Attitudes & Reality

[BobW]

A post from another thread is timely - this being the start of the most active
part of the U.S. soaring season. Excerpted from another thread:

<Beginning of Excerpt...>

"There's a personality type that won't be convinced. I stopped to talk to a
pilot who was launching on a wave day at Minden. Foehn gap was dynamic,
tentacles moving and reaching in with drizzle earlier as I drove north on
Foothill to Minden airport. The gap, and a lone sucker hole about half way to
the Pinenuts, were the only holes through an otherwise solid deck at about
9,000'.

"He was the only one launching in his Carat. I'd asked him before about no
chute, said they were uncomfortable, I suggested he sit in my glider to see
what he thought - he countered, "You don't use a chute in your Mooney, do you?
Well, my Carat is certified too".

"He was relatively new to soaring, so I cautioned him about going above and
leaving the gap. He said he wouldn't do that as he didn't have O2 because of a
slow leak - he declined my offer to fill his tank. There was more, but to keep
it short . . . he died that day as I was eating lunch at the Taildragger. He
was a retired airline pilot, lot's of experience but no attitude gyro. Kept
his GPS off in the side pocket until he needed it. He went IMC. The debris
field was 5 miles long. My golden retriever and I would be the last to ever
greet him.

"Really good pilots don't need Flarm. Don't need a chute either. He was not
THAT good."

<End of Excerpt...>

I'm likely not the only RASident to remember this particular pilot from his
tenure-on/contributions-to RAS. I didn't know the man, or his background,
beyond what was self-revealed in his posts, but I remember certain aspects (as
they seemed to me) of his post-centric-personality triggered tiny flags of
concern in my noodle. Unsurprisingly to me, nothing from the excerpt above is
at odds with those now-ancient recollections. The flags all had to do with
what seemed-to-me to be "unwarranted certitude" relative to certain
safety-related opinions held by the poster. My never-verbalized take then, was
along the lines of: I hope your future PIC realities don't exceed your
"expressed certitudes." Reality always wins.

Soaring - everything - has risks. It's up to J. Pilot to intelligently
mitigate 'em. Apparently, the pilot in the cautionary tale above could have
done a better job of mitigating those related to his soaring "career."
Sometimes warning flags are raised in others' minds; sometimes not. Reason for
this post is to encourage more toward the "active awareness" portion of
reading pilots' brains, the *possibility* that their attitudes - and decisions
relating thereto - may have "quite direct, negative" influences upon their
flight outcomes. The trick - in my view - is to actively seek to bias "future
reality" in your favor as much as reasonably possible. What that motherhood
and apple pie statement means is (almost) entirely up to J. Pilot. FLARM,
transponder, parachute, ATC vs. Experimental certification, pure or
engine-assisted ship, XC, competition, wave or ridge or thermal-only
soaring... J. Pilot gets - and *needs* - to choose. Many an accident report
strongly suggests it DOESN'T go without saying, "Choose wisely."

Avoidable loss of life is always a tragedy in my view, regardless of the
proximity of the personal relationship.

Bob W.

P.S. For the record, if any reader's main takeaway from reading my opinions as
expressed in this post, is something along the lines of, "Man! This guy is
really good at second-guessing someone else's decisions," I'll regretfully
have to conclude my self-selected little safety sermon hasn't been entirely
successful! In any event have - safe - fun out there, everyone!!!

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com

[[email protected]]

I read that same original post - it really made me ponder my flying........... after thinking I came to think that often times we as type A pilots, competitors, OLC types or just at 5,000 MSL floating around the airport types - we forget about the people connected to us. Maybe OTHERS are more important to protect than we are.

Maybe it is more impotent to have a Flarm to protect the other guy and his family. So if I am at Mifflin screaming down the ridge at 110 knots and a pilot without Flarm am I endangering the other guy coming at me at 110.

Maybe before I get into my glider or make a decision to "try something" I need to stop a second and remember my family and friends who pay the price if the something doesn't work.

Maybe if I hear a complaint about transponders being too expensive I should point out the 100+ people who could have their lives destroyed if I am tucked under a cloud invisible to the ATC when they are on a jet coming down to land on the way home from vacation.

I am NOT saying accidents can be avoided - or that we can not have risk in our lives. I am saying it is a good feeling to sleep at night believing you have done everything you can to avoid bad things from happening, especially to other people who were just innocent bystanders.

Thanks for the Post Bob W -

WH

[[email protected]]

Add 'I'm safer because I have the latest gadgets' to the dangerous attitudes list.

[[email protected]]

On Monday, April 30, 2018 at 2:20:17 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> Add 'I'm safer because I have the latest gadgets' to the dangerous attitudes list.

:) LOL

I am pretty sure that is what they said when they put breaks in the horseless carriages.

And I remember my dad telling me the same when they put those annoying seat belts in cars.

I can go on with those forever.

It is not about the latest gadgets nor the latest anything. It is about some one saying i have something that can save a life and some one else says "I do not care, it's just new, it's too expensive"

You are not safer because you have the newest anything - you are safer because you are always looking for what ever device, document, conversation.... picture helps you try to be safer.

The attitude that the column above suggests is not healthy is "I already have 2 eyeballs and that everything I need to be safe" - now that I would definetly add to the list :)

WH

[[email protected]]

On Monday, April 30, 2018 at 3:06:03 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> On Monday, April 30, 2018 at 2:20:17 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > Add 'I'm safer because I have the latest gadgets' to the dangerous attitudes list.
>
> :) LOL
>
> I am pretty sure that is what they said when they put breaks in the horseless carriages.
>
> And I remember my dad telling me the same when they put those annoying seat belts in cars.
>
> I can go on with those forever.
>
> It is not about the latest gadgets nor the latest anything. It is about some one saying i have something that can save a life and some one else says "I do not care, it's just new, it's too expensive"
>
> You are not safer because you have the newest anything - you are safer because you are always looking for what ever device, document, conversation..... picture helps you try to be safer.
>
> The attitude that the column above suggests is not healthy is "I already have 2 eyeballs and that everything I need to be safe" - now that I would definetly add to the list :)
>
> WH

Monkey brain says it is OK to spend a few more seconds on the flight computer without looking outside cause I have Flarm. Monkey brain believes I am a safe pilot cause I bought stuff, thus I can fly with less discipline. Fake rational human brain on the ground denies such behaviors.

[[email protected]]

Monkey brain - Really......

It is attitude we are talking about. (I think) - My rational is based completely on what keeps other people affected by our behaviors safer.

Now if you want to make the argument that flying to cloud base in a glider with no transponder and no Flarm (many of us in IFR Airways) is safer than have either one or both - now that's what I would love to hear. and if you suggest we (as a group) do not do that....... than we are not having an honest discussion.

Just think about what you say to the family of the people on the Jet Blue flight that hit you while descending through the cloud that you were sitting under........ actually let's be real - the person making the excuse for you is not you, it is your wife/mother/dad..... because you are not there to tell them "sorry I didn't see you".

The text at the beginning of the thread was food for thought - so I thought - I merely added that some of the thought needs to be directed at the people we forget about while we are focused during the act of flying.

One of the main drivers to changed attitude is "Empathy" - when you hurt yourself, you are not the only one affected - sometime I forget this. That's all.

All I am saying is next time your at 6,000 MSL in your glider with only your 2 eyeballs to prevent the business jet from dropping out of the cloud onto your head - ponder the possible outcomes (1. nothing comes down, 2 jet comes down and misses you, 3 jet comes down and you get hurt, 4 everyone gets hurt) and how you justify each to ALL the people affected.

WH

[Paul Agnew]

What ever happened to See and Avoid? Is ignorance bliss in aviation, too?

I flew three days last week in my ASW-19 and encountered a Piper Lance that wanted to circle around me as I was in a thermal - forcing me to abandon some good lift in order to keep him in sight, two corporate jets passing below me and not on the local airways or approach corridors, a Piper that flew right by me and never made any adjustment to his course, several GA airplanes and a Robinson blowing through the local traffic pattern without so much as a radio call, and one Piper blindly blasting right through the center of a cu I was working next to - presumably so he could log .1 instrument time. I seriously doubt the cloudbuster was on an instrument flight plan because we have verified that we are clearly visible as primary targets on ATC radar and they propbably would have alerted them to my location.

