View Full Version : Average time to solo a student
I'm a very experienced power pilot CFI & have soloed hundreds of airplane student pilots over the years. That said, I'm not as experienced as a CFIG.
I soloed a new student this weekend. He flew three solo flights & did a spectacular job. He has no former flying experience so he wasn't the typical add-on pilot that I'm usually teaching.
On line it appears in several places that the average time to solo a glider is around 40 flights. Is they information accurate? My student doesn't have nearly that many flights.
Opinions?
I soloed after 25 launches. No prior flyimg.
The last two or three I've soloed.. no previous flying were at about 25 flights.
JP
The launch method has an impact. The longer flights associated with aerotow will probably mean a lower number of flights needed than with winch launching - but may mean longer actual flight time.
Jim Kellett
June 4th 18, 11:50 AM
On Sunday, June 3, 2018 at 11:43:58 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> I soloed a new student this weekend. He flew three solo flights & did a spectacular job. He has no former flying experience so he wasn't the typical add-on pilot that I'm usually teaching.
>
> On line it appears in several places that the average time to solo a glider is around 40 flights. Is they information accurate? My student doesn't have nearly that many flights.
<snip>
Well, as usual, "it depends" - particularly on age and frequency of flying. In my 40 years of instructing in gliders, I find the SSA's estimate of age plus 25 for ab initio students to solo pretty accurate. But I've seen as few as 20 or so for teenagers, and one that required over 90! For add-ons, it's all over the place depending on, e.g., not only age (older takes more sorties) or if they have any tail-dragger time (which shortens the number of sorties needed to solo).
On Sunday, June 3, 2018 at 11:43:58 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> I'm a very experienced power pilot CFI & have soloed hundreds of airplane student pilots over the years. That said, I'm not as experienced as a CFIG.
>
> I soloed a new student this weekend. He flew three solo flights & did a spectacular job. He has no former flying experience so he wasn't the typical add-on pilot that I'm usually teaching.
>
> On line it appears in several places that the average time to solo a glider is around 40 flights. Is they information accurate? My student doesn't have nearly that many flights.
>
> Opinions?
45 years training.
I soloed in 20 flights but there were gaps in my training based on my experience since then.
When asked today I tell people that students that of "average" aptitude, that fly regularly and do their home study, can expect to solo in between 25 and 35 flights. I have had one or two serious young people that were good enough at 20 flights but most come in around 30. This is aero tow.
I get crazy when I see students who have soloed at other sites and see maybe 3 or 4 flights with slow flight and stalls logged. The task has been covered but there is almost no reasonable expectation of proficiency.
A few extra pro solo flights with emphasis on slow flight, stalls, precision, and odd condition patterns is, in my experience, worth the time and money and leads to better progress after first solo.
FWIW
UH
Papa3[_2_]
June 4th 18, 03:14 PM
New kid on the block here with only 25 years instructing :-) Same answers as Hank and Jim. 25-35 here in the northeast with consistency/concentration of flying being the big variable. If you are a weekends-only operation and you lose a few weekends to weather or mechanicals, it can definitely seem like "two steps forward, one step back." On the other hand, with students who can fly during the week when it's less busy at the airport and they can do 3 or 4 takeoffs and landings at a time, we can skew toward the lower end.
Erik Mann (P3)
On Monday, June 4, 2018 at 8:45:11 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> On Sunday, June 3, 2018 at 11:43:58 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > I'm a very experienced power pilot CFI & have soloed hundreds of airplane student pilots over the years. That said, I'm not as experienced as a CFIG.
> >
> > I soloed a new student this weekend. He flew three solo flights & did a spectacular job. He has no former flying experience so he wasn't the typical add-on pilot that I'm usually teaching.
> >
> > On line it appears in several places that the average time to solo a glider is around 40 flights. Is they information accurate? My student doesn't have nearly that many flights.
> >
> > Opinions?
>
> 45 years training.
> I soloed in 20 flights but there were gaps in my training based on my experience since then.
> When asked today I tell people that students that of "average" aptitude, that fly regularly and do their home study, can expect to solo in between 25 and 35 flights. I have had one or two serious young people that were good enough at 20 flights but most come in around 30. This is aero tow.
> I get crazy when I see students who have soloed at other sites and see maybe 3 or 4 flights with slow flight and stalls logged. The task has been covered but there is almost no reasonable expectation of proficiency.
> A few extra pro solo flights with emphasis on slow flight, stalls, precision, and odd condition patterns is, in my experience, worth the time and money and leads to better progress after first solo.
> FWIW
> UH
I am sure one variable is the aircraft used for instruction. From what I have observed over the years, 25 flights is not unusual with a 2-33, but something more sophisticated like a G-103 might take twice as many. (I am not an Instructor.)
I soloed in 25 in a Grob 103 mk1 taildragger, and I have to say, it set me in great stead, Ive since flown from the wooden ES52 Kookaburra and ES60 Boomerang to Nimbus 4DM and ASH25 &30,
With no difficulty. I later found ASK21 and Blanik particularly easy, with the Puchatek,
IS28B2, DG1000 and Duo discus close behind, all of them easier than the 103 Mk1, infact the only one as bad was the Janus B.
They were known as the concrete swan. The 103 Mk2 with nose wheel was much easier to fly.
