Recovery by Spot

[Tango Eight]

Just back from a long weekend at Mifflin...

We had a glider land at the big field near the South end of Raystown ridge Sunday about 1930 local (30 minutes before sunset). His was the last glider flying, no one heard his landing call on 123.3. There is no cell coverage and no available land line phone for several miles around this remote field. At sunset, we noticed we were short one glider. We found the pilot by consulting his spot page, noted multiple pings in same location and an "Okay" msg. Access to this field is difficult, includes a locked gate, so authorities were involved. They got the pilot out late evening, glider recovered on Monday. Despite our assurances that the pilot was okay, the cav was sent complete with fire and emergency medical support.

Coincidentally, this pilot and I were discussing our lack of satisfaction with Spot the evening before. Both of us planned not to renew our subscriptions.

This incident underscores the obvious problems with cell tracking, PLBs (only communicates with .gov functionaries, provides no data, only a non-specific call for emergency help), Spot (one way comm without confirmation, only sends canned msgs to pre-arranged email and txt via email, many potential points of failure, toy like reliability). Inreach might be better? Perhaps. If your device hasn't been bricked by a software "update".

It's probable in this specific incident that we'd have figured things out (albeit with significant uncertainty) from a cell based tracking device. I expect the flight track, time of day and lack of other communication would have made the Raystown field the first place we'd look, but having a firm location and okay msg was pretty huge here. I'm not rethinking any of my misgivings about Spot, but in this specific instance it was a big help.

best regards,
Evan Ludeman / T8

[Maxx Ruff[_2_]]

At 02:47 02 May 2018, Tango Eight wrote:
>Just back from a long weekend at Mifflin...
>.....................
We had a glider land at the big field near the South end of Raystown
ridge............There is no cell coverage............
>
>

Evan,

Curious if the pilot considered using the "emergency calls only" function
of
his phone as this might have accessed the AT&T Mobility network which is
shown as having good coverage in the Raystown Lake / Mill creek area
https://www.nperf.com/en/map/US/5206379.Pittsburgh/2420.ATT-
Mobility/signal/?
ll=40.31353734645162&lg=-78.18030219742496&zoom=10

Max

[Maxx Ruff[_2_]]

At 02:47 02 May 2018, Tango Eight wrote:
>Just back from a long weekend at Mifflin...
>.....................
We had a glider land at the big field near the South end of Raystown
ridge............There is no cell coverage............
>
>

Evan,

Curious if the pilot considered using the "emergency calls only" function
of
his phone as this might have accessed the AT&T Mobility network which is
shown as having good coverage in the Raystown Lake / Mill creek area
https://www.nperf.com/en/map/US/5206379.Pittsburgh/2420.ATT-
Mobility/signal/?
ll=40.31353734645162&lg=-78.18030219742496&zoom=10

Max

[FranCP]

El martes, 1 de mayo de 2018, 23:47:21 (UTC-3), Tango Eight escribió:
> Just back from a long weekend at Mifflin...
>
> We had a glider land at the big field near the South end of Raystown ridge Sunday about 1930 local (30 minutes before sunset). His was the last glider flying, no one heard his landing call on 123.3. There is no cell coverage and no available land line phone for several miles around this remote field. At sunset, we noticed we were short one glider. We found the pilot by consulting his spot page, noted multiple pings in same location and an "Okay" msg. Access to this field is difficult, includes a locked gate, so authorities were involved. They got the pilot out late evening, glider recovered on Monday. Despite our assurances that the pilot was okay, the cav was sent complete with fire and emergency medical support.
>
> Coincidentally, this pilot and I were discussing our lack of satisfaction with Spot the evening before. Both of us planned not to renew our subscriptions.
>
> This incident underscores the obvious problems with cell tracking, PLBs (only communicates with .gov functionaries, provides no data, only a non-specific call for emergency help), Spot (one way comm without confirmation, only sends canned msgs to pre-arranged email and txt via email, many potential points of failure, toy like reliability). Inreach might be better? Perhaps. If your device hasn't been bricked by a software "update".
>
> It's probable in this specific incident that we'd have figured things out (albeit with significant uncertainty) from a cell based tracking device. I expect the flight track, time of day and lack of other communication would have made the Raystown field the first place we'd look, but having a firm location and okay msg was pretty huge here. I'm not rethinking any of my misgivings about Spot, but in this specific instance it was a big help.
>
> best regards,
> Evan Ludeman / T8

Hi Evan,

We fly in a VERY remote area, central Chilean Andes and coast mtns, mostly covered by fields that you don't want to land, :)... at least in my club, the use of SPOT is mandatory for XC flights. Club gliders have their own assigned SPOT, they have standarized messages for each button which are written on every glider's checklist in case of use, and their track is shown in the same webpage.