In the past year, on behalf of our club, I've been working behind the scenes on small changes that could have significant effects on logal GA awareness of our glider ops. It took eight months to process, but I was able to get the glider-in-tow symbol added to the local sectional and the AFD updated in hopes that it would remind some percentage of pilots to look out for us.. We have a great relationship with the local tower and they put a message about glider ops on ATIS whenever we are up. The local flight schools are also all aware of our location and operations. With everything we've done to make ourselves conspicuous, the weekend warriors and corporate pilots appear to be flying heads down. It's time for another information campaign and, perhaps, some posters for the FBO/Flightschool bulletin boards. That, and I plan to leverage the TCAS system the corporate jets all have via my own transponder.

It's a target rich environment out there and I've been waiting to install a Mode-C transponder during my upcoming annual. The time has come and now I find I need to educate myself on Flarm and other collision alert options. Balancing expense and safety is always a delicate exercise, and the cost of a Flarm doesn't help that decision.

Paul A.

[Paul Agnew]

What ever happened to See and Avoid? Is ignorance bliss in aviation, too?

I flew three days last week in my ASW-19 and encountered a Piper Lance that wanted to circle around me as I was in a thermal - forcing me to abandon some good lift in order to keep him in sight, two corporate jets passing below me and not on the local airways or approach corridors, a Piper that flew right by me and never made any adjustment to his course, several GA airplanes and a Robinson blowing through the local traffic pattern without so much as a radio call, and one Piper blindly blasting right through the center of a cu I was working next to - presumably so he could log .1 instrument time. I seriously doubt the cloudbuster was on an instrument flight plan because we have verified that we are clearly visible as primary targets on ATC radar and they probably would have alerted them to my location.

In the past year, on behalf of our club, I've been working behind the scenes on small changes that could have significant effects on local GA awareness of our glider ops. It took eight months to process, but I was able to get the glider-in-tow symbol added to the local sectional and the AFD updated in hopes that it would remind some percentage of pilots to look out for us.. We have a great relationship with the local tower and they put a message about glider ops on ATIS whenever we are up. The local flight schools are also all aware of our location and operations. With everything we've done to make ourselves conspicuous, the weekend warriors and corporate pilots appear to be flying heads down. It's time for another information campaign and, perhaps, some posters for the FBO/Flightschool bulletin boards. That, and I plan to leverage the TCAS system the corporate jets all have via my own transponder.

It's a target rich environment out there and I've been waiting to install a Mode-C transponder during my upcoming annual. The time has come and now I find I need to educate myself on Flarm and other collision alert options. Balancing expense and safety is always a delicate exercise, and the cost of a Flarm doesn't help that decision.

Paul A.

[jfitch]

On Monday, April 30, 2018 at 3:07:54 PM UTC-7, Paul Agnew wrote:
> What ever happened to See and Avoid? Is ignorance bliss in aviation, too?
>
> I flew three days last week in my ASW-19 and encountered a Piper Lance that wanted to circle around me as I was in a thermal - forcing me to abandon some good lift in order to keep him in sight, two corporate jets passing below me and not on the local airways or approach corridors, a Piper that flew right by me and never made any adjustment to his course, several GA airplanes and a Robinson blowing through the local traffic pattern without so much as a radio call, and one Piper blindly blasting right through the center of a cu I was working next to - presumably so he could log .1 instrument time. I seriously doubt the cloudbuster was on an instrument flight plan because we have verified that we are clearly visible as primary targets on ATC radar and they probably would have alerted them to my location.
>
> In the past year, on behalf of our club, I've been working behind the scenes on small changes that could have significant effects on local GA awareness of our glider ops. It took eight months to process, but I was able to get the glider-in-tow symbol added to the local sectional and the AFD updated in hopes that it would remind some percentage of pilots to look out for us. We have a great relationship with the local tower and they put a message about glider ops on ATIS whenever we are up. The local flight schools are also all aware of our location and operations. With everything we've done to make ourselves conspicuous, the weekend warriors and corporate pilots appear to be flying heads down. It's time for another information campaign and, perhaps, some posters for the FBO/Flightschool bulletin boards. That, and I plan to leverage the TCAS system the corporate jets all have via my own transponder.
>
> It's a target rich environment out there and I've been waiting to install a Mode-C transponder during my upcoming annual. The time has come and now I find I need to educate myself on Flarm and other collision alert options. Balancing expense and safety is always a delicate exercise, and the cost of a Flarm doesn't help that decision.
>
> Paul A.

See and Avoid is great for those things that you see. When you get ADS-B in and/or Flarm installed, you will realize just how much you haven't seen. That's in a slow moving glider with big windows. Now imagine it from the standpoint of a jet with small windows moving at 4x your speed, looking for a glider which is nearly invisible head on.

To be really honest, the main thing that is keeping us from bumping into things is the Big Sky theory. Broadcasting your position via Flarm or ADS-B out takes zero pilot time or skill, and might just warn that heads down jet jockey or oncoming ridge soaring glider around the corner that you are there.

[Ramy[_2_]]

On Monday, April 30, 2018 at 3:07:54 PM UTC-7, Paul Agnew wrote:
> What ever happened to See and Avoid? Is ignorance bliss in aviation, too?
>
> I flew three days last week in my ASW-19 and encountered a Piper Lance that wanted to circle around me as I was in a thermal - forcing me to abandon some good lift in order to keep him in sight, two corporate jets passing below me and not on the local airways or approach corridors, a Piper that flew right by me and never made any adjustment to his course, several GA airplanes and a Robinson blowing through the local traffic pattern without so much as a radio call, and one Piper blindly blasting right through the center of a cu I was working next to - presumably so he could log .1 instrument time. I seriously doubt the cloudbuster was on an instrument flight plan because we have verified that we are clearly visible as primary targets on ATC radar and they probably would have alerted them to my location.
>
> In the past year, on behalf of our club, I've been working behind the scenes on small changes that could have significant effects on local GA awareness of our glider ops. It took eight months to process, but I was able to get the glider-in-tow symbol added to the local sectional and the AFD updated in hopes that it would remind some percentage of pilots to look out for us. We have a great relationship with the local tower and they put a message about glider ops on ATIS whenever we are up. The local flight schools are also all aware of our location and operations. With everything we've done to make ourselves conspicuous, the weekend warriors and corporate pilots appear to be flying heads down. It's time for another information campaign and, perhaps, some posters for the FBO/Flightschool bulletin boards. That, and I plan to leverage the TCAS system the corporate jets all have via my own transponder.
>
> It's a target rich environment out there and I've been waiting to install a Mode-C transponder during my upcoming annual. The time has come and now I find I need to educate myself on Flarm and other collision alert options. Balancing expense and safety is always a delicate exercise, and the cost of a Flarm doesn't help that decision.
>
> Paul A.

Paul, I am glad you finally decided to install a transponder. You described more encounters in 3 days than I had in 20 years and over 6000 hours of flying in some of the most busiest areas (Bay Area and Reno area). Could it be because I am flying with transponders since day one, or just a coincidence?
See and avoid barely works, and mostly in traffic patterns. Otherwise, you only see the traffic which is not on collision course.


To Greg, are you for real? If so, all I can do is facepalm and hoping that our flights will never cross paths.

Ramy

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Monday, April 30, 2018 at 11:20:17 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> Add 'I'm safer because I have the latest gadgets' to the dangerous attitudes list.

Dude, remember the Biz jet and brand new ASG-29 over the Pine Nuts? Lastest technology (transponder on) would have kept that event from happening. I understand why 2-33's without radios or batteries do not have transponders and Flarm, but every private ship flying XC should be equipped with either.. We just had a near miss in the Chicago area with a 737 and an ASH-26 (without transponder)! You don't see the guy behind you flying 200 knots faster than you. You must have 20/20 20/20 vision, with the eyes in the back of your head.

