Flying with Parachutes

[John Huthmaker]

I'm just starting out with soaring. Simple question for you guys. How many of you fly with an emergency parachute? It looks like they cost around $2000 online. Pretty steep price; although the cost is insignificant if it saves your life. Is this something I should be looking to purchase?

[Bob Kuykendall]

On Friday, August 10, 2018 at 5:22:54 PM UTC-7, John Huthmaker wrote:
> I'm just starting out with soaring. Simple question for you guys. How many of you fly with an emergency parachute? It looks like they cost around $2000 online. Pretty steep price; although the cost is insignificant if it saves your life. Is this something I should be looking to purchase?

You have to arrive at your own balance of risk and reward. Most folks that I know didn't wear parachutes during training. They generally started wearing them when they bought their own gliders and started doing flying with more risk exposure like contests or cross-country soaring.

I do remember one man who did wear a parachute while doing primary training in 2-33s. At the time I found it odd. Now I respect that he arrived at his own balance point of risk and reward and proceeded accordingly.

If you look around, you can find used parachutes for under $1000. If in any doubt, have it inspected by a master rigger before completing the purchase..

Thanks, Bob K.

[John Huthmaker]

On Friday, August 10, 2018 at 5:37:05 PM UTC-7, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
> On Friday, August 10, 2018 at 5:22:54 PM UTC-7, John Huthmaker wrote:
> > I'm just starting out with soaring. Simple question for you guys. How many of you fly with an emergency parachute? It looks like they cost around $2000 online. Pretty steep price; although the cost is insignificant if it saves your life. Is this something I should be looking to purchase?
>
> You have to arrive at your own balance of risk and reward. Most folks that I know didn't wear parachutes during training. They generally started wearing them when they bought their own gliders and started doing flying with more risk exposure like contests or cross-country soaring.
>
> I do remember one man who did wear a parachute while doing primary training in 2-33s. At the time I found it odd. Now I respect that he arrived at his own balance point of risk and reward and proceeded accordingly.
>
> If you look around, you can find used parachutes for under $1000. If in any doubt, have it inspected by a master rigger before completing the purchase.
>
> Thanks, Bob K.

Do you know of any place I could peruse classifieds for this? I'd personally rather error on the side of caution. I dont really care too much if people think its nerdy.

[D S]

On Friday, August 10, 2018 at 5:22:54 PM UTC-7, John Huthmaker wrote:
> I'm just starting out with soaring. Simple question for you guys. How many of you fly with an emergency parachute? It looks like they cost around $2000 online. Pretty steep price; although the cost is insignificant if it saves your life. Is this something I should be looking to purchase?

When I was training and asked a similar question I was told something like "...well you can, but since you'll be doing a lot of pattern tows it won't do any good because you won't be high enough to work." I don't know if this is really true (for a typical parachute) but I took him at his word.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

John Huthmaker wrote on 8/10/2018 5:51 PM:
> On Friday, August 10, 2018 at 5:37:05 PM UTC-7, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
>> On Friday, August 10, 2018 at 5:22:54 PM UTC-7, John Huthmaker wrote:
>>> I'm just starting out with soaring. Simple question for you guys. How many of you fly with an emergency parachute? It looks like they cost around $2000 online. Pretty steep price; although the cost is insignificant if it saves your life. Is this something I should be looking to purchase?
>>
>> You have to arrive at your own balance of risk and reward. Most folks that I know didn't wear parachutes during training. They generally started wearing them when they bought their own gliders and started doing flying with more risk exposure like contests or cross-country soaring.
>>
>> I do remember one man who did wear a parachute while doing primary training in 2-33s. At the time I found it odd. Now I respect that he arrived at his own balance point of risk and reward and proceeded accordingly.
>>
>> If you look around, you can find used parachutes for under $1000. If in any doubt, have it inspected by a master rigger before completing the purchase.
>>
>> Thanks, Bob K.
>
> Do you know of any place I could peruse classifieds for this? I'd personally rather error on the side of caution. I dont really care too much if people think its nerdy.

This good: https://wingsandwheels.com/classifieds

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/Guide-to-transponders-in-sailplanes-2014A.pdf

[Charles Longley]

I am kind of unique. I have a lot of power time, like 20,000 hours. Maybe 50 hours in gliders. I also have sport parachute experience. My 5th static line jump the static line failed. I can go on and on with that story but the bottom line is I learned a lot from it.

Here’s my take on parachutes. Almost every primary glider has provisions for them. My glider club has a sufficient amount for whoever wants to wear one. My training with the parachute has taught me that an emergency chute will save you at 200’ at terminal velocity. So you can actually get out on a pattern altitude shot. You would need to make an immediate decision and pull the rip cord as soon as you got away from the ship or when you saw the ground rushing up at you. I rarely wore a parachute doing primary training but religiously wear it in my private ship. It’s up to the individual on wearing one but it’s your life to decide on........

[Frank Whiteley]

On Friday, August 10, 2018 at 6:22:54 PM UTC-6, John Huthmaker wrote:
> I'm just starting out with soaring. Simple question for you guys. How many of you fly with an emergency parachute? It looks like they cost around $2000 online. Pretty steep price; although the cost is insignificant if it saves your life. Is this something I should be looking to purchase?

Hard to say universally, but the several clubs I've flown with in the US and UK, most training two-seaters were not flown with parachutes, often maybe due to payload limitations. It was considered bad form in the UK for the instructor to wear a parachute when there wasn't one to offer to the student.

[waremark]

At my UK club parachutes have been used for all flights in club owned gliders for more than 20 years. Shortly after the then CFI made this a rule a ASK21 flying an introduction to gliding day was hit by an extraordinarily strong bolt of lightning and broke up. The instructor and student survived thanks to their chutes. Personally I had a midair collision with another glider 15 years ago. I and the other glider pilot both survived completely unhurt after using our chutes.

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

We don't fly with chutes for most training or rides.
We tend to fly with chutes in either ASK-21.

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

I think I remember the lightning strike on the 2 seater.

Oh, and a PS on my other post, most private glass fly with chutes, not much of anything else.

[Frank Whiteley]

On Saturday, August 11, 2018 at 6:31:39 AM UTC-6, waremark wrote:
> At my UK club parachutes have been used for all flights in club owned gliders for more than 20 years. Shortly after the then CFI made this a rule a ASK21 flying an introduction to gliding day was hit by an extraordinarily strong bolt of lightning and broke up. The instructor and student survived thanks to their chutes. Personally I had a midair collision with another glider 15 years ago. I and the other glider pilot both survived completely unhurt after using our chutes.

The use mandate was indeed fortuitous in that event for the pilot and passenger (first glider flight). Mid-airs seem to be rather more common. Of course if you have a parachute, you must have it repacked and inspected regularly. Missing a parachute AD can be lethal as in the case of the two Kestrel 19's that collided near Stratford-upon-Avon several years ago when a former UK acquaintance became a statistic.

Frank Whiteley

[Retting]

Do not buy a parachute. Do you wear one flying around in your Cessna?
Plus, we do not wear a chute because we fly cross country, we wear a chute to reduce the risk due to gaggle flying.
It is required use by competition rules. The chute then becomes an expensive convenient vetted cushion. Which is why glass pilots are always putting on their chute, even when the sky is filled with chuteless trainers and they are the only chuted one airborne.
You will know, later, when you need a chute.
Risk.....you have a much greater chance of dying driving using your phone. Driving fast. Eating while driving. Lightning. Gunshot, Crime.
The list goes on.
Yes, I know...Arcus, rudder, bailout....whatever.....he needs to strap on a 1-26 with a sports canopy first.
R

[JS[_5_]]

On Saturday, August 11, 2018 at 11:06:07 AM UTC-7, Retting wrote:
> Do not buy a parachute. Do you wear one flying around in your Cessna?
> Plus, we do not wear a chute because we fly cross country, we wear a chute to reduce the risk due to gaggle flying.
> It is required use by competition rules. The chute then becomes an expensive convenient vetted cushion. Which is why glass pilots are always putting on their chute, even when the sky is filled with chuteless trainers and they are the only chuted one airborne.
> You will know, later, when you need a chute.
> Risk.....you have a much greater chance of dying driving using your phone.. Driving fast. Eating while driving. Lightning. Gunshot, Crime.
> The list goes on.
> Yes, I know...Arcus, rudder, bailout....whatever.....he needs to strap on a 1-26 with a sports canopy first.
> R

Apologies from many of us, John. 2G mentioned something about this in another thread of yours.
Jim

[Andrzej Kobus]

Absolutely buy a parachute and wear it. You will never regret having one, but you might regret not having one when needed. Get a couple of jumps so you know how to use it. Tim Mara bailed out from a pattern altitude due to controls failure and thanks to the shoot he lived to talk about it.

[[email protected]]

Generally, a student and their instructor do not wear parachutes unless you will be doing aerobatics. If you advance to flying a single place sailplane, a parachute should be worn. Some sailplanes minimum operating equipment mandate a parachute.

Do not buy a used parachute until you pay for an inspection and repack by a certified rigger. This way you will have a professional opinion of the 'chute's condition.

In any measure, it is better to wear one and not need it than to need one and not have.

[Al McNamara[_4_]]

I'm amazed at some of the comments on this issue. In 20+ years of gliding,
I can remember only one flight without a parachute - at Seminole Lakes in
Florida. It was in a Grob Acro and was possibly the most uncomfortable
flight I've ever had, as the Acro seat (like most gliders built in Europe)
is designed to be sat in with a parachute.

Aside from comfort (yes of course you could use a parachute shaped cushion)
I personally know 3 pilots whose lives have been saved by parachutes in my
time gliding, and know of many more occasions where this has been the case
(including the lightning strike at Dunstable previously mentioned by Mark
Ware).

The US appears to have a culture of not wearing parachutes which I find
really surprising. In my view, wearing a parachute during flying training
should be mandatory. This would build a culture where it was the norm, and
every single seat pilot would see a parachute as being an essential bit of
equipment.

Al

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Retting wrote on 8/11/2018 11:06 AM:
> Do not buy a parachute. Do you wear one flying around in your Cessna?
> Plus, we do not wear a chute because we fly cross country, we wear a chute to reduce the risk due to gaggle flying.
> It is required use by competition rules. The chute then becomes an expensive convenient vetted cushion. Which is why glass pilots are always putting on their chute, even when the sky is filled with chuteless trainers and they are the only chuted one airborne.
> You will know, later, when you need a chute.
> Risk.....you have a much greater chance of dying driving using your phone. Driving fast. Eating while driving. Lightning. Gunshot, Crime.
> The list goes on.
> Yes, I know...Arcus, rudder, bailout....whatever.....he needs to strap on a 1-26 with a sports canopy first.

There are also collision risks in straight flight, not just gaggles. Glider
control failure is another risk: controls break, jam, or become ineffective when
mylar adhesive fails. Turbulence or mishandling can put the glider into an
unrecoverable situation. I spend far more time in my glider each year than
students do in their trainers, and I fly in more demanding conditions. My risk is
higher than theirs, so I think it's wise to wear a parachute while flying
cross-country.

Now that Cessna thing: I don't wear a parachute when I'm flying my Cessna, because
I don't have a Cessna; instead, I bought an airplane with it's own parachute.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/Guide-to-transponders-in-sailplanes-2014A.pdf

[WB]

On Saturday, August 11, 2018 at 6:45:15 PM UTC-5, Al McNamara wrote:
> I'm amazed at some of the comments on this issue. In 20+ years of gliding,
> I can remember only one flight without a parachute - at Seminole Lakes in
> Florida. It was in a Grob Acro and was possibly the most uncomfortable
> flight I've ever had, as the Acro seat (like most gliders built in Europe)
> is designed to be sat in with a parachute.
>
> Aside from comfort (yes of course you could use a parachute shaped cushion)
> I personally know 3 pilots whose lives have been saved by parachutes in my
> time gliding, and know of many more occasions where this has been the case
> (including the lightning strike at Dunstable previously mentioned by Mark
> Ware).
>
> The US appears to have a culture of not wearing parachutes which I find
> really surprising. In my view, wearing a parachute during flying training
> should be mandatory. This would build a culture where it was the norm, and
> every single seat pilot would see a parachute as being an essential bit of
> equipment.
>
> Al

Since I have a parachute for my glider, I also wear it whenever I fly in powered aircraft (except commercial of course). No reason to leave it hanging in the closet at home. I do get some funny looks, though, when I climb out of a Cessna wearing a chute.

