A few newbie questions about the sport

[[email protected]]

A short while ago my daughter was considering joining a local Civil Air Patrol chapter, while attending the meetings with her I began to be interested in Gliding. I'm in NJ. If someone could help me with a few basic questions, I'd really appreciate it:

1. What is the average ground speed of a Glider flight?

2. Can Gliders take off and land at any airport/airfield...or are there known designated airports?

3. Regarding the thermal updrafts: Does this mean that Gliding is a seasonal sport and therefore flying in the Winter is more difficult (or impossible)?

4. Any tips on finding a school to begin lessons?


Thanks again for your time.
Ed

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

Welcome, you have something to share with your daughter!

Typical flight speed in training is about 35MPH to 70MPH, sorta depends on the ship.

There are airports that support training and flying sailplanes, but almost any is fair game if weather means you have to land somewhere else.

To find places to fly, go to SSA.org, they have a "where to fly" on a map with contact info. Sorta depends on.....
-where in NJ you are
-weekend only OK, or do you also want during the week (some sites are weekend only, usually clubs)
-find some places, go there, interact, ask questions, see if the group is something you can feel good about

There are places in eastern PA, NJ and southern NY to fly. I fly with Valley Soaring in NY.

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

Oh......missed a question regarding lift. Yes, Soaring is sorta seasonal, but training can be year round. Our group shuts down early January, opens again in April or May.
Some places have easy access to ridge lift, so something different.

[[email protected]]

On Monday, September 17, 2018 at 10:58:36 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> A short while ago my daughter was considering joining a local Civil Air Patrol chapter, while attending the meetings with her I began to be interested in Gliding. I'm in NJ. If someone could help me with a few basic questions, I'd really appreciate it:
>
> 1. What is the average ground speed of a Glider flight?
>
> 2. Can Gliders take off and land at any airport/airfield...or are there known designated airports?
>
> 3. Regarding the thermal updrafts: Does this mean that Gliding is a seasonal sport and therefore flying in the Winter is more difficult (or impossible)?
>
> 4. Any tips on finding a school to begin lessons?
>
>
> Thanks again for your time.
> Ed

Go to SSA.org and look for the Where to Fly symbol. This will lead you to a directory of soaring sites in your area.
Welcome aboard.
UH

[Ben Hirashima]

Welcome to soaring, Ed! The seasonality of the sport depends a bit on your location. There are three main types of lift that gliders use: thermals, ridge, and wave. Thermals tend to be good during spring, summer, and sometimes fall, depending on the area. Ridge and wave lift depend on wind, and can be found at any time of year, depending on the area and topography. Winter is generally regarded as the off season for soaring, but at least in the Western US, we sometimes get great wave days.

[[email protected]]

As a newbie - one thing to know when you ask a glider pilot the question "Is it a good soaring day" depends (you will hear "depends" allot in Soaring).

Some of the best days to lean to fly a glider are not good Soaring Days.

There can be excellent flying days no matter what time of year and what location - weather is the key component and unpredictable past a few days out.

my $.02

WH

[[email protected]]

On Monday, September 17, 2018 at 10:58:36 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> A short while ago my daughter was considering joining a local Civil Air Patrol chapter, while attending the meetings with her I began to be interested in Gliding. I'm in NJ. If someone could help me with a few basic questions, I'd really appreciate it:
>
> 1. What is the average ground speed of a Glider flight?
>
> 2. Can Gliders take off and land at any airport/airfield...or are there known designated airports?
>
> 3. Regarding the thermal updrafts: Does this mean that Gliding is a seasonal sport and therefore flying in the Winter is more difficult (or impossible)?
>
> 4. Any tips on finding a school to begin lessons?
>
>
> Thanks again for your time.
> Ed

Hey Ed,

1. Answered by Charlie.

2. Can Gliders take off and land at any airport/airfield...or are there known designated airports?

So long as the airport is sufficient in size to tow out of, yes. But gliders are limited to flying out of places with towplanes that can tow us up. There are several places in and around New Jersey that tow.

3. Regarding the thermal updrafts: Does this mean that Gliding is a seasonal sport and therefore flying in the Winter is more difficult (or impossible)?

While there's a bit more to it, you can think of thermals being driven by the difference in temperature, not so much the actual temperature of the air.. You can have a very cold day, but so long as the ground is a bit warmer, you will have thermals.

To make it a little more complicated, our good soaring days are often when it gets *colder*. When the cold fronts come through and we have those cool NW days, the air becomes "unstable". This is to say that it is easier for thermals to rise, because the air gets cooler faster than it normally would. As a result, when the thermal rises, its relative temperature is higher, making the thermals stronger. Cold fronts can be quite strong in the autumn, fall and spring. One of my strongest thermals was in February... 13 knots for 3000ft or so. Not that far off from the speed of the Empire State Building elevators!

Simply stated, look up at the sky on those cooler, drier days and you will often see nice puffy cumulus clouds marking our thermals. Those are the best soaring days.

4. Any tips on finding a school to begin lessons?

If you're in Southern Jersey, the closest place to you would probably be Philadelphia Glider Council at Hilltown PA. If you're closer to middle Jersey, nearer to Rt.80, then Jersey Ridge Soaring at Blairstown, NJ. If in Northern Jersey, then Valley Soaring is a good option too.

Hope this helps,
Daniel

[CindyB[_2_]]

On Monday, September 17, 2018 at 7:58:36 AM UTC-7, wrote:

>
> 1. What is the average ground speed of a Glider flight?

While circling in a thermal - essentially zero toward your landing place. In cruise flight on a thermal flying day in NJ - approximately 50 mph.

Take a look at this link for a NJ thermal flight by a gal
https://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-3.0/gliding/flightinfo.html?dsId=6828340

and this link for a NJ ridge flying flight by a top young NJ pilot
https://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-3.0/gliding/flightinfo.html?dsId=6168501


> 2. Can Gliders take off and land at any airport/airfield...or are there known designated airports?

