Shooting down UAVs

[AS]

https://techcrunch.com/2018/10/04/despite-objection-congress-passes-bill-that-lets-homeland-security-shoot-down-private-drones/?yptr=yahoo

I just hope that there is some kind of training involved for the guys doing the shooting so they can tell the difference between a true UAV and a glider. Drones or UAV do not necessarily come in the shape of a quad-copter.
The story of the trigger-happy sheriff in SC comes to mind.

Uli
'AS'

[Dan Marotta]

A few years back, while flying our Pipistrel Sinus (long since gone) on
downwind, we were hit from the left side by something.Â* I suspect it was
a drone operated by one of the Google geeks that infested our field
before they gave up and went back to California (leaving behind a $many
millions building on the field).Â* The left door was caved in on my lap
and I had to hand the ship over to my wife while I muscled the door out
of the way of my controls.Â* After landing I found a scuff mark on the
window but no biological matter.



On 10/4/2018 8:23 AM, AS wrote:
> https://techcrunch.com/2018/10/04/despite-objection-congress-passes-bill-that-lets-homeland-security-shoot-down-private-drones/?yptr=yahoo
>
> I just hope that there is some kind of training involved for the guys doing the shooting so they can tell the difference between a true UAV and a glider. Drones or UAV do not necessarily come in the shape of a quad-copter.
> The story of the trigger-happy sheriff in SC comes to mind.
>
> Uli
> 'AS'

--
Dan, 5J

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

I agree with the training comment.
I also wonder, how often do peeps think a "shootdown" will be weapons from the ground vs. from the air?
If from the air, using what? Not much real radar profile, essentially NO heat signature. If "guns", are the shooters cognizant of whatever may be behind the target? Since these are usually low altitude, this more likely means shooting down.

Why do I bring this up? Back in the 60's, a couple houses from me (before I moved here, may find an article with Ringwood, NJ in it), an F4(?) was testing wing loads (bombs, tanks, whatever) and they had an issue. The pilot looked down, only saw trees, punched out. Our whole town is basically old forest and roads/houses disappear.
The jet spiraled down, hit trees, a house, scattered bits up the street. Pilot was OK, ground peeps were OK.

Fast forward, some govt. entity wants to shoot down a UAV (hopefully "U"), looks, sees no human activity, shoots, misses and maybe hits ground peeps or homes, etc.
What a nightmare that becomes.

[AS]

On Thursday, October 4, 2018 at 12:19:05 PM UTC-4, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> I agree with the training comment.
> I also wonder, how often do peeps think a "shootdown" will be weapons from the ground vs. from the air?
> If from the air, using what? Not much real radar profile, essentially NO heat signature. If "guns", are the shooters cognizant of whatever may be behind the target? Since these are usually low altitude, this more likely means shooting down.
>
> Why do I bring this up? Back in the 60's, a couple houses from me (before I moved here, may find an article with Ringwood, NJ in it), an F4(?) was testing wing loads (bombs, tanks, whatever) and they had an issue. The pilot looked down, only saw trees, punched out. Our whole town is basically old forest and roads/houses disappear.
> The jet spiraled down, hit trees, a house, scattered bits up the street. Pilot was OK, ground peeps were OK.
>
> Fast forward, some govt. entity wants to shoot down a UAV (hopefully "U"), looks, sees no human activity, shoots, misses and maybe hits ground peeps or homes, etc.
> What a nightmare that becomes.

Well - that first article piqued my interest and I found this one about Deer Trail, CO, a small town west of Denver on I-70, which sells drone hunting licenses. If you scroll down to the picture of the actual license, it shows a military type drone with glider-like wings!
Make sure you don't circle low over that town! :-)
Wouldn't it be ironic if someone with that town's license bags a government owned, military grade drone? A lawyer's wet dream.... ;-)

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-c1-colorado-drones-20140116-dto-htmlstory.html

Uli
'AS'

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

Interesting, while I am not well versed in drone rules, I thought most cases were they were to be below 500'AGL, especially within a few miles of an airport.
Sorta seems like, if there is a local airport of any kind, legally ALL drones (10 year old with a present, having fun) could get the drone shot down in that area.

