refilling O2 bottles on the road.

[kimobear]

When traveling with a motor glider out west ( USA), what do people do, when trying to get their O2 bottles refilled?
I noticed in the notes on airport services available at smaller airport, that most have no O2 refilling services available.
Carrying a full size tank in car to fill from is not an option.

Salutem,
Kimobear
flatlander who likes O2

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

Find a medical supply house?
Also look for SCUBA shops, industrial gas suppliers (like AGL) but be forewarned, they may do O2, make sure they can do BREATHABLE O2.

Maybe call some local to you places, explain what you're looking for and why, see what they say.

[Dan Marotta]

On a trip to Salida, CO a few years back, we went to the local O2
supplier and rented a large bottle.Â* I believe the cost was $42 for a
month.Â* At the end of the week, we offered free O2 to the other glider
pilots, returned the bottle, and enjoyed the rest of the trip.

$42 for the rental vs. $40/fill up at the airport.Â* We had our own trans
fill hose.Â* Now I have a large bottle (one size below the really big
one) which fits in an aft external storage compartment of our RV.

On 6/2/2018 10:52 AM, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> Find a medical supply house?
> Also look for SCUBA shops, industrial gas suppliers (like AGL) but be forewarned, they may do O2, make sure they can do BREATHABLE O2.
>
> Maybe call some local to you places, explain what you're looking for and why, see what they say.

--
Dan, 5J

[Richard Pfiffner[_2_]]

On Saturday, June 2, 2018 at 10:30:46 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> On a trip to Salida, CO a few years back, we went to the local O2
> supplier and rented a large bottle.Â* I believe the cost was $42 for a
> month.Â* At the end of the week, we offered free O2 to the other glider
> pilots, returned the bottle, and enjoyed the rest of the trip.
>
> $42 for the rental vs. $40/fill up at the airport.Â* We had our own trans
> fill hose.Â* Now I have a large bottle (one size below the really big
> one) which fits in an aft external storage compartment of our RV.
>
> On 6/2/2018 10:52 AM, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> > Find a medical supply house?
> > Also look for SCUBA shops, industrial gas suppliers (like AGL) but be forewarned, they may do O2, make sure they can do BREATHABLE O2.
> >
> > Maybe call some local to you places, explain what you're looking for and why, see what they say.
>
> --
> Dan, 5J

Ask for ABO (aviators breathing Oxygen) when you go to a O2 Supplier
Go to this page for information about Oxygen Transfilling.

http://www.craggyaero.com/MountainHigh/Oxygen%20Transfiller%20Info(md).pdf

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[[email protected]]

Barry- talk to me when you get a chance.

[Darryl Ramm]

On Sunday, June 3, 2018 at 7:23:11 AM UTC-7, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> On Saturday, June 2, 2018 at 10:30:46 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > On a trip to Salida, CO a few years back, we went to the local O2
> > supplier and rented a large bottle.Â* I believe the cost was $42 for a
> > month.Â* At the end of the week, we offered free O2 to the other glider
> > pilots, returned the bottle, and enjoyed the rest of the trip.
> >
> > $42 for the rental vs. $40/fill up at the airport.Â* We had our own trans
> > fill hose.Â* Now I have a large bottle (one size below the really big
> > one) which fits in an aft external storage compartment of our RV.
> >
> > On 6/2/2018 10:52 AM, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> > > Find a medical supply house?
> > > Also look for SCUBA shops, industrial gas suppliers (like AGL) but be forewarned, they may do O2, make sure they can do BREATHABLE O2.
> > >
> > > Maybe call some local to you places, explain what you're looking for and why, see what they say.
> >
> > --
> > Dan, 5J
>
> Ask for ABO (aviators breathing Oxygen) when you go to a O2 Supplier
> Go to this page for information about Oxygen Transfilling.
>
> http://www.craggyaero.com/MountainHigh/Oxygen%20Transfiller%20Info(md).pdf
>
> Richard
> www.craggyaero.com

Or maybe better just rick up and buy a cylinder and everything you talk about is how much steel you have to oxy-cut :-)

The main point is you never want to get in the medical oxygen/prescription stupidity.