Legally yes. Practically - we band together at a less busy country airfield to not interfere with "air commerce". Self launching motorgliders can integrate at any airfield. You can find local clubs and schools via www.ssa.org. Also check out the Women Soaring Pilots Association for mentoring, scholarships, and local contacts. http://www.womensoaring.org/

>
> 3. Regarding the thermal updrafts: Does this mean that Gliding is a seasonal sport and therefore flying in the Winter is more difficult (or impossible)?

Possible year around. Learn anytime. (Just don't get frostbite. You are in NJ and I am told they have winter.)


> 4. Any tips on finding a school to begin lessons?

If you don't enjoy the first club or teacher, find another one.
Or come see me for a week of training camp . . . .

> Thanks again for your time.
> Ed

And contact me anytime directly for any questions. Happy to help.
I always want to get another young lady soaring.

Cindy B
north of Los Angeles by an hour.
www.caracole-soaring.com

[son_of_flubber]

https://sugarbushsoaring.com/youth-programs/youth-soaring-camps

[[email protected]]

> 2. Can Gliders take off and land at any airport/airfield...or are there known designated airports?

Legally, we can take off or land at "any" airport, but naturally, there are practical exceptions. You wouldn't want to be in the traffic pattern at say, Dulles, O'Hare, Atlanta-Hartsfield, etc.

Most glider operations are located at untowered airports, surrounded by "uncontrolled" airspace. Of course, there are lots of exceptions, but suffice it to say that you probably will be flying with an operation that has this issue resolved and you don't have to worry too much about excessive commercial traffic.

[Scott Manley[_3_]]

> 4. Any tips on finding a school to begin lessons?
>
A very effective and efficient way to learn to fly is through the use of computer-based flight simulation software. Training can be done at home, on your schedule, at considerably less cost, in much less time, and there is no off-season. Unfortunately, very few glider clubs or commercial glider operations offer this mode of training.

That said, I do provide simulation-based training, at-a-distance (i.e., via the Internet), and I may be willing to take you and/or your daughter on as students. My services are free to those I elect to work with, and for reference purposes I can connect you to one or more of the 70 persons I have trained this way over the past 10 years.

Simulation-based flight training is not a complete course of instruction. After learning most (80-90%) of what you need to know in simulation, you would need to complete your training by applying your skills in an actual aircraft at a soaring club or commercial operation. However, showing up pre-trained will allow you to advance much more quickly through your aircraft-based training.

If interested, feel free to contact me via my website "gliderCFI.com" or call me at area code six zero eight, two two two, six eight four three.

Welcome to the sport.

Respectfully submitted for your consideration,

Scott Manley CFIG

[Paul T[_4_]]

At 16:05 18 September 2018, Scott Manley wrote:
>=20
>> 4. Any tips on finding a school to begin lessons?
>>=20
>A very effective and efficient way to learn to fly is through the use of
>co=
>mputer-based flight simulation software. Training can be done at
home, on
>=
>your schedule, at considerably less cost, in much less time, and there
is
>n=
>o off-season. Unfortunately, very few glider clubs or commercial glider
>op=
>erations offer this mode of training.
>
>That said, I do provide simulation-based training, at-a-distance (i.e.,
>via=
> the Internet), and I may be willing to take you and/or your daughter
on
>as=
> students. My services are free to those I elect to work with, and for
>ref=
>erence purposes I can connect you to one or more of the 70 persons I
have
>t=
>rained this way over the past 10 years.
>
>Simulation-based flight training is not a complete course of instruction.

>=
>After learning most (80-90%) of what you need to know in simulation,
you
>wo=
>uld need to complete your training by applying your skills in an actual
>air=
>craft at a soaring club or commercial operation. However, showing up
>pre-t=
>rained will allow you to advance much more quickly through your
>aircraft-ba=
>sed training. =20
>
>If interested, feel free to contact me via my website "gliderCFI.com" or
>ca=
>ll me at area code six zero eight, two two two, six eight four three.
>
>Welcome to the sport.
>
>Respectfully submitted for your consideration,
>
>Scott Manley CFIG


Do you have the evidence to prove this Scott, and if so how much of a
'time-saver' on real life flying does the computer based training make to

the average student?

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Tuesday, September 18, 2018 at 11:30:08 AM UTC-7, Paul T wrote:
> At 16:05 18 September 2018, Scott Manley wrote:
> >=20
> >> 4. Any tips on finding a school to begin lessons?
> >>=20
> >A very effective and efficient way to learn to fly is through the use of
> >co=
> >mputer-based flight simulation software. Training can be done at
> home, on
> >=
> >your schedule, at considerably less cost, in much less time, and there
> is
> >n=
> >o off-season. Unfortunately, very few glider clubs or commercial glider
> >op=
> >erations offer this mode of training.
> >
> >That said, I do provide simulation-based training, at-a-distance (i.e.,
> >via=
> > the Internet), and I may be willing to take you and/or your daughter
> on
> >as=
> > students. My services are free to those I elect to work with, and for
> >ref=
> >erence purposes I can connect you to one or more of the 70 persons I
> have
> >t=
> >rained this way over the past 10 years.
> >
> >Simulation-based flight training is not a complete course of instruction..
>
> >=
> >After learning most (80-90%) of what you need to know in simulation,
> you
> >wo=
> >uld need to complete your training by applying your skills in an actual
> >air=
> >craft at a soaring club or commercial operation. However, showing up
> >pre-t=
> >rained will allow you to advance much more quickly through your
> >aircraft-ba=
> >sed training. =20
> >
> >If interested, feel free to contact me via my website "gliderCFI.com" or
> >ca=
> >ll me at area code six zero eight, two two two, six eight four three.
> >
> >Welcome to the sport.
> >
> >Respectfully submitted for your consideration,
> >
> >Scott Manley CFIG
>
>
> Do you have the evidence to prove this Scott, and if so how much of a
> 'time-saver' on real life flying does the computer based training make to
>
> the average student?