Curious what the FAA says, since they sorta have "sovereign rights of US airspace". They, as a US federal branch, sorta gets ****ed at state and local government trying to take control, let alone citizens.

[S9]

https://www.faa.gov/uas/ - information on drone regulations. stay under 400' unless operating under waiver.

On Thursday, October 4, 2018 at 1:19:43 PM UTC-5, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> Interesting, while I am not well versed in drone rules, I thought most cases were they were to be below 500'AGL, especially within a few miles of an airport.
> Sorta seems like, if there is a local airport of any kind, legally ALL drones (10 year old with a present, having fun) could get the drone shot down in that area.
>
> Curious what the FAA says, since they sorta have "sovereign rights of US airspace". They, as a US federal branch, sorta gets ****ed at state and local government trying to take control, let alone citizens.

[Mike C]

On Thursday, October 4, 2018 at 8:24:03 PM UTC-6, S9 wrote:
> https://www.faa.gov/uas/ - information on drone regulations. stay under 400' unless operating under waiver.
>
> On Thursday, October 4, 2018 at 1:19:43 PM UTC-5, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> > Interesting, while I am not well versed in drone rules, I thought most cases were they were to be below 500'AGL, especially within a few miles of an airport.
> > Sorta seems like, if there is a local airport of any kind, legally ALL drones (10 year old with a present, having fun) could get the drone shot down in that area.
> >
> > Curious what the FAA says, since they sorta have "sovereign rights of US airspace". They, as a US federal branch, sorta gets ****ed at state and local government trying to take control, let alone citizens.

Unfortunately RC Sailplanes are now considered drones and this will end RC Soaring in the United States if the AMA can not get waivers for community based self regulation.

Mike

[Pete[_9_]]

R/C aviation has been the start for countless pilots who have gone on to do great things in aviation. I myself came from R/C soaring into this beautiful sport. We should be on the side of the AMA and R/C pilots. They are a big feed into our hobby.

Companies like DJI that have created consumer ready, autopilot drones have created this issue. Now you need no pilot skills to do something stupid (inevitable outcome when it comes to humans).

For every one idiot that "could" do something stupid, there are 1,000's of responsible pilots. You can legislate away every risk out there.

Which is honestly more dangerous? Some yocal' cop with a handgun taking down the DJI drone at a football game or model hobbyist flying a sailplane line-of-sight 401' above an AMA sanctioned field?

This is 100% about money. We should learn from this because the SSA, like the AMA, has no money to fight the government. If they come for us, we'll suffer the same fate....

[CindyB[_2_]]

On Thursday, October 4, 2018 at 9:19:05 AM UTC-7, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> I agree with the training comment.
> I also wonder, how often do peeps think a "shootdown" will be weapons from the ground vs. from the air?
> If from the air, using what?
<snipped>

>
> Fast forward, some govt. entity wants to shoot down a UAV (hopefully "U"), looks, sees no human activity, shoots, misses and maybe hits ground peeps or homes, etc.
> What a nightmare that becomes.


ALL this talk makes me think of the "Battle of Palmdale".
Truth is stranger than fiction.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Palmdale

I watch Predators in flight test and flight training locally and get to dodge them in a 2-33 or a Pawnee on the occasional Saturday.

And if you think you should worry about the little (dr)ones being a problem, you should know that more than one Predator has lost it's little brain. And operator errors by the big boys are as diverse as if they had fannies on board.

"The 237 "Class A" drone crashes

According to accident-investigation reports and other records, since 2001 there have been 237 military drone crashes that were categorized as 'Class A' mishaps: accidents that destroyed the aircraft or caused at least $2 million in damage."