I agree that SPOT is not reliable at all (mostly during constant tracking), but sometimes we have absolutely no cel coverage, so it's a very good option. Just carry spare batteries ALWAYS, and make sure that the device is facing up to the clear sky while sending the message. If you're looking for a tracking system, probably FLARM, Mode S TPDR, or a cellphone based system would be better, IF YOU HAVE COVERAGE.

At least my opinion is that SPOT implementation in our club has been a success. Every outlanded glider for the last years has been spotted and supported inmediately, regardless cel coverage. Although, thanks god we haven't used the SOS button yet.

Francisco
Club de Planeadores de ValparaÃ*so

[RR]

On the glider retrieve with the pilot the next day we found that there was excellent coverage with Verizon. You could see the tower.

I was unaware that you could use an emergency call function to get out of network. I have been at the southern part of the Everglades with no verizon coverage (there is some attention coverage) and had no roaming option. Any idea how to start an emergency call. From a lock screen?

RR

[JS[_5_]]

Great stuff (but he missed the best day)
On the lock screen of the phone, if there is a message: "emergency calls only" you can get out to the authorities. But we generally don't want them involved in a retrieve.
InReach is a far superior method of communication than (certainly the present) SPOT. Before getting stuck in the middle of nowhere, install the Earthmate app and use it to connect via bluetooth to the InReach. Texts can then be sent to anyone using the touch keyboard of the phone. No, voice to text won't work as you're out of range.
My InReach is in a container attached to a hard point on the parachute harness. Both made by a parachute rigger.
Jim

[Dan Marotta]

Take a look at Republic Wireless.Â* It works on all carriers and no
roaming charges.Â* Not affiliated, just a long-time happy customer.

On 5/2/2018 6:10 AM, RR wrote:
> On the glider retrieve with the pilot the next day we found that there was excellent coverage with Verizon. You could see the tower.
>
> I was unaware that you could use an emergency call function to get out of network. I have been at the southern part of the Everglades with no verizon coverage (there is some attention coverage) and had no roaming option. Any idea how to start an emergency call. From a lock screen?
>
> RR
>

--
Dan, 5J

[Ron Gleason]

On Tuesday, 1 May 2018 20:47:21 UTC-6, Tango Eight wrote:
> Just back from a long weekend at Mifflin...
>
> We had a glider land at the big field near the South end of Raystown ridge Sunday about 1930 local (30 minutes before sunset). His was the last glider flying, no one heard his landing call on 123.3. There is no cell coverage and no available land line phone for several miles around this remote field. At sunset, we noticed we were short one glider. We found the pilot by consulting his spot page, noted multiple pings in same location and an "Okay" msg. Access to this field is difficult, includes a locked gate, so authorities were involved. They got the pilot out late evening, glider recovered on Monday. Despite our assurances that the pilot was okay, the cav was sent complete with fire and emergency medical support.
>
> Coincidentally, this pilot and I were discussing our lack of satisfaction with Spot the evening before. Both of us planned not to renew our subscriptions.
>
> This incident underscores the obvious problems with cell tracking, PLBs (only communicates with .gov functionaries, provides no data, only a non-specific call for emergency help), Spot (one way comm without confirmation, only sends canned msgs to pre-arranged email and txt via email, many potential points of failure, toy like reliability). Inreach might be better? Perhaps. If your device hasn't been bricked by a software "update".
>
> It's probable in this specific incident that we'd have figured things out (albeit with significant uncertainty) from a cell based tracking device. I expect the flight track, time of day and lack of other communication would have made the Raystown field the first place we'd look, but having a firm location and okay msg was pretty huge here. I'm not rethinking any of my misgivings about Spot, but in this specific instance it was a big help.
>
> best regards,
> Evan Ludeman / T8

Back in 2012 at the 15M Nationals at Mifflin, Evan you were flying in this contest, a glider went into the trees during the task. The pilot activated the SPOT SOS and the crew came into the club house with the message(s) on their phone. The glider pilot was unable to try his cell phone due to losing their reading glasses during the crash. We were mapping the location and trying to determine which county agency to contact. When the correct county agency was contacted they had received a 911 call as the pilot had recovered the glasses and accessed cell phone.

