FAI Sporting Code Section 3 experts wanted

[Stewart Kissel]

I googled this and could not find an answer...and I
reread the Code last night...so forgive my denseness...but
I cannot figure out---

For a distance task with 3 TP's and no Start Point
or Finish Point declared...does the release from tow
have to be the start or can it be declared post flight?
If so does the 1,000 meter tow penalty still take
effect?

The finish point can be declared afterward? It does
not have to be the landing? And the 1,000 meter difference
between start and finish is calculated from the post-flight
start and finishes?

[Marc Ramsey]

Stewart Kissel wrote:
> For a distance task with 3 TP's and no Start Point
> or Finish Point declared...does the release from tow
> have to be the start or can it be declared post flight?
> If so does the 1,000 meter tow penalty still take
> effect?
>
> The finish point can be declared afterward? It does
> not have to be the landing? And the 1,000 meter difference
> between start and finish is calculated from the post-flight
> start and finishes?


You can't post-declare start or finish points for a distance task. If
you want a start point other than the point of release, or a finish
point other than the point of landing, you need to declare them before
flight, along with the turnpoints. The 1000 meter allowance is between
the start point altitude and finish point altitude, so if neither start
nor finish is declared, the difference in altitude between the point of
release and the point of landing must be 1000 meters or less to avoid
the penalty.

Marc

[Stewart Kissel]

http://www.abqsoaring.org/LONGXC_031025.pdf

Marc-

This is what got me curious...according to Karl an
'Undeclared Remote Start' can be used for a 1000k attempt.
I assume this is considered a distance task...or perhaps
it is not? Not trying to be argumentitive here...just
confused :)

[Judy Ruprecht]

At 01:48 29 August 2004, Stewart Kissel wrote:
>http://www.abqsoaring.org/LONGXC_031025.pdf

>This is what got me curious...according to Karl an
>'Undeclared Remote Start' can be used for a 1000k attempt.
> I assume this is considered a distance task...or perhaps
>it is not? Not trying to be argumentitive here...just
>confused :)

I believe Carl is mistaken. Any Start Point other than
release from tow (or Means of Propulsion stop) must
be declared for badge flights including FAI Diplomes.
Similarly, any Finish Point other than landing (or
Means of Propulsion engaged) must be declared for badge
flights including Diplomes.

FWIW, there are huge differences between 'legal' tasks
for Badges and Records. It is possible to fly a 2,000Km
Free O&R record (declared per Sporting Code 4.2.1,
excluding item e) and not earn Silver Distance!

Judy

[Marc Ramsey]

Stewart Kissel wrote:
> This is what got me curious...according to Karl an
> 'Undeclared Remote Start' can be used for a 1000k attempt.
> I assume this is considered a distance task...or perhaps
> it is not? Not trying to be argumentitive here...just
> confused :)

I think what Carl is trying to say is that you can release from the
towplane an arbitrary distance from the airport, say, over high ground
20 miles away. This is actually fairly common for long flights, as the
early lift is often elsewhere. But, if no start point is declared, the
point of release is the start point...

Marc

[Stewart Kissel]

Then perhaps he is describing a 3 TP free task?

[Judy Ruprecht]

At 04:30 29 August 2004, Stewart Kissel wrote:
>Then perhaps he is describing a 3 TP free task?

Could be. Importantly, however, none of the 'Free'
tasks described in Sporting Code 1.4.3 are available
for badge flights including the Diplomes.

Judy

[Eric Greenwell]

Marc Ramsey wrote:
> Stewart Kissel wrote:
>
>> For a distance task with 3 TP's and no Start Point
>> or Finish Point declared...does the release from tow
>> have to be the start or can it be declared post flight?
>> If so does the 1,000 meter tow penalty still take
>> effect?
>>
> > The finish point can be declared afterward? It does
> > not have to be the landing? And the 1,000 meter difference
> > between start and finish is calculated from the post-flight
> > start and finishes?
>
>
> You can't post-declare start or finish points for a distance task. If
> you want a start point other than the point of release, or a finish
> point other than the point of landing, you need to declare them before
> flight, along with the turnpoints. The 1000 meter allowance is between
> the start point altitude and finish point altitude, so if neither start
> nor finish is declared, the difference in altitude between the point of
> release and the point of landing must be 1000 meters or less to avoid
> the penalty.

