ADSB panel display

[[email protected]]

My Trig22 now generates ADSB-out in my Experimental glider. I'd like to add a reasonable-cost adsb-in receiver and a bright panel-mounted traffic display (I can't see iphone or ipad screens here in the western sunlight). Any suggestions? I see the PingUSB adsb receiver ($200) and the AirAvionics ATD57 display ($575), but have been unable to find out if these systems will work together.

[Ben Hirashima]

Have you seen an iPhone X display in sunlight? I find it perfectly readable. Technology is constantly improving...

[kinsell]

On 10/08/2018 12:26 PM, wrote:
> My Trig22 now generates ADSB-out in my Experimental glider. I'd like to add a reasonable-cost adsb-in receiver and a bright panel-mounted traffic display (I can't see iphone or ipad screens here in the western sunlight). Any suggestions? I see the PingUSB adsb receiver ($200) and the AirAvionics ATD57 display ($575), but have been unable to find out if these systems will work together.
>

I believe the PingUSB and the follow-on Scout product are both rigged to
work only with ForeFlight. PingUSB does not receive weather (FIS-B), so
that would rule it out for me.

https://uavionix.com/products/pingusb/

I'd suggest a Stratux system, either build it or buy it assembled, works
with a wide range of electronic flight bags (EFB's). Stratus 3 is a
nice unit also, but on the pricey side.

-Dave

[Darryl Ramm]

On Monday, October 8, 2018 at 11:26:23 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> My Trig22 now generates ADSB-out in my Experimental glider. I'd like to add a reasonable-cost adsb-in receiver and a bright panel-mounted traffic display (I can't see iphone or ipad screens here in the western sunlight). Any suggestions? I see the PingUSB adsb receiver ($200) and the AirAvionics ATD57 display ($575), but have been unable to find out if these systems will work together.

This is pretty clear in the specs, and so many past discussions here. The AirAvionc display works with FLARM and Garmin TIS protocols. The PingUSB sends out GDL protocol (as used by many apps like ForeFlight). So nope will not work.

[[email protected]]

On Monday, October 8, 2018 at 3:31:41 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> On Monday, October 8, 2018 at 11:26:23 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> > My Trig22 now generates ADSB-out in my Experimental glider. I'd like to add a reasonable-cost adsb-in receiver and a bright panel-mounted traffic display (I can't see iphone or ipad screens here in the western sunlight). Any suggestions? I see the PingUSB adsb receiver ($200) and the AirAvionics ATD57 display ($575), but have been unable to find out if these systems will work together.
>
> This is pretty clear in the specs, and so many past discussions here. The AirAvionc display works with FLARM and Garmin TIS protocols. The PingUSB sends out GDL protocol (as used by many apps like ForeFlight). So nope will not work.


I am surprised the ATD57 does not accept the common protocol used in the US for adsb.

[[email protected]]

On Monday, October 8, 2018 at 12:55:09 PM UTC-7, Ben Hirashima wrote:
> Have you seen an iPhone X display in sunlight? I find it perfectly readable. Technology is constantly improving...

thank you Ben, I did look at an iphone X at max brightness, but didn't consider it any better than my iphone 8+. I do manage to use Foreflight on my iphone 8+, but it is a struggle, not what I call 'easily readable' in my cockpit, as my LX moving map is. I'm in Nevada, where the sun is very bright, even with a blue canopy. I want a panel mounted, dedicated, bright display for adsb targets.

[Darryl Ramm]

On Monday, October 8, 2018 at 5:14:16 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Monday, October 8, 2018 at 12:55:09 PM UTC-7, Ben Hirashima wrote:
> > Have you seen an iPhone X display in sunlight? I find it perfectly readable. Technology is constantly improving...
>
> thank you Ben, I did look at an iphone X at max brightness, but didn't consider it any better than my iphone 8+. I do manage to use Foreflight on my iphone 8+, but it is a struggle, not what I call 'easily readable' in my cockpit, as my LX moving map is. I'm in Nevada, where the sun is very bright, even with a blue canopy. I want a panel mounted, dedicated, bright display for adsb targets.

PowerFLARM connected to a AirAvionic ATD is likely the best you will get there.

No UAT In/TIS-B/ADS-R support, but them are the tradeoffs.

[Richard Pfiffner[_2_]]

On Monday, October 8, 2018 at 5:38:39 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> On Monday, October 8, 2018 at 5:14:16 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > On Monday, October 8, 2018 at 12:55:09 PM UTC-7, Ben Hirashima wrote:
> > > Have you seen an iPhone X display in sunlight? I find it perfectly readable. Technology is constantly improving...
> >
> > thank you Ben, I did look at an iphone X at max brightness, but didn't consider it any better than my iphone 8+. I do manage to use Foreflight on my iphone 8+, but it is a struggle, not what I call 'easily readable' in my cockpit, as my LX moving map is. I'm in Nevada, where the sun is very bright, even with a blue canopy. I want a panel mounted, dedicated, bright display for adsb targets.
>
> PowerFLARM connected to a AirAvionic ATD is likely the best you will get there.
>
> No UAT In/TIS-B/ADS-R support, but them are the tradeoffs.

I have been flying with the Air-Avionis ATD for several years. It is the best and has many features.

http://www.craggyaero.com/air_traffic_display.htm

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[[email protected]]

On Monday, October 8, 2018 at 5:38:39 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> On Monday, October 8, 2018 at 5:14:16 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > On Monday, October 8, 2018 at 12:55:09 PM UTC-7, Ben Hirashima wrote:
> > > Have you seen an iPhone X display in sunlight? I find it perfectly readable. Technology is constantly improving...
> >
> > thank you Ben, I did look at an iphone X at max brightness, but didn't consider it any better than my iphone 8+. I do manage to use Foreflight on my iphone 8+, but it is a struggle, not what I call 'easily readable' in my cockpit, as my LX moving map is. I'm in Nevada, where the sun is very bright, even with a blue canopy. I want a panel mounted, dedicated, bright display for adsb targets.
>
> PowerFLARM connected to a AirAvionic ATD is likely the best you will get there.
>
> No UAT In/TIS-B/ADS-R support, but them are the tradeoffs.

Its enormously more expensive to buy the AirAvionic adsb/flarm receiver that works with their ATD57, so I won't be doing that. I suspect AirAvionic is not providing an adsb protocol is some business reason they have to support Flarm. In my opinion, in the US, Flarm is a harmful distraction of money better spent on adsb.

[Tom BravoMike]

The dedicated 7 inch iFLYGPS 740b might be a choice. Takes the ADS-B In information from all kinds of sources, including the Stratux or FlightBox. Sold for $499 by

http://www.mypilotstore.com/mypilotstore/sep/12644

Quote: "New in the iFLY 740b
Sunlight Readability. Sunny days are no issue with the iFLY 740b and the brighter 1100 Nit 7-inch Touchscreen. Perfect for those bright open cockpits."


I myself have decided to use the iFLYGPS software (which I'm subscribed to) on the Galaxy Note8, on sale these days for under $600, with the 6.3 inch screen and up to 1200 nits brightness. What I like about the iFLYGPS app is - among many other useful features - the satellite images of all the airfields, helping to locate them if you have to land out.

[Tango Eight]

On Monday, October 8, 2018 at 9:39:12 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> On Monday, October 8, 2018 at 5:38:39 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > On Monday, October 8, 2018 at 5:14:16 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > > On Monday, October 8, 2018 at 12:55:09 PM UTC-7, Ben Hirashima wrote:
> > > > Have you seen an iPhone X display in sunlight? I find it perfectly readable. Technology is constantly improving...
> > >
> > > thank you Ben, I did look at an iphone X at max brightness, but didn't consider it any better than my iphone 8+. I do manage to use Foreflight on my iphone 8+, but it is a struggle, not what I call 'easily readable' in my cockpit, as my LX moving map is. I'm in Nevada, where the sun is very bright, even with a blue canopy. I want a panel mounted, dedicated, bright display for adsb targets.
> >
> > PowerFLARM connected to a AirAvionic ATD is likely the best you will get there.
> >
> > No UAT In/TIS-B/ADS-R support, but them are the tradeoffs.
>
> Its enormously more expensive to buy the AirAvionic adsb/flarm receiver that works with their ATD57, so I won't be doing that. I suspect AirAvionic is not providing an adsb protocol is some business reason they have to support Flarm. In my opinion, in the US, Flarm is a harmful distraction of money better spent on adsb.

