US team silence

[John Cochrane[_3_]]

In the entire club, 15, and standard WGC, the US team posted a grand total of two pilot reports about what was going on

https://ussoaringteams.org/#news

Clearly there were lots of lessons learned here!

US team: you want our support. You want our money. You want our volunteer time. And yet you can't be bothered to post any news at all about the contest. Take a look at any of your competitors -- the UK team is a good example. If you're too tired to write, at least post a 30 second video of the story of the day!

John Cochrane BB

[Andrzej Kobus]

On Saturday, July 21, 2018 at 2:42:01 PM UTC-4, John Cochrane wrote:
> In the entire club, 15, and standard WGC, the US team posted a grand total of two pilot reports about what was going on
>
> https://ussoaringteams.org/#news
>
> Clearly there were lots of lessons learned here!
>
> US team: you want our support. You want our money. You want our volunteer time. And yet you can't be bothered to post any news at all about the contest. Take a look at any of your competitors -- the UK team is a good example. If you're too tired to write, at least post a 30 second video of the story of the day!
>
> John Cochrane BB

First of all, congratulations to Jim Lee for excellent result, way to go!

In regards to reporting, I am no longer surprised.

[[email protected]]

They're all over Facebook...

[Tony[_5_]]

Yea plenty posted on Facebook. Youve been there done that John, there's plenty of other things for the pilots and crews to do besides writing reports.

[jfitch]

On Saturday, July 21, 2018 at 5:36:46 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> They're all over Facebook...

Strange as it may seem, some of us do not have a Facebook account, and are not likely to in this lifetime.

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Saturday, July 21, 2018 at 10:21:46 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> On Saturday, July 21, 2018 at 5:36:46 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > They're all over Facebook...
>
> Strange as it may seem, some of us do not have a Facebook account, and are not likely to in this lifetime.

I am not a big fan of the pervasive data mining of FB either. Any FB post should easily be posted to the team blog also...?

[Charlie Quebec]

Us team finished 23rd out of 24. I would be keeping quiet too.
Not a big fan of Sean Fidler, but he certainly had a point that not using FAI rules for US comps ensures bad results.

[Retting]

Other than two that did OK, the others make me realize how bad I suck. Those in the know always point out ‘team flying’.
I would like to simply read or hear about the Science of how the winners do it, IF there is more to it than wiggling the stick and making tight turns.
Our guys are all good pilots, they showed up.
R

[[email protected]]

John,

Are you volunteering to fund a dedicated PR person like these other teams have? Cool! Well done. The US team thanks you for your support.

[Michael Opitz]

At 06:31 22 July 2018, Charlie Quebec wrote:
>Us team finished 23rd out of 24. I would be keeping quiet too.
>Not a big fan of Sean Fidler, but he certainly had a point that not
using FAI rules for US comps ensures bad results.
>

Well, there is probably much to be said about that. I advocated for
using FAI rules in the USA back in the 1980's and '90's but was
rebuked (probably before Sean was born). The answer was that
we were down to only one insurance company that would cover
gliders due to the high breakage rates, and that they were
threatening to drop all glider coverage too, unless we did something
to minimize the damage rate in contests. So, there was this threat
of nobody being able to get insurance coverage to fly gliders
anywhere in the USA. (or so it was portrayed) The USA rules have
thus been revised to promote "lone eagle" flying, and to disperse
gaggles to a certain extent. That is what a lot of (if not most) glider
racers in the USA want and have voted for. They don't like gaggles,
(maybe over simplified) so the USA has wound up with a different
method to judge glider racing ability compared to what the rest of
the world uses. To be fair though, some of the USA ideas/changes
have been incorporated into the FAI rules, such as being able to use
a Turn Area Task on a day where thunderstorms are forecast in order
to minimize land-outs, etc...

The problem is that at a WGC, (at least in the short winged classes)
it's all about being able to fly well in gaggles and traffic. To do well
there, you not only have to be comfortable in the monster gaggle
environment, you have to be able to steer and lead it.... (This is
coming from yours truly who finished 2nd in the STDs at Benalla
in 1987 - only 37 points out of 1st place in a 12,000 point contest.
Personally, I give great credit to my former military formation
flying which has given me the ability to be more comfortable than
most while having good situational awareness when flying in
close proximity to other aircraft.)

So, CQ, in a nutshell you are correct. The USA rules and racing
experiences just don't adequately prepare USA team members
for the harsh realities of what it really takes to do well at a WGC.
If you have troubles with gaggle flying, you are not going to do
well at a WGC, especially when you are routinely presented with
gaggles of 40+ gliders all racing against each other.

(Flame suit on, but it's only my personal observation from having
"been there, done that, got the T shirt". If you have not been
there in person yourself, don't be so quick to pass judgement from
your armchair / PC.)

RO

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

Well, nice you sorta bring it up, and I have asked before on here, what are a couple/few things you think out WGC pilots are lacking based on how we do rules?

I have been looking for comments from US pilots that have flown here and a WGC.

You mention large gaggles.
I have thought team flying.
Maybe it's contest flight planning.

I have received some emails in the last couple years where certain people said, "well, we will be discussing soon, can't say anything now".
Can't say I ever heard back.

Just curious.

[Michael Opitz]

At 15:34 22 July 2018, Charlie M. UH & 002 owner/pilot wrote:
>Well, nice you sorta bring it up, and I have asked before on here,
what are
>a couple/few things you think out WGC pilots are lacking based on
how we do
>rules?
>
>I have been looking for comments from US pilots that have flown
here and a
>WGC.
>
>You mention large gaggles.
>I have thought team flying.
>Maybe it's contest flight planning.
>
>I have received some emails in the last couple years where certain
people
>said, "well, we will be discussing soon, can't say anything now".
>Can't say I ever heard back.
>
>Just curious.
>
Ideally, in my mind, you need good team flyers who also are both
(or 3) equally comfortable in huge gaggle flying. The team flying
is especially important for the times when you get split off from the
gaggle. You really need both....though look at what Makoto from
Japan was able to achieve at the 2016 and now the 2018 WGC as a
single player. In the short winged "white tornado" gaggle classes,
gaggle flying ability comes first, then team flying. USA contests are
designed to minimize the gaggle flying, WGC's are not. Contest
flight planning? Not so much. You can start with an anticipated
game plan, but once you are on course, you have to run continual
decision making loops which will generate almost immediate
deviations from the original plan. The wx and situations can change
very rapidly, and you need to be able to shift gears and deviate from
the plan ASAP. Your decision making loop process has to be faster
than that of your competitors. That is where you get ahead, but
most of that is from what develops on course, rather than pre-flight
planning.

