Grand Teton Crash

[Ernst]

Carnage continues, who is next?
https://www.jhnewsandguide.com/news/cops_courts/article_87046564-e466-535c-a04c-b3918ec7dcb9.html

It is sickening, what can we do to stop this?
If it is experience, we would talk about other things.

Thinking about Kristine and her passenger David...

Ernst

[Michael Opitz]

At 03:46 11 June 2018, Ernst wrote:
>Carnage continues, who is next?
>https://www.jhnewsandguide.com/news/cops_courts/article_8704656
4-e466-535c-a04c-b3918ec7dcb9.html
>
>It is sickening, what can we do to stop this?
>If it is experience, we would talk about other things.
>
>Thinking about Kristine and her passenger David...
>
>Ernst
>
Ouch... That makes two from the Cloudstreet video. Condolences to
the families involved, and also Bill Hill and Mark Mocho...

RO

[Nick Kennedy]

So sorry to read about this accident.
Does anyone know about the weather conditions at the time of the accident?
I'm curious if it was windy or stormy.

The NTSB report that came out on the Glider Bob Saunders accident in Telluride Colorado put the blame on the strong summertime stormy weather.
Apparently he was overpowered by a collapsing storm cell above him. They indicated they found nothing wrong with his Stemme motorglider.

[kirk.stant]

On Sunday, June 10, 2018 at 10:46:11 PM UTC-5, Ernst wrote:
> Carnage continues, who is next?
> https://www.jhnewsandguide.com/news/cops_courts/article_87046564-e466-535c-a04c-b3918ec7dcb9.html
>
> It is sickening, what can we do to stop this?
> If it is experience, we would talk about other things.
>
> Thinking about Kristine and her passenger David...
>
> Ernst

Carnage? No, a tragic accident.

Look up the definition of Carnage. Using that term demeans the memory of the unfortunate victims.

Would you have said the same if they had died in a car accident?

Kirk

[Bob T]

On Monday, June 11, 2018 at 8:43:33 AM UTC-6, Nick Kennedy wrote:
> So sorry to read about this accident.
> Does anyone know about the weather conditions at the time of the accident?
> I'm curious if it was windy or stormy.
>
> The NTSB report that came out on the Glider Bob Saunders accident in Telluride Colorado put the blame on the strong summertime stormy weather.
> Apparently he was overpowered by a collapsing storm cell above him. They indicated they found nothing wrong with his Stemme motorglider.

Nick,

The day and time glider Bob went in, Loy and I were in Aztec and observed what I thought must have been the most intense / tallest OD I had ever seen over the San Jans, and figured it was probably between Purgatory and Telluride, thinking I was sure glad I wasn't flying there then. When we heard of the crash, I felt pretty sure Bob must have hit a severe downdraft shear. I'd feel a pretty good guess would be sudden down wind shear in this latest crash.
19

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

My hats off to the commercial pilots and CFI's out there that often times are the lifeblood of the glider operations. These operations depend on people walking in the door to buy a ride and the ride pilots many times take that ride on a day when the private owners, who can choose when they want to fly, would choose not to fly! These pilots fly those rides to pay the bills, to keep the customer happy, and damnit, it is business hours we are open.. These pilots are unsung, but so very important. Very rarely, one of these experienced pilots comes up against a force they did not recognize in time. My heart goes out to the families of the lost and to the pilots whom safely fly rides everyday in most conditions many would not venture.

On Tuesday, June 12, 2018 at 6:22:14 PM UTC-7, Bob T wrote:
> On Monday, June 11, 2018 at 8:43:33 AM UTC-6, Nick Kennedy wrote:
> > So sorry to read about this accident.
> > Does anyone know about the weather conditions at the time of the accident?
> > I'm curious if it was windy or stormy.
> >
> > The NTSB report that came out on the Glider Bob Saunders accident in Telluride Colorado put the blame on the strong summertime stormy weather.
> > Apparently he was overpowered by a collapsing storm cell above him. They indicated they found nothing wrong with his Stemme motorglider.
>
> Nick,
>
> The day and time glider Bob went in, Loy and I were in Aztec and observed what I thought must have been the most intense / tallest OD I had ever seen over the San Jans, and figured it was probably between Purgatory and Telluride, thinking I was sure glad I wasn't flying there then. When we heard of the crash, I felt pretty sure Bob must have hit a severe downdraft shear.. I'd feel a pretty good guess would be sudden down wind shear in this latest crash.
> 19

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

Agreed, sad day anytime we lose humans doing something.
Tough on the families and friends.
In the US, also tough on anyone even remotely close since some will be "lawyering up" to see who pays, even if was just an unfortunate incident.

Condolences to everyone affected.

[Steve Koerner]

Very very sad to read of this accident.

This report has the accident occurring at 12:00.