So what happens when 20 ADS-B equipped gliders share a thermal?

If the answer is "I don't care, because I don't fly in gaggles" then it would be helpful to know this so the rest of the community can give your opinion all the weight it deserves.

T8

[Ramy[_2_]]

Since you fly in Nevada the best thing to do is install powerflarm and connect to your LXNAV which will show you ADSB traffic as well. This is my setup and I see ADSB traffic all the time, in addition to glider traffic.

Ramy

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, October 9, 2018 at 10:59:07 AM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:
> Since you fly in Nevada the best thing to do is install powerflarm and connect to your LXNAV which will show you ADSB traffic as well. This is my setup and I see ADSB traffic all the time, in addition to glider traffic.
>
> Ramy

Towing behind Keith' ADS-B equipped Cessna this year I had this new and awful warning sound from my PFlarm that stopped after release. I'm still trying to configure my TT22 and TN72 combo for ADS-B out but I have the same concern as T8 expressed.
J7

[JS[_5_]]

On Tuesday, October 9, 2018 at 9:22:12 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 9, 2018 at 10:59:07 AM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:
> > Since you fly in Nevada the best thing to do is install powerflarm and connect to your LXNAV which will show you ADSB traffic as well. This is my setup and I see ADSB traffic all the time, in addition to glider traffic.
> >
> > Ramy
>
> Towing behind Keith' ADS-B equipped Cessna this year I had this new and awful warning sound from my PFlarm that stopped after release. I'm still trying to configure my TT22 and TN72 combo for ADS-B out but I have the same concern as T8 expressed.
> J7

The same for me behind the Pawnee at Jean.
Perhaps it makes you take lower tows... Could be a bonus!
We knew this was coming for years. ADS-B alerts are a proximity warning, not an intelligent system.
At least we can discontinue processing Mode C alerts.
Jim

[2KA]

If I understand things correctly, the Powerflarm/LXNAV solution isn't complete. You will see 1090ES ADS-B traffic (which includes aircraft like most airliners and others with Mode-S transponders and approved GPS sources), but you won't see UAT ADS-B traffic, which includes lots of GA folks.

So I think you still need proximity warnings, even after the mandate, if you intend to rely only on PowerFlarm.

Someone please correct if I'm wrong.

Lynn Alley
"2KA"

[[email protected]]

>
> So what happens when 20 ADS-B equipped gliders share a thermal?
>
> If the answer is "I don't care, because I don't fly in gaggles" then it would be helpful to know this so the rest of the community can give your opinion all the weight it deserves.
>
> T8



T8,

My answer would be the same if some, or even all of the gliders, had flarm: in a shared thermal, I hope all 20 glider pilots would have their attention out of the cockpit.

Both systems clearly have advantages, but it seems obvious to me that the future is with adsb, in the USA, and since both are expensive, it will be rare to buy both systems. Flarm's collision prediction is a help in thermals, but that assumes everyone has flarm, and there are no dead spots in antenna reception.

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, October 9, 2018 at 8:59:07 AM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
> Since you fly in Nevada the best thing to do is install powerflarm and connect to your LXNAV which will show you ADSB traffic as well. This is my setup and I see ADSB traffic all the time, in addition to glider traffic.
>
> Ramy

Ramy, thanks, I did consider that option, but my expectation was that a dedicated traffic display would be clearer, and important enough to justify another hole in the panel. Do you find that traffic stands out clearly on the LX map display, or is traffic lost in the screen clutter?

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, October 9, 2018 at 11:23:01 AM UTC-7, 2KA wrote:
> If I understand things correctly, the Powerflarm/LXNAV solution isn't complete. You will see 1090ES ADS-B traffic (which includes aircraft like most airliners and others with Mode-S transponders and approved GPS sources), but you won't see UAT ADS-B traffic, which includes lots of GA folks.
>
> So I think you still need proximity warnings, even after the mandate, if you intend to rely only on PowerFlarm.
>
> Someone please correct if I'm wrong.
>
> Lynn Alley
> "2KA"


If the concern is with power traffic (and it is), its important that the power traffic see the glider as well as vice versa, so a transponder is necessary in a glider.

[Ramy[_2_]]

On Tuesday, October 9, 2018 at 11:58:26 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 9, 2018 at 8:59:07 AM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
> > Since you fly in Nevada the best thing to do is install powerflarm and connect to your LXNAV which will show you ADSB traffic as well. This is my setup and I see ADSB traffic all the time, in addition to glider traffic.
> >
> > Ramy
>
> Ramy, thanks, I did consider that option, but my expectation was that a dedicated traffic display would be clearer, and important enough to justify another hole in the panel. Do you find that traffic stands out clearly on the LX map display, or is traffic lost in the screen clutter?

I find it clear enough in my LX9000, although you will need to adjust the zoom to see the traffic. A dedicated display is ideal, but so far I didnt feel it justifies another hole. Indeed Powerflarm is not complete, it does not detect UAT. But most of the traffic I am seeing has 1090, I think this is still the majority. And powerflarm will still give you mode C proximity warning for the rest of the traffic.
As for ADS-B warnings in gaggles, this is precisely why you may want powerflarm. When powerflarm detects both powerflarm and ADS-B it suppresses the ADS-B warning.

Regarding tow planes ADS-B warning, this is indeed a problem. Since they usually dont have powerflarm, you will get proximity warning through the tow. No solution for that other then lowering the volume or pressing the temporary dismiss button which is available in the LXNAV.

Ramy

[Darryl Ramm]

On Monday, October 8, 2018 at 6:39:12 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Monday, October 8, 2018 at 5:38:39 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > On Monday, October 8, 2018 at 5:14:16 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > > On Monday, October 8, 2018 at 12:55:09 PM UTC-7, Ben Hirashima wrote:
> > > > Have you seen an iPhone X display in sunlight? I find it perfectly readable. Technology is constantly improving...
> > >
> > > thank you Ben, I did look at an iphone X at max brightness, but didn't consider it any better than my iphone 8+. I do manage to use Foreflight on my iphone 8+, but it is a struggle, not what I call 'easily readable' in my cockpit, as my LX moving map is. I'm in Nevada, where the sun is very bright, even with a blue canopy. I want a panel mounted, dedicated, bright display for adsb targets.
> >
> > PowerFLARM connected to a AirAvionic ATD is likely the best you will get there.
> >
> > No UAT In/TIS-B/ADS-R support, but them are the tradeoffs.
>
> Its enormously more expensive to buy the AirAvionic adsb/flarm receiver that works with their ATD57, so I won't be doing that. I suspect AirAvionic is not providing an adsb protocol is some business reason they have to support Flarm. In my opinion, in the US, Flarm is a harmful distraction of money better spent on adsb.

I mentioned the PowerFLARM and AirAvionic ATD (ATD57) display. In the USA if you want to get a traffic display to a FLARM serial compatible display today that is how you do it. There is no AirAvionic FLARM device similar to PowerFLARM actually FCC approved for use in the USA and AirAvionic don't seem to care much about USA/FAA ADS-B requirements or FCC device approval so I'd not hold my breath there. The next FLARM device I expect to be FCC approved in the USA is the LXNav PowerMouse.

