Ventus 3F - Fatal

[Jock Proudfoot]

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/new-
mexico/articles/2018-07-11/albuquerque-man-dies-in-glider-crash-
near-moriarty-airport

[MNLou]

And this - https://www.abqjournal.com/1195405/glider-pilot-killed-in-crash-near-moriarty.html

RIP Reeny:(

[Craig Funston[_3_]]

On Thursday, July 12, 2018 at 12:45:06 PM UTC-7, Jock Proudfoot wrote:
> https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/new-
> mexico/articles/2018-07-11/albuquerque-man-dies-in-glider-crash-
> near-moriarty-airport

Sad news. Condolences to his family and friends.

Craig

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

I didn't know him.
Sad to lose a pilot.

Condolences to family and friends.

[Dan Marotta]

My wife helped Renny remove his tail dolly and I launched him.Â* Then we
went home and didn't learn of this tragedy until the following day.

Deepest condolences to his family and to his many friends.Â* He will be
missed.

Dan

On 7/12/2018 1:59 PM, MNLou wrote:
> And this - https://www.abqjournal.com/1195405/glider-pilot-killed-in-crash-near-moriarty.html
>
> RIP Reeny:(

--
Dan, 5J

[Paul Remde]

This is very sad news. Renny was always, always extremely friendly. He was so excited about his new V3.

Condolences to family and friends.

Paul Remde

On Thursday, July 12, 2018 at 2:45:06 PM UTC-5, Jock Proudfoot wrote:
> https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/new-
> mexico/articles/2018-07-11/albuquerque-man-dies-in-glider-crash-
> near-moriarty-airport

[Nick Kennedy]

Rest in Peace Renny

I've go to say these accidents scare the crap out of me.
How can this happen? Renny flew so much he was almost a professional glider pilot. And yet he goes in landing at his home airport.
How can this happen?
Is glider flying really THAT dangerous and unpredictable?
I don't feel that way but accidents like this make me pause and wonder WTF are we doing? and why?
It's suppose to be fun this soaring and this is not fun.
Renny and so many others will be greatly missed....
So Tragic, this accident.

[Michael Opitz]

At 01:37 13 July 2018, Nick Kennedy wrote:
>Rest in Peace Renny
>
>I've go to say these accidents scare the crap out of me.
>How can this happen? Renny flew so much he was almost a
professional glider
>pilot. And yet he goes in landing at his home airport.
>How can this happen?
>Is glider flying really THAT dangerous and unpredictable?
>I don't feel that way but accidents like this make me pause and
wonder WTF
>are we doing? and why?
>It's suppose to be fun this soaring and this is not fun.
>Renny and so many others will be greatly missed....
>So Tragic, this accident.
>
>
We are all getting older. There have been a number of physiological
incapacitation accidents in recent years in our community. Let's
wait for the NTSB to make their findings.

In the mean time, condolences to his family and friends.

RO

[Ramy[_2_]]

Nick’s thoughts are my thoughts exactly. How do we have so much unexplained accidents? Tragic!
Sure, we can wait 2 years for the NTSB report, which will be completely useless unless the local glider pilots will work together with the NTSB and hope for a good investigator, as was the case recently in California. Meanwhile I hope we can learn something.
It is easy and comforting to blame unexplained accidents on health related incapacitation, but I believe this may be true only in small fraction of accidents.
This had been a sad year so far, and we got very lucky in few accidents which did not end up fatal but could have been easily.

Ramy

[Bruce Hoult]

On Thursday, July 12, 2018 at 8:20:58 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
> Nick’s thoughts are my thoughts exactly. How do we have so much unexplained accidents? Tragic!
> Sure, we can wait 2 years for the NTSB report, which will be completely useless unless the local glider pilots will work together with the NTSB and hope for a good investigator, as was the case recently in California. Meanwhile I hope we can learn something.
> It is easy and comforting to blame unexplained accidents on health related incapacitation, but I believe this may be true only in small fraction of accidents.

As someone now old enough to see a small but alarming number of younger friends and relatives dropping dead I don't find this comforting at all!

Events that might be quite survivable if they happen in a shopping centre or even on a highway (where you can pull over and stop in less than ten seconds) would be an entirely different matter when flying solo thousands of feet up.

[Tony[_5_]]

Had a great visit with him at the the SSA Convention in front of his new V3. So sad...

[Frank Whiteley]

On Thursday, July 12, 2018 at 1:45:06 PM UTC-6, Jock Proudfoot wrote:
> https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/new-
> mexico/articles/2018-07-11/albuquerque-man-dies-in-glider-crash-
> near-moriarty-airport

Renny was a good friend to soaring and the SSA. We communicated often and he frequently checked in with Denise at the office. He served a year as an SSA Director at Large and was a member of the Editorial Advisory Committee.. I found him to be an excellent public speaker and tried to get him to do more of that in support of soaring.

My condolences to his friends and family.

Frank Whiteley, SSA Director, Region 9

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, July 12, 2018 at 9:20:58 PM UTC-6, Ramy wrote:
> Nick’s thoughts are my thoughts exactly. How do we have so much unexplained accidents? Tragic!
> Sure, we can wait 2 years for the NTSB report, which will be completely useless unless the local glider pilots will work together with the NTSB and hope for a good investigator, as was the case recently in California. Meanwhile I hope we can learn something.
> It is easy and comforting to blame unexplained accidents on health related incapacitation, but I believe this may be true only in small fraction of accidents.
> This had been a sad year so far, and we got very lucky in few accidents which did not end up fatal but could have been easily.
>
> Ramy

For the record, the local FSDO is glider friendly and their rep was very thorough in the questions he asked. The NTSB rep was the Denver office manager who normally does not make house calls. He is a former AF pilot, as well as a balloon pilot and had flown gliders while at test pilot school. He was very respectful of the circumstances and was also very thorough regarding the questions he asked. I'm sure his initial report will reflect his efforts to arrive at a conclusion based on the facts at hand.

