New low budget two seater

[Tom[_22_]]

Hi!
We are trying to get new two seater from various funds for our club. Most of the funds force to buy new glider.
Can you please help us a little bit with market research and suggest low budget two seater?
Thank you all!

[[email protected]]

I think a new "low budget two seater" is not really existing. At the "low end" of the production two-seat gliders, you have:

PW-6U (http://www.szdjezow.com.pl/) - not sure it is still in production, relatively low performance, good for spin training.

Perkoz (http://szd.com.pl/fr/products/szd-54-2-perkoz) - in production, good performance, good for spin training, adaptable for uncertifed hand controls.

ASK-21 (https://www.alexander-schleicher.de/en/flugzeuge/ask-21/) - in production, relatively low performance, spin training only with special mod, adaptable for certified hand controls.

DG-1001 Club (https://www.dg-flugzeugbau.de/en/aircrafts/dg-1001/dg-1001club) - in production, good performance, good for spin training.

[Tom[_22_]]

Thank you very much for your very useful answer Steph!

> I think a new "low budget two seater" is not really existing. At the "low end" of the production two-seat gliders, you have:

[BruceGreeff]

On 2018/06/13 11:24, wrote:
> I think a new "low budget two seater" is not really existing. At the "low end" of the production two-seat gliders, you have:
>
> PW-6U (http://www.szdjezow.com.pl/) - not sure it is still in production, relatively low performance, good for spin training.
>
> Perkoz (http://szd.com.pl/fr/products/szd-54-2-perkoz) - in production, good performance, good for spin training, adaptable for uncertifed hand controls.
>
> ASK-21 (https://www.alexander-schleicher.de/en/flugzeuge/ask-21/) - in production, relatively low performance, spin training only with special mod, adaptable for certified hand controls.
>
> DG-1001 Club (https://www.dg-flugzeugbau.de/en/aircrafts/dg-1001/dg-1001club) - in production, good performance, good for spin training.
>
There is also the LAK20 - which is available as a pure or motorised
glider. Good performance, good handling - the 23m version would be
comparable to the Duo - though a lot cheaper...
http://lak.aviaserv.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=579&Itemid=143

[[email protected]]

I'm not sure the Lak-20 is still in production. The current website http://lak.lt/ only mentions the single-seaters Mini-Lak, Lak-17B and Lak-19...

[Paul T[_4_]]

Blaniks? http://home.nwi.net/~blanikam/ba/blanik.htm

PW6U still being produced =probably the cheapest new 'glass' 2 seater.

[John Foster]

On Wednesday, June 13, 2018 at 1:35:01 AM UTC-6, Tom wrote:
> Hi!
> We are trying to get new two seater from various funds for our club. Most of the funds force to buy new glider.
> Can you please help us a little bit with market research and suggest low budget two seater?
> Thank you all!

This is of interest to me too. Here in the USA there don't seem to be many "affordable" options. If you are looking at a glider under $30,000, then about the only option is the ever-aging fleet of Schweizer 2-33 gliders, which have quite low performance. Even then, if you can find one for sale, it will still run you around $15,000. You may get lucky and find a glass ship in fair to poor condition for $30,000, but otherwise you are most likely looking at a used Grob 103 in the $45,000 range. It seems anything else is upwards of $75,000 for a used glider. And you won't get anything new for under $100,000.

There is a small group of us in MT that are looking to start a new glider club, but acquiring a club glider (two-seater) with a very small budget is something that is a real hurdle to climb. There just aren't a lot of good options here in the US. I really wish someone here would design and build a good tough and affordable training glider that could step in the gap that the ever shrinking fleet of 2-33s is leaving.

[Tom[_22_]]

> Blaniks? http://home.nwi.net/~blanikam/ba/blanik.htm

Yes, why not if they still produce L13.

> PW6U still being produced =probably the cheapest new 'glass' 2 seater.

I will contact the manufacturer.

Thank you, Paul!

[Tom[_22_]]

> This is of interest to me too. Here in the USA there don't seem to be many "affordable" options. If you are looking at a glider under $30,000

Although little bit off-topic, but yesterday I was looking to buy this old bird>
http://www.segelflug.de/osclass/index.php?page=item&id=26202
Yes, I know it is older than me, but it fly :-)

> then about the only option is the ever-aging fleet of Schweizer 2-33 gliders,

Thanks, John. Will check this too.

[Tom[_22_]]

Contacted manufacturer, they do not produce two-seater :-(

On Wednesday, June 13, 2018 at 9:57:57 PM UTC+2, wrote:
> I'm not sure the Lak-20 is still in production. The current website http://lak.lt/ only mentions the single-seaters Mini-Lak, Lak-17B and Lak-19...

