View Full Version : Iran and GPS etc
Jim White[_3_]
May 8th 18, 10:09 PM
I watch with despair as Trump tears up the Iran Nuclear Agreement.
However I wonder whether this is the same as trying to hold back
technology in gliding competition: no flight computer, no GPS, no
moving map, no Flarm display, no online weather, no nuclear bombs?
It is probably inevitable that belligerent regimes (including the US and
GB) will get these weapons and possibly use them.
Going to throw myself off Beachy Head
Jim
Dan Marotta
May 8th 18, 11:21 PM
Bye...!
On 5/8/2018 3:09 PM, Jim White wrote:
> I watch with despair as Trump tears up the Iran Nuclear Agreement.
> However I wonder whether this is the same as trying to hold back
> technology in gliding competition: no flight computer, no GPS, no
> moving map, no Flarm display, no online weather, no nuclear bombs?
>
> It is probably inevitable that belligerent regimes (including the US and
> GB) will get these weapons and possibly use them.
>
> Going to throw myself off Beachy Head
>
> Jim
>
--
Dan, 5J
Paul Agnew
May 8th 18, 11:30 PM
That is an Evel Knievel Snake River Canyon grade leap of logic to try to inject politics into our glider safety debate.
Alas, Evel didn't make it, either.
Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)
May 9th 18, 12:53 AM
Say what?!?!
[heavy sigh, shakes head......no clue on thread direction....]
Let this thread die. If you want to throw your ass off Beachy Head, knock yourself out. I personally would not be presumptuous enough to comment on the comedy in a foreign country unless I was actually paying taxes there, and thus have an actual right to bitch. MYOB, ******.
On Tuesday, May 8, 2018 at 2:15:06 PM UTC-7, Jim White wrote:
> I watch with despair as Trump tears up the Iran Nuclear Agreement.
> However I wonder whether this is the same as trying to hold back
> technology in gliding competition: no flight computer, no GPS, no
> moving map, no Flarm display, no online weather, no nuclear bombs?
>
> It is probably inevitable that belligerent regimes (including the US and
> GB) will get these weapons and possibly use them.
>
> Going to throw myself off Beachy Head
>
> Jim
Personally, I cheered, but what does that have to do with soaring?
Tom
Personally, to cheer such utter stupidity says a lot about you. Personally.
Trumo is ruining the US reputation world wide.
Making the US grate again.
On Thursday, May 10, 2018 at 6:05:30 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> Personally, to cheer such utter stupidity says a lot about you. Personally.
> Trumo is ruining the US reputation world wide.
> Making the US grate again.
Americans don't care what your ****ant country thinks of us. Will your European Islamic Caliphate allow soaring?
Unfortunately - decisions that Trump makes do not just affect the US - but have a ripple effect on the rest of the world too. Just simple things like the sharp increase in oil price following his Iran announcement means my fuel price will go up next month - and I live in South Africa which has nothing to do with the spat with Iran.
Dan Marotta
May 10th 18, 03:48 PM
All this thread is going to do is raise blood pressures.Â* Why not take
it to some political rant site and get back to soaring?
On 5/10/2018 6:20 AM, wrote:
> Unfortunately - decisions that Trump makes do not just affect the US - but have a ripple effect on the rest of the world too. Just simple things like the sharp increase in oil price following his Iran announcement means my fuel price will go up next month - and I live in South Africa which has nothing to do with the spat with Iran.
--
Dan, 5J
John Foster
May 10th 18, 04:22 PM
On Thursday, May 10, 2018 at 8:48:35 AM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
> All this thread is going to do is raise blood pressures.Â* Why not take
> it to some political rant site and get back to soaring?
>
> On 5/10/2018 6:20 AM, wrote:
> > Unfortunately - decisions that Trump makes do not just affect the US - but have a ripple effect on the rest of the world too. Just simple things like the sharp increase in oil price following his Iran announcement means my fuel price will go up next month - and I live in South Africa which has nothing to do with the spat with Iran.
>
> --
> Dan, 5J
Here, here!!!
I have discovered that those that wring their hands over the miss-steps or faux-pas of Trump, tend to be disciples of the mainstream media (MSM). The MSM used to, for the most part, serve unbiased fact-based news. But since the 2016 US election cycle, have jumped in bed with whichever political party owns them. They all have an agenda. You can choose to believe them if you wish, but everything, EVERYTHING, they broadcast these days is to serve that agenda. The president could have a bowel movement, and they would somehow spin this to be the worst possible thing he could do, if they didn't like him.