Simply my own first hand perspective / observations....

RO

[John Godfrey (QT)[_2_]]

On Saturday, July 21, 2018 at 2:42:01 PM UTC-4, John Cochrane wrote:
> In the entire club, 15, and standard WGC, the US team posted a grand total of two pilot reports about what was going on
>
> https://ussoaringteams.org/#news
>
> Clearly there were lots of lessons learned here!
>
> US team: you want our support. You want our money. You want our volunteer time. And yet you can't be bothered to post any news at all about the contest. Take a look at any of your competitors -- the UK team is a good example. If you're too tired to write, at least post a 30 second video of the story of the day!
>
> John Cochrane BB

In the 2017 pilot poll, pilots who flew in a FAI National in 2017 prefer moving to FAI rules 69% to 31% with 59% of contest participants responding.

Just sayin...

[Karl Striedieck[_2_]]

Hopefully, US Team members will weigh in with a post mortem of the contest and their recommendations for changes in rules, preparation, and support. It has been suggested that some differences in our rules that our pilots can't adjust to when overseas is the cause. It will be interesting to see if any of the team pilots site a specific US rule that accounted for seven days of back page scores.

RO thinks there is an intimidation factor due to the greater amount of gaggling with its attendant close proximity maneuvering. But we get a lot of that here in pre-start gaggles, and one of the pilots had a previous life of yanking and banking an F-14, formation join ups and still likes to mix it up and try to pull some gunnery lead on other gliders at contests. Yet he finished next to last.

Although it's not in our rules, our CD's shun the long task calls common in Europe, and flying in tricky conditions with lots of lowish clouds, precip and weak lift.

And, to make it worse, five of the six pilots were "western" pilots and rarely have the chance to fly in these vital-to-win conditions.

As Kawa pointed out in his letter lambasting the contest directors at this WGC, the sport has evolved into a game of leachery complemented by intense use of Flarm for monitoring/chasing/vectoring competitors. Here we have very little of this.

Our best hope, for the immediate future at least, is for strong weather at future WGC's. My two silvers and an "almost" were at WGC's with great weather. Those with the tricky weather we rarely bother to fly in here found me grovelling on the back page.

Here's for booming weather in the Czech Republic next month. Go Team Go!

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

Well, to RO and KS (both have flown WGC and many US nats), I appreciate your time and thoughts.

Thanks.

I am not trying to make or sway US rule making, just seeking insight to clarify my thoughts, or, change them.

I know there has been been many "knashing of teeth" on US rules here on RAS, my question is basically, what, if anything about our rules can hinder better placing in WGC.

I know I "team flew" with a past WGC member, mostly on Fridays and maybe that helped in WGC.
We both did better.

But team sports need many hours together so you think as one.
We do it in the shop on aircraft work, you can hand a tool to someone as they are asking for it.

Not something our current rules promote.

I guess part of the question is.......do we want a US champ, or do we want to prep for WGC?

If both, then maybe our rules need to change.

[Michael Opitz]

At 17:09 22 July 2018, Karl Striedieck wrote:
>Hopefully, US Team members will weigh in with a post mortem of
the contest
>=
>and their recommendations for changes in rules, preparation, and
support.
>I=
>t has been suggested that some differences in our rules that our
pilots
>can=
>'t adjust to when overseas is the cause. It will be interesting to see
if
>a=
>ny of the team pilots site a specific US rule that accounted for
seven
>days=
> of back page scores.=20
>
>RO thinks there is an intimidation factor due to the greater amount
of
>gagg=
>ling with its attendant close proximity maneuvering. But we get a
lot of
>th=
>at here in pre-start gaggles, and one of the pilots had a previous
life of
>=
>yanking and banking an F-14, formation join ups and still likes to
mix it
>u=
>p and try to pull some gunnery lead on other gliders at contests.
Yet he
>fi=
>nished next to last.=20
>
>Although it's not in our rules, our CD's shun the long task calls
common
>in=
> Europe, and flying in tricky conditions with lots of lowish clouds,
>precip=
> and weak lift. =20
>
>And, to make it worse, five of the six pilots were "western" pilots
and
>rar=
>ely have the chance to fly in these vital-to-win conditions.=20
>
>As Kawa pointed out in his letter lambasting the contest directors
at this
>=
>WGC, the sport has evolved into a game of leachery complemented
by intense
>=
>use of Flarm for monitoring/chasing/vectoring competitors. Here
we have
>ver=
>y little of this.=20
>
>Our best hope, for the immediate future at least, is for strong
weather at
>=
>future WGC's. My two silvers and an "almost" were at WGC's with
great
>weath=
>er. Those with the tricky weather we rarely bother to fly in here
found me
>=
>grovelling on the back page.
>
>Here's for booming weather in the Czech Republic next month. Go
Team Go!
>

KS also has valid points. Having flown with KS at numerous
contests back in the 1980's, (before the current rules came into
effect), I can attest to his very astute abilities in leading, steering,
maneuvering in and otherwise having huge situational awareness
in large gaggles. KS also has a military formation flying
background, and I'm sure it helped him attain his gaggle flying
abilities. He always has his head on a swivel and never gets locked
onto just following the guy ahead of him. To me it is a given
prerequisite skill set to possess if one wants to do well at a WGC -
good wx or not. You have to be able make in-thermal corrections to
center the lift when the gaggle is flying "half in - half out". You have
to have the Situational Awareness (SA) to see a new wisp forming
off to the side and to lead the gaggle there from inside etc.. I had a
5th in Rieti and a 2nd in Benalla at "good wx" venues. I would not
have placed nearly as well had it not been for being able to be
effective at gaggle flying. KS mentions the pre-start gaggles in the
USA, but it's just not the same as when I'm on course. Pre-start
doesn't count for points, and accordingly pilots treat it differently. I
know that I do...

ps..Karl, I don't know if you are including Jim Lee as a "westerner"
because he's now out of Minden or not, but he was in FL for many
years prior, and before that he was a hang glider champion. I would
not be so quick to pigeon-hole him. Mike Westbrook may be from
TX now, but he spent a fair amount of time at Elmira in prior times
too. Add FS who officially hails from GA, and you have 3 of the 6
that aren't necessarily pure "westerners" experience wise....