While I have no hard facts, statistics nor research on this subject, in keeping with the long standing traditions of RAS, it is my experience that young people who are gamers and first time flying a glider do much better than those that do not have computer game experience. I have taken 14 year olds flying that could fly better than licensed power pilots. I also note that many of the young competitive pilots on the world competition scene say they fly Condor. I had a decade and a half break from gliding, bought Condor (is it not expensive) and flew it a bunch before I got in a glider to get current. On my first flight back to soaring I flew like I was current, as I had a bunch of Condor flights, and a ton of practiced emergencies, that I could quickly repeat. Other than my personal confidence which only comes from actual time in the saddle, I found Condor to be a great training/learning aid.

I recently had a friend over that has been out of gliding for years. We flew Condor and he went out and bought a copy after he tried using aileron to lift a wing as the (simulated) glider dropped a wing entering a spin. I would wholly recommend a student use both simulator and actual training. Caveats: I am not a CFIG, just a commercial pilot, I have no financial interest in Condor or any other business venture that would be profitable.

[Scott Manley[_3_]]

>
>
> Do you have the evidence to prove this Scott, and if so how much of a
> 'time-saver' on real life flying does the computer based training make to
>
> the average student?

Paul,

Call me at the phone number listed in the my reply to Newbie. I would be happy to share my thoughts on your question based on my experience over 10 years.

The airlines, military, and professional flight training organization (e.g., Flight Safety) have long established the economic and time-saving benefits of simulation-based flight training. I have no need to reprove the already proven.

My primary evidence of the effectiveness and efficiency of computer-based flight simulation is the testimony of the 70 folks I have worked with.

[Paul T[_4_]]

At 22:44 18 September 2018, Scott Manley wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Do you have the evidence to prove this Scott, and if so how much of
a
>> 'time-saver' on real life flying does the computer based training
make
>to
>>
>> the average student?
>
>Paul,
>
>Call me at the phone number listed in the my reply to Newbie. I would
be
>happy to share my thoughts on your question based on my experience
over 10
>years.
>
>The airlines, military, and professional flight training organization
>(e.g., Flight Safety) have long established the economic and time-
saving
>benefits of simulation-based flight training. I have no need to reprove
>the already proven.
>
>My primary evidence of the effectiveness and efficiency of computer-
based
>flight simulation is the testimony of the 70 folks I have worked with.
>
>

Sorry can't afford transatlantic telephone calls - I asked a fairly simple

question, why can't you answer this on a public forum?

[[email protected]]

On Monday, September 17, 2018 at 10:58:36 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> A short while ago my daughter was considering joining a local Civil Air Patrol chapter, while attending the meetings with her I began to be interested in Gliding. I'm in NJ. If someone could help me with a few basic questions, I'd really appreciate it:
>
> 1. What is the average ground speed of a Glider flight?
>
> 2. Can Gliders take off and land at any airport/airfield...or are there known designated airports?
>
> 3. Regarding the thermal updrafts: Does this mean that Gliding is a seasonal sport and therefore flying in the Winter is more difficult (or impossible)?
>
> 4. Any tips on finding a school to begin lessons?
>
>
> Thanks again for your time.
> Ed

Where are you located in NJ?
My club flies in the lower Hudson valley of NY and has an active youth program.
Look up Valley Soaring Club.
UH

[SoaringXCellence]

Paul,

I'll jump in here with my most recent experience with a new soaring pilot and simulation training:

Student: Never having flown glider but was rated in airplanes and was current.

Two hours "flying" Condor aerotows one evening.

The next day did four flights, The first one I gave him the controls at 1000 ft. and he flew the rest of the tow; i did the landing. The second flight he flew the whole flight from lift off to touch down. Ditto for the remaining two flights.

I have 400 hours teaching glider pilots and 5800 hours teaching airplane pilots.

I've never had a quicker building of skills in a new pilot. He's the first I use the Condor method. I will be using it from now on.

Mike Bamberg

PS. in the flight school where I accrued all those hours we would always use simulators whenever possible. The only disadvantage was the lack of "feel" which was easily gained once the student began flying in the plane.

[[email protected]]

> Sorry can't afford transatlantic telephone calls - I asked a fairly simple
>
> question, why can't you answer this on a public forum?

Skype it!

[OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net]

Ed,

Glad to hear that the gliding/soaring bug may have bit you.

Regarding #2 - Can Gliders take off and land at any airport/airfield...or are there known designated airports?

Lets break down this question into the ups and downs of it.

Landing - Legally, as Cindy said, you can land any aircraft (which includes gliders) at any airport. Practically speaking small grass and local hard surface low-traffic airports are "easy", mid-size airports you should be on the radio first (if you are able), and finally larger airports with commercial traffic you might/will cause quite a hubbub. But, when in a jam, you gotta' do what you gotta' do. It can be better to just land in a farmer's plowed field adjacent to an active airport than to land on the airport itself (while steering clear of pastures and rocky areas). "Landing out" is something you will need to learn about and prepare for in any case. ;-)

Takeoffs - This is trickier. Glider (non-self launch) operations are considered SLOW by the powered airplane world due to the need to position the glider and tow plane on the runway, hooking up the tow rope, taking up slack, and then launching. Many airport managers (paid, unpaid and/or self-appointed) are very friendly to glider operations while a (thankfully) few are downright hostile. All the glider operations shown on the SSA.org web site have already crossed this negotiation bridge and are actively working to stay on the good side of the local "authorities". Some lucky clubs even own their own airports which avoids nearly all of these problems in the first place!

Bottom line: Begin with an established club or commercial operation as the best way to learn the ropes and stay safe. http://www.ssa.org/WhereToFly

Best of luck,
John OHM Ω

[Bob Kuykendall]

I'll take "Sealioning" for a thousand, Alex!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning

--Bob K.

[Bob Kuykendall]

On Tuesday, September 18, 2018 at 4:00:07 PM UTC-7, Paul T wrote:

> Sorry can't afford transatlantic telephone calls - I asked a fairly simple
> question, why can't you answer this on a public forum?


I'll take "sealioning" for a thousand, Alex!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

With or without the beard?
Sorta depends if you watch enough.......LOL......

[kirk.stant]

On Tuesday, September 18, 2018 at 6:00:07 PM UTC-5, Paul T wrote:

> Sorry can't afford transatlantic telephone calls - I asked a fairly simple
>
> question, why can't you answer this on a public forum?