The PowerMouse uses a later generation FLARM ADS-B chipset than PowerFLARM and should support ADS-R and hopefully TIS-B. And hopefully LXNav will only sell the version with ADS-B (as well as FLARM() in the USA.

The choice is yours, if you want to use a FLARM display you need to drive that with a device that talks FLARM serial protocol, if you want to talk to a GDL compatible display you can use a suitable GDL compatible ADS-B source, But I don't undated why a glider flying in glider-busy Nevada would not want a FLARM system more so than ADS-B *In*. Transponder and ADS-B Out give you lots of protection to other aircraft as well.

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, October 9, 2018 at 3:48:04 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> On Monday, October 8, 2018 at 6:39:12 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > On Monday, October 8, 2018 at 5:38:39 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > > On Monday, October 8, 2018 at 5:14:16 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > > > On Monday, October 8, 2018 at 12:55:09 PM UTC-7, Ben Hirashima wrote:
> > > > > Have you seen an iPhone X display in sunlight? I find it perfectly readable. Technology is constantly improving...
> > > >
> > > > thank you Ben, I did look at an iphone X at max brightness, but didn't consider it any better than my iphone 8+. I do manage to use Foreflight on my iphone 8+, but it is a struggle, not what I call 'easily readable' in my cockpit, as my LX moving map is. I'm in Nevada, where the sun is very bright, even with a blue canopy. I want a panel mounted, dedicated, bright display for adsb targets.
> > >
> > > PowerFLARM connected to a AirAvionic ATD is likely the best you will get there.
> > >
> > > No UAT In/TIS-B/ADS-R support, but them are the tradeoffs.
> >
> > Its enormously more expensive to buy the AirAvionic adsb/flarm receiver that works with their ATD57, so I won't be doing that. I suspect AirAvionic is not providing an adsb protocol is some business reason they have to support Flarm. In my opinion, in the US, Flarm is a harmful distraction of money better spent on adsb.
>
> I mentioned the PowerFLARM and AirAvionic ATD (ATD57) display. In the USA if you want to get a traffic display to a FLARM serial compatible display today that is how you do it. There is no AirAvionic FLARM device similar to PowerFLARM actually FCC approved for use in the USA and AirAvionic don't seem to care much about USA/FAA ADS-B requirements or FCC device approval so I'd not hold my breath there. The next FLARM device I expect to be FCC approved in the USA is the LXNav PowerMouse.
>
> The PowerMouse uses a later generation FLARM ADS-B chipset than PowerFLARM and should support ADS-R and hopefully TIS-B. And hopefully LXNav will only sell the version with ADS-B (as well as FLARM() in the USA.
>
> The choice is yours, if you want to use a FLARM display you need to drive that with a device that talks FLARM serial protocol, if you want to talk to a GDL compatible display you can use a suitable GDL compatible ADS-B source, But I don't undated why a glider flying in glider-busy Nevada would not want a FLARM system more so than ADS-B *In*. Transponder and ADS-B Out give you lots of protection to other aircraft as well.


Hi Daryl, thanks for your comments as usual. I'd have both systems (Flarm and adsb) in my glider if money and battery power and panel area were free. But having invested in a Trig 22 (which I felt was essential, much more than flarm, when moving to Minden) and recently having added adsb-out, I feel my best course forward is to get adsb-in. Adsb recieivers are cheap, but nice displays like ATD57 won't work with them, they only accept proprietary flarm protocol. I wonder why, it seems against market wishes. I personally feel that Flarm was a great early solution, but will soon be wasted money in the USA. In fact its even harmful, in syphoning money better spend on adsb.. I think flarm's promise of 'safe gaggling' is not realistic now, if it ever was, since not all gliders do or will have flarm in the US.

[Dan Marotta]

Hmmmmmm...Â* A possibility might be a daylight readable Android device
running XCSoar and kept zoomed in to about 10 miles or even something
less.Â* Also turn off the terrain so that you just have a plain white
screen.Â* You could also use a null turn point file and turn off all or
most of the other stuff so that you just have the white screen
displaying ADS-B and Flarm targets.

The device could be strapped to your leg or mounted to a stand off
attached to the side of your panel.

In my Stemme, I have a ClearNav II system on the left side, but I also
have a Dell Streak 5 on the right side running XCSoar.Â* It provides good
target information based upon the serial stream from the PowerFlarm.

On 10/9/2018 6:14 PM, wrote:
>
> Hi Daryl, thanks for your comments as usual. I'd have both systems (Flarm and adsb) in my glider if money and battery power and panel area were free. But having invested in a Trig 22 (which I felt was essential, much more than flarm, when moving to Minden) and recently having added adsb-out, I feel my best course forward is to get adsb-in. Adsb recieivers are cheap, but nice displays like ATD57 won't work with them, they only accept proprietary flarm protocol. I wonder why, it seems against market wishes. I personally feel that Flarm was a great early solution, but will soon be wasted money in the USA. In fact its even harmful, in syphoning money better spend on adsb. I think flarm's promise of 'safe gaggling' is not realistic now, if it ever was, since not all gliders do or will have flarm in the US.
>

--
Dan, 5J

[2G]

On Tuesday, October 9, 2018 at 9:22:12 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 9, 2018 at 10:59:07 AM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:
> > Since you fly in Nevada the best thing to do is install powerflarm and connect to your LXNAV which will show you ADSB traffic as well. This is my setup and I see ADSB traffic all the time, in addition to glider traffic.
> >
> > Ramy
>
> Towing behind Keith' ADS-B equipped Cessna this year I had this new and awful warning sound from my PFlarm that stopped after release. I'm still trying to configure my TT22 and TN72 combo for ADS-B out but I have the same concern as T8 expressed.
> J7

Herb,

Get (treat) yourself a motorglider and you won't get those annoying alarms.

Tom

[Darryl Ramm]

Dan

He is after a GDL-90 protocol ADS-B traffic display. You and Ramy can keep recommending FLARM compatible FLARM-serial protocol displays until the cows come come, but unless he wants to buy a PowerFLARM or PowerMouse that's not going to help him. XCSoar receives FLARM serial protocol traffic, not GDL-90. It could if somebody wanted to write the code...


On Tuesday, October 9, 2018 at 5:39:37 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Hmmmmmm...Â* A possibility might be a daylight readable Android device
> running XCSoar and kept zoomed in to about 10 miles or even something
> less.Â* Also turn off the terrain so that you just have a plain white
> screen.Â* You could also use a null turn point file and turn off all or
> most of the other stuff so that you just have the white screen
> displaying ADS-B and Flarm targets.
>
> The device could be strapped to your leg or mounted to a stand off
> attached to the side of your panel.
>
> In my Stemme, I have a ClearNav II system on the left side, but I also
> have a Dell Streak 5 on the right side running XCSoar.Â* It provides good
> target information based upon the serial stream from the PowerFlarm.
>
> On 10/9/2018 6:14 PM, wrote:
> >
> > Hi Daryl, thanks for your comments as usual. I'd have both systems (Flarm and adsb) in my glider if money and battery power and panel area were free. But having invested in a Trig 22 (which I felt was essential, much more than flarm, when moving to Minden) and recently having added adsb-out, I feel my best course forward is to get adsb-in. Adsb recieivers are cheap, but nice displays like ATD57 won't work with them, they only accept proprietary flarm protocol. I wonder why, it seems against market wishes. I personally feel that Flarm was a great early solution, but will soon be wasted money in the USA. In fact its even harmful, in syphoning money better spend on adsb. I think flarm's promise of 'safe gaggling' is not realistic now, if it ever was, since not all gliders do or will have flarm in the US.
> >
>
> --
> Dan, 5J

[[email protected]]

Regarding the comment about "Flarms promise of safe haggling", right from the very start of Swiss Flarm in Europe, Flarm emphasised that "See and Avoid" was more effective than Flarm in a thermal gaggle. The objective of Flarm warnings between gliders is to alert us to the possibility of conflicts with gliders the presence of which we might not have been aware of - rather than to micro-manage flight safety in a dense gaggle of gliders in a thermal who damn well out to know the others are there.