RO

[2G]

On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 10:09:26 AM UTC-7, Karl Striedieck wrote:
> Hopefully, US Team members will weigh in with a post mortem of the contest and their recommendations for changes in rules, preparation, and support. It has been suggested that some differences in our rules that our pilots can't adjust to when overseas is the cause. It will be interesting to see if any of the team pilots site a specific US rule that accounted for seven days of back page scores.
>
> RO thinks there is an intimidation factor due to the greater amount of gaggling with its attendant close proximity maneuvering. But we get a lot of that here in pre-start gaggles, and one of the pilots had a previous life of yanking and banking an F-14, formation join ups and still likes to mix it up and try to pull some gunnery lead on other gliders at contests. Yet he finished next to last.
>
> Although it's not in our rules, our CD's shun the long task calls common in Europe, and flying in tricky conditions with lots of lowish clouds, precip and weak lift.
>
> And, to make it worse, five of the six pilots were "western" pilots and rarely have the chance to fly in these vital-to-win conditions.
>
> As Kawa pointed out in his letter lambasting the contest directors at this WGC, the sport has evolved into a game of leachery complemented by intense use of Flarm for monitoring/chasing/vectoring competitors. Here we have very little of this.
>
> Our best hope, for the immediate future at least, is for strong weather at future WGC's. My two silvers and an "almost" were at WGC's with great weather. Those with the tricky weather we rarely bother to fly in here found me grovelling on the back page.
>
> Here's for booming weather in the Czech Republic next month. Go Team Go!

Do you have a link to Kawa's letter?

Tom

[[email protected]]

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[Tango Eight]

On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 2:03:57 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 10:09:26 AM UTC-7, Karl Striedieck wrote:
> > Hopefully, US Team members will weigh in with a post mortem of the contest and their recommendations for changes in rules, preparation, and support. It has been suggested that some differences in our rules that our pilots can't adjust to when overseas is the cause. It will be interesting to see if any of the team pilots site a specific US rule that accounted for seven days of back page scores.
> >
> > RO thinks there is an intimidation factor due to the greater amount of gaggling with its attendant close proximity maneuvering. But we get a lot of that here in pre-start gaggles, and one of the pilots had a previous life of yanking and banking an F-14, formation join ups and still likes to mix it up and try to pull some gunnery lead on other gliders at contests. Yet he finished next to last.
> >
> > Although it's not in our rules, our CD's shun the long task calls common in Europe, and flying in tricky conditions with lots of lowish clouds, precip and weak lift.
> >
> > And, to make it worse, five of the six pilots were "western" pilots and rarely have the chance to fly in these vital-to-win conditions.
> >
> > As Kawa pointed out in his letter lambasting the contest directors at this WGC, the sport has evolved into a game of leachery complemented by intense use of Flarm for monitoring/chasing/vectoring competitors. Here we have very little of this.
> >
> > Our best hope, for the immediate future at least, is for strong weather at future WGC's. My two silvers and an "almost" were at WGC's with great weather. Those with the tricky weather we rarely bother to fly in here found me grovelling on the back page.
> >
> > Here's for booming weather in the Czech Republic next month. Go Team Go!
>
> Do you have a link to Kawa's letter?
>
> Tom

There is a rant posted on farcebook, the translation of which is sufficiently crude that I don't think it merits reposting. I don't know whether this is the "letter" referred to.

The gist of the rant is:

Sebastian dislikes passionately: flarm radar (apparently open mode flarm was required), line starts (maybe, that's a bit of an inference on my part, also referred to by a respondent on his FB page), block start times, assistance from the ground. In short, he dislikes leeching and the various rules and technology permitted which assist leeching. He also says (new to me) that cloud flying is either being permitted outright or that the prohibitions are not being enforced.

Interestingly... all of the things he dislikes are anticipated and managed by US rules....


Evan Ludeman

[Karl Striedieck[_2_]]

Here's the lousy machine translation of Kawa's message to the organizers:

I'm sorry, but bitter words have to go down. 90 % of people don't want to take the tour alone and rape the director of the competition. This one gave up and deleted the sports slots for pilots who can't fly on their own. Slots make starting 2-5 min behind the leader counts the same launch time as leader. You can't let someone go and follow it. Now we have: Flarmy without competition mode, mandatory traking, earth tips, no slots on startup, no marker event on startup. It causes a distortion of the professions competition which theoretically would have to identify the best szybowników. Instead, guided tours with guide and radio-controlled models. The competition is to cut the launch line 2-5 minutes after competitors. That's it. No need to read weather, plan, work on the road. Let the leaders do it. The situation is deteriorating year after year after the introduction of flarmu and lack of mandatory competition mode. A whole range of electronic tracking specialists has been raised and those without colored gliders on the screen in szybwocu can't make any decisions. How far away are we from the idea of gliding? Formerly Digital transmission was banned - now deleted, flying on clouds banned - now this ban ignores, help from outside forbidden - now constant communication with earth. And There's a lot of complaints in the air that you don't want to fly on your own. Yeah.

