AMS Flight and LS6 Upper Rudder Bushing

[Dan M]

Hello,

For those that don't know, AMS Flight (www.ams-flight.si) in Slovenia owns the type certificate on the LS4 and LS6 gliders, and has been providing support for them. Unlike DG, they do not require you to pay the "LS Tax". They do not support the LS1, LS3, or LS8.

That said, I emailed them a little over a month ago and asked them for an upper rudder bushing for the LS6. They pretty quickly emailed me back asking for more information, and I responded. That was the last I heard of them.. I'm wondering if 1) they just don't like me, 2) they are on some sort of extended European vacation, 3) they are hideously backed up from European vacation, or 4) the folded?

And, I'm still looking for the bushing. Does anyone know of a source in the US (or elsewhere, preferably other than DG)?

dan

[Dan Marotta]

That's great news about support for such a fine ship!

Couldn't the bushing simply be made at a local machine shop?Â* Could you
make it yourself?Â* What's the material, brass, plastic, etc.? The LS-6
is, after all, an experimental glider.

Please read THIS
<https://www.savvyaviation.com/wp-content/uploads/articles_eaa/EAA_2011-08_owner-produced-parts.pdf>
about owner produced parts.Â* I think it has the answer to your problem.

Good luck!

(The other) Dan M

On 9/21/2018 7:31 AM, Dan M wrote:
> Hello,
>
> For those that don't know, AMS Flight (www.ams-flight.si) in Slovenia owns the type certificate on the LS4 and LS6 gliders, and has been providing support for them. Unlike DG, they do not require you to pay the "LS Tax". They do not support the LS1, LS3, or LS8.
>
> That said, I emailed them a little over a month ago and asked them for an upper rudder bushing for the LS6. They pretty quickly emailed me back asking for more information, and I responded. That was the last I heard of them. I'm wondering if 1) they just don't like me, 2) they are on some sort of extended European vacation, 3) they are hideously backed up from European vacation, or 4) the folded?
>
> And, I'm still looking for the bushing. Does anyone know of a source in the US (or elsewhere, preferably other than DG)?
>
> dan

--
Dan, 5J

[Dan M]

It's great news if they are actually supporting it and didn't go belly up.

Could the bushing be made at a local machine shop? Probably. It appears to be made of brass. It's got an offset hole, I'm not sure what the dimensions are supposed to be (or if there is supposed to be a taper) or where I'd get that from. My guess is, getting a bushing custom made at a machine shop would be quite expensive -- because anything custom made is quite expensive.

On Friday, September 21, 2018 at 10:39:21 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> That's great news about support for such a fine ship!
>
>
>
> Couldn't the bushing simply be made at a local machine shop?Â* Could
> you make it yourself?Â* What's the material, brass, plastic, etc.?Â*
> The LS-6 is, after all, an experimental glider.
>
>
>
> Please
> read THIS about owner produced parts.Â* I think it has the
> answer to your problem.
>
>
>
> Good luck!
>
>
>
> (The other) Dan M
>
>
>
>
> On 9/21/2018 7:31 AM, Dan M wrote:
>
>
>
> Hello,
>
> For those that don't know, AMS Flight (www.ams-flight.si) in Slovenia owns the type certificate on the LS4 and LS6 gliders, and has been providing support for them. Unlike DG, they do not require you to pay the "LS Tax". They do not support the LS1, LS3, or LS8.
>
> That said, I emailed them a little over a month ago and asked them for an upper rudder bushing for the LS6. They pretty quickly emailed me back asking for more information, and I responded. That was the last I heard of them. I'm wondering if 1) they just don't like me, 2) they are on some sort of extended European vacation, 3) they are hideously backed up from European vacation, or 4) the folded?
>
> And, I'm still looking for the bushing. Does anyone know of a source in the US (or elsewhere, preferably other than DG)?
>
> dan
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Dan, 5J

[[email protected]]

I don't know if things have changed with AMS Flight, but if you do a search on RAS for "AMS Flight," you will find a lengthy thread detailing the horror stories of people who tried to deal with them. The thread is from 2010.


https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rec.aviation.soaring/ams$20flight$20unethical%7Csort:date/rec.aviation.soaring/Drd024z2MhE/5hONLQwksokJ

[Dan Marotta]

One of the acceptable methods for making the part was simply to hand the
old part to someone with the tools and abilities and asking him to make
one of these.Â* Your local EAA chapter would also be a place to get the
part made.Â* Most home builders will perform such a simple task for no
charge simply for the pleasure of keeping an aircraft flying.