Billy Hill (Zulu)

[Retting]

What do they normally do? They being the NTSB? Or the FAA for that matter.
Y’all quit smoking that weed out there....good Lord Jesus.
R

[Waveguru]

During the interview that I recently had with the NTSB over the fatality here in Arizona, the NTSB employees lied to my face about information they had and it was totally unnecessary. I was ****ed when I found out the truth. They are not our friends, even tho they try hard to make it seem that they are. They expect you to be honest, but they are apparently not.

Boggs

[Retting]

So they were malicious, unethical, unprofessional, lying government employees by your experience supported by undisputed facts.
OK Bogg, send me their names and contacts, location along with your evidence and I will personally see to it that they answer your allegations.
Arizona, recent fatality, glider maybe. Got it. Will plan on contacting people right away. Send along info I requested. Good chance someone will contact you.
You can find my contact info on the SSA site. I have yours.
Thank you.
R

[Waveguru]

Well Retting, you are putting a lot of words in there that I never used. They looked me right in the eye and lied over and over, but what good could possibly come from exposing them? Will I will be exposing myself to retribution from the FAA? You think it will change anything? I’m pretty sure it is illegal to lie to them, which I would not do, but I’m pretty sure it is not against any of their rules to lie to us. This is a no win situation, and like I said, it wasn’t about anything that was really significant in the long run, it it was also totally unnecessary for them to lie to me. It just points out that they cannot be trusted and that they are not our friends.

Boggs

[2G]

Hey, Boggs, PUT UP OR SHUT UP!

Tom

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, July 12, 2018 at 9:45:06 PM UTC+2, Jock Proudfoot wrote:
> https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/new-
> mexico/articles/2018-07-11/albuquerque-man-dies-in-glider-crash-
> near-moriarty-airport

>> He was so excited about his new V3.

There's a hint. Not saying this is the cause for this accident, but it's sad to see how many people in the past have gotten into trouble for being too confident flying a new aircraft they haven't yet fully figured out. I know all of you who have been around aircraft for any significant amount of time know what I am talking about. Last time I saw this happen was in Mass., where a new pilot from the UK had never flown an aircraft with flaps and got them wrong on final. He ended up in a tree at the far end of the runway, thankfully with nothing but a bruised ego, but we never saw him again.

[Dan Marotta]

Renny was a very thoughtful and careful pilot.Â* His hangar faced mine
and I was there when he brought his new V3 home.Â* Were it me, I would
have flown it that day, but Renny spent well over a week making sure
everything was just right before taking it up for the first time.

Previously he'd flown a LAK-17bFES for 8 or 9 years, so the added
complexity of the FES was probably not an issue.Â* Before that it was a
Discus, I believe; that was before I met him so I can't say for sure,
but I understand he'd flown gliders for around 40 years.

I don't believe his excitement about his new ship had anything to do
with his unfortunate accident.Â* And, though I have little faith in the
outcome of a formal investigation, I'll wait to see what they say before
making any judgments.

On 7/15/2018 4:22 AM, wrote:
> On Thursday, July 12, 2018 at 9:45:06 PM UTC+2, Jock Proudfoot wrote:
>> https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/new-
>> mexico/articles/2018-07-11/albuquerque-man-dies-in-glider-crash-
>> near-moriarty-airport
>>> He was so excited about his new V3.
> There's a hint. Not saying this is the cause for this accident, but it's sad to see how many people in the past have gotten into trouble for being too confident flying a new aircraft they haven't yet fully figured out. I know all of you who have been around aircraft for any significant amount of time know what I am talking about. Last time I saw this happen was in Mass., where a new pilot from the UK had never flown an aircraft with flaps and got them wrong on final. He ended up in a tree at the far end of the runway, thankfully with nothing but a bruised ego, but we never saw him again.

--
Dan, 5J

[glidergeek]

On Thursday, July 12, 2018 at 12:45:06 PM UTC-7, Jock Proudfoot wrote:
> https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/new-
> mexico/articles/2018-07-11/albuquerque-man-dies-in-glider-crash-
> near-moriarty-airport

I'm shocked! I first met Renny around 1998 when I bought his Standard Cirrus. He was a salesman working for Shell oil I think. Definitely a salesman but definitely a gentleman. Very enthusiastic about soaring. I bought a DG-600 that he helped a widow sell also in about 2005. You guys in Moriarty know him the best and I'm sure all will miss him and remember him till you are all gone too.

RIP Renny thoughts and prayers to your family.
Russ

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, July 15, 2018 at 12:22:03 PM UTC+2, wrote:
>
> Last time I saw this happen was in Mass., where a new pilot from the UK had never flown an aircraft with flaps and got them wrong on final.

I meant to say "where a highy experienced pilot from the UK with a new glider had never flown an aircraft with flaps..."

[Dan Marotta]

The LAK-17 is a flapped ship, so I doubt flaps had anything to do with
it.Â* Let's not blame the pilot prematurely.