I would argue composite gliders are safer than wooden gliders, GPS is safer than paper maps, Moving map computers are safer than a wiz wheel and paper map... list goes on and on. Technology moves with progression of time, clocks that bind will be left to rust.

I am not sure what your point is, my flight computer actually verbally tells me where to look for conflict traffic. My transponder and Flarm also tell other pilots where I am. I keep a good scan as that is also how you see the weather, and traffic, but when my computer tells me where to look I do, and it is safer for BOTH me and traffic.

Are you seriously arguing that transponders and Flarm are not added safety?

As for brakes on horseless carriage, standard equipment, as should a transponder and/or Flarm.

[[email protected]]

To the guy that accuses us of having "monkey brains-"

Do you really believe that great eyesight and a proper scan (while desirable and a definite benefit) are somehow superior to great eyesight, a proper scan AND situational awareness of gliders, power traffic and UFOs? Let's face it- if there is somebody in my "six" and I get a notification on the "TV" (as you put it), then that is one more piece of the situational awareness that affects my decision process.

If, on the other hand, you in your little Luddite world have no knowledge of Mister X coming up behind you, and you decide to make a hard left into a thermal populated by the guys you CAN see, and are nailed by Mister X, (who had Flarm, an XPDR with ADS-B and maybe a red flag), does your smug sense of superiority make the bailout any less traumatic?

[son_of_flubber]

On Monday, April 30, 2018 at 7:55:30 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:

> To Greg, are you for real?

I welcome Gregg's posts because he speaks for many pilots. Contrary posts clarify people's thinking.

Keep the posts coming Gregg. It's good to know that pilots like you are out there.

[[email protected]]

You think you are safe at cloudbase because you have a transponder and or Flarm? Hooked up to a hobby battery with wires and connectors from radio shack. Lolz. Good number of the posts on RAS are about our glider electronics malfunctioning. And with working gadgets we still have the monkey brain electronic gadget interface incompatibilities.
For those offended by 'monkey brain' as a description of the machinations of human pilots try one of the scientific terms. Risk homeostasis is a good start.

On Monday, April 30, 2018 at 4:41:14 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> Monkey brain - Really......
>
> It is attitude we are talking about. (I think) - My rational is based completely on what keeps other people affected by our behaviors safer.
>
> Now if you want to make the argument that flying to cloud base in a glider with no transponder and no Flarm (many of us in IFR Airways) is safer than have either one or both - now that's what I would love to hear. and if you suggest we (as a group) do not do that....... than we are not having an honest discussion.
>
> Just think about what you say to the family of the people on the Jet Blue flight that hit you while descending through the cloud that you were sitting under........ actually let's be real - the person making the excuse for you is not you, it is your wife/mother/dad..... because you are not there to tell them "sorry I didn't see you".
>
> The text at the beginning of the thread was food for thought - so I thought - I merely added that some of the thought needs to be directed at the people we forget about while we are focused during the act of flying.
>
> One of the main drivers to changed attitude is "Empathy" - when you hurt yourself, you are not the only one affected - sometime I forget this. That's all.
>
> All I am saying is next time your at 6,000 MSL in your glider with only your 2 eyeballs to prevent the business jet from dropping out of the cloud onto your head - ponder the possible outcomes (1. nothing comes down, 2 jet comes down and misses you, 3 jet comes down and you get hurt, 4 everyone gets hurt) and how you justify each to ALL the people affected.
>
> WH

[[email protected]]

"You think you are safe at cloudbase because you have a transponder and or Flarm? Hooked up to a hobby battery with wires and connectors from radio shack."

First off, I don't use "hobby batteries" or connectors from Radio Shack. (Not that it matters- RS has some decent stuff if you know what to look for. And I know how to wire my cockpit. Tefzel wire etc. etc.)

Am I safe at cloudbase with Flarm, transponder and ADS-B? Maybe, maybe not. But I am definitely safer than you with nothing but the Mk 1 eyeball and a chip on your shoulder.

[Dan Marotta]

On 4/30/2018 6:58 PM, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> As for brakes on horseless carriage, standard equipment, as should a transponder and/or Flarm.
No argument here, just musing on progress.Â* Remember when seat belts in
cars cost extra, or when you had to buy the top of the line model to get
air bags?Â* Now they're all standard equipment though cars cost a lot
more than they used to, even, I'd wager, when considering inflation.

I was watching across the taxiway as the owner of the hangar across from
mine was preparing to replace his Flarm portable with a brick in his
brand new Ventus 3.Â* Later, I walked over to check on his progress and
he told me that he was already receiving ADS-B targets!Â* How could he
have completed the installation so quickly? As it turns out and, I think
to his surprise, the factory had already installed an antenna in the
tail, all the cabling required, and even a mounting plate under the
glare shield!Â* All he had to do was hook up the cables, attach the brick
to the mount, and turn on the master switch.Â* That was pretty good
service, if you ask me.
--
Dan, 5J

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Tuesday, May 1, 2018 at 7:42:53 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
.....Â* Remember when seat belts in
> cars cost extra, ...
> Dan, 5J

No, I don't.

[Dan Marotta]

Maybe I misspoke.Â* My '63 Chevy Nova, purchased in '68, didn't have seat
belts so I bought and installed them.Â* Maybe they simply weren't
available from the factory...

On 5/1/2018 8:52 AM, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 1, 2018 at 7:42:53 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> ....Â* Remember when seat belts in
>> cars cost extra, ...
>> Dan, 5J
> No, I don't.

--
Dan, 5J

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, May 1, 2018 at 10:00:01 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> "You think you are safe at cloudbase because you have a transponder and or Flarm? Hooked up to a hobby battery with wires and connectors from radio shack."

I agree with one of the earlier posts - it is good that Gregg is in the conversation - the first step convincing anyone of any thing is to understand where how their thought process.

I think some people of Gregg opinion think that if you do something new or that adds, it replaces what was the norm - the "you can not do 2 things at the same time" i.e. Flarm replaces See and Avoid. It is a pretty common argument from most late adapters and no need for drama or ridicule. More a human condition thing.

Again I go back to - your opinion may be that you are safe at cloud base with only see and avoid (looking where you can not see) - but I bet if you asked any or every jet pilot about gliders circling at cloud base without a way to see if they are there - there would be 100% agreement in that result. Shouldn't they matter to us (the soaring community)

On "New Gadgets" - were are not talking about new improved decals - gadget kind of marginalizes the topic.

If you took ta 2018 car (any car) and started taking stuff off it until you only had items found in a 1954 muscle car - I do not think there is any doubt in anyone's mind which is the safer thing to drive. Pretty much a slam dunk.

Everyone has their own threshold of risk - I just think we need to remember the risk is not only to "Me the Pilot". I just do not see how flying Stealth allows another aircraft from slamming into you because they could not see you - and how you justify your desire to not allow them to see you. I decided a while ago not to fly without both a Flarm and transponder - and if they make something else that allows another aircraft to see me - i will get that also.

It is pretty common to hear glider pilots giving advice on a glider purchase to say " spend money on a glider you like and more for to get a trailer you love" - I would add "budget for a device you can see other planes and they can see you".

As I was told by my mentor in gliding - "the glider that hits you is the one you did not see"

WH

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

At cloud base you have violated FARs. How many Western pilots actually know and adhere to cloud clearance regulations above 10,000ft?

111 1,000 ft below; 1,000 above and 1 sm horizontal

> ....Again I go back to - your opinion may be that you are safe at cloud base ....

[Dan Marotta]

One of the really nice things about flying "out west" is having cloud
bases above 20,000' MSL.Â* I never go above 18,000' any more, it's just
too cold!

On 5/1/2018 1:24 PM, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> At cloud base you have violated FARs. How many Western pilots actually know and adhere to cloud clearance regulations above 10,000ft?
>
> 111 1,000 ft below; 1,000 above and 1 sm horizontal
>
>> ....Again I go back to - your opinion may be that you are safe at cloud base ....