On 9/21/2018 8:49 AM, Dan M wrote:
> It's great news if they are actually supporting it and didn't go belly up.
>
> Could the bushing be made at a local machine shop? Probably. It appears to be made of brass. It's got an offset hole, I'm not sure what the dimensions are supposed to be (or if there is supposed to be a taper) or where I'd get that from. My guess is, getting a bushing custom made at a machine shop would be quite expensive -- because anything custom made is quite expensive.
>
> On Friday, September 21, 2018 at 10:39:21 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> That's great news about support for such a fine ship!
>>
>>
>>
>> Couldn't the bushing simply be made at a local machine shop?Â* Could
>> you make it yourself?Â* What's the material, brass, plastic, etc.?
>> The LS-6 is, after all, an experimental glider.
>>
>>
>>
>> Please
>> read THIS about owner produced parts.Â* I think it has the
>> answer to your problem.
>>
>>
>>
>> Good luck!
>>
>>
>>
>> (The other) Dan M
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 9/21/2018 7:31 AM, Dan M wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> For those that don't know, AMS Flight (www.ams-flight.si) in Slovenia owns the type certificate on the LS4 and LS6 gliders, and has been providing support for them. Unlike DG, they do not require you to pay the "LS Tax". They do not support the LS1, LS3, or LS8.
>>
>> That said, I emailed them a little over a month ago and asked them for an upper rudder bushing for the LS6. They pretty quickly emailed me back asking for more information, and I responded. That was the last I heard of them. I'm wondering if 1) they just don't like me, 2) they are on some sort of extended European vacation, 3) they are hideously backed up from European vacation, or 4) the folded?
>>
>> And, I'm still looking for the bushing. Does anyone know of a source in the US (or elsewhere, preferably other than DG)?
>>
>> dan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Dan, 5J

--
Dan, 5J

[Dan M]

Well... That seems quite unpleasant. It was Ales who wrote back to me...

He wrote:

"Yes, we have rudder upper bushings available. Look the attached drawings.
Position 13, you have alternatives, or eccentric bushing 4R5-11 or a cylindrical MS bushing and the needle bearing?

After your answer we can answer you with an offer.
With kind regards,"

His diagram shows the part as: "Nadelhulse HK0609+MS-Buchse phi 12*1*10"

HK0609 seems to be a fairly off-the-shelf needle bearing. I have no idea what the "MS" is. Or what phi 12*1*10 means -- I presume that's some sort of dimension, but HK0609 seems to be a pretty standard part -- 6mm ID, 10mm OD, and 9mm thick.

Also, I clearly have the eccentric bushing and based on his drawings its not clear to me whether these are interchangeable. I can't imagine that switching between the two wouldn't locate the rudder in a different place.
The eccentric bushing is identified as "eccentric bushing" in the drawing and the part number 4R5-11 appears to be an internal LS part number that is NOT a generic part. Given a choice though of the two, the needle bearing seems superior to a bushing any day.

It's also unclear to me how its held in. It may actually be glued in the drawing has "Loctite" written on it, but I can't imagine either the bushing or bearing is threaded in, so maybe they just used "Loctite" as a generic word for glue/resin.

If I can just tap the old part out, buy an HK0609 and glue it in, that would be the easiest solution. Is it possible that the cylindrical needle bearing is in some sort of sleeve/bushing that adjusts its location?

dan


On Friday, September 21, 2018 at 11:04:23 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> I don't know if things have changed with AMS Flight, but if you do a search on RAS for "AMS Flight," you will find a lengthy thread detailing the horror stories of people who tried to deal with them. The thread is from 2010..
>
>
> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rec.aviation.soaring/ams$20flight$20unethical%7Csort:date/rec.aviation.soaring/Drd024z2MhE/5hONLQwksokJ