Assuming you are British - do a search of BGA's excellent magazine; a few years ago there was an article about a student who basically soloed in 5 flights by using Condor to prepare.

I believe the French CNVV has developed a full-up Condor (w/cockpit and big screens) glider simulator for use by French glider clubs.

Our own gliding club (St Louis Soaring Association) in the US is in the process of building up a Condor sim with realistic flight controls and multiple big screens.

Any simulator is just a training tool (Condor is technically an Aircrew Training Device in the lingo of the flight simulation industry) and it's effectiveness is driven by how it is used. Since the cockpit of a glider is not the best classroom, used properly Condor can be a great help to the learning process. Learn it in the sim, practice it in the glider.

Kirk
(been using sims for training for almost 50 years now...yikes!)

[Nick Kennedy[_3_]]

Warning Thread drift light on
John OHM said it might be better to put it in a field than land at a active airport. This is crazy. There is nothing to be afraid of landing at a "Active" airport. Get on the radio early,
just check out the layout from the air, get on the radio somemore, land and stop next to taxiway, get out and push your ship behind the hold line. Helluva lot safer than landing in ANY field IMHO Airports are a know factor, fields, any fields are unknown factors. Hopefully everyone knows how to push there plane around on the ground by hand with no wing wheels or tail dollys. You pick the tail boom up drag it around to get the tail pointed where you want to go, move to the leading edge of the wing, next to the fuselage, level the wings and push, you can even steer most planes by raising or lowering the wing a little bit.
Thread drift light off sorry.

[George Haeh]

Airports have their own challenges for gliders. A lot depends on runway width and lights. I passed on one airstrip in the book because the advertised width was tight and ended up in a nice hay field.

I do know two pilots who discovered they were landing on an RC field late in the proceedings.

Yes, do get on the radio and keep an eye out for NORDOs.

[Paul T[_4_]]

At 18:16 19 September 2018, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
>On Tuesday, September 18, 2018 at 4:00:07 PM UTC-7, Paul T wrote:
>
>> Sorry can't afford transatlantic telephone calls - I asked a fairly
>simple
>> question, why can't you answer this on a public forum?
>
>
>I'll take "sealioning" for a thousand, Alex!
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning
>

Don't be a **** Bob and assume the worst - was asking a fairly simple
question to someone as to the effectiveness of training with simulation -
which his purportedly his business. Was interested in knowing what the
savings in RL training might be? - don't see why that can't be answered on

a public forum.

[Paul T[_4_]]

At 13:31 20 September 2018, kirk.stant wrote:
>On Tuesday, September 18, 2018 at 6:00:07 PM UTC-5, Paul T wrote:
>
>> Sorry can't afford transatlantic telephone calls - I asked a fairly
>simpl=
>e
>>=20
>> question, why can't you answer this on a public forum?
>
>Assuming you are British - do a search of BGA's excellent magazine; a
few
>y=
>ears ago there was an article about a student who basically soloed in 5
>fli=
>ghts by using Condor to prepare.=20
>
>I believe the French CNVV has developed a full-up Condor (w/cockpit
and
>big=
> screens) glider simulator for use by French glider clubs.
>
>Our own gliding club (St Louis Soaring Association) in the US is in the
>pro=
>cess of building up a Condor sim with realistic flight controls and
>multipl=
>e big screens.
>
>Any simulator is just a training tool (Condor is technically an Aircrew
>Tra=
>ining Device in the lingo of the flight simulation industry) and it's
>effec=
>tiveness is driven by how it is used. Since the cockpit of a glider is
not
>=
>the best classroom, used properly Condor can be a great help to the
>learnin=
>g process. Learn it in the sim, practice it in the glider.
>
>Kirk
>(been using sims for training for almost 50 years now...yikes!)


You ask a simple question on here and get slaughtered - I asked a
simple question of someone who uses this method as a business , what
is typically the time saved using this method-its it really such a
difficult
question to answer? Why can't htat be answered on a public forum -
some kind of big secret or something?

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Thursday, September 20, 2018 at 11:00:08 AM UTC-7, Paul T wrote:
> At 13:31 20 September 2018, kirk.stant wrote:
> >On Tuesday, September 18, 2018 at 6:00:07 PM UTC-5, Paul T wrote:
> >
> >> Sorry can't afford transatlantic telephone calls - I asked a fairly
> >simpl=
> >e
> >>=20
> >> question, why can't you answer this on a public forum?
> >
> >Assuming you are British - do a search of BGA's excellent magazine; a
> few
> >y=
> >ears ago there was an article about a student who basically soloed in 5
> >fli=
> >ghts by using Condor to prepare.=20
> >
> >I believe the French CNVV has developed a full-up Condor (w/cockpit
> and
> >big=
> > screens) glider simulator for use by French glider clubs.
> >
> >Our own gliding club (St Louis Soaring Association) in the US is in the
> >pro=
> >cess of building up a Condor sim with realistic flight controls and
> >multipl=
> >e big screens.
> >
> >Any simulator is just a training tool (Condor is technically an Aircrew
> >Tra=
> >ining Device in the lingo of the flight simulation industry) and it's
> >effec=
> >tiveness is driven by how it is used. Since the cockpit of a glider is
> not
> >=
> >the best classroom, used properly Condor can be a great help to the
> >learnin=
> >g process. Learn it in the sim, practice it in the glider.
> >
> >Kirk
> >(been using sims for training for almost 50 years now...yikes!)
>
>
> You ask a simple question on here and get slaughtered - I asked a
> simple question of someone who uses this method as a business , what
> is typically the time saved using this method-its it really such a
> difficult
> question to answer? Why can't htat be answered on a public forum -
> some kind of big secret or something?

If you want to ask a simple question, might I suggest you do it without an accusatory tone. Writers including myself have given you plenty antidotal "evidence" of simulation training as a good learning tool. I was required by my insurance to attend Flight Safety for yearly simulation training in a complex aircraft I have flown. Could be Scott runs a small operation, catering to glider pilots, and has not funded a multi-part double blind study large enough for a statically valid result, to see if 1) Condor simulation reduces time to ticket for; a) ab initio student; b) for licensed power pilots transitioning; c) rusty returning pilots; d) currency…..