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=212026


From Weather Underground, wind on June 9 at 11:56 at Driggs was 21 mph gusting to 25 mph, sky clear. Wind in the nearby mountains at 10,800 ft might have been greater and might have been more gusty:

https://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KDIJ/2018/6/9/DailyHistory.html?req_city=&req_state=&req_statename=&reqdb.zip=&reqdb.magic=&reqdb.wmo=

[Ron Gleason]

On Thursday, 14 June 2018 13:05:14 UTC-6, Steve Koerner wrote:
> Very very sad to read of this accident.
>
> This report has the accident occurring at 12:00.
>
> https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=212026
>
>
> From Weather Underground, wind on June 9 at 11:56 at Driggs was 21 mph gusting to 25 mph, sky clear. Wind in the nearby mountains at 10,800 ft might have been greater and might have been more gusty:
>
> https://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KDIJ/2018/6/9/DailyHistory.html?req_city=&req_state=&req_statename=&reqdb.zip=&reqdb.magic=&reqdb.wmo=

Steve, I looked around online for any weather stations on the mountain peaks, mainly Snotel, but could not find any or they are offline for the non-winter months. The station on top of the tram Jackson Hole was not reporting and I am not sure if it has historical data.

Here in Northern UT we had strong pre-frontal S/SW winds before the passing of a cold front from the NW Saturday night.

Sad, sad situation

Ron Gleason

[Renny[_2_]]

On Thursday, June 14, 2018 at 1:17:34 PM UTC-6, Ron Gleason wrote:
> On Thursday, 14 June 2018 13:05:14 UTC-6, Steve Koerner wrote:
> > Very very sad to read of this accident.
> >
> > This report has the accident occurring at 12:00.
> >
> > https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=212026
> >
> >
> > From Weather Underground, wind on June 9 at 11:56 at Driggs was 21 mph gusting to 25 mph, sky clear. Wind in the nearby mountains at 10,800 ft might have been greater and might have been more gusty:
> >
> > https://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KDIJ/2018/6/9/DailyHistory..html?req_city=&req_state=&req_statename=&reqdb.zip=&reqdb.magic=&reqdb.wmo=
>
> Steve, I looked around online for any weather stations on the mountain peaks, mainly Snotel, but could not find any or they are offline for the non-winter months. The station on top of the tram Jackson Hole was not reporting and I am not sure if it has historical data.
>
> Here in Northern UT we had strong pre-frontal S/SW winds before the passing of a cold front from the NW Saturday night.
>
> Sad, sad situation
>
> Ron Gleason

There is some info on the weather in this article....

https://www.jhnewsandguide.com/news/cops_courts/article_1fd2db35-1c84-5e6f-8021-605451298d23.html

[George Haeh]

In my glider TAS and Groundspeed along with the usual IGC file data are fed to my Oudie in one second intervals. That data can be used to quantify longitudinal and vertical wind shears.

Does anybody know what would be recorded in the accident glider?

[Bob T]

On Thursday, June 14, 2018 at 8:08:23 PM UTC-6, George Haeh wrote:
> In my glider TAS and Groundspeed along with the usual IGC file data are fed to my Oudie in one second intervals. That data can be used to quantify longitudinal and vertical wind shears.
>
> Does anybody know what would be recorded in the accident glider?

Sad indeed. Clear air, cloudy, or stormy, This is why I spent a long time researching and then writing the 10 page article in Soaring Magazine a few years ago titled "Rogue Air". Every once in a while the air can sneak up on pilots and cause an upset, sometimes fatal. My upset came in clear air with a few cu. Luckily, I pulled out at about 500' agl and was surprised the wings stayed on. It just wasn't my day to go. For others, it's their time, and our time to be sad, yet remember all the good of those that have moved on.

http://www.danlj.org/~danlj/Soaring/SoaringRx/2013-01-Rogue-Air-Oct2014-p20-29_Bob_Thompson.pdf

19

[Renny[_2_]]

On Friday, June 15, 2018 at 2:03:19 PM UTC-6, Bob T wrote:
> On Thursday, June 14, 2018 at 8:08:23 PM UTC-6, George Haeh wrote:
> > In my glider TAS and Groundspeed along with the usual IGC file data are fed to my Oudie in one second intervals. That data can be used to quantify longitudinal and vertical wind shears.
> >
> > Does anybody know what would be recorded in the accident glider?
>
> Sad indeed. Clear air, cloudy, or stormy, This is why I spent a long time researching and then writing the 10 page article in Soaring Magazine a few years ago titled "Rogue Air". Every once in a while the air can sneak up on pilots and cause an upset, sometimes fatal. My upset came in clear air with a few cu. Luckily, I pulled out at about 500' agl and was surprised the wings stayed on. It just wasn't my day to go. For others, it's their time, and our time to be sad, yet remember all the good of those that have moved on.
>
> http://www.danlj.org/~danlj/Soaring/SoaringRx/2013-01-Rogue-Air-Oct2014-p20-29_Bob_Thompson.pdf
>
> 19

