Which ClearNav vario display?

[[email protected]]

Curious how CN users feel about the need for using both the 57mm round mechanical pointer and the LCD NavDisplay.

If you were starting a panel from scratch, would you use both the LCD NavDisplay and the 57 mm round LCD NavDisplay?

Thanks.

[[email protected]]

Not sure of the question, but if it's which ClearNav VARIO display to use (and not comparing the vario's LCD display with the big ClearNav navigation tablet device), I'd love to have both. The thermal assistant is marvelous, but only available on the LCD display. The ribbon indicator for the vario portion on that display doesn't work for me. Despite trying to retrain myself, I end up watching the needle of my old Winter next to it and listening to the CNv audio instead. So I'd rather have both, and I believe the vario will drive them simultaneously.

In fact, if someone wants to sell their mechanical pointer display, let me know privately: jnbearden AT aol DOT com or at the other address using Google Groups.

Chip Bearden

[[email protected]]

On Saturday, July 14, 2018 at 10:19:46 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> Curious how CN users feel about the need for using both the 57mm round mechanical pointer and the LCD NavDisplay.
>
> If you were starting a panel from scratch, would you use both the LCD NavDisplay and the 57 mm round LCD NavDisplay?
>
> Thanks.

Sorry -- s/b If you were starting a panel from scratch, would you use both the LCD NavDisplay and the 57 mm round mechanical pointer?

[JS[_5_]]

On Saturday, July 14, 2018 at 8:05:45 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Saturday, July 14, 2018 at 10:19:46 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > Curious how CN users feel about the need for using both the 57mm round mechanical pointer and the LCD NavDisplay.
> >
> > If you were starting a panel from scratch, would you use both the LCD NavDisplay and the 57 mm round LCD NavDisplay?
> >
> > Thanks.
>
> Sorry -- s/b If you were starting a panel from scratch, would you use both the LCD NavDisplay and the 57 mm round mechanical pointer?

Since the square E-Reader vario display came out, there is no need for the round one.
Jim

[Dan Daly[_2_]]

On Sunday, July 15, 2018 at 12:06:04 AM UTC-4, JS wrote:
> On Saturday, July 14, 2018 at 8:05:45 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > On Saturday, July 14, 2018 at 10:19:46 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > > Curious how CN users feel about the need for using both the 57mm round mechanical pointer and the LCD NavDisplay.
> > >
> > > If you were starting a panel from scratch, would you use both the LCD NavDisplay and the 57 mm round LCD NavDisplay?
> > >
> > > Thanks.
> >
> > Sorry -- s/b If you were starting a panel from scratch, would you use both the LCD NavDisplay and the 57 mm round mechanical pointer?
>
> Since the square E-Reader vario display came out, there is no need for the round one.
> Jim

I disagree with Jim, and agree with Chip. I end up listening to the audio, glancing at the TA screen which is great, and also at the needle on my S3 vario. The tape display on the digital display doesn't do it for me. I also wish for a mute switch, or knob to rapidly change the audio level on the CNv digital display, rather than through the menu.

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, July 15, 2018 at 6:35:24 AM UTC-4, Dan Daly wrote:
> On Sunday, July 15, 2018 at 12:06:04 AM UTC-4, JS wrote:
> > On Saturday, July 14, 2018 at 8:05:45 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > > On Saturday, July 14, 2018 at 10:19:46 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > > > Curious how CN users feel about the need for using both the 57mm round mechanical pointer and the LCD NavDisplay.
> > > >
> > > > If you were starting a panel from scratch, would you use both the LCD NavDisplay and the 57 mm round LCD NavDisplay?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks.
> > >
> > > Sorry -- s/b If you were starting a panel from scratch, would you use both the LCD NavDisplay and the 57 mm round mechanical pointer?
> >
> > Since the square E-Reader vario display came out, there is no need for the round one.
> > Jim
>
> I disagree with Jim, and agree with Chip. I end up listening to the audio, glancing at the TA screen which is great, and also at the needle on my S3 vario. The tape display on the digital display doesn't do it for me. I also wish for a mute switch, or knob to rapidly change the audio level on the CNv digital display, rather than through the menu.

