Accelerated spin in unexpected direction at low altitude

[[email protected]]

There are three messages here
Your glider may not always enter spin in the same direction you turn or circle. At high bank 50-60 degree in tight turn with high G load your upper wing may stall first. In a split second you can get in accelerated spin in unexpected direction. Scenario could be a new quick decision at altitude below 200 feet during land-out.
I witnessed Jantar Std3 doing 180 from downwind to short final in 60 degree of bank at an altitude about 150 feet. In the middle of RIGHT 180 turn the glider flipped LEFT and made ONE full turn of accelerated spin in about 2-3 seconds before hitting ground. UPPER (left) wing stalled first. It was so fast that there was no chance for pilot to react. The 21 years old pilot survived with broken legs. His life was saved because left wing hit the ground and broke partially mid section taking some energy off of the nose of the cockpit.
The next day I took Jantar Std3 to try to duplicate case of glider spin in opposite direction to the turn (at altitude 3000-4000 feet). I was determined to find out what happened, I tried 60-degree bank with high G and different aileron positions. Finally it happened on the 16th try.
There is another important message here with a twist. Above accident would not happen at all if the pilot would stick to his original plan after he completed his speed triangle. His plan was to make only one 90 degree Left turn at an altitude 400 feet over flightline and land toward hangars. When he initiated that Left 90-degree turn, the flight instructor noticed that and sent him on close downwind pattern to land on flightline from that low altitude, he said on the radio "right love! right!". I will never forget that radio call. The 21 years old pilot should have followed his original plan. So now from that low altitude of 400 feet he had to do Right turn 90 degree, go downwind 200 yards then tight Right 180 to short final for landing. And this was the instructor who thought the pilot from scratch when he was 17.. Sometime the same instructor who teaches you can kill you. The young pilot was worried that he could be grounded for not following landing instructions. Stick to your original plan, you are the final authority when you fly. You are not radio-controlled model. You can argue later. If you spin below 150 feet you have better chance of survival if you keep spinning versus stopping rotation, but take your feet off the pedals and bend your knees. And please teach full spin and recovery in US, please. Fly lower on tow, always keep more speed, you will live longer. Be safe. Andre

[[email protected]]

Thanks for many interesting comments.

[Retting]

Uh, well, OK.....I found your safety thread to be highly technical and very advance....for me.
I’m afraid at my advance age I have shifted to don’t dick it up mode realizing my sharpest days have passed even with 37K+ hours.
Your last two sentences was all you needed to get a discussion going feeding in the other data as needed.
Plus, you post in the peak of a few crashes that had most saturated with uncontrollable flight.
Start off with a glider joke like “what did the pilot say to his wife when she showed up naked to retrieve him?”

R

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Sunday, June 24, 2018 at 8:03:16 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> There are three messages here
> Your glider may not always enter spin in the same direction you turn or circle. At high bank 50-60 degree in tight turn with high G load your upper wing may stall first. In a split second you can get in accelerated spin in unexpected direction. Scenario could be a new quick decision at altitude below 200 feet during land-out.
> I witnessed Jantar Std3 doing 180 from downwind to short final in 60 degree of bank at an altitude about 150 feet. In the middle of RIGHT 180 turn the glider flipped LEFT and made ONE full turn of accelerated spin in about 2-3 seconds before hitting ground. UPPER (left) wing stalled first. It was so fast that there was no chance for pilot to react. The 21 years old pilot survived with broken legs. His life was saved because left wing hit the ground and broke partially mid section taking some energy off of the nose of the cockpit.
> The next day I took Jantar Std3 to try to duplicate case of glider spin in opposite direction to the turn (at altitude 3000-4000 feet). I was determined to find out what happened, I tried 60-degree bank with high G and different aileron positions. Finally it happened on the 16th try.
> There is another important message here with a twist. Above accident would not happen at all if the pilot would stick to his original plan after he completed his speed triangle. His plan was to make only one 90 degree Left turn at an altitude 400 feet over flightline and land toward hangars. When he initiated that Left 90-degree turn, the flight instructor noticed that and sent him on close downwind pattern to land on flightline from that low altitude, he said on the radio "right love! right!". I will never forget that radio call. The 21 years old pilot should have followed his original plan.. So now from that low altitude of 400 feet he had to do Right turn 90 degree, go downwind 200 yards then tight Right 180 to short final for landing. And this was the instructor who thought the pilot from scratch when he was 17. Sometime the same instructor who teaches you can kill you. The young pilot was worried that he could be grounded for not following landing instructions. Stick to your original plan, you are the final authority when you fly. You are not radio-controlled model. You can argue later. If you spin below 150 feet you have better chance of survival if you keep spinning versus stopping rotation, but take your feet off the pedals and bend your knees. And please teach full spin and recovery in US, please. Fly lower on tow, always keep more speed, you will live longer. Be safe. Andre