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Thu, 14 Jun 2018 00:24:41 -0700, Tom wrote:

>> This is of interest to me too. Here in the USA there don't seem to be
>> many "affordable" options. If you are looking at a glider under
>> $30,000
>
> Although little bit off-topic, but yesterday I was looking to buy this
> old bird>
> http://www.segelflug.de/osclass/index.php?page=item&id=26202 Yes, I know
> it is older than me, but it fly :-)
>
>> then about the only option is the ever-aging fleet of Schweizer 2-33
>> gliders,
>
> Thanks, John. Will check this too.

If there are any K-13s in the USA, they'd be worth a look - there are
still quite a lot being used by UK clubs including Lasham. They are
better than the K-7 for one main reason: the instructor's view is quite
restricted in a K-7. Look at that linked photo and/or listen to those
who've instructed in them. This is not an issue in the K-13.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[[email protected]]

And ASK-13 are fantastic for spinning.

[Senna Van den Bosch]

Op donderdag 14 juni 2018 12:26:00 UTC+2 schreef Martin Gregorie:
> On Thu, 14 Jun 2018 00:24:41 -0700, Tom wrote:
>
> >> This is of interest to me too. Here in the USA there don't seem to be
> >> many "affordable" options. If you are looking at a glider under
> >> $30,000
> >
> > Although little bit off-topic, but yesterday I was looking to buy this
> > old bird>
> > http://www.segelflug.de/osclass/index.php?page=item&id=26202 Yes, I know
> > it is older than me, but it fly :-)
> >
> >> then about the only option is the ever-aging fleet of Schweizer 2-33
> >> gliders,
> >
> > Thanks, John. Will check this too.
>
> If there are any K-13s in the USA, they'd be worth a look - there are
> still quite a lot being used by UK clubs including Lasham. They are
> better than the K-7 for one main reason: the instructor's view is quite
> restricted in a K-7. Look at that linked photo and/or listen to those
> who've instructed in them. This is not an issue in the K-13.
>
>
> --
> Martin | martin at
> Gregorie | gregorie dot org

I agree with K13's, very easy, good view,... Our club has 2 K13's for early training and 2 G103 Twins (2 and 3) for advanced training.

[[email protected]]

The ASK-13 is certainly an excellent trainer, but:
it is no longer available new (the most recent must be more than 30 years old);
it has one big practical problem: the very limited load it can carry. We have two in my club, the best one can legally carry 168 kg (370 lbs). A bit low for the current generation of pilots...

[Paul T[_4_]]

At 07:20 14 June 2018, Tom wrote:
>> Blaniks? http://home.nwi.net/~blanikam/ba/blanik.htm
>
>Yes, why not if they still produce L13.
>
>> PW6U still being produced =probably the cheapest new 'glass' 2
seater.
>
>I will contact the manufacturer.
>
>Thank you, Paul!
>

Producig the L23 Super Blanik, as well as reconditioned L-13's.
Don't know what has happened to the L23NG - this was an updated L-
23 Super Blanik - was at Aero a few years ago.

[Charles Longley]

Sir,
L23 NG is a modification of L 23 original design what we plan to develop and put to the market during next two/ three years. At this moment it is in study phase. It is proposed as metal basic trainer glider.
Expected price is projected for 60000 USD for basic configuration.
At this moment we finalize retrofit program for L13 original design with extension of safety life of old fleet.
Best regards

Vaclav Krizek
Chief Executive Officer

Guess they’re too busy fixing up the L-13’s

[ASM]

PW-6U is in production.
SZD 54-2 Perkoz is in production.
Both of them are pretty good gliders.

[Bob Kuykendall]

I've just started a Facebook page to discuss and promote the idea of an open-source crowd-sourced two-seat primary trainer certified as SLSA or whatever makes it eligible for commercial ride, instruction, and rental use. I envision something about halfway between the ASK13 and ASK21 in performance and complexity, and designed to fill in for the declining 2-33 population.

I'm not extremely optimistic about this effort, but as one of the few sailplane developers with a vested interest in the future of soaring in the US I thought I'd get the conversation going and see where it leads.

https://www.facebook.com/SoarOpenTrainer

--Bob K.

[Paul Agnew]

Meanwhile, the jigs for the Peregrine (Krosnos) are just sitting in shipping containers somewhere in Georgia. Could it be produced cost-effectively?

