Moving Gliders

[Paul Agnew]

Best practices for moving gliders around?

Stacking the hangar...

Staging...

Clearing the runway...

>>>

I've recently been told that the Europeans never move a glider by the wingtips, but it's almost a necessity when stacking our hangar. (Gliders are on wheel sleds, so the load is not high.) Things can be tight and we often need someone on each wing to prevent hangar rash, but don't have someone as a wingroot pusher.

There are some significant some differences of opinions due to various culture and practices differences from previous clubs. So, what does your club do?

Paul A.

[[email protected]]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pz6o0LYcroc

[Paul Agnew]

I've seen that before and it doesn't answer the questions.

PA

[krasw]

keskiviikko 9. toukokuuta 2018 4.49.57 UTC+3 Paul Agnew kirjoitti:
> Best practices for moving gliders around?
>
> Stacking the hangar...
>
> Staging...
>
> Clearing the runway...
>
> >>>
>
> I've recently been told that the Europeans never move a glider by the wingtips, but it's almost a necessity when stacking our hangar. (Gliders are on wheel sleds, so the load is not high.) Things can be tight and we often need someone on each wing to prevent hangar rash, but don't have someone as a wingroot pusher.
>
> There are some significant some differences of opinions due to various culture and practices differences from previous clubs. So, what does your club do?
>
> Paul A.

If the hangar floor is flat concrete (as it always is), we sometimes push from the wingtips as the force is very low. On soft ground we try to prevent unnecessary wear on the fittings by pushing from wing root or mid-wing location.

Always hilarious to read "Europeans do" something :)

[[email protected]]

Move the wingtip forwards and backwards - if there is play between the wing and the fuselage then the glider has been pulled around by the tips. Longer wings more likely to develop play due to this. Well that is what was told to me by my instructor when I was a student - so just never pulled a glider forwards and backwards by the tips. A glider on a dolly that you pushing/pulling sideways by the tips would experience different forces and the wear is not likely be as pronounced.

[son_of_flubber]

If we wait long enough, somebody of dubious credential will come along and say that pushing on the wingtips is just fine. Have at it.

[Bruce Hoult]

On Wednesday, May 9, 2018 at 11:38:35 PM UTC+12, son_of_flubber wrote:
> If we wait long enough, somebody of dubious credential will come along and say that pushing on the wingtips is just fine. Have at it.

No credentials, but a couple of questions:

1) what is the function of "drag pins"

2) how much load is put on things by pushing a glider around by the wing tips compared to opening the brakes at high speed, or by a Vne dive with brakes open? (and is either "necessary"?)

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, May 9, 2018 at 7:38:35 AM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
> If we wait long enough, somebody of dubious credential will come along and say that pushing on the wingtips is just fine. Have at it.

There is no credentialing on either side so far. I don't know what the answer is. The first question is what does the glider manual say? Any manufacturer statements against it? Most of the time old practices are sound but sometimes it's just some cranks dumb idea that got perpetuated into being SOP.

[Dan Marotta]

Crazy Americans...

On 5/8/2018 8:01 PM, wrote:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pz6o0LYcroc

--
Dan, 5J

[Dan Marotta]

"Drag pins" - clothed as the opposite gender?

On 5/9/2018 6:07 AM, Bruce Hoult wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 9, 2018 at 11:38:35 PM UTC+12, son_of_flubber wrote:
>> If we wait long enough, somebody of dubious credential will come along and say that pushing on the wingtips is just fine. Have at it.
> No credentials, but a couple of questions:
>
> 1) what is the function of "drag pins"
>
> 2) how much load is put on things by pushing a glider around by the wing tips compared to opening the brakes at high speed, or by a Vne dive with brakes open? (and is either "necessary"?)

--
Dan, 5J

[Scott Williams]

On Tuesday, May 8, 2018 at 8:49:57 PM UTC-5, Paul Agnew wrote:
> Best practices for moving gliders around?
>
> Stacking the hangar...
>
> Staging...
>
> Clearing the runway...
>
> >>>
>
> I've recently been told that the Europeans never move a glider by the wingtips, but it's almost a necessity when stacking our hangar. (Gliders are on wheel sleds, so the load is not high.) Things can be tight and we often need someone on each wing to prevent hangar rash, but don't have someone as a wingroot pusher.
>
> There are some significant some differences of opinions due to various culture and practices differences from previous clubs. So, what does your club do?
>
> Paul A.