It's unlikely Stewart was talking about world records, but the Code says

1.4.3 Free distance performances for records only
The WAY POINT(S) of free distance record flight performances may be
declared post-flight.

Since the start and finish are way points, it sounds like they could be
declared post-flight. This would also work for USA State records, which
allow the free distance task.

For badges, it's pretty clear (note the last sentence):

1.4.5.b. DISTANCE USING UP TO THREE TURN POINTS
A flight from a START POINT via up to three TURN POINTS to a FINISH
POINT. If the FINISH POINT is the landing place it need not be declared.
The TURN POINTS must be at least 10 kilometres apart and may be claimed
once, in any sequence, or not at all. This course must be declared.

What I think is a quirk in the rules lets a motorglider pilot
effectively choose the end of the task by starting the motor, but the
unpowered glider pilot must either declare an end point or use the
landing point.
--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

[Stewart Kissel]

So if a Start Point is declared....you can tow as high
as you want with out penalty? And a declared finish
point altitude is then subtracted from this?




At 05:00 29 August 2004, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>Marc Ramsey wrote:
>> Stewart Kissel wrote:
>>
>>> For a distance task with 3 TP's and no Start Point
>>> or Finish Point declared...does the release from tow
>>> have to be the start or can it be declared post flight?
>>> If so does the 1,000 meter tow penalty still take
>>> effect?
>>>
>> > The finish point can be declared afterward? It
>>>does
>> > not have to be the landing? And the 1,000 meter
>>>difference
>> > between start and finish is calculated from the
>>>post-flight
>> > start and finishes?
>>
>>
>> You can't post-declare start or finish points for
>>a distance task. If
>> you want a start point other than the point of release,
>>or a finish
>> point other than the point of landing, you need to
>>declare them before
>> flight, along with the turnpoints. The 1000 meter
>>allowance is between
>> the start point altitude and finish point altitude,
>>so if neither start
>> nor finish is declared, the difference in altitude
>>between the point of
>> release and the point of landing must be 1000 meters
>>or less to avoid
>> the penalty.
>
>It's unlikely Stewart was talking about world records,
>but the Code says
>
>1.4.3 Free distance performances for records only
>The WAY POINT(S) of free distance record flight performances
>may be
>declared post-flight.
>
>Since the start and finish are way points, it sounds
>like they could be
>declared post-flight. This would also work for USA
>State records, which
>allow the free distance task.
>
>For badges, it's pretty clear (note the last sentence):
>
>1.4.5.b. DISTANCE USING UP TO THREE TURN POINTS
>A flight from a START POINT via up to three TURN POINTS
>to a FINISH
>POINT. If the FINISH POINT is the landing place it
>need not be declared.
>The TURN POINTS must be at least 10 kilometres apart
>and may be claimed
>once, in any sequence, or not at all. This course must
>be declared.
>
>What I think is a quirk in the rules lets a motorglider
>pilot
>effectively choose the end of the task by starting
>the motor, but the
>unpowered glider pilot must either declare an end point
>or use the
>landing point.
>--
>Change 'netto' to 'net' to email me directly
>
>Eric Greenwell
>Washington State
>USA
>
>

[Stewart Kissel]

And if you use tow release as your start with no declared
finish...can you land anywhere you please?