--
Dan, 5J

[2G]

On Monday, April 30, 2018 at 9:07:48 AM UTC-7, BobW wrote:
> A post from another thread is timely - this being the start of the most active
> part of the U.S. soaring season. Excerpted from another thread:
>
> <Beginning of Excerpt...>
>
> "There's a personality type that won't be convinced. I stopped to talk to a
> pilot who was launching on a wave day at Minden. Foehn gap was dynamic,
> tentacles moving and reaching in with drizzle earlier as I drove north on
> Foothill to Minden airport. The gap, and a lone sucker hole about half way to
> the Pinenuts, were the only holes through an otherwise solid deck at about
> 9,000'.
>
> "He was the only one launching in his Carat. I'd asked him before about no
> chute, said they were uncomfortable, I suggested he sit in my glider to see
> what he thought - he countered, "You don't use a chute in your Mooney, do you?
> Well, my Carat is certified too".
>
> "He was relatively new to soaring, so I cautioned him about going above and
> leaving the gap. He said he wouldn't do that as he didn't have O2 because of a
> slow leak - he declined my offer to fill his tank. There was more, but to keep
> it short . . . he died that day as I was eating lunch at the Taildragger. He
> was a retired airline pilot, lot's of experience but no attitude gyro. Kept
> his GPS off in the side pocket until he needed it. He went IMC. The debris
> field was 5 miles long. My golden retriever and I would be the last to ever
> greet him.
>
> "Really good pilots don't need Flarm. Don't need a chute either. He was not
> THAT good."
>
> <End of Excerpt...>
>
> I'm likely not the only RASident to remember this particular pilot from his
> tenure-on/contributions-to RAS. I didn't know the man, or his background,
> beyond what was self-revealed in his posts, but I remember certain aspects (as
> they seemed to me) of his post-centric-personality triggered tiny flags of
> concern in my noodle. Unsurprisingly to me, nothing from the excerpt above is
> at odds with those now-ancient recollections. The flags all had to do with
> what seemed-to-me to be "unwarranted certitude" relative to certain
> safety-related opinions held by the poster. My never-verbalized take then, was
> along the lines of: I hope your future PIC realities don't exceed your
> "expressed certitudes." Reality always wins.
>
> Soaring - everything - has risks. It's up to J. Pilot to intelligently
> mitigate 'em. Apparently, the pilot in the cautionary tale above could have
> done a better job of mitigating those related to his soaring "career."
> Sometimes warning flags are raised in others' minds; sometimes not. Reason for
> this post is to encourage more toward the "active awareness" portion of
> reading pilots' brains, the *possibility* that their attitudes - and decisions
> relating thereto - may have "quite direct, negative" influences upon their
> flight outcomes. The trick - in my view - is to actively seek to bias "future
> reality" in your favor as much as reasonably possible. What that motherhood
> and apple pie statement means is (almost) entirely up to J. Pilot. FLARM,
> transponder, parachute, ATC vs. Experimental certification, pure or
> engine-assisted ship, XC, competition, wave or ridge or thermal-only
> soaring... J. Pilot gets - and *needs* - to choose. Many an accident report
> strongly suggests it DOESN'T go without saying, "Choose wisely."
>
> Avoidable loss of life is always a tragedy in my view, regardless of the
> proximity of the personal relationship.
>
> Bob W.
>
> P.S. For the record, if any reader's main takeaway from reading my opinions as
> expressed in this post, is something along the lines of, "Man! This guy is
> really good at second-guessing someone else's decisions," I'll regretfully
> have to conclude my self-selected little safety sermon hasn't been entirely
> successful! In any event have - safe - fun out there, everyone!!!
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> http://www.avg.com

I have a very simple rule of thumb: I would rather be on the ground wishing I was up there, than be up there wishing I was on the ground!

Tom

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

Right up there with comments like......
Runway behind you
Altitude above you
Fuel at the filling station.

See and avoid is still primary unless real IFR (IFR in VFR does NOT mean you don't look outside).

At our field, when we get to 5000', it pays to look to the north/northeast now and then. We are under an airway to the major airports in the NY metro area. We have tried to have ATC keep heavy iron above cloud base on weekends.

We are also about 18 miles from a VOR, so we look more when in that area.

But we should always be looking.
Black boxes and screens are nice to add to the mix, but I still rely on my eyeballs.

[Tango Eight]

On Tuesday, May 1, 2018 at 8:49:11 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> You think you are safe at cloudbase because you have a transponder and or Flarm? Hooked up to a hobby battery with wires and connectors from radio shack. Lolz. Good number of the posts on RAS are about our glider electronics malfunctioning. And with working gadgets we still have the monkey brain electronic gadget interface incompatibilities.

Actually no, I've never thought I was "safe" in a glider, at cloudbase or otherwise. Soaring, like most activities that involve human control of lots of energy is *inherently* dangerous. It's my job to mitigate the risks. Statistically, we know that the biggies are take off emergencies and bad landings, frequently seasoned with a measure of poor judgement (go/no-go decisions, etc). Mid air threats are secondary, but nasty buggers because our monkey brains and monkey eyes have inherent limitations. Flarm looks through all 4 pi steriradians at once for other flarms and adsbs, and it does a great job. Smart pilots look at flarm as part of a layered defense against midair threats.

T8

[bumper[_4_]]

Or the old one:

Never run out of altitude, airspeed and ideas at the same time.

That has to go back at least to WWII I bet.

[kirk.stant]

On Friday, May 4, 2018 at 11:00:38 AM UTC-5, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)

> See and avoid is still primary unless real IFR (IFR in VFR does NOT mean you don't look outside).
>
> At our field, when we get to 5000', it pays to look to the north/northeast now and then. We are under an airway to the major airports in the NY metro area. We have tried to have ATC keep heavy iron above cloud base on weekends.
>
> We are also about 18 miles from a VOR, so we look more when in that area.
>
> But we should always be looking.
> Black boxes and screens are nice to add to the mix, but I still rely on my eyeballs.

The trouble is, eyeballs don't work for **** when you really need them. Big Sky is still the main collision avoidance system when flying gliders, unfortunately.

If you don't believe that, think a little about how the best eyeball scan is going to see a small, fast mover coming up behind you on a collision course while you are cruising between thermals.

Ever heard a plane before you saw it? I have - jets even - it's pretty spooky!

Don't get me wrong - eyeballs will keep YOU from hitting someone else. But they have a bad track record working the other way. Which is why I'll use any technology I can afford and fit In my glider to help me detect and avoid traffic.

Kirk
66

[[email protected]]

On Friday, May 4, 2018 at 5:18:18 PM UTC-4, kirk.stant wrote:
> On Friday, May 4, 2018 at 11:00:38 AM UTC-5, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)
>
> > See and avoid is still primary unless real IFR (IFR in VFR does NOT mean you don't look outside).
> >
> > At our field, when we get to 5000', it pays to look to the north/northeast now and then. We are under an airway to the major airports in the NY metro area. We have tried to have ATC keep heavy iron above cloud base on weekends.
> >
> > We are also about 18 miles from a VOR, so we look more when in that area.
> >
> > But we should always be looking.
> > Black boxes and screens are nice to add to the mix, but I still rely on my eyeballs.
>
> The trouble is, eyeballs don't work for **** when you really need them. Big Sky is still the main collision avoidance system when flying gliders, unfortunately.
>
> If you don't believe that, think a little about how the best eyeball scan is going to see a small, fast mover coming up behind you on a collision course while you are cruising between thermals.
>
> Ever heard a plane before you saw it? I have - jets even - it's pretty spooky!
>
> Don't get me wrong - eyeballs will keep YOU from hitting someone else. But they have a bad track record working the other way. Which is why I'll use any technology I can afford and fit In my glider to help me detect and avoid traffic.
>
> Kirk
> 66

Traffic warnings are no guarantee. Posted one of these before https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGQmdoK_ZfY
Consider all the gear up warnings that get ignored. Just because something beeps doesn't mean we will notice. And all the traffic alerts that aren't a factor are a distraction from flying and looking for the one with our name on it. ADS-B alerts train pilots to be distracted and stressed by traffic that isn't a collision risk. While adding to risk homeostasis.
With widespread adoption of this stuff you will see just as many if not more midairs.

