View Full Version : Dream Panel
As you may already know, I am ordering a new ASH31Mi. I am in the process of coming up with the panel layout and instrument selection. I would love to here from other pilots what they consider to be their dream panel (cost is not an issue).
Tom
Roy B.
July 18th 18, 03:19 AM
LX9070 computer with Remote stick, Wifi & AHRS options, KRT2 radio,Trig transponder (w/ADS-B out), 57mm Winter mechanical vario, ASI & altimeter, PowerFlarm feeding Flarmview 2. Solar panel with switching between separate LIpo batteries and ability to run any instrument on either battery and/or charge either battery. Switched gear warn system. Circuit breakers (not fuses).
Total Cost about $12,000 USD
ROY
Roy B.
July 18th 18, 03:36 AM
LX9070 computer with V9 vario, Remote stick, Wifi & AHRS options, KRT2 radio,Trig transponder (w/ADS-B out), 57mm Winter mechanical vario, ASI & altimeter, PowerFlarm feeding Flarmview 2. Solar panel with switching between separate LIpo batteries and ability to run any instrument on either battery and/or charge either battery. Switched gear warn system. Circuit breakers (not fuses), simple compass.
Total Cost about $14,000 USD
ROY
jfitch
July 18th 18, 05:14 AM
Whatever you choose (largely personal preference) I'd recommend you have Rex install and wire the panel, rather than the factory. Or do it yourself.
On Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 7:36:26 PM UTC-7, Roy B. wrote:
> LX9070 computer with V9 vario, Remote stick, Wifi & AHRS options, KRT2 radio,Trig transponder (w/ADS-B out), 57mm Winter mechanical vario, ASI & altimeter, PowerFlarm feeding Flarmview 2. Solar panel with switching between separate LIpo batteries and ability to run any instrument on either battery and/or charge either battery. Switched gear warn system. Circuit breakers (not fuses), simple compass.
> Total Cost about $14,000 USD
> ROY
Sounds good, except I would go with the Air Avionics ACD (Air Control Display), paired with the KRT2 and VT-01 Mode S transponder (saves 1 panel cutout). And I would add the Garmin GDL 82 ADS-B. I would also use the Air Avionics altimeter (it's awesome!).
Schleicher has a thing about circuit breakers (?!).
Tom
jfitch
July 18th 18, 06:18 AM
On Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 9:36:53 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 7:36:26 PM UTC-7, Roy B. wrote:
> > LX9070 computer with V9 vario, Remote stick, Wifi & AHRS options, KRT2 radio,Trig transponder (w/ADS-B out), 57mm Winter mechanical vario, ASI & altimeter, PowerFlarm feeding Flarmview 2. Solar panel with switching between separate LIpo batteries and ability to run any instrument on either battery and/or charge either battery. Switched gear warn system. Circuit breakers (not fuses), simple compass.
> > Total Cost about $14,000 USD
> > ROY
>
> Sounds good, except I would go with the Air Avionics ACD (Air Control Display), paired with the KRT2 and VT-01 Mode S transponder (saves 1 panel cutout). And I would add the Garmin GDL 82 ADS-B. I would also use the Air Avionics altimeter (it's awesome!).
>
> Schleicher has a thing about circuit breakers (?!).
>
> Tom
The Air Avionics ACD is awesome, but has some limitations when used with the KRT2. It will also control a Becker. When you use the ACD-57 as a two or three purpose head, it saves panel cutouts, but you loose some display information as the display is shared. I'd probably do two, one for radio, another for altimeter and xponder control. I'm not certain the VT-01 Mode S is as yet legal in the US as an ADS-B vehicle. Sadly Trig will not let the ACD control their xpdnr.
krasw
July 18th 18, 08:32 AM
Air Glide S for inertial vario and wind
Biggest LX90x0 you can fit into panel
Powerflarm
AIR ACD altimeter (for transponder and radio)
AIR Traffic display for flarm alerts
Winter 80mm ASI, not the small one
Chris Rowland[_2_]
July 18th 18, 10:43 AM
At 07:32 18 July 2018, krasw wrote:
>Air Glide S for inertial vario and wind
>Biggest LX90x0 you can fit into panel
>Powerflarm
>AIR ACD altimeter (for transponder and radio)
>AIR Traffic display for flarm alerts
>Winter 80mm ASI, not the small one
>
I'd look for a radio that has a double knob for setting the frequency,
outer for MHz, inner for KHz. This will be a lot easier to use than the
ones that involve a single knob and a button to change the digit to set.
There is one of the modern small radios like this, Trig maybe.
Chris
On Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 6:02:53 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> As you may already know, I am ordering a new ASH31Mi. I am in the process of coming up with the panel layout and instrument selection. I would love to here from other pilots what they consider to be their dream panel (cost is not an issue).
> Tom
Does nobody want an adsb-in receiver and traffic display?
Roy B.
July 18th 18, 12:51 PM
Does nobody want an adsb-in receiver and traffic display?
Space is limited and Flarmview 2 does much of traffic display.
Roy
Warning related to the comment below. The VT-01 is NOT capable of either SIL-1 or SIL-3 ADSB Out so for USA this is not going to be a solution if you want ADSB out.
“..Sounds good, except I would go with the Air Avionics ACD (Air Control Display), paired with the KRT2 and VT-01 Mode S transponder (saves 1 panel cutout)...”
On Wednesday, July 18, 2018 at 1:30:31 PM UTC+1, wrote:
> Warning related to the comment below. The VT-01 is NOT capable of either SIL-1 or SIL-3 ADSB Out so for USA this is not going to be a solution if you want ADSB out.
>
>
> “..Sounds good, except I would go with the Air Avionics ACD (Air Control Display), paired with the KRT2 and VT-01 Mode S transponder (saves 1 panel cutout)...”
I'd want a Trig transponder (not compatible with the Air Avionics ADC) + TN72 and not KRT2 radio again so to save one panel hole I would use an Air Avionic ADC Altimeter and pair it with a Becker radio. Otherwise, 9070 Power Flarm version + V8, compass (obligatory for motorised glider), Borgelt B40 back-up vario, Winter mini ASI (I don't care that they are less accurate than 80mm). Not sure whether I'd fit a separate Flarm display as currently I display all Flarm info on the LX9000 main display and it works fine
On Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 6:02:53 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> As you may already know, I am ordering a new ASH31Mi. I am in the process of coming up with the panel layout and instrument selection. I would love to here from other pilots what they consider to be their dream panel (cost is not an issue).
> Tom
Personally I'd want a dedicated traffic display to avoid cluttering up my moving map, and I'd choose adsb-in traffic, not flarm. I've never been able to find out if flarm displays can display adsb-traffic.
About a compass requirement: 91.205 does list required instruments for powered civil aircraft, but there are no requirements (other than whatever the POH requires) for gliders, and motorgliders are gliders.
jfitch
July 18th 18, 04:07 PM
On Wednesday, July 18, 2018 at 7:39:54 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 6:02:53 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > As you may already know, I am ordering a new ASH31Mi. I am in the process of coming up with the panel layout and instrument selection. I would love to here from other pilots what they consider to be their dream panel (cost is not an issue).
> > Tom
>
> Personally I'd want a dedicated traffic display to avoid cluttering up my moving map, and I'd choose adsb-in traffic, not flarm. I've never been able to find out if flarm displays can display adsb-traffic.
>
> About a compass requirement: 91.205 does list required instruments for powered civil aircraft, but there are no requirements (other than whatever the POH requires) for gliders, and motorgliders are gliders.
Powerflarm absolutely outputs ADSB 1090ES contacts. Whether your display shows them is up to it. Mine does. It does NOT display the funky USA only UAT contacts (unless they are rebroadcast as 1090ES).
The radio interface provided by the ACD-57 is superb, much better than either the Becker or the TQ which it controls remotely. And much better than a Trig. You really want the Air Avionics COM radio, if only they could get it shipping. It will have one feature none of the others do: the Say Again function.
On Wednesday, July 18, 2018 at 8:07:37 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 18, 2018 at 7:39:54 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> > On Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 6:02:53 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > > As you may already know, I am ordering a new ASH31Mi. I am in the process of coming up with the panel layout and instrument selection. I would love to here from other pilots what they consider to be their dream panel (cost is not an issue).
> > > Tom
> >
> > Personally I'd want a dedicated traffic display to avoid cluttering up my moving map, and I'd choose adsb-in traffic, not flarm. I've never been able to find out if flarm displays can display adsb-traffic.
> >
> > About a compass requirement: 91.205 does list required instruments for powered civil aircraft, but there are no requirements (other than whatever the POH requires) for gliders, and motorgliders are gliders.
>
> Powerflarm absolutely outputs ADSB 1090ES contacts. Whether your display shows them is up to it. Mine does. It does NOT display the funky USA only UAT contacts (unless they are rebroadcast as 1090ES).
>
> The radio interface provided by the ACD-57 is superb, much better than either the Becker or the TQ which it controls remotely. And much better than a Trig. You really want the Air Avionics COM radio, if only they could get it shipping. It will have one feature none of the others do: the Say Again function.
Air Avionics has really dropped the ball on getting their radio certified. It will not be available this year, making it unlikely I could get it in time to use it in my 31Mi.
https://www.air-avionics.com/?page_id=1204
Tom
Richard Pfiffner[_2_]
July 18th 18, 06:46 PM
On Wednesday, July 18, 2018 at 9:31:30 AM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 18, 2018 at 8:07:37 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> > On Wednesday, July 18, 2018 at 7:39:54 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 6:02:53 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > > > As you may already know, I am ordering a new ASH31Mi. I am in the process of coming up with the panel layout and instrument selection. I would love to here from other pilots what they consider to be their dream panel (cost is not an issue).
> > > > Tom
> > >
> > > Personally I'd want a dedicated traffic display to avoid cluttering up my moving map, and I'd choose adsb-in traffic, not flarm. I've never been able to find out if flarm displays can display adsb-traffic.
> > >
> > > About a compass requirement: 91.205 does list required instruments for powered civil aircraft, but there are no requirements (other than whatever the POH requires) for gliders, and motorgliders are gliders.
> >
> > Powerflarm absolutely outputs ADSB 1090ES contacts. Whether your display shows them is up to it. Mine does. It does NOT display the funky USA only UAT contacts (unless they are rebroadcast as 1090ES).
> >
> > The radio interface provided by the ACD-57 is superb, much better than either the Becker or the TQ which it controls remotely. And much better than a Trig. You really want the Air Avionics COM radio, if only they could get it shipping. It will have one feature none of the others do: the Say Again function.
>
> Air Avionics has really dropped the ball on getting their radio certified.. It will not be available this year, making it unlikely I could get it in time to use it in my 31Mi.
> https://www.air-avionics.com/?page_id=1204
> Tom
Tom,
http://www.craggyaero.com/Drawings/ASH31Panel.JPG
This is a picture of one of my Customers Panels. The only thing I would change is replace the Winter Altimeter with an Air-Avionis Air Control Display Altimeter.
Richard
www.craggyaero.com
Richard Pfiffner[_2_]
July 18th 18, 06:54 PM
On Wednesday, July 18, 2018 at 9:31:30 AM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 18, 2018 at 8:07:37 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> > On Wednesday, July 18, 2018 at 7:39:54 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 6:02:53 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > > > As you may already know, I am ordering a new ASH31Mi. I am in the process of coming up with the panel layout and instrument selection. I would love to here from other pilots what they consider to be their dream panel (cost is not an issue).
