Stall spin during aero tow? Std cirrus

[[email protected]]

Have there been stall spins during an aero tow?

Today, I had a very scary aero retrieve. From being towed to fast to-to slow. Anyways the scaries part was when, the tow plane started to climb and to slow. The indicated speed on the glider was 50 knots and decreasing. The glider kept slowing down and sinking under the tow plane into the wake. By this time the glider felt extremely sloopy and it felt like it was ready to drop into stall. Fortunately as I felt the wing wanting to drop, the tug leveld some and got back to a decent speed.

Yes I did radio the pilot askig for 20 indicated more. And I was attempting to release when I hit the wake, but the release on the standard cirrus is far, and my extention had moved from my legs.

[[email protected]]

Btw std cirrus has a cg hook

[Bob Gibbons[_2_]]

On Sun, 5 Aug 2018 19:49:46 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

>Have there been stall spins during an aero tow?
>
>Today, I had a very scary aero retrieve. From being towed to fast to-to slow. Anyways the scaries
>part was when, the tow plane started to climb and to slow. The indicated speed on the glider
> was 50 knots and decreasing. The glider kept slowing down and sinking under the tow plane
>into the wake. By this time the glider felt extremely sloopy and it felt like it was ready to drop
>into stall. Fortunately as I felt the wing wanting to drop, the tug leveld some and got back to
> a decent speed.
>
>Yes I did radio the pilot askig for 20 indicated more. And I was attempting to release when
>I hit the wake, but the release on the standard cirrus is far, and my extention had moved
>from my legs.

If I understand your situation, what you describe is not unique to the
Standard Cirrus, but is a common experience when an aerotow gets too
slow, though most often experienced with a heavy ballasted glider.

The question usually comes out something like "I can fly my glider in
free flight at x knots (e.g., 40 kts), why does it feel difficult to
control and ready to stall at x+y knots (e.g. 50 kts)?"

This topic was widely discussed on r.a.s. in the 2010-2011 time frame.
The best explaination I saw came from Gary Osaba in his post on
1/1/2011.

To summize (Gary, sorry if I am not doing justice to your post) was
that the effect was due to the combination of the downwash (not the
prop wash!) aft of the towplane wing, combined with the fact that in
most cases, since the towplane has a shorter span than the sailplane,
the sailplane's outer wings (i.e, the ailerons) lie outside this
downwash field.

The impact of the downwash on the inner portions of the sailplane wing
is that the glider must be flown at a higher angle of attack than
would be experienced in normal free flight. To compound the issue, the
outer wing ailerons are not in this flow field, but in effect are in a
higher angle of attack than the inner wing. Essentially over-twisting
the outer portions of the wing (the exact opposite of what would
normally be done to prevent tip stalling and loss of aileron control).

The solution is obvious, the towplane must fly faster. This theory
only helps explain why the sailplane feels so close to loss of control
when on a tow comfortably above its free flight stall speed.

Anyone interested can do a search on Google's r.a.s archive using a
search term "poor lateral control on slow tow" (don't use the quotes
in the search, however).

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rec.aviation.soaring/poor$20lateral$20control$20on$20slow$20tow

Hope this helps explain your experience.

Bob

[Ramy[_2_]]

I also experienced recently slow takeoffs in my fully ballasted 29 which felt very uncomfortable. The yaw string was all over the place often showing skidding. I am noticing it more in my 18m 29 than my 27, perhaps since the wing loading is higher, or due to more adverse yaw. Seems like 70 knots should be the minimum, preferably 75 knots.

Ramy

[kirk.stant]

On Monday, August 6, 2018 at 12:10:19 AM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:
> I also experienced recently slow takeoffs in my fully ballasted 29 which felt very uncomfortable. The yaw string was all over the place often showing skidding. I am noticing it more in my 18m 29 than my 27, perhaps since the wing loading is higher, or due to more adverse yaw. Seems like 70 knots should be the minimum, preferably 75 knots.
>
> Ramy

From a glider pilot (who has BTDT) and a current towpilot - the answer is simple, if not always effective: ALWAYS establish comms with the tow pilot before the tow (satisfies the FAR requirement for a pilot to pilot briefing).. If you (or the tow plane) do not have working radios, get face to face with the tuggie and TELL HIM what speed to fly - that is YOUR responsibility..

Once on tow, if the tow starts to slow down - TELL HIM ON THE RADIO TO SPEED UP! That's why you have the darn thing! Then, if the tow continues to get dangerously slow (when you can't stay above the wake) and radio or wing rocks do not solve the problem, release (assuming you are high enough for a safe PTT) and get face to face with the tow pilot when he lands and explain the problem, nicely. Especially with tow pilots that are not also glider pilots, they REALLY may not understand what is going on at the back end of the rope!

Most tow pilots really want to give you a good tow, but feedback can be rare; take the time to debrief you tow pilot if anything unusual happens on tow, and when possible brief and practice emergencies on tow - visual signals (both glider and towplane), simulated tow plane engine failure, glider dive brakes open, etc. Makes the tow more interesting than just a drag around the local area waiting for 3000' AGL to appear on the clock...

Cheers,

66

[Dan Marotta]

On 8/6/2018 7:47 AM, kirk.stant wrote:
> <Big Snip>Â* Makes the tow more interesting than just a drag around the
> local area waiting for 3000' AGL to appear on the clock...
> Cheers,
>
> 66

As an active glider pilot and retired tow pilot, it always disappointed
me as the tuggie when the glider pilot would tell me he would get off at
3,000' AGL.Â* Then we'd proceed tow through super lift only to have him
release in sink at 3,000' AGL and practically beat me back to the
ground.Â* Just one of my pet peeves because the tuggie usually gets the
blame for the poor judgement of the glider pilot.Â* Get off in lift, not
at some predetermined altitude!
--
Dan, 5J

[Dan Daly[_2_]]

On Sunday, August 5, 2018 at 10:49:48 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> Have there been stall spins during an aero tow?
>
> Today, I had a very scary aero retrieve. From being towed to fast to-to slow. Anyways the scaries part was when, the tow plane started to climb and to slow. The indicated speed on the glider was 50 knots and decreasing. The glider kept slowing down and sinking under the tow plane into the wake. By this time the glider felt extremely sloopy and it felt like it was ready to drop into stall. Fortunately as I felt the wing wanting to drop, the tug leveld some and got back to a decent speed.
>
> Yes I did radio the pilot askig for 20 indicated more. And I was attempting to release when I hit the wake, but the release on the standard cirrus is far, and my extention had moved from my legs.

I had to release a couple of times last year; put the first down to new tow pilot. Second... hmmm. When the Pawnee did its annual, transponder (actually encoder) failed, and leak in pitot/static system and a subtly bent pitot tube were found to be responsible. The towplane speed looked good, mine, not so much in a Std class glider with the stick on the back stop, still sinking. When in doubt, release and debrief; multiple times, find what the problem is (I had checked my pitot/static system for leaks too). One problem inexperienced tow pilots cause without thinking is pulling up in lift to use the energy - while the glider is still in the sink surrounding...