I think the person is much more relevant than the glider, and that learning in a more difficult aircraft pays benefits later
CindyB[_2_]
June 5th 18, 02:33 AM
On Sunday, June 3, 2018 at 8:43:58 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> I'm a very experienced power pilot CFI & have soloed hundreds of airplane student pilots over the years. That said, I'm not as experienced as a CFIG.
>
> I soloed a new student this weekend. <snip> He <snip> did a spectacular job.
>
> On line it appears in several places that the average time to solo a glider is around 40 flights. Is they information accurate? My student doesn't have nearly that many flights.
>
> Opinions?
Congrats to the new solo pilot!
Opinions on r.a.s.? Ha! Lots of them, but you've got answers from a few fine instructors. More than 25 years CFI-G responding here.
Factors to consider on flight count to a solo:
Consistency of training (number of CFIs)
Frequency of training (best is alternate days, typical is 1x weekly)
Age of student (~25 flites plus 1 per year over age 50)
Emotional, physical or intellectual deficits
(dominant eye, musculature for controls, fear of flight, etc.)
Intellectual prep prior or concurrent with flying (Reading and study)
Valid simulator training experience (Condor's Great!)
Thoroughness of training syllabus (What variety of emergency prep?)
Potential weather variability and scale at solo location.
The student's mental outlook, responsibility and openness to ongoing training toward the rating.
A lesser impact on flight count is complexity of machine or launch method. The student doesn't know what they don't know. Give them a 2-33 or a DG-500 and they will learn rates for desired reactions.
CindyB[_2_]
June 5th 18, 02:55 AM
On Sunday, June 3, 2018 at 8:43:58 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> I'm a very experienced power pilot CFI & have soloed hundreds of airplane student pilots over the years. That said, I'm not as experienced as a CFIG.
>
me (CindyB change)
6:33 PM (less than a minute ago)
On Sunday, June 3, 2018 at 8:43:58 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> I'm a very experienced power pilot CFI & have soloed hundreds of airplane student pilots over the years. That said, I'm not as experienced as a CFIG.
>
> I soloed a new student this weekend. <snip> He <snip> did a spectacular job.
>
> On line it appears in several places that the average time to solo a glider is around 40 flights. Is they information accurate? My student doesn't have nearly that many flights.
>
> Opinions?
Congrats to the new solo pilot!
Opinions on r.a.s.? Ha! Lots of them, but you've got answers from a few fine instructors. More than 25 years CFI-G responding here.
Factors to consider on flight count to a solo:
Consistency of training (number of CFIs)
Frequency of training (best is alternate days, typical is 1x weekly)
Age of student (~25 flites plus 1 per year over age 40)
Emotional, physical or intellectual deficits
(dominant eye, musculature for controls, fear of flight, etc.)
Intellectual prep prior or concurrent with flying (Reading and study)
Valid simulator training experience (Condor's Great! Cuts airtime responsibly.)
Thoroughness of training syllabus (What variety of emergency prep?)
Potential weather variability and scale at solo location.
The student's mental outlook, responsibility and openness to ongoing training toward the rating.
A lesser impact on flight count is complexity of machine or launch method. The student doesn't know what they don't know. Give them a 2-33 or a DG-500 and they will learn rates for desired reactions.
As the CFI-G, you have to believe they will handle whatever comes their way during their solo supervision period. Engine/prop/mast complexities if self-launching. The abruptness of disarray in a botched winch start. The management of slack line and towing position and PT3s of aerotowing - flight as a formation and its necessary communication foibles/weaknesses.
You gave us little insight to allow us to respond with pertinent info. The gentlemen responded generically, appropriately.
Aerotow, once a week, variable weather, motivated reader, 2-33 through fixed gear glass ~30:1, typically 12-14 weeks and 30-35 to solo. But I am known to be thorough on the emergency procedures training.
Straight-ahead break, abbrev pattern 2-3 times from different places, downwind landing in 5-8 kts. That's 4 flights. Sprinkled thru the experience.
Full spoiler locked-open landing. Slip to a landing (no spoilers till touched). A wave-off or two at the top of some tow or other.
It keeps them thinking..... not coasting.
Thanks for being curious. Thanks for teaching.
Cindy Brickner
Mojave, CA
I have seen a statistic averaged over many solos.
20 starts + 1 for every year over the age of 20 for aerotow
20 starts + 2 for every year over the age of 20 for winch
On Sunday, June 3, 2018 at 8:43:58 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> I'm a very experienced power pilot CFI & have soloed hundreds of airplane student pilots over the years. That said, I'm not as experienced as a CFIG.
>
> I soloed a new student this weekend. He flew three solo flights & did a spectacular job. He has no former flying experience so he wasn't the typical add-on pilot that I'm usually teaching.
>
> On line it appears in several places that the average time to solo a glider is around 40 flights. Is they information accurate? My student doesn't have nearly that many flights.
>
> Opinions?
lynn
June 5th 18, 06:07 AM
On Sunday, June 3, 2018 at 8:43:58 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> I'm a very experienced power pilot CFI & have soloed hundreds of airplane student pilots over the years. That said, I'm not as experienced as a CFIG.
>
> I soloed a new student this weekend. He flew three solo flights & did a spectacular job. He has no former flying experience so he wasn't the typical add-on pilot that I'm usually teaching.