> > > > Tom
> > >
> > > Personally I'd want a dedicated traffic display to avoid cluttering up my moving map, and I'd choose adsb-in traffic, not flarm. I've never been able to find out if flarm displays can display adsb-traffic.
> > >
> > > About a compass requirement: 91.205 does list required instruments for powered civil aircraft, but there are no requirements (other than whatever the POH requires) for gliders, and motorgliders are gliders.
> >
> > Powerflarm absolutely outputs ADSB 1090ES contacts. Whether your display shows them is up to it. Mine does. It does NOT display the funky USA only UAT contacts (unless they are rebroadcast as 1090ES).
> >
> > The radio interface provided by the ACD-57 is superb, much better than either the Becker or the TQ which it controls remotely. And much better than a Trig. You really want the Air Avionics COM radio, if only they could get it shipping. It will have one feature none of the others do: the Say Again function.
>
> Air Avionics has really dropped the ball on getting their radio certified.. It will not be available this year, making it unlikely I could get it in time to use it in my 31Mi.
> https://www.air-avionics.com/?page_id=1204
> Tom
The Problems that Air-Avionics has with the Air-Control Display are:
The Largest court or field or market is in Europe.
Trig TT22 Mode S, TN72 ADS-B, TY91 Transceiver the most popular for Sailplanes in the US as yet will not cooperate.
Becker Transponders do not have ADS-b compliance in the USA
Garrecht Transponder do not have ADS-B compliance in the USA
Richard
www.craggyaero.com
On Wednesday, July 18, 2018 at 3:39:54 PM UTC+1, wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 6:02:53 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > As you may already know, I am ordering a new ASH31Mi. I am in the process of coming up with the panel layout and instrument selection. I would love to here from other pilots what they consider to be their dream panel (cost is not an issue).
> > Tom
>
> Personally I'd want a dedicated traffic display to avoid cluttering up my moving map, and I'd choose adsb-in traffic, not flarm. I've never been able to find out if flarm displays can display adsb-traffic.
>
> About a compass requirement: 91.205 does list required instruments for powered civil aircraft, but there are no requirements (other than whatever the POH requires) for gliders, and motorgliders are gliders.
Compasses are part of the minimum mandatory equipment lists for German built and JS engine-equipped gliders and are required for them (unnecessarily IMHO) in EASA land where I live. Not so for pure gliders.
On Wednesday, July 18, 2018 at 11:06:43 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 18, 2018 at 3:39:54 PM UTC+1, wrote:
> > On Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 6:02:53 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > > As you may already know, I am ordering a new ASH31Mi. I am in the process of coming up with the panel layout and instrument selection. I would love to here from other pilots what they consider to be their dream panel (cost is not an issue).
> > > Tom
> >
> > Personally I'd want a dedicated traffic display to avoid cluttering up my moving map, and I'd choose adsb-in traffic, not flarm. I've never been able to find out if flarm displays can display adsb-traffic.
> >
> > About a compass requirement: 91.205 does list required instruments for powered civil aircraft, but there are no requirements (other than whatever the POH requires) for gliders, and motorgliders are gliders.
>
> Compasses are part of the minimum mandatory equipment lists for German built and JS engine-equipped gliders and are required for them (unnecessarily IMHO) in EASA land where I live. Not so for pure gliders.
The turning/acceleration errors in mechanical compasses drive me crazy in gliders, but I've found the electronic compass sold by LXNAV with their 9000 systems is great. I also find their electronic altimeter is much more accurate than a small Winter altimeter. So there are two panel holes to be saved, if you are experimental.
On Wednesday, July 18, 2018 at 10:46:29 AM UTC-7, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 18, 2018 at 9:31:30 AM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > On Wednesday, July 18, 2018 at 8:07:37 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, July 18, 2018 at 7:39:54 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 6:02:53 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > > > > As you may already know, I am ordering a new ASH31Mi. I am in the process of coming up with the panel layout and instrument selection. I would love to here from other pilots what they consider to be their dream panel (cost is not an issue).
> > > > > Tom
> > > >
> > > > Personally I'd want a dedicated traffic display to avoid cluttering up my moving map, and I'd choose adsb-in traffic, not flarm. I've never been able to find out if flarm displays can display adsb-traffic.
> > > >
> > > > About a compass requirement: 91.205 does list required instruments for powered civil aircraft, but there are no requirements (other than whatever the POH requires) for gliders, and motorgliders are gliders.
> > >
> > > Powerflarm absolutely outputs ADSB 1090ES contacts. Whether your display shows them is up to it. Mine does. It does NOT display the funky USA only UAT contacts (unless they are rebroadcast as 1090ES).
> > >
> > > The radio interface provided by the ACD-57 is superb, much better than either the Becker or the TQ which it controls remotely. And much better than a Trig. You really want the Air Avionics COM radio, if only they could get it shipping. It will have one feature none of the others do: the Say Again function.
> >
> > Air Avionics has really dropped the ball on getting their radio certified. It will not be available this year, making it unlikely I could get it in time to use it in my 31Mi.
> > https://www.air-avionics.com/?page_id=1204
> > Tom
>
> Tom,
>
> http://www.craggyaero.com/Drawings/ASH31Panel.JPG
>
>
> This is a picture of one of my Customers Panels. The only thing I would change is replace the Winter Altimeter with an Air-Avionis Air Control Display Altimeter.
>
> Richard
> www.craggyaero.com
What glider is this in? Is it the extra-height panel.
Tom
Richard Pfiffner[_2_]
July 19th 18, 06:32 AM
On Wednesday, July 18, 2018 at 7:41:17 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 18, 2018 at 10:46:29 AM UTC-7, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> > On Wednesday, July 18, 2018 at 9:31:30 AM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, July 18, 2018 at 8:07:37 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, July 18, 2018 at 7:39:54 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> > > > > On Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 6:02:53 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > > > > > As you may already know, I am ordering a new ASH31Mi. I am in the process of coming up with the panel layout and instrument selection. I would love to here from other pilots what they consider to be their dream panel (cost is not an issue).
> > > > > > Tom
> > > > >
> > > > > Personally I'd want a dedicated traffic display to avoid cluttering up my moving map, and I'd choose adsb-in traffic, not flarm. I've never been able to find out if flarm displays can display adsb-traffic.
> > > > >
> > > > > About a compass requirement: 91.205 does list required instruments for powered civil aircraft, but there are no requirements (other than whatever the POH requires) for gliders, and motorgliders are gliders.
> > > >
> > > > Powerflarm absolutely outputs ADSB 1090ES contacts. Whether your display shows them is up to it. Mine does. It does NOT display the funky USA only UAT contacts (unless they are rebroadcast as 1090ES).
> > > >
> > > > The radio interface provided by the ACD-57 is superb, much better than either the Becker or the TQ which it controls remotely. And much better than a Trig. You really want the Air Avionics COM radio, if only they could get it shipping. It will have one feature none of the others do: the Say Again function.
> > >
> > > Air Avionics has really dropped the ball on getting their radio certified. It will not be available this year, making it unlikely I could get it in time to use it in my 31Mi.
> > > https://www.air-avionics.com/?page_id=1204
> > > Tom
> >
> > Tom,
> >
> > http://www.craggyaero.com/Drawings/ASH31Panel.JPG
> >
> >
> > This is a picture of one of my Customers Panels. The only thing I would change is replace the Winter Altimeter with an Air-Avionis Air Control Display Altimeter.
> >
> > Richard
> > www.craggyaero.com
>
> What glider is this in? Is it the extra-height panel.
>
> Tom
ASH31Mi large panel,
Richard
www.craggyaero.com
Richard Pfiffner[_2_]
July 19th 18, 04:27 PM
On Wednesday, July 18, 2018 at 10:32:25 PM UTC-7, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 18, 2018 at 7:41:17 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > On Wednesday, July 18, 2018 at 10:46:29 AM UTC-7, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, July 18, 2018 at 9:31:30 AM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, July 18, 2018 at 8:07:37 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> > > > > On Wednesday, July 18, 2018 at 7:39:54 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> > > > > > On Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 6:02:53 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > > > > > > As you may already know, I am ordering a new ASH31Mi. I am in the process of coming up with the panel layout and instrument selection. I would love to here from other pilots what they consider to be their dream panel (cost is not an issue).
> > > > > > > Tom
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Personally I'd want a dedicated traffic display to avoid cluttering up my moving map, and I'd choose adsb-in traffic, not flarm. I've never been able to find out if flarm displays can display adsb-traffic.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > About a compass requirement: 91.205 does list required instruments for powered civil aircraft, but there are no requirements (other than whatever the POH requires) for gliders, and motorgliders are gliders.
> > > > >
> > > > > Powerflarm absolutely outputs ADSB 1090ES contacts. Whether your display shows them is up to it. Mine does. It does NOT display the funky USA only UAT contacts (unless they are rebroadcast as 1090ES).
> > > > >
> > > > > The radio interface provided by the ACD-57 is superb, much better than either the Becker or the TQ which it controls remotely. And much better than a Trig. You really want the Air Avionics COM radio, if only they could get it shipping. It will have one feature none of the others do: the Say Again function.
> > > >
> > > > Air Avionics has really dropped the ball on getting their radio certified. It will not be available this year, making it unlikely I could get it in time to use it in my 31Mi.
> > > > https://www.air-avionics.com/?page_id=1204
> > > > Tom
> > >
> > > Tom,
> > >
> > > http://www.craggyaero.com/Drawings/ASH31Panel.JPG
> > >
> > >
> > > This is a picture of one of my Customers Panels. The only thing I would change is replace the Winter Altimeter with an Air-Avionis Air Control Display Altimeter.
> > >
> > > Richard
> > > www.craggyaero.com
> >
> > What glider is this in? Is it the extra-height panel.
> >
> > Tom
>
> ASH31Mi large panel,
>
> Richard
> www.craggyaero.com
Woops the Panel is the small panel on the ASH31 Mi.
http://www.craggyaero.com/Drawings/ASH31Panel.JPG
Richard
www.craggyaero.com
Dream panel -- a very expensive assembly of compromises.
Switches, fuses, and any ancillary that can grab your “eye attention” should not be visible or “colored” identified so they do not reflect. Conventional 57mm altimeter replaced with Air Avionics ADC which also effectively controls the Becker RT6201 remote transceiver. Conventional compasses are worthless and do not deserve a full time dedicated panel hole. Panel mount one for annuals and then take it out as soon as you are out of site. (Sorry Mr. FAA, I just took out my Airpath compass because the seals are bad and the fluid leaked out.)
Airspeed and Air Glide S (primary vario) over ClearNav II, Middle CNvS XC, Air AVIONICS ADT driven by PowerFLARM core (Airpath compass for annuals), third row motor controls, ILEC engine unit, LXNAV S10, Air AVIONICS ADC, TXPDR below ClearNav II (if ADS-B then Trig TT-22 and if not Garrecht VT-01 remote controlled by Air AVIONICS ADC. For contest days, Naviter Oudie 2 on canopy driven by LXNAV S10. Glass instrument fuses on “custom” power buss behind panel. No solar.