[John Foster]

On Saturday, August 11, 2018 at 5:45:15 PM UTC-6, Al McNamara wrote:
> I'm amazed at some of the comments on this issue. In 20+ years of gliding,
> I can remember only one flight without a parachute - at Seminole Lakes in
> Florida. It was in a Grob Acro and was possibly the most uncomfortable
> flight I've ever had, as the Acro seat (like most gliders built in Europe)
> is designed to be sat in with a parachute.
>
> Aside from comfort (yes of course you could use a parachute shaped cushion)
> I personally know 3 pilots whose lives have been saved by parachutes in my
> time gliding, and know of many more occasions where this has been the case
> (including the lightning strike at Dunstable previously mentioned by Mark
> Ware).
>
> The US appears to have a culture of not wearing parachutes which I find
> really surprising. In my view, wearing a parachute during flying training
> should be mandatory. This would build a culture where it was the norm, and
> every single seat pilot would see a parachute as being an essential bit of
> equipment.
>
> Al

I think one of the reasons so many student pilots do not wear a parachute in the United States is because most of the training is done in a 2–33. These are not particularly amenable to wearing a parachute, especially for the instructor in the rear seat. And they would be very difficult to get out of quickly in an emergency situation. Otherwise, I would agree with your recommendation.

[2G]

Unless you have an emergency door ejection on your Cessna (I have never seen one with this), you won't be able to get out to use your parachute.

Tom

[WB]

On Saturday, August 11, 2018 at 10:29:47 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
> Unless you have an emergency door ejection on your Cessna (I have never seen one with this), you won't be able to get out to use your parachute.
>
> Tom

Why not? I have never had a problem opening a door on a Cessna in flight. In fact, on most old Cessnas, the doors pop open every time they are bumped by a shoulder.

Does anyone remember the Cirrus SR-22 accident of a few years ago where the Cirrus was in a mid-air? The airframe parachute was deployed but the plane was on fire. The two occupants ended up jumping (without chutes, unfortunately) to avoid burning. I'll wear my chute, thank you.

[2G]

On Saturday, August 11, 2018 at 9:09:25 PM UTC-7, WB wrote:
> On Saturday, August 11, 2018 at 10:29:47 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
> > Unless you have an emergency door ejection on your Cessna (I have never seen one with this), you won't be able to get out to use your parachute.
> >
> > Tom
>
> Why not? I have never had a problem opening a door on a Cessna in flight. In fact, on most old Cessnas, the doors pop open every time they are bumped by a shoulder.
>
> Does anyone remember the Cirrus SR-22 accident of a few years ago where the Cirrus was in a mid-air? The airframe parachute was deployed but the plane was on fire. The two occupants ended up jumping (without chutes, unfortunately) to avoid burning. I'll wear my chute, thank you.

Partially opening a door is one thing, opening so you can exit out of it going well in excess of Vne is another. If you want to be SURE you can get out, it must be jettisoned.

Tom

[[email protected]]

My club has enough parachutes for every glider we have and it's pilot's choice as to whether to wear them. The vast majority do. Here in Canada the type certificates for German gliders are almost verbatim translations of the LBA/EASA documents and I've noticed that they all seem to have under "required equipment" a back type parachute or a cushion of dimensions approximately the same as a backpack chute (the FAA TCDS for the same gliders seems to omit this) so you've got a choice of a cushion or a chute. Odds of needing a chute are very low but if I ever found myself needing one and chose a cushion instead I would feel a bit foolish. I also think that in case of a crash or a forced landing in remote country the parachute canopy might come in useful on the ground.

The Slingsby Kestrel 19 TCDS here in Canada is odd - it simply flat out requires a parachute to be onboard during flight!

[Ben Hirashima]

I'm surprised to hear people saying they don't use parachutes. I've only been flying gliders for about 4 years, but I don't think I've ever seen a person get in a glider without one. To me, it's a no brainer, like wearing a seatbelt in a car.

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Sat, 11 Aug 2018 16:54:02 -0700, Eric Greenwell wrote:

> Now that Cessna thing: I don't wear a parachute when I'm flying my
> Cessna, because I don't have a Cessna; instead, I bought an airplane
> with it's own parachute.
>
Another point: many Cessnas, Pipers and other light aircraft only have a
single door, often not on the pilot's side, AND the door is hinged at the
front, so the chances of anybody getting out, especially if they were
wearing a parachute, is much lower than it is for a glider.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[Retting]

You could wear it in the bathtub, perhaps going to the mall, rig it to your car in case your brakes fail, I know .... tow it behind your boat.
Don’t leave home without it. Buy some bubble wrap too....
Hey! How come nobody wears a helmet.
After all, flying cross country you might need to bail out. Your head might hit a cow.
LOL
Just having fun.
Cheers
R

[Dan Marotta]

On 8/11/2018 10:58 PM, wrote:
> I also think that in case of a crash or a forced landing in remote country the parachute canopy might come in useful on the ground.

It's about the best signaling device you can use, can be used for
shelter, food acquisition, bandages, splints,...Â* Those of us who have
attended survival schools are well aware of the uses of a parachute
after surviving whatever happened.

--
Dan, 5J

[Dan Marotta]

I've jumped out of a Cessna-182 with a sport rig which is much larger
than an emergency parachute.Â* Of course it had a jump door and no seats,
which made it much easier.

Recently, I ferried a C-182 which had not been flown for a dozen years
and I wore a parachute.Â* It was tight, but by opening the door, and
sliding the seat aft, I was able to rotate my body out the door.Â* Now,
should part of the harness catch on the door latch, the outcome would
not be as nice...

On 8/11/2018 9:29 PM, 2G wrote:
> Unless you have an emergency door ejection on your Cessna (I have never seen one with this), you won't be able to get out to use your parachute.
>
> Tom

--
Dan, 5J

[flgliderpilot[_2_]]

On Friday, August 10, 2018 at 8:22:54 PM UTC-4, John Huthmaker wrote:
> I'm just starting out with soaring. Simple question for you guys. How many of you fly with an emergency parachute? It looks like they cost around $2000 online. Pretty steep price; although the cost is insignificant if it saves your life. Is this something I should be looking to purchase?

When I started taking lessons, I asked about parachutes and the general consensus was that doing lessons involved a lot of getting in and out of the glider, and parachutes made it time consuming adjusting belts, sizing chutes, hard on the instructor, etc. it was just too much hassle. Considering most power pilots do no wear chutes, I told myself I'd be ok.

Once I soloed, I purchased my own parachute and handheld radio before I finally purchased my own glider. I had several incidents leading up to this decision:

1) We had a pilot with a brand new PIK having a grand old time doing wingovers in his new glider. He came fairly close to me on one of them, pulling up right in front of us coming the opposite direction causing us to make a sudden turn to avoid him. Close enough that it startled both myself AND the instructor. When you hear the instructor say OH **** you know it's close.

2) I had another pilot cut me off entering downwind... he must have been above and slightly behind me because neither of us saw each other until he sped up and descended right in front of me... about 75' ahead. I now make a few S turns before getting on the 45 to enter downwind.

3) I was on tow, just flying straight ahead and level at about 1500' when a Cesna flew right past us in the opposite direction, same altitude, about 40' off my wing tip. THAT one really startled me.. neither of us had radios so there was no warning.

4) Scratching in a weak thermal way downwind during my last leg of a silver badge attempt, desperately trying to get upwind to a better cloud... saw a twin prop heading very fast right at me. Decided I'd better bail from my thermal just in case he was flying IFR. He was, he flew right through where I was circling... and I was forced to land out. Not scary since I saw it coming, and the outlanding was fun for a new pilot in a 1-26.

But, I then made up my mind that I was always have a radio and a parachute even if I did not own a glider.

[John Huthmaker]

Well its pretty obvious that the responses here can be a bit of a mixed bag.. Some have very coherent well thought through responses that support their position. Others seem much less so.

I appreciate everyone chiming in here. For those who choose not to fly with one, I fully respect your decision. I get that they may be uncomfortable.. But I've made up my mind that I do personally want to start using one. I have to imagine that I start using one right from the beginning, it'll feel weird without one.

I spoke to my instructor yesterday, and he uses one. My soaring club shares an airport with a skydiving company. So he introduced me to a rigger, and even recommended jumping with one. I tend to think he likes using one, but has had few students who had the desire.

I have a beautiful wife at home, and allot of good years left on this earth.. I'd never let a little danger take me away from an exciting sport. But if there is a way to make something safer, I'm all for it.

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Sunday, August 12, 2018 at 9:28:48 AM UTC-7, John Huthmaker wrote:
> Well its pretty obvious that the responses here can be a bit of a mixed bag. Some have very coherent well thought through responses that support their position. Others seem much less so.
>
> I appreciate everyone chiming in here. For those who choose not to fly with one, I fully respect your decision. I get that they may be uncomfortable. But I've made up my mind that I do personally want to start using one. I have to imagine that I start using one right from the beginning, it'll feel weird without one.
>
> I spoke to my instructor yesterday, and he uses one. My soaring club shares an airport with a skydiving company. So he introduced me to a rigger, and even recommended jumping with one. I tend to think he likes using one, but has had few students who had the desire.
>
> I have a beautiful wife at home, and allot of good years left on this earth. I'd never let a little danger take me away from an exciting sport. But if there is a way to make something safer, I'm all for it.

Well John, in twenty years you have the opportunity to re-access your wife and your life to decide if you want purchase another chute when the useful life of this chute has expired. We had this debate a few months ago. I was surprised at the number of pilots that took a look around at the state of affairs in their lives and decided to stay with the chute that has been sweated on for 20 years and deemed expired by the manufacturer and Parachute Riggers Association.
Glad you know the value of your life.

[Graham Robertson]

At 16:28 12 August 2018, John Huthmaker wrote:
>Well its pretty obvious that the responses here can be a bit of a mixed
>bag=
>.. Some have very coherent well thought through responses that support
>thei=
>r position. Others seem much less so.
>
>I appreciate everyone chiming in here. For those who choose not to fly
>wit=
>h one, I fully respect your decision. I get that they may be
>uncomfortable=
>.. But I've made up my mind that I do personally want to start using one.

>=
>I have to imagine that I start using one right from the beginning, it'll
>fe=
>el weird without one.
>
>I spoke to my instructor yesterday, and he uses one. My soaring club
>share=
>s an airport with a skydiving company. So he introduced me to a rigger,
>an=
>d even recommended jumping with one. I tend to think he likes using one,
>b=
>ut has had few students who had the desire.
>
>I have a beautiful wife at home, and allot of good years left on this
>earth=
>.. I'd never let a little danger take me away from an exciting sport.
But
>=
>if there is a way to make something safer, I'm all for it.
>

[flgliderpilot[_2_]]

Similar to riding a motorcycle with or without a helmet.

[[email protected]]

This is a fun discussion.
I promised my wife many decades ago that I would always wear a parachute when flying.
I had an biannual to fly in my aeroclub. The plane was a 182. The instructor gave me a big stare when I met him at the plane wearing a chute. He asked me what he is going to do if I decide to bail. I responded, "you should think about that." He declined to go forward with the flight.

[flgliderpilot[_2_]]

On Sunday, August 12, 2018 at 11:32:57 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> This is a fun discussion.
> I promised my wife many decades ago that I would always wear a parachute when flying.
> I had an biannual to fly in my aeroclub. The plane was a 182. The instructor gave me a big stare when I met him at the plane wearing a chute. He asked me what he is going to do if I decide to bail. I responded, "you should think about that." He declined to go forward with the flight.

LOL

My reply would have been "hang on to me and don't let go"

[kirk.stant]

On Saturday, August 11, 2018 at 1:06:07 PM UTC-5, Retting wrote:
> Do not buy a parachute. Do you wear one flying around in your Cessna?
> Plus, we do not wear a chute because we fly cross country, we wear a chute to reduce the risk due to gaggle flying.
> It is required use by competition rules. The chute then becomes an expensive convenient vetted cushion. Which is why glass pilots are always putting on their chute, even when the sky is filled with chuteless trainers and they are the only chuted one airborne.
> You will know, later, when you need a chute.
> Risk.....you have a much greater chance of dying driving using your phone.. Driving fast. Eating while driving. Lightning. Gunshot, Crime.
> The list goes on.
> Yes, I know...Arcus, rudder, bailout....whatever.....he needs to strap on a 1-26 with a sports canopy first.
> R

This is either a poor attempt at sarcasm, or just plain trolling, regardless, it is incorrect on so many levels it's just plain pathetic.

R, is you are capable of doing any basic research, you may be surprised to find that gliding is actually MORE dangerous than all the activities you mentioned. It's more dangerous than flying fighters in combat.

As others have said, we in the US are saddled with a history of training in gliders that pretty much do not permit wearing chutes (2-33s) and as a result have become desensitized to the risk. Just about every other gliding country either mandates or strongly encourages the wear of chutes.

As we move to using more modern trainers, that are designed to be comfortable wearing a chute, it should be a no-brainer; but this being 'Murica I'm not holding my breath - old habits are hard to break.

Kirk

[[email protected]]

I feel a little exposed when I take a flight review in a 2-33 kwithout a chute. I've been wearing one to fly my single-seat gliders for 50+ years. Does that unease make logical sense? Probably not; I've never needed my chute for anything except a cushion. Normally I'd not fly without it.