I prefer to have the square display and use my Winter to get my needle movement info. In one ship I have both the round and square because I bought the square later and had panel room. My scan still prefers rotating needle and I get info better from 3-1/8 vario than the smaller.
FWIW
UH

[[email protected]]

Le samedi 14 juillet 2018 22:19:46 UTC-4, a écritÂ*:
> Curious how CN users feel about the need for using both the 57mm round mechanical pointer and the LCD NavDisplay.
>
> If you were starting a panel from scratch, would you use both the LCD NavDisplay and the 57 mm round LCD NavDisplay?
>
> Thanks.

I have the CNv x/c analog display. Do not like the digital display specialy the ribbon.
We need a 80 mm analog display and maybe we would get all the info promise way
back when we got the analog vario and not delivered now or never.
Otherwise great vario, connected to a Oudie the TA is very good much better than on it's own.
Gilles

[John Cochrane[_3_]]

I have both displays. The square display is much more readable, and includes the thermal assistant which is very very good. The only thing you want the round display for is a needle. The only reason for a needle is a quick glance at thermal strength as you are entering a thermal -- you have set the needle to relative netto while in cruise mode, so it answers "if I stop in this thermal what will its strength be?" That's it. For that purpose, it's a quicker read than the ribbon on the left of the square display. The audio is all you need for centering, and you should be looking outside anyway. The big fat number on the top right of the square display is where you look for thermal average for the stay/leave decision.

There may be a way to put the current relative netto on the numerical display in cruise. (I have pure netto there, with a long time constant). They you really wouldn't need the needle at all. Beep beep,,.. says 4 knots, it's a 4 knot thermal. You know there is lift, the question is, is this strong enough to stop, and a number is the way to answer this. The number may be moving around too fast to read though.. worth a try.

I disagree with UH. I would not want to look at a mechanical flow based needle. You want to look at a needle of the same vario feeding you audio, you want to look at relative netto not TE vario, and you don't want to mix a flow based system and pressure transducer system on the same line. Chuck the mechanical all together. I used to have a borgelt B40 backup -- self powered electric and pressure transducer, with audio. It's a lot better backup than a mechanical. Rex sold me on the idea of two separate CN varios so the round unit is a backup. This may reflect Rex's amazing salesmanship more than a practical idea.

Bottom line, if you only have room for one, choose the square display.

John Cochrane BB

[John Cochrane[_3_]]

On Sunday, July 15, 2018 at 6:52:20 AM UTC-7, John Cochrane wrote:
> I have both displays. The square display is much more readable, and includes the thermal assistant which is very very good. The only thing you want the round display for is a needle. The only reason for a needle is a quick glance at thermal strength as you are entering a thermal -- you have set the needle to relative netto while in cruise mode, so it answers "if I stop in this thermal what will its strength be?" That's it. For that purpose, it's a quicker read than the ribbon on the left of the square display. The audio is all you need for centering, and you should be looking outside anyway. The big fat number on the top right of the square display is where you look for thermal average for the stay/leave decision.
>
> There may be a way to put the current relative netto on the numerical display in cruise, and have a numerical display of the current TE vario in climb mode rather than the ribbon. (I have pure netto there, with a long time constant). They you really wouldn't need the needle at all. Beep beep,,.. says 4 knots, it's a 4 knot thermal. You know there is lift, the question is, is this strong enough to stop, and a number is the way to answer this. The number may be moving around too fast to read though.. worth a try.
>
> I disagree with UH. I would not want to look at a mechanical flow based needle. You want to look at a needle of the same vario feeding you audio, you want to look at relative netto not TE vario, and you don't want to mix a flow based system and pressure transducer system on the same line. Chuck the mechanical all together. I used to have a borgelt B40 backup -- self powered electric and pressure transducer, with audio. It's a lot better backup than a mechanical. Rex sold me on the idea of two separate CN varios so the round unit is a backup. This may reflect Rex's amazing salesmanship more than a practical idea.
>
> Bottom line, if you only have room for one, choose the square display.
>
> John Cochrane BB