You will not be happy with factory Schleicher wiring – get Rex to wire it and then if you have a problem he knows your rig. Make sure it is wired to eliminate Mi starting problems such as some of the 32Mi’s have experienced.
Dream on.
George Haeh
July 19th 18, 08:26 PM
This is the one time it's easy to put antennas in the fin and route properly sized coax to them (may be worthwhile engaging a microwave engineer).
Schleicher puts the Com antenna in the back of the fin. Think where the transponder and Flarm antennas can go - minimum 30 cm apart.
Air Avionics has announced their Air Traffic unit which can transmit Flarm on both antennas (very handy with carbon fiber fuselage - on the glareshield, there's a blind spot below; in the fin the tailplane makes another blind spot), but so far there's no documentation or word on North American licensing.
Access to the coax connectors might be nice.
On Thursday, July 19, 2018 at 2:52:47 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> Dream panel -- a very expensive assembly of compromises.
>
> Switches, fuses, and any ancillary that can grab your “eye attention” should not be visible or “colored” identified so they do not reflect. Conventional 57mm altimeter replaced with Air Avionics ADC which also effectively controls the Becker RT6201 remote transceiver. Conventional compasses are worthless and do not deserve a full time dedicated panel hole. Panel mount one for annuals and then take it out as soon as you are out of site. (Sorry Mr. FAA, I just took out my Airpath compass because the seals are bad and the fluid leaked out.)
>
> Airspeed and Air Glide S (primary vario) over ClearNav II, Middle CNvS XC, Air AVIONICS ADT driven by PowerFLARM core (Airpath compass for annuals), third row motor controls, ILEC engine unit, LXNAV S10, Air AVIONICS ADC, TXPDR below ClearNav II (if ADS-B then Trig TT-22 and if not Garrecht VT-01 remote controlled by Air AVIONICS ADC. For contest days, Naviter Oudie 2 on canopy driven by LXNAV S10. Glass instrument fuses on “custom” power buss behind panel. No solar.
>
> You will not be happy with factory Schleicher wiring – get Rex to wire it and then if you have a problem he knows your rig. Make sure it is wired to eliminate Mi starting problems such as some of the 32Mi’s have experienced.
>
> Dream on.
Also 2 ESA-System type UN probe mounting adapters in vertical fin so you can have separate probes. Preferred is Prandtl tube PR providing redundant pitot/static systems to power electronic TE compensation.
Ben Hirashima
July 19th 18, 09:55 PM
I'm also considering what to put in my next glider panel. I'd be interested to hear what people see as the pros and cons of different moving map glide computers. Just the high end ones that can be installed in-panel (not Oudie, etc). I currently use an LXNav 9050, but there are many things that could be improved. How do the Air Avionics Glide computers and ClearNavII compare to LXNav?
Le mardi 17 juillet 2018 21:02:53 UTC-4, 2G a écrit*:
> As you may already know, I am ordering a new ASH31Mi. I am in the process of coming up with the panel layout and instrument selection. I would love to here from other pilots what they consider to be their dream panel (cost is not an issue).
> Tom
Hi
So the dream panel include a lot of air avionic product.
Looking at the last 3 sailplane GP participant equipement it include mostly of LX Nav,a few LX Navigation and a few of all the other including Air glide product in their panel.
I wonder why?
Gilles
On Friday, July 20, 2018 at 5:00:41 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> Le mardi 17 juillet 2018 21:02:53 UTC-4, 2G a écrit*:
> > As you may already know, I am ordering a new ASH31Mi. I am in the process of coming up with the panel layout and instrument selection. I would love to here from other pilots what they consider to be their dream panel (cost is not an issue).
> > Tom
>
> Hi
> So the dream panel include a lot of air avionic product.
>
> Looking at the last 3 sailplane GP participant equipement it include mostly of LX Nav,a few LX Navigation and a few of all the other including Air glide product in their panel.
> I wonder why?
> Gilles
Yes, it seems that the bulk of innovation is coming out of two companies!
I am looking for a digital ASI and found this one from, guess who, LX NAV:
http://www.aeroexpo.online/prod/lx-navigation-doo/product-171396-3693.html
The only distributor listed for the US is Cumulus Soaring, but Paul does not carry this product. Does anyone have any experience with this ASI and knows where to buy it (Europe is ok)?
Tom
On Saturday, July 21, 2018 at 9:56:03 AM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
> On Friday, July 20, 2018 at 5:00:41 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> > Le mardi 17 juillet 2018 21:02:53 UTC-4, 2G a écrit*:
> > > As you may already know, I am ordering a new ASH31Mi. I am in the process of coming up with the panel layout and instrument selection. I would love to here from other pilots what they consider to be their dream panel (cost is not an issue).
> > > Tom
> >
> > Hi
> > So the dream panel include a lot of air avionic product.
> >
> > Looking at the last 3 sailplane GP participant equipement it include mostly of LX Nav,a few LX Navigation and a few of all the other including Air glide product in their panel.
> > I wonder why?
> > Gilles
>
> Yes, it seems that the bulk of innovation is coming out of two companies!
>
> I am looking for a digital ASI and found this one from, guess who, LX NAV:
> http://www.aeroexpo.online/prod/lx-navigation-doo/product-171396-3693.html
>
> The only distributor listed for the US is Cumulus Soaring, but Paul does not carry this product. Does anyone have any experience with this ASI and knows where to buy it (Europe is ok)?
>
> Tom
Tom, you should seriously look at the Garmin G5 to replace a slew of instruments:
http://www.chiefaircraft.com/gmn-010-01485-00.html?gclid=CjwKCAjws8vaBRBFEiwAQfhs-E9AUYFeBeaQASAv5AwGkj-YBBTU8D-8OWT_VaGCfJz8l8O09-x6YhoCo0MQAvD_BwE
Much cheaper than the others discussed and it includes an attitude indicator (plus ALT, ASI, Heading and vert. speed uncomp.). With a good backup battery, that thing would save you a lot of panel space.
Herb, J7
On Saturday, 21 July 2018 15:56:03 UTC+1, 2G wrote:
> On Friday, July 20, 2018 at 5:00:41 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> > Le mardi 17 juillet 2018 21:02:53 UTC-4, 2G a écrit*:
> > > As you may already know, I am ordering a new ASH31Mi. I am in the process of coming up with the panel layout and instrument selection. I would love to here from other pilots what they consider to be their dream panel (cost is not an issue).
> > > Tom
> >
> > Hi
> > So the dream panel include a lot of air avionic product.
> >
> > Looking at the last 3 sailplane GP participant equipement it include mostly of LX Nav,a few LX Navigation and a few of all the other including Air glide product in their panel.
> > I wonder why?
> > Gilles
>
> Yes, it seems that the bulk of innovation is coming out of two companies!
>
> I am looking for a digital ASI and found this one from, guess who, LX NAV:
> http://www.aeroexpo.online/prod/lx-navigation-doo/product-171396-3693.html
>
> The only distributor listed for the US is Cumulus Soaring, but Paul does not carry this product. Does anyone have any experience with this ASI and knows where to buy it (Europe is ok)?
>
> Tom
Its by LX Navigation not LX Nav
JS[_5_]
July 21st 18, 09:11 PM
On Saturday, July 21, 2018 at 11:46:33 AM UTC-7, wrote:
>
> Its by LX Navigation not LX Nav
Is that the People's Front Of Judea, or the Judean People's Front?
Jim
On Saturday, July 21, 2018 at 11:46:33 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Saturday, 21 July 2018 15:56:03 UTC+1, 2G wrote:
> > On Friday, July 20, 2018 at 5:00:41 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> > > Le mardi 17 juillet 2018 21:02:53 UTC-4, 2G a écrit*:
> > > > As you may already know, I am ordering a new ASH31Mi. I am in the process of coming up with the panel layout and instrument selection. I would love to here from other pilots what they consider to be their dream panel (cost is not an issue).
> > > > Tom
> > >
> > > Hi
> > > So the dream panel include a lot of air avionic product.
> > >
> > > Looking at the last 3 sailplane GP participant equipement it include mostly of LX Nav,a few LX Navigation and a few of all the other including Air glide product in their panel.
> > > I wonder why?
> > > Gilles
> >
> > Yes, it seems that the bulk of innovation is coming out of two companies!
> >
> > I am looking for a digital ASI and found this one from, guess who, LX NAV:
> > http://www.aeroexpo.online/prod/lx-navigation-doo/product-171396-3693.html
> >
> > The only distributor listed for the US is Cumulus Soaring, but Paul does not carry this product. Does anyone have any experience with this ASI and knows where to buy it (Europe is ok)?
> >
> > Tom
>
> Its by LX Navigation not LX Nav
I don't particularly care who it's by, where do I BUY it?
Tom
On Saturday, July 21, 2018 at 9:39:17 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Saturday, July 21, 2018 at 9:56:03 AM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
> > On Friday, July 20, 2018 at 5:00:41 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> > > Le mardi 17 juillet 2018 21:02:53 UTC-4, 2G a écrit*:
> > > > As you may already know, I am ordering a new ASH31Mi. I am in the process of coming up with the panel layout and instrument selection. I would love to here from other pilots what they consider to be their dream panel (cost is not an issue).
> > > > Tom
> > >
> > > Hi
> > > So the dream panel include a lot of air avionic product.
> > >
> > > Looking at the last 3 sailplane GP participant equipement it include mostly of LX Nav,a few LX Navigation and a few of all the other including Air glide product in their panel.
> > > I wonder why?
> > > Gilles
> >
> > Yes, it seems that the bulk of innovation is coming out of two companies!
> >
> > I am looking for a digital ASI and found this one from, guess who, LX NAV:
> > http://www.aeroexpo.online/prod/lx-navigation-doo/product-171396-3693.html
> >
> > The only distributor listed for the US is Cumulus Soaring, but Paul does not carry this product. Does anyone have any experience with this ASI and knows where to buy it (Europe is ok)?
> >
> > Tom
>
> Tom, you should seriously look at the Garmin G5 to replace a slew of instruments:
> http://www.chiefaircraft.com/gmn-010-01485-00.html?gclid=CjwKCAjws8vaBRBFEiwAQfhs-E9AUYFeBeaQASAv5AwGkj-YBBTU8D-8OWT_VaGCfJz8l8O09-x6YhoCo0MQAvD_BwE
> Much cheaper than the others discussed and it includes an attitude indicator (plus ALT, ASI, Heading and vert. speed uncomp.). With a good backup battery, that thing would save you a lot of panel space.
> Herb, J7
Herb,
Good call; this is an approach I haven't considered. The G5, after much search, has a pretty decent power consumption (200mA).
Tom
On Saturday, July 21, 2018 at 7:56:03 AM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> On Friday, July 20, 2018 at 5:00:41 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> > Le mardi 17 juillet 2018 21:02:53 UTC-4, 2G a écrit*:
> > > As you may already know, I am ordering a new ASH31Mi. I am in the process of coming up with the panel layout and instrument selection. I would love to here from other pilots what they consider to be their dream panel (cost is not an issue).
> > > Tom
> >
> > Hi
> > So the dream panel include a lot of air avionic product.
> >
> > Looking at the last 3 sailplane GP participant equipement it include mostly of LX Nav,a few LX Navigation and a few of all the other including Air glide product in their panel.