But...I've had to work really hard to find a couple that allow me to get into certain cockpits. I'm 6'3". I tried just about every commercial option there was in the U.S. years ago and they vary significantly. Some are the same thickness throughout the pack while others are thin behind the shoulders (which is what I need). Some wrap under the thighs. Some are stiff while others are more flexible and can be shaped around a bulge in the seat back, etc. So if you're on the tall side, I'd hold off until I settled on a specific glider before buying a chute.

We've thrashed the 20-year-life issue endlessly so I won't repeat the arguments for/against here.

Chip Bearden

[WB]

On Saturday, August 11, 2018 at 11:22:47 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
> On Saturday, August 11, 2018 at 9:09:25 PM UTC-7, WB wrote:
> > On Saturday, August 11, 2018 at 10:29:47 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
> > > Unless you have an emergency door ejection on your Cessna (I have never seen one with this), you won't be able to get out to use your parachute.
> > >
> > > Tom
> >
> > Why not? I have never had a problem opening a door on a Cessna in flight. In fact, on most old Cessnas, the doors pop open every time they are bumped by a shoulder.
> >
> > Does anyone remember the Cirrus SR-22 accident of a few years ago where the Cirrus was in a mid-air? The airframe parachute was deployed but the plane was on fire. The two occupants ended up jumping (without chutes, unfortunately) to avoid burning. I'll wear my chute, thank you.
>
> Partially opening a door is one thing, opening so you can exit out of it going well in excess of Vne is another. If you want to be SURE you can get out, it must be jettisoned.
>
> Tom

Well, even if you could jettison the door, it might still be impossible to get out. Not even the most sophisticated ejections seats on 100 million dollar fighters save every pilot that uses them. So if we can't be absolutely 100% percent sure of getting out, then why try at all? Should we just resign ourselves to dying bravely?

There will always be situations where a chute won't help. However, If a wing or tail is off or mangled from a midair, it's unlikely the aircraft is going nose down VNE. If it's on fire, then I'm going to trim to slow and jump.. Lots of situations can be conjectures where a chute would be useful. I can think of no situations where having a chute would be worse than not having one. To each his own.

[[email protected]]

Having a chute > needing one < not having one

Do the math.

Any questions?

Send them to someone who can explain simple concepts. Like your kindergartner teacher.

[[email protected]]

Having a chute > needing one < not having one

Yeah, yeah. I know. I screwed that one up. Sorry.

Better to have a chute and not need it than to need one and not have it.

I was always better at English than Math. Thank God for free apps.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

wrote on 8/13/2018 7:13 PM:
> Having a chute > needing one < not having one
>
> Yeah, yeah. I know. I screwed that one up. Sorry.
>
> Better to have a chute and not need it than to need one and not have it.
>
> I was always better at English than Math. Thank God for free apps.

In 5 minute, I was able to recall 7 pilots I know/knew whose lives were saved by
parachuting from their glider. I can't remember any pilots that were saved by seat
belts in their cars. So, if you know me, please wear a parachute, because there is
a good chance you will need to bail out of a glider, and I don't want to lose any
friends.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/Guide-to-transponders-in-sailplanes-2014A.pdf

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Monday, August 13, 2018 at 7:36:50 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> wrote on 8/13/2018 7:13 PM:
> > Having a chute > needing one < not having one
> >
> > Yeah, yeah. I know. I screwed that one up. Sorry.
> >
> > Better to have a chute and not need it than to need one and not have it..
> >
> > I was always better at English than Math. Thank God for free apps.
>
> In 5 minute, I was able to recall 7 pilots I know/knew whose lives were saved by
> parachuting from their glider. I can't remember any pilots that were saved by seat
> belts in their cars. So, if you know me, please wear a parachute, because there is
> a good chance you will need to bail out of a glider, and I don't want to lose any
> friends.
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
> - "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
>
> http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/Guide-to-transponders-in-sailplanes-2014A.pdf

I have been saved by a seat belt as the car I was in flipped end over end for the initial momentum dispersion then rolled down a hill before stopping. I wear seat belts and parachutes when appropriate. I do fly commercial rides at our gliderport were parachutes would not be practical on the scenic flights. I also have lots of both helicopter and Cessna time with not even the thought of wearing a chute.

[krasw]

tiistai 14. elokuuta 2018 7.10.18 UTC+3 Jonathan St. Cloud kirjoitti:
>
> I do fly commercial rides at our gliderport were parachutes would not be practical on the scenic flights.

That's an excuse like no other. We do scenic flights all the time, and no passenger has ever said that wearing parachute is inconvenient. But obviously we live in different culture.

[Al McNamara[_4_]]

At 10:51 14 August 2018, krasw wrote:
>tiistai 14. elokuuta 2018 7.10.18 UTC+3 Jonathan St. Cloud kirjoitti:
>>
>> I do fly commercial rides at our gliderport were parachutes would not
be
>practical on the scenic flights.
>
>That's an excuse like no other. We do scenic flights all the time, and no
>passenger has ever said that wearing parachute is inconvenient. But
>obviously we live in different culture.
>
Someone on a 'scenic flight' rarely understands the risk involved in
flying, or to themselves. For this reason. at our club, the aim is that
introductory flights (which you categorise as scenic flights) should be the
safest training flight ever carried out. This includes wearing a
parachute, a brief from the instructor on exiting the glider in an
emergency and a brief on parachute deployment. The K21 breakup following a
lightning strike at Dunstable some years ago was an introductory flight (a
one day introductory course in this case) and the parachute saved the
passengers (and instructors) life. The accident report is linked below.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/542300e540f0b613420009cf/dft_avsafety_pdf_500699.pdf


In my view, the only excuse for not providing passengers with a parachute
is if the glider is not designed in a way that makes it practical. Where
this is the case, you should really be considering whether it is an
appropriate glider to do such an introductory flight in. More experienced
people, who understand the risk, can of course make up their own mind.

Al

[Duster[_2_]]

>Do not buy a parachute. ...
>Risk.....you have a much greater chance of dying driving using your phone. >Driving fast. Eating while driving. Lightning. Gunshot, Crime.
>
>R

Not true by a good measure, according to cited stats. Imagine giving that as "informed consent" to a uninformed rider! Trolling for lawyers, anyone? See Mr. Greenwell's post. That said, equally untrue is, as another famous CFIG once said, there's a 50/50 chance of dying each time you fly (i.e., either you live or you die).

[Dan Marotta]

That's faulty logic and that CFIG was making a joke.

On 8/14/2018 8:50 AM, Duster wrote:
> That said, equally untrue is, as another famous CFIG once said, there's a 50/50 chance of dying each time you fly (i.e., either you live or you die).

--
Dan, 5J

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 3:51:23 AM UTC-7, krasw wrote:
> tiistai 14. elokuuta 2018 7.10.18 UTC+3 Jonathan St. Cloud kirjoitti:
> >
> > I do fly commercial rides at our gliderport were parachutes would not be practical on the scenic flights.
>
> That's an excuse like no other. We do scenic flights all the time, and no passenger has ever said that wearing parachute is inconvenient. But obviously we live in different culture.

With all due respect there is a lot of judgement on this site. Most of my multiple thousands of hours of flight time is without a chute, nor would one have been appropriate or even useful (helicopter; twin). I certainly respect your operation's procedures and I don't disagree. However, many operations conduct commercial rides as a normal course of business without chutes.. A part time line pilot is not going to change how an operation has successfully run for over 45 years, with never an incident where a parachute would have been nice.

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 11:14:39 AM UTC-4, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 3:51:23 AM UTC-7, krasw wrote:
> > tiistai 14. elokuuta 2018 7.10.18 UTC+3 Jonathan St. Cloud kirjoitti:
> > >
> > > I do fly commercial rides at our gliderport were parachutes would not be practical on the scenic flights.
> >
> > That's an excuse like no other. We do scenic flights all the time, and no passenger has ever said that wearing parachute is inconvenient. But obviously we live in different culture.
>
> With all due respect there is a lot of judgement on this site. Most of my multiple thousands of hours of flight time is without a chute, nor would one have been appropriate or even useful (helicopter; twin). I certainly respect your operation's procedures and I don't disagree. However, many operations conduct commercial rides as a normal course of business without chutes. A part time line pilot is not going to change how an operation has successfully run for over 45 years, with never an incident where a parachute would have been nice.

+1
UH

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Dan Marotta wrote on 8/14/2018 7:58 AM:
> That's faulty logic and that CFIG was making a joke.
>
> On 8/14/2018 8:50 AM, Duster wrote:
>> That said, equally untrue is, as another famous CFIG once said, there's a 50/50
>> chance of dying each time you fly (i.e., either you live or you die).

It seemed uninformed about probability at the time, it distracted from the point
he (Knauff, right?) was trying to make, and I never saw the explanation that it
was a joke until now. Lots of people missed the joke explanation, apparently,
given the number that still comment on it's inaccuracy.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/Guide-to-transponders-in-sailplanes-2014A.pdf

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Al McNamara wrote on 8/14/2018 5:22 AM:
> At 10:51 14 August 2018, krasw wrote:
>> tiistai 14. elokuuta 2018 7.10.18 UTC+3 Jonathan St. Cloud kirjoitti:
>>>
>>> I do fly commercial rides at our gliderport were parachutes would not
> be
>> practical on the scenic flights.
>>
>> That's an excuse like no other. We do scenic flights all the time, and no
>> passenger has ever said that wearing parachute is inconvenient. But
>> obviously we live in different culture.
>>
> Someone on a 'scenic flight' rarely understands the risk involved in
> flying, or to themselves. For this reason. at our club, the aim is that
> introductory flights (which you categorise as scenic flights) should be the
> safest training flight ever carried out. This includes wearing a
> parachute, a brief from the instructor on exiting the glider in an
> emergency and a brief on parachute deployment. The K21 breakup following a
> lightning strike at Dunstable some years ago was an introductory flight (a
> one day introductory course in this case) and the parachute saved the
> passengers (and instructors) life.

I think there is a significant distinction between scenic flights and training
flights, regardless what you call them. True scenic flights will be conducted in
good weather and not in potentially threatening weather, unlike the ASK 21
training flight, where thunderstorms were likely. I suggest an alternate
description of that flight could be "bad judgement for deciding to fly in those
conditions; good luck parachutes were routinely required".

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/Guide-to-transponders-in-sailplanes-2014A.pdf

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Eric Greenwell wrote on 8/13/2018 7:36 PM:
> wrote on 8/13/2018 7:13 PM:
>> Having a chute > needing one < not having one
>>
>> Yeah, yeah. I know. I screwed that one up. Sorry.
>>
>> Better to have a chute and not need it than to need one and not have it.
>>
>> I was always better at English than Math. Thank God for free apps.
>
> In 5 minute, I was able to recall 7 pilots I know/knew whose lives were saved
> by parachuting from their glider. I can't remember any pilots that were saved
> by seat belts in their cars. So, if you know me, please wear a parachute,
> because there is a good chance you will need to bail out of a glider, and I
> don't want to lose any friends.

Correction: I do know a glider pilot that survived a car crash due to seat belts,
so the score is...

Parachutes: 7
Seat belts: 1

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/Guide-to-transponders-in-sailplanes-2014A.pdf

[Chris Rowland[_2_]]

At 16:24 14 August 2018, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>Eric Greenwell wrote on 8/13/2018 7:36 PM:
>> wrote on 8/13/2018 7:13 PM:
>>> Having a chute > needing one >
>>> Yeah, yeah. I know. I screwed that one up. Sorry.
>>>
>>> Better to have a chute and not need it than to need one and not have
it.
>>>
>>> I was always better at English than Math. Thank God for free apps.
>>
>> In 5 minute, I was able to recall 7 pilots I know/knew whose lives were
>saved
>> by parachuting from their glider. I can't remember any pilots that were
>saved
>> by seat belts in their cars. So, if you know me, please wear a
parachute,
>> because there is a good chance you will need to bail out of a glider,
and
>I
>> don't want to lose any friends.
>
>Correction: I do know a glider pilot that survived a car crash due to
seat
>belts,
>so the score is...
>
>Parachutes: 7
>Seat belts: 1
>
>--
>Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email
>me)
>- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
>
>https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
>- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
>
>http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/Guide-to-transponders-in-sailplanes-2014A.pdf
>
I've had two car accidents where I was wearing a seat belt and got out
without a scratch. (Neither my fault.)
If I hadn't been wearing a belt I don't think that would have happened.
No I wasn't lucky, I'd made the decision to always wear a seat belt long
before.
We don't notice when things just work.

[flgliderpilot[_2_]]

Saved by a seat belt here.. someone ran a light and I t-boned them going about 50. No airbags back then. Also saved by a helmet riding a motorcycle.

I make my own luck. I wear seatbelts, helmets, and parachutes when possible.