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

I think the worst I have had was in a contest (upstate NY), ASW-20, maybe 3/4 load of water, summer, weak Citabria towplane.
I felt like I was just barely hanging on. Yes, I radioed the tug but IIRC he had a radio issue that was fine on the ground.

[JS[_5_]]

On Monday, August 6, 2018 at 8:00:52 AM UTC-7, Dan Daly wrote:
> On Sunday, August 5, 2018 at 10:49:48 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > Have there been stall spins during an aero tow?
> >
> > Today, I had a very scary aero retrieve. From being towed to fast to-to slow. Anyways the scaries part was when, the tow plane started to climb and to slow. The indicated speed on the glider was 50 knots and decreasing. The glider kept slowing down and sinking under the tow plane into the wake. By this time the glider felt extremely sloopy and it felt like it was ready to drop into stall. Fortunately as I felt the wing wanting to drop, the tug leveld some and got back to a decent speed.
> >
> > Yes I did radio the pilot askig for 20 indicated more. And I was attempting to release when I hit the wake, but the release on the standard cirrus is far, and my extention had moved from my legs.
>
> I had to release a couple of times last year; put the first down to new tow pilot. Second... hmmm. When the Pawnee did its annual, transponder (actually encoder) failed, and leak in pitot/static system and a subtly bent pitot tube were found to be responsible. The towplane speed looked good, mine, not so much in a Std class glider with the stick on the back stop, still sinking. When in doubt, release and debrief; multiple times, find what the problem is (I had checked my pitot/static system for leaks too). One problem inexperienced tow pilots cause without thinking is pulling up in lift to use the energy - while the glider is still in the sink surrounding...

A simple improvement, if not a fix:
If it feels sloppy on tow, put in another notch of positive flaps.
Jim

[Dan Daly[_2_]]

On Monday, August 6, 2018 at 11:20:51 AM UTC-4, JS wrote:
> On Monday, August 6, 2018 at 8:00:52 AM UTC-7, Dan Daly wrote:
> > On Sunday, August 5, 2018 at 10:49:48 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > > Have there been stall spins during an aero tow?
> > >
> > > Today, I had a very scary aero retrieve. From being towed to fast to-to slow. Anyways the scaries part was when, the tow plane started to climb and to slow. The indicated speed on the glider was 50 knots and decreasing. The glider kept slowing down and sinking under the tow plane into the wake.. By this time the glider felt extremely sloopy and it felt like it was ready to drop into stall. Fortunately as I felt the wing wanting to drop, the tug leveld some and got back to a decent speed.
> > >
> > > Yes I did radio the pilot askig for 20 indicated more. And I was attempting to release when I hit the wake, but the release on the standard cirrus is far, and my extention had moved from my legs.
> >
> > I had to release a couple of times last year; put the first down to new tow pilot. Second... hmmm. When the Pawnee did its annual, transponder (actually encoder) failed, and leak in pitot/static system and a subtly bent pitot tube were found to be responsible. The towplane speed looked good, mine, not so much in a Std class glider with the stick on the back stop, still sinking. When in doubt, release and debrief; multiple times, find what the problem is (I had checked my pitot/static system for leaks too). One problem inexperienced tow pilots cause without thinking is pulling up in lift to use the energy - while the glider is still in the sink surrounding...
>
> A simple improvement, if not a fix:
> If it feels sloppy on tow, put in another notch of positive flaps.
> Jim

Std Cirrus has no flaps. My Std Class glider has no flaps. Agree flaps work - if you have them.

[Tango Eight]

On Monday, August 6, 2018 at 11:37:11 AM UTC-4, Dan Daly wrote:
> On Monday, August 6, 2018 at 11:20:51 AM UTC-4, JS wrote:
> > On Monday, August 6, 2018 at 8:00:52 AM UTC-7, Dan Daly wrote:
> > > On Sunday, August 5, 2018 at 10:49:48 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > > > Have there been stall spins during an aero tow?
> > > >
> > > > Today, I had a very scary aero retrieve. From being towed to fast to-to slow. Anyways the scaries part was when, the tow plane started to climb and to slow. The indicated speed on the glider was 50 knots and decreasing. The glider kept slowing down and sinking under the tow plane into the wake. By this time the glider felt extremely sloopy and it felt like it was ready to drop into stall. Fortunately as I felt the wing wanting to drop, the tug leveld some and got back to a decent speed.
> > > >
> > > > Yes I did radio the pilot askig for 20 indicated more. And I was attempting to release when I hit the wake, but the release on the standard cirrus is far, and my extention had moved from my legs.
> > >
> > > I had to release a couple of times last year; put the first down to new tow pilot. Second... hmmm. When the Pawnee did its annual, transponder (actually encoder) failed, and leak in pitot/static system and a subtly bent pitot tube were found to be responsible. The towplane speed looked good, mine, not so much in a Std class glider with the stick on the back stop, still sinking. When in doubt, release and debrief; multiple times, find what the problem is (I had checked my pitot/static system for leaks too). One problem inexperienced tow pilots cause without thinking is pulling up in lift to use the energy - while the glider is still in the sink surrounding...
> >
> > A simple improvement, if not a fix:
> > If it feels sloppy on tow, put in another notch of positive flaps.
> > Jim
>
> Std Cirrus has no flaps. My Std Class glider has no flaps. Agree flaps work - if you have them.

That was the joke...

Pitch a little slower Jim... we want to be sporting, after all :-).

T8

[[email protected]]

I agree with Ramy, a fully laden ASG 29 is very intolerant of low tow speeds. As these wonderful gliders begin to fall into the hands les experienced, pilots it needs to become common knowledge that a heavy ASG 29 requires an extra 10 knots of airspeed from the tow plane. I have , and have seen two highly experienced friends struggle with control on takeoff in their 29’s.
We all had thermaling flaps deployed. This is especially true at high density altitudes. 80 knots works nicely. The tow pilot needs to be coached to hold the tow plane in ground effect until that speed is achieved. That can be unsettling to them, especially on hot days at high altitude, so the communication needs to be explicit. As others have said, some Pawnees have inaccurate pneumatics which can lead to pushback from the tow pilot. Any Standard class ship,when heavy, needs that same consideration.
Dale Bush

[Chris Rowland[_2_]]