At 05:30 29 August 2004, Stewart Kissel wrote:
>So if a Start Point is declared....you can tow as high
>as you want with out penalty? And a declared finish
>point altitude is then subtracted from this?
>
>
>
>
>At 05:00 29 August 2004, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>>Marc Ramsey wrote:
>>> Stewart Kissel wrote:
>>>
>>>> For a distance task with 3 TP's and no Start Point
>>>> or Finish Point declared...does the release from tow
>>>> have to be the start or can it be declared post flight?
>>>> If so does the 1,000 meter tow penalty still take
>>>> effect?
>>>>
>>> > The finish point can be declared afterward? It
>>>>does
>>> > not have to be the landing? And the 1,000 meter
>>>>difference
>>> > between start and finish is calculated from the
>>>>post-flight
>>> > start and finishes?
>>>
>>>
>>> You can't post-declare start or finish points for
>>>a distance task. If
>>> you want a start point other than the point of release,
>>>or a finish
>>> point other than the point of landing, you need to
>>>declare them before
>>> flight, along with the turnpoints. The 1000 meter
>>>allowance is between
>>> the start point altitude and finish point altitude,
>>>so if neither start
>>> nor finish is declared, the difference in altitude
>>>between the point of
>>> release and the point of landing must be 1000 meters
>>>or less to avoid
>>> the penalty.
>>
>>It's unlikely Stewart was talking about world records,
>>but the Code says
>>
>>1.4.3 Free distance performances for records only
>>The WAY POINT(S) of free distance record flight performances
>>may be
>>declared post-flight.
>>
>>Since the start and finish are way points, it sounds
>>like they could be
>>declared post-flight. This would also work for USA
>>State records, which
>>allow the free distance task.
>>
>>For badges, it's pretty clear (note the last sentence):
>>
>>1.4.5.b. DISTANCE USING UP TO THREE TURN POINTS
>>A flight from a START POINT via up to three TURN POINTS
>>to a FINISH
>>POINT. If the FINISH POINT is the landing place it
>>need not be declared.
>>The TURN POINTS must be at least 10 kilometres apart
>>and may be claimed
>>once, in any sequence, or not at all. This course must
>>be declared.
>>
>>What I think is a quirk in the rules lets a motorglider
>>pilot
>>effectively choose the end of the task by starting
>>the motor, but the
>>unpowered glider pilot must either declare an end point
>>or use the
>>landing point.
>>--
>>Change 'netto' to 'net' to email me directly
>>
>>Eric Greenwell
>>Washington State
>>USA
>>
>>
>
>
>
>

[Marc Ramsey]

Stewart Kissel wrote:

> So if a Start Point is declared....you can tow as high
> as you want with out penalty? And a declared finish
> point altitude is then subtracted from this?

Not quite. You don't declare the elevation of the start and finish
points, nor is the elevation of the ground underneath the points
relevant. The start altitude for a declared start is the (pressure)
altitude from the last fix recorded before you cross the start line or
exit the start sector. The finish altitude for a declared finish is the
(pressure) altitude from the first fix after you cross the finish line
or enter the finish sector. So, if you cross the start line at an
altitude of 3120 meters, you have to finish at 2120 meters or above to
avoid the penalty.

Marc

[Marc Ramsey]

Stewart Kissel wrote:

> And if you use tow release as your start with no declared
> finish...can you land anywhere you please?

Yes, but for a distance task you can do that in any case, even if you
declared a finish. I also believe (but I'm not 100% certain, Judy can
correct me on this), that you can declare a start point, fly the
distance task without actually claiming the declared start, and get
credit for the distance task based on an undeclared start at the point
of release.

Marc

[Stewart Kissel]

Ah, that was going to be my next question Mark. Can
you use the release point if you have a declared Start
Point. I gotta see what Judy says on this.

Would you not want to always have a declared finish...so
you can get credit for altitude you have at the finish,
rather then use the landing for the finish and lose
that altitude for your calculation versus the start
altitude?



At 06:00 29 August 2004, Marc Ramsey wrote:
>Stewart Kissel wrote:
>
>> And if you use tow release as your start with no declared
>> finish...can you land anywhere you please?
>
>Yes, but for a distance task you can do that in any
>case, even if you
>declared a finish. I also believe (but I'm not 100%
>certain, Judy can
>correct me on this), that you can declare a start point,
>fly the
>distance task without actually claiming the declared
>start, and get
>credit for the distance task based on an undeclared
>start at the point
>of release.
>
>Marc
>

[Marc Ramsey]

Stewart Kissel wrote:
> Would you not want to always have a declared finish...so
> you can get credit for altitude you have at the finish,
> rather then use the landing for the finish and lose
> that altitude for your calculation versus the start
> altitude?