With the US getting Power Flarm and never original Flarm it seems that a lot of pilots immediately picked up on the Power side of Power Flarm and saw it as a competitor to GA/CA ADSB rather than fully appreciating benefits and design limitations of the Flarm side.

Not against ADSB but it is not for the foreseeable future an alternative to the Flarm aspect of PF for gliders. I too am trying to figure out the best and most space efficient way to get an LX 9000 PowerFlarm + transponder + radio + ADSB + displays into a panel. I think the Air Avionic ATD 57 controller display has to be part of the solution to save panel holes.

[Ramy[_2_]]

You do realize that almost every glider flying around Minden has Flarm, so your highest risk in Minden area is glider midair. We not talking gaggles here, we talking about one of the most condensed glider traffic in the US with 3 active gliderport. Your priority is wrong, powerflarm should be your next priority after transponder.
While it is true that your ADSB will warm other powerflarm equipped gliders, such as myself, I believe you will cause constant alarm to all your buddies in thermals since you don’t have powerflarm. If this will be the case, soon you will find yourself lonely in the sky...

Ramy

[Alastair Lyas[_2_]]

Might be worth waiting for products combining both ADSB and
Flarm?

https://uavionix.com/news/uavionix-and-flarm-collaborate-to-
create-electronic-conspicuity-solutions-for-manned-and-unmanned-
aircraft/

https://uavionix.com/products/skyecho/ (Scroll down to see
FLARMbridge)

My LX9070PF has powerflarm fitted (and is software configurable to
work in US/EU). It is already possible to buy a version with ADSB
receiver. Hoping it is only time before it is possible to buy one with a
transceiver)



At 03:49 11 October 2018, Ramy wrote:
>You do realize that almost every glider flying around Minden has
Flarm, so
>=
>your highest risk in Minden area is glider midair. We not talking
gaggles
>h=
>ere, we talking about one of the most condensed glider traffic in
the US
>wi=
>th 3 active gliderport. Your priority is wrong, powerflarm should be
your
>n=
>ext priority after transponder.=20
>While it is true that your ADSB will warm other powerflarm
equipped
>gliders=
>, such as myself, I believe you will cause constant alarm to all your
>buddi=
>es in thermals since you don=E2=80=99t have powerflarm. If this
will be
>the=
> case, soon you will find yourself lonely in the sky...
>
>Ramy
>

[Mike Schumann[_2_]]

On Wednesday, October 10, 2018 at 10:49:56 PM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:
> You do realize that almost every glider flying around Minden has Flarm, so your highest risk in Minden area is glider midair. We not talking gaggles here, we talking about one of the most condensed glider traffic in the US with 3 active gliderport. Your priority is wrong, powerflarm should be your next priority after transponder.
> While it is true that your ADSB will warm other powerflarm equipped gliders, such as myself, I believe you will cause constant alarm to all your buddies in thermals since you don’t have powerflarm. If this will be the case, soon you will find yourself lonely in the sky...
>
> Ramy

According to Airnav there are a total of 353 aircraft based at Minden. 101 of these are gliders. There's a lot of GA traffic there, not just gliders.. PowerFlarm, given its half baked implementation, is not the panacea. ADS-B is the future in the US. The FLARM guys need to get their **** together and conform to the realities of the US environment.

[JS[_5_]]

On Thursday, October 11, 2018 at 3:22:38 AM UTC-7, Mike Schumann wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 10, 2018 at 10:49:56 PM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:
> > You do realize that almost every glider flying around Minden has Flarm, so your highest risk in Minden area is glider midair. We not talking gaggles here, we talking about one of the most condensed glider traffic in the US with 3 active gliderport. Your priority is wrong, powerflarm should be your next priority after transponder.
> > While it is true that your ADSB will warm other powerflarm equipped gliders, such as myself, I believe you will cause constant alarm to all your buddies in thermals since you don’t have powerflarm. If this will be the case, soon you will find yourself lonely in the sky...
> >
> > Ramy
>
> According to Airnav there are a total of 353 aircraft based at Minden. 101 of these are gliders. There's a lot of GA traffic there, not just gliders. PowerFlarm, given its half baked implementation, is not the panacea. ADS-B is the future in the US. The FLARM guys need to get their **** together and conform to the realities of the US environment.

Here we go again.
Jim

[Tom BravoMike]

On Wednesday, October 10, 2018 at 10:49:56 PM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:
> You do realize that almost every glider flying around Minden has Flarm, so your highest risk in Minden area is glider midair.(snip)> Ramy

If those over 100 gliders around Minden don't have a transponder (because they gave a priority to the PowerFlarm), they are a threat to the GA in the area, and anywhere else. If they do have transponders, they will be seen on ADSB (and PF)devices.


What I resist and can't agree with is that PowerFlarm supporters expect that gliders, with their very limited panels space and electrical energy supply, be equipped with BOTH a transponder AND the Flarm. Telling us that if you can't afford both, PowerFlarm should be your first choice, contradicts my experience. And yes, I have flown at Minden (got my Gold there, missed Diamond by 210 meters), and at Seminole, and from Tom Knauff's Ridge Gliderport, and in California and in Michigan. It was in Julian, PA, that an airliner approaching State College called on the radio asking if there were gliders over the ridge. Had I had a transponder, he would have seen me without asking. The PowerFlarm alone wouldn't have helped. Yes, what we need is a device combining both, ideally… and in the meantime - wait, there no meantime, get the ADS-B now!

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, October 11, 2018 at 8:46:16 AM UTC-7, Tom BravoMike wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 10, 2018 at 10:49:56 PM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:
> > You do realize that almost every glider flying around Minden has Flarm, so your highest risk in Minden area is glider midair.(snip)> Ramy
>
> If those over 100 gliders around Minden don't have a transponder (because they gave a priority to the PowerFlarm), they are a threat to the GA in the area, and anywhere else. If they do have transponders, they will be seen on ADSB (and PF)devices.
>
>
> What I resist and can't agree with is that PowerFlarm supporters expect that gliders, with their very limited panels space and electrical energy supply, be equipped with BOTH a transponder AND the Flarm. . Yes, what we need is a device combining both, ideally… and in the meantime - wait, there no meantime, get the ADS-B now!

I'm not sure I understand your point.

Depending on where you fly (lots of power traffic or lots of glider traffic) the first priority ought to be a Mode-S transponder or a PowerFLARM (respectively) and the second priority ought to be the other one. ADS-B Out comes third and ADS-B In (other than the ADS-B In found in PowerFLARM comes last.

[Tom BravoMike]

> Depending on where you fly (lots of power traffic or lots of glider traffic) the first priority ought to be a Mode-S transponder or a PowerFLARM (respectively) and the second priority ought to be the other one. ADS-B Out comes third and ADS-B In (other than the ADS-B In found in PowerFLARM comes last. (…)

"Depending on where you fly"... Quite a number of us, glider pilots, don't fly in just one area - and that includes myself. For the last few years I managed to take my glider from Mid-West to Seminole for the winter season. The GA traffic along the edge of the Orlando Class B is immense, and by its nature the Florida peninsula is a 'corridor' used by the military and all kinds of GA aircraft. So Mode-S transponder capable of adding ADS-B should be - IMHO - the first choice if you add new safety equipment. And the ADS-B In receiver should not be even mentioned as an alternative choice because with its low price these days - under a $100 -it should be an early add-on in any combination. And only after that would PowerFlarm be a hesitant consideration to me, because of the expense, and space, and power draining and.... yes, antennas, cables, GPS receivers (distance!), software updates, poor range complaints etc.

[Darryl Ramm]

On Thursday, October 11, 2018 at 2:30:05 AM UTC-7, Alastair Lyas wrote:
> Might be worth waiting for products combining both ADSB and
> Flarm?