PA

[Frank Whiteley]

On Friday, June 15, 2018 at 1:26:35 PM UTC-6, Paul Agnew wrote:
> Meanwhile, the jigs for the Peregrine (Krosnos) are just sitting in shipping containers somewhere in Georgia. Could it be produced cost-effectively?
>
> PA

$1M and four year commitment needed. Contact Tim Barry.
http://barryaviation.com/ps/contact.html

[Bob Kuykendall]

On Friday, June 15, 2018 at 12:26:35 PM UTC-7, Paul Agnew wrote:
> Meanwhile, the jigs for the Peregrine (Krosnos) are just sitting in shipping containers somewhere in Georgia. Could it be produced cost-effectively?

As I understand it, the problem with the Krosnos is that the engineering and certification are based on material specifications and thicknesses common in Europe but basically unobtanium here in the US. You'd need to either source all your materials from Europe, or re-engineer the aircraft to use US materials and thicknesses.

As a practical matter, it's not that hard. As a regulatory matter, however, it's a huge paperwork effort to go through every single blueprint and justify the change from some metric thickness to the nearest inch size. You basically have to re-engineer the entire structure.

Sourcing materials from Europe is a huge gamble. Here in the US there is a fairly fat supply pipeline supporting the homebuilt aircraft movement that currently produces the majority of all new general aviation aircraft. In Europe, the pipeline is a lot thinner and has a lot more friction and regulatory risk aversion, so it is likely that material costs would be a lot more.

Furthermore, given that prices for carbon fiber in terms of cost per unit mass and cost per unit stiffness are steadily declining, I think that carbon fiber is the way to go for any new design, even for a primary trainer.

Thanks, Bob K.

[JS[_5_]]

Another hurdle in producing the Puchatek / Krosno / Peregrine:
From memory, the existing 5000-hour limit never got to the point of having an inspection program for extension. This was to be worked on, but then Barry Aviation was awarded a contract that kept them quite busy.
The glider is a decent trainer: Roomy cockpit, good visibility, instruments front and rear, spin capable, aerotow or winch launching.
Jim


On Friday, June 15, 2018 at 1:14:31 PM UTC-7, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
> On Friday, June 15, 2018 at 12:26:35 PM UTC-7, Paul Agnew wrote:
> > Meanwhile, the jigs for the Peregrine (Krosnos) are just sitting in shipping containers somewhere in Georgia. Could it be produced cost-effectively?
>
> As I understand it, the problem with the Krosnos is that the engineering and certification are based on material specifications and thicknesses common in Europe but basically unobtanium here in the US. You'd need to either source all your materials from Europe, or re-engineer the aircraft to use US materials and thicknesses.
>
> As a practical matter, it's not that hard. As a regulatory matter, however, it's a huge paperwork effort to go through every single blueprint and justify the change from some metric thickness to the nearest inch size. You basically have to re-engineer the entire structure.
>
> Sourcing materials from Europe is a huge gamble. Here in the US there is a fairly fat supply pipeline supporting the homebuilt aircraft movement that currently produces the majority of all new general aviation aircraft. In Europe, the pipeline is a lot thinner and has a lot more friction and regulatory risk aversion, so it is likely that material costs would be a lot more.
>
> Furthermore, given that prices for carbon fiber in terms of cost per unit mass and cost per unit stiffness are steadily declining, I think that carbon fiber is the way to go for any new design, even for a primary trainer.
>
> Thanks, Bob K.

[Charlie Quebec]

Never mind, one day the US will progress past the 19th century and use the metric system.

[Frank Whiteley]

On Friday, June 15, 2018 at 2:14:31 PM UTC-6, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
> On Friday, June 15, 2018 at 12:26:35 PM UTC-7, Paul Agnew wrote:
> > Meanwhile, the jigs for the Peregrine (Krosnos) are just sitting in shipping containers somewhere in Georgia. Could it be produced cost-effectively?
>
> As I understand it, the problem with the Krosnos is that the engineering and certification are based on material specifications and thicknesses common in Europe but basically unobtanium here in the US. You'd need to either source all your materials from Europe, or re-engineer the aircraft to use US materials and thicknesses.
>
> As a practical matter, it's not that hard. As a regulatory matter, however, it's a huge paperwork effort to go through every single blueprint and justify the change from some metric thickness to the nearest inch size. You basically have to re-engineer the entire structure.
>
> Sourcing materials from Europe is a huge gamble. Here in the US there is a fairly fat supply pipeline supporting the homebuilt aircraft movement that currently produces the majority of all new general aviation aircraft. In Europe, the pipeline is a lot thinner and has a lot more friction and regulatory risk aversion, so it is likely that material costs would be a lot more.
>
> Furthermore, given that prices for carbon fiber in terms of cost per unit mass and cost per unit stiffness are steadily declining, I think that carbon fiber is the way to go for any new design, even for a primary trainer.
>
> Thanks, Bob K.