That's what I always do...

Marc

[Stewart Kissel]

At 07:00 29 August 2004, Marc Ramsey wrote:
>Stewart Kissel wrote:
>> Would you not want to always have a declared finish...so
>> you can get credit for altitude you have at the finish,
>> rather then use the landing for the finish and lose
>> that altitude for your calculation versus the start
>> altitude?
>
>That's what I always do...
>Marc

Ok, this helps clear up an issue that has been bugging
me. I would be interested in anyone who could verify/comment
on whether a tow release could be used for a start...If
a Start Point had been declared. If this cannot occur,
I see pluses and minuses for using either scenario.
>
>

[Denis]

Eric Greenwell wrote:

> What I think is a quirk in the rules lets a motorglider pilot
> effectively choose the end of the task by starting the motor, but the
> unpowered glider pilot must either declare an end point or use the
> landing point.

I agree. Unfortunately it's not the only quirk in the Code Sportif,
which has accumulated rules over rules for 50 years at least without
wiping out *all* quirks that may have resulted from these changes
(despite the good job that has be conducted by the SC3 specialist).

It might be a good idea for the IGC bureau to launch a review of the
Code Sportif as a whole, as they had for loggers (Bob, if you read me
.... ;-) )

--
Denis

R. Parce que ça rompt le cours normal de la conversation !!!
Q. Pourquoi ne faut-il pas répondre au-dessus de la question ?

[Denis]

Stewart Kissel wrote:

> Ok, this helps clear up an issue that has been bugging
> me. I would be interested in anyone who could verify/comment
> on whether a tow release could be used for a start...If
> a Start Point had been declared.

No, it cannot (except reverting to a *free record* performance)

But you may use release altitude as your start altitude (for the 1000 m
difference with the altitude at finish point) and pass within the
declared start point observation zone later and higher (distance flights
only, not allowed on speed tasks)

--
Denis

R. Parce que ça rompt le cours normal de la conversation !!!
Q. Pourquoi ne faut-il pas répondre au-dessus de la question ?

[Stewart Kissel]

Gotcha...so u gotta use the Start Point if declared...but
u can pick which altitude for the calculation(Release
from tow, or Start Point elevation)


>But you may use release altitude as your start altitude
>(for the 1000 m
>difference with the altitude at finish point) and pass
>within the
>declared start point observation zone later and higher
>(distance flights
>only, not allowed on speed tasks)
>
>--
>Denis
>
>R. Parce que ça rompt le cours normal de la conversation
>!!!
>Q. Pourquoi ne faut-il pas répondre au-dessus de la
>question ?
>

[Marc Ramsey]

Denis wrote:
> Stewart Kissel wrote:
>
>> Ok, this helps clear up an issue that has been bugging
>> me. I would be interested in anyone who could verify/comment
>> on whether a tow release could be used for a start...If
>> a Start Point had been declared.
>
>
> No, it cannot (except reverting to a *free record* performance)

SC3 1.4.5.b says that distance using up to three turnpoints is "A flight
from a START POINT via up to three TURN POINTS to a FINISH POINT." Note
that is says "a START POINT", not "the START POINT". SC3 1.1.8 says a
START POINT is either "(a) The RELEASE POINT, or (b) A WAY POINT
declared as a START POINT, or (c) The midpoint of a START LINE." Note
that the pilot or data analyst can apparently choose between (b) and (c)
after the flight, as I've never seen a declaration form (paper or
electronic) that requires that you declare before the flight that you
are using a start line as opposed to a start way point (with OZ). Being
a computer programmer, I'd argue that the "or" in clause (a) has the
same logical precedence as the "or" in clause (b). Therefore, if you
have declared a start, it still seems to me that it would be valid to
use any of the START POINT options, including the RELEASE POINT. Have
you found a rule someplace else that would render this interpretation
incorrect?