[Dan Daly[_2_]]

>And all the traffic alerts that aren't a factor are a distraction from flying and looking for the one with our name on it. ADS-B alerts train pilots to be distracted and stressed by traffic that isn't a collision risk. While adding to risk homeostasis.
> With widespread adoption of this stuff you will see just as many if not more midairs.

Actually, the FLARM only alerts to properly configured (i.e., a glider is set as a glider) traffic. If it alerts, there is a collision risk. The algorithms they've been working on for a dozen or so years are very good. So you don't get "...all the traffic alerts that aren't a factor..."

[[email protected]]

>
> I have a very simple rule of thumb: I would rather be on the ground wishing I was up there, than be up there wishing I was on the ground!
>
> Tom


I use 'think how your decision will look on the accident report'

[2G]

On Friday, May 4, 2018 at 4:12:48 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> >
> > I have a very simple rule of thumb: I would rather be on the ground wishing I was up there, than be up there wishing I was on the ground!
> >
> > Tom
>
>
> I use 'think how your decision will look on the accident report'

Or on the front page of the newspaper for all your relatives and friends to read.

Tom

[Ramy[_2_]]

Folks like Gregg cracks me up with their cluelessness.. to prove his false point he keeps posting a video which is case in point of why see and avoid does not work. indeed most folks will miss the gorilla since we can’t trust our eyes. It was part of the presentation the flarm folks were giving at a time. And then he gives example of those cases when gear alarms were ignored. I heard of such cases. For each example of ignored gear alarm there are countless of examples were gear alarm saved a gear up landings.
I bet he drives without seat belts since there are documented cases of fatalities due to seat belts.

Ramy

[Darryl Ramm]

On Friday, May 4, 2018 at 7:21:37 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
> Folks like Gregg cracks me up with their cluelessness.. to prove his false point he keeps posting a video which is case in point of why see and avoid does not work. indeed most folks will miss the gorilla since we can’t trust our eyes. It was part of the presentation the flarm folks were giving at a time. And then he gives example of those cases when gear alarms were ignored. I heard of such cases. For each example of ignored gear alarm there are countless of examples were gear alarm saved a gear up landings.
> I bet he drives without seat belts since there are documented cases of fatalities due to seat belts.
>
> Ramy

Indeed clueless beyond belief. And yes the exact video that the FLARM founders used to use to make their point. Urs used it at safety seminars in the USA. The research project that started FLARM looked at visual perception, and wether glider marking etc. could help there. They ended up doing the collision avoidance radio technology path exactly because because the human eyeball and brain don't work so well for this and benefit greatly for assistance.

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

And, most of the "non club" ships I fly have Flarm. I welcome it, but it also means others have to have something the Flarm in the ship I'm flying can pick up.

Nuff said.....

[kirk.stant]

On Friday, May 4, 2018 at 5:28:24 PM UTC-5, wrote:

> Traffic warnings are no guarantee. Posted one of these before https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGQmdoK_ZfY
> Consider all the gear up warnings that get ignored. Just because something beeps doesn't mean we will notice. And all the traffic alerts that aren't a factor are a distraction from flying and looking for the one with our name on it. ADS-B alerts train pilots to be distracted and stressed by traffic that isn't a collision risk. While adding to risk homeostasis.
> With widespread adoption of this stuff you will see just as many if not more midairs.

Damnit, you are SO FULL OF **** it is unbelievable.

If you can't keep track of a collision warning display while flying, you have ABSOLUTELY NO BUSINESS BEING IN MY SKY.

Pathetic. Go crawl back into your cave and huddle by your fire as the storm goes by. Oh wait, that fire technology is bad and dangerous and makes you more likely to be eaten by a wolf!

Please take your flat-earth chem-trail BS somewhere else.

Kirk
66
NOT scared by technology.

[[email protected]]

Kirk -

http://www.travelweekly.com/Travel-News/Airline-News/Analysis-shows-pilots-often-ignore-Boeing-737-cockpit-alarm

http://m.tribune242.com/news/2015/feb/27/pilot-told-alert-shut/?templates=mobile

https://www.newscientist.com/blogs/onepercent/2012/07/af447-final-report.html

Research shows that even highly trained professional pilots carrying passengers ignore alarms.

[Ramy[_2_]]

Yes, distraction is a bitch and when distracted pilots ignore things. There is no guarantee that you will respond to a powerflarm alarm appropriately and on time. This is why I don’t expect it to completely eliminate mid airs. But you can be damn sure that it can significantly reduce mid airs (as it very clearly evidently does if you look at statistics). Simply since most of the time we don’t ignore alarms and we do take appropriate actions.

Ramy

[2G]

On Sunday, May 6, 2018 at 7:38:18 PM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
> On Friday, May 4, 2018 at 5:28:24 PM UTC-5, wrote:
>
> > Traffic warnings are no guarantee. Posted one of these before https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGQmdoK_ZfY
> > Consider all the gear up warnings that get ignored. Just because something beeps doesn't mean we will notice. And all the traffic alerts that aren't a factor are a distraction from flying and looking for the one with our name on it. ADS-B alerts train pilots to be distracted and stressed by traffic that isn't a collision risk. While adding to risk homeostasis.
> > With widespread adoption of this stuff you will see just as many if not more midairs.
>
> Damnit, you are SO FULL OF **** it is unbelievable.
>
> If you can't keep track of a collision warning display while flying, you have ABSOLUTELY NO BUSINESS BEING IN MY SKY.
>
> Pathetic. Go crawl back into your cave and huddle by your fire as the storm goes by. Oh wait, that fire technology is bad and dangerous and makes you more likely to be eaten by a wolf!
>
> Please take your flat-earth chem-trail BS somewhere else.
>
> Kirk
> 66
> NOT scared by technology.

Hmmm, are you from the FAA? So, it is YOUR sky, is it? You should take a Dale Carnegie course, "How to Win Friends and Influence People." You can get it for free:
http://images.kw.com/docs/2/1/2/212345/1285134779158_htwfaip.pdf

[[email protected]]

We have the same problem in medicine, its called Alarm Fatigue. During sedation there are alarms for just about every parameter that we monitor: absolute blood pressure, mean blood pressure, heart rate, oxygen concentration in the blood, carbon dioxide concentration in the breath, body temperature, and more. You can commonly have two or three alarms just on the border of triggering on and off and on and off and on and off throughout a many hour case. The brain can only concentrate on one thing at a time.

[[email protected]]

Think of the audio vario - that quiet drone in the subconscious - till you 300m above the ground and it's all you focussed on and every little warble has your full attention.

Clinton

[[email protected]]

Recall hearing that combat pilots in Vietnam would shut off all of their enemy radar/SAM missile warnings. relying on their eyes and radio calls from fellow pilots the electronic warnings being a distraction from staying alive. Any jet pilots from that era that can confirm or correct?

[Tango Eight]

On Monday, May 7, 2018 at 9:50:41 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> Recall hearing that combat pilots in Vietnam would shut off all of their enemy radar/SAM missile warnings. relying on their eyes and radio calls from fellow pilots the electronic warnings being a distraction from staying alive. Any jet pilots from that era that can confirm or correct?

Be sure to consult the dead ones, too. You want a fair and representative sample that includes the guys that might want a mulligan.

What's going on in this thread is the construction of edge cases and straw men. Edge cases might be real, but not representative of 95% of reality. The reality w.r.t. Flarm is that the bugs crawl around on the map where you might, or might not look at them and if one manages to get on an intersecting course with predicted close approach of around 25 seconds, the first stage alarm goes off, in my cockpit that's a clear male voice that announces "Traffic, 3 o'clock low" or whatever. There is also a display of relative bearing, relative altitude & distance (which I almost never look at). Alarm fatigue is not a factor.