Thank you for this. The only time I have been in an over the top spin was in one particular 2-32 only from a slip to the left. Allow this particular 2-32 to get slow in a left slip and over the top you went. Would not do it from a slip to the right and I had always been thought that an aircraft will not stall from a slip. Unfortunately this glider is not with use any more and I have not been able to get any other 2-32 to do an over the top spin entry from a slip.

[Soarin Again[_2_]]

>Thank you for this. The only time I have been in an over the top spin
was
>in one particular 2-32 only from a slip to the left. Allow this
particular
>2-32 to get slow in a left slip and over the top you went. Would not do
it
>from a slip to the right and I had always been thought that an aircraft
>will not stall from a slip. Unfortunately this glider is not with use
any
>more and I have not been able to get any other 2-32 to do an over the top
>spin entry from a slip.

In the mid 90's while high in Minden wave and test flying a Puchacz
for
a potential club purchase. An investigation of the gliders slip and
slipping
turn characteristics. During a deep left slipping turn the glider
abruptly
broke over the raised right wing into an aggressive right spin. Onlookers
said it appeared very much like a left slipping turn into a right snap
roll
spin entry. Considering that I was at about 1g at the time so there was no
g-loading associated with this event. My assumption was that the raised
wing was blanked and stalled by the associated fuselage/wing turbulence.
I did not attempt to repeat the incident in that or any other Puchacz, so
I
have no idea if that characteristic was typical for make and model or
limited
to that particular glider. It's still remains the most aggressive spin
entry I
have ever experienced in a glider or airplane.
I should add that the club did go ahead and ordered a new Puchacz.
Unfortunately a number of years later during a check flight with the clubs
primary instructor/club president and a new club member/airline pilot,
were
both killed when their Puchacz spun to impact.

[[email protected]]

Hmmm. I had not heard that a glider would not stall while in a slip, only that if it did, it would spin in the opposite direction, presumably giving you slightly more time to recover. I regularly slip my ASW 24 on final and have always been careful to keep the speed up, even though I suspect the ASI is not as reliable as the slip angle increases.

I recall that at least one ASW 12 pilot from the old days had two ASIs installed, one for normal flying and the other with a pitot tube bent out at an angle that he used to monitor airspeed when in the dramatic slip that experienced '12 drivers used to get that ship down in a hurry sans tail chute.

Chip Bearden

[BobW]

On 7/2/2018 11:28 AM, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> <Snip...> The only time I have been in an over the top spin was
> in one particular 2-32 only from a slip to the left. Allow this particular
> 2-32 to get slow in a left slip and over the top you went. Would not do it
> from a slip to the right and I had always been thought that an aircraft
> will not stall from a slip. Unfortunately this glider is not with use any
> more and I have not been able to get any other 2-32 to do an over the top
> spin entry from a slip.

If this was not N232PC, for a long time (until the early '90s?), my club had
a(nother?) 2-32 that would do the same thing...a quite eye-pleasing orange and
yellow as I recall. Memory says it was eventually sold to the (last)
Calistoga operation.

It also routinely/'abruptly' dropped the left wing whenever stalled.
Amazingly(?) - so far as I was ever aware - it was never damaged as a result
of either trait during the club's ownership. Yes, every club pilot checked out
in it was thoroughly briefed/exposed-to both 'quirks' prior to solo signoff...