Yes, materials were part of the problem, Polish aluminum and Russian steel (not stamped but dated with a Sharpie), though Tim seemed to indicate substitution could be done. When surveyed, the majority of operators preferred metal over composites, but that survey is several years old now. Barry Aviation got as far as PMA and had set up the assembly line, but never achieved manufacturing certification. You have to be able to keep the lights on for a year or two at your manufacturing facility. Three have to be built under FAA observation in order to become self-certifying. If they don't like something, they leave and you will not see them again for months. Didn't seem to be a fix it and we'll come back when you're ready, we'll schedule a return when we're ready. In any event, the economy dumped in 2008 and they couldn't keep the facility open. Tim estimated a trained crew could build one per week.

Frank W

[BobW]

On 6/15/2018 6:20 PM, Charlie Quebec wrote:
> Never mind, one day the US will progress past the 19th century and use the
> metric system.

Ha ha! Or maybe not. We (the US) built an early cruise missile you may be
familiar with; it was called "Snark."

We now build much better cruise missiles, though not metrically. I'm guessing
they have an engine-off L/D of around 10...as in 'somewhat less than' a 2-33.
Hence the engine assist, I guess.

Bob W.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

[Charlie Quebec]

Thats why we call the US Retardistan.

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

If I am not mistaken, Dick Johnson was a designer of cruise missiles.

[Dan Marotta]

Bob,

Would this be a production aircraft or a kit?

On 6/15/2018 12:48 PM, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
> I've just started a Facebook page to discuss and promote the idea of an open-source crowd-sourced two-seat primary trainer certified as SLSA or whatever makes it eligible for commercial ride, instruction, and rental use. I envision something about halfway between the ASK13 and ASK21 in performance and complexity, and designed to fill in for the declining 2-33 population.
>
> I'm not extremely optimistic about this effort, but as one of the few sailplane developers with a vested interest in the future of soaring in the US I thought I'd get the conversation going and see where it leads.
>
> https://www.facebook.com/SoarOpenTrainer
>
> --Bob K.

--
Dan, 5J

[Dan Marotta]

Where are from, Charlie Quebec?Â* One of the countries the US has been
supporting since 1945?Â* Time to grow up and take care of yourselves.

On 6/15/2018 10:57 PM, Charlie Quebec wrote:
> Thats why we call the US Retardistan.

--
Dan, 5J

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Friday, June 15, 2018 at 9:57:18 PM UTC-7, Charlie Quebec wrote:
> Thats why we call the US Retardistan.

So I have learned that the Aussies call Americans sepptos - Yank - skeptic tank = sepptos: And I have learned that some our country calls us "Retardistan". Perhaps it is the company I keep, but I can't think of one derogatory term for another country or their people that in the lexicon Americans'. I guess when one has it all they don't feel the need to disparage another. Just a point on this aviation related site, America exports more aviation goods and technologies than any other country!

[kirk.stant]

On Saturday, June 16, 2018 at 10:11:09 AM UTC-5, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> On Friday, June 15, 2018 at 9:57:18 PM UTC-7, Charlie Quebec wrote:
> > Thats why we call the US Retardistan.

Amazing the amount of jealousy around the world. But that's OK, it keeps them busy while they stare at US movies on their iPhones, while flying around the world in a Boeing airliner, before eating at McDonalds or getting coffee at Starbucks...

Last time I checked, it was a Tesla in orbit around the sun, not a (insert name of fancy car here).

Yep, 'Murica. Sucks to be the best.

Kirk
66

[JS[_5_]]

Anyone have the results of the Manchester United vs Pittsburgh Penguins game?
Jim

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

How about you start a "slam countries" thread, keep this crap out of here?!?!

Maybe you're ****ed Canada is called the US little brother, maybe you don't like new tariffs.....none of this belongs in a thread like this.

While the US supports free speech, don't mess up a sorta technical thread.

HmmmmK?

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Friday, June 15, 2018 at 9:57:18 PM UTC-7, Charlie Quebec wrote:
> Thats why we call the US Retardistan.