[Dave Leonard]

On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 3:56:08 PM UTC-6, Karl Striedieck wrote:
> Here's the lousy machine translation of Kawa's message to the organizers:

Here's a link to a video interview with Kawa saying about the same thing, a little less garbled

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-Y5OKfEjtk

[Tango Eight]

On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 5:25:49 PM UTC-4, Tango Eight wrote:
> On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 2:03:57 PM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> > On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 10:09:26 AM UTC-7, Karl Striedieck wrote:
> > > Hopefully, US Team members will weigh in with a post mortem of the contest and their recommendations for changes in rules, preparation, and support. It has been suggested that some differences in our rules that our pilots can't adjust to when overseas is the cause. It will be interesting to see if any of the team pilots site a specific US rule that accounted for seven days of back page scores.
> > >
> > > RO thinks there is an intimidation factor due to the greater amount of gaggling with its attendant close proximity maneuvering. But we get a lot of that here in pre-start gaggles, and one of the pilots had a previous life of yanking and banking an F-14, formation join ups and still likes to mix it up and try to pull some gunnery lead on other gliders at contests. Yet he finished next to last.
> > >
> > > Although it's not in our rules, our CD's shun the long task calls common in Europe, and flying in tricky conditions with lots of lowish clouds, precip and weak lift.
> > >
> > > And, to make it worse, five of the six pilots were "western" pilots and rarely have the chance to fly in these vital-to-win conditions.
> > >
> > > As Kawa pointed out in his letter lambasting the contest directors at this WGC, the sport has evolved into a game of leachery complemented by intense use of Flarm for monitoring/chasing/vectoring competitors. Here we have very little of this.
> > >
> > > Our best hope, for the immediate future at least, is for strong weather at future WGC's. My two silvers and an "almost" were at WGC's with great weather. Those with the tricky weather we rarely bother to fly in here found me grovelling on the back page.
> > >
> > > Here's for booming weather in the Czech Republic next month. Go Team Go!
> >
> > Do you have a link to Kawa's letter?
> >
> > Tom
>
> There is a rant posted on farcebook, the translation of which is sufficiently crude that I don't think it merits reposting. I don't know whether this is the "letter" referred to.
>
> The gist of the rant is:
>
> Sebastian dislikes passionately: flarm radar (apparently open mode flarm was required), line starts (maybe, that's a bit of an inference on my part, also referred to by a respondent on his FB page), block start times, assistance from the ground. In short, he dislikes leeching and the various rules and technology permitted which assist leeching. He also says (new to me) that cloud flying is either being permitted outright or that the prohibitions are not being enforced.
>
> Interestingly... all of the things he dislikes are anticipated and managed by US rules....
>
>
> Evan Ludeman

Error above: Sebastian preferred the blocked start times, but the organizers abandoned this towards the end of the contest for some reason.

[Tony[_5_]]

I heard that the pre-start furball was even worse with the start intervals. with the start intervals, on an iffy day, everyone wants to go at the same second. Without start intervals, people don't mind being a few seconds behind at the start, or a minute or five. Rumor was at least one team was threatening to stand down if the start intervals came back.

[Tony[_5_]]

Mak had help from the Australian team, particularly Matthew Scutter in 2016. I presume they also were cooperating on at least the final day in 2018 based on their start and finish times.

[Charlie Quebec]

I got the following response to a similar post on another forum from Aus team members Allan Barnes.
G.Dales statement is most interesting



There's a dichotomy between selecting the winner of the Nationals (rightly an individual honour) and selecting the best team pilots for the Worlds. With the current formulaic selection process, we only have the Nationals to select from. So we are selecting on ability to fly well independently, where for the Worlds, what we need to select on is ability to stick with busy gaggles and resist the impulse to do your own thing. I love team flying at international comps - there is no better fun than flying with a partner and having two sets of eyes and two brains to improve decision making. Jim and I have worked really well here at Ostrow. There is no question that it improves outcomes if done properly. But for that you need discipline and commitment, and practice.

Adam has been playing the gaggle game at this comp and doing a fantastic job of it. If you religiously stay with a gaggle of top pilots and have a glider that can keep up with them, then you are almost guaranteed a good result, even without a team partner. The rest of the gaggle becomes your de-facto team. It is hard for us as Australian pilots, brought up with the idea that leaching is despicable, to embrace this approach. But there is no shame at it at the Worlds. If you are not doing it, you are at the very bottom of the points table, almost every day.

As G Dale said to me this competition: We're not here to show that we're better pilots than the rest. We're here to get more points than the rest. And like it or not, that's not the same thing.

Whether you agree with it or not, that's the reality of flying at a Worlds.

I'm not suggesting that we start selecting team pilots on a subjective basis or by committee vote. Every Nationals pilot needs to know that if they perform well enough they will be on the team. But I do think that there's scope for selecting the first pilot in each class by results, and the second pilot in the class based on who would work best with that first pilot.

As for pair flying in a Nationals, it remains against the rules and that's fine. The true problem is enforcement and proof of pre-arranged intent. A pilot may legitimately decide that their best tactic is to hook up with a top pilot pre-start and shadow them around the whole task, every day. Perfect training for the Worlds, in fact. If the pilot does that off their own bat then it's not team flying. But if the two pilots discuss and agree beforehand then it is. How do you distinguish the two cases from track logs alone? You can't.

I've heard the opinion that if a rule is not enforceable then it shouldn't be in the rulebook. I disagree. The rules describe how we want the competition to be conducted. We don't want cloud flying, we can't enforce it, but it's still in the rules. If someone cloud flies, and they end up winning the day, then they will know it's a hollow victory, and many of their competitors will at least suspect as much. If this forms a pattern of behaviour then their reputation and respect will rapidly diminish.

So back to Worlds selection. My proposal would be this: Keep the Nationals as an individual event. Select the top pilot based on results. And select their partner based on who would be most likely to add value to the team effort. The pilot selected on results would make a case for who should be their partner, and this would normally be accepted by the Sports Committee unless they considered it inappropriate. This system still guarantees a place to any pilot who makes the grade, but gives flexibility to ensure that we don't send a team who has never had a chance to practice together, or are fundamentally incompatible.

It's a thrill and a privilege to fly for Australia at a Worlds, and it's something I think every comp pilot should aspire to. Right now it's 4:30am and raining, but I'm still pleased to be here!