[jfitch]

On Sunday, July 15, 2018 at 6:54:04 AM UTC-7, John Cochrane wrote:
> On Sunday, July 15, 2018 at 6:52:20 AM UTC-7, John Cochrane wrote:
> > I have both displays. The square display is much more readable, and includes the thermal assistant which is very very good. The only thing you want the round display for is a needle. The only reason for a needle is a quick glance at thermal strength as you are entering a thermal -- you have set the needle to relative netto while in cruise mode, so it answers "if I stop in this thermal what will its strength be?" That's it. For that purpose, it's a quicker read than the ribbon on the left of the square display. The audio is all you need for centering, and you should be looking outside anyway. The big fat number on the top right of the square display is where you look for thermal average for the stay/leave decision.
> >
> > There may be a way to put the current relative netto on the numerical display in cruise, and have a numerical display of the current TE vario in climb mode rather than the ribbon. (I have pure netto there, with a long time constant). They you really wouldn't need the needle at all. Beep beep,,.. says 4 knots, it's a 4 knot thermal. You know there is lift, the question is, is this strong enough to stop, and a number is the way to answer this. The number may be moving around too fast to read though.. worth a try.
> >
> > I disagree with UH. I would not want to look at a mechanical flow based needle. You want to look at a needle of the same vario feeding you audio, you want to look at relative netto not TE vario, and you don't want to mix a flow based system and pressure transducer system on the same line. Chuck the mechanical all together. I used to have a borgelt B40 backup -- self powered electric and pressure transducer, with audio. It's a lot better backup than a mechanical. Rex sold me on the idea of two separate CN varios so the round unit is a backup. This may reflect Rex's amazing salesmanship more than a practical idea.
> >
> > Bottom line, if you only have room for one, choose the square display.
> >
> > John Cochrane BB

Isn't that what the pop up on the square display tells you? How fast I might climb in this thermal? That is one of the more useful features of the square display, or the CNv as a whole. (You may have to enable that feature, not sure if it is default).

[Dan Marotta]

I use both.Â* I prefer the mechanical needle as a lift/sink indicator vs
the sliding scale on the left side of the digital display.Â* I also LOVE
the thermal helper
<https://www.dropbox.com/s/pfrag9t3fr8kapp/Colorado%20Thermal.jpg?dl=0>
on the digital display.

On 7/14/2018 8:19 PM, wrote:
> Curious how CN users feel about the need for using both the 57mm round mechanical pointer and the LCD NavDisplay.
>
> If you were starting a panel from scratch, would you use both the LCD NavDisplay and the 57 mm round LCD NavDisplay?
>
> Thanks.

--
Dan, 5J

[Dan Marotta]

Yes, the ADC drives both CNv displays simultaneously.

On 7/14/2018 8:30 PM, wrote:
> Not sure of the question, but if it's which ClearNav VARIO display to use (and not comparing the vario's LCD display with the big ClearNav navigation tablet device), I'd love to have both. The thermal assistant is marvelous, but only available on the LCD display. The ribbon indicator for the vario portion on that display doesn't work for me. Despite trying to retrain myself, I end up watching the needle of my old Winter next to it and listening to the CNv audio instead. So I'd rather have both, and I believe the vario will drive them simultaneously.
>
> In fact, if someone wants to sell their mechanical pointer display, let me know privately: jnbearden AT aol DOT com or at the other address using Google Groups.
>
> Chip Bearden

--
Dan, 5J

[[email protected]]

A circular needle tells you how strong the lift is (I used to have a pure netto vario in another glider and liked that a lot; a quick 2 kts offset gave me relative netto). But it also gives you acceleration: how fast lift strength is increasing/decreasing. The CNv ribbon changes the scale and the needle simultaneously, making it less intuitive and slower to understand what you want to know at a glance. I suspect the designers will say, well, the instrument is so responsive and smooth and immune to transients that all you need is the number it's pointing at. I don't agree.