From RAS I have learned that the Aussies call Americans sepptos - Yank - skeptic tank = sepptos. And I have learned that some other country (CQ's) call America "Retardistan". Perhaps it is the company I keep, but I can't think of one derogatory term for another country nor their people that is in the lexicon Americans'. I guess when one struggles to keep up they feel the need to disparage another. America exports more aviation goods and technologies than any other country! America has also been the world leading in aviation since we first invented it!!!!! The 1902 Wright glider was the first controllable heavier than air craft to fly. Of course in December of 1903 these American inventers achieved the first powered aircraft flight. Helicopters, supersonic flight, tilt rotors, Moon, stealth (four gen now), stealth Helicopters (when you get to hell ask UBL about those), SR-71, fly-by-wire, first composite commercial airliner 787...…. Ok, I will give you that, we don't build a glider.

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

Per my earlier post, how about someone starting a "slam a country" thread, keep the crap out of here.....
HmmmmmmK?!?!

Sheesh, if this site had staff, and I was part of it (like I am in other sites) I would be deleting posts and maybe throwing negative points.

Cut the crap guys.....l

Try to keep on topic...do a slam thread if it makes your pecker bigger.....
Dang......

[[email protected]]

Jonathan, I thought that was classy, thoroughly eviscerating and well deserved. You forgot instrument flight and carrier Aviation. So America does not build a metal glider anymore, no reason to call it retradistan. We push the leading edge not muddle along on the trailing edge of aviation.

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

Eviscerating?.......https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/eviscerate
Or envigorating?

Maybe you thought it was a gutless reply?

Shrug.......

[son_of_flubber]

On Friday, June 15, 2018 at 2:48:48 PM UTC-4, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
> I've just started a Facebook page to discuss and promote the idea of an open-source crowd-sourced two-seat primary trainer certified as SLSA or whatever makes it eligible for commercial ride, instruction, and rental use. I envision something about halfway between the ASK13 and ASK21 in performance and complexity, and designed to fill in for the declining 2-33 population.
>
> I'm not extremely optimistic about this effort, but as one of the few sailplane developers with a vested interest in the future of soaring in the US I thought I'd get the conversation going and see where it leads.
>
> https://www.facebook.com/SoarOpenTrainer
>

I've not completely given up on R.A.S. just yet, so I'll ask my question here. Why would this project produce two place trainers that were less expensive than the PW-6 built in Poland? BTW, the PW-6 performance is very close to the ASK21, I assume it would have better performance than the SoarOpenTrainer.

[Charlie Quebec]

Yeh, a civilised country, that sadly has supported every one of your wars since ww2 in battle.
Face reality, your protection is simply protecting your markets, Iraq, based on proven lies for example.
Retardistan is the first empire to go from rise to fall without an intervening period of civilisation.
Still, the rate at which you are ****ing off all your allies under cheetoh Hitler is impressive.

[Charlie Quebec]

No, it’s Seppos, no surprise you can’t spell though. The reason you don’t have such terms is obvious, think about it.
You go around bombing other countries, 16 since ww2, where it is none of your business.
You create and sponsor terrorism, ISIS is a direct result of the most stupid war ever.

[[email protected]]

> I've not completely given up on R.A.S. just yet, so I'll ask my question here. Why would this project produce two place trainers that were less expensive than the PW-6 built in Poland? BTW, the PW-6 performance is very close to the ASK21, I assume it would have better performance than the SoarOpenTrainer.

My personal take would be to make a metal or metal and fabric ASK-13ish kit.. Sonex type airframe kits are around 25K Say you could get a two seater high twenties to one, for 30K and easyish to build. Make sure it can take two big pilots. Dunno if it would sell. Composite makes better sailplanes, but I have no interest in working with the stuff, no idea how universal that feeling is.
On the other point. What great days when American newspaper editorials openly advocated for America to invade and take over Canada. Was but a mere 100 years ago. Think of how great that would be for Canada. They'd be Americans so they wouldn't have to feel like a second world country and the world would be rid of that dress wearing son of a commie prime minister.

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Sunday, June 17, 2018 at 12:11:37 AM UTC-7, Charlie Quebec wrote:
> No, it’s Seppos, no surprise you can’t spell though. The reason you don’t have such terms is obvious, think about it.
> You go around bombing other countries, 16 since ww2, where it is none of your business.
> You create and sponsor terrorism, ISIS is a direct result of the most stupid war ever.

CQ, may we please stop the personal attacks and the attacks against other countries. I have not insulted you nor your country. I merely pointed out that while America does not build gliders, this country has always been at the forefront of aviation, the topic at hand, not geopolitical events, miscalculations and out right disasters. No reason to call a nation with seven of the top ten Universities the world "re....stan".

Charlie Quebec we want you to stay in the news group and your opinions to be read and valued by others. Issuing gratuitous insults is not productive to that ends. As for me not knowing how to spell "seppos" is not a reflection on anything other than I don't care to delve into the world of slang, or slang foreigners use to disparage America and/or Americans.