On 7/15/2018 8:25 AM, wrote:
> On Sunday, July 15, 2018 at 12:22:03 PM UTC+2, wrote:
>> Last time I saw this happen was in Mass., where a new pilot from the UK had never flown an aircraft with flaps and got them wrong on final.
> I meant to say "where a highy experienced pilot from the UK with a new glider had never flown an aircraft with flaps..."

--
Dan, 5J

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, July 15, 2018 at 5:37:11 PM UTC+2, Dan Marotta wrote:
> The LAK-17 is a flapped ship, so I doubt flaps had anything to do with
> it.Â* Let's not blame the pilot prematurely.

Better yet, let's not put words in my mouth. You said that, not me. What I said is crystal clear: "Not saying this is the cause for this accident..."

[[email protected]]

Anybody check the tail weight? Remember the guy that told the factory to put in 4 pounds of tail weight and they put in 4 kilograms! I have had good relations with the Federollies over the years, but found it necessary to lead them in the right direction, a time or two. We had an accident where the spoilers stuck wide open and the ship crashed on final. Feds missed the cause completely and I filed the defect report that generated an AD.
Sad news,
JJ

[Mike C]

On Sunday, July 15, 2018 at 3:04:02 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> Anybody check the tail weight? Remember the guy that told the factory to put in 4 pounds of tail weight and they put in 4 kilograms! I have had good relations with the Federollies over the years, but found it necessary to lead them in the right direction, a time or two. We had an accident where the spoilers stuck wide open and the ship crashed on final. Feds missed the cause completely and I filed the defect report that generated an AD.
> Sad news,
> JJ

Yes.

According to Renny, when I spoke to him two weeks or so before the accident, there had been a W&B done several flights prior and the sailplane was flying with a reasonable CG position - don't remember the exact number but mid range-ish.

Mike

[George Haeh]

Is there any information on the weather conditions?

SeeYou Mobile, if present, can record True Airspeed and Groundspeed in one second intervals, depending on the instrumentation.

Sudden changes in TAS - GS demonstrate windshear.

[Mike C]

On Sunday, July 15, 2018 at 8:15:25 PM UTC-6, George Haeh wrote:
> Is there any information on the weather conditions?
>
> SeeYou Mobile, if present, can record True Airspeed and Groundspeed in one second intervals, depending on the instrumentation.
>
> Sudden changes in TAS - GS demonstrate windshear.

According to a friend on the ground that day, conditions at the airport did not seem severe at any time during Renny's flight. Pilots reported good soaring conditions via OLC.

I was told there is recorded tracking info.

Mike

[[email protected]]

Again very sad news......

My condolences to all

AE

[[email protected]]

Hello. For any of you who were friends of Renny's, I'm gathering memories and photos for the family and would like to invite you to participate. Please send a message to me with the word "BoomBox" in the subject line and I'll invite you.

I'm guessing most of you are not local, but for anyone local who would like service information here it is:

Services have been scheduled for Monday, July 23rd as follows:

10:00 am
Mass
John XXIII Catholic Church
4831 Tramway Ridge Drive NE
Albuquerque, NM 87111
(Near Tramway and Montgomery)

11:00 am to 1:00 pm
Reception
French Funerals & Cremations
7121 Wyoming Blvd NE
Albuquerque, NM 87109
(Near Wyoming and San Antonio)

Internment will take place at Santa Fe National Cemetery that afternoon.

Please feel free to share this information with Renny's flying family.

[WB]

On Friday, July 20, 2018 at 6:30:07 PM UTC-5, Jock Proudfoot wrote:
> National Transportation Safety Board
> Aviation Accident Preliminary Report
>
> The glider was equipped with a FLARM electronic flight collision
> alerting device, which records flight track, altitude, and airspeed.
> About 11 seconds prior to impact with the ground, the glider entered a
> left hand descending spiral at an airspeed of 48 knots, which continued
> to ground impact.
>
> https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/ReportGeneratorFile.ashx?
> EventID=20180710X25659&AKey=1&RType=HTML&IType=FA
> .

Doesn't really sound like a stall/spin from low altitude. Sounds more like the behavior of a glider trimmed for an off-field landing with no one at the controls.

[Steve Koerner]

On Friday, July 20, 2018 at 6:15:40 PM UTC-7, WB wrote:
> On Friday, July 20, 2018 at 6:30:07 PM UTC-5, Jock Proudfoot wrote:
> > National Transportation Safety Board
> > Aviation Accident Preliminary Report
> >
> > The glider was equipped with a FLARM electronic flight collision
> > alerting device, which records flight track, altitude, and airspeed.
> > About 11 seconds prior to impact with the ground, the glider entered a
> > left hand descending spiral at an airspeed of 48 knots, which continued
> > to ground impact.
> >
> > https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/ReportGeneratorFile.ashx?
> > EventID=20180710X25659&AKey=1&RType=HTML&IType=FA
> > .
>
> Doesn't really sound like a stall/spin from low altitude. Sounds more like the behavior of a glider trimmed for an off-field landing with no one at the controls.

WB: In what way does it not sound like stall/spin? Secondly, what do you mean about trimmed for an off-field landing? I've never heard about trimming differently for an on-field landing vs an off-field landing?

Separate remark: Flarm does not record airspeed as stated in the report. It could be that airspeed was inferred from the spiral descent dynamics; but that seems more complicated than suggested by the brevity of this preliminary report.

[George Haeh]

Flarm obtains aircraft data from GPS and an internal static pressure sensor. Speed would be calculated from GPS position change and possibly altitude change yielding either 2D or 3D groundspeed, not airspeed.

Possibly wind aloft could be estimated from changes in groundspeed on different tracks and used to produce an airspeed, but any gusts would make a hash of such an estimate.