I LOVE my CNv but unlike the CAI LNAV (in the appearance of the inputs of which it superficially resembles) the UI leaves a lot to be desired, whether menus, information architecture, inputs, navigating the device, or readouts. The exceptions are the numeric readouts on the main screen (quite good and comprehensive) and the thermal assistant (marvelous!). And the audio is also very good. I've honestly never tried to use the navigation functions because finding and using anything else in the device is frustrating for me. I've memorized the few button pushes I need because, IMO (and experience), the UI is not very intuitive and the chance of accidentally changing a setting is too great.

To repeat: I would hate to give up my CNv. It gives me much better information about the thermal than anything else. But I'd love to redesign the user interface. :) The designers may have wanted to avoid the CAI approach of a digital control unit and separate analog readout. But the resulting package leaves something to be desired for me.

Ironically, while I worried the 2 1/4" size would be a problem for this aging pilot, it's perfectly fine.

Chip Bearden

[[email protected]]

On Saturday, July 14, 2018 at 7:19:46 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> Curious how CN users feel about the need for using both the 57mm round mechanical pointer and the LCD NavDisplay.
>
> If you were starting a panel from scratch, would you use both the LCD NavDisplay and the 57 mm round LCD NavDisplay?
>
> Thanks.

I have both. I really like the TA and the Preempt Climb Option on the digital display. As the vario read out isn't on a fixed scale a glance doesn't tell the story because you have to figure out where you are on the scale. A fixed scale would be better even with the small size.
As an aside I'm not so sure of the winds from the CN. Vario matches the CNII. I'd like two opinions.

Steve

[OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net]

I have the full CN2 display and the square LCD CN vario. I originally had the round CN Vario. Reason to get the LCD CN vario? I wanted the thermal assistant! The thermal assistant 3D view is great stuff (not that I seem to stay up dramatically longer). HOWEVER, cost can be an issue. I assume it is still the case that you have to pay an extra $600(!) for the XC license just to get the thermal assistant. This is over and above the vario's base price of $1950. I get that the XC license adds navigation/task functionality plus IGC certification. But I don't need those as I have the full CN2 display plus a Nano 3 as back up. To me $600 seems a bit pricey just to get the thermal assistant. My $0.02. Thanks John OHM Ω

PS - Rex - Any update on new CN2 software? Thanks.

[2G]

On Sunday, July 15, 2018 at 7:21:12 PM UTC-7, OHM Ω http://aviation..derosaweb.net wrote:
> I have the full CN2 display and the square LCD CN vario. I originally had the round CN Vario. Reason to get the LCD CN vario? I wanted the thermal assistant! The thermal assistant 3D view is great stuff (not that I seem to stay up dramatically longer). HOWEVER, cost can be an issue. I assume it is still the case that you have to pay an extra $600(!) for the XC license just to get the thermal assistant. This is over and above the vario's base price of $1950. I get that the XC license adds navigation/task functionality plus IGC certification. But I don't need those as I have the full CN2 display plus a Nano 3 as back up. To me $600 seems a bit pricey just to get the thermal assistant. My $0.02. Thanks John OHM Ω
>
> PS - Rex - Any update on new CN2 software? Thanks.

There is a practical reason for having both: if the main LCD fails you have a working backup (please spare me the probability that the LCD will fail).

Tom

[SF]

I fly with both displays, I feel that each one does a better job of communicating certain information than the other display. If you can only fit in one, use the square display. The user interface is different, but after a little practice, they work just fine. The Thermal Assistant Screen helps if you get distracted in the thermal, and need to make an adjustment. The vario itself is fantastic.