[Michael Opitz]

At 03:26 23 July 2018, Charlie Quebec wrote:

>There's a dichotomy between selecting the winner of the Nationals
(rightly an individual honour) and selecting the best team pilots for
the Worlds. With the current formulaic selection process, we only
have the Nationals to select from. So we are selecting on ability to
fly well independently, where for the Worlds, what we need to select
on is ability to stick with busy gaggles and resist the impulse to do
your own thing. I love team flying at international comps - there is
no better fun than flying with a partner and having two sets of eyes
and two brains to improve decision making. Jim and I have worked
really well here at Ostrow. There is no question that it improves
outcomes if done properly. But for that you need discipline and
commitment, and practice.

Adam has been playing the gaggle game at this comp and doing a
fantastic job of it. If you religiously stay with a gaggle of top pilots
and have a glider that can keep up with them, then you are almost
guaranteed a good result, even without a team partner. The rest of
the gaggle becomes your de-facto team. It is hard for us as
Australian pilots, brought up with the idea that leaching is
despicable, to embrace this approach. But there is no shame at it at
the Worlds. If you are not doing it, you are at the very bottom of the
points table, almost every day.

>As G Dale said to me this competition: We're not here to show that
we're better pilots than the rest. We're here to get more points than
the rest. And like it or not, that's not the same thing.

Whether you agree with it or not, that's the reality of flying at a
Worlds.

CQ,

That is exactly the point I was trying to make about the USA team
too. The reality of a WGC is that if you want to do well, you have to
possess an excellent gaggle flying skill set to put in your toolbox
to use as required - and it will be required on multiple occasions.
The current USA rules and thought process are to defuse gaggle
flying due to safety issues, and that's fine, but we have to be aware
that it may be detrimental to choosing a team that will finish well at
the WGC. The SSA charter says that the purpose of a Nationals is to
determine a National Champion. It doesn't say that the purpose is
to pick members of a team to represent the USA at a WGC. A
National Champion may be a great "lone eagle" pilot, but a lousy
gaggle flyer, so that pilot's WGC chances are greatly diminished right
from the start.

RO

[Charlie Quebec]

Perhaps you need to run a seperate selection process, where say nationals top ten flyoff as teams.

[Retting]

“Tour de France� ala gliding. After reading the info provided here, it seems the competition is to find the best pilot performing many things OTHER than maximizing
the converting of energy mother nature provides to speed across the ground, aka Sailplane Racing. Interfacing with that energy engine and watching what others can do is what draws me to the sport. I am grateful to those who advance the science over the years and marvel at what we do.
WGC has its draw on many, but leaves doubt in my mine as who is the best individual racer. The complexity shadows the talent.
Thanks for the posts.
R

[Paul T[_4_]]

You really have to wonder what skills WGC's are really testing, and
whether its worth the expense of participating these days. The modern
form of 'competition' at world level seems to have lost something - and
should it be a 'team' game or an 'individual' game?

[Michael Opitz]

At 11:12 23 July 2018, Paul T wrote:
> You really have to wonder what skills WGC's are really testing, and
>whether its worth the expense of participating these days. The
modern
>form of 'competition' at world level seems to have lost something -
and
>should it be a 'team' game or an 'individual' game?
>
That is really a topic deserving a thread of its own. This thread was
about why US teams have not done well. Your questions need to be
discussed on a world wide basis, and not just related to the US team's
performance. Good luck in getting the FAI to totally ditch what they
have been doing for years, but the discussion has to start somewhere.

As a side note, there were quite a few US pilots who qualified higher
than some of the eventual team members who went to the Poland
WGC. There were a number of very good pilots who declined the
opportunity to go for various reasons.

RO

[Paul T[_4_]]

At 12:16 23 July 2018, Michael Opitz wrote:
>At 11:12 23 July 2018, Paul T wrote:
>>
>>
>That is really a topic deserving a thread of its own. This thread was
>about why US teams have not done well. Your questions need to be
>discussed on a world wide basis, and not just related to the US team's
>performance. Good luck in getting the FAI to totally ditch what they
>have been doing for years, but the discussion has to start somewhere.
>
>As a side note, there were quite a few US pilots who qualified higher
>than some of the eventual team members who went to the Poland
>WGC. There were a number of very good pilots who declined the
>opportunity to go for various reasons.
>
>RO
>
>
>
>

Well actually the thread was about the 'relative silence' of reporting from

the US team, during the last WGC- so the thread has drifted a bit.

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 12:19:34 AM UTC-4, Tony wrote:
> Yea plenty posted on Facebook. Youve been there done that John, there's plenty of other things for the pilots and crews to do besides writing reports.

I believe John has a valid point.
The Team asks for support, and does give back in several ways.
That said, it is not unreasonable to expect a short note telling supporters what went on. At the 2 WGC events we flew in, my wife Dianne would gather input at our group breakfast, or dinner the night before, and write a report while we got ready to fly. She was also busy- manager at Gawler and manager/captain at Musbach.
She made it a priority as it should be.
Our teams need to do better at communicating with our supporters and fans. It needs to be on our centralized site so all can find it.
Well done Jim! You were very much in the game.
UH

[Juanman[_2_]]

On Monday, July 23, 2018 at 9:43:56 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> On Sunday, July 22, 2018 at 12:19:34 AM UTC-4, Tony wrote:
> > Yea plenty posted on Facebook. Youve been there done that John, there's plenty of other things for the pilots and crews to do besides writing reports.
>
> I believe John has a valid point.
> The Team asks for support, and does give back in several ways.
> That said, it is not unreasonable to expect a short note telling supporters what went on. At the 2 WGC events we flew in, my wife Dianne would gather input at our group breakfast, or dinner the night before, and write a report while we got ready to fly. She was also busy- manager at Gawler and manager/captain at Musbach.
> She made it a priority as it should be.
> Our teams need to do better at communicating with our supporters and fans.. It needs to be on our centralized site so all can find it.
> Well done Jim! You were very much in the game.
> UH

Whenever John Good crews at a Worlds he sends great reports. It can be done.. Pete Alexander has already started from Czech Republic.