[2G]

On Sunday, August 12, 2018 at 8:35:21 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> I've jumped out of a Cessna-182 with a sport rig which is much larger
> than an emergency parachute.Â* Of course it had a jump door and no seats,
> which made it much easier.
>
> Recently, I ferried a C-182 which had not been flown for a dozen years
> and I wore a parachute.Â* It was tight, but by opening the door, and
> sliding the seat aft, I was able to rotate my body out the door.Â* Now,
> should part of the harness catch on the door latch, the outcome would
> not be as nice...
>
> On 8/11/2018 9:29 PM, 2G wrote:
> > Unless you have an emergency door ejection on your Cessna (I have never seen one with this), you won't be able to get out to use your parachute.
> >
> > Tom
>
> --
> Dan, 5J

Now try having two big guys pushing the door closed while you're trying to exit - that will simulate the air pressure you will encounter at Vne+.

Tom

[2G]

On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 9:24:55 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> Eric Greenwell wrote on 8/13/2018 7:36 PM:
> > wrote on 8/13/2018 7:13 PM:
> >> Having a chute > needing one < not having one
> >>
> >> Yeah, yeah. I know. I screwed that one up. Sorry.
> >>
> >> Better to have a chute and not need it than to need one and not have it.
> >>
> >> I was always better at English than Math. Thank God for free apps.
> >
> > In 5 minute, I was able to recall 7 pilots I know/knew whose lives were saved
> > by parachuting from their glider. I can't remember any pilots that were saved
> > by seat belts in their cars. So, if you know me, please wear a parachute,
> > because there is a good chance you will need to bail out of a glider, and I
> > don't want to lose any friends.
>
> Correction: I do know a glider pilot that survived a car crash due to seat belts,
> so the score is...
>
> Parachutes: 7
> Seat belts: 1
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
> - "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
>
> http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/Guide-to-transponders-in-sailplanes-2014A.pdf

I was in a car crash and was wearing a sear belt. It was pretty dramatic: I slid under a moving semi at high velocity.

Tom

[2G]

On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 9:24:55 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> Eric Greenwell wrote on 8/13/2018 7:36 PM:
> > wrote on 8/13/2018 7:13 PM:
> >> Having a chute > needing one < not having one
> >>
> >> Yeah, yeah. I know. I screwed that one up. Sorry.
> >>
> >> Better to have a chute and not need it than to need one and not have it.

[krasw]

On Tuesday, 14 August 2018 18:14:39 UTC+3, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 3:51:23 AM UTC-7, krasw wrote:
> > tiistai 14. elokuuta 2018 7.10.18 UTC+3 Jonathan St. Cloud kirjoitti:
> > >
> > > I do fly commercial rides at our gliderport were parachutes would not be practical on the scenic flights.
> >
> > That's an excuse like no other. We do scenic flights all the time, and no passenger has ever said that wearing parachute is inconvenient. But obviously we live in different culture.
>
> With all due respect there is a lot of judgement on this site. Most of my multiple thousands of hours of flight time is without a chute, nor would one have been appropriate or even useful (helicopter; twin). I certainly respect your operation's procedures and I don't disagree. However, many operations conduct commercial rides as a normal course of business without chutes. A part time line pilot is not going to change how an operation has successfully run for over 45 years, with never an incident where a parachute would have been nice.

As I said, we have different culture. I have never seen or heard anyone flying without chute and would ground such pilot on the spot and forever. Anecdotal evidence make extremely bad statistics. I too have never used parachute, though I have witnessed emergency jump after midair.

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 10:58:42 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> That's faulty logic and that CFIG was making a joke.
>
> On 8/14/2018 8:50 AM, Duster wrote:
> > That said, equally untrue is, as another famous CFIG once said, there's a 50/50 chance of dying each time you fly (i.e., either you live or you die).
>
> --
> Dan, 5J

Not only that, but it was a 50/50 chance of a rope break on each flight, not death. He was making a sarcastic point about being ready for such an event.

[Retting]

I am not against parachutes, but the thread initiator is a newbie starting lessons and I felt some exposure to the sport up to the point of a glider license would be in order before purchasing such an expensive piece of insurance. Annnnndddd if he is that scared about leaving sweetie and little Susie behind, perhaps he should purchase a Pipistral with a ballistic parachute to improve the odds even more.
Point is, I don’t want to start a trend of advising or scaring new comers to a dying sport that soaring is more dangerous than driving while eating a Big Mac or mowing the grass with a thunderstorm about, and the only way to survive is to pump out the cost of a parachute.
But, I see I am out voted base on what I’ve read, so Johnny, have at. Welcome to a great little known miracle that many created (not me) for our exclusive use.
As for myself, When I fly off my strip, cross country and all, no chute. Comfy cushions.
I’ll probably hit a cow tomorrow.
Cheers,
R

[[email protected]]

Mercy sakes, we've beat this topic to death!

As for Krasn "grounding" any pilot who doesn't wear a chute, I guess that is a perfect example of why America is America, namely over here we believe in personal liberty and personal responsibility. If a guy and to wear or not wear a chute, thats his/her business. I am more concerned with his flying practices because thats what can kill me (midair etc) not whether he wears a chute. Thats his bisiness.

And don't give me the dribble about having more soaring fatalities being bad for the overall "image" of soaring. We are and have always been a minute subset of the aviation community. Nobody give a hoot about us or our safety record or lack there of. Fatalities occur and will continue to occur primarily due to **** poor aeronautical decisions aka pilot error.

Wear a chute or don't wear a chute, thats your choice. Personally I wear one while flying my bird solo but for training flights I am more concerned with teaching and practicing situational awareness. That is something thats is way more important imop that having a chute.

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 11:46:37 PM UTC-7, krasw wrote:
> On Tuesday, 14 August 2018 18:14:39 UTC+3, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> > On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 3:51:23 AM UTC-7, krasw wrote:
> > > tiistai 14. elokuuta 2018 7.10.18 UTC+3 Jonathan St. Cloud kirjoitti:
> > > >
> > > > I do fly commercial rides at our gliderport were parachutes would not be practical on the scenic flights.
> > >
> > > That's an excuse like no other. We do scenic flights all the time, and no passenger has ever said that wearing parachute is inconvenient. But obviously we live in different culture.
> >
> > With all due respect there is a lot of judgement on this site. Most of my multiple thousands of hours of flight time is without a chute, nor would one have been appropriate or even useful (helicopter; twin). I certainly respect your operation's procedures and I don't disagree. However, many operations conduct commercial rides as a normal course of business without chutes. A part time line pilot is not going to change how an operation has successfully run for over 45 years, with never an incident where a parachute would have been nice.
>
> As I said, we have different culture. I have never seen or heard anyone flying without chute and would ground such pilot on the spot and forever. Anecdotal evidence make extremely bad statistics. I too have never used parachute, though I have witnessed emergency jump after midair.

Imagine this, a 2-32 with two passengers in the back seat. It has been a hot day, the passengers are taking this flight on whim and are giddy, laughing, perhaps one is a minor, or a young couple looking for a thrill and not really in a the state of mind I want someone making command decisions about life. The canopy is closed at the last moment the tow starts smoothly, at 300 feet you hit the first bump, the canopy flies off. With the canopy goes any hope of being heard over the wind, the two in the back were well briefed on only jump if you hear "bailout, bailout, bailout," how to pull the rip cord and where it is so when the canopy goes and they see the pilot in the front say something right after the canopy was jettisoned they bailout, at 300 feet on windy tow. Not having an incident needing a parachute is not anecdotal, it is factual. However, there have been a number of lost canopies, broken tow ropes, wind shear, tow plane engine problems on tow... any number of issues that require a calm pilot to make the correct timely decisions. Rather than ground pilots who fly without a chute ground the pilots that take rides up with thunderstorms local. I don't think any of this chute or no chute is culture, it is experience. The experiences you your side of the pond are different than the ones on this side. In my experiences as a line pilot, other than on the acro rides where it is not only the law but a great idea, I believe a chute would be more dangerous. Especially in 2-32 dual rides where you have two to verify each other's bad decision. I ALWAYS wear a chute when pleasure flying a glider, and almost never wear a chute when commercially flying a glider. I never wear a chute in a helicopter, in a cabin class twin... The right tool in the hands of the wrong person is more dangerous than no tool.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

2G wrote on 8/14/2018 8:49 PM:
> On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 9:24:55 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> Eric Greenwell wrote on 8/13/2018 7:36 PM:
>>> wrote on 8/13/2018 7:13 PM:
>>>> Having a chute > needing one < not having one
>>>>
>>>> Yeah, yeah. I know. I screwed that one up. Sorry.
>>>>
>>>> Better to have a chute and not need it than to need one and not have it.
>>>>
>>>> I was always better at English than Math. Thank God for free apps.
>>>
>>> In 5 minute, I was able to recall 7 pilots I know/knew whose lives were saved
>>> by parachuting from their glider. I can't remember any pilots that were saved
>>> by seat belts in their cars. So, if you know me, please wear a parachute,
>>> because there is a good chance you will need to bail out of a glider, and I
>>> don't want to lose any friends.
>>
>> Correction: I do know a glider pilot that survived a car crash due to seat belts,
>> so the score is...
>>
>> Parachutes: 7
>> Seat belts: 1

> I was in a car crash and was wearing a sear belt. It was pretty dramatic: I slid under a moving semi at high velocity.
>

I did not recall that - when did it happen? Do you believe the seat belts saved
your life?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/Guide-to-transponders-in-sailplanes-2014A.pdf

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

I have been in a few violent automotive accidents, airbag never deployed, but belt worked as they should.
Ifmairbags were so great, name a SINGLE automotive racing,application where they are mandated!
A single one.

Drawing a blank? There is a reason.
Rollcage, great belts, likely even HANS device makes a difference.

Am I against a chute?
Nope.
Have I thought I needed one?
Nope.
Would I love a chute when needed?
Absolutely!

I have had close calls in a gaggle and "may need a chute", but was wearing one, never had to use one.

I have done "at least hundreds" of rides and 8 years of instruction. Situational awareness helps, then again, there is the, "oh poop" situation, a chute may have been nice.

If someone wants a chute, I will NOT harass, but I weigh risk/benefit.

A 2-33, sucks for the ride, totally sucks for the rated pilot.

[Jonathon May]

At 17:54 15 August 2018, Charlie M. UH & 002 owner/pilot wrote:
>I have been in a few violent automotive accidents, airbag never
deployed,
>but belt worked as they should.
>Ifmairbags were so great, name a SINGLE automotive
racing,application where
>they are mandated!
>A single one.
>
>Drawing a blank? There is a reason.
>Rollcage, great belts, likely even HANS device makes a difference.
>
>Am I against a chute?
>Nope.
>Have I thought I needed one?
>Nope.
>Would I love a chute when needed?
>Absolutely!
>
>I have had close calls in a gaggle and "may need a chute", but
was wearing
>one, never had to use one.
>
>I have done "at least hundreds" of rides and 8 years of instruction.
>Situational awareness helps, then again, there is the, "oh poop"
situation,
>a chute may have been nice.
>
>If someone wants a chute, I will NOT harass, but I weigh
risk/benefit.
>
>A 2-33, sucks for the ride, totally sucks for the rated pilot.
>

Strange to say this from this side of the pond but:-

If you have an incident and some lawyer can say "why didn't they
have parachutes",you might as well sell up right away and cut your
losses.Even if the 'chute would have made no difference, they will
still want a telephone number size payout.
We make our trial flights watch a 15mins safety video and wear a
parachute ,and brief them on how to use it.
No accidents on my watch is the rule,
over weight no
rain in sight no
guest has had a drink no
cloud base less than 2000ft agl no

wind over 20mph no
and there will be more, which is why we are taking bookings for
weekend trial lesson for 2019,because we are fully booked,not that
we fly that many, we keep canceling and re-booking .
Rant over, you shouldn't need to buy a 'chute till you buy your
glider.
Jon

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

Since this is sorta directed at me, and some others in this thread (especially in the US....).....

I have NEVER been against chutes for any flight.
Period.
Most of our training is in 2-33's, not good for the front seater, way worse for the rear seater (me for a decade or so....) regarding a chute.
No, don't bring up being in the dark ages on using a 2-33.......just, don't..........

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote on 8/15/2018 10:54 AM:
> I have been in a few violent automotive accidents, airbag never deployed, but belt worked as they should.
> Ifmairbags were so great, name a SINGLE automotive racing,application where they are mandated!
> A single one.

Irrelevant question for most race cars, because the vehicles are so different:
race car drivers are belted in far more securely than occupants of a passenger
car, and the seats provide much more support. An airbag has nothing to offer in
that situation.

You might as well ask "if cup holders are so great, why don't race cars have them?"

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/Guide-to-transponders-in-sailplanes-2014A.pdf

[John Huthmaker]

On Wednesday, August 15, 2018 at 12:41:46 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote on 8/15/2018 10:54 AM:
> > I have been in a few violent automotive accidents, airbag never deployed, but belt worked as they should.
> > Ifmairbags were so great, name a SINGLE automotive racing,application where they are mandated!
> > A single one.
>
> Irrelevant question for most race cars, because the vehicles are so different:
> race car drivers are belted in far more securely than occupants of a passenger
> car, and the seats provide much more support. An airbag has nothing to offer in
> that situation.
>
> You might as well ask "if cup holders are so great, why don't race cars have them?"
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
> - "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
>
> http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/Guide-to-transponders-in-sailplanes-2014A.pdf

I think that is actually the million dollar question. If cup holders are so great, why dont race cars have them? Anyone care to take a crack at it?