It's like having a back seater with 4 pi steriradian xray vision, provided the other glider has flarm. It works -really- well. Can it fail? Sure. Would I trust it enough to alter my decision making or lookout in any way? Of course not. Is it worth having in a contest environment or other densely populated airspace (e.g. the Alps)? Yes, indeed.

If flarm is only 90% effective (choose another number if you like, but it appears to be pretty good) at reducing collisions, does this reduce it's value to zero? Of course not. You only need one pilot to take action to avoid a collision. Even if you can't cope, if you have flarm, I can avoid you.

Power flarm adds collision alerts for ADSB traffic transmitting on 1090es. That's a lot of small, fast jets, turbo props and such, in addition to slower GA and airliners. I see this traffic routinely (enough that I filter for relative altitude and distance so as not to clutter the display). I have yet to have a conflict alert for an ADSB contact, but that might come in handy for someone, some day.

Don't want to buy it? Statistically, you'll probably (there's that word) be okay, but please stop making fun of the guys that decided to throw down the money and solve that problem.

The only glider mid air I know of involving a flarm equipped glider in the US was the poor guy who got clobbered by a non-flarm equipped glider. No one died, which is why you haven't heard about it.

Evan Ludeman / T8

[Dan Marotta]

Situational awareness is not a bad thing (actually it's a really good
thing), if you know how to make use of it.Â* Yesterday, climbing out in
our airplane, I saw an ADS-B blip on the display.Â* It was 4 or 5 miles
away at about 10 o'clock and about 900 feet above our altitude.Â* As we
climbed, the altitude separation decreased but the clock position did
not change.Â* Still about 3 or 4 miles away, I made a slight turn into
the target to get him moving across our nose.Â* Once he was moving
relative to us, I knew there was no collision possibility unless he did
something to change the setup. At two miles we got a "Traffic, 2 miles,
low" warning and I saw a small helicopter passing below us.

Now that may seem like a lot of attention given to a single target, but
it was only brief glances and quick analyses of the situation. Most of
the time was spent looking at the upcoming mountain pass and keeping
eyes on the outside for traffic.Â* The "fish finder" is simply a backup
device (but a good one for what it does).

On 5/6/2018 8:38 PM, kirk.stant wrote:
> On Friday, May 4, 2018 at 5:28:24 PM UTC-5, wrote:
>
>> Traffic warnings are no guarantee. Posted one of these before https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGQmdoK_ZfY
>> Consider all the gear up warnings that get ignored. Just because something beeps doesn't mean we will notice. And all the traffic alerts that aren't a factor are a distraction from flying and looking for the one with our name on it. ADS-B alerts train pilots to be distracted and stressed by traffic that isn't a collision risk. While adding to risk homeostasis.
>> With widespread adoption of this stuff you will see just as many if not more midairs.
> Damnit, you are SO FULL OF **** it is unbelievable.
>
> If you can't keep track of a collision warning display while flying, you have ABSOLUTELY NO BUSINESS BEING IN MY SKY.
>
> Pathetic. Go crawl back into your cave and huddle by your fire as the storm goes by. Oh wait, that fire technology is bad and dangerous and makes you more likely to be eaten by a wolf!
>
> Please take your flat-earth chem-trail BS somewhere else.
>
> Kirk
> 66
> NOT scared by technology.

--
Dan, 5J

[kirk.stant]

On Monday, May 7, 2018 at 12:36:16 AM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
> On Sunday, May 6, 2018 at 7:38:18 PM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
>
> Hmmm, are you from the FAA? So, it is YOUR sky, is it? You should take a Dale Carnegie course, "How to Win Friends and Influence People." You can get it for free:
> http://images.kw.com/docs/2/1/2/212345/1285134779158_htwfaip.pdf

Yes, it IS my sky - and yours too. Unfortunately, it's also "Gregg.."'s sky.

And I don't need to win friends, I've got plenty of them - intelligent, open minded people - unlike trolls like Gregg..

If it sounds like I have no patience for fools and idiots - then I'm getting my point across absolutely dead on.

Cheers,

Kirk
66

[kirk.stant]

On Monday, May 7, 2018 at 6:48:38 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> We have the same problem in medicine, its called Alarm Fatigue. During sedation there are alarms for just about every parameter that we monitor: absolute blood pressure, mean blood pressure, heart rate, oxygen concentration in the blood, carbon dioxide concentration in the breath, body temperature, and more. You can commonly have two or three alarms just on the border of triggering on and off and on and off and on and off throughout a many hour case. The brain can only concentrate on one thing at a time.

And that is why "see and avoid" doesn't work - it is physiologically impossible to maintain a continuous effective scan of a blank sky for very long. Sure, you can look around all day long, fat, dumb, and happy that there is no-one sharing the sky with you, and your eyes are focused on your dusty canopy and won't see the AN225 that is about to run you over.

Effective scanning takes practice, good technique, and is a lot of work. It is NOT just looking out the window! And knowing where and when to look somewhere, cued by whatever technology you have, makes a huge difference in you motivation and ability to look for and actually see traffic.

Kirk
66

Kirk
66

[kirk.stant]

On Monday, May 7, 2018 at 8:50:41 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> Recall hearing that combat pilots in Vietnam would shut off all of their enemy radar/SAM missile warnings. relying on their eyes and radio calls from fellow pilots the electronic warnings being a distraction from staying alive. Any jet pilots from that era that can confirm or correct?

Yeah, I was a WSO close to that timeframe and had experience with the same early RWR equipment that the "war story" is referring to. That early gear was useful but somewhat limited and when you were deep in the middle of a bunch of threats could get overwhelmed - but it also had a nice little volume knob so you could turn it down and just glance at the scope to see who was lining up to shoot you next. So I have my doubts about that story other than it makes for a great "No **** there I was, flat on my back over Hanoi, out of airspeed and ideas" war story.

Current fighters have a multitude of systems that pretty much show you everything that is flying around you, and if the pilot is wearing one of the newer helmets, all he does is turn his head and any nearby traffic is highlighted on his visor. 5 years from now I hope to have the same thing in my glider... :^)

Kirk
66

Kirk
66

[K m]

On Sunday, May 6, 2018 at 8:06:32 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> Research shows that even highly trained professional pilots carrying passengers ignore alarms.

Clint,
Be careful with stories like this. These stories are practically hoaxes in the sense that they have omitted pertinent facts for the interest of sensationalism. That said, it is important to understand and use the safety equipment installed in your glider or airplane.
Kirk

[K m]

On Monday, May 7, 2018 at 6:50:41 AM UTC-7, wrote:
Recall hearing that combat pilots in Vietnam would shut off all of their enemy radar/SAM missile warnings. relying on their eyes and radio calls from fellow pilots the electronic warnings being a distraction from staying alive. Any jet pilots from that era that can confirm or correct?

Gregg,
Back in my day (WW2, the BIG one) we didn't have those pussy detection systems, SAMs, or Radars, but we did have Flak so thick you could walk on it. I knew, by the virtue of my eagle vision and quick reflexes I would made it home but I always wore my flak jacket. Just sayin...

[[email protected]]

Kirk

I don't think the New Scientist is a hoax website. There are many scientific studies as to why pilots ignore audio warnings:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/25029890/

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/1997/april/pilot/cockpit-warning-systems

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/240237161_Investigation_of_Alarm-Related_Accidents_and_Incidents_in_Aviation

https://www.google.co.za/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.aea.net/AvionicsNews/ANArchives/AudioWarnFeb03.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwj6nbXgl_TaAhWNHsAKHUKlAiI4ChAWMAJ6BAgGE AE&usg=AOvVaw0AvHcRFw0zs7pE11AB94Gy

I don't think any of these links can be accused as being hoxes - and yet all indicate that audio alarms and warnings are often ineffective.

I love gadgets - and will happily fill my glider with stuff. But I find the more sources of information I have - the less I focus on each one. And I am often happiest in a simple Bergfalke or Ka8 when there is the simplest instruments.
I then get to spend the time I was looking at all my fancy instruments rather looking at the incredible views and enjoying the simple pleasures of just staying up. And surprising - it's on those flights that I actually see more GA traffic.

