even a power plane with big engine overhaul bills every 2000 hours.
>
> Gliders have a 50+ year lifespan (especially plastic ones) and require next to no maintenance (especially plastic ones), so it's perfectly sensible to pay them off over 20 or 25 years. If the club folds before that, you'll be able to sell the glider for enough to be able to pay off the loan.

I think this is far too long.

Many clubs have multiple gliders. Some include use in the dues (aka no use charge), or have a fixed per flight fee. Both of those approaches seem to me to be a bit short sighted. I suggest that each glider in the fleet have an amortization schedule and a sinking fund (for replacement). So, say a G-103 should be fully amortized in 1000 hours of club use (or pick some other number, but be conservative). That would set a reasonable hourly cost to the member and be goal oriented and met in a reasonable time. Now, perhaps the club has 3-4 club gliders. If the club is growing, the combined sinking funds could expand the fleet within a reasonable amount of time. If the club is not growing, then upgrading the fleet would be perhaps the preferred goal. IMVHO, remaining stagnant is not a desirable path.

So, once the operating (replacement) costs have been established, then deal with the fixed costs (e.g. those costs that must be paid in order to fly; annuals, AD compliance, insurance, minor repairs, and storage). Those fixed costs establish the dues rate. There's a little wiggle room (ADs, TNs, XPNDRs, ADS-B, etc), but the sinking funds should establish the margin for growth. The dues allow the club to operate.

Tow planes are a different topic.

FWIW,

Frank Whiteley

Bruce Hoult

January 4th 19, 07:15 AM

On Thursday, January 3, 2019 at 9:51:16 PM UTC-8, Frank Whiteley wrote:
> On Thursday, January 3, 2019 at 8:35:00 PM UTC-7, Bruce Hoult wrote:
> > On Thursday, January 3, 2019 at 4:59:36 AM UTC-8, WB wrote:
> > > Here's how you can afford to get a club glider: Finance it with a loan with the longest term you can and that will allow you the option of paying interest only. We did that to buy our first 2 seater. Some months, we could only afford the $50 interest. However, it got us going and we ended up actually paying off the loan early. Some people will cringe at this strategy and tell you it is financial idiocy. However, with a glider club, where we typically have a lot of membership turnover,no single individual ends up paying much more with this type of financing than with just buying a glider outright. If you have enough interest to keep the glider busy, it will soon pay for itself.
> >
> > Not only that, but a glider isn't a car that will depreciate to nothing in ten years. It's not even a power plane with big engine overhaul bills every 2000 hours.
> >
> > Gliders have a 50+ year lifespan (especially plastic ones) and require next to no maintenance (especially plastic ones), so it's perfectly sensible to pay them off over 20 or 25 years. If the club folds before that, you'll be able to sell the glider for enough to be able to pay off the loan.
>
> I think this is far too long.
>
> Many clubs have multiple gliders. Some include use in the dues (aka no use charge), or have a fixed per flight fee. Both of those approaches seem to me to be a bit short sighted. I suggest that each glider in the fleet have an amortization schedule and a sinking fund (for replacement). So, say a G-103 should be fully amortized in 1000 hours of club use (or pick some other number, but be conservative). That would set a reasonable hourly cost to the member

They're not making G-103s any more, so you'd be talking about a used one, with less life remaining. Ok, so how about an ASK-21? I was unable to find a current price (neither the US distributor nor the Germany manufacturer sees fit to publish a price list that I could find) so I'm going to guess $90000 based on what they cost ten years ago. (I'd think DG1001 Club would be an even better choice, as it's more flexible, but also costs slightly more)

Amortised in 1000 hours? So you want to load a club glider with an *extra* (over an above the fixed and variables costs) $90/hour, for the first 1000 hours?

That sounds like a good way to get a club where no one will fly.

The glider is good for 12000 to 18000 hours. Why not amortise it over the first 6000 hours? That makes the loading $15/hour, which is much more reasonable.

The only training / rides / cross country glider in a small club is going to easily do 200 to 300 hours a year if the price is not offputting. So your 6000 hours to pay back the capital is going to take 20 to 30 years. If it takes you longer .. well, the glider is just going to be a low hours and more valuable glider for longer.