[[email protected]]

The airbag comment is interesting.
Several good quality studies have looked at the impact of airbags on deaths in motor vehicle accidents. The interesting statistics have to do with the use of seatbelts. Turns out that seatbelts are responsible for the reduction in deaths, not airbags. When not wearing seatbelts the airbags made no reduction in deaths.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

wrote on 8/15/2018 1:11 PM:
> The airbag comment is interesting. Several good quality studies have looked at
> the impact of airbags on deaths in motor vehicle accidents. The interesting
> statistics have to do with the use of seatbelts. Turns out that seatbelts are
> responsible for the reduction in deaths, not airbags. When not wearing
> seatbelts the airbags made no reduction in deaths.
>
Currently, airbags are designed to be used with seat belts, and it's well known
that airbags are ineffective for the unbelted occupant. There are plenty of
studies showing that when both are used, fatalities and injuries are reduced over
seat belt only use.


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/Guide-to-transponders-in-sailplanes-2014A.pdf

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

Airbags may be good for the first hit, but they're single use......so when you hit something, and THEN another thing, you're toast since the airbag has already been deployed.

As I stated before, I have no issues with chutes.
Never needed one, glad I had it in competitions.
I will NOT frown on someone that wants one.
Some ships make it a royal PITA to wear.

[Charlie Quebec]

Liberty eh? Like free speech zones? Like Guantanamo bay? Like children in cages?
I have to say I’m all for Americans taking risks though, raises the worlds average IQ.

[[email protected]]

On Friday, August 10, 2018 at 8:22:54 PM UTC-4, John Huthmaker wrote:
> I'm just starting out with soaring. Simple question for you guys. How many of you fly with an emergency parachute? It looks like they cost around $2000 online. Pretty steep price; although the cost is insignificant if it saves your life. Is this something I should be looking to purchase?

I own my own glider and parachute and usually fly with the chute. I am also a licensed jumpmaster (or was) with a few hundred jumps, so I'm pretty comfortable jumping out of planes. I feel WAY safer wearing the chute (in gliders and planes), and I've had no comfort issues with it. I may not survive the accident (canopy jams, too low to bail out, etc.) but at least I'll have something to keep my mind occupied while I'm going down and won't feel totally helpless to save myself.

Be aware that I've had two riggers now tell me that they will not repack any rig that is more than 20 years old. There is a new legal(?) standard going around on that. A rigger showed me the printout of it, but I forgot what legal body is endorsing it. It's not official yet, but riggers are worried about being sued because of it.

A new square canopy and container is going to cost me $3-5k apparently. Ugh! Gotta pay to play.

[[email protected]]

There are riggers packing 20+ year old parachutes. Shipping is cheap compared to a new parachute. Of course if you can afford going square it is smart.

[JS[_5_]]

On Thursday, August 30, 2018 at 7:32:15 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> There are riggers packing 20+ year old parachutes. Shipping is cheap compared to a new parachute. Of course if you can afford going square it is smart.

Yet to see the 20-year rule on paper, other than something like "paraphernalia won't pack our own chutes beyond 20 years" which is their option but not a rule.

A friend just donated two 20-year-old chutes to our pilot mentoring group. I saw them opened, and the containers, harnesses and chutes looked well taken care of. Picked them up from inspection and repack a couple of days later.
This was a great donation, since the pilots learning XC do not have parachutes and the mentors fly XC with their own.
Jim

[Dan Marotta]

I got my square with container and bag for about $2,700.Â* If interested,
talk with Rigging Innovations (I'm not connected in any way).Â* I'm
extremely happy with my choice and did seven jumps to be comfortable
with the type.

On 8/30/2018 6:00 PM, wrote:
> On Friday, August 10, 2018 at 8:22:54 PM UTC-4, John Huthmaker wrote:
>> I'm just starting out with soaring. Simple question for you guys. How many of you fly with an emergency parachute? It looks like they cost around $2000 online. Pretty steep price; although the cost is insignificant if it saves your life. Is this something I should be looking to purchase?
> I own my own glider and parachute and usually fly with the chute. I am also a licensed jumpmaster (or was) with a few hundred jumps, so I'm pretty comfortable jumping out of planes. I feel WAY safer wearing the chute (in gliders and planes), and I've had no comfort issues with it. I may not survive the accident (canopy jams, too low to bail out, etc.) but at least I'll have something to keep my mind occupied while I'm going down and won't feel totally helpless to save myself.
>
> Be aware that I've had two riggers now tell me that they will not repack any rig that is more than 20 years old. There is a new legal(?) standard going around on that. A rigger showed me the printout of it, but I forgot what legal body is endorsing it. It's not official yet, but riggers are worried about being sued because of it.
>
> A new square canopy and container is going to cost me $3-5k apparently. Ugh! Gotta pay to play.
>

--
Dan, 5J

[Dan Marotta]

I believe the FAA rule is that there's no life limit on a parachute
unless it is unairworthy (by inspection) or the manufacturer specifies a
life limit at certification.Â* If your rigger won't inspect/pack your
chute due to age, find another rigger.Â* My previous round parachute was
42 years old when I removed it from service and bought a square rig.

On 8/30/2018 8:58 PM, JS wrote:
> On Thursday, August 30, 2018 at 7:32:15 PM UTC-7, wrote:
>> There are riggers packing 20+ year old parachutes. Shipping is cheap compared to a new parachute. Of course if you can afford going square it is smart.
> Yet to see the 20-year rule on paper, other than something like "paraphernalia won't pack our own chutes beyond 20 years" which is their option but not a rule.
>
> A friend just donated two 20-year-old chutes to our pilot mentoring group. I saw them opened, and the containers, harnesses and chutes looked well taken care of. Picked them up from inspection and repack a couple of days later.
> This was a great donation, since the pilots learning XC do not have parachutes and the mentors fly XC with their own.
> Jim

--
Dan, 5J

[[email protected]]

On Friday, August 31, 2018 at 11:22:54 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> I believe the FAA rule is that there's no life limit on a parachute
> unless it is unairworthy (by inspection) or the manufacturer specifies a
> life limit at certification.Â* If your rigger won't inspect/pack your
> chute due to age, find another rigger.Â* My previous round parachute was
> 42 years old when I removed it from service and bought a square rig.
>
> On 8/30/2018 8:58 PM, JS wrote:
> > On Thursday, August 30, 2018 at 7:32:15 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> >> There are riggers packing 20+ year old parachutes. Shipping is cheap compared to a new parachute. Of course if you can afford going square it is smart.
> > Yet to see the 20-year rule on paper, other than something like "paraphernalia won't pack our own chutes beyond 20 years" which is their option but not a rule.
> >
> > A friend just donated two 20-year-old chutes to our pilot mentoring group. I saw them opened, and the containers, harnesses and chutes looked well taken care of. Picked them up from inspection and repack a couple of days later.
> > This was a great donation, since the pilots learning XC do not have parachutes and the mentors fly XC with their own.
> > Jim
>
> --
> Dan, 5J

Thanks, Dan. Philosophically I agree with you, as I have jumped many old but airworthy rigs over the years.

All: I'm wondering if this is just a way for the parachute manufacturers to extract more money from us. I finally found the letter given to me by the skydiving center here in Miami. It is just an OPINION from National Parachute Industries, but it has enough weight to it that it has scared both my Miami rigger and my Pennsylvania rigger into refusing to repack it...so I need the name of a good rigger who will, if you know one.

[[email protected]]

On Friday, August 31, 2018 at 3:29:34 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> On Friday, August 31, 2018 at 11:22:54 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > I believe the FAA rule is that there's no life limit on a parachute
> > unless it is unairworthy (by inspection) or the manufacturer specifies a
> > life limit at certification.Â* If your rigger won't inspect/pack your
> > chute due to age, find another rigger.Â* My previous round parachute was
> > 42 years old when I removed it from service and bought a square rig.
> >
> > On 8/30/2018 8:58 PM, JS wrote:
> > > On Thursday, August 30, 2018 at 7:32:15 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > >> There are riggers packing 20+ year old parachutes. Shipping is cheap compared to a new parachute. Of course if you can afford going square it is smart.
> > > Yet to see the 20-year rule on paper, other than something like "paraphernalia won't pack our own chutes beyond 20 years" which is their option but not a rule.
> > >
> > > A friend just donated two 20-year-old chutes to our pilot mentoring group. I saw them opened, and the containers, harnesses and chutes looked well taken care of. Picked them up from inspection and repack a couple of days later.
> > > This was a great donation, since the pilots learning XC do not have parachutes and the mentors fly XC with their own.
> > > Jim
> >
> > --
> > Dan, 5J
>
> Thanks, Dan. Philosophically I agree with you, as I have jumped many old but airworthy rigs over the years.
>
> All: I'm wondering if this is just a way for the parachute manufacturers to extract more money from us. I finally found the letter given to me by the skydiving center here in Miami. It is just an OPINION from National Parachute Industries, but it has enough weight to it that it has scared both my Miami rigger and my Pennsylvania rigger into refusing to repack it...so I need the name of a good rigger who will, if you know one.

Contact Don for a repack http://parachuteshop.com/
And this why he deserves support
http://parachuteshop.com/service_life_limits.htm

[John Huthmaker]

On Friday, August 31, 2018 at 12:29:34 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Friday, August 31, 2018 at 11:22:54 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > I believe the FAA rule is that there's no life limit on a parachute
> > unless it is unairworthy (by inspection) or the manufacturer specifies a
> > life limit at certification.Â* If your rigger won't inspect/pack your
> > chute due to age, find another rigger.Â* My previous round parachute was
> > 42 years old when I removed it from service and bought a square rig.
> >
> > On 8/30/2018 8:58 PM, JS wrote:
> > > On Thursday, August 30, 2018 at 7:32:15 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > >> There are riggers packing 20+ year old parachutes. Shipping is cheap compared to a new parachute. Of course if you can afford going square it is smart.
> > > Yet to see the 20-year rule on paper, other than something like "paraphernalia won't pack our own chutes beyond 20 years" which is their option but not a rule.
> > >
> > > A friend just donated two 20-year-old chutes to our pilot mentoring group. I saw them opened, and the containers, harnesses and chutes looked well taken care of. Picked them up from inspection and repack a couple of days later.
> > > This was a great donation, since the pilots learning XC do not have parachutes and the mentors fly XC with their own.
> > > Jim
> >
> > --
> > Dan, 5J
>
> Thanks, Dan. Philosophically I agree with you, as I have jumped many old but airworthy rigs over the years.
>
> All: I'm wondering if this is just a way for the parachute manufacturers to extract more money from us. I finally found the letter given to me by the skydiving center here in Miami. It is just an OPINION from National Parachute Industries, but it has enough weight to it that it has scared both my Miami rigger and my Pennsylvania rigger into refusing to repack it...so I need the name of a good rigger who will, if you know one.

I'm speaking from a non expert side, but have spoken to a rigger who is going to help me find a parachute, and has provided the insight to this exact question.

As you mentioned, the 20 year lifecycle is a guideline brought to you by the manufacturers of the parachutes. It is most definitely a way of keeping a sustainable income coming in. As such the FAA doesnt view this as any sort of requirement.

On the other hand, in the European Union, they do consider the 20 year cycle as law. And if you combine those two scenarios together, it turns out there is a very good second hand market in the US for previously European owned parachutes. I'm anticipating spending ~$500-$600 for a basically never used parachute. Sure it may be 15+ years old. But as long as it inspects as mint condition, it'll be just as good as anything that is considered brand new.

You are also correct that some riggers wont pack them for whatever reason. In that case you just have to find a rigger who will. I've already worked that out, so I dont think this is going to be a problem for me.

I'm hoping to find a softie with a square parachute. Ideally one that has the cushion you can sit on.

[John Foster]

Is there any general consensus of which brand of parachute is better than others, or are they all about the same? Any thoughts regarding the MARS ATL-15 parachutes offered through wingsandwheels.com? They seem a little more affordable for a new chute.

[[email protected]]

On Friday, August 31, 2018 at 4:18:42 PM UTC-4, John Foster wrote:
> Is there any general consensus of which brand of parachute is better than others, or are they all about the same? Any thoughts regarding the MARS ATL-15 parachutes offered through wingsandwheels.com? They seem a little more affordable for a new chute.

They are all about the same. And haven't changed in 60 years hence the manufacturers desire for a life limit. If you are buying new get a square, just not worth spending that kind of money on new, really old, technology.

[WB]

On Friday, August 31, 2018 at 3:18:42 PM UTC-5, John Foster wrote:
> Is there any general consensus of which brand of parachute is better than others, or are they all about the same? Any thoughts regarding the MARS ATL-15 parachutes offered through wingsandwheels.com? They seem a little more affordable for a new chute.

You can't go wrong with a Strong! (yeah, corny, I know).