>
> On line it appears in several places that the average time to solo a glider is around 40 flights. Is they information accurate? My student doesn't have nearly that many flights.
>
> Opinions?
I soloed on my 20th flight with zero previous flying experience. Credit this to having 3 to 4 flights a day for 6 flying days over a 5 week period.
Steve Koerner
June 5th 18, 06:16 AM
15 starts here. Then three months later off doing intentional cross country. And 42 years more it's still damn fun. Hope the new inductee goes crazy with soaring too.
Bruce Hoult
June 5th 18, 06:24 AM
On Tuesday, June 5, 2018 at 1:55:12 PM UTC+12, CindyB wrote:
> On Sunday, June 3, 2018 at 8:43:58 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > I'm a very experienced power pilot CFI & have soloed hundreds of airplane student pilots over the years. That said, I'm not as experienced as a CFIG.
> >
>
> me (CindyB change)
> 6:33 PM (less than a minute ago)
> On Sunday, June 3, 2018 at 8:43:58 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > I'm a very experienced power pilot CFI & have soloed hundreds of airplane student pilots over the years. That said, I'm not as experienced as a CFIG.
> >
> > I soloed a new student this weekend. <snip> He <snip> did a spectacular job.
> >
> > On line it appears in several places that the average time to solo a glider is around 40 flights. Is they information accurate? My student doesn't have nearly that many flights.
> >
> > Opinions?
>
> Congrats to the new solo pilot!
> Opinions on r.a.s.? Ha! Lots of them, but you've got answers from a few fine instructors. More than 25 years CFI-G responding here.
>
> Factors to consider on flight count to a solo:
> Consistency of training (number of CFIs)
> Frequency of training (best is alternate days, typical is 1x weekly)
> Age of student (~25 flites plus 1 per year over age 40)
> Emotional, physical or intellectual deficits
> (dominant eye, musculature for controls, fear of flight, etc.)
> Intellectual prep prior or concurrent with flying (Reading and study)
> Valid simulator training experience (Condor's Great! Cuts airtime responsibly.)
> Thoroughness of training syllabus (What variety of emergency prep?)
> Potential weather variability and scale at solo location.
> The student's mental outlook, responsibility and openness to ongoing training toward the rating.
>
>
> A lesser impact on flight count is complexity of machine or launch method.. The student doesn't know what they don't know. Give them a 2-33 or a DG-500 and they will learn rates for desired reactions.
>
> As the CFI-G, you have to believe they will handle whatever comes their way during their solo supervision period. Engine/prop/mast complexities if self-launching. The abruptness of disarray in a botched winch start. The management of slack line and towing position and PT3s of aerotowing - flight as a formation and its necessary communication foibles/weaknesses.
>
> You gave us little insight to allow us to respond with pertinent info. The gentlemen responded generically, appropriately.
>
> Aerotow, once a week, variable weather, motivated reader, 2-33 through fixed gear glass ~30:1, typically 12-14 weeks and 30-35 to solo. But I am known to be thorough on the emergency procedures training.
> Straight-ahead break, abbrev pattern 2-3 times from different places, downwind landing in 5-8 kts. That's 4 flights. Sprinkled thru the experience.
> Full spoiler locked-open landing. Slip to a landing (no spoilers till touched). A wave-off or two at the top of some tow or other.
> It keeps them thinking..... not coasting.
>
> Thanks for being curious. Thanks for teaching.
>
> Cindy Brickner
> Mojave, CA
A factor you missed. Is soloing:
- ability to safely launch and execute a circuit to landing on a calm windless late afternoon "I FLEW AN AIRCRAFT ALL BY MYSELF!"
OR
- ability to safely launch in active thermic (bumpy and/or a bit of wind) or ridge (definitely some wind) conditions and stay up for half an hour.
?
If you're training towards the latter then you're probably going to fly with the student on days on which they can't yet reasonably practice the launch or approach to progress towards solo, but you can go off and do a bot of actual soaring and even a small cross-country with them. That adds flights and hours to the time before solo.
Chris Rowland[_2_]
June 5th 18, 08:25 AM
Is there a contest to see who can send someone solo the fastest?
In the UK the ATC used to send cadets solo in a tiny number of launches,
something like 20 winch launches. They achieved this by cutting out
everything that wasn't essential, including circuit planning and most
emergencies. Thy were solo but that was all.
The civilian clubs took many more launches, it took me 44 which was pretty
average for a teenager, but had been taught stalling and spinning, launch
failures, circuit planning and soaring. As a result my 4th solo was 20
minutes off the wire for my C certificate.
With the current pre solo syllabus it would be a challenge to get
everything covered in 20 aerotows.
What I tend to tell people after I send them solo is "Now you can learn to
fly". That's how it felt to me, and it still does.
Chris
At 05:24 05 June 2018, Bruce Hoult wrote:
>On Tuesday, June 5, 2018 at 1:55:12 PM UTC+12, CindyB wrote:
>> On Sunday, June 3, 2018 at 8:43:58 PM UTC-7, wrote:
>> > I'm a very experienced power pilot CFI & have soloed hundreds of
>airpla=
>ne student pilots over the years. That said, I'm not as experienced as a
>C=
>FIG.