[krasw]

Few points from Ostrow WGC.

1) OGN network was quite spotty, I doubt that "ground controllers" were of any use. Most of the gliders were in sight in large gaggles, no need to flarm radar. Letting polish or french teams to start 3 minutes before and then catch them with flarm, you are out of luck. They are that good.

2) Kawa flew either flarm off or in stealth mode (and got warning for not being visible on tracking). No one leeched him by using flarm.

[[email protected]]

I agree with Sebastian.
One reason I am not flying this year on Australian team.
Tom
....

[Charlie Quebec]

Imagine how whiny Kawa would be if he didn’t win.
Don’t worry Tom, you are no great loss.

[Charlie Quebec]

Imagine how whiny Kawa would be if he didn’t win.

[2G]

On Tuesday, July 24, 2018 at 7:15:29 AM UTC-7, Charlie Quebec wrote:
> Imagine how whiny Kawa would be if he didn’t win.

Congratulations, you just won the Snark of the Day award!

[Tango Eight]

On Tuesday, July 24, 2018 at 10:15:29 AM UTC-4, Charlie Quebec wrote:
> Imagine how whiny Kawa would be if he didn’t win.

Says the anonymous critic.

Evan Ludeman

[Charlie Quebec]

Its racing. Does Hamilton know where Vettel is?
Racing is always about the person who masters all the facets of the compettition, and
clearly Kawa does.
Personally, I think the GP format is a much better concept.
Sadly, for some, its no longer the 1950s.

[Justin Craig[_3_]]

At 14:02 24 July 2018, Charlie Quebec wrote:
Imagine how whiny Kawa would be if he didn't win.
Don't worry Tom, you are no great loss.


PROBABLY AS WHINY AS SEAN FIDLER

OH....Hi Sean

[[email protected]]

Hamilton knows exactly where Vettel is due to the sophisticated communications between the Team Manager and the Driver. Plus, they are on the same circuit and generally in close visual range. (Barring sightlines and mirror limitations.)

Soaring is about the only sport where visual cues are not readily interpreted due to the large distances between competitors on course (excepting gaggles), limited rear visibility and the fact that every competitor looks virtually the same.

Think sailing: Big multicolored sails, two dimensions, 360 degree visibility, etc. Soaring is differentiated by the issues listed above. Just because technology has evolved to allow for real-time tracking of other competitors does not mean it should be immediately banned.

They said the same thing when GPS was introduced. The competitors with superior map and route calculation skills were virtually unanimous in trying to keep newbies without those highly developed talents from getting the GPS advantages that essentially levelled the playing field.

The GP format is certainly superior in spectator appeal, as well as technically determining superior pilot performance, but has its own associated downsides: Close quarters flying, gaggling and possibly hazardous finishes with multiple gliders diving together at the finish and then trying to land safely.

Truly spectacular, but very hazardous with more than a dozen gliders at a time. Use the GP concept at a WGC with 150 or more aircraft at the same airfield and you would be dealing with some very hairy situations.

[Bruce Hoult]

On Tuesday, July 24, 2018 at 7:15:29 AM UTC-7, Charlie Quebec wrote:
> Imagine how whiny Kawa would be if he didn’t win.

If the guy who has stood on the top step more consistently than anyone else for a quarter of a century isn't allowed to criticise the way things are run without being accused of being "whiny" then I don't know who is.

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, July 24, 2018 at 12:09:46 PM UTC-4, Bruce Hoult wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 24, 2018 at 7:15:29 AM UTC-7, Charlie Quebec wrote:
> > Imagine how whiny Kawa would be if he didn’t win.
>
> If the guy who has stood on the top step more consistently than anyone else for a quarter of a century isn't allowed to criticise the way things are run without being accused of being "whiny" then I don't know who is.

Agreed. Much the same was said about George Moffat in the late 1960s when he "whined" about the free distance task still popular with some. Then he won two world championships. Today, the idea of allowing everyone to start immediately they are off tow to fly as far as they can in whatever direction they choose would be greeted with incredulity and derision.

Perhaps what's most unsettling is the possibility--however absurd it may seem to those intent on "leveling the playing field"--of the FAI rules evolving more towards what is in use here in the U.S.? The horror!!! :)

Chip Bearden

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Tuesday, July 24, 2018 at 9:00:06 AM UTC-7, Justin Craig wrote:
> At 14:02 24 July 2018, Charlie Quebec wrote:
> Imagine how whiny Kawa would be if he didn't win.
> Don't worry Tom, you are no great loss.
>
>
> PROBABLY AS WHINY AS SEAN FIDLER
>
> OH....Hi Sean

Civility goes a long way to keeping a functioning newsgroup! Since you mentioned him, Sean Fidler is a real world example. His is one of America's top competition pilots, young and enthusiastic (at least was) about the sport.. He is now off this newsgroup. When we host and share different views points without banal comments everyone benefits.

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, July 24, 2018 at 8:24:34 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> I agree with Sebastian.
> One reason I am not flying this year on Australian team.
> Tom
> ...

Two
UH

[Bob Whelan[_3_]]

On 7/24/2018 11:01 AM, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 24, 2018 at 9:00:06 AM UTC-7, Justin Craig wrote:
>> At 14:02 24 July 2018, Charlie Quebec wrote: Imagine how whiny Kawa would
>> be if he didn't win. Don't worry Tom, you are no great loss.
>>
>>
>> PROBABLY AS WHINY AS SEAN FIDLER
>>
>> OH....Hi Sean
>
> Civility goes a long way to keeping a functioning newsgroup!

I 100% agree.
- - - - - -

> Since you
> mentioned him, Sean Fidler is a real world example. His is one of
> America's top competition pilots, young and enthusiastic (at least was)
> about the sport. He is now off this newsgroup. When we host and share
> different views points without banal comments everyone benefits.