My Strong parachute is 25 years old. No problems getting it repacked, either by local riggers or by Strong. I alternate between taking my chute to the local guy and sending it to Strong for repack. Strong's customer service is first rate. They turn it around quick and have it back to me even faster than my local rigger. My next parachute will definitely be a Strong.

Oh, I also have a National that I picked up because it was a lighter then my Strong and cheap. I'm sure it's a good chute, but the harness system is kind of odd and uncomfortable and it lacks the padding of my Strong (that's why it's lighter).

[Craig Reinholt]

On Friday, August 31, 2018 at 1:18:42 PM UTC-7, John Foster wrote:
> Is there any general consensus of which brand of parachute is better than others, or are they all about the same?

It would be best to talk to a master rigger that packs lots of round chutes of all brands. Many riggers don't pack round chutes regularly and are only casually knowledgeable about them. The master rigger can give you the pros and cons of each brand. Each has it's own peculiarities.
Craig

[JS[_5_]]

On Friday, August 31, 2018 at 1:50:31 PM UTC-7, Craig Reinholt wrote:
> On Friday, August 31, 2018 at 1:18:42 PM UTC-7, John Foster wrote:
> > Is there any general consensus of which brand of parachute is better than others, or are they all about the same?
>
> It would be best to talk to a master rigger that packs lots of round chutes of all brands. Many riggers don't pack round chutes regularly and are only casually knowledgeable about them. The master rigger can give you the pros and cons of each brand. Each has it's own peculiarities.
> Craig

A lot of good info.
Agree that square chutes are the way to go. Some basic training should be done before use, a brief ground school at least. Your rigger may be able to provide this.
The basic price for National and Mars rigs seems to not have leg hardware you can release. I'd recommend "quick eject" hardware so you can get out if being dragged. This might make the price similar to others?
Perhaps the most comfortable rig I owned was ordered after taking the trailer to the manufacturer (Butler), pulling out the fuselage and sitting in the glider with a few different systems. When I sold that glider the buyers insisted on buying the chute, it was such a good fit.
Some parachute/harness/container combinations may just not fit you or the glider. You may not like the external pilot chute (Strong) or the position of the ripcord (Parachutes Australia) etc. My current (Paraphernalia) square rig is not the best in Schempp-Hirth gliders. Dan Marotta has my old one for the Nimbus (National).
Jim

[Dave Nadler]

On Friday, August 31, 2018 at 3:53:27 PM UTC-4, John Huthmaker wrote:
> I'm hoping to find a softie with a square parachute.

From discussing this with both Don Mayer and the folks at Strong:
A square chute is much more sensitive in deployment (stable and
correct attitude). Both recommend a round emergency chute for
this reason. From discussing my recent bail-out with Don,
I'd probably be dead if I'd had a square chute.

FWIW, from a guy really happy to have had a Strong round emergency chute.

Hope that helps,
Best Regards, Dave

PS: I wish I'd had the larger diameter model, landing on rocks
at 11,000 density altitude my descent rate was a bit high...

[[email protected]]

On Friday, August 31, 2018 at 5:12:31 PM UTC-4, Dave Nadler wrote:
> On Friday, August 31, 2018 at 3:53:27 PM UTC-4, John Huthmaker wrote:
> > I'm hoping to find a softie with a square parachute.
>
> From discussing this with both Don Mayer and the folks at Strong:
> A square chute is much more sensitive in deployment (stable and
> correct attitude). Both recommend a round emergency chute for
> this reason. From discussing my recent bail-out with Don,
> I'd probably be dead if I'd had a square chute.
>
> FWIW, from a guy really happy to have had a Strong round emergency chute.
>
> Hope that helps,
> Best Regards, Dave
>
> PS: I wish I'd had the larger diameter model, landing on rocks
> at 11,000 density altitude my descent rate was a bit high...

That's one thing I disagree with Don about. Student skydivers have been deploying squares from every unstable body position possible for 30 years. And the darn things still open. Unstable deployments leading to malfunctions with squares is mostly old wives tale. Instead of asking old school riggers in the pilot rig business go to a dropzone and ask an instructor for an opinion. From the folks that toss the general public(with squares) out of airplanes for a living. Buying a new round parachute is the same as buying a new wood glider.

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Friday, August 31, 2018 at 3:16:59 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Friday, August 31, 2018 at 5:12:31 PM UTC-4, Dave Nadler wrote:
> > On Friday, August 31, 2018 at 3:53:27 PM UTC-4, John Huthmaker wrote:
> > > I'm hoping to find a softie with a square parachute.
> >
> > From discussing this with both Don Mayer and the folks at Strong:
> > A square chute is much more sensitive in deployment (stable and
> > correct attitude). Both recommend a round emergency chute for
> > this reason. From discussing my recent bail-out with Don,
> > I'd probably be dead if I'd had a square chute.
> >
> > FWIW, from a guy really happy to have had a Strong round emergency chute.
> >
> > Hope that helps,
> > Best Regards, Dave
> >
> > PS: I wish I'd had the larger diameter model, landing on rocks
> > at 11,000 density altitude my descent rate was a bit high...
>
> That's one thing I disagree with Don about. Student skydivers have been deploying squares from every unstable body position possible for 30 years. And the darn things still open. Unstable deployments leading to malfunctions with squares is mostly old wives tale. Instead of asking old school riggers in the pilot rig business go to a dropzone and ask an instructor for an opinion. From the folks that toss the general public(with squares) out of airplanes for a living. Buying a new round parachute is the same as buying a new wood glider.

The market for a wooden glider dried up half a century ago. There is still a vibrant market for round e-chutes, both in the US and Europe. Does not the US military use round chutes for aviators?

[Dave Nadler]

> That's one thing I disagree with Don about....

Where I'm not personally expert,
I consult with multiple people who are,
and take their advice when it's consistent.

Are you as expert as Don, or the folks at Strong??

[[email protected]]

On Friday, August 31, 2018 at 9:11:27 PM UTC-4, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> On Friday, August 31, 2018 at 3:16:59 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > On Friday, August 31, 2018 at 5:12:31 PM UTC-4, Dave Nadler wrote:
> > > On Friday, August 31, 2018 at 3:53:27 PM UTC-4, John Huthmaker wrote:
> > > > I'm hoping to find a softie with a square parachute.
> > >
> > > From discussing this with both Don Mayer and the folks at Strong:
> > > A square chute is much more sensitive in deployment (stable and
> > > correct attitude). Both recommend a round emergency chute for
> > > this reason. From discussing my recent bail-out with Don,
> > > I'd probably be dead if I'd had a square chute.
> > >
> > > FWIW, from a guy really happy to have had a Strong round emergency chute.
> > >
> > > Hope that helps,
> > > Best Regards, Dave
> > >
> > > PS: I wish I'd had the larger diameter model, landing on rocks
> > > at 11,000 density altitude my descent rate was a bit high...
> >
> > That's one thing I disagree with Don about. Student skydivers have been deploying squares from every unstable body position possible for 30 years.. And the darn things still open. Unstable deployments leading to malfunctions with squares is mostly old wives tale. Instead of asking old school riggers in the pilot rig business go to a dropzone and ask an instructor for an opinion. From the folks that toss the general public(with squares) out of airplanes for a living. Buying a new round parachute is the same as buying a new wood glider.
>
> The market for a wooden glider dried up half a century ago. There is still a vibrant market for round e-chutes, both in the US and Europe. Does not the US military use round chutes for aviators?

Glider pilots at the Air Force Academy use squares. Ejection seats still have rounds I believe but that is probably because the R&D money on staging deployments from 0-1,000 mph has already been spent. Paratroopers really aren't being used anymore but if you think rounds are sound look up the percentage of young healthy paratroopers that they don't expect to be able to fight post jump.

[[email protected]]

On Friday, August 31, 2018 at 9:18:13 PM UTC-4, Dave Nadler wrote:
> > That's one thing I disagree with Don about....
>
> Where I'm not personally expert,
> I consult with multiple people who are,
> and take their advice when it's consistent.
>
> Are you as expert as Don, or the folks at Strong??

I have a few thousand jumps was a skydiving instructor(AFF and Tandem) and am a CFI(helicopters and gliders.) Started jumping when there were still some round reserves in use, I've seen enough to know I don't want to use a round. Perfectly fine with jumping a square. And I've taught enough people in both disciplines to believe glider pilots can manage a square parachute.. Student skydivers, with all of the performance limitations imposed by fear, manage square parachutes after half a day of training. I'm not in the parachute business I promote squares because I believe they are safer for us. Next time you are at Pepperell walk over to the jumpschool and talk to some instructors, ask their opinion.

[[email protected]]

> Contact Don for a repack http://parachuteshop.com/
> And this why he deserves support
> http://parachuteshop.com/service_life_limits.htm

Thanks, Gregg. I will.

[Dan Marotta]

On 8/31/2018 7:35 PM, wrote:
> with all of the performance limitations imposed by fear, manage square parachutes after half a day of training.

That's a big deal.Â* I only made seven jumps (IAD) and I was scared
****less on the ride up every time, but I found that once I had both
feet out the door, the fear was gone and I had no trouble at all with
clearing minor malfunctions and flying a landing pattern just like in a
glider (which the square parachute is).Â* I found that I was pretty much
a passenger under a round canopy, but a pilot under a square.
--
Dan, 5J

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Friday, August 31, 2018 at 6:35:38 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Friday, August 31, 2018 at 9:18:13 PM UTC-4, Dave Nadler wrote:
> > > That's one thing I disagree with Don about....
> >
> > Where I'm not personally expert,
> > I consult with multiple people who are,
> > and take their advice when it's consistent.
> >
> > Are you as expert as Don, or the folks at Strong??
>
> I have a few thousand jumps was a skydiving instructor(AFF and Tandem) and am a CFI(helicopters and gliders.) Started jumping when there were still some round reserves in use, I've seen enough to know I don't want to use a round. Perfectly fine with jumping a square. And I've taught enough people in both disciplines to believe glider pilots can manage a square parachute. Student skydivers, with all of the performance limitations imposed by fear, manage square parachutes after half a day of training. I'm not in the parachute business I promote squares because I believe they are safer for us. Next time you are at Pepperell walk over to the jumpschool and talk to some instructors, ask their opinion.

I have no jump experience, and would like to keep it that way! Allan Sliver explained to me that if you are not planning on doing the training and a few actual jumps then the square can get you in big trouble, this is why they use rounds for loads such as cargo. Dan Marotta went and got the training and even did a few jumps. A lot of the glider pilots I know have not had any training other than reading a few articles or hangar flying. It is a risk vs reward. I can use a round with verbal, or instructional video training. Or I can practice bleeding. Take the risk at my newly earned senior citizen status of actually jumping out of a perfectly good aircraft. This is all for the extremely small chance I might need a chute. Could this be akin to learning to suture yourself when you can buy Qwik Cot. At this point in life am inclined to leave the actual jumping to a real emergency.

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Saturday, September 1, 2018 at 7:14:19 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> On 8/31/2018 7:35 PM, wrote:
> > with all of the performance limitations imposed by fear, manage square parachutes after half a day of training.
>
> That's a big deal.Â* I only made seven jumps (IAD) and I was scared
> ****less on the ride up every time, but I found that once I had both
> feet out the door, the fear was gone and I had no trouble at all with
> clearing minor malfunctions and flying a landing pattern just like in a
> glider (which the square parachute is).Â* I found that I was pretty much
> a passenger under a round canopy, but a pilot under a square.
> --
> Dan, 5J

Found this thread from 2002 on drop zone: http://www.dropzone.com/forum/Skydiving_C1/Gear_and_Rigging_F6/Squares_for_pilot_emergency_parachutes_P88229/

[Chris Rowland[_2_]]

At 21:12 31 August 2018, Dave Nadler wrote:
>On Friday, August 31, 2018 at 3:53:27 PM UTC-4, John Huthmaker wrote:
>> I'm hoping to find a softie with a square parachute.
>
>From discussing this with both Don Mayer and the folks at Strong:
>A square chute is much more sensitive in deployment (stable and
>correct attitude). Both recommend a round emergency chute for
>this reason. From discussing my recent bail-out with Don,
>I'd probably be dead if I'd had a square chute.
>
>FWIW, from a guy really happy to have had a Strong round emergency chute.
>
>Hope that helps,
>Best Regards, Dave
>
>PS: I wish I'd had the larger diameter model, landing on rocks
>at 11,000 density altitude my descent rate was a bit high...
>
AFAIK all the chutes for space probes and landing capsules are round.
Sometimes multiple round chutes. This is probably the application that
most needs reliability in adverse conditions above all.

Chris

[Mike Borgelt[_2_]]

My wife and I wear our National chutes in our BD-4, just like we used to in the Nimbus 3DM.
Doors are top hinged (not as originally designed). Easy to get out. Get rid of headsets, open doors, undo harness, roll off seats behind landing gear legs.
I figure there are a whole bunch of mishaps where we won't be around in the airplane.