Bob - Your article is excellent and I do believe it may explain a lot when it comes to some accidents and incidents in recent years. I have no idea if it was a factor in this terrible accident at the Grand Teton National Park, but we have all heard about (and perhaps personally experienced) accidents and incidents in which the cause of the "upset" could really never be definitively determined. I believe that in many cases something really out of the ordinary "happened" and I also believe that "Rogue Air," that no one ever "saw," may be the real cause of quite a few accidents. Thanks for doing all of the research and for writing it! Be careful out there! Renny

[BobW]

On 6/15/2018 2:03 PM, Bob T wrote:
<Snip...>
>
> Sad indeed. Clear air, cloudy, or stormy, This is why I spent a long time
> researching and then writing the 10 page article in Soaring Magazine a few
> years ago titled "Rogue Air". Every once in a while the air can sneak up
> on pilots and cause an upset, sometimes fatal. My upset came in clear air
> with a few cu. Luckily, I pulled out at about 500' agl and was surprised
> the wings stayed on. It just wasn't my day to go. For others, it's their
> time, and our time to be sad, yet remember all the good of those that have
> moved on.
>
> http://www.danlj.org/~danlj/Soaring/SoaringRx/2013-01-Rogue-Air-Oct2014-p20-29_Bob_Thompson.pdf

Excellent article with 'some darn good pictures' as well! Well worth Joe
Glider Pilot's reading time and continuing ponderation. I base my assertion on
having encountered 'rogue air' a number of times myself in gliders, and being
fortunate enough to not have bent or broken anything (or died, humorless
laugh) in those encounters...though two instances were 'somewhat in doubt' in
my mind *while* they were happening. Eyeball defocusing turbulence and 3,000+
fpm sink will definitely get your attention.

Bob W.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

I just read Bob Thompson's excellent article on "Rogue Air". Reminds me of an encounter I had in a Inyo mountains thermal. I was maneuvering in a canyon running up the mountains, had a nice thermal, good climb rate, it even seemed round. All the sudden I was picked up by what felt like a force grabbing the tail of my ASW-24, nose pointing down perhaps 70-80 degrees and the glider was pulled skyward for two thousand feet while still pointing downward. At the top of the thrust I recovered from the unusual attitude and had a great day flying. Learned later we lost glider at the switchbacks that same day. Two other great articles to familiarize yourself with are "Don't Smack the Mountain" by Henry Coombs and JJ Sinclair's article on the same topic (JJ if you see this post please post a link to your article.)
Stay safe guys and gals!
Jon

On Friday, June 15, 2018 at 9:13:49 PM UTC-7, BobW wrote:
> On 6/15/2018 2:03 PM, Bob T wrote:
> <Snip...>
> >
> > Sad indeed. Clear air, cloudy, or stormy, This is why I spent a long time
> > researching and then writing the 10 page article in Soaring Magazine a few
> > years ago titled "Rogue Air". Every once in a while the air can sneak up
> > on pilots and cause an upset, sometimes fatal. My upset came in clear air
> > with a few cu. Luckily, I pulled out at about 500' agl and was surprised
> > the wings stayed on. It just wasn't my day to go. For others, it's their
> > time, and our time to be sad, yet remember all the good of those that have
> > moved on.
> >
> > http://www.danlj.org/~danlj/Soaring/SoaringRx/2013-01-Rogue-Air-Oct2014-p20-29_Bob_Thompson.pdf
>
> Excellent article with 'some darn good pictures' as well! Well worth Joe
> Glider Pilot's reading time and continuing ponderation. I base my assertion on
> having encountered 'rogue air' a number of times myself in gliders, and being
> fortunate enough to not have bent or broken anything (or died, humorless
> laugh) in those encounters...though two instances were 'somewhat in doubt' in
> my mind *while* they were happening. Eyeball defocusing turbulence and 3,000+
> fpm sink will definitely get your attention.
>
> Bob W.
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> https://www.avg.com

[[email protected]]

https://www.dg-flugzeugbau.de/en/library/dont-smack-the-mountain

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

The correct information on articles are JJ Sinclair's excellent article "Don't Smack the Mountain", and Henry Combs article entitled "That Beautiful Mountain and Her Sinister Trap: A Possible Explanation for Some Unexplained Ridge-Soaring Crashes". Not sure why i couldn't remember and thus transposed. Both are a wealth of information.