If you can't manage 200 to 300 hours a year (or 100, minimum) then it's going to be the fixed costs such as interest and insurance and hangarage and 90 day maintenance inspections that kill you anyway. The glider may well always be worth more than you paid for it.

Jim White[_3_]

January 4th 19, 09:12 AM

Consider buying a self launching 21. More expensive but you will not
require a tug or tuggie to operate it.
Jim

Dan Marotta

January 4th 19, 04:57 PM

What an ingenious idea!Â* I'll bet the price difference between the self
launch version and a tug would make that an attractive proposition.

On 1/4/2019 2:12 AM, Jim White wrote:
> Consider buying a self launching 21. More expensive but you will not
> require a tug or tuggie to operate it.
> Jim
>

--
Dan, 5J

[email protected]

January 4th 19, 05:49 PM

On Friday, January 4, 2019 at 11:57:06 AM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
> What an ingenious idea!Â* I'll bet the price difference between the self
> launch version and a tug would make that an attractive proposition.
>
> On 1/4/2019 2:12 AM, Jim White wrote:
> > Consider buying a self launching 21. More expensive but you will not
> > require a tug or tuggie to operate it.
> > Jim
> >
>
> --
> Dan, 5J

Perhaps start with a touring motorglider that has a towhook. Make glider pilots and tow pilots at the same time.

John Foster

January 4th 19, 07:56 PM

On Thursday, January 3, 2019 at 5:59:36 AM UTC-7, WB wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 2, 2019 at 1:01:53 PM UTC-6, John Foster wrote:
> > On Wednesday, January 2, 2019 at 2:11:23 AM UTC-7, Frank Whiteley wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, January 1, 2019 at 8:13:46 AM UTC-7, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> > > > On Mon, 31 Dec 2018 19:21:45 -0800, WB wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > There is nothing new under the sun when it comes to ground launching,
> > > > > auto tow, winch, whatever. It's pretty much all been tried. Derek Piggot
> > > > > wrote a book that is a great resource for learning about ground launch
> > > > > in it's many forms. Unfortunately, it appears to be out of print.
> > > > >
> > > > ITYM "Gliding - A handbook on Soaring Flight"
> > > >
> > > > Edition 7, which I have (blue cover showing a DG-800B with its motor
> > > > out), has two chapters on ground launching and is currently on offer from
> > > > Amazon for $3.60. His books may be out of print, but you can easily find
> > > > copies. Amazon even has a Derek Piggott author page.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Martin | martin at
> > > > Gregorie | gregorie dot org
> > >
> > > Derek's insights on ground launching are very good. There are a number of variables that need some additional consideration. Here in Colorado summers, we can have density altitudes approaching 10,000ft at 5500MSL field elevation, which affect performance of both winches and gliders and auto tows, if used. The OP's location is at 3000MSL with slightly lower expected seasonal temperatures.
> > >
> > > I'm not aware of any operations that have used direct or reverse-pulleys with UHMWPE ropes. 30 plus years ago, the old Enstone GC attempted to use a pulley with Parafil and the results were not successful. Could have been a design issue. Parafil worked a treat for auto tow and could be retrieved quickly for the next launch. I'm not certain UHMWPE ropes would work in those cases, however, Amsteel II is a sheathed rope, so might work in a similar role.
> > >
> > > Direct pulley and auto tow is often done without a drogue chute so the rope will drop without much drift. A chute could result in considerable drift without any control. A drogue chute on a reverse pulley allows the end of the rope to be landed next to the pulley and it will be set up for the next launch. A rope break is the only real problem. The OP's airport has runway lights, which in my opinion makes direct pulley and auto tow not viable. There is a second airport option, very close to the mountains, which might allow easy access to ridge soaring. If the wind is enough for ridge flight, it would also maybe help with the launch heights to reach for the lift and/or return to the airport. A reverse pulley would allow for operations from both sites, though there is the problem of different run lengths.. John, what was that second airport?
> > >
> > > Frank Whiteley
> >
> > The second airport is St Ignatius (52S). Elevation is about the same at about 3K ft. Runway is only 2600 ft though. It also has runway lights.
> >
> > Again, the purpose of this thread is to look at (cheap) options to get a club STARTED in a rural area in a low population density state. There is not a lot of money around here. Obviously there are better ways to launch gliders, but it costs more, and I'm looking for ways to make this affordable, at least until we can achieve critical mass to make this club self-sustaining. At that point we could start looking at options to improve launch equipment. At this point we don't even have sufficient interest to generate enough capital to buy a two-seater glider, even one that is only $6000. There is interest, but not enough people to put money on the table yet. That's my challenge.
>
> Here's how you can afford to get a club glider: Finance it with a loan with the longest term you can and that will allow you the option of paying interest only. We did that to buy our first 2 seater. Some months, we could only afford the $50 interest. However, it got us going and we ended up actually paying off the loan early. Some people will cringe at this strategy and tell you it is financial idiocy. However, with a glider club, where we typically have a lot of membership turnover,no single individual ends up paying much more with this type of financing than with just buying a glider outright. If you have enough interest to keep the glider busy, it will soon pay for itself.