Now THAT's funny! I doubt I'm the only one to notice the irremovable irony
associated with this particular example. :)

Bob W.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

[Charlie Quebec]

i love the sight of whining in the morning, it sounds like victory.
LMAO

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, July 24, 2018 at 7:45:14 PM UTC-6, Charlie Quebec wrote:
> i love the sight of whining in the morning, it sounds like victory.
> LMAO

OK, THAT'S funny. I am going to steal it immediately and use it at many inappropriate moments when someone grovels for sympathy. Thanks, CQ!

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, July 24, 2018 at 9:45:14 PM UTC-4, Charlie Quebec wrote:
> i love the sight of whining in the morning, it sounds like victory.
> LMAO

My read is that he does not agree with where the sport is going and is speaking up.
He is far from the only pilot that does not think that the evolution of the sport to providing continually increased amounts of outside information is a good thing.
As a leader, if he doesn't speak out, who will?
There are known ways to deal with some of these issues:
Examples:
FLARM competition mode to reduce the tactical benefit of FLARM radar.
Delayed availability of tracking information.
Others
UH

[Tango Eight]

On Wednesday, July 25, 2018 at 9:29:39 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 24, 2018 at 9:45:14 PM UTC-4, Charlie Quebec wrote:
> > i love the sight of whining in the morning, it sounds like victory.
> > LMAO
>
> My read is that he does not agree with where the sport is going and is speaking up.
> He is far from the only pilot that does not think that the evolution of the sport to providing continually increased amounts of outside information is a good thing.
> As a leader, if he doesn't speak out, who will?
> There are known ways to deal with some of these issues:
> Examples:
> FLARM competition mode to reduce the tactical benefit of FLARM radar.
> Delayed availability of tracking information.
> Others
> UH

Well, just to keep everyone straight...

Stealth mode reduces the tactical benefits of flarm radar.

Competition mode reduces alarm sensitivity in gaggles to a level that is useful for competition.

Sebastian, or the software translation to English, confused the two as well..

I don't think whining from the podium is apt to be productive. All it did for John McEnroe is to cause people like me (not a big tennis fan) to think of him as that "very talented... incredibly whiny little snot". Did he do anything to improve the sport?

There's an IGC rules process. It moves slowly, with great pain, but probably faster than the equivalent in tennis. Sebastian, just by virtue of celebrity, has better access to this process than most. I generally agree with him, I wish him well with articulating his views in a way that results in positive change.

Side comment on flarm for all the noisy "stealth mode" detractors... it's just software. Flarm's stealth mode could be improved quite a lot. All one need do to make the "radar" display about safety and not leeching is strip all the ID (including radio ID) and limit range /delta altitude to 1km / 150m for gliders flying in same direction and say 3km / 300m for gliders on opposing or intersecting courses cruising at speed. The collision alarm functions remain completely independent, as now.

Evan Ludeman

[Steve Koerner]

> There are known ways to deal with some of these issues:
> Examples:
> FLARM competition mode to reduce the tactical benefit of FLARM radar.
> Delayed availability of tracking information.
> Others
> UH

Well UH, I and a lot of other racers have found that Flarm radar makes racing more fun. Most of us are in it for the fun of it. Let's not mess with that great feature please.

And messing with delayed tracking would reduce the fun and usefulness of crew following and race monitoring. So that's a bad idea also.

[Tango Eight]

On Wednesday, July 25, 2018 at 10:35:25 AM UTC-4, Steve Koerner wrote:
> > There are known ways to deal with some of these issues:
> > Examples:
> > FLARM competition mode to reduce the tactical benefit of FLARM radar.
> > Delayed availability of tracking information.
> > Others
> > UH
>
> Well UH, I and a lot of other racers have found that Flarm radar makes racing more fun. Most of us are in it for the fun of it. Let's not mess with that great feature please.
>
> And messing with delayed tracking would reduce the fun and usefulness of crew following and race monitoring. So that's a bad idea also.

What's fun at regional level (and I think open flarm & real time tracking are good things at the regional level) becomes problematic at WGC.

Evan

[Michael Opitz]

At 14:35 25 July 2018, Steve Koerner wrote:
>
>> There are known ways to deal with some of these issues:
>> Examples:
>> FLARM competition mode to reduce the tactical benefit of FLARM
radar.
>> Delayed availability of tracking information.
>> Others
>> UH
>
>Well UH, I and a lot of other racers have found that Flarm radar
makes
>racing more fun. Most of us are in it for the fun of it. Let's not
mess
>with that great feature please.
>
>And messing with delayed tracking would reduce the fun and
usefulness of
>crew following and race monitoring. So that's a bad idea also.
>
Steve,
You are confusing pilots who are out to win a World Championship
with others who just want to tag along for fun. Kawa and other
serious racers are out to win a WGC, and the best ones don't want
others to be able to tag along for fun, or to gain a competitive
advantage on them through this technology. They view this as
leeching off their better glider flying abilities. That's why some of
them want the FAI WGC rules changed. You are not racing under
FAI WGC rules in the USA. UH is just making some suggestions
where the FAI WGC rules could be modified to lessen the gripes that
serious racers like Kawa have with the system as it exists now.
RO

[2G]

On Wednesday, July 25, 2018 at 7:27:26 AM UTC-7, Tango Eight wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 25, 2018 at 9:29:39 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> > On Tuesday, July 24, 2018 at 9:45:14 PM UTC-4, Charlie Quebec wrote:
> > > i love the sight of whining in the morning, it sounds like victory.
> > > LMAO
> >
> > My read is that he does not agree with where the sport is going and is speaking up.
> > He is far from the only pilot that does not think that the evolution of the sport to providing continually increased amounts of outside information is a good thing.
> > As a leader, if he doesn't speak out, who will?
> > There are known ways to deal with some of these issues:
> > Examples:
> > FLARM competition mode to reduce the tactical benefit of FLARM radar.
> > Delayed availability of tracking information.
> > Others
> > UH
>
> Well, just to keep everyone straight...
>
> Stealth mode reduces the tactical benefits of flarm radar.
>
> Competition mode reduces alarm sensitivity in gaggles to a level that is useful for competition.
>
> Sebastian, or the software translation to English, confused the two as well.
>
> I don't think whining from the podium is apt to be productive. All it did for John McEnroe is to cause people like me (not a big tennis fan) to think of him as that "very talented... incredibly whiny little snot". Did he do anything to improve the sport?
>
> There's an IGC rules process. It moves slowly, with great pain, but probably faster than the equivalent in tennis. Sebastian, just by virtue of celebrity, has better access to this process than most. I generally agree with him, I wish him well with articulating his views in a way that results in positive change.
>
> Side comment on flarm for all the noisy "stealth mode" detractors... it's just software. Flarm's stealth mode could be improved quite a lot. All one need do to make the "radar" display about safety and not leeching is strip all the ID (including radio ID) and limit range /delta altitude to 1km / 150m for gliders flying in same direction and say 3km / 300m for gliders on opposing or intersecting courses cruising at speed. The collision alarm functions remain completely independent, as now.
>
> Evan Ludeman