[Mike the Strike]

On Saturday, July 21, 2018 at 5:19:42 AM UTC+1, George Haeh wrote:
> Flarm obtains aircraft data from GPS and an internal static pressure sensor. Speed would be calculated from GPS position change and possibly altitude change yielding either 2D or 3D groundspeed, not airspeed.
>
> Possibly wind aloft could be estimated from changes in groundspeed on different tracks and used to produce an airspeed, but any gusts would make a hash of such an estimate.

If you download the igc file from the Flarm into a program such as SeeYou, you will get a decent estimate of both ground speed and airspeed, presumably the latter calculated from the GPS ground speed, allowing for density altitude. I am assuming that the investigator was able to do this.

I examined Renny's previous two logged flights in the V3 at Moriarty and he maintained air speeds in excess of 60 knots on the descent to landing.

Given the good handling characteristics of the V3, I find it hard to believe that an experienced pilot like Renny misjudged his approach and entered a stall/spin and that some degree of pilot incapacitation seems more likely.

However, rather than speculate with incomplete information, perhaps we should wait for the final report.

Mike

[[email protected]]

I would have interpreted the mention of 48 knots as being a descent rate shown on the data recorder file (= around 880ft/11seconds).

[jfitch]

On Saturday, July 21, 2018 at 2:15:40 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> I would have interpreted the mention of 48 knots as being a descent rate shown on the data recorder file (= around 880ft/11seconds).

The report clearly says airspeed not descent rate. Default Flarm setting is 4 second fixes so 11 seconds represents at most 3 fixes. 11 seconds from normal flight to impact indicates a very low altitude no matter how you interpret it.

[Mike the Strike]

On Saturday, July 21, 2018 at 3:34:58 PM UTC+1, jfitch wrote:
> On Saturday, July 21, 2018 at 2:15:40 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> > I would have interpreted the mention of 48 knots as being a descent rate shown on the data recorder file (= around 880ft/11seconds).
>
> The report clearly says airspeed not descent rate. Default Flarm setting is 4 second fixes so 11 seconds represents at most 3 fixes. 11 seconds from normal flight to impact indicates a very low altitude no matter how you interpret it.

The previous two igc files of Renny's I looked at have the default 4 second recording interval. In these, it appears that he arrived back at Moriarty high and perhaps spoilered down, entering the pattern at around 1,000 to 1,500 feet AGL. In both of these landings, he maintained plenty of height and speed through his base and final turns, slowing down only on final just before touchdown. Of course, we have no idea what happened on his last flight, but his previous flights in the V3 show no signs of sloppiness that might result in loss of control.

Mike

[[email protected]]

On Saturday, July 21, 2018 at 4:34:58 PM UTC+2, jfitch wrote:
> On Saturday, July 21, 2018 at 2:15:40 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> > I would have interpreted the mention of 48 knots as being a descent rate shown on the data recorder file (= around 880ft/11seconds).
>
> The report clearly says airspeed not descent rate. Default Flarm setting is 4 second fixes so 11 seconds represents at most 3 fixes. 11 seconds from normal flight to impact indicates a very low altitude no matter how you interpret it.

FLARM does -not- report or calculate airspeed. The device only calculates positions from GPS fixes and has a pressure sensor to enhance that information, but any airspeed or groundspeed calculations are only speculative approximations from the GPS data in the logs. From the GPS fixes of itself and those transmitted from nearby aircraft it then calculates threat levels and warns you appropriately if necessary.

[[email protected]]

On Saturday, July 21, 2018 at 10:02:16 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> On Saturday, July 21, 2018 at 4:34:58 PM UTC+2, jfitch wrote:
> > On Saturday, July 21, 2018 at 2:15:40 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> > > I would have interpreted the mention of 48 knots as being a descent rate shown on the data recorder file (= around 880ft/11seconds).
> >
> > The report clearly says airspeed not descent rate. Default Flarm setting is 4 second fixes so 11 seconds represents at most 3 fixes. 11 seconds from normal flight to impact indicates a very low altitude no matter how you interpret it.
>
> FLARM does -not- report or calculate airspeed. The device only calculates positions from GPS fixes and has a pressure sensor to enhance that information, but any airspeed or groundspeed calculations are only speculative approximations from the GPS data in the logs. From the GPS fixes of itself and those transmitted from nearby aircraft it then calculates threat levels and warns you appropriately if necessary.

Another good reason to go to a 1 sec recording interval. Memory is cheap, why do people not use the best resolution our flight recorders offer?

[George Haeh]

In my glider the Oudie receives and records TAS and Groundspeed supplied by the Air Glide S in one second intervals.

The instrumentation may offer more complete data.

If you happen to have advanced varios, you might want to leave some notes on what data can be extracted if your family and fellow pilots are looking for answers.

[MNLou]

From the report "the glider entered a left hand descending spiral at an airspeed of 48 knots, which continued to ground impact."

If the spiral continued at 48 kts until impact, that is one scenario.

If the spiral continued but the IAS increased, that would be an entirely different scenario.

I wish the NTSB had been more clear on that wording.

Lou

[[email protected]]

Listening to ourselves and knowing our limitations ought to be a topic covered more often in Soaring magazine. Age will no doubt be a factor in a growing percentage of accidents as the glider pilot population continues to age.. Likewise, hydration and heat stroke should be topics of concern for everyone flying mid-summer.

R6N flew 4 days straight in 90+ degree weather. We took the 5th day off partly for SAFETY. In hindsight, I have no regrets despite taking off what clearly turned out to be the best soaring day of the contest (the sky looked like Uvalde), which says a lot when you're flying out of Adrian, Michigan.