Mike

[Anthony McDermott]

At 00:22 11 August 2018, John Huthmaker wrote:
>I'm just starting out with soaring. Simple question for you guys. How
>man=
>y of you fly with an emergency parachute? It looks like they cost around
>$=
>2000 online. Pretty steep price; although the cost is insignificant if
it
>=
>saves your life. Is this something I should be looking to purchase?
>

Absolutely wear a parachute. Skydivers carry a reserve because they
recognise that, occasionally, main parachutes fail. Our main parachute is
the glider and we all know that, occasionally they also fail
(mid-air/rigging failure/lightning strike etc). A few years ago, I came off
AT and climbed to 3k and switched to the XC frequency. I immediately heard
"Mayday, Mayday, two gliders collided and I see one parachute".
Subsequently, I found out both pilots survived, the second pilot managed to
land his glider.
Enough said I think!

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Sun, 04 Nov 2018 16:58:07 +0000, Anthony McDermott wrote:

> At 00:22 11 August 2018, John Huthmaker wrote:
>>I'm just starting out with soaring. Simple question for you guys. How
>>man=
>>y of you fly with an emergency parachute? It looks like they cost
>>around $=
>>2000 online. Pretty steep price; although the cost is insignificant if
> it
>>=
>>saves your life. Is this something I should be looking to purchase?
>>
>>
> Absolutely wear a parachute. Skydivers carry a reserve because they
> recognise that, occasionally, main parachutes fail. Our main parachute
> is the glider and we all know that, occasionally they also fail
> (mid-air/rigging failure/lightning strike etc). A few years ago, I came
> off AT and climbed to 3k and switched to the XC frequency. I immediately
> heard "Mayday, Mayday, two gliders collided and I see one parachute".
> Subsequently, I found out both pilots survived, the second pilot managed
> to land his glider.
> Enough said I think!

Fully agree. In my club nobody flies without one, be they trial flighters,
ab initios, instructors or just plain members.

I wasn't yet flying in 1999 when the Dunstable ASK-21 got destroyed by a
lightning strike at 2500 AGL, but both its pilots were wearing parachutes
and both survived. When I started learning in 2000 everybody in my club
was using parachutes for all flying[1] and fairly soon this was the norm
for all UK clubs.

[1] the exception was flying in our Slingsby T.21. I'm unsure of the
rationale for this: it seems to be some combination of: extreme
discomfort flying it in a 'chute and/or difficulty in getting out due the
the cockpit being under the wing leading edge.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[[email protected]]

On Friday, August 31, 2018 at 1:44:22 PM UTC-7, WB wrote:
> On Friday, August 31, 2018 at 3:18:42 PM UTC-5, John Foster wrote:
> > Is there any general consensus of which brand of parachute is better than others, or are they all about the same? Any thoughts regarding the MARS ATL-15 parachutes offered through wingsandwheels.com? They seem a little more affordable for a new chute.
>
> You can't go wrong with a Strong! (yeah, corny, I know).
>
> My Strong parachute is 25 years old. No problems getting it repacked, either by local riggers or by Strong. I alternate between taking my chute to the local guy and sending it to Strong for repack. Strong's customer service is first rate. They turn it around quick and have it back to me even faster than my local rigger. My next parachute will definitely be a Strong.
>
> Oh, I also have a National that I picked up because it was a lighter then my Strong and cheap. I'm sure it's a good chute, but the harness system is kind of odd and uncomfortable and it lacks the padding of my Strong (that's why it's lighter).


There is no FAA regulation limiting parachute life. Even when my Strong was 30 years old, each time I got it repacked the packer told me (I asked) it was 'like new'. I also once had a flying layoff for a few years, then when I got it repacked, I asked the packer if it would have opened. He said 'of course'. I packed mine once each year, which meant I went slightly over the 6-month FAA rule. I dealt with that by sticking a piece of tape with 'inoperable/not available for emergency use' written on it on the chute.

[John Huthmaker]

Figured I'd update everyone on this. I took the plunge maybe 2 months ago and purchased a used parachute. Its a Softie Mini. The gentleman saw this post and reached out to me directly. By pure coincidence he is a former member of the flying club I am flying with.

The day that it arrived (back home), I was over in the UK for work. I found a very cool glider club not too far from where I was staying. They let me join the club for the day (well month technically) and I got to do two winch launches. It was really good fun. But they all flew with parachutes, and let me use one they had at the club. They mentioned the lighting strike incident being the primary reason everyone in the UK uses them. Honestly I dont really get why you wouldnt. They're not really uncomfortable.

When I got the parachute the log showed it had only been repacked twice. The first at the factory and then one other time. Its about 16 years old or so, and hadnt had a repack in over a decade. But it looked/looks basically brand new. I flew with it the first chance I could figuring it was better as is than none at all. But at the end of that day I took it for its 3rd ever repack. I just picked it up today and went out with it again.

I'm very happy I made the purchase. In fact I plan to go back in to flying power planes, and eventually build myself an RV7. If/when that happens, I'll get an extra one for a passenger to use.

[[email protected]]

On Monday, 5 November 2018 04:51:41 UTC, John Huthmaker wrote:
> Figured I'd update everyone on this. I took the plunge maybe 2 months ago and purchased a used parachute. Its a Softie Mini. The gentleman saw this post and reached out to me directly. By pure coincidence he is a former member of the flying club I am flying with.
>
> The day that it arrived (back home), I was over in the UK for work. I found a very cool glider club not too far from where I was staying. They let me join the club for the day (well month technically) and I got to do two winch launches. It was really good fun. But they all flew with parachutes, and let me use one they had at the club. They mentioned the lighting strike incident being the primary reason everyone in the UK uses them. Honestly I dont really get why you wouldnt. They're not really uncomfortable.
>
> When I got the parachute the log showed it had only been repacked twice. The first at the factory and then one other time. Its about 16 years old or so, and hadnt had a repack in over a decade. But it looked/looks basically brand new. I flew with it the first chance I could figuring it was better as is than none at all. But at the end of that day I took it for its 3rd ever repack. I just picked it up today and went out with it again.
>
> I'm very happy I made the purchase. In fact I plan to go back in to flying power planes, and eventually build myself an RV7. If/when that happens, I'll get an extra one for a passenger to use.

Most people in the UK were using parachutes long before the Dunstable incident. Without a parachute a great many people don't fit well into many gliders as the seat pans take wearing a parachute into account. This isn't the case with many older wood designs.

[krasw]

On Monday, 5 November 2018 06:51:41 UTC+2, John Huthmaker wrote:
> Figured I'd update everyone on this. I took the plunge maybe 2 months ago and purchased a used parachute. Its a Softie Mini. The gentleman saw this post and reached out to me directly. By pure coincidence he is a former member of the flying club I am flying with.
>
> The day that it arrived (back home), I was over in the UK for work. I found a very cool glider club not too far from where I was staying. They let me join the club for the day (well month technically) and I got to do two winch launches. It was really good fun. But they all flew with parachutes, and let me use one they had at the club. They mentioned the lighting strike incident being the primary reason everyone in the UK uses them. Honestly I dont really get why you wouldnt. They're not really uncomfortable.
>
> When I got the parachute the log showed it had only been repacked twice. The first at the factory and then one other time. Its about 16 years old or so, and hadnt had a repack in over a decade. But it looked/looks basically brand new. I flew with it the first chance I could figuring it was better as is than none at all. But at the end of that day I took it for its 3rd ever repack. I just picked it up today and went out with it again.
>
> I'm very happy I made the purchase. In fact I plan to go back in to flying power planes, and eventually build myself an RV7. If/when that happens, I'll get an extra one for a passenger to use.

My parachute's repacking interval is 8 months, some have only 6 months. You got to do it more often, canopy fabric needs to dry out completely annually, rubber bands holding the lines become fragile etc.

[Jason Leonard]

I'm curious if there's a rigger anywhere around the Vero Beach to Palm Beach area. If you have contact information as well that would be great. Obviously I only want to use a certified packer.

I know this is a long shot and the answer is probably a glaring "no", but are there parachutes for children or small adults? Or, better way to ask: what is the smallest person a parachute that is made for by the major brands such as Softie, National, etc? I'll handle the mental capacity aspects of this situation. I've already begun speaking with them about it.

My 8 year old asked me "Dad, why don't you wear a parachute?" I told him I will when I get the airplane (came with 2 chutes). I also told him I wouldn't wear it if I'm flying with him. He looked confused and asked why not. "If something happened that I needed to bail out while flying with you, I would not bail out and leave you. I will never leave you." He gulped. I think he got it. He got it so far as an 8 year old could get it. We talked some more about it being fun but also very serious. I think he got it. He isn't big enough for a parachute yet, but I sure want to get whatever DOES exist for when he gets big enough to fit one. So what's out there? I'll deal with the capacity issue as it can be handled.

Thanks everyone.

[Gregg Ballou[_2_]]

On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 6:06:28 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> I'm curious if there's a rigger anywhere around the Vero Beach to Palm Beach area. If you have contact information as well that would be great. Obviously I only want to use a certified packer.
>
> I know this is a long shot and the answer is probably a glaring "no", but are there parachutes for children or small adults? Or, better way to ask: what is the smallest person a parachute that is made for by the major brands such as Softie, National, etc? I'll handle the mental capacity aspects of this situation. I've already begun speaking with them about it.
>
> My 8 year old asked me "Dad, why don't you wear a parachute?" I told him I will when I get the airplane (came with 2 chutes). I also told him I wouldn't wear it if I'm flying with him. He looked confused and asked why not. "If something happened that I needed to bail out while flying with you, I would not bail out and leave you. I will never leave you." He gulped. I think he got it. He got it so far as an 8 year old could get it. We talked some more about it being fun but also very serious. I think he got it. He isn't big enough for a parachute yet, but I sure want to get whatever DOES exist for when he gets big enough to fit one. So what's out there? I'll deal with the capacity issue as it can be handled.
>
> Thanks everyone.
Most of the parachute industry is in FL. If it can be done someone in FL can do it. How much flying are you actually going to be doing with your kid? Might be sensible to fly without the parachutes and take the risk. I'd guess the risk of not having a parachute isn't that much greater than the risk of an eight year old failing to successfully use a parachute if one was needed.

[Jason Leonard]

Agreed, and that's why I was not inquiring about his mental capacity and just focusing on the physical sizes for now.

It's not just my 8 year old. I have a 10 year old as well, and they're growing like weeds in many ways. They will eventually be ready to wear one mentally and physically, so I'd like to have a chute for them when those two things collide.... see what I did there? They will likely be my #1 passengers.. They are great aviators so far. They are fantastic doing the sim stuff, and really good at our club. My 10 year old outsoared me and I still haven't beaten him. They're really good, and that's coming from a biased 10,500 hour pilot who daily gets to witness other pilots abilities. For their age they're ahead of the curve (obviously I'm biased there). Whether it's natural or paternal doesn't really matter. I just want it to be there when they can fit in one, and by that time, I'd imagine they will be mentally ready to be trained to use one as well.

So what size of a person will smaller chutes fit? And what are some manufacturers who could take this question more accurately? I'd like them being equipped when they are mentally and physically ready. If the equipment is there and they see it and fit into it: One day they will be mentally ready as well. Or maybe the other way around will happen first. And that's what I'm trying to find out.

[Gregg Ballou[_2_]]

On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 7:14:12 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> Agreed, and that's why I was not inquiring about his mental capacity and just focusing on the physical sizes for now.
>
> It's not just my 8 year old. I have a 10 year old as well, and they're growing like weeds in many ways. They will eventually be ready to wear one mentally and physically, so I'd like to have a chute for them when those two things collide.... see what I did there? They will likely be my #1 passengers. They are great aviators so far. They are fantastic doing the sim stuff, and really good at our club. My 10 year old outsoared me and I still haven't beaten him. They're really good, and that's coming from a biased 10,500 hour pilot who daily gets to witness other pilots abilities. For their age they're ahead of the curve (obviously I'm biased there). Whether it's natural or paternal doesn't really matter. I just want it to be there when they can fit in one, and by that time, I'd imagine they will be mentally ready to be trained to use one as well.
>
> So what size of a person will smaller chutes fit? And what are some manufacturers who could take this question more accurately? I'd like them being equipped when they are mentally and physically ready. If the equipment is there and they see it and fit into it: One day they will be mentally ready as well. Or maybe the other way around will happen first. And that's what I'm trying to find out.
Give Strong enterprises a call and give Rigging Innovations a call. They can build small harnesses, kids that age do tandems outside of the USA, but there is an issue of going much smaller than the backpack. Possible to fall out of an oversized parachute harness butt first, rare, but it happens once in a while. Also the parachute can be built with some adjustability, might not be enough to cover all of their growth but should get you a few years. I'd plan on putting a static line to the glider as well.

[George Haeh]

There was a midair between an ASK-21 and towplane in Canada a year and a half ago. The towplane made it back to the runway. Sadly, the instructor and student made no attempt to use the chutes they were wearing. You won't have the time to brief a bailout at 2000' AGL. Best done on the ground.