Bob W.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

[Soarin Again[_2_]]

>Thank you for this. The only time I have been in an over the top spin
was
>in one particular 2-32 only from a slip to the left. Allow this
particular
>2-32 to get slow in a left slip and over the top you went. Would not do
it
>from a slip to the right and I had always been thought that an aircraft
>will not stall from a slip. Unfortunately this glider is not with use
any
>more and I have not been able to get any other 2-32 to do an over the top
>spin entry from a slip.

In the mid 90's while high in Minden wave and test flying a Puchacz
for
a potential club purchase. An investigation of the gliders slip and
slipping
turn characteristics. During a deep left slipping turn the glider
abruptly
broke over the raised right wing into an aggressive right spin. Onlookers
said it appeared very much like a left slipping turn into a right snap
roll
spin entry. Considering that I was at about 1g at the time so there was no
g-loading associated with this event. My assumption was that the raised
wing was blanked and stalled by the associated fuselage/wing turbulence.
I did not attempt to repeat the incident in that or any other Puchacz, so
I
have no idea if that characteristic was typical for make and model or
limited
to that particular glider. It's still remains the most aggressive spin
entry I
have ever experienced in a glider or airplane.
I should add that the club did go ahead and ordered a new Puchacz.
Unfortunately a number of years later during a check flight with the clubs
primary instructor/club president and a new club member/airline pilot,
were
both killed when their Puchacz spun to impact.

[[email protected]]

Bob, N232PC is my N number for a ASW27 :)

Cliff Hilty (CH) ASW 27 formerly Paul Cordell's hence the PC :)

[George Haeh]

I'm not in favor of making a fetish of full spin and recovery. I worry that emphasis on holding the stick all the way back through a full turn builds the worst possible muscle memory.

Yes,it's worthwhile demonstrating at altitude, but the ground will most likely get in the way of a recovery from a spin out of a turn to base or final. That's where we lose friends. Shears and other nastinesses lurk at low level.

I put a higher priority on recognition of and immediate recovery from an incipient spin.

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Mon, 02 Jul 2018 21:08:21 -0700, George Haeh wrote:

> I'm not in favor of making a fetish of full spin and recovery. I worry
> that emphasis on holding the stick all the way back through a full turn
> builds the worst possible muscle memory.
>
> Yes,it's worthwhile demonstrating at altitude, but the ground will most
> likely get in the way of a recovery from a spin out of a turn to base or
> final. That's where we lose friends. Shears and other nastinesses lurk
> at low level.
>
> I put a higher priority on recognition of and immediate recovery from an
> incipient spin.

With respect, accelerated spin entry is a bit different because one
moment you aren't spinning and then suddenly you are. I've had one or two
'interesting' departures:

- While I had an early ASW-20 it departed twice without warning from a
thermalling turn - at least I didn't notice any buffet, etc and wasn't
all that slow (45 kts, 40 degree bank), but both times I'd recovered
within 1/4 of a turn, admittedly 35kts faster and 300 ft lower. These
were both into-turn spins.

- Puchacz 1. In one of the spin practice flights our club insists on at
the start of the season and with plenty of height, I tried a recovery
method that was supposed to minimise height loss. That didn't work: all
that happened was that the Puch did a snap reversal of spin
direction. Not a problem: I saw the reversal happen (remarkably
fast), swapped the applied rudder and came out of the spin without any
problems.