At 13:47 06 August 2018, kirk.stant wrote:
>On Monday, August 6, 2018 at 12:10:19 AM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:
>> I also experienced recently slow takeoffs in my fully ballasted 29
>which=
> felt very uncomfortable. The yaw string was all over the place often
>showi=
>ng skidding. I am noticing it more in my 18m 29 than my 27, perhaps since
>t=
>he wing loading is higher, or due to more adverse yaw. Seems like 70
knots
>=
>should be the minimum, preferably 75 knots.=20
>>=20
>> Ramy
>
>From a glider pilot (who has BTDT) and a current towpilot - the answer is
>s=
>imple, if not always effective: ALWAYS establish comms with the tow pilot
>b=
>efore the tow (satisfies the FAR requirement for a pilot to pilot
>briefing)=
>.. If you (or the tow plane) do not have working radios, get face to
face
>w=
>ith the tuggie and TELL HIM what speed to fly - that is YOUR
>responsibility=
>..
>
>Once on tow, if the tow starts to slow down - TELL HIM ON THE RADIO TO
>SPEE=
>D UP! That's why you have the darn thing! Then, if the tow continues to
>get=
> dangerously slow (when you can't stay above the wake) and radio or wing
>ro=
>cks do not solve the problem, release (assuming you are high enough for a
>s=
>afe PTT) and get face to face with the tow pilot when he lands and
explain
>=
>the problem, nicely. Especially with tow pilots that are not also glider
>pi=
>lots, they REALLY may not understand what is going on at the back end of
>th=
>e rope!
>
>Most tow pilots really want to give you a good tow, but feedback can be
>rar=
>e; take the time to debrief you tow pilot if anything unusual happens on
>to=
>w, and when possible brief and practice emergencies on tow - visual
>signals=
> (both glider and towplane), simulated tow plane engine failure, glider
>div=
>e brakes open, etc. Makes the tow more interesting than just a drag
>around=
> the local area waiting for 3000' AGL to appear on the clock...

Agree entirely about this. Talk to the tug pilot before you start.

I'm a new tuggie but have been gliding for 50 years. I want to give people
good tows. But if you don't let me know what you want then I won't feel
that bad if you don't get it.

Talking on the way up is all very well but we have to coordinate with the
tower before take off and it may take a while before I change back to the
gliding frequency.

It's sad how many people think that there's no need to talk to the tuggie.

Chris

[JS[_5_]]

Sorry. At least it was after references to ASW20 and ASG29. The trick works in both.
Often laugh at myself for trying to grab the flap handle in a Duo. Doesn't work any better than it would in a Cirrus, except to get a second person laughing.
Jim

That was the joke...
Pitch a little slower Jim... we want to be sporting, after all :-).
T8

> A simple improvement, if not a fix:
> If it feels sloppy on tow, put in another notch of positive flaps.
> Jim

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

So, your empty hand can mark the map spot where you are.........since it isn't needed for flaps.....;-)

No, not relevant in this thread.
Funny, in my eyes, slow tow sucks in anything.

Yes, I fly a wide range of sailplanes.

[Andrzej Kobus]

On Monday, August 6, 2018 at 1:48:53 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> I agree with Ramy, a fully laden ASG 29 is very intolerant of low tow speeds. As these wonderful gliders begin to fall into the hands les experienced, pilots it needs to become common knowledge that a heavy ASG 29 requires an extra 10 knots of airspeed from the tow plane. I have , and have seen two highly experienced friends struggle with control on takeoff in their 29’s.
> We all had thermaling flaps deployed. This is especially true at high density altitudes. 80 knots works nicely. The tow pilot needs to be coached to hold the tow plane in ground effect until that speed is achieved. That can be unsettling to them, especially on hot days at high altitude, so the communication needs to be explicit. As others have said, some Pawnees have inaccurate pneumatics which can lead to pushback from the tow pilot. Any Standard class ship,when heavy, needs that same consideration.
> Dale Bush

Yes, this was exactly my experience in the 29. I almost stalled on tow. The same year I bought a self-launcher and I never had that problem again.

[Ramy[_2_]]

It goes without saying that one must communicate their desired tow speed with the tow pilot (especially when faster than normal) and request more speed during the tow if necessary
That said, it is easier said than done at the high density altitude in the west, especially with non powerful tow planes. Releasing from tow is often not a good option when you just lifted off at the far end of the runway fully ballasted.

Ramy

[Jonathon May]

At 02:28 07 August 2018, Ramy wrote:
>It goes without saying that one must communicate their desired tow speed
>with the tow pilot (especially when faster than normal) and request more
>speed during the tow if necessary
>That said, it is easier said than done at the high density altitude in
the
>west, especially with non powerful tow planes. Releasing from tow is
often
>not a good option when you just lifted off at the far end of the runway
>fully ballasted.
>
>Ramy
>
Hi sorry for the thread creep
I have just Changed to a Ventus 2c after 1500 without flaps.
As briefed I roll in negative flap and change to +2 when I am sure that I
have aileron control.The tug pilot knows all this and tows me at 70+knts.
Am I now at the flap limit for positive flaps?
Last flight I was happy up to 70 but above I chose to go to 0.
Jon

[Steve Koerner]

This subject comes up every few years on RAS and that's a very good thing. Long ago there was a death on tow with a heavily watered ship that I'm pretty sure was caused by this.

I have already posted a couple times in the past about my own near death experiences I have had dangling from a slow towplane at a remarkably low stalled tow position while slamming the stick back and forth against the stops in Ventus 1 and in ASW27. When this is happening at a very low altitude (as it was), then releasing is not an option.

Several have pointed up the necessity of communicating with the tow pilot. I think it preferable to communicate in writing. Except at contests, I always make sure that the tow pilot has been handed my written towing instruction when I have water ballast. Here's a link to my little towing instruction sheet: https://goo.gl/PwVu71

[Dan Marotta]

Releasing is always an option.Â* I would rather land straight ahead,
maneuvering just enough to avoid any hard things on the ground than
stalling on tow.Â* That will kill you.Â* Taking off the wings between two
cars or tractors or whatever will dissipate most of the energy of the
crash and the insurance company can buy you a new glider. Not to mention
you might also kill the tuggie by hanging on in a losing situation.

On 8/7/2018 8:45 AM, Steve Koerner wrote:
> This subject comes up every few years on RAS and that's a very good thing. Long ago there was a death on tow with a heavily watered ship that I'm pretty sure was caused by this.
>
> I have already posted a couple times in the past about my own near death experiences I have had dangling from a slow towplane at a remarkably low stalled tow position while slamming the stick back and forth against the stops in Ventus 1 and in ASW27. When this is happening at a very low altitude (as it was), then releasing is not an option.
>
> Several have pointed up the necessity of communicating with the tow pilot. I think it preferable to communicate in writing. Except at contests, I always make sure that the tow pilot has been handed my written towing instruction when I have water ballast. Here's a link to my little towing instruction sheet: https://goo.gl/PwVu71
>
>

--
Dan, 5J

[Steve Koerner]