[Dan M]

Looking at a photo I took of the bushing, assuming it has an ID of 6mm (which is probably about right), the OD is about 12mm. The center is probably offset by between 1 and 1.5mm. I'm guessing its 10mm thick, but that's just from memory. So perhaps that means the "phi 12*1*10" means 12mm OD, 10mm ID with a 1mm offset, given that the OD of the HK0609 is 10mm.

dan

On Friday, September 21, 2018 at 11:39:53 AM UTC-4, Dan M wrote:
> Well... That seems quite unpleasant. It was Ales who wrote back to me....
>
> He wrote:
>
> "Yes, we have rudder upper bushings available. Look the attached drawings..
> Position 13, you have alternatives, or eccentric bushing 4R5-11 or a cylindrical MS bushing and the needle bearing?
>
> After your answer we can answer you with an offer.
> With kind regards,"
>
> His diagram shows the part as: "Nadelhulse HK0609+MS-Buchse phi 12*1*10"
>
> HK0609 seems to be a fairly off-the-shelf needle bearing. I have no idea what the "MS" is. Or what phi 12*1*10 means -- I presume that's some sort of dimension, but HK0609 seems to be a pretty standard part -- 6mm ID, 10mm OD, and 9mm thick.
>
> Also, I clearly have the eccentric bushing and based on his drawings its not clear to me whether these are interchangeable. I can't imagine that switching between the two wouldn't locate the rudder in a different place.
> The eccentric bushing is identified as "eccentric bushing" in the drawing and the part number 4R5-11 appears to be an internal LS part number that is NOT a generic part. Given a choice though of the two, the needle bearing seems superior to a bushing any day.
>
> It's also unclear to me how its held in. It may actually be glued in the drawing has "Loctite" written on it, but I can't imagine either the bushing or bearing is threaded in, so maybe they just used "Loctite" as a generic word for glue/resin.
>
> If I can just tap the old part out, buy an HK0609 and glue it in, that would be the easiest solution. Is it possible that the cylindrical needle bearing is in some sort of sleeve/bushing that adjusts its location?
>
> dan
>
>
> On Friday, September 21, 2018 at 11:04:23 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> > I don't know if things have changed with AMS Flight, but if you do a search on RAS for "AMS Flight," you will find a lengthy thread detailing the horror stories of people who tried to deal with them. The thread is from 2010.
> >
> >
> > https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rec.aviation.soaring/ams$20flight$20unethical%7Csort:date/rec.aviation.soaring/Drd024z2MhE/5hONLQwksokJ

[AS]

On Friday, September 21, 2018 at 11:39:53 AM UTC-4, Dan M wrote:
> Well... That seems quite unpleasant. It was Ales who wrote back to me....
>
> He wrote:
>
> "Yes, we have rudder upper bushings available. Look the attached drawings..
> Position 13, you have alternatives, or eccentric bushing 4R5-11 or a cylindrical MS bushing and the needle bearing?
>
> After your answer we can answer you with an offer.
> With kind regards,"
>
> His diagram shows the part as: "Nadelhulse HK0609+MS-Buchse phi 12*1*10"
>
> HK0609 seems to be a fairly off-the-shelf needle bearing. I have no idea what the "MS" is. Or what phi 12*1*10 means -- I presume that's some sort of dimension, but HK0609 seems to be a pretty standard part -- 6mm ID, 10mm OD, and 9mm thick.
>
> Also, I clearly have the eccentric bushing and based on his drawings its not clear to me whether these are interchangeable. I can't imagine that switching between the two wouldn't locate the rudder in a different place.
> The eccentric bushing is identified as "eccentric bushing" in the drawing and the part number 4R5-11 appears to be an internal LS part number that is NOT a generic part. Given a choice though of the two, the needle bearing seems superior to a bushing any day.
>
> It's also unclear to me how its held in. It may actually be glued in the drawing has "Loctite" written on it, but I can't imagine either the bushing or bearing is threaded in, so maybe they just used "Loctite" as a generic word for glue/resin.
>
> If I can just tap the old part out, buy an HK0609 and glue it in, that would be the easiest solution. Is it possible that the cylindrical needle bearing is in some sort of sleeve/bushing that adjusts its location?
>
> dan
>
>
> On Friday, September 21, 2018 at 11:04:23 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> > I don't know if things have changed with AMS Flight, but if you do a search on RAS for "AMS Flight," you will find a lengthy thread detailing the horror stories of people who tried to deal with them. The thread is from 2010.
> >
> >
> > https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rec.aviation.soaring/ams$20flight$20unethical%7Csort:date/rec.aviation.soaring/Drd024z2MhE/5hONLQwksokJ


Hi Dan,

>> I have no idea what the "MS" is. <<
MS is the abbreviation for 'Messing' or Brass.