Fwiw, Sandhill Soaring Club lost a club member just 2 weeks prior to the start of R6N. The deceased member's wife is certain her husband succumbed to heat and died of heart complications. Luckily, he wasn't operating an aircraft when it happened.

In any case, ALL pilots (not just aging pilots), need to consider their health history, known physiological limitations, their present physical and mental health, stress levels, medications, and lastly the current weather conditions at the airport.

The following article speaks volumes on the issue and identifies factors that increase risk of heat stroke and/or heart failure. See: https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/heat-is-hard-on-the-heart-simple-precautions-can-ease-the-strain-201107223180

Safe soaring!

Chris Schrader (CN)



On Thursday, July 12, 2018 at 10:15:06 PM UTC-4, Michael Opitz wrote:

> We are all getting older. There have been a number of physiological
> incapacitation accidents in recent years in our community. Let's
> wait for the NTSB to make their findings.
>
> In the mean time, condolences to his family and friends.
>
> RO

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 6:48:24 AM UTC+2, wrote:
> Listening to ourselves and knowing our limitations ought to be a topic covered more often in Soaring magazine. Age will no doubt be a factor in a growing percentage of accidents as the glider pilot population continues to age. Likewise, hydration and heat stroke should be topics of concern for everyone flying mid-summer.
>
> R6N flew 4 days straight in 90+ degree weather. We took the 5th day off partly for SAFETY. In hindsight, I have no regrets despite taking off what clearly turned out to be the best soaring day of the contest (the sky looked like Uvalde), which says a lot when you're flying out of Adrian, Michigan.
>
> Fwiw, Sandhill Soaring Club lost a club member just 2 weeks prior to the start of R6N. The deceased member's wife is certain her husband succumbed to heat and died of heart complications. Luckily, he wasn't operating an aircraft when it happened.
>
> In any case, ALL pilots (not just aging pilots), need to consider their health history, known physiological limitations, their present physical and mental health, stress levels, medications, and lastly the current weather conditions at the airport.
>
> The following article speaks volumes on the issue and identifies factors that increase risk of heat stroke and/or heart failure. See: https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/heat-is-hard-on-the-heart-simple-precautions-can-ease-the-strain-201107223180
>
> Safe soaring!
>
> Chris Schrader (CN)
>
>
>
> On Thursday, July 12, 2018 at 10:15:06 PM UTC-4, Michael Opitz wrote:
>
> > We are all getting older. There have been a number of physiological
> > incapacitation accidents in recent years in our community. Let's
> > wait for the NTSB to make their findings.
> >
> > In the mean time, condolences to his family and friends.
> >
> > RO

+1!!

[Ian[_2_]]

On 21/07/2018 01:23, Jock Proudfoot wrote:
> National Transportation Safety Board
> Aviation Accident Preliminary Report
>
> The glider was equipped with a FLARM electronic flight collision
> alerting device, which records flight track, altitude, and airspeed.
> About 11 seconds prior to impact with the ground, the glider entered a
> left hand descending spiral at an airspeed of 48 knots, which continued
> to ground impact.
>
> https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/ReportGeneratorFile.ashx?
> EventID=20180710X25659&AKey=1&RType=HTML&IType=FA

A turn with 48 knots airspeed implies thermalling. 11 seconds prior to
impact is not time enough to complete a single turn. The aircraft must
have been very low at that 11 second point. There are lots of unanswered
questions.

The earlier part of the trace will show how high the glider was before
impact and what phase of flight it was in, ie in circuit or low on final
glide.

There is no report on wind or turbulence. One assumes it was not a
contributing factor.

It is very sad to loose another pilot. Especially a very experienced one
in a brand new glider design. Strength to all those who knew him and to
the factory too.

[[email protected]]

Dehydration?
I remember an accident where I saw the aircraft thermalling so low, he was casting a shadow. He caught a wing shortly thereafter................pilot doesn't remember anything after breakfast. He was severely dehydrated!
Tried Mio lemonade this year, just a squirt in a cold water bottle makes all the difference in the world. Drank 3 bottles before takeoff. If your not peeing in flight, your dehydrated and it can be a killer! I got my LS-6 from a salvage after the pilot landed in 8 foot high corn, within sight of the airport! Pilot wasn't drinking any water and had become severely dehydrated!
Condolences,
JJ

[WB]

On Friday, July 20, 2018 at 10:19:01 PM UTC-5, Steve Koerner wrote:
> On Friday, July 20, 2018 at 6:15:40 PM UTC-7, WB wrote:
> > On Friday, July 20, 2018 at 6:30:07 PM UTC-5, Jock Proudfoot wrote:
> > > National Transportation Safety Board
> > > Aviation Accident Preliminary Report
> > >
> > > The glider was equipped with a FLARM electronic flight collision
> > > alerting device, which records flight track, altitude, and airspeed.
> > > About 11 seconds prior to impact with the ground, the glider entered a
> > > left hand descending spiral at an airspeed of 48 knots, which continued
> > > to ground impact.
> > >
> > > https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/ReportGeneratorFile.ashx?
> > > EventID=20180710X25659&AKey=1&RType=HTML&IType=FA
> > > .
> >
> > Doesn't really sound like a stall/spin from low altitude. Sounds more like the behavior of a glider trimmed for an off-field landing with no one at the controls.
>
> WB: In what way does it not sound like stall/spin? Secondly, what do you mean about trimmed for an off-field landing? I've never heard about trimming differently for an on-field landing vs an off-field landing?
> > Separate remark: Flarm does not record airspeed as stated in the report.. It could be that airspeed was inferred from the spiral descent dynamics; but that seems more complicated than suggested by the brevity of this preliminary report.