Do you have a link for where you could get this kind of a loan? I would imagine the monthly payments would depend on a lot of things, like the amount down, interest rate, and the cost of the glider. No matter how you do it, the money is going to have to come from somewhere though. It all depends on how much.

Bruce Hoult

January 4th 19, 11:24 PM

On Friday, January 4, 2019 at 8:57:06 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
> What an ingenious idea!Â* I'll bet the price difference between the self
> launch version and a tug would make that an attractive proposition.
>
> On 1/4/2019 2:12 AM, Jim White wrote:
> > Consider buying a self launching 21. More expensive but you will not
> > require a tug or tuggie to operate it.

Seems in Jan 2018 it was 90100 euro for a traditional ASK-21 and 153600 euro for the self-launcher, a 63500 euro or $72362 difference. That's right in the range that 235 Pawnees go for with lowish time engines. I don't know how the hourly running costs would compare over time.

January 5th 19, 02:16 AM

We just went to one of our local banks. Told them we wanted to finance an aircraft and stipulated that we wanted a loan where we could choose to just pay interest if we wanted. I seem to remember that it was Suntrust Bank. They were OK with that. I think we paid maybe $1500 down on a Ka7 that was going for around $8000. Donâ€™t remember the interest rate. Lea County State Bank in Hobbs, NM specializes in glider loans (thanks to their relationship with SSA). They would probably be the logical place to start.

Bruce Hoult

January 5th 19, 03:12 AM

On Friday, January 4, 2019 at 6:16:48 PM UTC-8, WB wrote:
> We just went to one of our local banks. Told them we wanted to finance an aircraft and stipulated that we wanted a loan where we could choose to just pay interest if we wanted. I seem to remember that it was Suntrust Bank. They were OK with that. I think we paid maybe $1500 down on a Ka7 that was going for around $8000. Donâ€™t remember the interest rate. Lea County State Bank in Hobbs, NM specializes in glider loans (thanks to their relationship with SSA). They would probably be the logical place to start.

In New Zealand, the national gliding organisation (http://gliding.co.nz/) provides low interest long term loans for clubs to buy gliders.

In my own club we've been fortunate to have one or two reasonably wealthy members who also make low interest loans to the club, for example for the two DG1000 Club gliders purchased in the mid 2000's, and for the new Skylaunch winch purchased two years ago.

John Foster

January 5th 19, 03:57 AM

On Friday, January 4, 2019 at 7:16:48 PM UTC-7, WB wrote:
> We just went to one of our local banks. Told them we wanted to finance an aircraft and stipulated that we wanted a loan where we could choose to just pay interest if we wanted. I seem to remember that it was Suntrust Bank. They were OK with that. I think we paid maybe $1500 down on a Ka7 that was going for around $8000. Donâ€™t remember the interest rate. Lea County State Bank in Hobbs, NM specializes in glider loans (thanks to their relationship with SSA). They would probably be the logical place to start.

Thanks. I'll look into those two options.

On a separate note: how was the Ka7 as a first club two-seater? I realize that visibility from the rear seat is sub-optimal, but was it an OK glider to start with, for the money? I've been given a Ka8, which I intend to restore and use as a club glider, but it could only be used for licensed glider pilots, and right now, there are only two of us in the area.