To the original post, the original Iran nuclear deal was a bad one. Him ripping it up doesn't mean he doesn't want Iran to stop pursuing nukes. He believes there is a better way to achieve this result, than with that worthless piece of paper. To paraphrase an old saying: There are lies, damned lies, and then statistics. And then you have the news media.
John Foster
May 10th 18, 04:50 PM
On Thursday, May 10, 2018 at 8:48:35 AM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
> All this thread is going to do is raise blood pressures.Â* Why not take
> it to some political rant site and get back to soaring?
>
> On 5/10/2018 6:20 AM, wrote:
> > Unfortunately - decisions that Trump makes do not just affect the US - but have a ripple effect on the rest of the world too. Just simple things like the sharp increase in oil price following his Iran announcement means my fuel price will go up next month - and I live in South Africa which has nothing to do with the spat with Iran.
>
> --
> Dan, 5J
Here, here
Be careful what you believe from the news media. They all serve whichever political party owns them, and will only raise your blood pressure. No such thing as unbiased news anymore.
Because unfortunately rising fuel prices will affect my soaring. But I agree - this is not a political forum. But talking about conflict and GPS - remember the days during the Gulf War when they degraded the accuracy of the GPS system. You can imagine the mess ii would cause if that was tried now considering how reliant we are on the incredible accuracy and reliability of the system.
Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)
May 10th 18, 07:21 PM
Not commenting on this general thread.......
Not commenting on the sometimes GPS accuracy in the US.
Example......decades ago........seeing a track that went from Harris Hill to Europe and back.....in a few seconds. This while the glider and tracker were sitting on the grid at HHSC.......
I was there.
I saw the trace.
Pretty much NO WAY any government could cover that ground in that time.
I believe it was called, "military dithering" of the signal, because, government.
> Example......decades ago........seeing a track that went from Harris Hill to Europe and back.....in a few seconds. This while the glider and tracker were sitting on the grid at HHSC.......
>
> I believe it was called, "military dithering" of the signal, because, government.
I believe it was interference from the unshielded ignition in Charlie Sprat's van as he drove by to the gate... but hey, that's my theory.
Renny[_2_]
May 10th 18, 09:52 PM
On Thursday, May 10, 2018 at 12:21:16 PM UTC-6, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> Not commenting on this general thread.......
> Not commenting on the sometimes GPS accuracy in the US.
> Example......decades ago........seeing a track that went from Harris Hill to Europe and back.....in a few seconds. This while the glider and tracker were sitting on the grid at HHSC.......
> I was there.
> I saw the trace.
> Pretty much NO WAY any government could cover that ground in that time.
> I believe it was called, "military dithering" of the signal, because, government.
Charlie - We have seen that type of bizarre GPS trace in New Mexico on several occasions over the years. We had one logger trace a few years ago that had Howard Banks flying at hundreds of miles per hour to the SW and then back in a few seconds. Now, Howard always flew quite fast in his 27, but even for Howard, going supersonic was...well....unlikely. Being that we fly in New Mexico and given that Moriarty is not too far from Corona and Roswell (the crash site from 1947 is actually closer to Corona than Roswell) we usually figure it is just more alien interference (something we are quite used to), but it is possible that our friends at the White Sands Missile Range may have "something" to do with it.....maybe.....but.....I still think it is aliens....
Richard Pfiffner[_2_]
May 10th 18, 10:04 PM
On Thursday, May 10, 2018 at 1:52:54 PM UTC-7, Renny wrote:
> On Thursday, May 10, 2018 at 12:21:16 PM UTC-6, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> > Not commenting on this general thread.......
> > Not commenting on the sometimes GPS accuracy in the US.
> > Example......decades ago........seeing a track that went from Harris Hill to Europe and back.....in a few seconds. This while the glider and tracker were sitting on the grid at HHSC.......
> > I was there.
> > I saw the trace.
> > Pretty much NO WAY any government could cover that ground in that time.
> > I believe it was called, "military dithering" of the signal, because, government.