Simulation training has been around and proven since the Link trainer in the big one, that is WWII. Don't blame Scott or the newsgroup for calling you out on your behavior! For the most part we have a great group that are helpful to one another and many members are the most respected members of our sport internationally. If you truly wanted to know you would have taken Scott up on his offer to communication directly.

[Paul T[_4_]]

At 19:09 20 September 2018, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
>On Thursday, September 20, 2018 at 11:00:08 AM UTC-7, Paul T
wrote:
>> At 13:31 20 September 2018, kirk.stant wrote:
>> >On Tuesday, September 18, 2018 at 6:00:07 PM UTC-5, Paul T
wrote:
>> >
>> >> Sorry can't afford transatlantic telephone calls - I asked a fairly
>> >simpl=3D
>> >e
>> >>=3D20
>> >> question, why can't you answer this on a public forum?
>> >
>> >Assuming you are British - do a search of BGA's excellent
magazine; a=20
>> few
>> >y=3D
>> >ears ago there was an article about a student who basically soloed
in 5
>> >fli=3D
>> >ghts by using Condor to prepare.=3D20
>> >
>> >I believe the French CNVV has developed a full-up Condor
(w/cockpit=20
>> and
>> >big=3D
>> > screens) glider simulator for use by French glider clubs.
>> >
>> >Our own gliding club (St Louis Soaring Association) in the US is in
the
>> >pro=3D
>> >cess of building up a Condor sim with realistic flight controls and
>> >multipl=3D
>> >e big screens.
>> >
>> >Any simulator is just a training tool (Condor is technically an
Aircrew
>> >Tra=3D
>> >ining Device in the lingo of the flight simulation industry) and it's
>> >effec=3D
>> >tiveness is driven by how it is used. Since the cockpit of a glider is
>> not
>> >=3D
>> >the best classroom, used properly Condor can be a great help to
the
>> >learnin=3D
>> >g process. Learn it in the sim, practice it in the glider.
>> >
>> >Kirk
>> >(been using sims for training for almost 50 years now...yikes!)
>>=20
>>=20
>> You ask a simple question on here and get slaughtered - I asked
a=20
>> simple question of someone who uses this method as a business ,
what=20
>> is typically the time saved using this method-its it really such a
>> difficult=20
>> question to answer? Why can't htat be answered on a public forum -
=20
>> some kind of big secret or something?
>
>If you want to ask a simple question, might I suggest you do it without
an
>=
>accusatory tone. Writers including myself have given you plenty
antidotal
>"=
>evidence" of simulation training as a good learning tool. I was
required
>b=
>y my insurance to attend Flight Safety for yearly simulation training in
a
>=
>complex aircraft I have flown. Could be Scott runs a small operation,
>cater=
>ing to glider pilots, and has not funded a multi-part double blind study
>la=
>rge enough for a statically valid result, to see if 1) Condor simulation
>re=
>duces time to ticket for; a) ab initio student; b) for licensed power
>pilot=
>s transitioning; c) rusty returning pilots; d) currency=E2=80=A6.. =20
>
>Simulation training has been around and proven since the Link trainer
in
>th=
>e big one, that is WWII. Don't blame Scott or the newsgroup for
calling
>yo=
>u out on your behavior! For the most part we have a great group that
are
>he=
>lpful to one another and many members are the most respected
members of
>our=
> sport internationally. If you truly wanted to know you would have
taken
>S=
>cott up on his offer to communication directly.


Yeah at great expense to myself, sorry but I cannot afford to make
transantlantic telephone calls - there was no accusatory tone - asked a
simple question that's all - dont see why that can't be answered. Think
you are getting a bit oversensitiveness and reading things into things
that aren't there . The guy stated this was his business and made some
claims in a public forum - I merely asked if he had any evidence for that
and what the average time saving was - surely a simple answer like' in
my experience for the 50 students that have used this method - the
average student can save 2 -4 hours on R/L training' would have
answered the question - cannot see why that is so hard to do?

If you wish to know the reason for this - is that I with some friends are
thinking of establishing a gliding club in Bulgaria - Bulgaria is one of
the
poorest countries in the EU - we would like to establish a club that the a

person on an average income can afford to fly - average incomes are low
in Bulgaria @ 400euro/month - so any money savings saved in training
would be beneficial and it may pay to use a simulator in the training
syllabus.

[POPS]

;976154']At 22:44 18 September 2018, Scott Manley wrote:



Do you have the evidence to prove this Scott, and if so how much of
a
'time-saver' on real life flying does the computer based training
make
to

the average student?

Paul,

Call me at the phone number listed in the my reply to Newbie. I would
be
happy to share my thoughts on your question based on my experience
over 10
years.

The airlines, military, and professional flight training organization
(e.g., Flight Safety) have long established the economic and time-
saving
benefits of simulation-based flight training. I have no need to reprove
the already proven.

My primary evidence of the effectiveness and efficiency of computer-
based
flight simulation is the testimony of the 70 folks I have worked with.



Sorry can't afford transatlantic telephone calls - I asked a fairly simple

question, why can't you answer this on a public forum?



Geeeezzzzzz, get WhatsApp, Skype, whatever... so you can talk for freeeeeeeee, or until you pass out.

