Advice re. Nimbus 3 OR 4Dt?

[John McLaughlin]

I'm just coming back into gliding after a long time grounded and I'm
looking to buy a glider over the winter. A two seater seems a nice idea and

the Nimbus seems to be a lot of glider for the money.

Are they in any way difficult or unpleasant to fly? I know there have been

structural failures due to loss of control.

Are they difficult or heavy to rig?

Maintenance issues? Airframe life issues?

How much would insurance typically cost - a two seater has to cost more
than a single seater?

Is winch launching unwise? Is it best to stick to a tarmac runway?

Any advice greatly appreciated, thanks.

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

Get the 4Dt. The Nimbus 3 D, while goes well it is not nearly as nice a flyer than the 4D. The 3D has virtually no control force feedback so the stick is like a wet noodle, way worse than a bell 206.

[Peter F[_2_]]

Each point in turn...

A high performance 2-seater *is* a nice idea

There's a reason why the N3D / N4D / ASH25 sell for not a lot of money.
It's the Duo Discus, a glider that proved a high performance 2-seater could
actually be nice to fly.
Apart from straight line best L/D the Duo beats the old open ships in every
respect.

Difficult to fly - No
Unpleasant - Fairly

Loss of control - If you point a heavy, slippery glider with very long
wings straight down it's gonna get very quick very quick.

Difficult to rig no, heavy yes.

Maintenance issues, not really

Insurance for a 70,000 Euro 2-Seater will probably be less tha a 150,000
Euro single seater.

Should be no problems with winching N3D / N4D / ASH / Duo with modern
powerful winches

PF


At 11:22 20 August 2018, John McLaughlin wrote:
>I'm just coming back into gliding after a long time grounded and I'm
>looking to buy a glider over the winter. A two seater seems a nice idea
an
>
>the Nimbus seems to be a lot of glider for the money.
>
>Are they in any way difficult or unpleasant to fly? I know there have bee
>
>structural failures due to loss of control.
>
>Are they difficult or heavy to rig?
>
>Maintenance issues? Airframe life issues?
>
>How much would insurance typically cost - a two seater has to cost more
>than a single seater?
>
>Is winch launching unwise? Is it best to stick to a tarmac runway?
>
>Any advice greatly appreciated, thanks.
>
>

[Alex[_6_]]

We had a Nimbus 3D in our club.

Rigging is fairly easy, but time consuming because of the number of parts and control connections. The inner wing weighs roughly 85kg, which is fairly heavy but it is at least not very big.

The Nimbus surely is not a beginners glider but really nothing to be afraid of. Control responsiveness is slow but effective. Stick forces are normal and not particularly heavy (as in the single-seater Nimbus 3). Landing flaps and effective spoilers allow for good approach control (better than you would expect from such a large glider).

There are some quirks: In landing flap configuration the aileron effectiveness is reduced. Especially in cross wind conditions you better land in thermalling flaps (which works absolutely fine). With full water ballast the wings loose some ground clearance. On aerotows keeping the wings level requires some attention. Also on landing I came across some club members who had consistent difficulties keeping the wings level.

Winch launching without water was never an issue and common practice at our club. But, you really don't want to drop a wing!

The series of structural failures with Nimbus are all(?) related to high altitude high speed flying. I would not worry too much unless you plan to go booming around Africa, Australia or western US.

Maintenance scales with the glider. Lot's of parts and fittings which will wear and need your attention sooner or later. Especially on used gliders the small issues have often started to pile up and keep you busy.

From a design perspective the Nimbus is pretty robust. The tailplane is the mediocre Schempp-Hirth design and the water ballast will start leaking sooner or later (as in most gliders). The outer spoiler cables tend to break or lose their adjustment. Other than that the Nimbus is just a bigger Janus/Duo Discus, which are both proven and popular designs.