Marc

[Dale Kramer]

Marc,

I can verify that this interpretation is correct.

In 1999, I used this interpretation and received my 1000km.

It was not easy to obtain with this interpretation and it took many
months of perseverance.

I believe I was the first to do this and I don't think they were happy
about my insistence on this literal interpretation of the rule.

It would be interesting to know if anyone else has successfully used
it.

I took off at Ridge Soaring with Altoona declared as a start and
finish. Three turnpoints were declared between and then landed at
Ridge Soaring. I got in wave on my way to Altoona and decided to fly
down to Cumberland for fun before I started. I was in wave when I
started at Altoona. I was able to use my tow release as my start
altitude and my finish altitude at Altoona for the 1000m calculation.

Dale Kramer
K1





Marc Ramsey > wrote in message >...
> Denis wrote:
> > Stewart Kissel wrote:
> >
> >> Ok, this helps clear up an issue that has been bugging
> >> me. I would be interested in anyone who could verify/comment
> >> on whether a tow release could be used for a start...If
> >> a Start Point had been declared.
> >
> >
> > No, it cannot (except reverting to a *free record* performance)
>
> SC3 1.4.5.b says that distance using up to three turnpoints is "A flight
> from a START POINT via up to three TURN POINTS to a FINISH POINT." Note
> that is says "a START POINT", not "the START POINT". SC3 1.1.8 says a
> START POINT is either "(a) The RELEASE POINT, or (b) A WAY POINT
> declared as a START POINT, or (c) The midpoint of a START LINE." Note
> that the pilot or data analyst can apparently choose between (b) and (c)
> after the flight, as I've never seen a declaration form (paper or
> electronic) that requires that you declare before the flight that you
> are using a start line as opposed to a start way point (with OZ). Being
> a computer programmer, I'd argue that the "or" in clause (a) has the
> same logical precedence as the "or" in clause (b). Therefore, if you
> have declared a start, it still seems to me that it would be valid to
> use any of the START POINT options, including the RELEASE POINT. Have
> you found a rule someplace else that would render this interpretation
> incorrect?
>
> Marc

[Stewart Kissel]

It's starting to get a little gray now, to summarize...

If u declare a Start Point...one can either use release
or Start Point for initial altitude for penalty caluculation.

And then you can compare this against altitude at Finish
Point observation sector?




At 12:54 30 August 2004, Dale Kramer wrote:
>Marc,
>
>I can verify that this interpretation is correct.
>
>In 1999, I used this interpretation and received my
>1000km.
>
>It was not easy to obtain with this interpretation
>and it took many
>months of perseverance.
>
>I believe I was the first to do this and I don't think
>they were happy
>about my insistence on this literal interpretation
>of the rule.
>
>It would be interesting to know if anyone else has
>successfully used
>it.
>
>I took off at Ridge Soaring with Altoona declared as
>a start and
>finish. Three turnpoints were declared between and
>then landed at
>Ridge Soaring. I got in wave on my way to Altoona
>and decided to fly
>down to Cumberland for fun before I started. I was
>in wave when I
>started at Altoona. I was able to use my tow release
>as my start
>altitude and my finish altitude at Altoona for the
>1000m calculation.
>
>Dale Kramer
>K1
>
>
>
>
>
>Marc Ramsey wrote in message news:...
>> Denis wrote:
>> > Stewart Kissel wrote:
>> >
>> >> Ok, this helps clear up an issue that has been bugging
>> >> me. I would be interested in anyone who could verify/comment
>> >> on whether a tow release could be used for a start...If
>> >> a Start Point had been declared.
>> >
>> >
>> > No, it cannot (except reverting to a *free record*
>>>performance)
>>
>> SC3 1.4.5.b says that distance using up to three turnpoints
>>is 'A flight
>> from a START POINT via up to three TURN POINTS to
>>a FINISH POINT.' Note
>> that is says 'a START POINT', not 'the START POINT'.
>> SC3 1.1.8 says a
>> START POINT is either '(a) The RELEASE POINT, or (b)
>>A WAY POINT
>> declared as a START POINT, or (c) The midpoint of
>>a START LINE.' Note
>> that the pilot or data analyst can apparently choose
>>between (b) and (c)
>> after the flight, as I've never seen a declaration
>>form (paper or
>> electronic) that requires that you declare before
>>the flight that you
>> are using a start line as opposed to a start way point
>>(with OZ). Being
>> a computer programmer, I'd argue that the 'or' in
>>clause (a) has the
>> same logical precedence as the 'or' in clause (b).
>> Therefore, if you
>> have declared a start, it still seems to me that it
>>would be valid to
>> use any of the START POINT options, including the
>>RELEASE POINT. Have
>> you found a rule someplace else that would render
>>this interpretation
>> incorrect?
>>
>> Marc
>