[BobW]

<Off-topic, bitter, doubling-down, bile snipped...>

While we're waiting for a new low-budget two-seater, is there a 2-33 available
for rent at Bitterwasser? I'd *love* to see how far she could go, there!

Bob W.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

[Mark Wright[_2_]]

Agreed the ASK 13 is an excellent training aircraft which is widely
used in the UK. Sadly major glue failures are occurring in some of
these Schleicher aircraft rendering them beyond economic repair.
Some ASK13’s in the UK have had to be binned (one of my clubs
two met this fate) so if you’re going for a wooden Schleicher
“buyer beware� .

Regards

Mark



t 13:03 14 June 2018, Senna Van den Bosch wrote:
>Op donderdag 14 juni 2018 12:26:00 UTC+2 schreef Martin
Gregorie:
>> On Thu, 14 Jun 2018 00:24:41 -0700, Tom wrote:
>>
>> >> This is of interest to me too. Here in the USA there don't
seem to be
>> >> many "affordable" options. If you are looking at a glider
under
>> >> $30,000
>> >
>> > Although little bit off-topic, but yesterday I was looking to
buy this
>> > old bird>
>> > http://www.segelflug.de/osclass/index.php?
page=item&id=26202 Yes, I
>know
>> > it is older than me, but it fly :-)
>> >
>> >> then about the only option is the ever-aging fleet of
Schweizer 2-33
>> >> gliders,
>> >
>> > Thanks, John. Will check this too.
>>
>> If there are any K-13s in the USA, they'd be worth a look -
there are
>> still quite a lot being used by UK clubs including Lasham. They
are
>> better than the K-7 for one main reason: the instructor's view
is quite
>> restricted in a K-7. Look at that linked photo and/or listen to
those
>> who've instructed in them. This is not an issue in the K-13.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Martin | martin at
>> Gregorie | gregorie dot org
>
>I agree with K13's, very easy, good view,... Our club has 2 K13's
for early
>training and 2 G103 Twins (2 and 3) for advanced training.
>

[John Foster]

On Friday, June 15, 2018 at 12:48:48 PM UTC-6, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
> I've just started a Facebook page to discuss and promote the idea of an open-source crowd-sourced two-seat primary trainer certified as SLSA or whatever makes it eligible for commercial ride, instruction, and rental use. I envision something about halfway between the ASK13 and ASK21 in performance and complexity, and designed to fill in for the declining 2-33 population.
>
> I'm not extremely optimistic about this effort, but as one of the few sailplane developers with a vested interest in the future of soaring in the US I thought I'd get the conversation going and see where it leads.
>
> https://www.facebook.com/SoarOpenTrainer
>
> --Bob K.

Bob, would you mind elaborating more about what exactly a "SLSA" is and how it is set up? I'm interested to learn more about this possibility.

[Dan Daly[_2_]]

On Monday, June 18, 2018 at 5:50:23 AM UTC-4, John Foster wrote:
> On Friday, June 15, 2018 at 12:48:48 PM UTC-6, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
> > I've just started a Facebook page to discuss and promote the idea of an open-source crowd-sourced two-seat primary trainer certified as SLSA or whatever makes it eligible for commercial ride, instruction, and rental use. I envision something about halfway between the ASK13 and ASK21 in performance and complexity, and designed to fill in for the declining 2-33 population.

[Mike the Strike]

On Sunday, June 17, 2018 at 5:17:39 PM UTC+1, BobW wrote:
> <Off-topic, bitter, doubling-down, bile snipped...>
>
> While we're waiting for a new low-budget two-seater, is there a 2-33 available
> for rent at Bitterwasser? I'd *love* to see how far she could go, there!
>
> Bob W.
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> https://www.avg.com

I suspect Gollywompers are treated as in invasive species in most countries. I've never seen one outside of the USA or Canada!

Mike

[Bob Kuykendall]

On Saturday, June 16, 2018 at 6:11:08 PM UTC-7, son_of_flubber wrote:
> Why would this project produce two place trainers that were less expensive than the PW-6 built in Poland?

Before or after the Trade Wars?

[John Foster]

On Saturday, June 16, 2018 at 7:11:08 PM UTC-6, son_of_flubber wrote:
> On Friday, June 15, 2018 at 2:48:48 PM UTC-4, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
> > I've just started a Facebook page to discuss and promote the idea of an open-source crowd-sourced two-seat primary trainer certified as SLSA or whatever makes it eligible for commercial ride, instruction, and rental use. I envision something about halfway between the ASK13 and ASK21 in performance and complexity, and designed to fill in for the declining 2-33 population.