"I don't think whining from the podium is apt to be productive. All it did for John McEnroe is to cause people like me (not a big tennis fan) to think of him as that "very talented... incredibly whiny little snot". Did he do anything to improve the sport?"

Yes, it did - ultimately they came up with video analysis for line calls (but not before McEnroe retired). This shows how bad some calls are - and gives McEnroe a chance to gloat over how right he was.

The improvement of the sport can only occur thru critical analysis of its faults, with emphasis on "critical."

Tom

[Steve Koerner]

> Steve,
> You are confusing pilots who are out to win a World Championship
> with others who just want to tag along for fun. Kawa and other
> serious racers are out to win a WGC, and the best ones don't want
> others to be able to tag along for fun, or to gain a competitive
> advantage on them through this technology. They view this as
> leeching off their better glider flying abilities. That's why some of
> them want the FAI WGC rules changed. You are not racing under
> FAI WGC rules in the USA. UH is just making some suggestions
> where the FAI WGC rules could be modified to lessen the gripes that
> serious racers like Kawa have with the system as it exists now.
> RO

RO: Your point is well taken. It's just that Hank is on the US rules committee, not the WGC rules committee -- hence my US rules perspective counterpoint. At any rate, my own view on that matter may change in a couple weeks when I win at Uvalde and have to deal with all the leeches waiting for me to start. :-)
GW

[Soartech]

On Saturday, July 21, 2018 at 8:36:46 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> They're all over Facebook...

Facebook is for giggly girls and Russians.
Real men don't look at it.

[Bruce Hoult]

On Thursday, July 26, 2018 at 7:31:57 AM UTC-7, Soartech wrote:
> On Saturday, July 21, 2018 at 8:36:46 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > They're all over Facebook...
>
> Facebook is for giggly girls and Russians.
> Real men don't look at it.

Strange, I thought vk was for both of those (especially together).

[Charlie Quebec]

Ah, the no true Scotsman fallacy.

[[email protected]]

"Facebook is for giggly girls and Russians.Â*
Real men don't look at it."

"Real men" keep up with the times and don't make excuses when the rest of the world passes them by. If you're still scratching around an obscure message board for your news, you're behind. "Man up" and start an account. You'll be surprised who you know on there and see more pictures of your grandkids. I manage the Facebook page for my club and use it weekly to promote soaring globally and locally. It draws new members every year, and allows past members to stay connected with old friends.
DT.

[[email protected]]

On Friday, July 27, 2018 at 12:47:11 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> "Facebook is for giggly girls and Russians.Â*
> Real men don't look at it."
>
> "Real men" keep up with the times and don't make excuses when the rest of the world passes them by. If you're still scratching around an obscure message board for your news, you're behind. "Man up" and start an account. You'll be surprised who you know on there and see more pictures of your grandkids. I manage the Facebook page for my club and use it weekly to promote soaring globally and locally. It draws new members every year, and allows past members to stay connected with old friends.
> DT.

Funny, you posted that on "an obscure message board".

I've been on usenet newsgroups since before it was called The Internet.

No thanks to Facebook, the time-wasting privacy-invading corporate-centralized offshoot where the users are the product and the advertisers are the clients.

I am glad that the US team is now posting stuff on their own web page
https://ussoaringteams.org/news/
even if most of the stories are just stubs that link to pages on Facebook. Those pages are mercifully set up so they're readable even if one is not logged into FB, without half the window covered with a demand that one get an account.

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

Agreed.

I only want to be "product" if I chose to be.

There is a page here with links to the current WGC contest that someone thoughtfully posted so peeps can decide on the method of info dispersal.

I am NOT glued to my smartphone or some other sites.

No, I am not a Luddite, I spent quite a few years doing field service. I had to deal with Windows 95 and up.

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

Here is the link to multiple sites for info......
https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!topic/rec.aviation.soaring/LcdvubNyy9Q

[Paul Agnew]

It's a small thing, but I must say I really appreciate the post card that arrived yesterday, signed by all of the team members, thanking me for my support. It's a nice touch.

The Junior Team sent individual thank you notes last year, too.

Well done.

Paul A.
Jupiter, FL

[[email protected]]

On Friday, July 27, 2018 at 1:20:49 PM UTC-4, wrote:
>
> I've been on usenet newsgroups since before it was called The Internet.

Ah, the ArpaNet, I remember it well. I think I got my
first Unix login around 1973 or 4. There was a lot of
controversy over whether the soc.something newsgroups
should be banned from company networks. Wild and woolly
days.

Jim Beckman

[John Godfrey (QT)[_2_]]

On Saturday, July 28, 2018 at 4:17:21 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> On Friday, July 27, 2018 at 1:20:49 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> >
> > I've been on usenet newsgroups since before it was called The Internet.
>
> Ah, the ArpaNet, I remember it well. I think I got my
> first Unix login around 1973 or 4. There was a lot of
> controversy over whether the soc.something newsgroups
> should be banned from company networks. Wild and woolly
> days.
>
> Jim Beckman

We had one of the first ArpaNet nodes at my school. Sat there on a pallet in the computer room for a while, then this guy named Al came and plugged it in...