Bob Youngblood

January 5th 19, 08:41 AM

On Monday, April 23, 2018 at 4:56:24 PM UTC-4, John Foster wrote:
> Hi everyone
>
> I just started glider flying lessons and I'M HOOKED!!! Unfortunately, the closest glider club is 3:45 hr drive away. I also live in an area that looks to me to be perfect for ridge soaring, with a range of mountains facing the west that runs for at least 85 miles, and possibly longer. We have an airport close by with a 4800' runway, about 2-3 miles west of the mountains. A friend is a CFI and A&P, and is interested in getting his "glider ticket" as well. There are a few other folks in the area that have expressed varying interest in flying gliders as well. But as it currently stands, no one (except one possible individual that I haven't yet talked to) in the area actually flies gliders. My friend and I have talked about the possibility of starting a local club. What would be the best way to go about doing this?

I have been reading all the ideas coming from the gallery and people are getting real creative these days. Two years ago myself and another got together in a hangar and said that we were going to start a glider club. We did exactly that, please read July 2018 Soaring magazine and you will get a few of the details. Today we are approaching 80 members, more are showing up almost every weekend to see the activity and X52.
Let me make a few suggestions, #1 you do not need fancy gliders to start, #2 build it and they will come! We started with a couple of members who made an investment in equipment and leased it back to the club. Our initial package was one tow plane and two gliders. Our primary trainer was the 233, the next ship was a 1-26. I bought a Pawnee to get us going and since that time our growth and additional gliders has been steady.
We just completed our second year and we surpassed the 1000 tow mark for the year, not bad!
You will need help, this is not a one person gig. Make sure you start off right, and try to avoid the roadblocks along the way, trust me, there will be plenty. Remember, you are not a commercial operation, clubs are different.. Don't be surprised if I show up there and become a member, Florida is getting too hot during the summer for this weathered old guy.

January 7th 19, 02:27 AM

On Friday, January 4, 2019 at 9:57:07 PM UTC-6, John Foster wrote:
> On Friday, January 4, 2019 at 7:16:48 PM UTC-7, WB wrote:
> > We just went to one of our local banks. Told them we wanted to finance an aircraft and stipulated that we wanted a loan where we could choose to just pay interest if we wanted. I seem to remember that it was Suntrust Bank.. They were OK with that. I think we paid maybe $1500 down on a Ka7 that was going for around $8000. Donâ€™t remember the interest rate. Lea County State Bank in Hobbs, NM specializes in glider loans (thanks to their relationship with SSA). They would probably be the logical place to start.
>
> Thanks. I'll look into those two options.
>
> On a separate note: how was the Ka7 as a first club two-seater? I realize that visibility from the rear seat is sub-optimal, but was it an OK glider to start with, for the money? I've been given a Ka8, which I intend to restore and use as a club glider, but it could only be used for licensed glider pilots, and right now, there are only two of us in the area.

We currently use a Ka7 as our primary trainer. The Ka7 is fine trainer, but getting a little old. There have been a couple of catastrophic failures of Ka7 wings in the past few years, so if you are looking at a Ka7, have it carefully inspected by someone who knows wood aircraft. Apparently, compression damage in the wings spars is the thing to look out for. Also, be careful about the condition of the fabric. The factory only used adhesive with no rib stitching to attach the wing fabric. I know of one Ka7 that lost most of the fabric off the bottom of one wing in flight. Luckily, the top fabric held and a safe landing was made. That Ka7 now has new, rib stitched covering on the wings. Ka7's ground launch very well, but remember that ground launching can put quite a lot of stress on the wings if not done correctly. As a trainer, the Ka7 will do a better job of training students for transition to high performance gliders than a 2-33, however, it will take students a few more flights to solo the Ka7 than it would the 2-33. Assuming it's airworthy, one major downside to a Ka-7 is the requirement to have a dry place to store it, preferably a hangar where it can be kept assembled. The other problem is that the front cockpit is kinda small for the "modern physique". Ka8's are the logical single place glider to complement the Ka7. We have 2 Ka8's now that are flown by everyone including solo students. We also have a fiberglass 2 seater (Scheibe SF-34), and a Standard Cirrus reserved for rated pilots.

John Foster

January 10th 19, 07:00 AM

Hopefully Iâ€™ll have a Ka8b flyable this summer.

What specifically would be a cheap rope alternative to Dyneema (minus the longevity)? Someone mentioned Dacron. Anything more specific?