On Tuesday, August 7, 2018 at 7:52:39 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Releasing is always an option.Â* I would rather land straight ahead,
> maneuvering just enough to avoid any hard things on the ground than
> stalling on tow.Â* That will kill you.Â* Taking off the wings between two
> cars or tractors or whatever will dissipate most of the energy of the
> crash and the insurance company can buy you a new glider. Not to mention
> you might also kill the tuggie by hanging on in a losing situation.
>
> On 8/7/2018 8:45 AM, Steve Koerner wrote:
> > This subject comes up every few years on RAS and that's a very good thing. Long ago there was a death on tow with a heavily watered ship that I'm pretty sure was caused by this.
> >
> > I have already posted a couple times in the past about my own near death experiences I have had dangling from a slow towplane at a remarkably low stalled tow position while slamming the stick back and forth against the stops in Ventus 1 and in ASW27. When this is happening at a very low altitude (as it was), then releasing is not an option.
> >
> > Several have pointed up the necessity of communicating with the tow pilot. I think it preferable to communicate in writing. Except at contests, I always make sure that the tow pilot has been handed my written towing instruction when I have water ballast. Here's a link to my little towing instruction sheet: https://goo.gl/PwVu71
> >
> >
>
> --
> Dan, 5J

Dan: You're not fully understanding the situation. If your nose is pointed at the sky and you are at a very low altitude, then you will die or be seriously injured if you pull the release. So this discussion is about trying to make sure this doesn't happen to others. I had to figure this out for myself back before there was RAS. If you have altitude to recover, then of course, pull the release and land. Better yet, make sure your tow pilot knows to keep the speed up.

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Tuesday, August 7, 2018 at 7:45:24 AM UTC-7, Steve Koerner wrote:
> This subject comes up every few years on RAS and that's a very good thing.. Long ago there was a death on tow with a heavily watered ship that I'm pretty sure was caused by this.
>
> I have already posted a couple times in the past about my own near death experiences I have had dangling from a slow towplane at a remarkably low stalled tow position while slamming the stick back and forth against the stops in Ventus 1 and in ASW27. When this is happening at a very low altitude (as it was), then releasing is not an option.
>
> Several have pointed up the necessity of communicating with the tow pilot.. I think it preferable to communicate in writing. Except at contests, I always make sure that the tow pilot has been handed my written towing instruction when I have water ballast. Here's a link to my little towing instruction sheet: https://goo.gl/PwVu71

Where to start. Believe it or not some places do not have comms with the tow plane other than hand signals. I believe the first place is to properly train tow pilots. A couple years ago at Nephi I had a tug where the pilot basically did a short field takeoff and started to climb! I was screaming at him to stay in ground effect as I had not even lifted off!! On the same tow I got into an argument with the pilot when I asked for another ten knots! "do you really want me to add ten knots".."Yes, for fu@ksakes". Years ago at my home airport we had a spat of extremely poorly trained tow pilots, fortunately now all of them are very well trained. As for written instructions, great idea, but I have yet to have a tow pilot actually read or follow the tow chit, other where I wanted to be released. ON my first tow out of Truckee, I filled out their tow chit and since I had not flown there before I checked the box for no thermaling on tow. I have about 1700 hours of glider time, I have never seen a tow plane bank it up 50 degrees to thermal at 800 feet, we played a game of crack the whip until I could dig the boom mike out from under my arm pit.

[Dan Marotta]

Steve, you're right.Â* I was considering enough altitude to stuff the
nose down and recover.

On 8/7/2018 9:08 AM, Steve Koerner wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 7, 2018 at 7:52:39 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> Releasing is always an option.Â* I would rather land straight ahead,
>> maneuvering just enough to avoid any hard things on the ground than
>> stalling on tow.Â* That will kill you.Â* Taking off the wings between two
>> cars or tractors or whatever will dissipate most of the energy of the
>> crash and the insurance company can buy you a new glider. Not to mention
>> you might also kill the tuggie by hanging on in a losing situation.
>>
>> On 8/7/2018 8:45 AM, Steve Koerner wrote:
>>> This subject comes up every few years on RAS and that's a very good thing. Long ago there was a death on tow with a heavily watered ship that I'm pretty sure was caused by this.
>>>
>>> I have already posted a couple times in the past about my own near death experiences I have had dangling from a slow towplane at a remarkably low stalled tow position while slamming the stick back and forth against the stops in Ventus 1 and in ASW27. When this is happening at a very low altitude (as it was), then releasing is not an option.
>>>
>>> Several have pointed up the necessity of communicating with the tow pilot. I think it preferable to communicate in writing. Except at contests, I always make sure that the tow pilot has been handed my written towing instruction when I have water ballast. Here's a link to my little towing instruction sheet: https://goo.gl/PwVu71
>>>
>>>
>> --
>> Dan, 5J
> Dan: You're not fully understanding the situation. If your nose is pointed at the sky and you are at a very low altitude, then you will die or be seriously injured if you pull the release. So this discussion is about trying to make sure this doesn't happen to others. I had to figure this out for myself back before there was RAS. If you have altitude to recover, then of course, pull the release and land. Better yet, make sure your tow pilot knows to keep the speed up.

--
Dan, 5J

[Dave Nadler]

On Sunday, August 5, 2018 at 10:49:48 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> Have there been stall spins during an aero tow?

Yes, and fatalities.
Safety brief from minute 14 of this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIZWzvMu1dM&index=19&t=1496s&list=UU7ltBg4SXTSR0IGIvNSG84Q

I think I forgot in this brief:
If the tow-plane starts to kite up as you are still rolling or just off,
RELEASE IMMEDIATELY.

Be safe out there,
Best Regards, Dave

[Iain Baker[_2_]]

At 02:49 06 August 2018, wrote:
>Have there been stall spins during an aero tow?
>

An internet search for JA21KAJA2376 should find a Japan Transport
Safety Board report of a 2012 accident where an SF25C was towing a
Discus and the combination ditched into the river next to the airfield.
The report concludes that the Discus stalled on tow.

[Tom BravoMike]

How come nobody mentions positive faps in this discussion? Am I missing sth? Are they useless in situations when the tug is too slow? If so, why? Please illuminate me.

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

A bit helps, a lot of flaps also adds drag, not exactly what you want......so, balancing act.

[Dan Daly[_2_]]

On Tuesday, August 7, 2018 at 7:16:30 PM UTC-4, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> A bit helps, a lot of flaps also adds drag, not exactly what you want......so, balancing act.

@tombravomike. Many gliders have no flaps. They are great - if you have them. Many do not. The Std Cirrus - which this thread started with - does not.

[Dave Nadler]

On Tuesday, August 7, 2018 at 7:01:38 PM UTC-4, Tom BravoMike wrote:
> How come nobody mentions positive faps in this discussion?
> Am I missing sth? Are they useless in situations when the tug is too slow?
> If so, why? Please illuminate me.

Flaps add a lot of drag. The first time I had a stall on tow,
I pulled down landing flaps, which recovered the stall and
almost put the towplane in the trees. I eased off the flap
and somehow he sped up without hitting anything.
Please do not try this at home.