>> >=20
>>=20
>> me (CindyB change) =09
>> 6:33 PM (less than a minute ago)
>> On Sunday, June 3, 2018 at 8:43:58 PM UTC-7, wrote:
>> > I'm a very experienced power pilot CFI & have soloed hundreds of
>airpla=
>ne student pilots over the years. That said, I'm not as experienced as a
>C=
>FIG.
>> >
>> > I soloed a new student this weekend. He did a spectacula=
>r job. =20
>> >
>> > On line it appears in several places that the average time to solo a
>gl=
>ider is around 40 flights. Is they information accurate? My student
>doesn=
>'t have nearly that many flights.
>> >
>> > Opinions?
>>=20
>> Congrats to the new solo pilot!
>> Opinions on r.a.s.? Ha! Lots of them, but you've got answers from a
>few=
> fine instructors. More than 25 years CFI-G responding here.
>>=20
>> Factors to consider on flight count to a solo:
>> Consistency of training (number of CFIs)
>> Frequency of training (best is alternate days, typical is 1x weekly)
>> Age of student (~25 flites plus 1 per year over age 40)
>> Emotional, physical or intellectual deficits
>> (dominant eye, musculature for controls, fear of flight, etc.)
>> Intellectual prep prior or concurrent with flying (Reading and study)
>> Valid simulator training experience (Condor's Great! Cuts airtime
>respon=
>sibly.)
>> Thoroughness of training syllabus (What variety of emergency prep?)
>> Potential weather variability and scale at solo location.
>> The student's mental outlook, responsibility and openness to ongoing
>tra=
>ining toward the rating.
>> =20
>>=20
>> A lesser impact on flight count is complexity of machine or launch
>method=
>.. The student doesn't know what they don't know. Give them a 2-33 or a
>DG-=
>500 and they will learn rates for desired reactions.
>>=20
>> As the CFI-G, you have to believe they will handle whatever comes their
>w=
>ay during their solo supervision period. Engine/prop/mast complexities if
>s=
>elf-launching. The abruptness of disarray in a botched winch start. The
>ma=
>nagement of slack line and towing position and PT3s of aerotowing -
flight
>=
>as a formation and its necessary communication foibles/weaknesses. =20
>>=20
>> You gave us little insight to allow us to respond with pertinent info.
>Th=
>e gentlemen responded generically, appropriately.
>>=20
>> Aerotow, once a week, variable weather, motivated reader, 2-33 through
>fi=
>xed gear glass ~30:1, typically 12-14 weeks and 30-35 to solo. But I am
>kn=
>own to be thorough on the emergency procedures training.
>> Straight-ahead break, abbrev pattern 2-3 times from different
places,
>=
>downwind landing in 5-8 kts. That's 4 flights. Sprinkled thru the
>experienc=
>e.
>> Full spoiler locked-open landing. Slip to a landing (no spoilers till
>tou=
>ched). A wave-off or two at the top of some tow or other.
>> It keeps them thinking..... not coasting.
>>=20
>> Thanks for being curious. Thanks for teaching.
>>=20
>> Cindy Brickner
>> Mojave, CA
>
>A factor you missed. Is soloing:
>
>- ability to safely launch and execute a circuit to landing on a calm
>windl=
>ess late afternoon "I FLEW AN AIRCRAFT ALL BY MYSELF!"
>
>OR
>
>- ability to safely launch in active thermic (bumpy and/or a bit of wind)
>o=
>r ridge (definitely some wind) conditions and stay up for half an hour.
>
>?
>
>If you're training towards the latter then you're probably going to fly
>wit=
>h the student on days on which they can't yet reasonably practice the
>launc=
>h or approach to progress towards solo, but you can go off and do a bot
of
>=
>actual soaring and even a small cross-country with them. That adds
flights
>=
>and hours to the time before solo.
>
Paul Ruskin[_2_]
June 5th 18, 10:02 AM
Always helpful to have some real numbers...
I did an analysis of flights to solo across my club's membership over a period (sample size 155 first solos).
This is a primarily winch launch club. (I think as has been pointed out the number of flights will be less with pure aerotow).
The average was 63. But I don't think the average is very helpful in this discussion given the huge range that it covered - the std deviation was 38.
What was interesting, and contrary to the received wisdom, was that there was a much smaller correlation with age than might have been expected. There were a few outliers, some older people took a very large number of flights, but on the whole there wasn't a great age effect.
Paul
I have to say that after learning on airtow, Im very glad I went on to do several years of winch launching, I learnt very valuable lessons in flying low,
after simulated cable breaks and highly modified circuits. I would recommend it to any glider pilot.
The acceleration can be a bit intmidating at first, but soon becomes your best friend.
Martin Gregorie[_6_]
June 5th 18, 02:28 PM
On Tue, 05 Jun 2018 04:19:38 -0700, mikestandishmic wrote:
> I have to say that after learning on airtow, Im very glad I went on to
> do several years of winch launching, I learnt very valuable lessons in
> flying low,
> after simulated cable breaks and highly modified circuits. I would
> recommend it to any glider pilot.
> The acceleration can be a bit intmidating at first, but soon becomes
> your best friend.
I learnt to fly on a winch - same club as Paul. I was 52 at the time and
took 80 launches to solo - pretty much in line with the rule of thumb
that was told me "pilot age in years + 30".