Clinton.

[Clay[_5_]]

On Monday, May 7, 2018 at 2:13:50 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> Kirk
>
> I don't think the New Scientist is a hoax website. There are many scientific studies as to why pilots ignore audio warnings:
>
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/25029890/
>
> https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/1997/april/pilot/cockpit-warning-systems
>
> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/240237161_Investigation_of_Alarm-Related_Accidents_and_Incidents_in_Aviation
>
> https://www.google.co.za/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.aea.net/AvionicsNews/ANArchives/AudioWarnFeb03.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwj6nbXgl_TaAhWNHsAKHUKlAiI4ChAWMAJ6BAgGE AE&usg=AOvVaw0AvHcRFw0zs7pE11AB94Gy
>
> I don't think any of these links can be accused as being hoxes - and yet all indicate that audio alarms and warnings are often ineffective.
>
> I love gadgets - and will happily fill my glider with stuff. But I find the more sources of information I have - the less I focus on each one. And I am often happiest in a simple Bergfalke or Ka8 when there is the simplest instruments.
> I then get to spend the time I was looking at all my fancy instruments rather looking at the incredible views and enjoying the simple pleasures of just staying up. And surprising - it's on those flights that I actually see more GA traffic.
>
> Clinton.

Nice articles but in a glider you don't have a smoke in the lavatory alarm, etc., to contend with. Other than Flarm, what other alarms are there in a glider? And the Flarm warning changes as the threat gets more severe. I can't imagine anyone ignoring the max threat level warning it puts out (ask me how I know). Further, there is no head down time required to assess and respond to the threat, the audio is all you need. Evan and Kirk are right on here, IMO.

[K m]

On Monday, May 7, 2018 at 11:13:50 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> Kirk
>
> I don't think the New Scientist is a hoax website. There are many scientific studies as to why pilots ignore audio warnings:

Clinton,
I did not mean to accuse New Scientist of perpetrating a hoax. What I meant was, with spurious reporting they are engaging in Hoax-like tactics. You are making a grievous mistake by linking to these old (In one case decades old) articles. The training at airlines is light years ahead of where it was when these stories were written. Never say never but the chances of a crew ignoring or misinterpreting a warning is vastly diminished with on going improvements in training. This does bring up a good point that without proper usage the benefits of safety equipment is marginalized.

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

Ya know, sometimes I agree with you, sometimes I really don't.

In this case seems like an OK to throw some thoughts out there, not really agreeing/disagreeing with you.

I have a few decades in facilities/plant maintenance.
This includes building system management as well as alarms (HVAC, water pressure, compressed air, etc.).
It also includes 15+ years with UPS battery management systems and alarms.

While an engineer may want tight limits, too tight may trigger many alarms. This gets the users into, "it's a stupid alarm, ignore it". Worse if they either don't understand the data or the negative impact of the data.

More than once with UPS batteries, I and a sales guy would be called into a site. The question was, "we spent all this money on battery monitoring, why did we drop the data floor?!?!".

I could look at data and say, "well, for 6 months our system was saying you had issues. They were ignored, then you had a major power event and the system and redundant systems fell....".

OK, take this post out of a niche discussion, make it more "normal".

You buy some cars, they have some warning lights. You likely have a battery light, a brake light (could be low fluid, could be the E-brake is on), an oil light and a temp light.
For those of us that may money working on cars, these are called idiot lights. By the time the light comes on, something bad has already happened. No real forewarning.
Why? They only tell the mechanic what system failed and stopped the car.
On the other hand, maybe your model had gauges or you added your own.
Now you can see a trend to a bad outcome.
Now, you can still choose to ignore the impending bad outcome, but it is a choice.

How does this relate to the discussion?
Well, with proper training and use, eyeballs do a fair job, but not perfect. Likely a bit better than "idiot lights", but not perfect.
Flarm, transponder, whatever.....is more like gauges, still not perfect, but better than eyeballs alone. If you choose to ignore the info, it may still be a bad outcome.

Kirk seemed to think I was against any type of collision avoidance (in another thread), I am not.
Your location can raise or lower the need, but it is better to have if possible.
As I stated in the other thread, most private gliders I fly have some system. I like having more info. Flarm is good as it is more specific to close quarters flying like a thermal.
Asking our club to equip all club aircraft is another matter. If I could afford to just buy it for each club ship, but I can't afford that.
What we have done is try to impart on pilots the potential dangers and push for looking as well as maintaining FAA cloud clearances. This is about on par with idiot lights.

[Scott Williams]

Lots of passion on this topic, Lot's more knowledge out there than I have.
Does anyone have a reasonable guess as to the percentage of U.S. gliders that have flarm? transponders? or both? For that matter, Radio's, oxygen, etc?

Is there anyone willing to admit the adoption of flarm in the U.S. 'could' be considered a failure, (at least compared to Europe), and in the future represent a waste of money by the pilots that bought in? and, maybe some negative emotion towards those who didn't?

Will the 2020 change in
the transponder/ADSB situation prove to be the system to install?

On a lighter note this reminds me a lot of some discussions I remember about VHS vs BETA tape formats. I'll remind everyone that the technically superior format lost out to the cheaper and inferior technology.

Not meaning to step on toes, Just wondering?

Scott W.

[kirk.stant]

On Monday, May 7, 2018 at 3:47:44 PM UTC-5, Scott Williams wrote:
> Lots of passion on this topic, Lot's more knowledge out there than I have..
> Does anyone have a reasonable guess as to the percentage of U.S. gliders that have flarm? transponders? or both? For that matter, Radio's, oxygen, etc?
>
> Is there anyone willing to admit the adoption of flarm in the U.S. 'could' be considered a failure, (at least compared to Europe), and in the future represent a waste of money by the pilots that bought in? and, maybe some negative emotion towards those who didn't?
>
> Will the 2020 change in
> the transponder/ADSB situation prove to be the system to install?
>
> On a lighter note this reminds me a lot of some discussions I remember about VHS vs BETA tape formats. I'll remind everyone that the technically superior format lost out to the cheaper and inferior technology.
>
> Not meaning to step on toes, Just wondering?
>
> Scott W.

Passion? Yeah, kinda!

IMO, Flarm and ADS-B are not really competitors, they broadly complement each other, with a lot of overlap, and a lot of unique features. Best solution (cost no object) is ADS-B OUT (using Mode S to get up high out West) and dual mode IN (to get the freebies: WX, etc) plus PowerFLARM for racing and serious XC with your buddies. PF freebies are an IGC logger and GPS for your gliding nav stuff.

But all that ain't cheap! And right now, the problem is that it's hard to integrate the two systems, so you end up with multiple displays and little data correlation/fusion. That should be changing with ADS-B (mode S) being mandatory in Europe.

As far as 2020: If you don't have a transponder now and don't plan to get one, the ADS-B mandate doesn't really affect you - you don't HAVE to get it. But in many places it sure is smart to have a transponder; so those gliders will probably upgrade to ADS-B out (pretty cheap for Experimental).

Then there is always the problem of where to put the darn Bluray player in the cockpit...

Kirk
66

[2G]

On Monday, May 7, 2018 at 8:15:53 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
> On Monday, May 7, 2018 at 12:36:16 AM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
> > On Sunday, May 6, 2018 at 7:38:18 PM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
> >
> > Hmmm, are you from the FAA? So, it is YOUR sky, is it? You should take a Dale Carnegie course, "How to Win Friends and Influence People." You can get it for free:
> > http://images.kw.com/docs/2/1/2/212345/1285134779158_htwfaip.pdf
>
> Yes, it IS my sky - and yours too. Unfortunately, it's also "Gregg.."'s sky.
>
> And I don't need to win friends, I've got plenty of them - intelligent, open minded people - unlike trolls like Gregg..
>
> If it sounds like I have no patience for fools and idiots - then I'm getting my point across absolutely dead on.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Kirk
> 66

Some day you may be mature enough to recognize the error of your ways, but not today.