> > I wonder why?
> > Gilles
>
> Yes, it seems that the bulk of innovation is coming out of two companies!
>
> I am looking for a digital ASI and found this one from, guess who, LX NAV:
> http://www.aeroexpo.online/prod/lx-navigation-doo/product-171396-3693.html
>
> The only distributor listed for the US is Cumulus Soaring, but Paul does not carry this product. Does anyone have any experience with this ASI and knows where to buy it (Europe is ok)?
>
> Tom
Being experimental, its a no brainer to take out steam-driven ASI, clock, altimeter and compass and use my LX 9000 for all that data.
Dan Marotta
July 22nd 18, 03:22 AM
I've got two G5s in my airplane, one as an ADI and the other as an HSI.*
Either can perform the functions of the other and the internal battery
is good for 4 hours, I believe.* Great instruments!* I'd have them in my
glider if I didn't already have a Dynon.
On 7/21/2018 10:39 AM, wrote:
> On Saturday, July 21, 2018 at 9:56:03 AM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
>> On Friday, July 20, 2018 at 5:00:41 AM UTC-7, wrote:
>>> Le mardi 17 juillet 2018 21:02:53 UTC-4, 2G a écrit*:
>>>> As you may already know, I am ordering a new ASH31Mi. I am in the process of coming up with the panel layout and instrument selection. I would love to here from other pilots what they consider to be their dream panel (cost is not an issue).
>>>> Tom
>>> Hi
>>> So the dream panel include a lot of air avionic product.
>>>
>>> Looking at the last 3 sailplane GP participant equipement it include mostly of LX Nav,a few LX Navigation and a few of all the other including Air glide product in their panel.
>>> I wonder why?
>>> Gilles
>> Yes, it seems that the bulk of innovation is coming out of two companies!
>>
>> I am looking for a digital ASI and found this one from, guess who, LX NAV:
>> http://www.aeroexpo.online/prod/lx-navigation-doo/product-171396-3693.html
>>
>> The only distributor listed for the US is Cumulus Soaring, but Paul does not carry this product. Does anyone have any experience with this ASI and knows where to buy it (Europe is ok)?
>>
>> Tom
> Tom, you should seriously look at the Garmin G5 to replace a slew of instruments:
> http://www.chiefaircraft.com/gmn-010-01485-00.html?gclid=CjwKCAjws8vaBRBFEiwAQfhs-E9AUYFeBeaQASAv5AwGkj-YBBTU8D-8OWT_VaGCfJz8l8O09-x6YhoCo0MQAvD_BwE
> Much cheaper than the others discussed and it includes an attitude indicator (plus ALT, ASI, Heading and vert. speed uncomp.). With a good backup battery, that thing would save you a lot of panel space.
> Herb, J7
--
Dan, 5J
Darryl Ramm
July 22nd 18, 06:47 AM
I'm not sure why you would you use a UAT-Out only GDL 82--which is invisible to PowerFLARM. Other PowerFLARM equipped gliders will see your PowerFLARM's FLARM signal, but you will not have the long-range benefits of having 1090ES Out for those gliders to see you via 1090ES. Why not just use a TT22 with ADS-B Out with a TN72 GPS source for SIL=3/2020 Compliance, assuming the glider will be experimental.
Another benefit (for folks who care about wave windows) is a TT22 with TN72 in an experimental glider will get you above 18,000' after 2020. Guaranteed. Without any reliance on wave window agreements actually waiving the full 2020 Compliant 1090ES Out requirement above 18,000'. But sure that's not an issue for many glider pilots.
VT-01 transponders can't do ADS-B Out in the USA, since they are not TSO-C166b/DO-260B compliant, the *B* matters. I'd be cautious of promises from Air Avionic for future support for that, I'm sure they'll get there eventually but as you know they've had challenges meeting some recent/past promises.
Schleicher will install most items though circuit breakers. But, historically at least, not ILEC engine controllers and fuel pumps on fuses.
As suggested already, I would discuss with Rex having him do the panel for you in the USA.
Since I think you might have mention Air Avionics ADS-B receivers or displays in the past, be careful of assuming Air Avionics systems will display all ADS-B targets in the USA. Their ADS-B receivers can't receive UAT, or combine it from other UAT-In sources (same issue as other FLARM serial protocol traffic displays), and their ADS-B/1090ES receivers have the same issues as PowerFLARM with lack of TIS-B and ADS-R receive capability. If you do ask them, ask very careful questions for what exactly they support with ADS-B systems in the USA. They really are very much European focused.
On Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 9:36:53 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 7:36:26 PM UTC-7, Roy B. wrote:
> > LX9070 computer with V9 vario, Remote stick, Wifi & AHRS options, KRT2 radio,Trig transponder (w/ADS-B out), 57mm Winter mechanical vario, ASI & altimeter, PowerFlarm feeding Flarmview 2. Solar panel with switching between separate LIpo batteries and ability to run any instrument on either battery and/or charge either battery. Switched gear warn system. Circuit breakers (not fuses), simple compass.
> > Total Cost about $14,000 USD
> > ROY
>
> Sounds good, except I would go with the Air Avionics ACD (Air Control Display), paired with the KRT2 and VT-01 Mode S transponder (saves 1 panel cutout). And I would add the Garmin GDL 82 ADS-B. I would also use the Air Avionics altimeter (it's awesome!).
>
> Schleicher has a thing about circuit breakers (?!).
>
> Tom
Darryl Ramm
July 22nd 18, 06:55 AM
On Wednesday, July 18, 2018 at 8:07:37 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
[snip]
> Powerflarm absolutely outputs ADSB 1090ES contacts. Whether your display shows them is up to it. Mine does. It does NOT display the funky USA only UAT contacts (unless they are rebroadcast as 1090ES).
>
Ah last sentence there is not correct. The PowerFLARM does not receive ADS-R data, so even if a UAT-Out target is rebroadcast you will not see it via a PowerFLARM. What display you use is irrelevent.
And this applies wether you have ADS-B Out (including TABS) to make your glider an ADS-B ground services client or that ADS-R service is being provided for some other nearby aircraft. The PowerFLARM just does not understand ADS-R messages.
On Sunday, 22 July 2018 02:44:17 UTC+1, 2G wrote:
> On Saturday, July 21, 2018 at 11:46:33 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> > On Saturday, 21 July 2018 15:56:03 UTC+1, 2G wrote:
> > > On Friday, July 20, 2018 at 5:00:41 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> > > > Le mardi 17 juillet 2018 21:02:53 UTC-4, 2G a écrit*:
> > > > > As you may already know, I am ordering a new ASH31Mi. I am in the process of coming up with the panel layout and instrument selection. I would love to here from other pilots what they consider to be their dream panel (cost is not an issue).
> > > > > Tom
> > > >
> > > > Hi
> > > > So the dream panel include a lot of air avionic product.
> > > >
> > > > Looking at the last 3 sailplane GP participant equipement it include mostly of LX Nav,a few LX Navigation and a few of all the other including Air glide product in their panel.
> > > > I wonder why?
> > > > Gilles
> > >
> > > Yes, it seems that the bulk of innovation is coming out of two companies!
> > >
> > > I am looking for a digital ASI and found this one from, guess who, LX NAV:
> > > http://www.aeroexpo.online/prod/lx-navigation-doo/product-171396-3693..html
> > >
> > > The only distributor listed for the US is Cumulus Soaring, but Paul does not carry this product. Does anyone have any experience with this ASI and knows where to buy it (Europe is ok)?
> > >
> > > Tom
> >
> > Its by LX Navigation not LX Nav
>
> I don't particularly care who it's by, where do I BUY it?
>
> Tom
You might be able to order it direct from the factory. Their dealer page also lists W&W & a Canadian distributor, although neither advertise it on their website.
http://www.lxnavigation.com/powered-aviation/salus/
http://www.lxnavigation.com/buy/
LX Avionics offer one for about $1200:
http://lxavionics.co.uk/lxcart/index.php?route=product/product&path=105_127&product_id=905
I'd take a 57mm Kanardia Horis over the Dynon any day.
http://www.kanardia.eu/product/horis/
On Saturday, July 21, 2018 at 10:47:58 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> I'm not sure why you would you use a UAT-Out only GDL 82--which is invisible to PowerFLARM. Other PowerFLARM equipped gliders will see your PowerFLARM's FLARM signal, but you will not have the long-range benefits of having 1090ES Out for those gliders to see you via 1090ES. Why not just use a TT22 with ADS-B Out with a TN72 GPS source for SIL=3/2020 Compliance, assuming the glider will be experimental.
>
> Another benefit (for folks who care about wave windows) is a TT22 with TN72 in an experimental glider will get you above 18,000' after 2020. Guaranteed. Without any reliance on wave window agreements actually waiving the full 2020 Compliant 1090ES Out requirement above 18,000'. But sure that's not an issue for many glider pilots.
>
> VT-01 transponders can't do ADS-B Out in the USA, since they are not TSO-C166b/DO-260B compliant, the *B* matters. I'd be cautious of promises from Air Avionic for future support for that, I'm sure they'll get there eventually but as you know they've had challenges meeting some recent/past promises.
>
> Schleicher will install most items though circuit breakers. But, historically at least, not ILEC engine controllers and fuel pumps on fuses.
>
> As suggested already, I would discuss with Rex having him do the panel for you in the USA.
>
> Since I think you might have mention Air Avionics ADS-B receivers or displays in the past, be careful of assuming Air Avionics systems will display all ADS-B targets in the USA. Their ADS-B receivers can't receive UAT, or combine it from other UAT-In sources (same issue as other FLARM serial protocol traffic displays), and their ADS-B/1090ES receivers have the same issues as PowerFLARM with lack of TIS-B and ADS-R receive capability. If you do ask them, ask very careful questions for what exactly they support with ADS-B systems in the USA. They really are very much European focused.
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 9:36:53 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > On Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 7:36:26 PM UTC-7, Roy B. wrote:
> > > LX9070 computer with V9 vario, Remote stick, Wifi & AHRS options, KRT2 radio,Trig transponder (w/ADS-B out), 57mm Winter mechanical vario, ASI & altimeter, PowerFlarm feeding Flarmview 2. Solar panel with switching between separate LIpo batteries and ability to run any instrument on either battery and/or charge either battery. Switched gear warn system. Circuit breakers (not fuses), simple compass.
> > > Total Cost about $14,000 USD
> > > ROY
> >
> > Sounds good, except I would go with the Air Avionics ACD (Air Control Display), paired with the KRT2 and VT-01 Mode S transponder (saves 1 panel cutout). And I would add the Garmin GDL 82 ADS-B. I would also use the Air Avionics altimeter (it's awesome!).
> >
> > Schleicher has a thing about circuit breakers (?!).
> >
> > Tom
Thanks for the response. I revisited the TN72 and found that Trig is now making two different versions of the TN72: the TN72 TABS GPS and the TN72 X GPS, the later providing SIL 3 and full ADS-B out compliance for non-certified aircraft (which my 31Mi will be, thank God!). It is unclear to me, however, whether these are actually two different products, or are configured to be one or the other upon installation (https://www.trig-avionics.com/product/tn72-gps-receiver/).
Any other certified GPS is large and is a challenge to mount in our gliders.. The GDL 82 could be mounted anywhere in the aircraft (within reason), so that made it attractive. The TN72 is small, and can definitely be mounted behind the instrument panel.