And those aren't all in Afghanistan.

2001 thru 2016 -- 52 were in the US, AND NOT ALL on military airbases.

If that isn't creepy enough - we've got at least 10 Predators on Mexico border patrol for us. And the Mexicans have had one of theirs plop down in the US in 2010. No investigation, we just handed it back. Mexico is buying from the Israeli's and others, and building their own.

This is too long already -- but you can catch the gist that I don't trust drones, their operators or the guvmint(much).

Recreational reading on big drone crashes follows for the persistent.
CA, NV, AZ, TX, FL, MD, NY . . ..
The little ones just start forest fires and crash into people and planes. But hey, the FAA has a licensing and registration program.

Cindy



A Reaper (MQ-9A) owned by the Air Force crashed on Aug. 31, 2010
Reported location
two miles north of Gray Butte Airfield, Palmdale, Calif., United States

Estimated damage $10,300,000
What happened:
A brand-new Reaper crashed on private property in the California desert during a training mission. About two hours into the flight, the Reaper stalled after it slowed down too much and rolled left, entering into a spin before crashing onto the desert floor. Air Force investigators concluded that the cause was pilot error due to improper control of the aircraft's speed and angle. Investigators also found that the training program did not adequately prepare the pilot for risks associated with a slow flight. "We were all in disbelief," a contractor who was in the ground-control station told investigators. "We just didn't, I just didn't expect anything to happen on a fairly benign flight."




A Global Hawk (RQ-4A) owned by the Navy crashed on June 11, 2012
Reported location:
near Elliott Island Road, Dorchester County, Md., 22 miles east of Naval Air Station Patuxent River, United States

What happened
A Navy surveillance drone crashed into a wildlife refuge on Maryland's Eastern Shore after a malfunction with the navigation system. The RQ-4A aircraft was a Broad Area Maritime Surveillance Demonstrator -- the Navy's version of the Air Force Global Hawk. The pilot and crew were civilian contractors from the manufacturer Northrop Grumman. Navy investigators blamed a failure of the right inboard ruddervator actuator but also criticized the pilot for not following emergency guidelines.

A Hunter (RQ-5A) owned by the Army crashed on May 10, 2004
Reported location : Florida, United States
What happened
An Army Hunter drone crashed into trees after it lost its link from its ground-control station, according to Army safety officials. The Army's Forces Command said it did not conduct a publicly releasable investigation.

A Reaper (MQ-9) owned by the Air Force crashed on Dec. 5, 2012
Reported location:
3 miles northeast of Mount Irish, Douglas County, Nev., United States
(cb-Mt Irish is ~75 miles north of Creech AFB. Actually Lincoln Co.
Apparently the AF still don't know where it crashed.)

Estimated damage: $9,646,088
What happened :
A Reaper crashed in an uninhabited area during a training exercise after going into a stall. Investigators determined that crew error was the primary cause. The ground-control station was improperly reconfigured from a setup for flying Predators to a setup for flying Reapers. When the pilot guided the throttle, it mistakenly triggered a reverse thrust because of the incorrect setup. "We're in the soup here," the pilot said, according to a voice-recording transcript. "Dude, uh, we're not sure what the aircraft is doing -- yeah, we crashed."


A Reaper (MQ-9) owned by the Air Force crashed on Nov. 12, 2013
Reported location
about 12 miles from the eastern shore of Lake Ontario, N.Y.; 20 miles northeast of Port of Oswego, NY; and 35 miles from Fort Drum's Wheeler-Sack Army Airfield, United States

Estimated damage $10 million
What happened:
A Reaper flown by the New York Air National Guard crashed into Lake Ontario, about 12 miles from the lake's eastern shore. The plane malfunctioned at 1:30 p.m., about three hours into a training mission. Some parts of the aircraft were recovered after they washed up on the lake's shoreline, but the bulk of the wreckage has not been found. The Reaper departed from Fort Drum, N.Y. The Air Combat Command convened an Accident Investigation Board; a public report is pending.