And that advice if great, but confusingly the advice to ask for aviators oxygen (to avoid the prescription medical trap) is sometimes taken to confirm beliefs that industrial/welders oxygen is somehow different than aviators oxygen. As long as its bulk oxygen from a cryogenic fractional distillation source (which all industrial stuff will be) it's all the same. We've flogged that donkey to death enough times on r.a.s.

[Darryl Ramm]

On Saturday, June 2, 2018 at 9:52:46 AM UTC-7, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> Find a medical supply house?
> Also look for SCUBA shops, industrial gas suppliers (like AGL) but be forewarned, they may do O2, make sure they can do BREATHABLE O2.
>
> Maybe call some local to you places, explain what you're looking for and why, see what they say.

Can you give an example of unbreathable O2 and who supplies it?

[[email protected]]

It happens I just did this exercise with the local welder's supply.

For a 250cuft tank, the cost was $28 for the O2 + $10 for a month's tank rental(not charged for a week) + $250 for a tank deposit (refunded on return) + $9.50 for a hazmat fee.

After talking to them, one difference for aviator's O2 is that they actually have a lab test a for purity. So there is a paper trail and a neat certificate saying 99.9% purity. (I didn't ask if the remaining .01% was the hazard.)

Given the physics of liquid O2 and the cleanliness requirements for dealing with 2000psi O2, probably very few welder's bottles would fail the test. Next time I'm there, I'll try to ask if there is anything different about the filing procedure that might affect the odds. But the cost is so low that I can't imagine getting anything else.

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

No, I can't.
I go based on having Scott airpacks refilled for emergency use at manufacturing plants I have worked at in the past.
User manuals back then stated to refill with "breathing oxygen", thus my comment.
I thought part of that was humidity, but not sure.

If someone went to a decent supplier and asked for "breathing oxygen" and were told, "no difference", then fine.

[Darryl Ramm]

On Sunday, June 3, 2018 at 7:25:01 PM UTC-7, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> No, I can't.
> I go based on having Scott airpacks refilled for emergency use at manufacturing plants I have worked at in the past.
> User manuals back then stated to refill with "breathing oxygen", thus my comment.
> I thought part of that was humidity, but not sure.
>
> If someone went to a decent supplier and asked for "breathing oxygen" and were told, "no difference", then fine.

Moisture differences in different labeled oxygen supplies (again we are talking about O2 from cryogenic fractional liquid distillation) is an old wives tale. There is no water vapor in the gases produced by fractional liquid distillation, and nobody is going to add any downstream to the high pressure gas. High pressure O2 is extremely reactive and the systems would not tolerate moisture in it. Imagine the rust/corrosion eating holes inside a steel cylinder in a pure oxygen high pressure environment with water condensed inside of it. Yes they nay have surface treatment, but its only partially effective. Humidity in medical oxygen is added to the oxygen at the point of administration when the oxygen is essentially at room pressure and the delivery system is all inert plastic and silicone.

There are risks in dealign with this stuff. Handling any high-pressure gas and such a powerful oxidizer as high-pressure oxygen is dangerous, I hope people minimize those risks, there have been had fires during transfilling and nice articles about that in Soaring Magazine in the past, luckily nobody was injured or killed. Personally I'm OK with breathing welding supply oxygen as long as I know the handlign has been reasonable. I have been more worried just seeing people handle cylinders with less than respect than they deserve.

[[email protected]]

So what happens if I rent a welding cylinder, weld until it's empty, remove the regulator, forget to close the valve, and just for fun it gets rained on?

Do they just refill it or dry and purge it first?

[Darryl Ramm]

On Sunday, June 3, 2018 at 9:14:57 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> So what happens if I rent a welding cylinder, weld until it's empty, remove the regulator, forget to close the valve, and just for fun it gets rained on?
>
> Do they just refill it or dry and purge it first?