11 seconds just seems like a very long time to be in a spin or spiral dive. 11 seconds suggests adequate altitude and enough time for an unimpaired pilot to recognize the problem and perform a recovery. I am under the impression that most stall/spins to impact start below 200 feet and usually the glider only makes a partial rotation before impact. Just guessing, but wouldn't a spiral dive of 11 seconds duration involve shedding parts before impact?

Regarding trimming for an off field landing: If one is landing in a smaller than usual space, one might trim the glider to fly at the minimum safe approach speed. In my 301 Libelle, I trim for the pattern speed that I want, usually about +-60 knots depending on wind, and slow up on final. If I am landing in a tight field, I might trim down around +-50 knots if it's calm. In my 20, the trim is left to float and the glider trims out based on flap setting (until one gets to the "jeezus!" notch). I've never flown a Ventus of any flavor, and don't know if the Ventus drivers typically even bother to set trim or let it float. As someone else pointed out, 48 knots is also a plausible thermalling speed.

Answering the "separate remark" question: My first thought was that the NTSB report was sloppily written when it stated "airspeed" since the PFlarm wouldn't know airspeed. However, I read that PFlarm will record airspeed if it is being fed that information from another instrument like a modern complex vario. So maybe the NTSB did get airspeed.

It is just terribly frustrating that we keep losing skilled and experienced people to these puzzling crashes. Scares the crap out of me to be honest.

Please fly safely.

[[email protected]]

One last time... FLARM does not need, nor does it record airspeed, for a simple reason: airspeed cannot be used to calculate closure rates between your aircraft and others, or ground obstructions. It works entirely from GPS fixes. It only uses a pressure sensor to enhance altitude data, but does not strictly need it. To my knowledge, no FLARM devices have inputs for airspeed.

Read the manual, folks. It's all documented there, in great detail.

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Tuesday, July 24, 2018 at 1:23:25 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> One last time... FLARM does not need, nor does it record airspeed, for a simple reason: airspeed cannot be used to calculate closure rates between your aircraft and others, or ground obstructions. It works entirely from GPS fixes. It only uses a pressure sensor to enhance altitude data, but does not strictly need it. To my knowledge, no FLARM devices have inputs for airspeed.
>
> Read the manual, folks. It's all documented there, in great detail.

Alarm doesn't record airspeed, but some flight computers do. I know the LXNav records airspeed, flap position ...etc. perhaps this brand new glider had a modern flight computer?

[[email protected]]

That's a different story, and I would not be at all surprised if that were the case.

[Ben Hirashima]

On Tuesday, July 24, 2018 at 9:27:28 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> That's a different story, and I would not be at all surprised if that were the case.

Yes, my LXNav 9050 records airspeed in the IGC file.

[Blue Whale]

OK, I'm an idiot, don't "PowerFLARM units also include an IGC approved GPS flight recorder?"

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, July 24, 2018 at 9:29:03 PM UTC+2, Blue Whale wrote:
> OK, I'm an idiot, don't "PowerFLARM units also include an IGC approved GPS flight recorder?"

Good question! Yes, it certainly does.

"This option will enable you to prove records up to and including diamond badges in accordance with FAI Sporting Code. The option adds a strong cryptographic signature to IGC files as well as enables task declarations. The pressure sensor is uncalibrated, since calibration isn’t necessary for most flights."

The IGC file format does allow for airspeed info, of course, but PowerFLARM does not record Airspeed records in its IGC files, which are limited up to the three diamond badges.

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, July 24, 2018 at 10:13:02 AM UTC-4, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 24, 2018 at 1:23:25 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> > One last time... FLARM does not need, nor does it record airspeed, for a simple reason: airspeed cannot be used to calculate closure rates between your aircraft and others, or ground obstructions. It works entirely from GPS fixes. It only uses a pressure sensor to enhance altitude data, but does not strictly need it. To my knowledge, no FLARM devices have inputs for airspeed.
> >
> > Read the manual, folks. It's all documented there, in great detail.
>
> Alarm doesn't record airspeed, but some flight computers do. I know the LXNav records airspeed, flap position ...etc. perhaps this brand new glider had a modern flight computer?

Some that record lose the last few(up to 15) seconds of the file because the data has not been written to memory. If power is disconnected in the crash this data may be lost.
UH

[Frank Whiteley]

On Tuesday, July 24, 2018 at 2:56:46 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 24, 2018 at 10:13:02 AM UTC-4, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> > On Tuesday, July 24, 2018 at 1:23:25 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> > > One last time... FLARM does not need, nor does it record airspeed, for a simple reason: airspeed cannot be used to calculate closure rates between your aircraft and others, or ground obstructions. It works entirely from GPS fixes. It only uses a pressure sensor to enhance altitude data, but does not strictly need it. To my knowledge, no FLARM devices have inputs for airspeed.
> > >
> > > Read the manual, folks. It's all documented there, in great detail.
> >
> > Alarm doesn't record airspeed, but some flight computers do. I know the LXNav records airspeed, flap position ...etc. perhaps this brand new glider had a modern flight computer?
>
> Some that record lose the last few(up to 15) seconds of the file because the data has not been written to memory. If power is disconnected in the crash this data may be lost.
> UH

That is quit correct, the 15 seconds or so of buffered data may be lost. Those who listen to satellite radio experience this buffer effect when driving through tunnels.