Tom

[kirk.stant]

On Monday, May 7, 2018 at 7:22:55 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
> On Monday, May 7, 2018 at 8:15:53 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
> > On Monday, May 7, 2018 at 12:36:16 AM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
> > > On Sunday, May 6, 2018 at 7:38:18 PM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
> > >
> > > Hmmm, are you from the FAA? So, it is YOUR sky, is it? You should take a Dale Carnegie course, "How to Win Friends and Influence People." You can get it for free:
> > > http://images.kw.com/docs/2/1/2/212345/1285134779158_htwfaip.pdf
> >
> > Yes, it IS my sky - and yours too. Unfortunately, it's also "Gregg.."'s sky.
> >
> > And I don't need to win friends, I've got plenty of them - intelligent, open minded people - unlike trolls like Gregg..
> >
> > If it sounds like I have no patience for fools and idiots - then I'm getting my point across absolutely dead on.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Kirk
> > 66
>
> Some day you may be mature enough to recognize the error of your ways, but not today.
>
> Tom

God I hope not!!!

Look up "Pompous Ass" - we probably both fit the description ;^)

Kirk
66

[2G]

On Tuesday, May 8, 2018 at 6:02:12 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
> On Monday, May 7, 2018 at 7:22:55 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
> > On Monday, May 7, 2018 at 8:15:53 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
> > > On Monday, May 7, 2018 at 12:36:16 AM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, May 6, 2018 at 7:38:18 PM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hmmm, are you from the FAA? So, it is YOUR sky, is it? You should take a Dale Carnegie course, "How to Win Friends and Influence People." You can get it for free:
> > > > http://images.kw.com/docs/2/1/2/212345/1285134779158_htwfaip.pdf
> > >
> > > Yes, it IS my sky - and yours too. Unfortunately, it's also "Gregg.."'s sky.
> > >
> > > And I don't need to win friends, I've got plenty of them - intelligent, open minded people - unlike trolls like Gregg..
> > >
> > > If it sounds like I have no patience for fools and idiots - then I'm getting my point across absolutely dead on.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > >
> > > Kirk
> > > 66
> >
> > Some day you may be mature enough to recognize the error of your ways, but not today.
> >
> > Tom
>
> God I hope not!!!
>
> Look up "Pompous Ass" - we probably both fit the description ;^)
>
> Kirk
> 66

Perhaps, but the subject was how to influence people. Calling them fools, idiots or full of **** is not likely to win any converts.

Tom

[kirk.stant]

On Wednesday, May 9, 2018 at 12:29:07 AM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 8, 2018 at 6:02:12 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
> > On Monday, May 7, 2018 at 7:22:55 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
> > > On Monday, May 7, 2018 at 8:15:53 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
> > > > On Monday, May 7, 2018 at 12:36:16 AM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
> > > > > On Sunday, May 6, 2018 at 7:38:18 PM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hmmm, are you from the FAA? So, it is YOUR sky, is it? You should take a Dale Carnegie course, "How to Win Friends and Influence People." You can get it for free:
> > > > > http://images.kw.com/docs/2/1/2/212345/1285134779158_htwfaip.pdf
> > > >
> > > > Yes, it IS my sky - and yours too. Unfortunately, it's also "Gregg.."'s sky.
> > > >
> > > > And I don't need to win friends, I've got plenty of them - intelligent, open minded people - unlike trolls like Gregg..
> > > >
> > > > If it sounds like I have no patience for fools and idiots - then I'm getting my point across absolutely dead on.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > >
> > > > Kirk
> > > > 66
> > >
> > > Some day you may be mature enough to recognize the error of your ways, but not today.
> > >
> > > Tom
> >
> > God I hope not!!!
> >
> > Look up "Pompous Ass" - we probably both fit the description ;^)
> >
> > Kirk
> > 66
>
> Perhaps, but the subject was how to influence people. Calling them fools, idiots or full of **** is not likely to win any converts.
>
> Tom

True, but you assume that I'm trying to win converts. False assumption in this case, as it would be a waste of time!

Kirk

[[email protected]]

Someone once told me that I could catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

But why waste honey on flies?

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, May 9, 2018 at 8:57:31 AM UTC-4, kirk.stant wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 9, 2018 at 12:29:07 AM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
> > On Tuesday, May 8, 2018 at 6:02:12 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
> > > On Monday, May 7, 2018 at 7:22:55 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
> > > > On Monday, May 7, 2018 at 8:15:53 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
> > > > > On Monday, May 7, 2018 at 12:36:16 AM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
> > > > > > On Sunday, May 6, 2018 at 7:38:18 PM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hmmm, are you from the FAA? So, it is YOUR sky, is it? You should take a Dale Carnegie course, "How to Win Friends and Influence People." You can get it for free:
> > > > > > http://images.kw.com/docs/2/1/2/212345/1285134779158_htwfaip.pdf
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes, it IS my sky - and yours too. Unfortunately, it's also "Gregg.."'s sky.
> > > > >
> > > > > And I don't need to win friends, I've got plenty of them - intelligent, open minded people - unlike trolls like Gregg..
> > > > >
> > > > > If it sounds like I have no patience for fools and idiots - then I'm getting my point across absolutely dead on.
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers,
> > > > >
> > > > > Kirk
> > > > > 66
> > > >
> > > > Some day you may be mature enough to recognize the error of your ways, but not today.
> > > >
> > > > Tom
> > >
> > > God I hope not!!!
> > >
> > > Look up "Pompous Ass" - we probably both fit the description ;^)
> > >
> > > Kirk
> > > 66
> >
> > Perhaps, but the subject was how to influence people. Calling them fools, idiots or full of **** is not likely to win any converts.
> >
> > Tom
>
> True, but you assume that I'm trying to win converts. False assumption in this case, as it would be a waste of time!
>
> Kirk

"Sometimes you just gotta call bullsh@*#". The main theme of Ken Kesey's speech to introduce Jerry Brown during Brown's run for President in the early 90's. Ken did so with a bottle of Vodka in hand, seemed to punctuate his message, but that might just be me. Sometimes it needs to happen, depending on your perspective. Seems at least fair when someone claims Flarm is more harmful than helpful. I don't know how your could ever state that with such confidence.

[2G]

On Wednesday, May 9, 2018 at 5:57:31 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 9, 2018 at 12:29:07 AM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
> > On Tuesday, May 8, 2018 at 6:02:12 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
> > > On Monday, May 7, 2018 at 7:22:55 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
> > > > On Monday, May 7, 2018 at 8:15:53 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
> > > > > On Monday, May 7, 2018 at 12:36:16 AM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
> > > > > > On Sunday, May 6, 2018 at 7:38:18 PM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hmmm, are you from the FAA? So, it is YOUR sky, is it? You should take a Dale Carnegie course, "How to Win Friends and Influence People." You can get it for free:
> > > > > > http://images.kw.com/docs/2/1/2/212345/1285134779158_htwfaip.pdf
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes, it IS my sky - and yours too. Unfortunately, it's also "Gregg.."'s sky.
> > > > >
> > > > > And I don't need to win friends, I've got plenty of them - intelligent, open minded people - unlike trolls like Gregg..
> > > > >
> > > > > If it sounds like I have no patience for fools and idiots - then I'm getting my point across absolutely dead on.
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers,
> > > > >
> > > > > Kirk
> > > > > 66
> > > >
> > > > Some day you may be mature enough to recognize the error of your ways, but not today.
> > > >
> > > > Tom
> > >
> > > God I hope not!!!
> > >
> > > Look up "Pompous Ass" - we probably both fit the description ;^)
> > >
> > > Kirk
> > > 66
> >
> > Perhaps, but the subject was how to influence people. Calling them fools, idiots or full of **** is not likely to win any converts.
> >
> > Tom
>
> True, but you assume that I'm trying to win converts. False assumption in this case, as it would be a waste of time!
>
> Kirk

That's the maturity part: driving fellow pilots away just makes the situation worse. And I happen to agree with you - I just spent a fair amount of change on an ATD-57.

Tom