However the location determined by triangulating the cell phone was many many miles off, I do not remember exact number but greater than 10 miles. One of the tow planes was sent out with a spotter and verified the location and directed emergency folks to the scene. Te county agency was skeptical about the coordinates we had from SPOT as they were unfamiliar with the devices.

Yes I will always fly with a satellite based tracker and notification device

[Dirk_PW[_2_]]

I'd like to ask a purely hypothetical question, applied to this scenario... Had this pilot been equipped with ADS-B "out" and no SPOT or other alternate means of satellite communication/alerting methodologies, what would have been the sequence of events for finding him? Let's make an assumption that he was being tracked by ATC at some (or most) of the flight. Would it have helped or not? Would it have been better/easier to find him? If so with what tools?

Is ADS-B 'out' a reasonable alternative to SPOT or is it just riddled with too many limitations (perhaps your mileage will vary depending on the ATC coverage in your area and the tools for tracking)?

[Wojciech Ścigała]

Gents,

You forgot about one more device we all have installed: VHF radio. Tune
in 121.5 MHZ and ask for a message relay. All airliners monitor 121,500
so the "coverage" is very good.

Wojciech

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

Assuming you don't break the tail boom. Typically, that also breaks any wires or cables through that area which also includes.....drum roll please......tail mounted radio antennas.

The more options you have the better regardless of the methodology or technology.

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

Many times in crashes, batteries become disconnected so things like radios do not work. This is why Spot/InReach are great as they have their own power source and leave a bread crumb trail.


On Wednesday, May 2, 2018 at 12:12:31 PM UTC-7, Wojciech Ścigała wrote:
> Gents,
>
> You forgot about one more device we all have installed: VHF radio. Tune
> in 121.5 MHZ and ask for a message relay. All airliners monitor 121,500
> so the "coverage" is very good.
>
> Wojciech

[Dan Marotta]

Thanks for that reminder!

On 5/2/2018 1:12 PM, Wojciech Ścigała wrote:
> Gents,
>
> You forgot about one more device we all have installed: VHF radio.
> Tune in 121.5 MHZ and ask for a message relay. All airliners monitor
> 121,500 so the "coverage" is very good.
>
> Wojciech

--
Dan, 5J

[2G]

On Wednesday, May 2, 2018 at 12:21:43 PM UTC-7, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> Many times in crashes, batteries become disconnected so things like radios do not work. This is why Spot/InReach are great as they have their own power source and leave a bread crumb trail.
>
>
> On Wednesday, May 2, 2018 at 12:12:31 PM UTC-7, Wojciech Ścigała wrote:
> > Gents,
> >
> > You forgot about one more device we all have installed: VHF radio. Tune
> > in 121.5 MHZ and ask for a message relay. All airliners monitor 121,500
> > so the "coverage" is very good.
> >
> > Wojciech

This is why I carry a backup emergency radio. Anyone who flies cross-country should, too. If you have to walk out, you have a radio to take with you. And if your onboard radio dies in flight, you've got a backup. This is pretty routine for IFR pilots.

Tom

[bumper[_4_]]

On Wednesday, May 2, 2018 at 12:12:31 PM UTC-7, Wojciech Ścigała wrote:
> Gents,
>
> You forgot about one more device we all have installed: VHF radio. Tune
> in 121.5 MHZ and ask for a message relay. All airliners monitor 121,500
> so the "coverage" is very good.
>
> Wojciech

That worked for me when I spotted a "body" lying face down in Nevada's Black Rock Desert a dozen years back. Landed my Husky and found the guy was still alive! Got on 121.5 and had they were scrambling to help! Airliner relayed call for air ambulance to Reno Approach. Another Husky in Oregon heard the traffic as well and asked on another forum who was that Husky who rescued the guy in the desert :c)

I used the aircraft radio, I'm sure a handheld would have worked also, though the rubber ducky antenna receives far better than it transmits, plus you aircraft radio may be putting our over 10 watts and the handheld is probably less than 1. Still worth having if your tail boom is broken.