[Dan Daly[_2_]]

On Thursday, September 20, 2018 at 3:45:08 PM UTC-4, Paul T wrote:
> At 19:09 20 September 2018, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> >On Thursday, September 20, 2018 at 11:00:08 AM UTC-7, Paul T
> wrote:
> >> At 13:31 20 September 2018, kirk.stant wrote:
> >> >On Tuesday, September 18, 2018 at 6:00:07 PM UTC-5, Paul T
> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Sorry can't afford transatlantic telephone calls - I asked a fairly
> >> >simpl=3D
> >> >e
> >> >>=3D20
> >> >> question, why can't you answer this on a public forum?
> >> >
> >> >Assuming you are British - do a search of BGA's excellent
> magazine; a=20
> >> few
> >> >y=3D
> >> >ears ago there was an article about a student who basically soloed
> in 5
> >> >fli=3D
> >> >ghts by using Condor to prepare.=3D20
> >> >
> >> >I believe the French CNVV has developed a full-up Condor
> (w/cockpit=20
> >> and
> >> >big=3D
> >> > screens) glider simulator for use by French glider clubs.
> >> >
> >> >Our own gliding club (St Louis Soaring Association) in the US is in
> the
> >> >pro=3D
> >> >cess of building up a Condor sim with realistic flight controls and
> >> >multipl=3D
> >> >e big screens.
> >> >
> >> >Any simulator is just a training tool (Condor is technically an
> Aircrew
> >> >Tra=3D
> >> >ining Device in the lingo of the flight simulation industry) and it's
> >> >effec=3D
> >> >tiveness is driven by how it is used. Since the cockpit of a glider is
> >> not
> >> >=3D
> >> >the best classroom, used properly Condor can be a great help to
> the
> >> >learnin=3D
> >> >g process. Learn it in the sim, practice it in the glider.
> >> >
> >> >Kirk
> >> >(been using sims for training for almost 50 years now...yikes!)
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >> You ask a simple question on here and get slaughtered - I asked
> a=20
> >> simple question of someone who uses this method as a business ,
> what=20
> >> is typically the time saved using this method-its it really such a
> >> difficult=20
> >> question to answer? Why can't htat be answered on a public forum -
> =20
> >> some kind of big secret or something?
> >
> >If you want to ask a simple question, might I suggest you do it without
> an
> >=
> >accusatory tone. Writers including myself have given you plenty
> antidotal
> >"=
> >evidence" of simulation training as a good learning tool. I was
> required
> >b=
> >y my insurance to attend Flight Safety for yearly simulation training in
> a
> >=
> >complex aircraft I have flown. Could be Scott runs a small operation,
> >cater=
> >ing to glider pilots, and has not funded a multi-part double blind study
> >la=
> >rge enough for a statically valid result, to see if 1) Condor simulation
> >re=
> >duces time to ticket for; a) ab initio student; b) for licensed power
> >pilot=
> >s transitioning; c) rusty returning pilots; d) currency=E2=80=A6.. =20
> >
> >Simulation training has been around and proven since the Link trainer
> in
> >th=
> >e big one, that is WWII. Don't blame Scott or the newsgroup for
> calling
> >yo=
> >u out on your behavior! For the most part we have a great group that
> are
> >he=
> >lpful to one another and many members are the most respected
> members of
> >our=
> > sport internationally. If you truly wanted to know you would have
> taken
> >S=
> >cott up on his offer to communication directly.
>
>
> Yeah at great expense to myself, sorry but I cannot afford to make
> transantlantic telephone calls - there was no accusatory tone - asked a
> simple question that's all - dont see why that can't be answered. Think
> you are getting a bit oversensitiveness and reading things into things
> that aren't there . The guy stated this was his business and made some
> claims in a public forum - I merely asked if he had any evidence for that
> and what the average time saving was - surely a simple answer like' in
> my experience for the 50 students that have used this method - the
> average student can save 2 -4 hours on R/L training' would have
> answered the question - cannot see why that is so hard to do?
>
> If you wish to know the reason for this - is that I with some friends are
> thinking of establishing a gliding club in Bulgaria - Bulgaria is one of
> the
> poorest countries in the EU - we would like to establish a club that the a
>
> person on an average income can afford to fly - average incomes are low
> in Bulgaria @ 400euro/month - so any money savings saved in training
> would be beneficial and it may pay to use a simulator in the training
> syllabus.

Warning - thread drift. You might consider something like the LAK-16M primary trainer. There is a short youtube video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rj4oZ8bX9Oo ; aimed at younger people, but inexpensive, and looks like a lot of cheap fun.

[Paul T[_4_]]