I looked at Renny's OLC logs and his tracker logs. He appears to have accumulated something around 7 hours in the glider. The only thing that appeared oddly interesting about the day in question was that he didn't climb out nor get very far away from Moriarty like the other pilots that day. It could have been he wasn't feeling well, had other plans later that day, or was experimenting with something. I wonder if he may have been experimenting with aft-CG, now that he had some time in the glider. If he wasn't comfortable with how it was handling, it might explain the local nature of the flight, but might also explain an inadvertent departure. I didn't go after the PowerFlarm tracks in time to get a copy, but I know who did. Having helped the FAA and NTSB with a post accident glider fatality, I have some idea of their approach and maybe the limits of what they do. I also know that they will take issue with local coroners and investigations if warranted. Yet, sometimes they don't get all of the information and that the real cause may never be officially revealed or discovered, sometimes under 20 years later, because they never interviewed all concerned.

Frank Whiteley

[Frank Whiteley]

On Tuesday, July 24, 2018 at 10:20:10 PM UTC-6, Frank Whiteley wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 24, 2018 at 2:56:46 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> > On Tuesday, July 24, 2018 at 10:13:02 AM UTC-4, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, July 24, 2018 at 1:23:25 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> > > > One last time... FLARM does not need, nor does it record airspeed, for a simple reason: airspeed cannot be used to calculate closure rates between your aircraft and others, or ground obstructions. It works entirely from GPS fixes. It only uses a pressure sensor to enhance altitude data, but does not strictly need it. To my knowledge, no FLARM devices have inputs for airspeed.
> > > >
> > > > Read the manual, folks. It's all documented there, in great detail.
> > >
> > > Alarm doesn't record airspeed, but some flight computers do. I know the LXNav records airspeed, flap position ...etc. perhaps this brand new glider had a modern flight computer?
> >
> > Some that record lose the last few(up to 15) seconds of the file because the data has not been written to memory. If power is disconnected in the crash this data may be lost.
> > UH
>
> That is quit correct, the 15 seconds or so of buffered data may be lost. Those who listen to satellite radio experience this buffer effect when driving through tunnels.
>
> I looked at Renny's OLC logs and his tracker logs. He appears to have accumulated something around 7 hours in the glider. The only thing that appeared oddly interesting about the day in question was that he didn't climb out nor get very far away from Moriarty like the other pilots that day. It could have been he wasn't feeling well, had other plans later that day, or was experimenting with something. I wonder if he may have been experimenting with aft-CG, now that he had some time in the glider. If he wasn't comfortable with how it was handling, it might explain the local nature of the flight, but might also explain an inadvertent departure. I didn't go after the PowerFlarm tracks in time to get a copy, but I know who did. Having helped the FAA and NTSB with a post accident glider fatality, I have some idea of their approach and maybe the limits of what they do. I also know that they will take issue with local coroners and investigations if warranted. Yet, sometimes they don't get all of the information and that the real cause may never be officially revealed or discovered, sometimes under 20 years later, because they never interviewed all concerned.
>
> Frank Whiteley

until 20 years later

[Tim Taylor]

Was the log from his first flight available? My understanding is there was a similar issue with the first flight. It would be helpful to compare the first and fourth flight logs.

[Frank Whiteley]

On Wednesday, July 25, 2018 at 9:26:30 AM UTC-6, Tim Taylor wrote:
> Was the log from his first flight available? My understanding is there was a similar issue with the first flight. It would be helpful to compare the first and fourth flight logs.

Renny's OLC logbook for 2018 and his inReach flight logs are available online. However there's no upload to OLC for the fourth flight. There may be a copy in the hands of the FAA/NTSB if recovered from the glider.

[[email protected]]

Reminds me of losing Pat Page. Very sad news
God bless him and his family:(

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, July 15, 2018 at 4:22:03 AM UTC-6, wrote:
> On Thursday, July 12, 2018 at 9:45:06 PM UTC+2, Jock Proudfoot wrote:
> > https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/new-
> > mexico/articles/2018-07-11/albuquerque-man-dies-in-glider-crash-
> > near-moriarty-airport
>
> >> He was so excited about his new V3.
>
> There's a hint. Not saying this is the cause for this accident, but it's sad to see how many people in the past have gotten into trouble for being too confident flying a new aircraft they haven't yet fully figured out. I know all of you who have been around aircraft for any significant amount of time know what I am talking about. Last time I saw this happen was in Mass., where a new pilot from the UK had never flown an aircraft with flaps and got them wrong on final. He ended up in a tree at the far end of the runway, thankfully with nothing but a bruised ego, but we never saw him again.

Was that guy flying a PIK-20B by any chance?

[[email protected]]

I honestly don't remember, this was some years ago. I left that club because I considered it to have the worst attitude towards safety I had ever seen.

On Friday, August 17, 2018 at 5:03:51 AM UTC+2, wrote:
>
> Was that guy flying a PIK-20B by any chance?

[Tango Eight]

On Friday, August 17, 2018 at 4:09:33 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> I honestly don't remember, this was some years ago. I left that club because I considered it to have the worst attitude towards safety I had ever seen.
>
> On Friday, August 17, 2018 at 5:03:51 AM UTC+2, wrote:
> >
> > Was that guy flying a PIK-20B by any chance?

https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/ReportGeneratorFile.ashx?EventID=20110619X44233&AKey=1&RType=Final&IType=CA

I've heard different versions of this event that vary in significant details. What the accounts agree on are that the pilot didn't seek instruction from a flap qualified instructor.