This also included a no-instrument launch, circuit and landing plus pre-
solo stall and spin training all - done off the winch in an ASK-21
*without* tail weights because our paid instructor that year knew how to
spin a '21 at our combined cockpit load without them. I should say that
spinning was done after thermal climbs to a suitable altitude - it was a
rather good summer. I might equally have done spin training in a Puchacz
(we had and have one and I was introduced to it at 20th launch) - pre-
solo I regularly flew all our two seaters at the time (T.21, G103,
ASK-21, Puchacz).
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org
Dan Marotta
June 5th 18, 03:26 PM
My 6th launch was my first solo at Dillingham Field, HI (plenty of
military, airline, GA experience).Â* Thirty-two years later, and on my
7th glider, I'm still the guy who launches first.Â* Who cares if I don't
stay up?Â* I'll launch again and have a great day.Â* Too bad I've only got
another 10-15 years left to fly solo...
On 6/4/2018 11:16 PM, Steve Koerner wrote:
> 15 starts here. Then three months later off doing intentional cross country. And 42 years more it's still damn fun. Hope the new inductee goes crazy with soaring too.
--
Dan, 5J
On Tuesday, June 5, 2018 at 7:26:22 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> My 6th launch was my first solo at Dillingham Field, HI (plenty of
> military, airline, GA experience).Â* Thirty-two years later, and on my
> 7th glider, I'm still the guy who launches first.Â* Who cares if I don't
> stay up?Â* I'll launch again and have a great day.Â* Too bad I've only got
> another 10-15 years left to fly solo...
>
> On 6/4/2018 11:16 PM, Steve Koerner wrote:
> > 15 starts here. Then three months later off doing intentional cross country. And 42 years more it's still damn fun. Hope the new inductee goes crazy with soaring too.
>
> --
> Dan, 5J
Thanks for all the info & opinions. The info is very useful. Here's additional info.
The student was early thirties & had already completed the King PP ground school. He was very motivated. It was all aero tows, he flew three intense weekends. He had 21 flights when I soloed him & around 9 total hours. We had good lift so were able to do many stalls, steep spirals, etc.
Being that we are a commercial operation we can do accelerated training.
Dan Marotta
June 6th 18, 02:54 PM
That is terrific for ab initio!
On 6/5/2018 9:41 PM, wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 5, 2018 at 7:26:22 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> My 6th launch was my first solo at Dillingham Field, HI (plenty of
>> military, airline, GA experience).Â* Thirty-two years later, and on my
>> 7th glider, I'm still the guy who launches first.Â* Who cares if I don't
>> stay up?Â* I'll launch again and have a great day.Â* Too bad I've only got
>> another 10-15 years left to fly solo...
>>
>> On 6/4/2018 11:16 PM, Steve Koerner wrote:
>>> 15 starts here. Then three months later off doing intentional cross country. And 42 years more it's still damn fun. Hope the new inductee goes crazy with soaring too.
>> --
>> Dan, 5J
> Thanks for all the info & opinions. The info is very useful. Here's additional info.
>
> The student was early thirties & had already completed the King PP ground school. He was very motivated. It was all aero tows, he flew three intense weekends. He had 21 flights when I soloed him & around 9 total hours. We had good lift so were able to do many stalls, steep spirals, etc.
>
> Being that we are a commercial operation we can do accelerated training.
--
Dan, 5J
Martin Gregorie[_6_]
June 6th 18, 04:48 PM
On Wed, 06 Jun 2018 07:54:26 -0600, Dan Marotta wrote:
> That is terrific for ab initio!
>
Fastest I ab initio know of is a student who soloed off the winch on a 5
day course last year at my club's flatland site. I first met her when she
was flying dual on a rather 'interesting' hill site:
http://edensoaring.co.uk/ - check out how they describe their field!
This was during a club expedition at the start of October. She seemed to
handle that combination of small field and new glider type (ASK-13) well.
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org
On Wednesday, June 6, 2018 at 10:48:23 AM UTC-5, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Wed, 06 Jun 2018 07:54:26 -0600, Dan Marotta wrote:
>
> > That is terrific for ab initio!
> >
> Fastest I ab initio know of is a student who soloed off the winch on a 5
> day course last year at my club's flatland site. I first met her when she
> was flying dual on a rather 'interesting' hill site:
> http://edensoaring.co.uk/ - check out how they describe their field!
> This was during a club expedition at the start of October. She seemed to
> handle that combination of small field and new glider type (ASK-13) well.
>
>
> --
> Martin | martin at
> Gregorie | gregorie dot org
Martin, she beat me by two days. I soloed on the 7th day and the 28th winch launch at Oerlinghausen, Germany, a well known publicly funded gliding school. Proud to say I was 1st in my group of 7 to solo (in Germany that means you do 3 consecutive flights). I was 30 years old. All flights were done on the winch, glider was ASK 13.
Herb
Martin Gregorie[_6_]
June 6th 18, 10:45 PM
On Wed, 06 Jun 2018 14:23:56 -0700, herbkilian wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 6, 2018 at 10:48:23 AM UTC-5, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>> On Wed, 06 Jun 2018 07:54:26 -0600, Dan Marotta wrote:
>>
>> > That is terrific for ab initio!