At 21:39 20 September 2018, Dan Daly wrote:
>On Thursday, September 20, 2018 at 3:45:08 PM UTC-4, Paul T wrote:
>> At 19:09 20 September 2018, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
>> >On Thursday, September 20, 2018 at 11:00:08 AM UTC-7, Paul T
>> wrote:
>> >> At 13:31 20 September 2018, kirk.stant wrote:
>> >> >On Tuesday, September 18, 2018 at 6:00:07 PM UTC-5, Paul T
>> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> Sorry can't afford transatlantic telephone calls - I asked a
fairly
>> >> >simpl=3D
>> >> >e
>> >> >>=3D20
>> >> >> question, why can't you answer this on a public forum?
>> >> >
>> >> >Assuming you are British - do a search of BGA's excellent
>> magazine; a=20
>> >> few
>> >> >y=3D
>> >> >ears ago there was an article about a student who basically
soloed
>> in 5
>> >> >fli=3D
>> >> >ghts by using Condor to prepare.=3D20
>> >> >
>> >> >I believe the French CNVV has developed a full-up Condor
>> (w/cockpit=20
>> >> and
>> >> >big=3D
>> >> > screens) glider simulator for use by French glider clubs.
>> >> >
>> >> >Our own gliding club (St Louis Soaring Association) in the US is
in
>> the
>> >> >pro=3D
>> >> >cess of building up a Condor sim with realistic flight controls
and
>> >> >multipl=3D
>> >> >e big screens.
>> >> >
>> >> >Any simulator is just a training tool (Condor is technically an
>> Aircrew
>> >> >Tra=3D
>> >> >ining Device in the lingo of the flight simulation industry) and
it's
>> >> >effec=3D
>> >> >tiveness is driven by how it is used. Since the cockpit of a
glider
>is
>> >> not
>> >> >=3D
>> >> >the best classroom, used properly Condor can be a great help
to
>> the
>> >> >learnin=3D
>> >> >g process. Learn it in the sim, practice it in the glider.
>> >> >
>> >> >Kirk
>> >> >(been using sims for training for almost 50 years now...yikes!)
>> >>=20
>> >>=20
>> >> You ask a simple question on here and get slaughtered - I asked
>> a=20
>> >> simple question of someone who uses this method as a business
,
>> what=20
>> >> is typically the time saved using this method-its it really such a
>> >> difficult=20
>> >> question to answer? Why can't htat be answered on a public
forum -
>> =20
>> >> some kind of big secret or something?
>> >
>> >If you want to ask a simple question, might I suggest you do it
without
>> an
>> >=
>> >accusatory tone. Writers including myself have given you plenty
>> antidotal
>> >"=
>> >evidence" of simulation training as a good learning tool. I was
>> required
>> >b=
>> >y my insurance to attend Flight Safety for yearly simulation
training in
>
>> a
>> >=
>> >complex aircraft I have flown. Could be Scott runs a small
operation,
>> >cater=
>> >ing to glider pilots, and has not funded a multi-part double blind
study
>> >la=
>> >rge enough for a statically valid result, to see if 1) Condor
simulation
>> >re=
>> >duces time to ticket for; a) ab initio student; b) for licensed power
>> >pilot=
>> >s transitioning; c) rusty returning pilots; d) currency=E2=80=A6..
=20
>> >
>> >Simulation training has been around and proven since the Link
trainer
>> in
>> >th=
>> >e big one, that is WWII. Don't blame Scott or the newsgroup for
>> calling
>> >yo=
>> >u out on your behavior! For the most part we have a great group
that
>> are
>> >he=
>> >lpful to one another and many members are the most respected
>> members of
>> >our=
>> > sport internationally. If you truly wanted to know you would have
>> taken
>> >S=
>> >cott up on his offer to communication directly.
>>
>>
>> Yeah at great expense to myself, sorry but I cannot afford to make
>> transantlantic telephone calls - there was no accusatory tone - asked
a
>> simple question that's all - dont see why that can't be answered.
Think
>> you are getting a bit oversensitiveness and reading things into
things
>> that aren't there . The guy stated this was his business and made
some
>> claims in a public forum - I merely asked if he had any evidence for
that
>
>> and what the average time saving was - surely a simple answer like'
in
>> my experience for the 50 students that have used this method - the
>> average student can save 2 -4 hours on R/L training' would have
>> answered the question - cannot see why that is so hard to do?
>>
>> If you wish to know the reason for this - is that I with some friends
are
>
>> thinking of establishing a gliding club in Bulgaria - Bulgaria is one
of
>> the
>> poorest countries in the EU - we would like to establish a club that
the
>a
>>
>> person on an average income can afford to fly - average incomes are
low
>> in Bulgaria @ 400euro/month - so any money savings saved in
training
>> would be beneficial and it may pay to use a simulator in the training
>> syllabus.
>
>Warning - thread drift. You might consider something like the LAK-
16M
>primary trainer. There is a short youtube video at
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rj4oZ8bX9Oo ; aimed at younger
people, but
>inexpensive, and looks like a lot of cheap fun.

Thanks for the suggestion we are thinking used Ka2/7, Ka8, K6CR, Pirat,
Bocian, and the like. There are still good ones about at low cost,
probably offer a better price/performance/experience ratio - and there
are quite a few disused 5-8000ft runways about in Bulgaria - car tows or
simple reverse pulley would be the way to go. Maybe a bungy for
mountain expeditions!
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UClLcgDajnnsBMr4MO4uQXyA/videos
gives you an idea of some of the conditions and scenery encountered.

[[email protected]]

“I'll take "sealioning" for a thousand, Alex!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning”

Got it in one, Bob

[Paul T[_4_]]

At 13:03 21 September 2018, wrote:
>=E2=80=9CI'll take "sealioning" for a thousand, Alex!=20
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning=E2=80=9D
>
>Got it in one, Bob
>
Another ****

[Scott Manley[_3_]]

Paul T>

My replies are embedded in your message below.

>
>
> Yeah at great expense to myself, sorry but I cannot afford to make
> transantlantic telephone calls

I had no idea you were international. I assumed you were within the U.S. and simply offered the usual ways of communicating. Now that I know you are international, and assuming you are still interested in my opinions on the subject, I would suggest you download and install Skype. It costs nothing to install and nothing to use. My Skype ID is "scooter.manley". You would need to send me a contact request that I would accept, allowing us to communicate via Skype.

> - there was no accusatory tone - asked a
> simple question that's all

Over my ten plus years of advocating for the use of flight simulation to improve glider flight training using computer-based software (Condor), the idea has been met with various levels of passive resistance. My experience has been that when someone asks for "evidence", they are more likely looking to refute my claims than looking for information. So forgive me for being gun-shy.

> dont see why that can't be answered. Think
> you are getting a bit oversensitiveness and reading things into things
> that aren't there .

Guilty.

My reluctance to respond on a public forum is based on your experience asking a question on a public forum.

> The guy stated this was his business

Pretty sure I didn't state that.

> and made some
> claims in a public forum -

While it might be "assumed" by my post that the flight training services I provide are my business, they are not. I do not solicit nor have I ever accepted offers of payment for the services I provide. The training resources I have developed and make available on my website (gliderCFI.com) are free for the taking. I do not even ask for attribution. I do what I do for the good of the sport. I ask only to be taken seriously.

> I merely asked if he had any evidence for that

Nothing that could be considered irrefutable, only my perception of my experience with the 70 or so folks I have trained over the last 10-12 years. Many of those folks are happy to back up my claims with their testimony.

> and what the average time saving was - surely a simple answer like' in
> my experience for the 50 students that have used this method - the
> average student can save 2 -4 hours on R/L training' would have
> answered the question - cannot see why that is so hard to do?

The answer is not as simple as you would imagine, but I'll give it a shot.

Time savings:
In one sense, simulation-based trainees will spend considerably more time (often orders of magnitude more) performing and perfecting their flight skills than do aircaft-based trainees. For example, it is possible in simulation to perform 20-30 crosswind landings in the span of one hour. Compare that to the time needed to acquire that same level of experience in an actual aircraft. While the brains of aircraft-based trainees may have 10-30 hours of flight experience upon earning their rating, the brains of simulation-based trainees will have hundreds of hours of experience.

In simulation, there is no time spent waiting around for your chance to fly..

If the training is done at-a-distance (over the internet) there is no travel time to/from the airport.