- Puchacz 2. Another annual spin practice. This time the instructor
promised me a treat if we were still high after completing the stall
and spin exercise. We were, so he had me set up a thermal-like turn
(this was a cold, overcast day), at 45kts and a 40 degree bank. Then,
he had me snap the stick back centrally and hold it. The Puch pitched
up, did half a wing-over and spun off the top - IIRC it was an
over-the-top entry, but regardless it was immediately spinning - no
hesitation! Again no problem: I recovered within half a turn at most.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, June 24, 2018 at 11:03:16 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> There are three messages here
> Your glider may not always enter spin in the same direction you turn or circle. At high bank 50-60 degree in tight turn with high G load your upper wing may stall first. In a split second you can get in accelerated spin in unexpected direction. Scenario could be a new quick decision at altitude below 200 feet during land-out.
> I witnessed Jantar Std3 doing 180 from downwind to short final in 60 degree of bank at an altitude about 150 feet. In the middle of RIGHT 180 turn the glider flipped LEFT and made ONE full turn of accelerated spin in about 2-3 seconds before hitting ground. UPPER (left) wing stalled first. It was so fast that there was no chance for pilot to react. The 21 years old pilot survived with broken legs. His life was saved because left wing hit the ground and broke partially mid section taking some energy off of the nose of the cockpit.
> The next day I took Jantar Std3 to try to duplicate case of glider spin in opposite direction to the turn (at altitude 3000-4000 feet). I was determined to find out what happened, I tried 60-degree bank with high G and different aileron positions. Finally it happened on the 16th try.
> There is another important message here with a twist. Above accident would not happen at all if the pilot would stick to his original plan after he completed his speed triangle. His plan was to make only one 90 degree Left turn at an altitude 400 feet over flightline and land toward hangars. When he initiated that Left 90-degree turn, the flight instructor noticed that and sent him on close downwind pattern to land on flightline from that low altitude, he said on the radio "right love! right!". I will never forget that radio call. The 21 years old pilot should have followed his original plan.. So now from that low altitude of 400 feet he had to do Right turn 90 degree, go downwind 200 yards then tight Right 180 to short final for landing. And this was the instructor who thought the pilot from scratch when he was 17. Sometime the same instructor who teaches you can kill you. The young pilot was worried that he could be grounded for not following landing instructions. Stick to your original plan, you are the final authority when you fly. You are not radio-controlled model. You can argue later. If you spin below 150 feet you have better chance of survival if you keep spinning versus stopping rotation, but take your feet off the pedals and bend your knees. And please teach full spin and recovery in US, please. Fly lower on tow, always keep more speed, you will live longer. Be safe. Andre

Could someone tell me what an "accelerated spin " is.
Thanks
UH

[CindyB[_2_]]

On Monday, July 2, 2018 at 2:26:21 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> Bob, N232PC is my N number for a ASW27 :)
>
> Cliff Hilty (CH) ASW 27 formerly Paul Cordell's hence the PC :)

N numbers can change over the lifetime of an airframe, at least in the US.
New owner? They can apply for a new random or personally chosen (registration) N-number. The only number that remains with the machine throughout its life is the factory serial number. And sometimes, if there is a damage incident -- major components from one wreck might make it onto the other parts of another airframe. Hence a fuselage wtih one serial number and a wing or elevator with a differing serial number. Changes of that significance would hopefully be reflected in the maintenance logs.

Seen this in person,
Cindy B

[Bruce Hoult]