Be safe out there,
Best Regards, Dave

PS: I think flaps do have the benefit of improving the lift
distribution on tow, which slightly compensates for the bad effects.

[Tom BravoMike]

On Tuesday, August 7, 2018 at 8:42:40 PM UTC-4, Dave Nadler wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 7, 2018 at 7:01:38 PM UTC-4, Tom BravoMike wrote:
> > How come nobody mentions positive faps in this discussion?
> > Am I missing sth? Are they useless in situations when the tug is too slow?
> > If so, why? Please illuminate me.
>
> Flaps add a lot of drag. The first time I had a stall on tow,
> I pulled down landing flaps, which recovered the stall and
> almost put the towplane in the trees. I eased off the flap
> and somehow he sped up without hitting anything.
> Please do not try this at home.
>
> Be safe out there,
> Best Regards, Dave
>
> PS: I think flaps do have the benefit of improving the lift
> distribution on tow, which slightly compensates for the bad effects.

OK, so we are talking here 'nothing or everything'. Landing flaps are on the extreme end. The Ventus manual tells you to go from '0' to '+1' on take off if necessary (eg. with water). And yes, it does depend how much extra power the tow plane has. The golden middle rule applies...

[[email protected]]

Thanks for all the comments and personal stories guys. it really helped. The safety video from a competition that was posted here was very helpful it explained a lot!

[Chris Rowland[_2_]]

At 00:42 08 August 2018, Dave Nadler wrote:
>On Tuesday, August 7, 2018 at 7:01:38 PM UTC-4, Tom BravoMike wrote:
>> How come nobody mentions positive faps in this discussion?
>> Am I missing sth? Are they useless in situations when the tug is too
>slow?
>> If so, why? Please illuminate me.
>
>Flaps add a lot of drag. The first time I had a stall on tow,
>I pulled down landing flaps, which recovered the stall and
>almost put the towplane in the trees. I eased off the flap
>and somehow he sped up without hitting anything.

Bear in mind that the tug pilot also has a release and if you do something
that endangers him he's perfectly entitled to use it.

[[email protected]]

The simple facts are that heavily loaded modern gliders need a ****load more speed than older light wingloading gliders.
Some tug pilots seem to not know the difference.
When I am in the tug I reckon I can feel when the glider needs speed but after many tows from the glider end I can see that not all tug pilots can see this.
Brief your tuggie or potentially die! I have lost one friend and seen some crappy launches at comps.
The JS1C at max weight needs a pawnee to fly at 75kts for the glider to feel good, my ASG29 needs at least 70kts, club tuggies might be more used to
Blaniks or the like that will climb OK at 55-60. Use the flaps as instructed by the flight manual.

[PGS]

On Tuesday, August 7, 2018 at 10:45:24 AM UTC-4, Steve Koerner wrote:
> This subject comes up every few years on RAS and that's a very good thing.. Long ago there was a death on tow with a heavily watered ship that I'm pretty sure was caused by this.
>
> I have already posted a couple times in the past about my own near death experiences I have had dangling from a slow towplane at a remarkably low stalled tow position while slamming the stick back and forth against the stops in Ventus 1 and in ASW27. When this is happening at a very low altitude (as it was), then releasing is not an option.
>
> Several have pointed up the necessity of communicating with the tow pilot.. I think it preferable to communicate in writing. Except at contests, I always make sure that the tow pilot has been handed my written towing instruction when I have water ballast. Here's a link to my little towing instruction sheet: https://goo.gl/PwVu71

Steve, you should not assume the tow planes airspeed indicator is calibrated or accurate. You might consider modifying your note to say "minimum" or "at least" and once safely on tow ask to slow down if need be.

[[email protected]]

My breifing usually includes " Have you towed ballasted ships before" IF SO, please tow me the same as (insert here a comparable speed and weighted ship here), the tow pilot will understand that relationship alot better than just a speed as every tow plane I have towed behind or flown is alittle different.

CH

[[email protected]]

Make sure when your briefing the tuggie that you speaking the same language ie. KNOTS or MPH. There a fair difference between 60 mph and 60 knots. If the tuggie isnt on the same page with you, you might end up in the sagebrush at the end of the runway.

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, August 8, 2018 at 1:18:26 PM UTC+1, PGS wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 7, 2018 at 10:45:24 AM UTC-4, Steve Koerner wrote:
> > This subject comes up every few years on RAS and that's a very good thing. Long ago there was a death on tow with a heavily watered ship that I'm pretty sure was caused by this.
> >
> > I have already posted a couple times in the past about my own near death experiences I have had dangling from a slow towplane at a remarkably low stalled tow position while slamming the stick back and forth against the stops in Ventus 1 and in ASW27. When this is happening at a very low altitude (as it was), then releasing is not an option.
> >
> > Several have pointed up the necessity of communicating with the tow pilot. I think it preferable to communicate in writing. Except at contests, I always make sure that the tow pilot has been handed my written towing instruction when I have water ballast. Here's a link to my little towing instruction sheet: https://goo.gl/PwVu71
>
> Steve, you should not assume the tow planes airspeed indicator is calibrated or accurate. You might consider modifying your note to say "minimum" or "at least" and once safely on tow ask to slow down if need be.

Even if the tug ASI is properly calibrated by ground testing it may not read accurately in flight because of very poor static inputs or the use of cockpit static. As an ex JS1c 21m owner I got into the habit of not only telling tow pilots the speed I wanted (absolute minimum of 70 knots as read by the glider ASI) but also exchanging ASI readings with them on tow. Every Pawnees I was towed by had an ASI that over-read by 5-7 knots compared to my reading. The same was found using other types of glider behind Pawnees. The Eurofox tugs that are getting popular in the UK has similar errors.

I think that this may be a significant safety issue.

Although perhaps not widely used in the US, Chipmunks and Robins seemed to me to have much more accurate ASI systems.

[Tony[_5_]]

I tell our newer towpilots that with the big gliders and gliders with water, it is almost impossible to tow them too fast and way better to be on the fast side than the slow side.

This of course is the opposite from towing slow speed trainers which are much happier slower than faster. These are what our towpilots usually tow, so when the Nimbus 3 full of water is pulled out to the line, they need to shift from a slow bias to a fast bias.

[AS]

On Tuesday, August 7, 2018 at 1:45:11 PM UTC-4, Iain Baker wrote:
> At 02:49 06 August 2018, wrote:
> >Have there been stall spins during an aero tow?
> >
>
> An internet search for JA21KAJA2376 should find a Japan Transport
> Safety Board report of a 2012 accident where an SF25C was towing a
> Discus and the combination ditched into the river next to the airfield.
> The report concludes that the Discus stalled on tow.

Interesting report - here is the direct link:
http://www.mlit.go.jp/jtsb/eng-air_report/JA21KAJA2376.pdf

Uli
'AS'

[Charlie Quebec]

A very comprehensive report, and a fair conclusion.