Simulation-based training is not limited to the available days/hours of operation of a club or commercial operation. It can be done any time of the day, any day of the week, any month of the year, and with student and instructor anywhere in the world.

I could go on, but this post is already running long, and long posts are annoying.

Cost savings:
Computer-based flight training costs next to nothing and pales in comparison to the costs of conducting aircraft-based flight training. If you are looking to provide low-cost flight training, as you describe below, you can't beat simulation.

===

For more of my thoughts on the use of flight simulation to improve glider flight training (and so you don't even have to install Skype and talk to me), I would encourage you to read the 26 articles I wrote for Soaring Magazine over the span of 4.5 years. They are available on my website under the "Condor/Condor Corner" drop-down menu.

Respectfully submitted for your consideration.


>
> If you wish to know the reason for this - is that I with some friends are
> thinking of establishing a gliding club in Bulgaria - Bulgaria is one of
> the
> poorest countries in the EU - we would like to establish a club that the a
>
> person on an average income can afford to fly - average incomes are low
> in Bulgaria @ 400euro/month - so any money savings saved in training
> would be beneficial and it may pay to use a simulator in the training
> syllabus.

[Paul T[_4_]]

At 16:23 21 September 2018, Scott Manley wrote:
>Paul T>
>
>My replies are embedded in your message below.
>
>>=20
>>=20
>> Yeah at great expense to myself, sorry but I cannot afford to
make=20
>> transantlantic telephone calls
>
>I had no idea you were international. I assumed you were within the
U.S.
>a=
>nd simply offered the usual ways of communicating. Now that I know
you
>are=
> international, and assuming you are still interested in my opinions on
>the=
> subject, I would suggest you download and install Skype. It costs
>nothing=
> to install and nothing to use. My Skype ID is "scooter.manley". You
>woul=
>d need to send me a contact request that I would accept, allowing us
to
>com=
>municate via Skype.
>
>> - there was no accusatory tone - asked a=20
>> simple question that's all=20
>
>Over my ten plus years of advocating for the use of flight simulation to
>im=
>prove glider flight training using computer-based software (Condor),
the
>id=
>ea has been met with various levels of passive resistance. My
experience
>=
>has been that when someone asks for "evidence", they are more likely
>lookin=
>g to refute my claims than looking for information. So forgive me for
>bein=
>g gun-shy.
>
>> dont see why that can't be answered. Think=20
>> you are getting a bit oversensitiveness and reading things into
things=20
>> that aren't there .
>
>Guilty. =20
>
>My reluctance to respond on a public forum is based on your
experience
>aski=
>ng a question on a public forum. =20
>
>> The guy stated this was his business
>
>Pretty sure I didn't state that.
>
>> and made some=20
>> claims in a public forum -
>
>While it might be "assumed" by my post that the flight training
services I
>=
>provide are my business, they are not. I do not solicit nor have I ever
>ac=
>cepted offers of payment for the services I provide. The training
>resource=
>s I have developed and make available on my website (gliderCFI.com)
are
>fre=
>e for the taking. I do not even ask for attribution. I do what I do for
>t=
>he good of the sport. I ask only to be taken seriously. =20
>
>> I merely asked if he had any evidence for that
>
>Nothing that could be considered irrefutable, only my perception of my
>expe=
>rience with the 70 or so folks I have trained over the last 10-12 years.
>M=
>any of those folks are happy to back up my claims with their
testimony.=20
>=20
>> and what the average time saving was - surely a simple answer like'
in=20
>> my experience for the 50 students that have used this method -
the=20
>> average student can save 2 -4 hours on R/L training' would have=20
>> answered the question - cannot see why that is so hard to do?
>
>The answer is not as simple as you would imagine, but I'll give it a
shot.
>
>Time savings:
>In one sense, simulation-based trainees will spend considerably more
time
>(=
>often orders of magnitude more) performing and perfecting their flight
>skil=
>ls than do aircaft-based trainees. For example, it is possible in
>simulati=
>on to perform 20-30 crosswind landings in the span of one hour.
Compare
>th=
>at to the time needed to acquire that same level of experience in an
>actual=
> aircraft. While the brains of aircraft-based trainees may have 10-30
>hour=
>s of flight experience upon earning their rating, the brains of
>simulation-=
>based trainees will have hundreds of hours of experience.
>
>In simulation, there is no time spent waiting around for your chance to
>fly=
>..
>
>If the training is done at-a-distance (over the internet) there is no
>trave=
>l time to/from the airport.
>
>Simulation-based training is not limited to the available days/hours of
>ope=
>ration of a club or commercial operation. It can be done any time of
the
>d=
>ay, any day of the week, any month of the year, and with student and
>instru=
>ctor anywhere in the world.
>
>I could go on, but this post is already running long, and long posts are
>an=
>noying.
>
>Cost savings:
>Computer-based flight training costs next to nothing and pales in
>compariso=
>n to the costs of conducting aircraft-based flight training. If you are
>lo=
>oking to provide low-cost flight training, as you describe below, you
>can't=
> beat simulation.
>
>=3D=3D=3D
>
>For more of my thoughts on the use of flight simulation to improve
glider
>f=
>light training (and so you don't even have to install Skype and talk to
>me)=
>, I would encourage you to read the 26 articles I wrote for Soaring
>Magazin=
>e over the span of 4.5 years. They are available on my website under
the
>"=
>Condor/Condor Corner" drop-down menu.
>
>Respectfully submitted for your consideration. =20
>
>
>>=20
>> If you wish to know the reason for this - is that I with some friends
>are=
>=20
>> thinking of establishing a gliding club in Bulgaria - Bulgaria is one
of
>> the=20
>> poorest countries in the EU - we would like to establish a club that
the
>=
>a
>>=20
>> person on an average income can afford to fly - average incomes are
low=
>=20
>> in Bulgaria @ 400euro/month - so any money savings saved in
training=20
>> would be beneficial and it may pay to use a simulator in the
training=20
>> syllabus.
>
>

Thank you Scott - apologies about the misunderstanding about being
your business and for maybe my phrasing of the original question - I
shall read the articles and be in touch on 'Skype'. I am genuinely
interested to know what time/cost savings this type of training can
make.