[2G]

On Friday, October 5, 2018 at 4:19:17 AM UTC-7, Pete wrote:
> R/C aviation has been the start for countless pilots who have gone on to do great things in aviation. I myself came from R/C soaring into this beautiful sport. We should be on the side of the AMA and R/C pilots. They are a big feed into our hobby.
>
> Companies like DJI that have created consumer ready, autopilot drones have created this issue. Now you need no pilot skills to do something stupid (inevitable outcome when it comes to humans).
>
> For every one idiot that "could" do something stupid, there are 1,000's of responsible pilots. You can legislate away every risk out there.
>
> Which is honestly more dangerous? Some yocal' cop with a handgun taking down the DJI drone at a football game or model hobbyist flying a sailplane line-of-sight 401' above an AMA sanctioned field?
>
> This is 100% about money. We should learn from this because the SSA, like the AMA, has no money to fight the government. If they come for us, we'll suffer the same fate....

People are buying and operating these UAVs who have no concept of airspace rules and regulations. Here is one example of totally reckless behavior that I found some time ago:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfxdeRx2fLA
Here is just one comment by scofflaws:

"Its regardless not irregardless and **** the government saying you have to abide by these rules **** that. Earth or sky doesnt belong to the government."

What totally surprised me, however, was that Bruno Vassal, a well-known glider pilot and promoter of glider contests, posted a comment (later deleted) that said this guy was operating completely legally!

Tom

[Sierra Whiskey]

Not all UAV's, UAS, or "Drones" are bad or even dangerous. It just depends on the application and execution. There are many safety measures that go into launching one of these experimental programs, but as with any experiment there is the inherent risk of failure from which we must learn. (More specific to Government and Commercial Programs as opposed to Private Use UAS)

http://www.aoml.noaa.gov/keynotes/keynotes_0914_coyote_success.html

Certainly the technology is no where near replacing humans in the cockpit, however humans are subject to their own degree of threats and errors. There are certain places where the technology can be useful and resistance to the technology only impedes the ability to broaden our understanding of the environment in which we live and operate.

[Bojack J4]

When they sell inexpensive drones at the shopping mall like toys, what do we expect? These kids/people who buy them are in "play with my toy" mode.....not "responsible FAA licensed pilot" mode.

As a former r/c glider pilot (LSF level 4), I've had many high altitude flights and unintentionally gotten sucked up into clouds and lost the sailplane (20+lbs 180 inch wingspans) Yikes! Never really considered the dangers in that at the time. Google the cross country competitions like the Great Race held near Joliet Illinois. Fortunately we were a relatively small in numbers and expensive hobby compared to the numerous and cheap drones of today, and we flew them out away from populated areas (mostly).

To this day it amazes me that r/c sailplanes often get flown at our full-sized sailplane contests right over millions of dollars worth of assembled gliders. But it's an airport environment, right? Never mind battery failure, radio control interference...etc.

Sometimes even FAA pilots don't use their heads while flying their remote control toys. What should we expect from a 15 y.o. boy then?

What a dilemma.

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, October 7, 2018 at 7:36:18 AM UTC-5, Bojack J4 wrote:
> When they sell inexpensive drones at the shopping mall like toys, what do we expect? These kids/people who buy them are in "play with my toy" mode.....not "responsible FAA licensed pilot" mode.
>
> As a former r/c glider pilot (LSF level 4), I've had many high altitude flights and unintentionally gotten sucked up into clouds and lost the sailplane (20+lbs 180 inch wingspans) Yikes! Never really considered the dangers in that at the time. Google the cross country competitions like the Great Race held near Joliet Illinois. Fortunately we were a relatively small in numbers and expensive hobby compared to the numerous and cheap drones of today, and we flew them out away from populated areas (mostly).
>
> To this day it amazes me that r/c sailplanes often get flown at our full-sized sailplane contests right over millions of dollars worth of assembled gliders. But it's an airport environment, right? Never mind battery failure, radio control interference...etc.
>
> Sometimes even FAA pilots don't use their heads while flying their remote control toys. What should we expect from a 15 y.o. boy then?
>
> What a dilemma.