On Tuesday, July 3, 2018 at 5:29:55 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Sunday, June 24, 2018 at 11:03:16 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > There are three messages here
> > Your glider may not always enter spin in the same direction you turn or circle. At high bank 50-60 degree in tight turn with high G load your upper wing may stall first. In a split second you can get in accelerated spin in unexpected direction. Scenario could be a new quick decision at altitude below 200 feet during land-out.
> > I witnessed Jantar Std3 doing 180 from downwind to short final in 60 degree of bank at an altitude about 150 feet. In the middle of RIGHT 180 turn the glider flipped LEFT and made ONE full turn of accelerated spin in about 2-3 seconds before hitting ground. UPPER (left) wing stalled first. It was so fast that there was no chance for pilot to react. The 21 years old pilot survived with broken legs. His life was saved because left wing hit the ground and broke partially mid section taking some energy off of the nose of the cockpit.
> > The next day I took Jantar Std3 to try to duplicate case of glider spin in opposite direction to the turn (at altitude 3000-4000 feet). I was determined to find out what happened, I tried 60-degree bank with high G and different aileron positions. Finally it happened on the 16th try.
> > There is another important message here with a twist. Above accident would not happen at all if the pilot would stick to his original plan after he completed his speed triangle. His plan was to make only one 90 degree Left turn at an altitude 400 feet over flightline and land toward hangars. When he initiated that Left 90-degree turn, the flight instructor noticed that and sent him on close downwind pattern to land on flightline from that low altitude, he said on the radio "right love! right!". I will never forget that radio call. The 21 years old pilot should have followed his original plan. So now from that low altitude of 400 feet he had to do Right turn 90 degree, go downwind 200 yards then tight Right 180 to short final for landing.. And this was the instructor who thought the pilot from scratch when he was 17. Sometime the same instructor who teaches you can kill you. The young pilot was worried that he could be grounded for not following landing instructions. Stick to your original plan, you are the final authority when you fly. You are not radio-controlled model. You can argue later. If you spin below 150 feet you have better chance of survival if you keep spinning versus stopping rotation, but take your feet off the pedals and bend your knees. And please teach full spin and recovery in US, please. Fly lower on tow, always keep more speed, you will live longer. Be safe. Andre
>
> Could someone tell me what an "accelerated spin " is.

I'd assume one resulting from an accelerated stall i.e. a stall at higher speed than the normal straight and level stall speed, due to G loading.

[CindyB[_2_]]

On Tuesday, July 3, 2018 at 5:29:55 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Sunday, June 24, 2018 at 11:03:16 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > There are three messages here
> > Your glider may not always enter spin in the same direction you turn or circle. At high bank 50-60 degree in tight turn with high G load your upper wing may stall first. In a split second you can get in accelerated spin in unexpected direction. Scenario could be a new quick decision at altitude below 200 feet during land-out.
> > I witnessed Jantar Std3 doing 180 from downwind to short final in 60 degree of bank at an altitude about 150 feet. In the middle of RIGHT 180 turn the glider flipped LEFT and made ONE full turn of accelerated spin in about 2-3 seconds before hitting ground. UPPER (left) wing stalled first. It was so fast that there was no chance for pilot to react.
>
> Could someone tell me what an "accelerated spin " is.
> Thanks
> UH

"Accelerated spin" ? No such thing unless you wanted to quantify rotation rate.
I think what Marty and Andre meant to say was abrupt, unexpected departure.....
or departure from accelerated stall --
but that makes for less storydrama by having a more concise description.

Don't spin a Puch without chutes and a hard deck(>1000m agl). Ever.

Best wishes,

Cindy B

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Tue, 03 Jul 2018 23:36:11 -0700, CindyB wrote:

> Don't spin a Puch without chutes and a hard deck(>1000m agl). Ever.
>
Out of sheer curiosity, why do you say that?

I've been flying gliders for 18 years and have spun the club's Puchacz at
least once in each of those years. Its always done what I expected it to
do apart from the occasional wing drop in an intentional stall and has
never spun when I wasn't expecting it to. Its the one of our club's two
seaters that I most enjoy flying solo.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[6PK]

It's that one time that will get you....

[[email protected]]

My bad, mine is 272PC. New to me last August. I have reserved 272CH but not sure its worth the effort to change it :)

Cliff Hilty (CH) ASW27

[Charlie Quebec]

Because of the large number that have spun to the ground and killed the occupants perhaps?
The Puch is overepresented in these kinds of accidents.

[Bruce Hoult]

On Wednesday, July 4, 2018 at 9:38:27 PM UTC-7, Charlie Quebec wrote:
> Because of the large number that have spun to the ground and killed the occupants perhaps?
> The Puch is overepresented in these kinds of accidents.

And generally with an instructor on board. And not spinning accidentally in the circuit, but spins deliberately initiated at altitude.

They recover just fine 99.99% of the time. But it seems that every so often .. no.