Tom
On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 9:58:52 AM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> On Saturday, July 21, 2018 at 10:47:58 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > I'm not sure why you would you use a UAT-Out only GDL 82--which is invisible to PowerFLARM. Other PowerFLARM equipped gliders will see your PowerFLARM's FLARM signal, but you will not have the long-range benefits of having 1090ES Out for those gliders to see you via 1090ES. Why not just use a TT22 with ADS-B Out with a TN72 GPS source for SIL=3/2020 Compliance, assuming the glider will be experimental.
> >
> > Another benefit (for folks who care about wave windows) is a TT22 with TN72 in an experimental glider will get you above 18,000' after 2020. Guaranteed. Without any reliance on wave window agreements actually waiving the full 2020 Compliant 1090ES Out requirement above 18,000'. But sure that's not an issue for many glider pilots.
> >
> > VT-01 transponders can't do ADS-B Out in the USA, since they are not TSO-C166b/DO-260B compliant, the *B* matters. I'd be cautious of promises from Air Avionic for future support for that, I'm sure they'll get there eventually but as you know they've had challenges meeting some recent/past promises.
> >
> > Schleicher will install most items though circuit breakers. But, historically at least, not ILEC engine controllers and fuel pumps on fuses.
> >
> > As suggested already, I would discuss with Rex having him do the panel for you in the USA.
> >
> > Since I think you might have mention Air Avionics ADS-B receivers or displays in the past, be careful of assuming Air Avionics systems will display all ADS-B targets in the USA. Their ADS-B receivers can't receive UAT, or combine it from other UAT-In sources (same issue as other FLARM serial protocol traffic displays), and their ADS-B/1090ES receivers have the same issues as PowerFLARM with lack of TIS-B and ADS-R receive capability. If you do ask them, ask very careful questions for what exactly they support with ADS-B systems in the USA. They really are very much European focused.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 9:36:53 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 7:36:26 PM UTC-7, Roy B. wrote:
> > > > LX9070 computer with V9 vario, Remote stick, Wifi & AHRS options, KRT2 radio,Trig transponder (w/ADS-B out), 57mm Winter mechanical vario, ASI & altimeter, PowerFlarm feeding Flarmview 2. Solar panel with switching between separate LIpo batteries and ability to run any instrument on either battery and/or charge either battery. Switched gear warn system. Circuit breakers (not fuses), simple compass.
> > > > Total Cost about $14,000 USD
> > > > ROY
> > >
> > > Sounds good, except I would go with the Air Avionics ACD (Air Control Display), paired with the KRT2 and VT-01 Mode S transponder (saves 1 panel cutout). And I would add the Garmin GDL 82 ADS-B. I would also use the Air Avionics altimeter (it's awesome!).
> > >
> > > Schleicher has a thing about circuit breakers (?!).
> > >
> > > Tom
>
> Thanks for the response. I revisited the TN72 and found that Trig is now making two different versions of the TN72: the TN72 TABS GPS and the TN72 X GPS, the later providing SIL 3 and full ADS-B out compliance for non-certified aircraft (which my 31Mi will be, thank God!). It is unclear to me, however, whether these are actually two different products, or are configured to be one or the other upon installation (https://www.trig-avionics.com/product/tn72-gps-receiver/).
>
> Any other certified GPS is large and is a challenge to mount in our gliders. The GDL 82 could be mounted anywhere in the aircraft (within reason), so that made it attractive. The TN72 is small, and can definitely be mounted behind the instrument panel.
>
> Tom
I think I found the answer to my own question: there is only one version of the TN72, configuration means the other components you have to have to meet full ADS-B Out compliance (this includes a certified GPS antenna). Here is an example of a fully compliant bundle which includes the TN72, TT22, antenna and control head:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/trig-2020bundle-11-16299.php?clickkey=3436497
This is a bargain as it is only $700 more than just the TN70 by itself. The only wart is finding a place for the antenna, but this is mandatory for any fully compliant ADS-B Out installation. Rex says I can put it in the baggage area.
Tom
jfitch
July 22nd 18, 10:19 PM
On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 10:16:16 AM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 9:58:52 AM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > On Saturday, July 21, 2018 at 10:47:58 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > > I'm not sure why you would you use a UAT-Out only GDL 82--which is invisible to PowerFLARM. Other PowerFLARM equipped gliders will see your PowerFLARM's FLARM signal, but you will not have the long-range benefits of having 1090ES Out for those gliders to see you via 1090ES. Why not just use a TT22 with ADS-B Out with a TN72 GPS source for SIL=3/2020 Compliance, assuming the glider will be experimental.
> > >
> > > Another benefit (for folks who care about wave windows) is a TT22 with TN72 in an experimental glider will get you above 18,000' after 2020. Guaranteed. Without any reliance on wave window agreements actually waiving the full 2020 Compliant 1090ES Out requirement above 18,000'. But sure that's not an issue for many glider pilots.
> > >
> > > VT-01 transponders can't do ADS-B Out in the USA, since they are not TSO-C166b/DO-260B compliant, the *B* matters. I'd be cautious of promises from Air Avionic for future support for that, I'm sure they'll get there eventually but as you know they've had challenges meeting some recent/past promises.
> > >
> > > Schleicher will install most items though circuit breakers. But, historically at least, not ILEC engine controllers and fuel pumps on fuses.
> > >
> > > As suggested already, I would discuss with Rex having him do the panel for you in the USA.
> > >
> > > Since I think you might have mention Air Avionics ADS-B receivers or displays in the past, be careful of assuming Air Avionics systems will display all ADS-B targets in the USA. Their ADS-B receivers can't receive UAT, or combine it from other UAT-In sources (same issue as other FLARM serial protocol traffic displays), and their ADS-B/1090ES receivers have the same issues as PowerFLARM with lack of TIS-B and ADS-R receive capability. If you do ask them, ask very careful questions for what exactly they support with ADS-B systems in the USA. They really are very much European focused.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 9:36:53 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 7:36:26 PM UTC-7, Roy B. wrote:
> > > > > LX9070 computer with V9 vario, Remote stick, Wifi & AHRS options, KRT2 radio,Trig transponder (w/ADS-B out), 57mm Winter mechanical vario, ASI & altimeter, PowerFlarm feeding Flarmview 2. Solar panel with switching between separate LIpo batteries and ability to run any instrument on either battery and/or charge either battery. Switched gear warn system. Circuit breakers (not fuses), simple compass.
> > > > > Total Cost about $14,000 USD
> > > > > ROY
> > > >
> > > > Sounds good, except I would go with the Air Avionics ACD (Air Control Display), paired with the KRT2 and VT-01 Mode S transponder (saves 1 panel cutout). And I would add the Garmin GDL 82 ADS-B. I would also use the Air Avionics altimeter (it's awesome!).
> > > >
> > > > Schleicher has a thing about circuit breakers (?!).
> > > >
> > > > Tom
> >
> > Thanks for the response. I revisited the TN72 and found that Trig is now making two different versions of the TN72: the TN72 TABS GPS and the TN72 X GPS, the later providing SIL 3 and full ADS-B out compliance for non-certified aircraft (which my 31Mi will be, thank God!). It is unclear to me, however, whether these are actually two different products, or are configured to be one or the other upon installation (https://www.trig-avionics.com/product/tn72-gps-receiver/).
> >
> > Any other certified GPS is large and is a challenge to mount in our gliders. The GDL 82 could be mounted anywhere in the aircraft (within reason), so that made it attractive. The TN72 is small, and can definitely be mounted behind the instrument panel.
> >
> > Tom
>
> I think I found the answer to my own question: there is only one version of the TN72, configuration means the other components you have to have to meet full ADS-B Out compliance (this includes a certified GPS antenna). Here is an example of a fully compliant bundle which includes the TN72, TT22, antenna and control head:
> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/trig-2020bundle-11-16299.php?clickkey=3436497
> This is a bargain as it is only $700 more than just the TN70 by itself. The only wart is finding a place for the antenna, but this is mandatory for any fully compliant ADS-B Out installation. Rex says I can put it in the baggage area.
>
> Tom
It is a testament to the inanity and illogic of government regulations that this bundle meets the requirements for experimental gliders and light sport aircraft, but not for certified gliders.
On the other hand, just Thursday I talked to NorCal Approach while transiting the Reno south approach pattern. I asked them if they could see me on ADS-B. After a very long pause, the controller said he didn't know, the pilots knew a lot more about this than they did, and their briefing and training on the equipment they were using did not include an explanation of the difference, or whether they could even tell from the equipment.
Darryl Ramm
July 22nd 18, 10:55 PM
On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 2:19:09 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 10:16:16 AM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 9:58:52 AM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > > On Saturday, July 21, 2018 at 10:47:58 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > > > I'm not sure why you would you use a UAT-Out only GDL 82--which is invisible to PowerFLARM. Other PowerFLARM equipped gliders will see your PowerFLARM's FLARM signal, but you will not have the long-range benefits of having 1090ES Out for those gliders to see you via 1090ES. Why not just use a TT22 with ADS-B Out with a TN72 GPS source for SIL=3/2020 Compliance, assuming the glider will be experimental.
> > > >
> > > > Another benefit (for folks who care about wave windows) is a TT22 with TN72 in an experimental glider will get you above 18,000' after 2020. Guaranteed. Without any reliance on wave window agreements actually waiving the full 2020 Compliant 1090ES Out requirement above 18,000'. But sure that's not an issue for many glider pilots.
> > > >
> > > > VT-01 transponders can't do ADS-B Out in the USA, since they are not TSO-C166b/DO-260B compliant, the *B* matters. I'd be cautious of promises from Air Avionic for future support for that, I'm sure they'll get there eventually but as you know they've had challenges meeting some recent/past promises.
> > > >
> > > > Schleicher will install most items though circuit breakers. But, historically at least, not ILEC engine controllers and fuel pumps on fuses.
> > > >
> > > > As suggested already, I would discuss with Rex having him do the panel for you in the USA.
> > > >
> > > > Since I think you might have mention Air Avionics ADS-B receivers or displays in the past, be careful of assuming Air Avionics systems will display all ADS-B targets in the USA. Their ADS-B receivers can't receive UAT, or combine it from other UAT-In sources (same issue as other FLARM serial protocol traffic displays), and their ADS-B/1090ES receivers have the same issues as PowerFLARM with lack of TIS-B and ADS-R receive capability. If you do ask them, ask very careful questions for what exactly they support with ADS-B systems in the USA. They really are very much European focused.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 9:36:53 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > > > > On Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 7:36:26 PM UTC-7, Roy B. wrote:
> > > > > > LX9070 computer with V9 vario, Remote stick, Wifi & AHRS options, KRT2 radio,Trig transponder (w/ADS-B out), 57mm Winter mechanical vario, ASI & altimeter, PowerFlarm feeding Flarmview 2. Solar panel with switching between separate LIpo batteries and ability to run any instrument on either battery and/or charge either battery. Switched gear warn system. Circuit breakers (not fuses), simple compass.
> > > > > > Total Cost about $14,000 USD
> > > > > > ROY
> > > > >
> > > > > Sounds good, except I would go with the Air Avionics ACD (Air Control Display), paired with the KRT2 and VT-01 Mode S transponder (saves 1 panel cutout). And I would add the Garmin GDL 82 ADS-B. I would also use the Air Avionics altimeter (it's awesome!).