I suppose if you really leaned on a wing tip, say 80 lbs worth of 'grunt"
you might exert 2000 lbs on a forward or aft root pin location, 4000lbs if the pin is only 6 inches from the spar. Not an insignificant force.

Scott.

[Bob Kuykendall]

On Wednesday, May 9, 2018 at 5:07:21 AM UTC-7, Bruce Hoult wrote:

> 1) what is the function of "drag pins"

In typical sailplane practice, there are no "drag pins" per se; drag and thrust loads are accommodated by a torque couple comprised of spanwise tension outboard on the wing main spar and spanwise compression inboard applied between the flat faces at the root of the lift pin and at the end of the pin socket it fits into.

The loads reacted in this manner are primarily forward thrust loads, which in the normal flight envelope are much greater than the drag loads. Of course, abnormal overloads are most often drag loads applied when the wingtip encounters an obstacle on takeoff or landing.

> 2) how much load is put on things by pushing a glider around by the wing tips compared to opening the brakes at high speed, or by a Vne dive with brakes open? (and is either "necessary"?)

Just for arguement, let's consider a 15m glider with VNE-limiting airbrakes going straight down. Our hypothetical glider has a non-lifting mass of 500 lbs, so we know that the the brake on each wing is delivering 250 lbs of drag into the fuselage. Each airbrake is located 100" outboard of the root. The distance between the wing main spar and the aft lift pin is 12". Simple statics suggests that the compression force applied at each aft lift pin is on the order of 250lbf*100"/12" = ~2080 lbf. For comparison, this compression force would be developed by an aft pull on the wingtip of 2080lbf*12"/300" = ~83 lbf.

As I recall, US FAR Part 23 and the very similar JAR/CS 22 specify that a normal category glider be able to accommodate a 100 lbf chordwise force at the wingtip unless lower can be rationally justified. My impression is that most gliders are certificated to lower tip forces, the rational justification being "we handle them with care."

As I understand the issue at the root of this discussion, the problem is not so much overloads, but rather wear between the lift pins and sockets. Gliders being moderately limber, when you apply a chordwise force at the tip it separates the pin and socket from full engagement by some small but non-trivial amount; let's guess around 0.020" (0.5mm). And when the force is removed or reversed, the pin and socket go back together. Repeated cycles of this half-mm movement can, over time, result in wear and looseness. Remember that the wings typically weigh between 120 and 180 lbs each, so that's a vertical force of 60 to 90 lbs at each pin and socket connection while they're being worked in and out.

For the gliders I've designed, my advice is that an occasional chordwise force at the tip of up to 50 lbf while parking or moving the glider is not an issue. However, repeated cycles, for example when moving the glider from one end of the runway to the other, should be avoided when practical.

--Bob K.

[Piet Barber]

> As I recall, US FAR Part 23 and the very similar JAR/CS 22 specify that a normal category glider be able to accommodate a 100 lbf chordwise force at the wingtip unless lower can be rationally justified. My impression is that most gliders are certificated to lower tip forces, the rational justification being "we handle them with care."

I looked it up. JAR 22.501 Wing-tip landing

"There must be means to ensure that ground
loads acting at the wing tips are adequately
resisted. A limit load T = 40 daN must be
assumed to act rearward at the point of contact of
one wing-tip with the ground, in a direction
parallel to the longitudinal axis of the sailplane,
the yawing moment so generated must be
balanced by side load R at the tail skid/wheel or
nose skid/wheel (see Figure 4)."

40 daN of force at the wingtip works out to about 89.9 pounds-force. That's pretty close to your recollection of 100 lbf. I don't know what your average wing-walker can generate in terms of pushing force. (I can't say I've ever placed a bathroom scale on the wall and pushed on it with all my strength). I also don't know what kind of standards were required for the older antique gliders; they may have been certified before JAR-22 was even a thing.

I still don't let people help push my Duo from the wingtip. Come in-board to the spoilers if you want to push.