[Darryl Ramm]

On Tuesday, May 1, 2018 at 7:47:21 PM UTC-7, Tango Eight wrote:
> Just back from a long weekend at Mifflin...
>
> We had a glider land at the big field near the South end of Raystown ridge Sunday about 1930 local (30 minutes before sunset). His was the last glider flying, no one heard his landing call on 123.3. There is no cell coverage and no available land line phone for several miles around this remote field. At sunset, we noticed we were short one glider. We found the pilot by consulting his spot page, noted multiple pings in same location and an "Okay" msg. Access to this field is difficult, includes a locked gate, so authorities were involved. They got the pilot out late evening, glider recovered on Monday. Despite our assurances that the pilot was okay, the cav was sent complete with fire and emergency medical support.
>
> Coincidentally, this pilot and I were discussing our lack of satisfaction with Spot the evening before. Both of us planned not to renew our subscriptions.
>
> This incident underscores the obvious problems with cell tracking, PLBs (only communicates with .gov functionaries, provides no data, only a non-specific call for emergency help), Spot (one way comm without confirmation, only sends canned msgs to pre-arranged email and txt via email, many potential points of failure, toy like reliability). Inreach might be better? Perhaps. If your device hasn't been bricked by a software "update".
>
> It's probable in this specific incident that we'd have figured things out (albeit with significant uncertainty) from a cell based tracking device. I expect the flight track, time of day and lack of other communication would have made the Raystown field the first place we'd look, but having a firm location and okay msg was pretty huge here. I'm not rethinking any of my misgivings about Spot, but in this specific instance it was a big help.
>
> best regards,
> Evan Ludeman / T8

Glad the pilot was retrieved OK. Was somebody actually aware ahead of time the SPOT was potentially going to be used to order up a retrieve? And an "OK" the understood message for that?

Possibly Instead of sending out "OK" it would have been better to have prepared custom message with one saying they are not injured and need a retrieve and having that go directly to the crews/club email. (only one custom message is a limit... you can't ask for example for an air retrieve vs ground retrieve).

But even better, just ditch SPOT. InReach is so much better, and the two way messaging is great. Very flexible and clear, like: "Landed OK, pls. send ground retrieve, cash in trailer, bring Lagunitas IPA, babyback ribs, coleslaw" :-) (ah reminds me of a retrieve from Milford back to Parowan, what a crew, and they did not actually need fancy messages to know to bring beer and great BBQ).

But a reminder there is to load a contacts database in the InReach... relying on looking up contacts on your phone, even if it is still with you, and working, is not a great idea. The rechargeable batteries in the current Garmin InReach units seem great but I carry a USB charger cable to power the InReach from the ships battery just in case I've forgotten to recharge it fully before flying. (And I also have a 406 MHz PLB on my parachute, so covered lots of ways).

[Darryl Ramm]

BTW new Garmin inReach Mini: https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/p/592606/pn/010-01879-00# Makes it easier to stash on a parachute harness etc.

[2G]

On Wednesday, May 2, 2018 at 8:27:25 PM UTC-7, bumper wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 2, 2018 at 12:12:31 PM UTC-7, Wojciech Ścigała wrote:
> > Gents,
> >
> > You forgot about one more device we all have installed: VHF radio. Tune
> > in 121.5 MHZ and ask for a message relay. All airliners monitor 121,500
> > so the "coverage" is very good.
> >
> > Wojciech
>
> That worked for me when I spotted a "body" lying face down in Nevada's Black Rock Desert a dozen years back. Landed my Husky and found the guy was still alive! Got on 121.5 and had they were scrambling to help! Airliner relayed call for air ambulance to Reno Approach. Another Husky in Oregon heard the traffic as well and asked on another forum who was that Husky who rescued the guy in the desert :c)
>
> I used the aircraft radio, I'm sure a handheld would have worked also, though the rubber ducky antenna receives far better than it transmits, plus you aircraft radio may be putting our over 10 watts and the handheld is probably less than 1. Still worth having if your tail boom is broken.