> > > > >
> > > > > Schleicher has a thing about circuit breakers (?!).
> > > > >
> > > > > Tom
> > >
> > > Thanks for the response. I revisited the TN72 and found that Trig is now making two different versions of the TN72: the TN72 TABS GPS and the TN72 X GPS, the later providing SIL 3 and full ADS-B out compliance for non-certified aircraft (which my 31Mi will be, thank God!). It is unclear to me, however, whether these are actually two different products, or are configured to be one or the other upon installation (https://www.trig-avionics.com/product/tn72-gps-receiver/).
> > >
> > > Any other certified GPS is large and is a challenge to mount in our gliders. The GDL 82 could be mounted anywhere in the aircraft (within reason), so that made it attractive. The TN72 is small, and can definitely be mounted behind the instrument panel.
> > >
> > > Tom
> >
> > I think I found the answer to my own question: there is only one version of the TN72, configuration means the other components you have to have to meet full ADS-B Out compliance (this includes a certified GPS antenna). Here is an example of a fully compliant bundle which includes the TN72, TT22, antenna and control head:
> > http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/trig-2020bundle-11-16299.php?clickkey=3436497
> > This is a bargain as it is only $700 more than just the TN70 by itself. The only wart is finding a place for the antenna, but this is mandatory for any fully compliant ADS-B Out installation. Rex says I can put it in the baggage area.
> >
> > Tom
>
> It is a testament to the inanity and illogic of government regulations that this bundle meets the requirements for experimental gliders and light sport aircraft, but not for certified gliders.
>
> On the other hand, just Thursday I talked to NorCal Approach while transiting the Reno south approach pattern. I asked them if they could see me on ADS-B. After a very long pause, the controller said he didn't know, the pilots knew a lot more about this than they did, and their briefing and training on the equipment they were using did not include an explanation of the difference, or whether they could even tell from the equipment.
These are very complex integrated systems. I suspect you don't want controller displays cluttered up with information about what/how data is getting to them. Last time I checked, (earlier this year) with NORCAL TRACON folks their Fusion software is configured to shows SSR derived targets anytime the traffic is visible via SSR, when there is no SSR target it shows an ADS-B derived target if that data is available. I have no idea if/when that may change in future. If you have SIL=1 (aka TABS) the system will not display you via ADS-B to a controller in any situation.
Darryl Ramm
July 22nd 18, 11:10 PM
On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 9:58:52 AM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> On Saturday, July 21, 2018 at 10:47:58 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > I'm not sure why you would you use a UAT-Out only GDL 82--which is invisible to PowerFLARM. Other PowerFLARM equipped gliders will see your PowerFLARM's FLARM signal, but you will not have the long-range benefits of having 1090ES Out for those gliders to see you via 1090ES. Why not just use a TT22 with ADS-B Out with a TN72 GPS source for SIL=3/2020 Compliance, assuming the glider will be experimental.
> >
> > Another benefit (for folks who care about wave windows) is a TT22 with TN72 in an experimental glider will get you above 18,000' after 2020. Guaranteed. Without any reliance on wave window agreements actually waiving the full 2020 Compliant 1090ES Out requirement above 18,000'. But sure that's not an issue for many glider pilots.
> >
> > VT-01 transponders can't do ADS-B Out in the USA, since they are not TSO-C166b/DO-260B compliant, the *B* matters. I'd be cautious of promises from Air Avionic for future support for that, I'm sure they'll get there eventually but as you know they've had challenges meeting some recent/past promises.
> >
> > Schleicher will install most items though circuit breakers. But, historically at least, not ILEC engine controllers and fuel pumps on fuses.
> >
> > As suggested already, I would discuss with Rex having him do the panel for you in the USA.
> >
> > Since I think you might have mention Air Avionics ADS-B receivers or displays in the past, be careful of assuming Air Avionics systems will display all ADS-B targets in the USA. Their ADS-B receivers can't receive UAT, or combine it from other UAT-In sources (same issue as other FLARM serial protocol traffic displays), and their ADS-B/1090ES receivers have the same issues as PowerFLARM with lack of TIS-B and ADS-R receive capability. If you do ask them, ask very careful questions for what exactly they support with ADS-B systems in the USA. They really are very much European focused.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 9:36:53 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 7:36:26 PM UTC-7, Roy B. wrote:
> > > > LX9070 computer with V9 vario, Remote stick, Wifi & AHRS options, KRT2 radio,Trig transponder (w/ADS-B out), 57mm Winter mechanical vario, ASI & altimeter, PowerFlarm feeding Flarmview 2. Solar panel with switching between separate LIpo batteries and ability to run any instrument on either battery and/or charge either battery. Switched gear warn system. Circuit breakers (not fuses), simple compass.
> > > > Total Cost about $14,000 USD
> > > > ROY
> > >
> > > Sounds good, except I would go with the Air Avionics ACD (Air Control Display), paired with the KRT2 and VT-01 Mode S transponder (saves 1 panel cutout). And I would add the Garmin GDL 82 ADS-B. I would also use the Air Avionics altimeter (it's awesome!).
> > >
> > > Schleicher has a thing about circuit breakers (?!).
> > >
> > > Tom
>
> Thanks for the response. I revisited the TN72 and found that Trig is now making two different versions of the TN72: the TN72 TABS GPS and the TN72 X GPS, the later providing SIL 3 and full ADS-B out compliance for non-certified aircraft (which my 31Mi will be, thank God!). It is unclear to me, however, whether these are actually two different products, or are configured to be one or the other upon installation (https://www.trig-avionics.com/product/tn72-gps-receiver/).
>
> Any other certified GPS is large and is a challenge to mount in our gliders. The GDL 82 could be mounted anywhere in the aircraft (within reason), so that made it attractive. The TN72 is small, and can definitely be mounted behind the instrument panel.
>
> Tom
Tom
AFAIK both of these TN72 "models" are the same actual device. I understand Trig did this packaging change to try to avoid confusion about use for TABS and 2020 Compliance in different aircraft with the same GPS Source. Trying to make it clearer that the TN72 can be used for TABS in some aircraft (e..g. mostly only really makes sense for gliders with their ADS-B out exemption), and can be used for full 2020 Compliant ADS-B out in (experimental and light-sports) others. I understand their likely frustration with the bureaucracy that creates this insanity but I disagree that repackaging the TN72 into two different models is the best way to help avoid confusion (it may create more). I tried to encourage them to just provide clearer information online and in documentation. But here we are. Anyhow for now at least, its best to order whatever TN72 version is appropriate and make sure all the documentation in the kit is correct for he intended use.
OTOH I really appreciate all that Trig did in getting USA compatible ADS-B Out going so early in their products. The FAA air survey King Airs etc. were flying with Trig ADS-B Out systems early on, so we know their stuff really works well, and Trig does provide good support for the glider community in the USA.
On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 2:19:09 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 10:16:16 AM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 9:58:52 AM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > > On Saturday, July 21, 2018 at 10:47:58 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > > > I'm not sure why you would you use a UAT-Out only GDL 82--which is invisible to PowerFLARM. Other PowerFLARM equipped gliders will see your PowerFLARM's FLARM signal, but you will not have the long-range benefits of having 1090ES Out for those gliders to see you via 1090ES. Why not just use a TT22 with ADS-B Out with a TN72 GPS source for SIL=3/2020 Compliance, assuming the glider will be experimental.
> > > >
> > > > Another benefit (for folks who care about wave windows) is a TT22 with TN72 in an experimental glider will get you above 18,000' after 2020. Guaranteed. Without any reliance on wave window agreements actually waiving the full 2020 Compliant 1090ES Out requirement above 18,000'. But sure that's not an issue for many glider pilots.
> > > >
> > > > VT-01 transponders can't do ADS-B Out in the USA, since they are not TSO-C166b/DO-260B compliant, the *B* matters. I'd be cautious of promises from Air Avionic for future support for that, I'm sure they'll get there eventually but as you know they've had challenges meeting some recent/past promises.
> > > >
> > > > Schleicher will install most items though circuit breakers. But, historically at least, not ILEC engine controllers and fuel pumps on fuses.
> > > >
> > > > As suggested already, I would discuss with Rex having him do the panel for you in the USA.
> > > >
> > > > Since I think you might have mention Air Avionics ADS-B receivers or displays in the past, be careful of assuming Air Avionics systems will display all ADS-B targets in the USA. Their ADS-B receivers can't receive UAT, or combine it from other UAT-In sources (same issue as other FLARM serial protocol traffic displays), and their ADS-B/1090ES receivers have the same issues as PowerFLARM with lack of TIS-B and ADS-R receive capability. If you do ask them, ask very careful questions for what exactly they support with ADS-B systems in the USA. They really are very much European focused.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 9:36:53 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > > > > On Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 7:36:26 PM UTC-7, Roy B. wrote:
> > > > > > LX9070 computer with V9 vario, Remote stick, Wifi & AHRS options, KRT2 radio,Trig transponder (w/ADS-B out), 57mm Winter mechanical vario, ASI & altimeter, PowerFlarm feeding Flarmview 2. Solar panel with switching between separate LIpo batteries and ability to run any instrument on either battery and/or charge either battery. Switched gear warn system. Circuit breakers (not fuses), simple compass.
> > > > > > Total Cost about $14,000 USD
> > > > > > ROY
> > > > >
> > > > > Sounds good, except I would go with the Air Avionics ACD (Air Control Display), paired with the KRT2 and VT-01 Mode S transponder (saves 1 panel cutout). And I would add the Garmin GDL 82 ADS-B. I would also use the Air Avionics altimeter (it's awesome!).
> > > > >
> > > > > Schleicher has a thing about circuit breakers (?!).
> > > > >
> > > > > Tom
> > >
> > > Thanks for the response. I revisited the TN72 and found that Trig is now making two different versions of the TN72: the TN72 TABS GPS and the TN72 X GPS, the later providing SIL 3 and full ADS-B out compliance for non-certified aircraft (which my 31Mi will be, thank God!). It is unclear to me, however, whether these are actually two different products, or are configured to be one or the other upon installation (https://www.trig-avionics.com/product/tn72-gps-receiver/).
> > >
> > > Any other certified GPS is large and is a challenge to mount in our gliders. The GDL 82 could be mounted anywhere in the aircraft (within reason), so that made it attractive. The TN72 is small, and can definitely be mounted behind the instrument panel.
> > >
> > > Tom
> >
> > I think I found the answer to my own question: there is only one version of the TN72, configuration means the other components you have to have to meet full ADS-B Out compliance (this includes a certified GPS antenna). Here is an example of a fully compliant bundle which includes the TN72, TT22, antenna and control head:
> > http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/trig-2020bundle-11-16299.php?clickkey=3436497
> > This is a bargain as it is only $700 more than just the TN70 by itself. The only wart is finding a place for the antenna, but this is mandatory for any fully compliant ADS-B Out installation. Rex says I can put it in the baggage area.
> >
> > Tom
>
> It is a testament to the inanity and illogic of government regulations that this bundle meets the requirements for experimental gliders and light sport aircraft, but not for certified gliders.