[Chris Rowland[_2_]]

At 05:33 05 July 2018, Bruce Hoult wrote:
>On Wednesday, July 4, 2018 at 9:38:27 PM UTC-7, Charlie Quebec wrote:
>> Because of the large number that have spun to the ground and killed the
>occupants perhaps?
>> The Puch is overepresented in these kinds of accidents.
>
>And generally with an instructor on board. And not spinning accidentally
in
>the circuit, but spins deliberately initiated at altitude.
>
>They recover just fine 99.99% of the time. But it seems that every so
often
>.. no.
>
All the Puchacz spin ins I know of had a most likely reason that no
recovery action was initiated.

One because a couple of instructors kept it spinning until too low to
recover. There was a voice recording and no indication of a problem
recovering, or any attempt to do so.
One because it had a low cable break and the instructor did a low circuit,
got too slow round the final turn.
One because the pupil froze on the controls so the instructor couldn't get
the stick forwards. I saw that one.
And one where the instructor seems to have had a heart attack and the pupil
didn't cope.

The Puchacz recovery process is normal and what matters is to move the
stick forwards to pitch the nose down to reduce the angle of attack and so
unstall the wing. It takes more movement than a Ka13 but not more than a
lot of single seaters.

Chris

[Mark Wright[_2_]]

At 06:44 05 July 2018, Chris Rowland wrote:
>At 05:33 05 July 2018, Bruce Hoult wrote:
>>On Wednesday, July 4, 2018 at 9:38:27 PM UTC-7, Charlie
Quebec wrote:
>>> Because of the large number that have spun to the ground
and killed the
>>occupants perhaps?
>>> The Puch is overepresented in these kinds of accidents.
>>
>>And generally with an instructor on board. And not spinning
accidentall
>in
>>the circuit, but spins deliberately initiated at altitude.
>>
>>They recover just fine 99.99% of the time. But it seems that
every s
>often
>>.. no.
>>
>All the Puchacz spin ins I know of had a most likely reason that n
>recovery action was initiated.
>
>One because a couple of instructors kept it spinning until too low
t
>recover. There was a voice recording and no indication of a
proble
>recovering, or any attempt to do so.
>One because it had a low cable break and the instructor did a
low circuit
>got too slow round the final turn.
>One because the pupil froze on the controls so the instructor
couldn't ge
>the stick forwards. I saw that one.
>And one where the instructor seems to have had a heart attack
and the pupi
>didn't cope.
>
>The Puchacz recovery process is normal and what matters is to
move th
>stick forwards to pitch the nose down to reduce the angle of
attack and s
>unstall the wing. It takes more movement than a Ka13 but not
more than
>lot of single seaters.
>
>Chris
>


Well said Chris! The Puchacz is a superb training machine . It
comes out of the spin as well as it goes in! Anything will hurt if
you don’t use the correct recovery procedure of spin too close to
Mother Earth.

Mark

[Mark Wright[_2_]]

At 19:31 05 July 2018, Mark Wright wrote:
>At 06:44 05 July 2018, Chris Rowland wrote:
>>At 05:33 05 July 2018, Bruce Hoult wrote:
>>>On Wednesday, July 4, 2018 at 9:38:27 PM UTC-7, Charlie
>Quebec wrote:
>>>> Because of the large number that have spun to the ground
>and killed the
>>>occupants perhaps?
>>>> The Puch is overepresented in these kinds of accidents.
>>>
>>>And generally with an instructor on board. And not spinning
>accidentall
>>in
>>>the circuit, but spins deliberately initiated at altitude.
>>>
>>>They recover just fine 99.99% of the time. But it seems that
>every s
>>often
>>>.. no.
>>>
>>All the Puchacz spin ins I know of had a most likely reason that
n
>>recovery action was initiated.
>>
>>One because a couple of instructors kept it spinning until too
low
>t
>>recover. There was a voice recording and no indication of a
>proble
>>recovering, or any attempt to do so.
>>One because it had a low cable break and the instructor did a
>low circuit
>>got too slow round the final turn.
>>One because the pupil froze on the controls so the instructor
>couldn't ge
>>the stick forwards. I saw that one.
>>And one where the instructor seems to have had a heart attack
>and the pupi
>>didn't cope.
>>
>>The Puchacz recovery process is normal and what matters is to
>move th
>>stick forwards to pitch the nose down to reduce the angle of
>attack and s
>>unstall the wing. It takes more movement than a Ka13 but not
>more than
>>lot of single seaters.
>>
>>Chris
>>
>
>
>Well said Chris! The Puchacz is a superb training machine . It
>comes out of the spin as well as it goes in! Anything will hurt if
>you don’t use the correct recovery procedure of spin too close to
>Mother Earth.
>
>Mark
>
>
P.S. I think the accelerated spin to which you refer is called a high
speed stall with yaw in the U.K..