[Paul T[_4_]]

At 16:21 20 August 2018, Alex wrote:
>We had a Nimbus 3D in our club.
>
>Rigging is fairly easy, but time consuming because of the number of
parts
>a=
>nd control connections. The inner wing weighs roughly 85kg, which is
>fairly=
> heavy but it is at least not very big.
>
>The Nimbus surely is not a beginners glider but really nothing to be
>afraid=
> of. Control responsiveness is slow but effective. Stick forces are
normal
>=
>and not particularly heavy (as in the single-seater Nimbus 3). Landing
>flap=
>s and effective spoilers allow for good approach control (better than
you
>w=
>ould expect from such a large glider).
>
>There are some quirks: In landing flap configuration the aileron
>effectiven=
>ess is reduced. Especially in cross wind conditions you better land in
>ther=
>malling flaps (which works absolutely fine). With full water ballast the
>wi=
>ngs loose some ground clearance. On aerotows keeping the wings
level
>requi=
>res some attention. Also on landing I came across some club members
who
>had=
> consistent difficulties keeping the wings level.
>
>Winch launching without water was never an issue and common
practice at
>our=
> club. But, you really don't want to drop a wing!
>
>The series of structural failures with Nimbus are all(?) related to high
>al=
>titude high speed flying. I would not worry too much unless you plan
to go
>=
>booming around Africa, Australia or western US.
>
>Maintenance scales with the glider. Lot's of parts and fittings which
will
>=
>wear and need your attention sooner or later. Especially on used
gliders
>th=
>e small issues have often started to pile up and keep you busy.
>
>From a design perspective the Nimbus is pretty robust. The tailplane is
>the=
> mediocre Schempp-Hirth design and the water ballast will start
leaking
>soo=
>ner or later (as in most gliders). The outer spoiler cables tend to break
>o=
>r lose their adjustment. Other than that the Nimbus is just a bigger
>Janus/=
>Duo Discus, which are both proven and popular designs.



You might want to consider an ASH 25 instead - one of the biggest
sellers in open class.

[Roy B.]

John:
I've no experience with the N4 but the N3 is not so difficult to rig but it is very time consuming. The 10 l'hoteliere fittings (6 of which are completely "blind") take time and patience to connect and safety becuase the fuselage ones must be done by "feel" . Not a difficult glider to fly compared to other open class gliders. No issue with winch launching assuming that your winch and driver have experience with heavy gliders. Gravel & grass runways are fine assuming you have a tow plane that can accelerate smartly. Be careful in tall grass - especially if you are using a CG hook for aerotow.

All N3 & N4s with motors are extraordinarily tail heavy when ground handling. Some lifting device is helpful. Wheel braking on the Nimbus is poor. Try to get one with a trailer that allows you to keep the tip panels on in the trailer (less assembly and taping).

Many N3 owners (including me) changed 2 things: 1) Disconnected the bungees that run to the outer panel spoilerons (which were useless anyway) as this reduced the aileron control force without adverse impact on control, and 2) ignored the directive to completely fill the outer panels with water before filling/using the inner panels. Having about 40% water in the outer panels and 60% in the inner panels helped the roll rate significantly.

I agree with the others that the ASH-25 is a nice glider also. I think it handles a bit better than the Nimbus and has the flap handle up on the gunnel where it belongs. I did not like having to stare at the floor to find what flap position I was in (which you must do with the Nimbus). Both are well supported by their factories.

Good luck.

ROY

[Craig Funston[_3_]]

On Monday, August 20, 2018 at 4:30:05 AM UTC-7, John McLaughlin wrote:
> I'm just coming back into gliding after a long time grounded and I'm
> looking to buy a glider over the winter. A two seater seems a nice idea and
>
> the Nimbus seems to be a lot of glider for the money.
>
> Are they in any way difficult or unpleasant to fly? I know there have been
>
> structural failures due to loss of control.
>
> Are they difficult or heavy to rig?
>
> Maintenance issues? Airframe life issues?
>
> How much would insurance typically cost - a two seater has to cost more
> than a single seater?
>
> Is winch launching unwise? Is it best to stick to a tarmac runway?
>
> Any advice greatly appreciated, thanks.