January 10th 19, 05:05 PM

On Thursday, January 10, 2019 at 1:00:05 AM UTC-6, John Foster wrote:
> Hopefully Iâ€™ll have a Ka8b flyable this summer.
>
> What specifically would be a cheap rope alternative to Dyneema (minus the longevity)? Someone mentioned Dacron. Anything more specific?

You can get the equivalent to Dyneema from China fairly cheap. We used Dacron (3/8 inch, I think) for quite a while. We had 4000' and stored it on a surplus wooden cable reel mounted on a trailer. Dyneema (Spectra) is light enough and less bulky so you don't need a big reel.

John Foster

January 11th 19, 12:35 AM

On Thursday, January 10, 2019 at 10:05:32 AM UTC-7, WB wrote:
> On Thursday, January 10, 2019 at 1:00:05 AM UTC-6, John Foster wrote:
> > Hopefully Iâ€™ll have a Ka8b flyable this summer.
> >
> > What specifically would be a cheap rope alternative to Dyneema (minus the longevity)? Someone mentioned Dacron. Anything more specific?
>
> You can get the equivalent to Dyneema from China fairly cheap. We used Dacron (3/8 inch, I think) for quite a while. We had 4000' and stored it on a surplus wooden cable reel mounted on a trailer. Dyneema (Spectra) is light enough and less bulky so you don't need a big reel.

Where did you find a 4000' length of 3/8" Dacron rope, and how much did it cost?

Frank Whiteley

January 11th 19, 01:41 AM

On Thursday, January 10, 2019 at 10:05:32 AM UTC-7, WB wrote:
> On Thursday, January 10, 2019 at 1:00:05 AM UTC-6, John Foster wrote:
> > Hopefully Iâ€™ll have a Ka8b flyable this summer.
> >
> > What specifically would be a cheap rope alternative to Dyneema (minus the longevity)? Someone mentioned Dacron. Anything more specific?
>
> You can get the equivalent to Dyneema from China fairly cheap. We used Dacron (3/8 inch, I think) for quite a while. We had 4000' and stored it on a surplus wooden cable reel mounted on a trailer. Dyneema (Spectra) is light enough and less bulky so you don't need a big reel.

One of these will hold 6000ft of 3/16" Amsteel Blue and can be cranked readily if there are one or two helping walk in the rope.
https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200623839_200623839

The cheaper Dyneema from China may be a blend of Dyneema SK65/SK75 fibers. Amsteel Blue is Dyneema SK75. Haven't had time to study the differences yet.

Frank Whiteley

Peter Whitehead

January 11th 19, 05:52 AM

I started a Gliding club, Edensoaring in Cumbria, UK. That was 2007. They still use 'Skyrope' supplied by Skylaunch on their winch. I think it is three stranded high density polyethylene or polypropylene, 10 or 12 mm, but worth asking Mike Groves at Skylaunch. I have my own) (SKY)rope for expedition auto=towing (UKMSG) . Excellent value at approximately 450 dollars for 1000m (3300ft). In club use it does 1000 launches - ON GRASS - before replacement. Easy to splice.

Frank Whiteley

January 11th 19, 08:36 AM

Virtually any rope that will do 1000 launches can be amortized at a reasonable per launch rate. Perhaps even at 500 launches. As with any start up, it's the initial capital costs that bite or are intimidating. Some strategies work well in the UK, other strategies work well in the US.

The first step is organizing. That has some upfront costs, but those can be recaptured quite quickly. There are a number of business models, but John has been advised to follow the examples of Hamilton Soaring Club, Hood River Soaring, and Prescott Area Soaring, all 501(c)(3). The stated goal of Mission Mountain group begs getting the 501(c)(3) determination.

There aren't any real shortcuts, but there are opportunities. There's an EAA chapter 11 miles away and other about 58 miles away. Short distances in that neck of the woods. There are several Rotary clubs within a reasonable radius. The local Boys and Girls Club shows interest, but that, like other youth organizations are generally useful only as conduits for youth who become engaged.

Ropes have trade offs, but this location has a paved runway with runway like, so there are really only a couple of ground launch methods that are workable.

But it's winter, time to muse, seek answers, and plan.

Frank Whiteley