[Don Johnstone[_4_]]

At 06:36 04 July 2018, CindyB wrote:

>Don't spin a Puch without chutes and a hard deck(>1000m agl). Ever.
>
>Best wishes,
>
>Cindy B

Setting a hard deck of 1000ft agl is not really of much use. It is very
unlikely that you would be able to make a successful abandonment if in
a spin at 1000ft. You should really double that if you are serious about
having a hard deck which leaves you with another option if the spin
cannot be stopped. I rejected an abandonment with a control restriction
in level flight at 1000ft as I was not sure that I had the time. My
parachute was reputed to open and decelerate in time at 750ft when it
was new.

The reasons why Puchs have spun in is speculative in most cases. In
most cases the only witnesses worth anything at all, who could tell you
what happened, couldn't. It is very easy to blame pilots who are unable
to speak for themselves. As far as I can make out in most cases the
cause should have been recorded as undetermined. Probably is just not
good enough.
>

[Steve Koerner]

On Thursday, July 5, 2018 at 3:00:06 PM UTC-7, Don Johnstone wrote:
> At 06:36 04 July 2018, CindyB wrote:
>
> >Don't spin a Puch without chutes and a hard deck(>1000m agl). Ever.
> >
> >Best wishes,
> >
> >Cindy B
>
> Setting a hard deck of 1000ft agl is not really of much use. It is very
> unlikely that you would be able to make a successful abandonment if in
> a spin at 1000ft. You should really double that if you are serious about
> having a hard deck which leaves you with another option if the spin
> cannot be stopped. I rejected an abandonment with a control restriction
> in level flight at 1000ft as I was not sure that I had the time. My
> parachute was reputed to open and decelerate in time at 750ft when it
> was new.
>
> The reasons why Puchs have spun in is speculative in most cases. In
> most cases the only witnesses worth anything at all, who could tell you
> what happened, couldn't. It is very easy to blame pilots who are unable
> to speak for themselves. As far as I can make out in most cases the
> cause should have been recorded as undetermined. Probably is just not
> good enough.
> >

Don: Cindy said meters not feet.

[Richard McLean[_2_]]

I have also been instructing & regularly spinning the Puchacz in many different configurations for 17 years now. In Australia our "hard deck" has always been 1000ft agl.

[Don Johnstone[_4_]]

At 22:35 05 July 2018, Steve Koerner wrote:
>On Thursday, July 5, 2018 at 3:00:06 PM UTC-7, Don Johnstone
wrote:
>> At 06:36 04 July 2018, CindyB wrote:
>>
>> >Don't spin a Puch without chutes and a hard deck(>1000m
agl). Ever.
>> >
>> >Best wishes,
>> >
>> >Cindy B
>>
>> Setting a hard deck of 1000ft agl is not really of much use. It is
very
>> unlikely that you would be able to make a successful
abandonment if in
>> a spin at 1000ft. You should really double that if you are serious
about
>> having a hard deck which leaves you with another option if the
spin
>> cannot be stopped. I rejected an abandonment with a control
restriction
>> in level flight at 1000ft as I was not sure that I had the time. My
>> parachute was reputed to open and decelerate in time at 750ft
when it
>> was new.
>>
>> The reasons why Puchs have spun in is speculative in most
cases. In
>> most cases the only witnesses worth anything at all, who could
tell you
>> what happened, couldn't. It is very easy to blame pilots who are
unable
>> to speak for themselves. As far as I can make out in most cases
the
>> cause should have been recorded as undetermined. Probably is
just not
>> good enough.
>> >
>
>Don: Cindy said meters not feet.