>
> Charlie - We have seen that type of bizarre GPS trace in New Mexico on several occasions over the years. We had one logger trace a few years ago that had Howard Banks flying at hundreds of miles per hour to the SW and then back in a few seconds. Now, Howard always flew quite fast in his 27, but even for Howard, going supersonic was...well....unlikely. Being that we fly in New Mexico and given that Moriarty is not too far from Corona and Roswell (the crash site from 1947 is actually closer to Corona than Roswell) we usually figure it is just more alien interference (something we are quite used to), but it is possible that our friends at the White Sands Missile Range may have "something" to do with it.....maybe.....but.....I still think it is aliens....
GPS is owned and operated by the U.S. Government as a national resource. DOD is the "steward" of GPS, and as such, is responsible to operate the system in accordance with the signal specification.
Dan Marotta
May 11th 18, 12:50 AM
Don't forget that GPS is a US military system.Â* It was not developed at
great tax payer expense just for the pleasure of a few glider pilots,
though I think it's terrific.Â* They can turn it off to us any time they
want.
On 5/10/2018 12:21 PM, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> Not commenting on this general thread.......
> Not commenting on the sometimes GPS accuracy in the US.
> Example......decades ago........seeing a track that went from Harris Hill to Europe and back.....in a few seconds. This while the glider and tracker were sitting on the grid at HHSC.......
> I was there.
> I saw the trace.
> Pretty much NO WAY any government could cover that ground in that time.
> I believe it was called, "military dithering" of the signal, because, government.
>
--
Dan, 5J
Richard Pfiffner[_2_]
May 11th 18, 12:59 AM
On Thursday, May 10, 2018 at 4:50:19 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Don't forget that GPS is a US military system.Â* It was not developed at
> great tax payer expense just for the pleasure of a few glider pilots,
> though I think it's terrific.Â* They can turn it off to us any time they
> want.
>
> On 5/10/2018 12:21 PM, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> > Not commenting on this general thread.......
> > Not commenting on the sometimes GPS accuracy in the US.
> > Example......decades ago........seeing a track that went from Harris Hill to Europe and back.....in a few seconds. This while the glider and tracker were sitting on the grid at HHSC.......
> > I was there.
> > I saw the trace.
> > Pretty much NO WAY any government could cover that ground in that time.
> > I believe it was called, "military dithering" of the signal, because, government.
> >
>
> --
> Dan, 5J
Another benefit to the world from the evil empire.
Jonathan St. Cloud
May 11th 18, 01:10 AM
They have "promised" not to turn off.
On Thursday, May 10, 2018 at 4:50:19 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Don't forget that GPS is a US military system.Â* It was not developed at
> great tax payer expense just for the pleasure of a few glider pilots,
> though I think it's terrific.Â* They can turn it off to us any time they
> want.
>
> On 5/10/2018 12:21 PM, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> > Not commenting on this general thread.......
> > Not commenting on the sometimes GPS accuracy in the US.
> > Example......decades ago........seeing a track that went from Harris Hill to Europe and back.....in a few seconds. This while the glider and tracker were sitting on the grid at HHSC.......
> > I was there.
> > I saw the trace.
> > Pretty much NO WAY any government could cover that ground in that time.
> > I believe it was called, "military dithering" of the signal, because, government.
> >
>
> --
> Dan, 5J
The US military built, owns, and controls it, but the user base has kind of gotten out of hand.
They might could turn it off any time they want once, but it might be a career limiting event.
If they caused a wide outage without a good reason, there would be a political backlash from the number of folks that paid for it being inconvenienced or worse.
GPS testing is done from several military bases and that testing can and does involve skewing of signals, denial of service or anything else that may be deemed necessary in the National interest or to evaluate the impact on a battlefield, where enemy combatants may be using US assets to inflict damage on the US or our allies.
Remember that this is a service provided at no charge (except to the US taxpayer) for a benefit that is utilized worldwide. There are other systems (Google Glonass) but the most prevalent and capable system is still the US Air Force administered constellation of satellites that provides reasonably dependable and accurate position data to civilian air traffic, both commercial and private, to the point that airliners and other Instrument rated pilots and aircraft routinely use these data and allow for "GPS Approaches" to the centerline of the runway.
In times of war or other national emergencies, the civilian and/or commercial service may be disrupted or canceled completely either worldwide or in specific areas, while leaving the US military in a situation whereby they can still utilize the signals. GPS jamming is possible by anything from a concerted effort by opposing forces to truckers (or anyone else) on the highway who purchase a cheap signal blocking device to mask their behavior on the road from the home company or other signals analysis entities. (You can buy GPS blockers on eBay.)