SF

[Dan Marotta]

I started by replacing my CAI-302 with the analog CnV XC vario.Â* At the
time, ClearNav was offering a 25% trade-in allowance for the 302.Â* I was
very happy with that deal and the XC vario worked great with my
Streak/XCSoar.Â* After I got the Stemme (I kept the XC vario and Streak),
I moved the Streak to the right side, added a CN2 glide
computer/display, and magically hooked them all up together.Â* Oh,
yeah...Â* Then I added a CN digital display to the vario.Â* I'm very happy
with the whole shebang.

On 7/15/2018 8:21 PM, OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net wrote:
> I have the full CN2 display and the square LCD CN vario. I originally had the round CN Vario. Reason to get the LCD CN vario? I wanted the thermal assistant! The thermal assistant 3D view is great stuff (not that I seem to stay up dramatically longer). HOWEVER, cost can be an issue. I assume it is still the case that you have to pay an extra $600(!) for the XC license just to get the thermal assistant. This is over and above the vario's base price of $1950. I get that the XC license adds navigation/task functionality plus IGC certification. But I don't need those as I have the full CN2 display plus a Nano 3 as back up. To me $600 seems a bit pricey just to get the thermal assistant. My $0.02. Thanks John OHM Ω
>
> PS - Rex - Any update on new CN2 software? Thanks.
>

--
Dan, 5J

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, July 15, 2018 at 10:21:12 PM UTC-4, OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net wrote:
> I assume it is still the case that you have to pay an extra $600(!) for the XC license just to get the thermal assistant. This is over and above the vario's base price of $1950.

This didn't sound right so I checked the ClearNav site. The $1950 gets you the XC (full, including the thermal assistant and IGC logger) version with the square LCD display. I don't see the less expensive Club version in the price list, however, although it's still described in detail on the product pages.

Also what's NOT on the site anymore is the older round analog display. I'd heard a rumor that CN was going to discontinue this display. Can anyone comment?

Chip Bearden

[OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net]

On Monday, July 16, 2018 at 11:06:14 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> On Sunday, July 15, 2018 at 10:21:12 PM UTC-4, OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net wrote:
> > I assume it is still the case that you have to pay an extra $600(!) for the XC license just to get the thermal assistant. This is over and above the vario's base price of $1950.
>
> This didn't sound right so I checked the ClearNav site. The $1950 gets you the XC (full, including the thermal assistant and IGC logger) version with the square LCD display. I don't see the less expensive Club version in the price list, however, although it's still described in detail on the product pages.
>
> Also what's NOT on the site anymore is the older round analog display. I'd heard a rumor that CN was going to discontinue this display. Can anyone comment?
>
> Chip Bearden

Chip - You are correct. My bad. Thanks for the correction.

The $1950 is for whole she-bang - the LCD display, the behind the panel ADC board *AND* the XC license needed for the thermal assistant (with navigation and IGC logger). As mine was an upgrade only I ordered the LCD display ($550) and then separately the XC license ($600).

So let's circle back on the cost breakdown;

> I paid $550+$600=$1150 for the LCD and XC License
> That is 75% of the cost of a whole new setup ($1550 for LCD+ADC+XC License)! Still seems high to me.
> What I should have done is bought the whole new setup then sold my old complete-but-used "analog" CNv + ADC board (w/o XC license) setup for $???? to help recoup costs*.

Shoulda, coulda, woulda. Opportunity lost. Dang.

Thanks, John OHM Ω

* It is possible that the XC license was NOT included in the $1550 at the time that I purchased my upgrade (late 2016). I see on the Cumulus web site at the very bottom of the list of features of the whole LCD CNv setup (CNi-0669); "Upgradeable at any time to CNv Cross Country version. You can purchase an upgrade that is tied to the serial number of the unit to upgrade it to a CNv Cross Country." That statement seems superfluous if the XC license is already included. Right? Expiring minds want to know.

- John