I don't think the PIK accident is relevant in any way to Renny's accident. Condolences to all... I didn't know Renny, but we did correspond a few times, he clearly knew what he was about.

T8

[[email protected]]

On Friday, August 17, 2018 at 2:37:06 PM UTC+2, Tango Eight wrote:
> > On Friday, August 17, 2018 at 5:03:51 AM UTC+2, wrote:
> > >
> > > Was that guy flying a PIK-20B by any chance?
>
> https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/ReportGeneratorFile.ashx?EventID=20110619X44233&AKey=1&RType=Final&IType=CA
>
> I've heard different versions of this event that vary in significant details. What the accounts agree on are that the pilot didn't seek instruction from a flap qualified instructor.
>
> I don't think the PIK accident is relevant in any way to Renny's accident. Condolences to all... I didn't know Renny, but we did correspond a few times, he clearly knew what he was about.
>
> T8

That was the accident alright. I was at the field when it happened. The pilot was from the UK, if I remember correctly. The club had plenty of instructors available, but no other flap-only glider, single or dual seat.

[[email protected]]

On Friday, August 17, 2018 at 6:58:37 AM UTC-6, wrote:
> On Friday, August 17, 2018 at 2:37:06 PM UTC+2, Tango Eight wrote:
> > > On Friday, August 17, 2018 at 5:03:51 AM UTC+2, wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Was that guy flying a PIK-20B by any chance?
> >
> > https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/ReportGeneratorFile.ashx?EventID=20110619X44233&AKey=1&RType=Final&IType=CA
> >
> > I've heard different versions of this event that vary in significant details. What the accounts agree on are that the pilot didn't seek instruction from a flap qualified instructor.
> >
> > I don't think the PIK accident is relevant in any way to Renny's accident. Condolences to all... I didn't know Renny, but we did correspond a few times, he clearly knew what he was about.
> >
> > T8
>
> That was the accident alright. I was at the field when it happened. The pilot was from the UK, if I remember correctly. The club had plenty of instructors available, but no other flap-only glider, single or dual seat.

I'm sure that over confidence was not an issue with Renny as he was conservative pilot and was not noted for pushing the envelope . Before he received his V3, he owned a Lak-17 which is a flapped ship in which he had a number of hours. Around Easter, Renny had an event wherein he had a loss of control turning base to final. He recovered with about two hundred feet or perhaps less, and landed short of runway 26 about a quarter mile of so east of the airport.
If any thing he became more cautious when flying the Ventus. On the day of his accident, he was heard on the radio noting that he was having a difficult time getting up and away from the airport. During that same time about four other pilots (my self included), had little if any difficulty getting away from the field. It should be remembered that there are times when one or more pilots after having been towed aloft, have difficulty connecting with that thermal which will get them on course. On the day in question, Renny announced more than once that he was less than successful in finding that thermal.
At this point we can only hope that the NTSB were able to extract enough information from his LX-9000 and his FLARM to determine what led up to his demise.

Bill Hill

[Ramy[_2_]]

The recent loss of control on base to final is by far the most telling evidence which the NTSB needs to look into. It’s not a coincidence.

Ramy

[[email protected]]

On Friday, August 17, 2018 at 7:57:17 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> On Friday, August 17, 2018 at 6:58:37 AM UTC-6, wrote:
> > On Friday, August 17, 2018 at 2:37:06 PM UTC+2, Tango Eight wrote:
> > > > On Friday, August 17, 2018 at 5:03:51 AM UTC+2, wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Was that guy flying a PIK-20B by any chance?
> > >
> > > https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/ReportGeneratorFile.ashx?EventID=20110619X44233&AKey=1&RType=Final&IType=CA
> > >
> > > I've heard different versions of this event that vary in significant details. What the accounts agree on are that the pilot didn't seek instruction from a flap qualified instructor.
> > >
> > > I don't think the PIK accident is relevant in any way to Renny's accident. Condolences to all... I didn't know Renny, but we did correspond a few times, he clearly knew what he was about.
> > >
> > > T8
> >
> > That was the accident alright. I was at the field when it happened. The pilot was from the UK, if I remember correctly. The club had plenty of instructors available, but no other flap-only glider, single or dual seat.
>
> I'm sure that over confidence was not an issue with Renny as he was conservative pilot and was not noted for pushing the envelope . Before he received his V3, he owned a Lak-17 which is a flapped ship in which he had a number of hours. Around Easter, Renny had an event wherein he had a loss of control turning base to final. He recovered with about two hundred feet or perhaps less, and landed short of runway 26 about a quarter mile of so east of the airport.
> If any thing he became more cautious when flying the Ventus. On the day of his accident, he was heard on the radio noting that he was having a difficult time getting up and away from the airport. During that same time about four other pilots (my self included), had little if any difficulty getting away from the field. It should be remembered that there are times when one or more pilots after having been towed aloft, have difficulty connecting with that thermal which will get them on course. On the day in question, Renny announced more than once that he was less than successful in finding that thermal.
> At this point we can only hope that the NTSB were able to extract enough information from his LX-9000 and his FLARM to determine what led up to his demise.
>
> Bill Hill

The toxicology report is in, and Renny's death was caused by blunt force trauma.

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, September 5, 2018 at 3:52:31 PM UTC+2, wrote:
>
> The toxicology report is in, and Renny's death was caused by blunt force trauma.

Otherwise known as "Hitting the ground at a high rate of speed." <sigh> Odds are it will remain a mystery. Sad. :(