If folks who rely on that cylinder find out the back of you head might hurt :-)

I would ask your specific supplier. Many places will get more cautions with cylinders that have no pressure in them, simple purging at a minimum. if the cylinder was suspected of containing water the fill station can fully dry it and if they want wan to internally inspect it or fully test it. Remember the cylinders are fully wet internally when hydrotested... but they are dried and purged before refilling.

If you abuse a cylinder and it causes serious internal damage I hope that is found in time by the next cylinder test, in the internal or ultrasound inspection or pressure test.

[Bob Kuykendall]

On Sunday, June 3, 2018 at 9:14:57 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> So what happens if I rent a welding cylinder, weld until it's empty, remove the regulator, forget to close the valve, and just for fun it gets rained on?
>
> Do they just refill it or dry and purge it first?

My experience is that it varies. But I have had suppliers who insisted on a vacuum purge (and associated cost) when presented with any completely depressurized bottle. The last time I built a bottle from scratch (medical D plus aviation CGA540 valve), I purged it myself using my vacuum bagging pump, put about 100 PSI of O2 in it from the welding rig, and then took it to the refill place and got it filled, no problem.

--Bob K.

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

Thanks for the info.

[OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net]

Every welding O2 supply house I have been to exchange the cylinder, not re-fill it. It is just so much faster for a welder that needs to get back on the job. This exchange would be only for standard sizes. This may be fine for your glider but in my particular case (Schleicher) I haven't found a welding supply house yet that has the correct (exchange) size for my sleeve. Most glider operations out west can refill for you. You might try medical supply houses.

[[email protected]]

"You might try medical supply houses."

Medical supply houses are a BAD idea. First, they will most likely demand a prescription from a doctor for refills, as medical O2 is regulated by the FDA. It will also be much more expensive. Second, virtually all medical O2 cylinders use a "post" type (Puritan-Bennett CGA-870) fitting. Aviators Breathing Oxygen and welding oxygen cylinders use the CGA-540 fitting. (European cylinders typically use the DIN-477.)

If you have your own transfiller, you might be able to persuade a welding shop to give you a fill, but I suggest cleaning all the fittings on both cylinders and the transfiller with Formula 409 or equivalent. (No acetone, alcohol or other petroleum based solvents, for obvious reasons.)

[Darryl Ramm]

On Monday, June 4, 2018 at 5:58:37 AM UTC-7, OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net wrote:
> Every welding O2 supply house I have been to exchange the cylinder, not re-fill it. It is just so much faster for a welder that needs to get back on the job. This exchange would be only for standard sizes. This may be fine for your glider but in my particular case (Schleicher) I haven't found a welding supply house yet that has the correct (exchange) size for my sleeve.. Most glider operations out west can refill for you. You might try medical supply houses.

I was meaning a standard cylinder that you then transfill into the glider cylinder. Yes the OP may not have an easy or safe way to carry the cylinder that, but that's how some folks without other options do this. No I would not carry a cylinder around in a car.

Many gas suppliers will fill your own non-rental cylinders as long as the inspection is current and they are properly labeled. Some will hydrotesr/recertify out of date cylinders and then fill them. Anything labeled medical or aviators breathing oxygen increases chances it won't get filled as regular industrial oxygen.

The discussion above already covered why you don't say the word "medical".

[[email protected][_1_]]

Mountain High has a discussion on their FAQ page regarding different sources/types of Oxygen and confirms that it is all the same.

As others have stated, the best solution is to rent a bottle locally and return it when you leave. May be prudent to call ahead and reserve one. Having two aircraft bottles works well. Swap out full for empty and refill at your leisure.

Also concur that large high pressure oxidizer bottles and transfill systems need to be treated with much respect.