Hi John,

It wasn't clear whether you're looking only at the 3D and 4D or whether you're also considering single place Nimbus options. I've had my N3 for 18 years and loved my time flying it. It's hard to beat the performance / $. I just put mine up on W&W because it's being replaced by a self-launcher.
https://wingsandwheels.com/class/classified.php?id=3052

You're welcome to pm me if you want more info on rigging, flying, etc. I've got time in the N3, N4 and N4D and am happy to share what I've experienced..

Cheers,
Craig

[Ventus_a]

I'm just coming back into gliding after a long time grounded and I'm
looking to buy a glider over the winter. A two seater seems a nice idea and

the Nimbus seems to be a lot of glider for the money.

Are they in any way difficult or unpleasant to fly? I know there have been

structural failures due to loss of control.

Are they difficult or heavy to rig?

Maintenance issues? Airframe life issues?

How much would insurance typically cost - a two seater has to cost more
than a single seater?

Is winch launching unwise? Is it best to stick to a tarmac runway?

Any advice greatly appreciated, thanks.

Hi John

I currently own a Nimbus 3D and a Ventus a. I swap between the 2 without any problems and the Nimbus doesn't feel ponderous at all to me

I've some time in a Duo X and I'd describe the 3D as being like a slightly sluggish Duo to roll especially if you are flying it too slow, then it resembles an out of control barge :-) . Appropriate speed is the key. Both flight manuals quote 4.4 seconds for the 45 to 45 turn reversal at their respective MAUW with the Nimbus in +2 thermal flap at 60kts and the Duo 4kts slower. I have no hesitation in doing reversals while thermalling if I think it will centre me quicker. No problems with either aerotow or winching and I don't even mind a wing down take-off from grass on aerotow if no wing runner is available.

Unlike some I fly with the tip spoilers connected and as they only deploy (if properly adjusted) when nearing full aileron travel there is no drag penalty when flying 'clean'. They help a lot with rapid maneuvering enabling you to put the glider where you want it quickly and be back 'clean' again. The biggest hinderance in flying big wings that my fellow pilot ride alongs display is a lack of willingness to use full controls as necessary.

I've had a few passengers who have ASH 25 time fly with me and they all say the Nimbus is more responsive and quicker handling, but I suspect that relates more to lack of appropriate speed as the one time I flew an ASH with Terry Delore in NZ I thought it was fine and was looking to buy one before I settled on the Nimbus

I solo rig the Nimbus in c.40- 45 minutes and it's the endless taping that's the biggest drag and de-rig in 30. I regularly land the Nimbus shorter than the club Duo and twice have outlanded the Nimbus in c.140yd (1st and last landouts to date with another 2 or 3 in there)

Any way that's my opinion from owning a 3D and it's only an opinion. Some people like big wings and some don't.

Good luck and welcome back to soaring
:-) Colin

[Peter Purdie[_3_]]

I have had a little time in Nimbus 3 (2 aircraft, from opposite ends
of the production series), Nimbus 4, Nimbus 3DT, Nimbus 3DM and
Nimbus 4DM, and also many more hours in ASH25. A little time
may be a plus, since in my experience, you can get used to anything
and think it is better than acceptable.

In my personal opinion, ease of handling is important, it leaves time
to think about the important things like where to go next - if your
concentration is on maximising the climb while flying an unwieldy
lump, then that takes away from time better spent.

Having said which, I would avoid a very early Nimbus 3 and
especially the earliest 3Ds before they increased the tail area and
changed control relationships. Later ones are nicer. The 4 series
are a lot nicer to fly, and the single seat 4 feels like a much smaller
glider - a pleasure to fly.

The ASH25 is quite different, but you get used to it quite quickly.

I haven't done a full spin in any of the above, and wouldn't want to,
that's test pilot stuff; I have approached divergence in all of them
and they all gave me sufficient warning.

I say again, all the above is personal opinion.