Sorry I missed that, 1000 metres is a sensible number.
>

[Soarin Again[_2_]]

At 03:03 25 June 2018, wrote:
>I witnessed Jantar Std3 doing 180 from downwind to short final in 60
>degree of bank at an altitude about 150 feet. In the middle of RIGHT 180
>turn the glider flipped LEFT and made ONE full turn of accelerated spin in
>about 2-3 seconds before hitting ground.

Does anyone know the date and location of this accident. I haven't heard
back from the original poster in this regard.

[Steve Koerner]

Normally you think of a spin associated with turning flight where there is an inside wing that is going slower than the outside wing and thus already at a higher AOA than the outside wing. The discussion about flipping into a spin to the outside seems very weird until you start thinking about a turn at very high bank angle.

Consider a turn at 90 deg bank angle. In that case there no longer is an inside wing going slower than the other. Both wings are on equal footing with respect to their vulnerability to stall. In a very steep turn, it's easy to see that the top wing could well stall first if there was a bit of yawing action introduced or if the air had the right sort of irregularity to it. Near the ground, horizontal wind shear is the commonplace and could easily provide the irregularity that would be the impetus for a "backwards" spin. Clearly, depending on the degree of shear that's going on, the bank angle could be well less than 90 degrees and still get the backwards spin induced.

[[email protected]]

n Friday, July 6, 2018 at 3:14:51 PM UTC-4, Steve Koerner wrote:
It is confusing when the top wing is coming down instead of the bottom wing, for sure, but the airplane is spinning to the direction of the rudder. To recover, opposite rudder and forward stick is needed, just like the "normal" spin.
Dan
> Normally you think of a spin associated with turning flight where there is an inside wing that is going slower than the outside wing and thus already at a higher AOA than the outside wing. The discussion about flipping into a spin to the outside seems very weird until you start thinking about a turn at very high bank angle.
>
> Consider a turn at 90 deg bank angle. In that case there no longer is an inside wing going slower than the other. Both wings are on equal footing with respect to their vulnerability to stall. In a very steep turn, it's easy to see that the top wing could well stall first if there was a bit of yawing action introduced or if the air had the right sort of irregularity to it. Near the ground, horizontal wind shear is the commonplace and could easily provide the irregularity that would be the impetus for a "backwards" spin. Clearly, depending on the degree of shear that's going on, the bank angle could be well less than 90 degrees and still get the backwards spin induced.

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

OK, any decent comments in this thread.

My feeling, many things happen at low altitude.

Wind shear
Wind gradient
Wind shift due to ground based stuff (trees, hills, buildings, etc.)
Thermal wind shift
Changed pilot perspective
Major change in pitch attitude vs. horizon (trees or hills have a big impact here)
Unintentional control inputs (rudder the turn is common and may be missed)

Below 800' agl or so, things are different.

Add in different quality of control seals, maybe different wing twist (either as built or later repairs) plus things I listed above, close to the ground has a bad habit of accentuating ANYTHING done wrong or incorrect.

The only time I have been "caught unaware" for a spin was when I was behind the aft limit in a ASW-20 (medium story, not worth repeating unless asked).
This was at altitude, took it in stride, remembered when in the pattern.

My early training was, "does it look good, does it sound good, does it feel good?". If not, fix it.......! Now......

Not saying departed pilots did something wrong, nor that there are killer ships out there.
Just saying things are/seem different when low and the escape margin is either thin or nonexistent.

Carry on the discussion.

[[email protected]]

Years ago I read an article in a R/C model magazine which included the advice

"Stay 3 mistakes high"

Not bad advice for piloted vehicles as well...

[Paul Cordell]

On Wednesday, July 4, 2018 at 10:30:55 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> My bad, mine is 272PC. New to me last August. I have reserved 272CH but not sure its worth the effort to change it :)
>
> Cliff Hilty (CH) ASW27

I wasn't going to say anything :)