The uAvionix SkyEcho 2 is innovative in ways, but to me it has lots of limitations and is just not that interesting for the USA glider market at least, which is why I've not mentioned it before on r.a.s. But here goes...

I always expect there is interesting stuff coming, but folks do need to be a little careful what they might decide to wait for. Well over a decade ago some folks in the Minden area were waiting for mythical UAT devices that never happened, lots of handwaving not grounded in reality, and in some cases owners unfortunately were putting off transponder adoption because of that. Let's not repeat anything like that again. And for the SkyEcho 2 we don't need to wait to actually look at what this device does or does not do since documentation has been available for a while. And much of my comments below come from just reading that documentation... but OK, with a pretty good understanding of the underlying technology.

The SkyEcho 2 does not include a FLARM transceiver, so in the USA today you would be adding a PowerFLARM to it via the FLARMBridge option to get FLARM capability. That immediately makes it uninteresting to lots of glider owners. According to the documentation the combined devices do *not* take ADS-B traffic and output that on a FLARM serial protocol link so the usual traffic displays used in a glider can see them... it seems to only works the other way and takes FLARM traffic and adds it to what is being sent over GLD-90 protocol to GA EFBs etc. The reverse of what most glider pilots want in a cockpit (and what PowerFLARM does today for 1090ES Direct traffic). And I'll bet it converts PowerFLARMs more useful traffic warnings say when thermalling with other gliders into ADS-B warnings going off all the time nonsense. And given how the FLARM ICD (serial protocol) and GLD-90 works I doubt there is any sane way not to have to do that. But OK, it is what it is, and very clearly this product is *not* aimed at gliders.

I'm not sure uAvionix have promised USA FCC approval for that device yet. I expect they are likely to. It's not FCC approved today so can't even be advertised in the USA... which may well be why there is nothing mentioned on their USA website or why they don't want to irritate the FCC by even talking about it. Having been to the FCC approval mosh pit (I was going to call it a dance :-)) several times before uAvionix should know very well what they are doing with FCC approval.

Their launch for the product was very UK centric, which was pretty interesting given how far behind overall ADS-B adoption is in Europe vs. the USA, they seem to be hoping to move that needle, ride on UK interest in TABS and FIS-B trials and combining some FLARM capability. So quite a intersting kitchen sink of a product for those uses and very interesting that uAvionix are so growth oriented they are lookin at trying to seed that market.

So then you want to ask if you need an actual PowerFLARM device to connect to the SkyEcho 2 to do FLARM then what else does the SkyEcho 2 provide, and importantly is it a replacement for a transponder?

Importantly the SkyEcho 2 *not* a full transponder but does implement TABS/TSO-C199 so should provide compatibility with TCAS which is obviously important. I'd love to see one working. ATC will likely not see that device however and that's going to be an issue in many places near busy ATC areas. ATC *does* sees Trig transponders running as TABS devices, as they are full transponders underneath the TABS 1090ES Out part. The ATC visibility part is a large concern for me, especially around places like the Minden area which this thread started with. Without ATC visibility I would not recommend that device for use in that area. I'd love to eventually get my hands on one to confirm and to talk about it with the friendly NOCAL TRACON tech folks who cover the Reno area.

You also can't install this (or any other TABS) device in an aircraft with an existing Mode C or Mode S transponder.... so can't get visibility to ATC that way. I can't imagine any glider owner with a transponder in their glider who would want to pull it out and replace it with a SkyEcho 2 if that meant losing visibility to ATC... a large part of why they installed the transponder to start with.

The SkyEcho 2 also won't meet FAA 2020 ADS-B Out requirements, and although gliders are partially exempt, we still have folks who want to say overfly Class C airspace (but below 10,000').

It's a little confusing in some many ways the SkyEcho seems more targeted at UAVs (or maybe ultralights) but things like UAT In/FIS-B is more a GA feature, so it sure is an intersting product to follow for geeks like me, but kind of wedged into a space between others products, especially with full Mode S/1090ES Out transponders on one side. We'll see....

Other products with combined ADS-B and FLARM capabilities...

PowerFLARM today does 1090ES In (Direct only, no ADS-R and TIS-B) and FLARM.. (effectively all PowerFLARM sold in the USA have the 1090ES In option).

LXNav PowerMouse is coming, apparently undergoing FCC approval, with its ADS-B In option it does 1090ES In (but unlike PowerFLARM it *does* ADS-R and hopefully TIS-B) and FLARM. (hopefully LXNav will be smart here and the PowerMouse sold in the USA will all have 1090ES In option).

Other vendors like AirAvionic have new FLARM products with 1090ES In capabilities coming, I wish they would start describing those product specs and capabilities more clearly and ideally clarifying their plans for the USA market. (their ATD57 display is still great however if anybody wants a dedicated FLARM display).

---

Alastair I assume you are in the UK? or elsewhere in Europe. I'm you not sure why you care about FLARM and the USA with a LXNav 9070, but if you really want to operate in the USA hopefully you have a standard PowerFLARM external box (i.e. a model with FCC approval) connected to the 9070.

[Darryl Ramm]

On Thursday, October 11, 2018 at 12:29:57 PM UTC-7, Tom BravoMike wrote:
> > Depending on where you fly (lots of power traffic or lots of glider traffic) the first priority ought to be a Mode-S transponder or a PowerFLARM (respectively) and the second priority ought to be the other one. ADS-B Out comes third and ADS-B In (other than the ADS-B In found in PowerFLARM comes last. (…)
>
> "Depending on where you fly"... Quite a number of us, glider pilots, don't fly in just one area - and that includes myself. For the last few years I managed to take my glider from Mid-West to Seminole for the winter season. The GA traffic along the edge of the Orlando Class B is immense, and by its nature the Florida peninsula is a 'corridor' used by the military and all kinds of GA aircraft. So Mode-S transponder capable of adding ADS-B should be - IMHO - the first choice if you add new safety equipment. And the ADS-B In receiver should not be even mentioned as an alternative choice because with its low price these days - under a $100 -it should be an early add-on in any combination. And only after that would PowerFlarm be a hesitant consideration to me, because of the expense, and space, and power draining and.... yes, antennas, cables, GPS receivers (distance!), software updates, poor range complaints etc.

I'm not sure who you are trying to address here, I expect most glider pilots who fly in the Minden area realize they should be equipped with a Transponder and PowerFLARM. Needs/justifications in other places with be different.. Maybe I'm badly skewed to high-end gliders and pilots but I most of the XC pilots I know who fly in the area have both.

---

It would be great if you could explained exactly what you have equipped your glider with and how well that works in busy thermals. The ADS-B In system cost you how much? Including display? EFB/flight software? I doubt it was less than $100. What is the total power draw of all that equipment? Are you receiving ADS-R and TIS-B? With other gliders equipped with a range of traffic technology? How did it work in those cases? What about TIS-B issues with transponder equipped other gliders? You running 2020 complaint or TABS or ...?

ADS-B In receivers I have experience with (like Stratux driving ForeFlight), turn into a useless mess in a thermal of other gliders. More distracting than helpful like FLARM. It's one thing to suggesting people add technology, but if if that technology can distracts more than it helps at critical times then it's a problem. Of course if you usually don't fly with with other gliders, then meh, who cares, but that is far from usual for most folks here. The issue with GA oriented ADS-B in systems being less than useless in thermals, and not working at all with standard glider traffic displays sure makes those GA oriented ADS-B In systems not the automatic second choice behind transponders for many of us, at any cost point.... even if the cost was *free*, they are not free of issues. I actually see more, but still low, interest now at least out West with a few glider pilots wanting UAT-In to get FIS-B/WX/TFR data than wanting ADS-B In (beyond PowerFLARM) for traffic data.