[Dave Nadler]

On Tuesday, August 7, 2018 at 9:34:10 PM UTC-4, Tom BravoMike wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 7, 2018 at 8:42:40 PM UTC-4, Dave Nadler wrote:
> > On Tuesday, August 7, 2018 at 7:01:38 PM UTC-4, Tom BravoMike wrote:
> > > How come nobody mentions positive faps in this discussion?
> > > Am I missing sth? Are they useless in situations when the tug is too slow?
> > > If so, why? Please illuminate me.
> >
> > Flaps add a lot of drag. The first time I had a stall on tow,
> > I pulled down landing flaps, which recovered the stall and
> > almost put the towplane in the trees. I eased off the flap
> > and somehow he sped up without hitting anything.
> > Please do not try this at home.
> >
> > Be safe out there,
> > Best Regards, Dave
> >
> > PS: I think flaps do have the benefit of improving the lift
> > distribution on tow, which slightly compensates for the bad effects.
>
> OK, so we are talking here 'nothing or everything'. Landing flaps are
> on the extreme end. The Ventus manual tells you to go from '0' to '+1'
> on take off if necessary (eg. with water). And yes, it does depend how
> much extra power the tow plane has. The golden middle rule applies...

I was already at flaps +2 due to inadequate tow speed, L is next step...
Certainly not "all or nothing"...

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Wednesday, August 8, 2018 at 5:18:26 AM UTC-7, PGS wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 7, 2018 at 10:45:24 AM UTC-4, Steve Koerner wrote:
> > This subject comes up every few years on RAS and that's a very good thing. Long ago there was a death on tow with a heavily watered ship that I'm pretty sure was caused by this.
> >
> > I have already posted a couple times in the past about my own near death experiences I have had dangling from a slow towplane at a remarkably low stalled tow position while slamming the stick back and forth against the stops in Ventus 1 and in ASW27. When this is happening at a very low altitude (as it was), then releasing is not an option.
> >
> > Several have pointed up the necessity of communicating with the tow pilot. I think it preferable to communicate in writing. Except at contests, I always make sure that the tow pilot has been handed my written towing instruction when I have water ballast. Here's a link to my little towing instruction sheet: https://goo.gl/PwVu71
>
> Steve, you should not assume the tow planes airspeed indicator is calibrated or accurate. You might consider modifying your note to say "minimum" or "at least" and once safely on tow ask to slow down if need be.

Another way to calibrate the speed, tell the tug to tow you as he would tow the operation's SGS 2-32.

[Dave Nadler]

On Wednesday, August 8, 2018 at 10:12:15 AM UTC-4, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> Another way to calibrate the speed, tell the tug to tow you as he
> would tow the operation's SGS 2-32.

Just last week somebody reminded me of a 2-32 stall-spin off tow
near here (several decades ago).

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

That is why all the operators will make sure the tow pilots know it is important tow the 2-32 at the correct speed. “Tow me at the same speed as you tow the 2-32�. If anything you will ask the tug to slow down

[kirk.stant]

On Wednesday, August 8, 2018 at 2:42:39 PM UTC-5, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> That is why all the operators will make sure the tow pilots know it is important tow the 2-32 at the correct speed. “Tow me at the same speed as you tow the 2-32�. If anything you will ask the tug to slow down

Not too many 2-32s outside the USA (too bad - love that glider). As far as Pawnees, expect (again, in the US) it to have an airspeed indicator in MPH (or perhaps a dual-scale ASI), so give him your tow speed in MPH, regardless of what you have in your glider. Better for him to tow you in MPH numbers on a Knots ASI than the reverse!

And if the Pawnee about to tow you in your 11 psf waterlogged glass ship has one notch of flaps down - don't hook up until he brings them up! That's only needed for 1-26s and K-13s (lets a Pawnee tow nicely at 65-70 mph) and a possible sign that the tuggie is not quite on the ball...

Pawnee statics = cockpit static, usually. Airspeed a bit lower and altitude a bit higher in my experience, but not by much (5 mph / 100 ft)

Kirk

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

General comment, not totally related to this post.........
Most of our tug pilots are also glider pilots, tug pilot is sorta secondary.
We usually fly dry, but if we fly wet, we (glider pilot) instruct wing runner to flag tuggie that we are wet and need more speed.
I have flown out of our field heavy (ASW-20 a and c, thus 9lbs......) before with no issues.
Don't know if our field has EVER had a 2-32, I have flown a lot of ships, a 2-32 is not on the list.

Yes, a wee bit fast is better than a wee bit slow. I am a light pilot and have done XC tows from home to HHSC in a 1-26 (something like 120 air miles), yep, things got a wee bit too fast, but we were racing November weather to destination.

If you bend/break something, have a good reason when the FAA comes calling.
Hopefully you are around to chat with them.
Radios can fail or get stepped on.

Flapped ships have some options, but not unlimited.
Nonflapped have few options.
Time for go/no go is limited. When in doubt, bail out.

[GliderCZ]

>
> Hi sorry for the thread creep
> I have just Changed to a Ventus 2c after 1500 without flaps.
> As briefed I roll in negative flap and change to +2 when I am sure that I
> have aileron control.The tug pilot knows all this and tows me at 70+knts.
> Am I now at the flap limit for positive flaps?
> Last flight I was happy up to 70 but above I chose to go to 0.
> Jon

Limit for any positive flap setting on V2C is 86 knots, Vfe per flight manual. Typical takeoff starts at -1, going to 0 as you get aileron authority, then +1 as you approach takeoff and throughout the tow. That's always worked for me. Takeoff and tow at+2 always required too much forward stick for me. YMMV. I think you'll enjoy the V2C. Great xc ship!

[Jonathon May[_2_]]

At 04:17 09 August 2018, GliderCZ wrote:
>>
>> Hi sorry for the thread creep
>> I have just Changed to a Ventus 2c after 1500 without flaps.
>> As briefed I roll in negative flap and change to +2 when I am
sure that I
>> have aileron control.The tug pilot knows all this and tows me at
70+knts.
>> Am I now at the flap limit for positive flaps?
>> Last flight I was happy up to 70 but above I chose to go to 0.
>> Jon
>
>Limit for any positive flap setting on V2C is 86 knots, Vfe per flight
>manu=
>al. Typical takeoff starts at -1, going to 0 as you get aileron
authority,
>=
>then +1 as you approach takeoff and throughout the tow. That's
always
>worke=
>d for me. Takeoff and tow at+2 always required too much forward
stick for
>m=
>e. YMMV. I think you'll enjoy the V2C. Great xc ship!
>
>Thanks that helps.