>> >
>> Fastest I ab initio know of is a student who soloed off the winch on a
>> 5 day course last year at my club's flatland site. I first met her when
>> she was flying dual on a rather 'interesting' hill site:
>> http://edensoaring.co.uk/ - check out how they describe their field!
>> This was during a club expedition at the start of October. She seemed
>> to handle that combination of small field and new glider type (ASK-13)
>> well.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Martin | martin at Gregorie | gregorie dot org
>
> Martin, she beat me by two days. I soloed on the 7th day and the 28th
> winch launch at Oerlinghausen, Germany, a well known publicly funded
> gliding school. Proud to say I was 1st in my group of 7 to solo (in
> Germany that means you do 3 consecutive flights). I was 30 years old.
> All flights were done on the winch, glider was ASK 13.
> Herb
Great stuff, Herb
She almost certainly soloed in an ASK-21, possibly/probably with a few
flights in our Puchacz included since spin training is mandatory here and
the Puchacz spins a lot more readily than an ASK-21. My club hasn't had
ASK-13s since I joined it but IIRC I had a couple of flights in a '13 at
Nympsfield a few months after I soloed and then never saw one again until
I first visited Eden Soaring. I wasn't fond of them at first, but after a
bit of ridge running I now appreciate them a bit more: easy to fly and
not as forgiving as a '21.
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org
SoaringXCellence
June 6th 18, 11:23 PM
All,
As a pilot examiner (USA) for gliders and a 22-year glider instructor, I'd like to add a few points:
In the USA just being able to take-off fly well and land does not fulfill the solo flight requirements in FAR 61.87, there are 19 items! The requirements are to train and LOG the training in each of the 19 elements. I find that many logbooks are not complete with regard to the accurate logging of the training and are often very vague as to what was trained.
I had a student come to me for instruction, who had been signed off for solo, but had never done a stall!! That clearly doesn't meet the requirements and or any logic for safety.
One of the items, #13, is for training in the assembly and dis-assembly of gliders. That one seems to be often left until after the solo. I also find that occasionally I need to contact the CFIG to insure that the training has actually been done, and to get an entry in the logbook to the attest to the training. This is during the practical test!
Another, #18 Procedures and techniques for thermalling, is often weak even in the Commercial pilots that come to me. Proper entry to a thermal, right-of-way and centering are the minimum I expect to be trained, actually being able to gain altitude is a bonus.
Check out the list, I think you'll see several areas that are frequently only lightly touched.
All these omissions are more frequent when the glider operation does not have a closely monitored training process or there are frequent changes of instructor.
OK, I'm stepping down from my soapbox,
Mike Bamberg
In Australia we have this thing called a post solo syllabus, where advanced thermalling and things like rigging are covered.
I don’t see any need to train these pre solo.
Papa3[_2_]
June 7th 18, 04:13 AM
Some good dialogue in the thread. The winch discussions reminded me that I actually had a mix of aerotow and autotow (poor man's winch) in my early training. The auto tow was fantastic toward the end of my pre-solo training, since I could shoot 3-4 patterns in a row in rapid succession. In my club, it was very hard to get more than 2 aerotows in a single session due to the schedule constraints. With auto-tow, we could turn around 4 flights in one hour easily during a weekday without needing the towpilot.
So, do many European clubs have a formal process to do something like this? Use aerotow to get some air-time early on to develop the basic stick and rudder skills followed by winch to enable multiple patterns (circuits) cost-effectively.
Just curious,
P3
On Tuesday, June 5, 2018 at 5:30:12 PM UTC+10, Chris Rowland wrote:
> Is there a contest to see who can send someone solo the fastest?
>
> In the UK the ATC used to send cadets solo in a tiny number of launches,
> something like 20 winch launches. They achieved this by cutting out
> everything that wasn't essential, including circuit planning and most
> emergencies. Thy were solo but that was all.
>
> The civilian clubs took many more launches, it took me 44 which was pretty
> average for a teenager, but had been taught stalling and spinning, launch
> failures, circuit planning and soaring. As a result my 4th solo was 20
> minutes off the wire for my C certificate.
>
> With the current pre solo syllabus it would be a challenge to get
> everything covered in 20 aerotows.
>
> What I tend to tell people after I send them solo is "Now you can learn to
> fly". That's how it felt to me, and it still does.
>
> Chris
I soloed in November 1972 with the Air Training Corp at RAF No. 1 Gliding School (I think it was called) at RAF Spitalgate, near Grantham in Lincolnshire (home town of one Margaret Thatcher).
I was the slowest of a group of four, all aged around 17. I can't remember the exact number of flights, and I have long lost the logbook, but I seem to recall that we were scheduled for 30 flights and the others made three solos within that; I took an extra half dozen or so to be cleared.
The training was in a Slingsby T-31 (open cockpit, high wing, tandem). It was all done off 1200 ft winch launches and sleigh rides - no lift in the English flatlands at that time of year. The airfield was so large that we never crossed the boundaries.
We definitely did premature launch terminations and stalls, but to this day I still have the image in my mind of what spin training looked like from the front seat. Being young and fearless I knew no better, but I shudder now at the thought of intentionally spinning from circuit height. Granted, a T-31 doesn't lose a lot, but recovering at 600 ft is bit close to the bone....