I checked several popular handhelds, and they are all 1.5 W carrier (they also use peak envelope power, PEP, but the carrier is what gets the job done). Rubber ducky antennas are crap, especially when you are close to the ground. It would be great if there were a telescoping 1/4 wave emergency antenna.

Tom

Tom

[2G]

On Thursday, May 3, 2018 at 4:30:39 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 2, 2018 at 8:27:25 PM UTC-7, bumper wrote:
> > On Wednesday, May 2, 2018 at 12:12:31 PM UTC-7, Wojciech Ścigała wrote:
> > > Gents,
> > >
> > > You forgot about one more device we all have installed: VHF radio. Tune
> > > in 121.5 MHZ and ask for a message relay. All airliners monitor 121,500
> > > so the "coverage" is very good.
> > >
> > > Wojciech
> >
> > That worked for me when I spotted a "body" lying face down in Nevada's Black Rock Desert a dozen years back. Landed my Husky and found the guy was still alive! Got on 121.5 and had they were scrambling to help! Airliner relayed call for air ambulance to Reno Approach. Another Husky in Oregon heard the traffic as well and asked on another forum who was that Husky who rescued the guy in the desert :c)
> >
> > I used the aircraft radio, I'm sure a handheld would have worked also, though the rubber ducky antenna receives far better than it transmits, plus you aircraft radio may be putting our over 10 watts and the handheld is probably less than 1. Still worth having if your tail boom is broken.
>
> I checked several popular handhelds, and they are all 1.5 W carrier (they also use peak envelope power, PEP, but the carrier is what gets the job done). Rubber ducky antennas are crap, especially when you are close to the ground. It would be great if there were a telescoping 1/4 wave emergency antenna.
>
> Tom

Well, I just checked, and there IS such a thing!

https://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=P6082B&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cse&utm_term=p6082b&gclid=Cj0KCQjw5qrXBRC3ARIsAJq3bwpjqHeyoj_1G-w60hXlWoxaJ6o9uvxt8tAbXkXPyDaqJPoToFSrsJEaAjA_EALw _wcB

[Dan Marotta]

Careful, that's a marine band antenna and you'll get a much higher VSWR
in the aviation band unless you don't extend it to its full length and
use it as a quarter wave antenna, about 22 1/2 inches.

This one will extend to 47.5 inches so it would make a great half wave
antenna (44 inches):
https://www.amazon.com/Anteenna-TW-999BNC-20-1300MHz-connector-Frequency/dp/B075QCJM6S/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1525442191&sr=8-1&keywords=scanner+antenna+bnc

On 5/3/2018 5:32 PM, 2G wrote:
> On Thursday, May 3, 2018 at 4:30:39 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
>> On Wednesday, May 2, 2018 at 8:27:25 PM UTC-7, bumper wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, May 2, 2018 at 12:12:31 PM UTC-7, Wojciech Ścigała wrote:
>>>> Gents,
>>>>
>>>> You forgot about one more device we all have installed: VHF radio. Tune
>>>> in 121.5 MHZ and ask for a message relay. All airliners monitor 121,500
>>>> so the "coverage" is very good.
>>>>
>>>> Wojciech
>>> That worked for me when I spotted a "body" lying face down in Nevada's Black Rock Desert a dozen years back. Landed my Husky and found the guy was still alive! Got on 121.5 and had they were scrambling to help! Airliner relayed call for air ambulance to Reno Approach. Another Husky in Oregon heard the traffic as well and asked on another forum who was that Husky who rescued the guy in the desert :c)
>>>
>>> I used the aircraft radio, I'm sure a handheld would have worked also, though the rubber ducky antenna receives far better than it transmits, plus you aircraft radio may be putting our over 10 watts and the handheld is probably less than 1. Still worth having if your tail boom is broken.
>> I checked several popular handhelds, and they are all 1.5 W carrier (they also use peak envelope power, PEP, but the carrier is what gets the job done). Rubber ducky antennas are crap, especially when you are close to the ground. It would be great if there were a telescoping 1/4 wave emergency antenna.
>>
>> Tom
> Well, I just checked, and there IS such a thing!
>
> https://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=P6082B&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cse&utm_term=p6082b&gclid=Cj0KCQjw5qrXBRC3ARIsAJq3bwpjqHeyoj_1G-w60hXlWoxaJ6o9uvxt8tAbXkXPyDaqJPoToFSrsJEaAjA_EALw _wcB
>