[andrzop]

PW-6 is a glider rather for Chinese, not for Americans ;-)

[Bob Whelan[_3_]]

On 6/19/2018 3:46 AM, Mike the Strike wrote:
> On Sunday, June 17, 2018 at 5:17:39 PM UTC+1, BobW wrote:

>> While we're waiting for a new low-budget two-seater, is there a 2-33 available
>> for rent at Bitterwasser? I'd *love* to see how far she could go, there!
>>
>
> I suspect Gollywompers are treated as in invasive species in most countries. I've never seen one outside of the USA or Canada!
>
> Mike
>

Hey!!! Dragmaster<=>"invasive species" + app: additional low budget two seater
problem solved? :)

Bob - no need to thank me! - W.


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[ASM]

On Tuesday, June 19, 2018 at 11:25:05 PM UTC-7, John Foster wrote:
> On Saturday, June 16, 2018 at 7:11:08 PM UTC-6, son_of_flubber wrote:
> > On Friday, June 15, 2018 at 2:48:48 PM UTC-4, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
> > > I've just started a Facebook page to discuss and promote the idea of an open-source crowd-sourced two-seat primary trainer certified as SLSA or whatever makes it eligible for commercial ride, instruction, and rental use.. I envision something about halfway between the ASK13 and ASK21 in performance and complexity, and designed to fill in for the declining 2-33 population.
> > >
> > > I'm not extremely optimistic about this effort, but as one of the few sailplane developers with a vested interest in the future of soaring in the US I thought I'd get the conversation going and see where it leads.
> > >
> > > https://www.facebook.com/SoarOpenTrainer
> > >
> >
> > I've not completely given up on R.A.S. just yet, so I'll ask my question here. Why would this project produce two place trainers that were less expensive than the PW-6 built in Poland? BTW, the PW-6 performance is very close to the ASK21, I assume it would have better performance than the SoarOpenTrainer.
>
> How much does a new ready-to-fly PW-6 cost now including import duties and tariffs?

They sell for less than 70000, but you have to add cost of trailer (about 10000 for Avionic), freight over the Atlantic, and of course taxes.

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, June 13, 2018 at 4:24:46 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> I think a new "low budget two seater" is not really existing. At the "low end" of the production two-seat gliders, you have:
>
> PW-6U (http://www.szdjezow.com.pl/) - not sure it is still in production, relatively low performance, good for spin training.
>
> Perkoz (http://szd.com.pl/fr/products/szd-54-2-perkoz) - in production, good performance, good for spin training, adaptable for uncertifed hand controls.
>
> ASK-21 (https://www.alexander-schleicher.de/en/flugzeuge/ask-21/) - in production, relatively low performance, spin training only with special mod, adaptable for certified hand controls.
>
> DG-1001 Club (https://www.dg-flugzeugbau.de/en/aircrafts/dg-1001/dg-1001club) - in production, good performance, good for spin training.

At ~$80kEURO (plus trailer, shipping and instruments) the Perkoz is the closest thing there is to a "low budget two-seater" these days. The next best option IMHO is the DG-1001 Club Nuo with a fixed gear and similarly the K-21. While non of these are cheap, a handful of clubs have looked at their aging fleet and ponied up to buy one or two new ships while the dollar is relatively strong. Plan for the future. Consider who your new customers will be and what they're looking for in a fleet. So far, anecdotally at least, clubs who recently purchased K-21's have no regrets and are seeing high utilization rates. The next major challenge to growth and retention is the lack of instructors, especially instructors qualified to instruct advanced concepts such as dual XC.

- Chris Schrader

[Richard McLean[_2_]]

Not true Jonathan, you yanks (or septics, seppos .. neither of which is meant by us aussies as derogatory ..) have created plenty of derogatory terms for non-Americans over the years (I won't name them all but I can think of about half a dozen straight away) so America can't claim moral superiority with that.

And those terms are just as inappropriate in a friendly discussion about gliders as the one quoted!

America has created some wonderful technology (you can keep your McDonalds & Starbucks!) but sometimes (to an outsider) it does seem that Americans (generalising here ..) tend to be a little boastful & blind to the achievements/sometimes better systems of the rest of the world ... the metric system being one of them!

P.S. the Wright bothers thing is very debatable! The Wright brothers had good lawyers & publicity.