The winch signalling was done with an Aldis lamp!
My other great memory, apart from the first solo of course, was my third. I did two solos one afternoon and then the day ended. We awoke the next morning to a blanket of snow. It was the end of the course and I thought I'd had it. The instructors said "What's the problem, there's not a breath of wind". So off I went for a check ride followed by a solo circuit and a smooth landing with the skid swishing in the snow. Never done that since.
-tnd
--
This
message is intended for the addressee named and may contain
confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, please
delete it and notify the sender. Views expressed in this message are
those
of the individual sender, and are not necessarily the views of
their
organisation.
Richard McLean[_2_]
June 7th 18, 07:32 AM
On Thursday, 7 June 2018 06:23:14 UTC+8, SoaringXCellence wrote:
> All,
>
> As a pilot examiner (USA) for gliders and a 22-year glider instructor, I'd like to add a few points:
>
> In the USA just being able to take-off fly well and land does not fulfill the solo flight requirements in FAR 61.87, there are 19 items! The requirements are to train and LOG the training in each of the 19 elements. I find that many logbooks are not complete with regard to the accurate logging of the training and are often very vague as to what was trained.
>
> I had a student come to me for instruction, who had been signed off for solo, but had never done a stall!! That clearly doesn't meet the requirements and or any logic for safety.
>
> One of the items, #13, is for training in the assembly and dis-assembly of gliders. That one seems to be often left until after the solo. I also find that occasionally I need to contact the CFIG to insure that the training has actually been done, and to get an entry in the logbook to the attest to the training. This is during the practical test!
>
> Another, #18 Procedures and techniques for thermalling, is often weak even in the Commercial pilots that come to me. Proper entry to a thermal, right-of-way and centering are the minimum I expect to be trained, actually being able to gain altitude is a bonus.
>
> Check out the list, I think you'll see several areas that are frequently only lightly touched.
>
> All these omissions are more frequent when the glider operation does not have a closely monitored training process or there are frequent changes of instructor.
>
> OK, I'm stepping down from my soapbox,
>
> Mike Bamberg
Agree mike, solo is a standard not a number of flights. Even the best students need to demonstrate consistency & good judgement over time & different conditions. Trying to get them to solo in the minimum number of launches for commercial or ego reasons is ill-advised. And the inevitable conversations around how few flights you went solo in don't serve any purpose other than to egos .. maybe you were good & maybe your instructor didn't cover everything as thoroughly as they should have .. either way, it's not really relevant now!
Richard McLean
Martin Gregorie[_6_]
June 7th 18, 11:10 AM
On Wed, 06 Jun 2018 20:13:45 -0700, Papa3 wrote:
> So, do many European clubs have a formal process to do something like
> this? Use aerotow to get some air-time early on to develop the basic
> stick and rudder skills followed by winch to enable multiple patterns
> (circuits) cost-effectively.
>
My club, Cambridge, does almost all training on the winch. I think the
only aero-tows I had pre-solo were for spinning exercises, and that was
and is still pretty much the norm. I didn't get an aero tow solo sign-off
until I'd been solo for a year, and I only worked for that because I knew
I'd be flying on your side of the pond that October - 2001: I was at Lost
Hills, CA for the World Free Flight Champs and Sacramento for the Sierra
Cup and got to fly gliders at Boulder, Avenal, Williams and Minden, so a
good trip from all points of view.
Back then we used a flying list rather than the current booked two-seat
flying system, so there tended to be more people at the launch point. As
a result, if a group of us worked at it we could hit 18 launches an hour
on a two-drum winch but that did require one person dedicated to driving
the cable retrieve truck and another two ground handling helpers - thats
in addition to the usual launch marshal and log keeper - and needs all
student-instructor briefing to be completed before they're at the head of
the two parallel launch queues we normally use. Fun to do!
Now, with booked flying, the reduced waiting time at the launch point
means the experience is better for those learning to fly, but the reduced
number of people at the launch point limits the launch rate to 10 an hour
or less.
> Just curious,
>
Hope that's useful input.
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org
Martin Gregorie[_6_]
June 7th 18, 11:39 AM
On Thu, 07 Jun 2018 10:10:30 +0000, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Wed, 06 Jun 2018 20:13:45 -0700, Papa3 wrote:
>
>> So, do many European clubs have a formal process to do something like
>> this? Use aerotow to get some air-time early on to develop the basic
>> stick and rudder skills followed by winch to enable multiple patterns
>> (circuits) cost-effectively.
>>
> My club, Cambridge, does almost all training on the winch. I think the
> only aero-tows I had pre-solo were for spinning exercises, and that was
> and is still pretty much the norm. I didn't get an aero tow solo
> sign-off until I'd been solo for a year, and I only worked for that
> because I knew I'd be flying on your side of the pond that October -
> 2001: I was at Lost Hills, CA for the World Free Flight Champs and
> Sacramento for the Sierra Cup and got to fly gliders at Boulder, Avenal,
> Williams and Minden, so a good trip from all points of view.