In the late 90's I arranged to land my-24 at an RC Glider field near Fayetteville NC during one of their contests (had spoken with their CD prior). Couldn't find the field at first but then spotted the rather big models in the air. I joined their thermal from above and we circled for a while. I then set up a circuit from behind the modelers and landed within their well maintained 500' runway. They were thrilled to have me, never been photographed so much. They came up with silly ideas like putting their rc tow planes in front of my glider: "hey, I wonder if we could tow you back up". When my son came with the trailer they were all over that thing: "I'm going to build me one of these in miniature". I'm still an honorary club member, have the T-shirt to prove it.
Had a great time, no dilemmas.
Herb, J7

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Sunday, October 7, 2018 at 7:45:24 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Sunday, October 7, 2018 at 7:36:18 AM UTC-5, Bojack J4 wrote:
> > When they sell inexpensive drones at the shopping mall like toys, what do we expect? These kids/people who buy them are in "play with my toy" mode....not "responsible FAA licensed pilot" mode.
> >
> > As a former r/c glider pilot (LSF level 4), I've had many high altitude flights and unintentionally gotten sucked up into clouds and lost the sailplane (20+lbs 180 inch wingspans) Yikes! Never really considered the dangers in that at the time. Google the cross country competitions like the Great Race held near Joliet Illinois. Fortunately we were a relatively small in numbers and expensive hobby compared to the numerous and cheap drones of today, and we flew them out away from populated areas (mostly).
> >
> > To this day it amazes me that r/c sailplanes often get flown at our full-sized sailplane contests right over millions of dollars worth of assembled gliders. But it's an airport environment, right? Never mind battery failure, radio control interference...etc.
> >
> > Sometimes even FAA pilots don't use their heads while flying their remote control toys. What should we expect from a 15 y.o. boy then?
> >
> > What a dilemma.
>
> In the late 90's I arranged to land my-24 at an RC Glider field near Fayetteville NC during one of their contests (had spoken with their CD prior). Couldn't find the field at first but then spotted the rather big models in the air. I joined their thermal from above and we circled for a while. I then set up a circuit from behind the modelers and landed within their well maintained 500' runway. They were thrilled to have me, never been photographed so much. They came up with silly ideas like putting their rc tow planes in front of my glider: "hey, I wonder if we could tow you back up". When my son came with the trailer they were all over that thing: "I'm going to build me one of these in miniature". I'm still an honorary club member, have the T-shirt to prove it.
> Had a great time, no dilemmas.
> Herb, J7

Funny, I landed a helicopter on a RC field once when I had a chip light and some vibrations, no one went out of their way to make me feel welcomed :(

[Ernst]

The following link was posted on streckenflug.at.
Thought it should be on ras as well.

Ernst

https://www.udayton.edu/blogs/udri/18-09-13-risk-in-the-sky.php

[[email protected]]

I was on tow, passing 1500 feet, when I saw what I thought was another sailplane about a mile ahead of us. Thought it was not a factor, but then the tow pilot kicked right rudder. Was wondering why he did that, when I saw a 10 foot model sailplane headed straight for my left wing! I rolled 90 degrees right and In a heartbeat, it passed within one wingspan of my head! The next morning I attended the AMA pilot meeting and discussed the incident. They were holding their national model soaring championships. They winch launched the models up to several hundred feet, then take off on course. Task that day was 15 miles with 2 turnpoints. Each pilot had a driver, spotter with the pilot seated in a recliner chair strapped in the back of a pickup. These guys are serious competitors! Hope the new rules don't put an end to a fascinating endeavor.
JJ