[Tony[_7_]]

On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 7:30:52 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> There was a midair between an ASK-21 and towplane in Canada a year and a half ago. The towplane made it back to the runway. Sadly, the instructor and student made no attempt to use the chutes they were wearing. You won't have the time to brief a bailout at 2000' AGL. Best done on the ground.
Jbl, if you're just trying to find a local rigger check the Sebastian and Clewiston drop zones. Chuter's in DeLand is great, but Lake Wales and Dunn Airpark would still be closer.

[Jason Leonard]

<Jbl, if you're just trying to find a local rigger check the Sebastian and Clewiston drop zones. Chuter's in DeLand is great, but Lake Wales and Dunn Airpark would still be closer.>



Thank you SGS. I will do that!

[Jason Leonard]

> Give Strong enterprises a call and give Rigging Innovations a call. They can build small harnesses, kids that age do tandems outside of the USA, but there is an issue of going much smaller than the backpack. Possible to fall out of an oversized parachute harness butt first, rare, but it happens once in a while. Also the parachute can be built with some adjustability, might not be enough to cover all of their growth but should get you a few years. I'd plan on putting a static line to the glider as well.<

Thank you Greg for the reply and direction. Yes a static line seems logical for nearly all of us. Dave Nadler’s “bailout� near fail seems like an excellent argument for all of us. After his story of being 1 second to impact when he luckily pulled the D ring is a solid reason to do it for both of us. Between that and his Spot not being stitched to the parachute straps...

It *would* be my luck that I’d be jumping out of my beloved glider and get knocked out. So a static line is happening for everyone who rides and it’ll be setup so we can step out, then turn and unhook, that way we train our brains how to get out every single time. Big benefit is it takes care of my boys being physically capable of pulling the D ring. If they can get out: there is hope. That’s what I’m looking for. Thank you!

Jason
“JL�

[George Haeh]

After seeing Nadler's talk, I discussed a static line with my master rigger.. It seems there's no simple way to set up a static line for the chutes most of us use where the ripcord normally goes over the shoulder to the release. Static lines require a different routing.

[Gregg Ballou[_2_]]

On Sunday, February 14, 2021 at 10:19:15 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> After seeing Nadler's talk, I discussed a static line with my master rigger. It seems there's no simple way to set up a static line for the chutes most of us use where the ripcord normally goes over the shoulder to the release. Static lines require a different routing.
Can some Europeans weigh in here, I understand most of them run the static line direct to the ripcord handle. That is not how you would do military/old school skydiving static line systems but will work fine in a glider. Guessing your rigger is hung up on how student and military static line systems work. Ask a European glider pilot or call a glider manufacturer that puts the anchor hooks in and ask them how they expect it to be set up.

[AS]

On Sunday, February 14, 2021 at 10:42:51 AM UTC-5, Gregg Ballou wrote:
> On Sunday, February 14, 2021 at 10:19:15 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> > After seeing Nadler's talk, I discussed a static line with my master rigger. It seems there's no simple way to set up a static line for the chutes most of us use where the ripcord normally goes over the shoulder to the release. Static lines require a different routing.
> Can some Europeans weigh in here, I understand most of them run the static line direct to the ripcord handle. That is not how you would do military/old school skydiving static line systems but will work fine in a glider. Guessing your rigger is hung up on how student and military static line systems work. Ask a European glider pilot or call a glider manufacturer that puts the anchor hooks in and ask them how they expect it to be set up.

>> I understand most of them run the static line direct to the ripcord handle. <<
NOOOOOOO - the static line does NOT attach to the D-Handle!!!
A static line chute has the static line stored within the container which deploys the main chute. The ones I am familiar with would have the canopy in a separate container. When the static line goes tight, that container stays at the end of the line until the risers are fully deployed. Then the canopy is released. It is an almost bulletproof way of getting the chute out and deployed without tangles. I have witnessed an instructor and student bail out of a L13 which lost a wing in mid-flight. Both made it out and down safely on their 26ft round static line chutes.

Uli
'AS'

[Dan Marotta]

In the older military ejection seats that I flew, the "zero delay
lanyard" connects the seat to the D-ring. The pilot connects and
disconnects it when passing through 10,000 feet. Connected below,
disconnected when above. With the lanyard connected, when the pilot
separates from the seat, the D-ring is pulled.

To do this in a glider, I would want a static line of considerable
length to ensure good separation from the glider. I wouldn't be too
concerned about the D-ring getting pulled when considering the alternative.

Dan
5J

On 2/14/21 9:44 AM, AS wrote:
> On Sunday, February 14, 2021 at 10:42:51 AM UTC-5, Gregg Ballou wrote:
>> On Sunday, February 14, 2021 at 10:19:15 AM UTC-5, wrote:
>>> After seeing Nadler's talk, I discussed a static line with my master rigger. It seems there's no simple way to set up a static line for the chutes most of us use where the ripcord normally goes over the shoulder to the release. Static lines require a different routing.
>> Can some Europeans weigh in here, I understand most of them run the static line direct to the ripcord handle. That is not how you would do military/old school skydiving static line systems but will work fine in a glider. Guessing your rigger is hung up on how student and military static line systems work. Ask a European glider pilot or call a glider manufacturer that puts the anchor hooks in and ask them how they expect it to be set up.
>
>>> I understand most of them run the static line direct to the ripcord handle. <<
> NOOOOOOO - the static line does NOT attach to the D-Handle!!!
> A static line chute has the static line stored within the container which deploys the main chute. The ones I am familiar with would have the canopy in a separate container. When the static line goes tight, that container stays at the end of the line until the risers are fully deployed. Then the canopy is released. It is an almost bulletproof way of getting the chute out and deployed without tangles. I have witnessed an instructor and student bail out of a L13 which lost a wing in mid-flight. Both made it out and down safely on their 26ft round static line chutes.
>
> Uli
> 'AS'
>

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Sun, 14 Feb 2021 10:03:37 -0700, Dan Marotta wrote:

> To do this in a glider, I would want a static line of considerable
> length to ensure good separation from the glider. I wouldn't be too
> concerned about the D-ring getting pulled when considering the
> alternative.
>
I've flown a total of two flights with a static line, both at the
Waserkuppe. The first was a checkride in an ASK-21, the second was solo
in an ASK-23. It was a while back, but IIRC the static line was 5m long
and attached directly to the part of the parachute harness that contains
the canopy. An essential part of the pre-flight briefing was "after
landing, remember to take the chute off BEFORE walking away from the
glider".

I'd surprised if anybody recommended attaching the static line to the D-
ring because:

- the D-ring pull direction is almost directly opposite what you'd
expect from a static line

- there'd be a good chance getting the static line wound round your
neck as you exit the glider.

- the static line remains attached to the glider. From memory the clip
at the glider end is similar to that on a parachute harness.

--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[Dan Marotta]

Well, what would you prefer when you're knocked unconscious during an
emergency exit, a static line connected to the D-ring, or nothing?

Personally, I don't worry about it. If I'm conscious, I'll pull the
D-ring, otherwise... But, how many deaths have occurred because a
glider pilot was knocked unconscious during an emergency egress?

Waiting for the customary "One death is too many" comeback...

Dan
5J

On 2/14/21 10:58 AM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Feb 2021 10:03:37 -0700, Dan Marotta wrote:
>
>> To do this in a glider, I would want a static line of considerable
>> length to ensure good separation from the glider. I wouldn't be too
>> concerned about the D-ring getting pulled when considering the
>> alternative.
>>
> I've flown a total of two flights with a static line, both at the
> Waserkuppe. The first was a checkride in an ASK-21, the second was solo
> in an ASK-23. It was a while back, but IIRC the static line was 5m long
> and attached directly to the part of the parachute harness that contains
> the canopy. An essential part of the pre-flight briefing was "after
> landing, remember to take the chute off BEFORE walking away from the
> glider".
>
> I'd surprised if anybody recommended attaching the static line to the D-
> ring because:
>
> - the D-ring pull direction is almost directly opposite what you'd
> expect from a static line
>
> - there'd be a good chance getting the static line wound round your
> neck as you exit the glider.
>
> - the static line remains attached to the glider. From memory the clip
> at the glider end is similar to that on a parachute harness.
>

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Sun, 14 Feb 2021 11:17:26 -0700, Dan Marotta wrote:

> Well, what would you prefer when you're knocked unconscious during an
> emergency exit, a static line connected to the D-ring, or nothing?
>
Well, having flown with both but jumped with neither, a static line seems
like a reasonable idea provided its not tied to a D-ring on the chute.
Of course, the one time a static line is unlikely to work is when the
glider is diving vertically as opposed to spinning or gliding around
upside down because you *must* fall faster than the aircraft for the
static line to work. How common, if at all, is this type of crash unless
the glider is in a spiral dive or has jammed controls?


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[Dan Marotta]

Considering the parasite drag of the human body versus that of the
glider, I don't think separation is a big problem.

Dan
5J



On 2/14/21 11:50 AM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Feb 2021 11:17:26 -0700, Dan Marotta wrote:
>
>> Well, what would you prefer when you're knocked unconscious during an
>> emergency exit, a static line connected to the D-ring, or nothing?
>>
> Well, having flown with both but jumped with neither, a static line seems
> like a reasonable idea provided its not tied to a D-ring on the chute.
> Of course, the one time a static line is unlikely to work is when the
> glider is diving vertically as opposed to spinning or gliding around
> upside down because you *must* fall faster than the aircraft for the
> static line to work. How common, if at all, is this type of crash unless
> the glider is in a spiral dive or has jammed controls?
>
>

[Semantics Michael]

On Sunday, February 14, 2021 at 3:20:35 PM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
> But, how many deaths have occurred because a
>glider pilot was knocked unconscious during an emergency egress?

....um, you're a bright guy so we'll assume you meant this as a funny. However, in Mr. Nadler's case as I recall he came real close and fortunately lived to tell his tail.

[2G]

On Sunday, February 14, 2021 at 3:54:00 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> On Sunday, February 14, 2021 at 3:20:35 PM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > But, how many deaths have occurred because a
> >glider pilot was knocked unconscious during an emergency egress?
>
> ...um, you're a bright guy so we'll assume you meant this as a funny. However, in Mr. Nadler's case as I recall he came real close and fortunately lived to tell his tail.

I think you mean he saved his tail so he could tell his tale.

[kinsell]

On 2/16/21 3:53 PM, 2G wrote:
> On Sunday, February 14, 2021 at 3:54:00 PM UTC-8, wrote:
>> On Sunday, February 14, 2021 at 3:20:35 PM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
>>> But, how many deaths have occurred because a
>>> glider pilot was knocked unconscious during an emergency egress?
>>
>> ...um, you're a bright guy so we'll assume you meant this as a funny. However, in Mr. Nadler's case as I recall he came real close and fortunately lived to tell his tail.
>
> I think you mean he saved his tail so he could tell his tale.
>

You just have to watch out for that canopy. He nearly cooked his Goose.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPnioAuuUnM

P.S. that was a joke

[2G]

On Tuesday, February 16, 2021 at 4:07:48 PM UTC-8, kinsell wrote:
> On 2/16/21 3:53 PM, 2G wrote:
> > On Sunday, February 14, 2021 at 3:54:00 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> >> On Sunday, February 14, 2021 at 3:20:35 PM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
> >>> But, how many deaths have occurred because a
> >>> glider pilot was knocked unconscious during an emergency egress?
> >>
> >> ...um, you're a bright guy so we'll assume you meant this as a funny. However, in Mr. Nadler's case as I recall he came real close and fortunately lived to tell his tail.
> >
> > I think you mean he saved his tail so he could tell his tale.
> >
> You just have to watch out for that canopy. He nearly cooked his Goose.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPnioAuuUnM
>
> P.S. that was a joke

That is what the Piggott hook is for: to keep you from being knocked on the noggin by the departing canopy. Unfortunately, we have no idea what knocked Dave out.

Tom

[b4soaring]

On Thursday, 18 February 2021 at 00:21:33 UTC, 2G wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 16, 2021 at 4:07:48 PM UTC-8, kinsell wrote:
> > On 2/16/21 3:53 PM, 2G wrote:
> > > On Sunday, February 14, 2021 at 3:54:00 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> > >> On Sunday, February 14, 2021 at 3:20:35 PM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > >>> But, how many deaths have occurred because a
> > >>> glider pilot was knocked unconscious during an emergency egress?
> > >>
> > >> ...um, you're a bright guy so we'll assume you meant this as a funny. However, in Mr. Nadler's case as I recall he came real close and fortunately lived to tell his tail.
> > >
> > > I think you mean he saved his tail so he could tell his tale.
> > >
> > You just have to watch out for that canopy. He nearly cooked his Goose.
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPnioAuuUnM
> >
> > P.S. that was a joke
> That is what the Piggott hook is for: to keep you from being knocked on the noggin by the departing canopy. Unfortunately, we have no idea what knocked Dave out.
>
> Tom

Credit where credit is due, the Roeger hook is for the canopy, a Piggott hook is for the airbrakes.