> On Friday, June 15, 2018 at 9:13:49 PM UTC-7, BobW wrote:
> > On 6/15/2018 2:03 PM, Bob T wrote:
> > <Snip...>
> > >
> > > Sad indeed. Clear air, cloudy, or stormy, This is why I spent a long time
> > > researching and then writing the 10 page article in Soaring Magazine a few
> > > years ago titled "Rogue Air". Every once in a while the air can sneak up
> > > on pilots and cause an upset, sometimes fatal. My upset came in clear air
> > > with a few cu. Luckily, I pulled out at about 500' agl and was surprised
> > > the wings stayed on. It just wasn't my day to go. For others, it's their
> > > time, and our time to be sad, yet remember all the good of those that have
> > > moved on.
> > >
> > > http://www.danlj.org/~danlj/Soaring/SoaringRx/2013-01-Rogue-Air-Oct2014-p20-29_Bob_Thompson.pdf
> >
> > Excellent article with 'some darn good pictures' as well! Well worth Joe
> > Glider Pilot's reading time and continuing ponderation. I base my assertion on
> > having encountered 'rogue air' a number of times myself in gliders, and being
> > fortunate enough to not have bent or broken anything (or died, humorless
> > laugh) in those encounters...though two instances were 'somewhat in doubt' in
> > my mind *while* they were happening. Eyeball defocusing turbulence and 3,000+
> > fpm sink will definitely get your attention.
> >
> > Bob W.
> >
> > ---
> > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> > https://www.avg.com

[[email protected]]

On Monday, June 18, 2018 at 10:31:51 AM UTC-7, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> The correct information on articles are JJ Sinclair's excellent article "Don't Smack the Mountain", and Henry Combs article entitled "That Beautiful Mountain and Her Sinister Trap: A Possible Explanation for Some Unexplained Ridge-Soaring Crashes". Not sure why i couldn't remember and thus transposed. Both are a wealth of information.
>
> > On Friday, June 15, 2018 at 9:13:49 PM UTC-7, BobW wrote:
> > > On 6/15/2018 2:03 PM, Bob T wrote:
> > > <Snip...>
> > > >
> > > > Sad indeed. Clear air, cloudy, or stormy, This is why I spent a long time
> > > > researching and then writing the 10 page article in Soaring Magazine a few
> > > > years ago titled "Rogue Air". Every once in a while the air can sneak up
> > > > on pilots and cause an upset, sometimes fatal. My upset came in clear air
> > > > with a few cu. Luckily, I pulled out at about 500' agl and was surprised
> > > > the wings stayed on. It just wasn't my day to go. For others, it's their
> > > > time, and our time to be sad, yet remember all the good of those that have
> > > > moved on.
> > > >
> > > > http://www.danlj.org/~danlj/Soaring/SoaringRx/2013-01-Rogue-Air-Oct2014-p20-29_Bob_Thompson.pdf
> > >
> > > Excellent article with 'some darn good pictures' as well! Well worth Joe
> > > Glider Pilot's reading time and continuing ponderation. I base my assertion on
> > > having encountered 'rogue air' a number of times myself in gliders, and being
> > > fortunate enough to not have bent or broken anything (or died, humorless
> > > laugh) in those encounters...though two instances were 'somewhat in doubt' in
> > > my mind *while* they were happening. Eyeball defocusing turbulence and 3,000+
> > > fpm sink will definitely get your attention.
> > >
> > > Bob W.
> > >
> > > ---
> > > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> > > https://www.avg.com

Here's some Links to those two articles:

The first is by John Sinclair, well known Northern California cross country and competition soaring pilot, sailplane builder and repair man (the article is at the end of the Valley Soaring Newsletter):
http://valleysoaring.net/pk/windsock/2007-9/1of2%20-%20Sep%2007-v21.pdf


The second is by now legendary soaring pilot and one of the engineers who designed the A-12, YF-12 and SR-71, Henry Combs:
https://ee.stanford.edu/~hellman/soaring/Combs.pdf

[[email protected]]

The "Rogue Air" article has a picture of what Bob T calls a "spinner". I've heard them called Mustache clouds and saw (what I assume was) one just the other day. Oddly, one end had a loop in it so it looked more like a curved sewing needle than a mustache. It had me wondering how in the world it got that shape. No pictures as I was driving on an expressway.

[Renny[_2_]]

On Sunday, June 10, 2018 at 9:46:11 PM UTC-6, Ernst wrote:
> Carnage continues, who is next?
> https://www.jhnewsandguide.com/news/cops_courts/article_87046564-e466-535c-a04c-b3918ec7dcb9.html
>
> It is sickening, what can we do to stop this?
> If it is experience, we would talk about other things.
>
> Thinking about Kristine and her passenger David...
>
> Ernst

The NTSB prelim report has now been posted....
https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/ReportGeneratorFile.ashx?EventID=20180611X95129&AKey=1&RType=Prelim&IType=FA