[Marc Ramsey]

"Stewart Kissel" > wrote...
> It's starting to get a little gray now, to summarize...

The rules are ambiguous, which is not at all surprising given their history.

> If u declare a Start Point...one can either use release
> or Start Point for initial altitude for penalty caluculation.

It's more complicated than that. According to SC3 Annex C.3.5, "the start
height and time may be selected after the flight from the *most favourable
fix* within the OZ before crossing the start line or OZ boundary." This is
in addition to SC3 1.4.7 which states that "A distance flight starting as
defined in 1.1.8b (a declared START POINT) may be claimed where the LOSS OF
HEIGHT is measured from the release height to the elevation of the finish
point."

> And then you can compare this against altitude at Finish
> Point observation sector?

Perhaps, but does "elevation of the finish point" above mean the actual
ground level elevation, or the altitude of the finish point? SC3 is in
serious need of a rewrite...

Marc

[Denis]

Dale Kramer wrote:

> I took off at Ridge Soaring with Altoona declared as a start and
> finish. Three turnpoints were declared between and then landed at
> Ridge Soaring. I got in wave on my way to Altoona and decided to fly
> down to Cumberland for fun before I started. I was in wave when I
> started at Altoona. I was able to use my tow release as my start
> altitude and my finish altitude at Altoona for the 1000m calculation.

If I understand, you did use your pre-declared start point (Altoona) as
start position - meaning that you actually passed through its
observation zone, and it was used for distance calculation ?

--
Denis

R. Parce que ça rompt le cours normal de la conversation !!!
Q. Pourquoi ne faut-il pas répondre au-dessus de la question ?

[Denis]

Marc Ramsey wrote:

> SC3 1.4.5.b says that distance using up to three turnpoints is "A flight
> from a START POINT via up to three TURN POINTS to a FINISH POINT." Note
> that is says "a START POINT", not "the START POINT". SC3 1.1.8 says a
> START POINT is either "(a) The RELEASE POINT, or (b) A WAY POINT
> declared as a START POINT, or (c) The midpoint of a START LINE." Note
> that the pilot or data analyst can apparently choose between (b) and (c)
> after the flight, as I've never seen a declaration form (paper or
> electronic) that requires that you declare before the flight that you
> are using a start line as opposed to a start way point (with OZ). Being
> a computer programmer, I'd argue that the "or" in clause (a) has the
> same logical precedence as the "or" in clause (b). Therefore, if you
> have declared a start, it still seems to me that it would be valid to
> use any of the START POINT options, including the RELEASE POINT. Have
> you found a rule someplace else that would render this interpretation
> incorrect?

this one ?

> SC3 1.4.1.d. WAY POINTS must be declared and used in the sequence declared except where
> specifically not required in the rules.

SC3c, which says how to interpret SC3, says in 1.1 :

> If you think a passage of text is capable
> of being interpreted in more than one way, the most straightforward
interpretation is the
> correct one, not the obscure one that a lawyer may find.

but in 1.2 it says (which may be the contrary) :

> OOs and national claims
> officers are encouraged to take the position that, while ensuring the
rules are met, their job is
> to make awards, not turn them down for minor bureaucratic reasons or
oversights that do not
> affect the proof of a soaring performance.