And Ramy who you seem to be trying to argue with... his ASG-29,.... yep just a Trig TT21, TN71 for TABS ADS-B Out, and PowerFLARM with 1090ES in. One of the first gliders on the west coast to have any ADS-B Out installed. But he's slacking with only a TT21/TABS, hopefully he will upgrade to a TT22 and 2020 Complaint ADS-B Out In his new AS33.

[Darryl Ramm]

Grrr GDL-90 not GLD-90. Autocorrect seems to be dyslexic.

On Thursday, October 11, 2018 at 2:47:12 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> On Thursday, October 11, 2018 at 2:30:05 AM UTC-7, Alastair Lyas wrote:
> > Might be worth waiting for products combining both ADSB and
> > Flarm?
>
> The uAvionix SkyEcho 2 is innovative in ways, but to me it has lots of limitations and is just not that interesting for the USA glider market at least, which is why I've not mentioned it before on r.a.s. But here goes...
>
> I always expect there is interesting stuff coming, but folks do need to be a little careful what they might decide to wait for. Well over a decade ago some folks in the Minden area were waiting for mythical UAT devices that never happened, lots of handwaving not grounded in reality, and in some cases owners unfortunately were putting off transponder adoption because of that. Let's not repeat anything like that again. And for the SkyEcho 2 we don't need to wait to actually look at what this device does or does not do since documentation has been available for a while. And much of my comments below come from just reading that documentation... but OK, with a pretty good understanding of the underlying technology.
>
> The SkyEcho 2 does not include a FLARM transceiver, so in the USA today you would be adding a PowerFLARM to it via the FLARMBridge option to get FLARM capability. That immediately makes it uninteresting to lots of glider owners. According to the documentation the combined devices do *not* take ADS-B traffic and output that on a FLARM serial protocol link so the usual traffic displays used in a glider can see them... it seems to only works the other way and takes FLARM traffic and adds it to what is being sent over GLD-90 protocol to GA EFBs etc. The reverse of what most glider pilots want in a cockpit (and what PowerFLARM does today for 1090ES Direct traffic). And I'll bet it converts PowerFLARMs more useful traffic warnings say when thermalling with other gliders into ADS-B warnings going off all the time nonsense. And given how the FLARM ICD (serial protocol) and GLD-90 works I doubt there is any sane way not to have to do that. But OK, it is what it is, and very clearly this product is *not* aimed at gliders.
>
> I'm not sure uAvionix have promised USA FCC approval for that device yet. I expect they are likely to. It's not FCC approved today so can't even be advertised in the USA... which may well be why there is nothing mentioned on their USA website or why they don't want to irritate the FCC by even talking about it. Having been to the FCC approval mosh pit (I was going to call it a dance :-)) several times before uAvionix should know very well what they are doing with FCC approval.
>
> Their launch for the product was very UK centric, which was pretty interesting given how far behind overall ADS-B adoption is in Europe vs. the USA, they seem to be hoping to move that needle, ride on UK interest in TABS and FIS-B trials and combining some FLARM capability. So quite a intersting kitchen sink of a product for those uses and very interesting that uAvionix are so growth oriented they are lookin at trying to seed that market.
>
> So then you want to ask if you need an actual PowerFLARM device to connect to the SkyEcho 2 to do FLARM then what else does the SkyEcho 2 provide, and importantly is it a replacement for a transponder?
>
> Importantly the SkyEcho 2 *not* a full transponder but does implement TABS/TSO-C199 so should provide compatibility with TCAS which is obviously important. I'd love to see one working. ATC will likely not see that device however and that's going to be an issue in many places near busy ATC areas. ATC *does* sees Trig transponders running as TABS devices, as they are full transponders underneath the TABS 1090ES Out part. The ATC visibility part is a large concern for me, especially around places like the Minden area which this thread started with. Without ATC visibility I would not recommend that device for use in that area. I'd love to eventually get my hands on one to confirm and to talk about it with the friendly NOCAL TRACON tech folks who cover the Reno area.
>
> You also can't install this (or any other TABS) device in an aircraft with an existing Mode C or Mode S transponder.... so can't get visibility to ATC that way. I can't imagine any glider owner with a transponder in their glider who would want to pull it out and replace it with a SkyEcho 2 if that meant losing visibility to ATC... a large part of why they installed the transponder to start with.
>
> The SkyEcho 2 also won't meet FAA 2020 ADS-B Out requirements, and although gliders are partially exempt, we still have folks who want to say overfly Class C airspace (but below 10,000').
>
> It's a little confusing in some many ways the SkyEcho seems more targeted at UAVs (or maybe ultralights) but things like UAT In/FIS-B is more a GA feature, so it sure is an intersting product to follow for geeks like me, but kind of wedged into a space between others products, especially with full Mode S/1090ES Out transponders on one side. We'll see....
>
> Other products with combined ADS-B and FLARM capabilities...
>
> PowerFLARM today does 1090ES In (Direct only, no ADS-R and TIS-B) and FLARM. (effectively all PowerFLARM sold in the USA have the 1090ES In option).
>
> LXNav PowerMouse is coming, apparently undergoing FCC approval, with its ADS-B In option it does 1090ES In (but unlike PowerFLARM it *does* ADS-R and hopefully TIS-B) and FLARM. (hopefully LXNav will be smart here and the PowerMouse sold in the USA will all have 1090ES In option).
>
> Other vendors like AirAvionic have new FLARM products with 1090ES In capabilities coming, I wish they would start describing those product specs and capabilities more clearly and ideally clarifying their plans for the USA market. (their ATD57 display is still great however if anybody wants a dedicated FLARM display).
>
> ---
>
> Alastair I assume you are in the UK? or elsewhere in Europe. I'm you not sure why you care about FLARM and the USA with a LXNav 9070, but if you really want to operate in the USA hopefully you have a standard PowerFLARM external box (i.e. a model with FCC approval) connected to the 9070.