[FranCP]

El domingo, 5 de agosto de 2018, 22:49:48 (UTC-4), escribió:
> Have there been stall spins during an aero tow?
>
> Today, I had a very scary aero retrieve. From being towed to fast to-to slow. Anyways the scaries part was when, the tow plane started to climb and to slow. The indicated speed on the glider was 50 knots and decreasing. The glider kept slowing down and sinking under the tow plane into the wake. By this time the glider felt extremely sloopy and it felt like it was ready to drop into stall. Fortunately as I felt the wing wanting to drop, the tug leveld some and got back to a decent speed.
>
> Yes I did radio the pilot askig for 20 indicated more. And I was attempting to release when I hit the wake, but the release on the standard cirrus is far, and my extention had moved from my legs.

I did several hours in my club's std cirry, and lot's of scarry tows on heavy turbulence... It was a Grob std cirrus, all flying tailplane, no winglets and CG hook. It was tail heavy due to a tail boom repair. Not the best combination at all, and get's worse if you have a tow at 2pm midsummer 35°C here in the Andes.

Remember that the glider stabilizes at different attitudes during tow because of the traction of the rope, so probably stall speed is different (maybe higher?) than in free flight. In this glider was obvious that the eccentricity of the CG hook affected heavily. The glider started to felt "uncomfortable" at 90 km/h, like trying to drop a wing.
Also, during aerotow in turbulence we experienced horizontal tail stalls if the towplane went below 100 km/h... full forward stick while the glider still pitching up and a buzz on the stick, reeaaally scary the first times. It recovered control if you centered a little the stick, which in this glider = lowering tail's AoA. Then we got used to go softer on the movements, even if you didn't follow the plane exactly, so no heavy changes on the tail's AoA are induced.
Of course, the glider flew much better when we started to add nose ballast to get the CG out of the back-limit region (it always flew in between the correct limits although).

Anyways, it was by far my favorite so far, a real joy to fly in the ridge. Still has a huge place in my heart.

By the other hand, i had a very similar event to yours, but in a Libelle (H301, flapped)...
Changed the tow plane that day from a 150 supercub to a Stearman, everything’s cool up to there. We were leaving the airstrip during takeoff at about 150~200 ft, and a little uncomfortably slow when suddenly i saw (and i swear it was scarry) the towplane's tail moving up and the plane abruptly changing it's attitude and climbing... first, there was no way to follow the plane in climbing, then i got into the massive rotor of the biplane and dropped a wing. Full opposite rudder and then dropped the other wing, again full rudder when the plane stabilized at a safer speed.
2 remarks:
- Towplane pilot had few hours on the plane and saw the speed way up while leaving the runway, so immediately tried to slow down. Then checked instruments and the plane marked higher IAS.
- when you get checked on a plane like a Stearman, you also need to get a master on radio com decoding... full throttle on that engine plus the wind hitting on your head & headphones, then its real challenging to understand radio talks. So, communication during aerotow is an issue. How can you tell the tow pilot to speed up, without having the risk of him understanding the opposite?

Francisco

[[email protected]]

I fly unflapped standard ships.
I used to fly a DG300 mainly dry. Tow in 110km/h range is not a problem.
This year I switch to a Discus 2. It has a big AoA also when on the ground and
it need about 130km/h dry to have and more speed when it is wet.

Both ship dry has the same weight and the almost the same surface. I think the main factor is the AoA. The differences are in the AoA and also in the tow hook position (baricentral for DG300 and on the nose for Discus 2) who main influence the stability on tow. When on tow we fly at relative low speed at high AoA fly in an uncommon attitude for the glider.

I always say my load and the desired speed at tow pilot befor take off.
ciao,
giovanni

[Michael Opitz]

At 18:35 23 August 2018, wrote:
>I fly unflapped standard ships.
>I used to fly a DG300 mainly dry. Tow in 110km/h range is not a
problem.
>This year I switch to a Discus 2. It has a big AoA also when on the
ground
>=
>and
>it need about 130km/h dry to have and more speed when it is wet.
>
>Both ship dry has the same weight and the almost the same
surface. I think
>=
>the main factor is the AoA. The differences are in the AoA and also
in the
>=
>tow hook position (baricentral for DG300 and on the nose for
Discus 2) who
>=
>main influence the stability on tow. When on tow we fly at relative
low
>spe=
>ed at high AoA fly in an uncommon attitude for the glider.
>
>I always say my load and the desired speed at tow pilot befor take
off.
>ciao,
>giovanni
>
>

The D-2 has an Angle Of Incidence (AOI) that corresponds to that of
flapped wing gliders. It came from 15m owners wanting to fly STD
Class competitions, and being allowed to do so with their flaps
locked at the zero setting. It was assumed that these 15 m birds
would be at a disadvantage in the climb because their airfoils were
not optimized to always be at the zero flap setting. It turned out
that the 15 m gliders did quite well in the STD Class, and were
noticeably better in the higher speed regimes due to their lower AOI
causing less (fuselage) drag. Centrair was the first to exploit this
with their Pegase, which is basically a "no flap" ASW-20. Anyway,
the D-2 has this lower AOI, so the visual sight picture from the
cockpit is somewhat more "nose high" at slower speeds than on
previous generation STD Class birds. It will fly just fine down into
the high 30 Kt range, but if you are on tow, the nose is so high by
then that you will have trouble seeing the tow plane. Take it from a
19 year D-2 owner. If the tow gets a little slow for your comfort,
just offset your tow position to the left side a bit. Then you will be
able to see the tow plane in the front right side of the canopy, AND
the tow pilot will thank you for doing it so that he/she doesn't have
to stand on the right rudder pedal so much...

RO

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, August 5, 2018 at 7:49:48 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> Have there been stall spins during an aero tow?
>
> Today, I had a very scary aero retrieve. From being towed to fast to-to slow. Anyways the scaries part was when, the tow plane started to climb and to slow. The indicated speed on the glider was 50 knots and decreasing. The glider kept slowing down and sinking under the tow plane into the wake. By this time the glider felt extremely sloopy and it felt like it was ready to drop into stall. Fortunately as I felt the wing wanting to drop, the tug leveld some and got back to a decent speed.
>
> Yes I did radio the pilot askig for 20 indicated more. And I was attempting to release when I hit the wake, but the release on the standard cirrus is far, and my extention had moved from my legs.


Slight topic creep: As a tow-pilot I always give more speed on tow when requested, but I've also had a complaint later that the climb-rate was very slow. My impression is that Pawnees are very draggy and rate of climb suffers noticeably with extra speed. I've only towed in turbulent air, so can't give any measurements.

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

To me, this is a "formation flight". If both are "sorta middle of the road", normal may be fine.
Something different (time of glider pilot, turbulence, heavy weight), thou shalt communicate what you want and/or can do!
It behooves BOTH pilots!

Loading a glider to 10-11lbs when the site is used to 6lbs, something needs to change!

Just my take.

I fly rather light wing loading gliders (1-26 SN 002, I weigh about 150lbs) to wet 15M glass full of water (9+lbs) and communicate to the towpilot.
You're BOTH PIC in your craft!
You do right by you!