[Paul Agnew]

Definitely not low-budget, but it looks like the venerable ASK-21 has gotten an upgrade to the ASK-21B.

https://www.alexander-schleicher.de/neu-b-version-der-ask-21/

[[email protected]]

On Friday, July 13, 2018 at 10:47:08 AM UTC-4, Paul Agnew wrote:
> Definitely not low-budget, but it looks like the venerable ASK-21 has gotten an upgrade to the ASK-21B.
>
> https://www.alexander-schleicher.de/neu-b-version-der-ask-21/

Kudos to Alexander Schleicher. They made the ASK 21 even better with the "B" Model. Got rid of the L'Hotelier fittings. Now Aileron and Airbrake connections are automatic during assembly. The front instrument panel now tilts up for easier entry of Ride customers. Spin Kit is looks easier to use. Would love to have one of these in our fleet.

Chuck Zabinski
Finger Lakes Soariing Club

[John Foster]

On Wednesday, June 13, 2018 at 1:35:01 AM UTC-6, Gal wrote:
> Hi!
> We are trying to get new two seater from various funds for our club. Most of the funds force to buy new glider.
> Can you please help us a little bit with market research and suggest low budget two seater?
> Thank you all!

Pardon my cynical attitude, but I don't expect this to cost any less than the older version, and in fact would be surprised if it didn't cost more. These kind of gliders need to be more affordable. /[Rant]

[Paul T[_4_]]

At 06:07 14 July 2018, John Foster wrote:
>On Wednesday, June 13, 2018 at 1:35:01 AM UTC-6, Gal wrote:
>> Hi!
>> We are trying to get new two seater from various funds for our club.
Most
>of the funds force to buy new glider.
>> Can you please help us a little bit with market research and suggest
low
>budget two seater?
>> Thank you all!
>
>Pardon my cynical attitude, but I don't expect this to cost any less than
>the older version, and in fact would be surprised if it didn't cost more.

>These kind of gliders need to be more affordable. /[Rant]
>

Then you find a way of producing them more affordably instead of siting on

your arse ranting. Don't think most sailplane manufacturers are making
vast profits.

[[email protected]]

American clubs need to bite the bullet and start renewing our fleet or we will continue to shrink. 100k for a glider shared across the membership and amortized isn't that much. An ASK21 is a steal compared to a c172.

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

Your question is sorta like automotive performance parts......"cheap, fast, reliable....pick two".

A lot depends on your version of "low budget". Some peeps think $150K US is low budget, others cringe seeing a $20K US used price.

I have no clue, a number of thoughts presented thus far.

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

Oh, and where is your club?
In North America most new gliders are imported, thus currency exchange, duties, shipping, etc.
Eastern Europe can be cheaper for the same ship.

[John Foster]

On Saturday, July 14, 2018 at 2:43:06 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> American clubs need to bite the bullet and start renewing our fleet or we will continue to shrink. 100k for a glider shared across the membership and amortized isn't that much. An ASK21 is a steal compared to a c172.

Its a little hard doing that when your "club" consists of 4 working stiffs, all of which don't even have the money to go out on their own and get a glider pilot's license. We're trying to get something started here in MT. And I can find a used airworthy c172 for easily as much or less than I can find a used ASK21 (which I have yet to see a used one go for anything less than $75,000).

[[email protected]]

You've certainly got a challenge with 4 members and a low population density to draw from up there. I was referring to new c172 vs. new k21 price however. Every club has its challenges, keep pushing! You'll find the right glider to get you going, but when you do, don't let your progress stop there. Too many clubs stopped advancing decades ago and now SSA membership is half of what it was when I was a kid.

[WB]

On Sunday, July 15, 2018 at 12:48:07 AM UTC-5, John Foster wrote:
> On Saturday, July 14, 2018 at 2:43:06 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> > American clubs need to bite the bullet and start renewing our fleet or we will continue to shrink. 100k for a glider shared across the membership and amortized isn't that much. An ASK21 is a steal compared to a c172.
>
> Its a little hard doing that when your "club" consists of 4 working stiffs, all of which don't even have the money to go out on their own and get a glider pilot's license. We're trying to get something started here in MT. And I can find a used airworthy c172 for easily as much or less than I can find a used ASK21 (which I have yet to see a used one go for anything less than $75,000).

When my club, SES, started, we were launching with a car, a rope, and a pulley. I think there were around 10 members at the time. We found a Ka-8 and a Ka-7 that needed some love. Financed them at a local bank and paid interest only on the loans for a few years. I think we were paying something like $60/month for the Ka-7. Now we average around 40-50 members, 2 Ka-8's in pristine condition, a pretty good looking Ka-7, and a high(er) performance 2 seater (Scheibe SF-34), a Standard Cirrus, and a Pawnee tug. All paid for now, by the way. Regardless of what gliders you have, if they fly regularly, your club will most likely make it.