>
> On the other hand, just Thursday I talked to NorCal Approach while transiting the Reno south approach pattern. I asked them if they could see me on ADS-B. After a very long pause, the controller said he didn't know, the pilots knew a lot more about this than they did, and their briefing and training on the equipment they were using did not include an explanation of the difference, or whether they could even tell from the equipment.
I absolutely agree with you - this is what happens when bureaucrats run the show. The only difference between a certified 31Mi and an experimental 31Mi is a pile of paperwork. You can buy an experiment Garmin G5 for $1,200, or you can get a TSO'd G5 for $2,200, almost TWICE the cost for the same instrument. What do you get for your extra $1,000? A piece of paper that says it is TSO'd!
Trying to reason with bureaucrats is like dancing with elephants: you don't want to get stepped on!
Tom
On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 3:11:00 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 9:58:52 AM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > On Saturday, July 21, 2018 at 10:47:58 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > > I'm not sure why you would you use a UAT-Out only GDL 82--which is invisible to PowerFLARM. Other PowerFLARM equipped gliders will see your PowerFLARM's FLARM signal, but you will not have the long-range benefits of having 1090ES Out for those gliders to see you via 1090ES. Why not just use a TT22 with ADS-B Out with a TN72 GPS source for SIL=3/2020 Compliance, assuming the glider will be experimental.
> > >
> > > Another benefit (for folks who care about wave windows) is a TT22 with TN72 in an experimental glider will get you above 18,000' after 2020. Guaranteed. Without any reliance on wave window agreements actually waiving the full 2020 Compliant 1090ES Out requirement above 18,000'. But sure that's not an issue for many glider pilots.
> > >
> > > VT-01 transponders can't do ADS-B Out in the USA, since they are not TSO-C166b/DO-260B compliant, the *B* matters. I'd be cautious of promises from Air Avionic for future support for that, I'm sure they'll get there eventually but as you know they've had challenges meeting some recent/past promises.
> > >
> > > Schleicher will install most items though circuit breakers. But, historically at least, not ILEC engine controllers and fuel pumps on fuses.
> > >
> > > As suggested already, I would discuss with Rex having him do the panel for you in the USA.
> > >
> > > Since I think you might have mention Air Avionics ADS-B receivers or displays in the past, be careful of assuming Air Avionics systems will display all ADS-B targets in the USA. Their ADS-B receivers can't receive UAT, or combine it from other UAT-In sources (same issue as other FLARM serial protocol traffic displays), and their ADS-B/1090ES receivers have the same issues as PowerFLARM with lack of TIS-B and ADS-R receive capability. If you do ask them, ask very careful questions for what exactly they support with ADS-B systems in the USA. They really are very much European focused.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 9:36:53 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 7:36:26 PM UTC-7, Roy B. wrote:
> > > > > LX9070 computer with V9 vario, Remote stick, Wifi & AHRS options, KRT2 radio,Trig transponder (w/ADS-B out), 57mm Winter mechanical vario, ASI & altimeter, PowerFlarm feeding Flarmview 2. Solar panel with switching between separate LIpo batteries and ability to run any instrument on either battery and/or charge either battery. Switched gear warn system. Circuit breakers (not fuses), simple compass.
> > > > > Total Cost about $14,000 USD
> > > > > ROY
> > > >
> > > > Sounds good, except I would go with the Air Avionics ACD (Air Control Display), paired with the KRT2 and VT-01 Mode S transponder (saves 1 panel cutout). And I would add the Garmin GDL 82 ADS-B. I would also use the Air Avionics altimeter (it's awesome!).
> > > >
> > > > Schleicher has a thing about circuit breakers (?!).
> > > >
> > > > Tom
> >
> > Thanks for the response. I revisited the TN72 and found that Trig is now making two different versions of the TN72: the TN72 TABS GPS and the TN72 X GPS, the later providing SIL 3 and full ADS-B out compliance for non-certified aircraft (which my 31Mi will be, thank God!). It is unclear to me, however, whether these are actually two different products, or are configured to be one or the other upon installation (https://www.trig-avionics.com/product/tn72-gps-receiver/).
> >
> > Any other certified GPS is large and is a challenge to mount in our gliders. The GDL 82 could be mounted anywhere in the aircraft (within reason), so that made it attractive. The TN72 is small, and can definitely be mounted behind the instrument panel.
> >
> > Tom
>
> Tom
>
> AFAIK both of these TN72 "models" are the same actual device. I understand Trig did this packaging change to try to avoid confusion about use for TABS and 2020 Compliance in different aircraft with the same GPS Source. Trying to make it clearer that the TN72 can be used for TABS in some aircraft (e.g. mostly only really makes sense for gliders with their ADS-B out exemption), and can be used for full 2020 Compliant ADS-B out in (experimental and light-sports) others. I understand their likely frustration with the bureaucracy that creates this insanity but I disagree that repackaging the TN72 into two different models is the best way to help avoid confusion (it may create more). I tried to encourage them to just provide clearer information online and in documentation. But here we are. Anyhow for now at least, its best to order whatever TN72 version is appropriate and make sure all the documentation in the kit is correct for he intended use.
>
> OTOH I really appreciate all that Trig did in getting USA compatible ADS-B Out going so early in their products. The FAA air survey King Airs etc. were flying with Trig ADS-B Out systems early on, so we know their stuff really works well, and Trig does provide good support for the glider community in the USA.
Trig is, and has been, a life-saver for the gliding and experimental aircraft groups, and I fully appreciate what they have done for us. I remember talking to the sales manager for the company that supplies Trig with the high-accuracy GPS chips used in the TN72 just before he left for England to meet with Trig a number of years ago. Wish I could remember the guy's and the company's name, but oh-well.
Anyhow, I have solved my ADS-B Out dilema.
Tom
OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net
July 23rd 18, 12:22 AM
On Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 9:36:26 PM UTC-5, Roy B. wrote:
> Circuit breakers (not fuses)
> ROY
I don't have a comment on which instruments to purchase. I only want to agree with Roy on circuit breakers over fuses. Also I feel that you should not use small value breakers (or fuses) less than 4A or you will pay a price in lost volts.
I prefer 5A+ combo breaker/switches (i.e. Tyco W31) over plain breakers. Tyco's are bulky as compared to Klixon but the Tyco eliminates a separate switch and a additional failure point. I don't agree with using a plain breaker as a switch.
One other thing I like separate on/off switches for those avionics that don't have their own internal power off capability (I have two such devices - ClearNav and FLARM Core) to be able to reset a device or if you need to save dwindling power at the end of a long flight.
Best of luck.
John OHM Ω
>
> Trig is, and has been, a life-saver for the gliding and experimental aircraft groups, and I fully appreciate what they have done for us. I remember talking to the sales manager for the company that supplies Trig with the high-accuracy GPS chips used in the TN72 just before he left for England to meet with Trig a number of years ago. Wish I could remember the guy's and the company's name, but oh-well.
>
> Anyhow, I have solved my ADS-B Out dilema.
>
> Tom
Trig is in Scotland, not England.
Richard Pfiffner[_2_]
July 23rd 18, 01:37 AM
On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 10:16:16 AM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 9:58:52 AM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > On Saturday, July 21, 2018 at 10:47:58 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > > I'm not sure why you would you use a UAT-Out only GDL 82--which is invisible to PowerFLARM. Other PowerFLARM equipped gliders will see your PowerFLARM's FLARM signal, but you will not have the long-range benefits of having 1090ES Out for those gliders to see you via 1090ES. Why not just use a TT22 with ADS-B Out with a TN72 GPS source for SIL=3/2020 Compliance, assuming the glider will be experimental.
> > >
> > > Another benefit (for folks who care about wave windows) is a TT22 with TN72 in an experimental glider will get you above 18,000' after 2020. Guaranteed. Without any reliance on wave window agreements actually waiving the full 2020 Compliant 1090ES Out requirement above 18,000'. But sure that's not an issue for many glider pilots.
> > >
> > > VT-01 transponders can't do ADS-B Out in the USA, since they are not TSO-C166b/DO-260B compliant, the *B* matters. I'd be cautious of promises from Air Avionic for future support for that, I'm sure they'll get there eventually but as you know they've had challenges meeting some recent/past promises.
> > >
> > > Schleicher will install most items though circuit breakers. But, historically at least, not ILEC engine controllers and fuel pumps on fuses.
> > >
> > > As suggested already, I would discuss with Rex having him do the panel for you in the USA.
> > >
> > > Since I think you might have mention Air Avionics ADS-B receivers or displays in the past, be careful of assuming Air Avionics systems will display all ADS-B targets in the USA. Their ADS-B receivers can't receive UAT, or combine it from other UAT-In sources (same issue as other FLARM serial protocol traffic displays), and their ADS-B/1090ES receivers have the same issues as PowerFLARM with lack of TIS-B and ADS-R receive capability. If you do ask them, ask very careful questions for what exactly they support with ADS-B systems in the USA. They really are very much European focused.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 9:36:53 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 7:36:26 PM UTC-7, Roy B. wrote:
> > > > > LX9070 computer with V9 vario, Remote stick, Wifi & AHRS options, KRT2 radio,Trig transponder (w/ADS-B out), 57mm Winter mechanical vario, ASI & altimeter, PowerFlarm feeding Flarmview 2. Solar panel with switching between separate LIpo batteries and ability to run any instrument on either battery and/or charge either battery. Switched gear warn system. Circuit breakers (not fuses), simple compass.
> > > > > Total Cost about $14,000 USD
> > > > > ROY
> > > >
> > > > Sounds good, except I would go with the Air Avionics ACD (Air Control Display), paired with the KRT2 and VT-01 Mode S transponder (saves 1 panel cutout). And I would add the Garmin GDL 82 ADS-B. I would also use the Air Avionics altimeter (it's awesome!).
> > > >
> > > > Schleicher has a thing about circuit breakers (?!).
> > > >
> > > > Tom
> >
> > Thanks for the response. I revisited the TN72 and found that Trig is now making two different versions of the TN72: the TN72 TABS GPS and the TN72 X GPS, the later providing SIL 3 and full ADS-B out compliance for non-certified aircraft (which my 31Mi will be, thank God!). It is unclear to me, however, whether these are actually two different products, or are configured to be one or the other upon installation (https://www.trig-avionics.com/product/tn72-gps-receiver/).
> >
> > Any other certified GPS is large and is a challenge to mount in our gliders. The GDL 82 could be mounted anywhere in the aircraft (within reason), so that made it attractive. The TN72 is small, and can definitely be mounted behind the instrument panel.
> >
> > Tom
>
> I think I found the answer to my own question: there is only one version of the TN72, configuration means the other components you have to have to meet full ADS-B Out compliance (this includes a certified GPS antenna). Here is an example of a fully compliant bundle which includes the TN72, TT22, antenna and control head:
> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/trig-2020bundle-11-16299.php?clickkey=3436497
> This is a bargain as it is only $700 more than just the TN70 by itself. The only wart is finding a place for the antenna, but this is mandatory for any fully compliant ADS-B Out installation. Rex says I can put it in the baggage area.
>
> Tom
Craggy Aero sells that Bundle for $2525.