I remember a notable presentation at Oshkosh several years ago entitled, "GPS Stole My Brain." Total reliance on this system with no actual physical and mental map reading skill is foolhardy.
As far as people (users) being "inconvenienced" or (administrators) dealing with a "career limiting event," I will side with the US soldier every time..
We deal with GPS testing on a fairly regular basis from Holloman Air Force Base and the White Sands Missile Range. The schedule for testing, the approximated affected area and altitudes are published well in advance and are available from a number of websites. I check the schedule, just I check for NOTAMs and TFRs. I suggest you do the same.
On Thursday, May 10, 2018 at 3:05:30 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> Personally, to cheer such utter stupidity says a lot about you. Personally.
> Trumo is ruining the US reputation world wide.
> Making the US grate again.
You are more than welcome to find the closest "Why she lost" cry party where you might find someone who actually cares about what you think.
Tom
On Thursday, May 10, 2018 at 5:20:52 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> Unfortunately - decisions that Trump makes do not just affect the US - but have a ripple effect on the rest of the world too. Just simple things like the sharp increase in oil price following his Iran announcement means my fuel price will go up next month - and I live in South Africa which has nothing to do with the spat with Iran.
Think about what would happen to oil prices if Iran hits Israel with a nuke..
Tom
On Thursday, May 10, 2018 at 5:14:49 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> The US military built, owns, and controls it, but the user base has kind of gotten out of hand.
>
> They might could turn it off any time they want once, but it might be a career limiting event.
>
> If they caused a wide outage without a good reason, there would be a political backlash from the number of folks that paid for it being inconvenienced or worse.
The US military does not "own" GPS; the US Air Force operates it (it is owned by the US government). Selective Availability was ended in the 1990s by Bill Clinton. Since then, GPS has become a critical resource used by all government agencies, but, most importantly, by the FAA. GPS will only be shut down in the event of a critical national emergency; can you image the impact on airliners using a GPS IFR approach that suddenly went dark? For more info, go to:
https://www.gps.gov/systems/gps/performance/accuracy/
Tom
Jonathan St. Cloud
May 11th 18, 03:42 AM
On Thursday, May 10, 2018 at 6:08:15 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> GPS testing is done from several military bases and that testing can and does involve skewing of signals, denial of service or anything else that may be deemed necessary in the National interest or to evaluate the impact on a battlefield, where enemy combatants may be using US assets to inflict damage on the US or our allies.
>
> Remember that this is a service provided at no charge (except to the US taxpayer) for a benefit that is utilized worldwide. There are other systems (Google Glonass) but the most prevalent and capable system is still the US Air Force administered constellation of satellites that provides reasonably dependable and accurate position data to civilian air traffic, both commercial and private, to the point that airliners and other Instrument rated pilots and aircraft routinely use these data and allow for "GPS Approaches" to the centerline of the runway.
>
> In times of war or other national emergencies, the civilian and/or commercial service may be disrupted or canceled completely either worldwide or in specific areas, while leaving the US military in a situation whereby they can still utilize the signals. GPS jamming is possible by anything from a concerted effort by opposing forces to truckers (or anyone else) on the highway who purchase a cheap signal blocking device to mask their behavior on the road from the home company or other signals analysis entities. (You can buy GPS blockers on eBay.)
>
> I remember a notable presentation at Oshkosh several years ago entitled, "GPS Stole My Brain." Total reliance on this system with no actual physical and mental map reading skill is foolhardy.
>
> As far as people (users) being "inconvenienced" or (administrators) dealing with a "career limiting event," I will side with the US soldier every time.
>
> We deal with GPS testing on a fairly regular basis from Holloman Air Force Base and the White Sands Missile Range. The schedule for testing, the approximated affected area and altitudes are published well in advance and are available from a number of websites. I check the schedule, just I check for NOTAMs and TFRs. I suggest you do the same.
During the second Clinton administration, the Selective Availability was ended by executive action. If the military doesn't want you to have GPS they jam an area instead of turn the entire GPS network off or to selective availability. Also, as the boys flying the Sentinel over Iran found out GPS signals can be spoofed. Many military weapons systems still use inertial nav only checked occasionally against GPS.
This is one Sean can’t get blamed for...
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