>
> Back then we used a flying list rather than the current booked two-seat
> flying system, so there tended to be more people at the launch point. As
> a result, if a group of us worked at it we could hit 18 launches an hour
> on a two-drum winch but that did require one person dedicated to driving
> the cable retrieve truck and another two ground handling helpers - thats
> in addition to the usual launch marshal and log keeper - and needs all
> student-instructor briefing to be completed before they're at the head
> of the two parallel launch queues we normally use. Fun to do!
>
> Now, with booked flying, the reduced waiting time at the launch point
> means the experience is better for those learning to fly, but the
> reduced number of people at the launch point limits the launch rate to
> 10 an hour or less.
>
>> Just curious,
>>
> Hope that's useful input.
I should have added that the BGA provides a booklet listing the
accomplishments needed to solo. All students have a copy that the
instructor uses to sign off items as they're completed satisfactorily.
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org
Power transition. Soloed after 4 flights in a glider, flight #4 being a simulated rope break. All before lunch on my first day flying gliders.
David Crimmins
June 7th 18, 12:46 PM
At 10:54 07 June 2018, wrote:
>Power transition. Soloed after 4 flights in a glider, flight #4 being a
>simulated rope break. All before lunch on my first day flying gliders.
>
It can be done in one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AiPKrsHql4
Dan Marotta
June 7th 18, 06:10 PM
Way to go, Greg!
Of course it's not about quickly doing a solo takeoff and landing for an
experienced pilot.Â* After my quick solo in Hawaii, I returned to Texas,
joined a club, and underwent the full training - filling all those
squares, so to speak.
On 6/7/2018 4:54 AM, wrote:
> Power transition. Soloed after 4 flights in a glider, flight #4 being a simulated rope break. All before lunch on my first day flying gliders.
--
Dan, 5J
SoaringXCellence
June 8th 18, 01:40 AM
On Thursday, June 7, 2018 at 3:54:17 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> Power transition. Soloed after 4 flights in a glider, flight #4 being a simulated rope break. All before lunch on my first day flying gliders.
Interestingly, the Add-on training to an existing certificate is not defined, except, that the pilot being trained is not a student pilot and therefore, by regulation, none of the "solo" requirements apply. The practical test proficiency and 10 solo flight are all that's required.
Again, with regard to these add-on ratings, there is often MUCH left out of the required knowledge by instructors who specialize in "add-on" training. There is not an additional knowledge test required, so the examiner is often the bearer of sad news when the very experienced airplane pilot cannot discus thermals, and all the other aspects of soaring flight.
But they and take-off and land!
Again stepping down from my soapbox.
Mike
On Thursday, June 7, 2018 at 8:40:12 PM UTC-4, SoaringXCellence wrote:
> On Thursday, June 7, 2018 at 3:54:17 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> > Power transition. Soloed after 4 flights in a glider, flight #4 being a simulated rope break. All before lunch on my first day flying gliders.
>
> Interestingly, the Add-on training to an existing certificate is not defined, except, that the pilot being trained is not a student pilot and therefore, by regulation, none of the "solo" requirements apply. The practical test proficiency and 10 solo flight are all that's required.
>
> Again, with regard to these add-on ratings, there is often MUCH left out of the required knowledge by instructors who specialize in "add-on" training. There is not an additional knowledge test required, so the examiner is often the bearer of sad news when the very experienced airplane pilot cannot discus thermals, and all the other aspects of soaring flight.
>
> But they and take-off and land!
>
> Again stepping down from my soapbox.
>
> Mike
Yup. No written. Soloed on Monday took commercial glider checkride on Friday. Commercial add on requires 20 solo flights. To get all the solos in before checkride I would leave lift land and take another tow. Examiner was a FAA inspector, so free checkride. I know I'm a bad person cause I didn't spend years running wings with an occasional flight to get my license.
Dan Marotta
June 8th 18, 03:44 PM
Yup, took my Commercial flight test with an FAA examiner in the morning
and started hauling passengers that afternoon.Â* It was a good way to
build glider time until I bought my Mosquito and really learned to soar.
On 6/8/2018 5:33 AM, wrote:
> On Thursday, June 7, 2018 at 8:40:12 PM UTC-4, SoaringXCellence wrote:
>> On Thursday, June 7, 2018 at 3:54:17 AM UTC-7, wrote:
>>> Power transition. Soloed after 4 flights in a glider, flight #4 being a simulated rope break. All before lunch on my first day flying gliders.
>> Interestingly, the Add-on training to an existing certificate is not defined, except, that the pilot being trained is not a student pilot and therefore, by regulation, none of the "solo" requirements apply. The practical test proficiency and 10 solo flight are all that's required.
>>
>> Again, with regard to these add-on ratings, there is often MUCH left out of the required knowledge by instructors who specialize in "add-on" training. There is not an additional knowledge test required, so the examiner is often the bearer of sad news when the very experienced airplane pilot cannot discus thermals, and all the other aspects of soaring flight.
>>
>> But they and take-off and land!
>>
>> Again stepping down from my soapbox.
>>
>> Mike
> Yup. No written. Soloed on Monday took commercial glider checkride on Friday. Commercial add on requires 20 solo flights. To get all the solos in before checkride I would leave lift land and take another tow. Examiner was a FAA inspector, so free checkride. I know I'm a bad person cause I didn't spend years running wings with an occasional flight to get my license.
--
Dan, 5J
vBulletin® v3.6.4, Copyright ©2000-2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.