Uli
'AS'

[[email protected]]

Hi Dan,

just a detail in this discussion, but actually AMS is no longer the owner of the LS6 type certificate. DG got it back several years ago (see https://www.easa.europa.eu/sites/default/files/dfu/TCDS_EASA_A_095_LS_Sailplanes_issue-7.pdf).

You will need the brass part for the upper rudder bushing. The needle bearing is for the lower one.

Christoph

[Dan M]

Thanks so much for all the info. This is great!

According to the drawings, the bottom "bushing" is an off the shelf needle bearing.

The top bushing is listed as either a brass eccentric bushing, it also lists an alternate off the shelf needle bearing (of a different size from the bottom) + MS (brass) bushing.

The bushing that is in there appears to be glued in. Do you know the proper dimensions of it or the removal/replacement instructions?

Dan

[[email protected]]

On Friday, September 21, 2018 at 2:51:58 PM UTC-5, Dan M wrote:
> Thanks so much for all the info. This is great!
>
> According to the drawings, the bottom "bushing" is an off the shelf needle bearing.
>
> The top bushing is listed as either a brass eccentric bushing, it also lists an alternate off the shelf needle bearing (of a different size from the bottom) + MS (brass) bushing.
>
> The bushing that is in there appears to be glued in. Do you know the proper dimensions of it or the removal/replacement instructions?
>
> Dan

Dan, the bushing is eccentric so that you can adjust it. Here's how: remove the old brass bushing (you may have to heat it up to loosen the old Loctite). Clean the opening, insert the new bushing, install the rudder. Move the rudder left/right and center the top part vs. the rudder fin so that you have even spacing left and right. While doing that the bushing will slightly rotate into the correct position. Now carefully remove the rudder by lifting it out from the hinge points. Mark the position of the bushing vs. the steel opening it rests in. Glue the brass bushing into that precise position with Loctite, I would use 'Blue'. Re-install the rudder. Done.
Herb

[[email protected]]

On Friday, September 21, 2018 at 7:25:49 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> On Friday, September 21, 2018 at 2:51:58 PM UTC-5, Dan M wrote:
> > Thanks so much for all the info. This is great!
> >
> > According to the drawings, the bottom "bushing" is an off the shelf needle bearing.
> >
> > The top bushing is listed as either a brass eccentric bushing, it also lists an alternate off the shelf needle bearing (of a different size from the bottom) + MS (brass) bushing.
> >
> > The bushing that is in there appears to be glued in. Do you know the proper dimensions of it or the removal/replacement instructions?
> >
> > Dan
>
> Dan, the bushing is eccentric so that you can adjust it. Here's how: remove the old brass bushing (you may have to heat it up to loosen the old Loctite). Clean the opening, insert the new bushing, install the rudder. Move the rudder left/right and center the top part vs. the rudder fin so that you have even spacing left and right. While doing that the bushing will slightly rotate into the correct position. Now carefully remove the rudder by lifting it out from the hinge points. Mark the position of the bushing vs. the steel opening it rests in. Glue the brass bushing into that precise position with Loctite, I would use 'Blue'. Re-install the rudder. Done.
> Herb

Dan, I forgot to mention: by all means, have a new brass bushing made at a local machine shop. The type of brass used should not matter. Take the old bushing to them for measurements and very carefully measure the steel pin at the upper rudder hinge point with a micrometer (I think it's 5 mm), caliper is not precise enough. If necessary, take the rudder to the machine shop for that measurement. Assemble everything after putting a good grease into the bushings (needle bearing and upper brass bearing).