At 23:50 21 August 2018, Ventus_a wrote:
>
>John McLaughlin;974863 Wrote:
>> I'm just coming back into gliding after a long time grounded and
I'm
>> looking to buy a glider over the winter. A two seater seems a
nice ide
>> an
>>
>> the Nimbus seems to be a lot of glider for the money
>>
>> Are they in any way difficult or unpleasant to fly? I know there
hav
>> bee
>>
>> structural failures due to loss of control
>>
>> Are they difficult or heavy to rig
>>
>> Maintenance issues? Airframe life issues
>>
>> How much would insurance typically cost - a two seater has to
cost more
>> than a single seater
>>
>> Is winch launching unwise? Is it best to stick to a tarmac runway
>>
>> Any advice greatly appreciated, thanks
>
>Hi Joh
>
>I currently own a Nimbus 3D and a Ventus a. I swap between the
>without any problems and the Nimbus doesn't feel ponderous at all
to m
>
>I've some time in a Duo X and I'd describe the 3D as being like
>slightly sluggish Duo to roll especially if you are flying it too slow
>then it resembles an out of control barge :-) . Appropriate speed is
th
>key. Both flight manuals quote 4.4 seconds for the 45 to 45 tur
>reversal at their respective MAUW with the Nimbus in +2 thermal
flap a
>60kts and the Duo 4kts slower. I have no hesitation in doing
reversal
>while thermalling if I think it will centre me quicker. No problems
wit
>either aerotow or winching and I don't even mind a wing down
take-of
>from grass on aerotow if no wing runner is available
>
>Unlike some I fly with the tip spoilers connected and as they onl
>deploy (if properly adjusted) when nearing full aileron travel there i
>no drag penalty when flying 'clean'. They help a lot with rapi
>maneuvering enabling you to put the glider where you want it
quickly an
>be back 'clean' again. The biggest hinderance in flying big wings
tha
>my fellow pilot ride alongs display is a lack of willingness to use ful
>controls as necessary
>
>I've had a few passengers who have ASH 25 time fly with me and
they al
>say the Nimbus is more responsive and quicker handling, but I
suspec
>that relates more to lack of appropriate speed as the one time I
flew a
>ASH with Terry Delore in NZ I thought it was fine and was looking
to bu
>one before I settled on the Nimbus
>
>I solo rig the Nimbus in c.40- 45 minutes and it's the endless tapin
>that's the biggest drag and de-rig in 30. I regularly land the
Nimbu
>shorter than the club Duo and twice have outlanded the Nimbus in
c.140y
>(1st and last landouts to date with another 2 or 3 in there
>
>Any way that's my opinion from owning a 3D and it's only an
opinion
>Some people like big wings and some don't
>
>Good luck and welcome back to soarin
>:-) Coli
>
>
>
>
>--
>Ventus_a
>

[Roy B.]

Peter:
". . . while flying an unwieldy lump"

Thank you for that phrase - I will use it often in the future!

For what it is worth, the fully developed spin in the Nimbus 3 is not uncomfortable. The rotation rate is quite slow, the pitch changes not dramatic, and the recovery is reasonably positive. I've about 600 hours in two different N3s. I have never done the spin with water and agree that is the territory for test pilots.