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Thursday, October 11, 2018 at 2:47:12 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> On Thursday, October 11, 2018 at 2:30:05 AM UTC-7, Alastair Lyas wrote:
> > Might be worth waiting for products combining both ADSB and
> > Flarm?
>
> The uAvionix SkyEcho 2 is innovative in ways, but to me it has lots of limitations and is just not that interesting for the USA glider market at least, which is why I've not mentioned it before on r.a.s. But here goes...
>
> I always expect there is interesting stuff coming, but folks do need to be a little careful what they might decide to wait for. Well over a decade ago some folks in the Minden area were waiting for mythical UAT devices that never happened, lots of handwaving not grounded in reality, and in some cases owners unfortunately were putting off transponder adoption because of that. Let's not repeat anything like that again. And for the SkyEcho 2 we don't need to wait to actually look at what this device does or does not do since documentation has been available for a while. And much of my comments below come from just reading that documentation... but OK, with a pretty good understanding of the underlying technology.
>
> The SkyEcho 2 does not include a FLARM transceiver, so in the USA today you would be adding a PowerFLARM to it via the FLARMBridge option to get FLARM capability. That immediately makes it uninteresting to lots of glider owners. According to the documentation the combined devices do *not* take ADS-B traffic and output that on a FLARM serial protocol link so the usual traffic displays used in a glider can see them... it seems to only works the other way and takes FLARM traffic and adds it to what is being sent over GLD-90 protocol to GA EFBs etc. The reverse of what most glider pilots want in a cockpit (and what PowerFLARM does today for 1090ES Direct traffic). And I'll bet it converts PowerFLARMs more useful traffic warnings say when thermalling with other gliders into ADS-B warnings going off all the time nonsense. And given how the FLARM ICD (serial protocol) and GLD-90 works I doubt there is any sane way not to have to do that. But OK, it is what it is, and very clearly this product is *not* aimed at gliders.
>
> I'm not sure uAvionix have promised USA FCC approval for that device yet. I expect they are likely to. It's not FCC approved today so can't even be advertised in the USA... which may well be why there is nothing mentioned on their USA website or why they don't want to irritate the FCC by even talking about it. Having been to the FCC approval mosh pit (I was going to call it a dance :-)) several times before uAvionix should know very well what they are doing with FCC approval.
>
> Their launch for the product was very UK centric, which was pretty interesting given how far behind overall ADS-B adoption is in Europe vs. the USA, they seem to be hoping to move that needle, ride on UK interest in TABS and FIS-B trials and combining some FLARM capability. So quite a intersting kitchen sink of a product for those uses and very interesting that uAvionix are so growth oriented they are lookin at trying to seed that market.
>
> So then you want to ask if you need an actual PowerFLARM device to connect to the SkyEcho 2 to do FLARM then what else does the SkyEcho 2 provide, and importantly is it a replacement for a transponder?
>
> Importantly the SkyEcho 2 *not* a full transponder but does implement TABS/TSO-C199 so should provide compatibility with TCAS which is obviously important. I'd love to see one working. ATC will likely not see that device however and that's going to be an issue in many places near busy ATC areas. ATC *does* sees Trig transponders running as TABS devices, as they are full transponders underneath the TABS 1090ES Out part. The ATC visibility part is a large concern for me, especially around places like the Minden area which this thread started with. Without ATC visibility I would not recommend that device for use in that area. I'd love to eventually get my hands on one to confirm and to talk about it with the friendly NOCAL TRACON tech folks who cover the Reno area.
>
> You also can't install this (or any other TABS) device in an aircraft with an existing Mode C or Mode S transponder.... so can't get visibility to ATC that way. I can't imagine any glider owner with a transponder in their glider who would want to pull it out and replace it with a SkyEcho 2 if that meant losing visibility to ATC... a large part of why they installed the transponder to start with.
>
> The SkyEcho 2 also won't meet FAA 2020 ADS-B Out requirements, and although gliders are partially exempt, we still have folks who want to say overfly Class C airspace (but below 10,000').
>
> It's a little confusing in some many ways the SkyEcho seems more targeted at UAVs (or maybe ultralights) but things like UAT In/FIS-B is more a GA feature, so it sure is an intersting product to follow for geeks like me, but kind of wedged into a space between others products, especially with full Mode S/1090ES Out transponders on one side. We'll see....
>
> Other products with combined ADS-B and FLARM capabilities...
>
> PowerFLARM today does 1090ES In (Direct only, no ADS-R and TIS-B) and FLARM. (effectively all PowerFLARM sold in the USA have the 1090ES In option).
>
> LXNav PowerMouse is coming, apparently undergoing FCC approval, with its ADS-B In option it does 1090ES In (but unlike PowerFLARM it *does* ADS-R and hopefully TIS-B) and FLARM. (hopefully LXNav will be smart here and the PowerMouse sold in the USA will all have 1090ES In option).
>
> Other vendors like AirAvionic have new FLARM products with 1090ES In capabilities coming, I wish they would start describing those product specs and capabilities more clearly and ideally clarifying their plans for the USA market. (their ATD57 display is still great however if anybody wants a dedicated FLARM display).
>
> ---
>
> Alastair I assume you are in the UK? or elsewhere in Europe. I'm you not sure why you care about FLARM and the USA with a LXNav 9070, but if you really want to operate in the USA hopefully you have a standard PowerFLARM external box (i.e. a model with FCC approval) connected to the 9070.

You are a stud!

J

[Ramy[_2_]]

On Thursday, October 11, 2018 at 3:55:03 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> On Thursday, October 11, 2018 at 12:29:57 PM UTC-7, Tom BravoMike wrote:
> > > Depending on where you fly (lots of power traffic or lots of glider traffic) the first priority ought to be a Mode-S transponder or a PowerFLARM (respectively) and the second priority ought to be the other one. ADS-B Out comes third and ADS-B In (other than the ADS-B In found in PowerFLARM comes last. (…)
> >
> > "Depending on where you fly"... Quite a number of us, glider pilots, don't fly in just one area - and that includes myself. For the last few years I managed to take my glider from Mid-West to Seminole for the winter season. The GA traffic along the edge of the Orlando Class B is immense, and by its nature the Florida peninsula is a 'corridor' used by the military and all kinds of GA aircraft. So Mode-S transponder capable of adding ADS-B should be - IMHO - the first choice if you add new safety equipment. And the ADS-B In receiver should not be even mentioned as an alternative choice because with its low price these days - under a $100 -it should be an early add-on in any combination. And only after that would PowerFlarm be a hesitant consideration to me, because of the expense, and space, and power draining and... yes, antennas, cables, GPS receivers (distance!), software updates, poor range complaints etc.
>
> I'm not sure who you are trying to address here, I expect most glider pilots who fly in the Minden area realize they should be equipped with a Transponder and PowerFLARM. Needs/justifications in other places with be different. Maybe I'm badly skewed to high-end gliders and pilots but I most of the XC pilots I know who fly in the area have both.
>
> ---
>
> It would be great if you could explained exactly what you have equipped your glider with and how well that works in busy thermals. The ADS-B In system cost you how much? Including display? EFB/flight software? I doubt it was less than $100. What is the total power draw of all that equipment? Are you receiving ADS-R and TIS-B? With other gliders equipped with a range of traffic technology? How did it work in those cases? What about TIS-B issues with transponder equipped other gliders? You running 2020 complaint or TABS or ...?
>
> ADS-B In receivers I have experience with (like Stratux driving ForeFlight), turn into a useless mess in a thermal of other gliders. More distracting than helpful like FLARM. It's one thing to suggesting people add technology, but if if that technology can distracts more than it helps at critical times then it's a problem. Of course if you usually don't fly with with other gliders, then meh, who cares, but that is far from usual for most folks here. The issue with GA oriented ADS-B in systems being less than useless in thermals, and not working at all with standard glider traffic displays sure makes those GA oriented ADS-B In systems not the automatic second choice behind transponders for many of us, at any cost point.... even if the cost was *free*, they are not free of issues. I actually see more, but still low, interest now at least out West with a few glider pilots wanting UAT-In to get FIS-B/WX/TFR data than wanting ADS-B In (beyond PowerFLARM) for traffic data.
>
> And Ramy who you seem to be trying to argue with... his ASG-29,.... yep just a Trig TT21, TN71 for TABS ADS-B Out, and PowerFLARM with 1090ES in. One of the first gliders on the west coast to have any ADS-B Out installed. But he's slacking with only a TT21/TABS, hopefully he will upgrade to a TT22 and 2020 Complaint ADS-B Out In his new AS33.

And to add to what Darryl said, I was pretty sure I wrote that transponder should be the first priority and indeed I said "powerflarm should be your next priority after transponder."
Powerflarm core does not require panel space. You can integrate with many flight computers (not XCSoar which has very limited powerflarm support) or a butterfly display which you can stick just about anywhere.

Ramy

[Alastair Lyas[_2_]]

Is RAS for the US only? Are you going to build a (fire)wall?