Call to order
Richard
www.craggyaero.com
Richard Pfiffner[_2_]
July 23rd 18, 01:48 AM
On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 5:37:11 PM UTC-7, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 10:16:16 AM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 9:58:52 AM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > > On Saturday, July 21, 2018 at 10:47:58 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > > > I'm not sure why you would you use a UAT-Out only GDL 82--which is invisible to PowerFLARM. Other PowerFLARM equipped gliders will see your PowerFLARM's FLARM signal, but you will not have the long-range benefits of having 1090ES Out for those gliders to see you via 1090ES. Why not just use a TT22 with ADS-B Out with a TN72 GPS source for SIL=3/2020 Compliance, assuming the glider will be experimental.
> > > >
> > > > Another benefit (for folks who care about wave windows) is a TT22 with TN72 in an experimental glider will get you above 18,000' after 2020. Guaranteed. Without any reliance on wave window agreements actually waiving the full 2020 Compliant 1090ES Out requirement above 18,000'. But sure that's not an issue for many glider pilots.
> > > >
> > > > VT-01 transponders can't do ADS-B Out in the USA, since they are not TSO-C166b/DO-260B compliant, the *B* matters. I'd be cautious of promises from Air Avionic for future support for that, I'm sure they'll get there eventually but as you know they've had challenges meeting some recent/past promises.
> > > >
> > > > Schleicher will install most items though circuit breakers. But, historically at least, not ILEC engine controllers and fuel pumps on fuses.
> > > >
> > > > As suggested already, I would discuss with Rex having him do the panel for you in the USA.
> > > >
> > > > Since I think you might have mention Air Avionics ADS-B receivers or displays in the past, be careful of assuming Air Avionics systems will display all ADS-B targets in the USA. Their ADS-B receivers can't receive UAT, or combine it from other UAT-In sources (same issue as other FLARM serial protocol traffic displays), and their ADS-B/1090ES receivers have the same issues as PowerFLARM with lack of TIS-B and ADS-R receive capability. If you do ask them, ask very careful questions for what exactly they support with ADS-B systems in the USA. They really are very much European focused.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 9:36:53 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > > > > On Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 7:36:26 PM UTC-7, Roy B. wrote:
> > > > > > LX9070 computer with V9 vario, Remote stick, Wifi & AHRS options, KRT2 radio,Trig transponder (w/ADS-B out), 57mm Winter mechanical vario, ASI & altimeter, PowerFlarm feeding Flarmview 2. Solar panel with switching between separate LIpo batteries and ability to run any instrument on either battery and/or charge either battery. Switched gear warn system. Circuit breakers (not fuses), simple compass.
> > > > > > Total Cost about $14,000 USD
> > > > > > ROY
> > > > >
> > > > > Sounds good, except I would go with the Air Avionics ACD (Air Control Display), paired with the KRT2 and VT-01 Mode S transponder (saves 1 panel cutout). And I would add the Garmin GDL 82 ADS-B. I would also use the Air Avionics altimeter (it's awesome!).
> > > > >
> > > > > Schleicher has a thing about circuit breakers (?!).
> > > > >
> > > > > Tom
> > >
> > > Thanks for the response. I revisited the TN72 and found that Trig is now making two different versions of the TN72: the TN72 TABS GPS and the TN72 X GPS, the later providing SIL 3 and full ADS-B out compliance for non-certified aircraft (which my 31Mi will be, thank God!). It is unclear to me, however, whether these are actually two different products, or are configured to be one or the other upon installation (https://www.trig-avionics.com/product/tn72-gps-receiver/).
> > >
> > > Any other certified GPS is large and is a challenge to mount in our gliders. The GDL 82 could be mounted anywhere in the aircraft (within reason), so that made it attractive. The TN72 is small, and can definitely be mounted behind the instrument panel.
> > >
> > > Tom
> >
> > I think I found the answer to my own question: there is only one version of the TN72, configuration means the other components you have to have to meet full ADS-B Out compliance (this includes a certified GPS antenna). Here is an example of a fully compliant bundle which includes the TN72, TT22, antenna and control head:
> > http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/trig-2020bundle-11-16299.php?clickkey=3436497
> > This is a bargain as it is only $700 more than just the TN70 by itself. The only wart is finding a place for the antenna, but this is mandatory for any fully compliant ADS-B Out installation. Rex says I can put it in the baggage area.
> >
> > Tom
> Craggy Aero sells that Bundle for $2525.
>
> Call to order
>
> Richard
> www.craggyaero.com
Craggy Aero also supplies custom harnesses for the installation and has all in stock.
Richard
www.craggyaero.com
On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 4:22:42 PM UTC-7, OHM Ω http://aviation..derosaweb.net wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 9:36:26 PM UTC-5, Roy B. wrote:
> > Circuit breakers (not fuses)
> > ROY
>
> I don't have a comment on which instruments to purchase. I only want to agree with Roy on circuit breakers over fuses. Also I feel that you should not use small value breakers (or fuses) less than 4A or you will pay a price in lost volts.
>
> I prefer 5A+ combo breaker/switches (i.e. Tyco W31) over plain breakers. Tyco's are bulky as compared to Klixon but the Tyco eliminates a separate switch and a additional failure point. I don't agree with using a plain breaker as a switch.
>
> One other thing I like separate on/off switches for those avionics that don't have their own internal power off capability (I have two such devices - ClearNav and FLARM Core) to be able to reset a device or if you need to save dwindling power at the end of a long flight.
>
> Best of luck.
>
> John OHM Ω
John,
My problem is that I have identified 16 breakers and fuses. Some have to be fuses per Schleicher (about 4), so that leaves 12 breakers. The Tyco is over twice the area of the Klixon, by about 0.5 sq in. That means I have to come up with another 6 sq in of panel area, or 1 1/2 instruments. That just ain't happening.
Tom
Darryl Ramm
July 23rd 18, 02:59 AM
And on modern Schleicher panels many folks are installing Klixon breakers into the top of leg tunnel area under the panel. That is what I would do. That gets breakers off the panel and leaves a few fuses. The exact way to do this is point at John's ASH26Mi and ask Rex to install breakers *exactly* like that, just a beautiful engineered breaker mount block. The wiring is also likely to be much better done that way as well with long row of breakers and somple supply sude bus.
On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 4:22:58 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> >
> > Trig is, and has been, a life-saver for the gliding and experimental aircraft groups, and I fully appreciate what they have done for us. I remember talking to the sales manager for the company that supplies Trig with the high-accuracy GPS chips used in the TN72 just before he left for England to meet with Trig a number of years ago. Wish I could remember the guy's and the company's name, but oh-well.
> >
> > Anyhow, I have solved my ADS-B Out dilema.
> >
> > Tom
>
>
> Trig is in Scotland, not England.
Close enough.
jfitch
July 24th 18, 01:26 AM
On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 6:26:09 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 4:22:42 PM UTC-7, OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net wrote:
> > On Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 9:36:26 PM UTC-5, Roy B. wrote:
> > > Circuit breakers (not fuses)
> > > ROY
> >
> > I don't have a comment on which instruments to purchase. I only want to agree with Roy on circuit breakers over fuses. Also I feel that you should not use small value breakers (or fuses) less than 4A or you will pay a price in lost volts.
> >
> > I prefer 5A+ combo breaker/switches (i.e. Tyco W31) over plain breakers.. Tyco's are bulky as compared to Klixon but the Tyco eliminates a separate switch and a additional failure point. I don't agree with using a plain breaker as a switch.
> >
> > One other thing I like separate on/off switches for those avionics that don't have their own internal power off capability (I have two such devices - ClearNav and FLARM Core) to be able to reset a device or if you need to save dwindling power at the end of a long flight.
> >
> > Best of luck.
> >
> > John OHM Ω
>
> John,
>
> My problem is that I have identified 16 breakers and fuses. Some have to be fuses per Schleicher (about 4), so that leaves 12 breakers. The Tyco is over twice the area of the Klixon, by about 0.5 sq in. That means I have to come up with another 6 sq in of panel area, or 1 1/2 instruments. That just ain't happening.
>
> Tom
Klixon breakers are rated for 5000 operations at full load and 30V. A decent toggle switch is rated for a lot more, but how many times are you going to switch it? That's 7 years at twice a day. A separate switch is nice, but adds wiring, takes space, and reduces reliability.
Out of curiosity, which circuits does Schleicher insist are fuses, and was there any rational to go along with it? The specs of glass fuses and good thermal breakers are functionally identical. From experience I know that Kixon breakers are more reliable than the glass fuse holders AS uses.
One more thing to point out is the micro rotary switches that AS uses for power switching are not really rated for typical currents. The ones supplied in mine (similar to NKK MRY106) were a 2A AC, 1A DC switch. I've seen lots of these in gliders. I replaced them with NKK MRT23 switches, rated for 3A DC, and paralleled the two poles for 6A.
I'd ask for a LED indicator pilot light on a couple of circuits: the Pump 2 and the Refuel Auto. These are easy to leave on and you don't want to.
On Monday, July 23, 2018 at 5:26:02 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 6:26:09 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 4:22:42 PM UTC-7, OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, July 17, 2018 at 9:36:26 PM UTC-5, Roy B. wrote:
> > > > Circuit breakers (not fuses)
> > > > ROY
> > >
> > > I don't have a comment on which instruments to purchase. I only want to agree with Roy on circuit breakers over fuses. Also I feel that you should not use small value breakers (or fuses) less than 4A or you will pay a price in lost volts.
> > >
> > > I prefer 5A+ combo breaker/switches (i.e. Tyco W31) over plain breakers. Tyco's are bulky as compared to Klixon but the Tyco eliminates a separate switch and a additional failure point. I don't agree with using a plain breaker as a switch.
> > >
> > > One other thing I like separate on/off switches for those avionics that don't have their own internal power off capability (I have two such devices - ClearNav and FLARM Core) to be able to reset a device or if you need to save dwindling power at the end of a long flight.
> > >
> > > Best of luck.
> > >
> > > John OHM Ω
> >
> > John,
> >
> > My problem is that I have identified 16 breakers and fuses. Some have to be fuses per Schleicher (about 4), so that leaves 12 breakers. The Tyco is over twice the area of the Klixon, by about 0.5 sq in. That means I have to come up with another 6 sq in of panel area, or 1 1/2 instruments. That just ain't happening.
> >
> > Tom
>
> Klixon breakers are rated for 5000 operations at full load and 30V. A decent toggle switch is rated for a lot more, but how many times are you going to switch it? That's 7 years at twice a day. A separate switch is nice, but adds wiring, takes space, and reduces reliability.
>
> Out of curiosity, which circuits does Schleicher insist are fuses, and was there any rational to go along with it? The specs of glass fuses and good thermal breakers are functionally identical. From experience I know that Kixon breakers are more reliable than the glass fuse holders AS uses.
>
> One more thing to point out is the micro rotary switches that AS uses for power switching are not really rated for typical currents. The ones supplied in mine (similar to NKK MRY106) were a 2A AC, 1A DC switch. I've seen lots of these in gliders. I replaced them with NKK MRT23 switches, rated for 3A DC, and paralleled the two poles for 6A.
>
> I'd ask for a LED indicator pilot light on a couple of circuits: the Pump 2 and the Refuel Auto. These are easy to leave on and you don't want to.
Rex says the circuits requiring fuses by Schleicher (engine related) are a certification issue. Exactly what kind of certification issue, I don't know..
Tom
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