SC3c 3.1 says:

> The Code gives four methods of starting and finishing to choose from.
Any start method can
> be used with any finish method:
> The start (SC3-1.1.7) The finish (SC3-1.1.11)
> 1 release landing
> 2 leaving a start point OZ entering a finish point OZ
> 3 crossing a start line crossing a finish line
> 4 shutting down a MoP starting a MoP
> The first and fourth alternatives can be considered equivalent, and
do not normally need to be pre-declared. The exceptions are a goal
flight when the finish point is declared, or a closed course flight in
which the nomination of “point of release” as the start point and finish
point
> will meet the declaration requirement. The second and third methods
of starting always require pre-declaration of the start point (except
for free distance flights).

Although it is not straightforward, I would say that you may declare
"release point" as the start point (as of SC3 1.1.8 option a), but if
you already declared a precise Start point, you may not change it
inflight to the release point.

In the case of a closed course, the release point may not be used since
the start point and the finish point are to be identical and finish
point may not be defined as the release point !

Start line option is another quirk in the SC3. I would say that it only
applies when declared, but I see no mean to declare this in a logger !
Except in an official competition, the start line is undefined - SC3
says "*approximately* perpendicular to the first leg" which in the case
of observation from the ground may have sense, but not when GPS is used.
Same for finish line...

Perhaps we'd need an annex D to the sporting code, saying how to
interpret the annex C ;-) ?


--
Denis

R. Parce que ça rompt le cours normal de la conversation !!!
Q. Pourquoi ne faut-il pas répondre au-dessus de la question ?

[Denis]

Marc Ramsey wrote:

> SC3 is in
> serious need of a rewrite...

It has been rewrited 5 years ago. But this has been done without
changing any piece of rule (which was not in the power of the rewriter),
thus it remains as complicated and often unlogical that is was before
rewriting.

The need is to reintroduce a bit of logic and common sense in the rules,
then the rewriting should be easier (as would be the interpretation !)

--
Denis

R. Parce que ça rompt le cours normal de la conversation !!!
Q. Pourquoi ne faut-il pas répondre au-dessus de la question ?

[Marc Ramsey]

Denis wrote:
> In the case of a closed course, the release point may not be used since
> the start point and the finish point are to be identical and finish
> point may not be defined as the release point !

How about SC3 Annex C 3.1 which says 'or a closed course flight in which
the nomination of "point of release" as the start point and finish point
will meet the declaration requirement.'?

Marc

[Denis]

Marc Ramsey wrote:

> Denis wrote:
>
>> In the case of a closed course, the release point may not be used
>> since the start point and the finish point are to be identical and
>> finish point may not be defined as the release point !
>
>
> How about SC3 Annex C 3.1 which says 'or a closed course flight in which
> the nomination of "point of release" as the start point and finish point
> will meet the declaration requirement.'?

You're right if there is no declared start point (other than point of
release). If you have declared a start point, you must nominate the same
point as finish point (so that it be a closed course).

--
Denis

R. Parce que ça rompt le cours normal de la conversation !!!
Q. Pourquoi ne faut-il pas répondre au-dessus de la question ?

[Dale Kramer]

> If I understand, you did use your pre-declared start point (Altoona) as
> start position - meaning that you actually passed through its
> observation zone, and it was used for distance calculation ?

Yes I did Denis.

[Denis]

Dale Kramer wrote:

>>If I understand, you did use your pre-declared start point (Altoona) as
>>start position - meaning that you actually passed through its
>>observation zone, and it was used for distance calculation ?
>
>
> Yes I did Denis.

OK Thus no problem in your case. But the case that Mark presented is
more subject to interpretation...

--
Denis

R. Parce que ça rompt le cours normal de la conversation !!!
Q. Pourquoi ne faut-il pas répondre au-dessus de la question ?