Say, high altitude density for the tug and a heavy glider.
Glider pilot wants "X" but tug pilot states "no way", wait for another tug, or drop weight.
Don't assume!

We have enough statistics, no need for more, especially if they are avoidable.

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Monday, August 27, 2018 at 6:35:25 AM UTC-7, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> To me, this is a "formation flight". If both are "sorta middle of the road", normal may be fine.
> Something different (time of glider pilot, turbulence, heavy weight), thou shalt communicate what you want and/or can do!
> It behooves BOTH pilots!
>
> Loading a glider to 10-11lbs when the site is used to 6lbs, something needs to change!
>
> Just my take.
>
> I fly rather light wing loading gliders (1-26 SN 002, I weigh about 150lbs) to wet 15M glass full of water (9+lbs) and communicate to the towpilot.
> You're BOTH PIC in your craft!
> You do right by you!
>
> Say, high altitude density for the tug and a heavy glider.
> Glider pilot wants "X" but tug pilot states "no way", wait for another tug, or drop weight.
> Don't assume!
>
> We have enough statistics, no need for more, especially if they are avoidable.

Just to point out some places do not have comms between glider and tow. Just signals.

[John Foster]

On Monday, August 27, 2018 at 9:03:17 AM UTC-6, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:

> Just to point out some places do not have comms between glider and tow. Just signals.

That's when a face-to-face conversation about what you want/need prior to launch is key.

[kirk.stant]

On Monday, August 27, 2018 at 10:03:17 AM UTC-5, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:

> Just to point out some places do not have comms between glider and tow. Just signals.

Yeah, cuz radios are so, like, expensive and hard to use!

Tow planes without radios (and transponders and soon, ADS-B out) are dangerous, IMO. And there really is NO excuse not to have some kind of radio in every glider.

Our club is getting there, slowly. Unfortunately our most commonly used trainer is a Blanik L-13AC, and our A&Ps can't find a legal way to put a battery in it.

Kirk

[Dan Marotta]

On 8/27/2018 9:21 AM, kirk.stant wrote:
> ...Unfortunately our most commonly used trainer is a Blanik L-13AC,
> and our A&Ps can't find a legal way to put a battery in it.
> Kirk
I would think a simple fabricated tray with hold down and a mechanic's
logbook entry would be sufficient.
--
Dan, 5J

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Mon, 27 Aug 2018 08:21:14 -0700, kirk.stant wrote:

> On Monday, August 27, 2018 at 10:03:17 AM UTC-5, Jonathan St. Cloud
> wrote:
>
>> Just to point out some places do not have comms between glider and tow.
>> Just signals.
>
> Yeah, cuz radios are so, like, expensive and hard to use!
>
> Tow planes without radios (and transponders and soon, ADS-B out) are
> dangerous, IMO. And there really is NO excuse not to have some kind of
> radio in every glider.
>
> Our club is getting there, slowly. Unfortunately our most commonly used
> trainer is a Blanik L-13AC, and our A&Ps can't find a legal way to put a
> battery in it.
>
Use a handheld?

Some ICOM models can be fitted with a mic on a coiled lead and can be
Velcro'd to the panel.

When I bought my Libelle (in the UK) it had an ICOM (A3 IIRC) fitted on
the panel without its battery. The radio was mounted on a Velcro disk
stuck to an 80mm blanking plate and powered from the aircraft battery.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[Jonathon May]

At 15:48 27 August 2018, Dan Marotta wrote:
>
>
>On 8/27/2018 9:21 AM, kirk.stant wrote:
>> ...Unfortunately our most commonly used trainer is a Blanik L-
13AC,
>> and our A&Ps can't find a legal way to put a battery in it.
>> Kirk
>I would think a simple fabricated tray with hold down and a
mechanic's
>logbook entry would be sufficient.
>--
>Dan, 5J
>

I asked the tug pilot for 5Kn more last week and he said "At the rev
limit"...Ballasted Ventus behind a Euro fox with fine prop to optimise
towing 2 seaters.I was at 60 Kn so not too marginal.
You cannot beat a pawnee but you can break the bank using them.

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Monday, August 27, 2018 at 8:21:17 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
> On Monday, August 27, 2018 at 10:03:17 AM UTC-5, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
>
> > Just to point out some places do not have comms between glider and tow. Just signals.
>
> Yeah, cuz radios are so, like, expensive and hard to use!
>
> Tow planes without radios (and transponders and soon, ADS-B out) are dangerous, IMO. And there really is NO excuse not to have some kind of radio in every glider.
>
> Our club is getting there, slowly. Unfortunately our most commonly used trainer is a Blanik L-13AC, and our A&Ps can't find a legal way to put a battery in it.
>
> Kirk

I know, I have seen radios as low as $250.

[AS]

> I know, I have seen radios as low as $250.

A decent used Becker or Dittel 25kHz unit can be picked up in Europe for 100-150 Euros, so the 'high cost' argument is BS.

Uli
'AS'

[Chris Rowland[_2_]]

At 17:21 27 August 2018, Jonathon May wrote:
>At 15:48 27 August 2018, Dan Marotta wrote:
>>
>>
>>On 8/27/2018 9:21 AM, kirk.stant wrote:
>>> ...Unfortunately our most commonly used trainer is a Blanik L-
>13AC,
>>> and our A&Ps can't find a legal way to put a battery in it.
>>> Kirk
>>I would think a simple fabricated tray with hold down and a
>mechanic's
>>logbook entry would be sufficient.
>>--
>>Dan, 5J
>>
>
>I asked the tug pilot for 5Kn more last week and he said "At the rev
>limit"...Ballasted Ventus behind a Euro fox with fine prop to optimise
>towing 2 seaters.I was at 60 Kn so not too marginal.
>You cannot beat a pawnee but you can break the bank using them

There's a device known as a throttle that helps with this. Suggest your
towing organisation gets these installed and trains your tug pilots in its
use.

[Tony[_5_]]

weird when I read "Stick and Rudder" and went through flight training I was taught to pitch for airspeed

[JS[_5_]]

On Tuesday, August 28, 2018 at 1:33:24 PM UTC-7, Tony wrote:
> weird when I read "Stick and Rudder" and went through flight training I was taught to pitch for airspeed

Nice one, Tony.
Amazed it took three posts to hit it on the head.
Jim

[Dan Marotta]

Well, maybe the pitch of the prop is such that 60 KIAS is his maximum
speed at the rev limiter and it's a fixed pitch prop.Â* If that's the
case, then pitching down won't accomplish much other than to have the
rev limiter shut off the ignition.

On 8/28/2018 4:28 PM, JS wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 28, 2018 at 1:33:24 PM UTC-7, Tony wrote:
>> weird when I read "Stick and Rudder" and went through flight training I was taught to pitch for airspeed
> Nice one, Tony.
> Amazed it took three posts to hit it on the head.
> Jim

--
Dan, 5J