--
Dan, 5J

[son_of_flubber]

On Wednesday, May 2, 2018 at 2:12:24 PM UTC-4, Dirk_PW wrote:
> Had this pilot been equipped with ADS-B "out" and no SPOT or other alternate means of satellite communication/alerting methodologies, what would have been the sequence of events for finding him? ...

> Is ADS-B 'out' a reasonable alternative to SPOT or is it just riddled with too many limitations ...

I don't have the complete answer to your question but https://flightaware.com/adsb/ uses a network of receivers to track ADS-out aircraft. Their coverage exceeds ATC coverage. You can track individual flights.

I think that it is better to have more than one way to be found.

BTW, does anyone know if FlightAware tracks SIL=1 TABS?

[[email protected]]

One can build a lightweight roll-up antenna that's way better than the rubber ducky. I made one out of some "twinlead" (300 ohm flat cable that used to be popular for TV antennas, now seems getting hard to find), plus a piece of thin coax with BNC connector. Consult ham radio sources for "2 meter" designs and multiply all the lengths by 145/123.

[2G]

On Friday, May 4, 2018 at 7:03:04 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Careful, that's a marine band antenna and you'll get a much higher VSWR
> in the aviation band unless you don't extend it to its full length and
> use it as a quarter wave antenna, about 22 1/2 inches.
>
> This one will extend to 47.5 inches so it would make a great half wave
> antenna (44 inches):
> https://www.amazon.com/Anteenna-TW-999BNC-20-1300MHz-connector-Frequency/dp/B075QCJM6S/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1525442191&sr=8-1&keywords=scanner+antenna+bnc
>
> On 5/3/2018 5:32 PM, 2G wrote:
> > On Thursday, May 3, 2018 at 4:30:39 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> >> On Wednesday, May 2, 2018 at 8:27:25 PM UTC-7, bumper wrote:
> >>> On Wednesday, May 2, 2018 at 12:12:31 PM UTC-7, Wojciech Ścigała wrote:
> >>>> Gents,
> >>>>
> >>>> You forgot about one more device we all have installed: VHF radio. Tune
> >>>> in 121.5 MHZ and ask for a message relay. All airliners monitor 121,500
> >>>> so the "coverage" is very good.
> >>>>
> >>>> Wojciech
> >>> That worked for me when I spotted a "body" lying face down in Nevada's Black Rock Desert a dozen years back. Landed my Husky and found the guy was still alive! Got on 121.5 and had they were scrambling to help! Airliner relayed call for air ambulance to Reno Approach. Another Husky in Oregon heard the traffic as well and asked on another forum who was that Husky who rescued the guy in the desert :c)
> >>>
> >>> I used the aircraft radio, I'm sure a handheld would have worked also, though the rubber ducky antenna receives far better than it transmits, plus you aircraft radio may be putting our over 10 watts and the handheld is probably less than 1. Still worth having if your tail boom is broken.
> >> I checked several popular handhelds, and they are all 1.5 W carrier (they also use peak envelope power, PEP, but the carrier is what gets the job done). Rubber ducky antennas are crap, especially when you are close to the ground. It would be great if there were a telescoping 1/4 wave emergency antenna.
> >>
> >> Tom
> > Well, I just checked, and there IS such a thing!
> >
> > https://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=P6082B&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cse&utm_term=p6082b&gclid=Cj0KCQjw5qrXBRC3ARIsAJq3bwpjqHeyoj_1G-w60hXlWoxaJ6o9uvxt8tAbXkXPyDaqJPoToFSrsJEaAjA_EALw _wcB
> >
>
> --
> Dan, 5J

Thanks for the tip - the other antenna wasn't available anyway.

Tom