ROY

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Wednesday, August 22, 2018 at 1:15:06 AM UTC-7, pete purdie wrote:
> I have had a little time in Nimbus 3 (2 aircraft, from opposite ends
> of the production series), Nimbus 4, Nimbus 3DT, Nimbus 3DM and
> Nimbus 4DM, and also many more hours in ASH25. A little time
> may be a plus, since in my experience, you can get used to anything
> and think it is better than acceptable.
>
> In my personal opinion, ease of handling is important, it leaves time
> to think about the important things like where to go next - if your
> concentration is on maximising the climb while flying an unwieldy
> lump, then that takes away from time better spent.
>
> Having said which, I would avoid a very early Nimbus 3 and
> especially the earliest 3Ds before they increased the tail area and
> changed control relationships. Later ones are nicer. The 4 series
> are a lot nicer to fly, and the single seat 4 feels like a much smaller
> glider - a pleasure to fly.
>
> The ASH25 is quite different, but you get used to it quite quickly.
>
> I haven't done a full spin in any of the above, and wouldn't want to,
> that's test pilot stuff; I have approached divergence in all of them
> and they all gave me sufficient warning.
>
> I say again, all the above is personal opinion.
>
>
> At 23:50 21 August 2018, Ventus_a wrote:
> >
> >John McLaughlin;974863 Wrote:
> >> I'm just coming back into gliding after a long time grounded and
> I'm
> >> looking to buy a glider over the winter. A two seater seems a
> nice ide
> >> an
> >>
> >> the Nimbus seems to be a lot of glider for the money
> >>
> >> Are they in any way difficult or unpleasant to fly? I know there
> hav
> >> bee
> >>
> >> structural failures due to loss of control
> >>
> >> Are they difficult or heavy to rig
> >>
> >> Maintenance issues? Airframe life issues
> >>
> >> How much would insurance typically cost - a two seater has to
> cost more
> >> than a single seater
> >>
> >> Is winch launching unwise? Is it best to stick to a tarmac runway
> >>
> >> Any advice greatly appreciated, thanks
> >
> >Hi Joh
> >
> >I currently own a Nimbus 3D and a Ventus a. I swap between the
> >without any problems and the Nimbus doesn't feel ponderous at all
> to m
> >
> >I've some time in a Duo X and I'd describe the 3D as being like
> >slightly sluggish Duo to roll especially if you are flying it too slow
> >then it resembles an out of control barge :-) . Appropriate speed is
> th
> >key. Both flight manuals quote 4.4 seconds for the 45 to 45 tur
> >reversal at their respective MAUW with the Nimbus in +2 thermal
> flap a
> >60kts and the Duo 4kts slower. I have no hesitation in doing
> reversal
> >while thermalling if I think it will centre me quicker. No problems
> wit
> >either aerotow or winching and I don't even mind a wing down
> take-of
> >from grass on aerotow if no wing runner is available
> >
> >Unlike some I fly with the tip spoilers connected and as they onl
> >deploy (if properly adjusted) when nearing full aileron travel there i
> >no drag penalty when flying 'clean'. They help a lot with rapi
> >maneuvering enabling you to put the glider where you want it
> quickly an
> >be back 'clean' again. The biggest hinderance in flying big wings
> tha
> >my fellow pilot ride alongs display is a lack of willingness to use ful
> >controls as necessary
> >
> >I've had a few passengers who have ASH 25 time fly with me and
> they al
> >say the Nimbus is more responsive and quicker handling, but I
> suspec
> >that relates more to lack of appropriate speed as the one time I
> flew a
> >ASH with Terry Delore in NZ I thought it was fine and was looking
> to bu
> >one before I settled on the Nimbus
> >
> >I solo rig the Nimbus in c.40- 45 minutes and it's the endless tapin
> >that's the biggest drag and de-rig in 30. I regularly land the
> Nimbu
> >shorter than the club Duo and twice have outlanded the Nimbus in
> c.140y
> >(1st and last landouts to date with another 2 or 3 in there
> >
> >Any way that's my opinion from owning a 3D and it's only an
> opinion
> >Some people like big wings and some don't
> >
> >Good luck and welcome back to soarin
> >:-) Coli
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >--
> >Ventus_a
> >

Just a note on these big birds, it can pay to check the rigging, especially if it is new to you. I flew a Nimbus 4 that was severely mis-rigged and flew like it. A few hours in the shop, well better part of a day, a hot day, rigged correctly it flew like a beauty.

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Wednesday, August 22, 2018 at 6:52:35 AM UTC-7, Roy B. wrote:
> Peter:
> ". . . while flying an unwieldy lump"
>
> Thank you for that phrase - I will use it often in the future!
>
> For what it is worth, the fully developed spin in the Nimbus 3 is not uncomfortable. The rotation rate is quite slow, the pitch changes not dramatic, and the recovery is reasonably positive. I've about 600 hours in two different N3s. I have never done the spin with water and agree that is the territory for test pilots.
>
> ROY

I did a quarter turn in a spin in a fully ballasted Nimbus 4 (not on purpose), stood on opposite rudder, put stick against forward stop and the glider recovered in a quarter turn, without much altitude loss, everything seemed in slow motion with those big wings and all up weight, no problem. I do have significant time in a Nimbus 4D and thought it flew very different and not as pleasant to me as the single seat Nimbus 4. However, two seat flying is the best!