[[email protected]]

On Saturday, June 2, 2018 at 11:34:31 AM UTC-5, kimobear wrote:
> When traveling with a motor glider out west ( USA), what do people do, when trying to get their O2 bottles refilled?
> I noticed in the notes on airport services available at smaller airport, that most have no O2 refilling services available.
> Carrying a full size tank in car to fill from is not an option.
>
> Salutem,
> Kimobear
> flatlander who likes O2

Every year I receive a checkup with my local doctor. During the visit he provides me with the Basic Med document for powered flight and a prescription for medical O2. I get three E size cylinders filled each spring and then transfer the O2 into my tank that is mounted into the tail boom of the sailplane. For my two weeks of flying out west each year I have enough to cover my needs.

[Dan Marotta]

When we were in Salida, CO, we rented a large bottle with a CGA-540
valve from...Â* Salida Medical & Respiratory.Â* No prescription required,
no medical valve.Â* They even loaned us a dolly to roll the bottle out to
our car.

On 6/4/2018 7:35 AM, wrote:
> "You might try medical supply houses."
>
> Medical supply houses are a BAD idea. First, they will most likely demand a prescription from a doctor for refills, as medical O2 is regulated by the FDA. It will also be much more expensive. Second, virtually all medical O2 cylinders use a "post" type (Puritan-Bennett CGA-870) fitting. Aviators Breathing Oxygen and welding oxygen cylinders use the CGA-540 fitting. (European cylinders typically use the DIN-477.)
>
> If you have your own transfiller, you might be able to persuade a welding shop to give you a fill, but I suggest cleaning all the fittings on both cylinders and the transfiller with Formula 409 or equivalent. (No acetone, alcohol or other petroleum based solvents, for obvious reasons.)
>

--
Dan, 5J

[6PK]

On Saturday, June 2, 2018 at 9:34:31 AM UTC-7, kimobear wrote:
> When traveling with a motor glider out west ( USA), what do people do, when trying to get their O2 bottles refilled?
> I noticed in the notes on airport services available at smaller airport, that most have no O2 refilling services available.
> Carrying a full size tank in car to fill from is not an option.
>
> Salutem,
> Kimobear
> flatlander who likes O2

Many years ago I used to fill my tanks at an aviation supply place with aviation 02.
One day they informed me that they no longer offer re-fills and sent to their nearby source where they used to buy it- to get my tanks filled.
When I requested aviation oxygen the owner quoted me $30 a fill up of aviation oxygen or $15 for regular, and than he pointed to this very large tank and said "by the way they both come out of THAT container"

[kimobear]

Hoi everybody,

Just an update.
As a solution I ended up getting a small tank and an transfill hose with an pressure gauge to fill my airplane bottle when traveling. According to the calculations I should get 3 refills and then fill or exchange it on the road at welders supply.
Thanks for information to help me deciding how to solve this.

Salutem,
Barry

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

Well, glad you ended up with a solution.
Thanks for closing this out.

I also learned something here, so I consider it good.

[[email protected]]

If you go to the local welding shop and they are willing to fill your bottle (vs. exchange) if they ask what you are using it for say that you are using it for live bait on your bass boat. Some shops will back off if they suspect you’re using it for aviation even though (as stated above) there is no longer any difference between ABO and “regular� O2. With the current air separation process all the moisture is removed early on. It’s all 99.999% O2 with trace other gasses.

[Dan Marotta]

Good point.Â* I've found that the gas supplier in Moriarty won't provide
any services if they know you might use their products for your
aircraft.Â* I get my big O2 bottle exchanged in Albuquerque.

On 6/11/2018 7:54 PM, wrote:
> If you go to the local welding shop and they are willing to fill your bottle (vs. exchange) if they ask what you are using it for say that you are using it for live bait on your bass boat. Some shops will back off if they suspect you’re using it for aviation even though (as stated above) there is no longer any difference between ABO and “regular� O2. With the current air separation process all the moisture is removed early on. It’s all 99.999% O2 with trace other gasses.

--
Dan, 5J