At 21:47 11 October 2018, Darryl Ramm wrote:
>On Thursday, October 11, 2018 at 2:30:05 AM UTC-7, Alastair
Lyas wrote:
>> Might be worth waiting for products combining both ADSB
and=20
>> Flarm?
>
>The uAvionix SkyEcho 2 is innovative in ways, but to me it has lots
of
>limi=
>tations and is just not that interesting for the USA glider market at
>least=
>, which is why I've not mentioned it before on r.a.s. But here
goes...
>
>I always expect there is interesting stuff coming, but folks do
need to
>be=
> a little careful what they might decide to wait for. Well over a
decade
>ag=
>o some folks in the Minden area were waiting for mythical UAT
devices that
>=
>never happened, lots of handwaving not grounded in reality, and in
some
>cas=
>es owners unfortunately were putting off transponder adoption
because of
>th=
>at. Let's not repeat anything like that again. And for the SkyEcho 2
we
>don=
>'t need to wait to actually look at what this device does or does not
do
>si=
>nce documentation has been available for a while. And much of my
comments
>b=
>elow come from just reading that documentation... but OK, with a
pretty
>goo=
>d understanding of the underlying technology.
>
>The SkyEcho 2 does not include a FLARM transceiver, so in the
USA today
>you=
> would be adding a PowerFLARM to it via the FLARMBridge option
to get
>FLARM=
> capability. That immediately makes it uninteresting to lots of
glider
>owne=
>rs. According to the documentation the combined devices do *not*
take
>ADS-B=
> traffic and output that on a FLARM serial protocol link so the usual
>traff=
>ic displays used in a glider can see them... it seems to only works
the
>oth=
>er way and takes FLARM traffic and adds it to what is being sent
over
>GLD-9=
>0 protocol to GA EFBs etc. The reverse of what most glider pilots
want in
>a=
> cockpit (and what PowerFLARM does today for 1090ES Direct
traffic). And
>I'=
>ll bet it converts PowerFLARMs more useful traffic warnings say
when
>therma=
>lling with other gliders into ADS-B warnings going off all the time
>nonsen=
>se. And given how the FLARM ICD (serial protocol) and GLD-90
works I doubt
>=
>there is any sane way not to have to do that. But OK, it is what it
is,
>and=
> very clearly this product is *not* aimed at gliders.
>
>I'm not sure uAvionix have promised USA FCC approval for that
device yet.
>I=
> expect they are likely to. It's not FCC approved today so can't
even be
>ad=
>vertised in the USA... which may well be why there is nothing
mentioned on
>=
>their USA website or why they don't want to irritate the FCC by
even
>talkin=
>g about it. Having been to the FCC approval mosh pit (I was going
to call
>=
>it a dance :-)) several times before uAvionix should know very
well what
>t=
>hey are doing with FCC approval.
>
>Their launch for the product was very UK centric, which was pretty
>interest=
>ing given how far behind overall ADS-B adoption is in Europe vs.
the USA,
>t=
>hey seem to be hoping to move that needle, ride on UK interest in
TABS and
>=
>FIS-B trials and combining some FLARM capability. So quite a
intersting
>kit=
>chen sink of a product for those uses and very interesting that
uAvionix
>ar=
>e so growth oriented they are lookin at trying to seed that market.
>
>So then you want to ask if you need an actual PowerFLARM device
to
>connect=
> to the SkyEcho 2 to do FLARM then what else does the SkyEcho 2
provide,
>a=
>nd importantly is it a replacement for a transponder?
>
>Importantly the SkyEcho 2 *not* a full transponder but does
implement
>TABS/=
>TSO-C199 so should provide compatibility with TCAS which is
obviously
>impor=
>tant. I'd love to see one working. ATC will likely not see that device
>howe=
>ver and that's going to be an issue in many places near busy ATC
areas.
>AT=
>C *does* sees Trig transponders running as TABS devices, as they
are full
>t=
>ransponders underneath the TABS 1090ES Out part. The ATC
visibility part
>is=
> a large concern for me, especially around places like the Minden
area
>whic=
>h this thread started with. Without ATC visibility I would not
recommend
>th=
>at device for use in that area. I'd love to eventually get my hands
on one
>=
>to confirm and to talk about it with the friendly NOCAL TRACON
tech folks
>w=
>ho cover the Reno area.
>
>You also can't install this (or any other TABS) device in an aircraft
with
>=
>an existing Mode C or Mode S transponder.... so can't get visibility
to
>ATC=
> that way. I can't imagine any glider owner with a transponder in
their
>gli=
>der who would want to pull it out and replace it with a SkyEcho 2
if that
>=
>meant losing visibility to ATC... a large part of why they installed
the
>tr=
>ansponder to start with.
>
>The SkyEcho 2 also won't meet FAA 2020 ADS-B Out
requirements, and
>although=
> gliders are partially exempt, we still have folks who want to say
overfly
>=
>Class C airspace (but below 10,000').
>
>It's a little confusing in some many ways the SkyEcho seems more
targeted
>a=
>t UAVs (or maybe ultralights) but things like UAT In/FIS-B is more
a GA
>fea=
>ture, so it sure is an intersting product to follow for geeks like me,
>but=
> kind of wedged into a space between others products, especially
with full
>=
>Mode S/1090ES Out transponders on one side. We'll see....
>
>Other products with combined ADS-B and FLARM capabilities...
>
>PowerFLARM today does 1090ES In (Direct only, no ADS-R and
TIS-B) and
>FLARM=
>.. (effectively all PowerFLARM sold in the USA have the 1090ES In
option).=
>=20
>
>LXNav PowerMouse is coming, apparently undergoing FCC
approval, with its
>A=
>DS-B In option it does 1090ES In (but unlike PowerFLARM it
*does* ADS-R
>an=
>d hopefully TIS-B) and FLARM. (hopefully LXNav will be smart here
and the
>P=
>owerMouse sold in the USA will all have 1090ES In option).
>
>Other vendors like AirAvionic have new FLARM products with
1090ES In
>capabi=
>lities coming, I wish they would start describing those product
specs and
>c=
>apabilities more clearly and ideally clarifying their plans for the
USA
>mar=
>ket. (their ATD57 display is still great however if anybody wants a
>dedicat=
>ed FLARM display).
>
>---
>
>Alastair I assume you are in the UK? or elsewhere in Europe. I'm
you not
>su=
>re why you care about FLARM and the USA with a LXNav 9070, but
if you
>real=
>ly want to operate in the USA hopefully you have a standard
PowerFLARM
>exte=
>rnal box (i.e. a model with FCC approval) connected to the 9070.
>
>

[Alastair Lyas[_2_]]

If you fly anywhere near other gliders then a simple proximity alarm
is going to get pretty annoying and be pretty useless. If you fly near
GA then ADSB is going to become essential. This is true of the US,
the UK, and probably EU. If you fly in a glider with finite battery
then an ADSB transceiver makes a whole lot more sense than a
transponder.

Regulation will need to catch-up, and the product set needs to
evolve. Flarm and UAVionix are working together. What they need is
to hear from gliderpilots about what solutions will work for us.
Otherwise all they will design for is GA.

My view is we want a combined Powerflarm / ADSB OEM module
that can slot into the native gliding navigation systems. With
software configurability to deal with the regional legalities of doing
this in the short term.


At 23:52 11 October 2018, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
>On Thursday, October 11, 2018 at 2:47:12 PM UTC-7, Darryl
Ramm wrote:
>> On Thursday, October 11, 2018 at 2:30:05 AM UTC-7, Alastair
Lyas wrote:
>> > Might be worth waiting for products combining both ADSB
and=20
>> > Flarm?
>>=20
>> The uAvionix SkyEcho 2 is innovative in ways, but to me it has
lots of
>li=
>mitations and is just not that interesting for the USA glider market
at
>lea=
>st, which is why I've not mentioned it before on r.a.s. But here
goes...
>>=20
>> I always expect there is interesting stuff coming, but folks do
need to
>=
>be a little careful what they might decide to wait for. Well over a
decade
>=
>ago some folks in the Minden area were waiting for mythical UAT
devices
>tha=
>t never happened, lots of handwaving not grounded in reality, and
in some
>c=
>ases owners unfortunately were putting off transponder adoption
because of
>=
>that. Let's not repeat anything like that again. And for the SkyEcho
2 we
>d=
>on't need to wait to actually look at what this device does or does
not do
>=
>since documentation has been available for a while. And much of
my
>comments=
> below come from just reading that documentation... but OK, with
a pretty
>g=
>ood understanding of the underlying technology.
>>=20
>> The SkyEcho 2 does not include a FLARM transceiver, so in the
USA today
>y=
>ou would be adding a PowerFLARM to it via the FLARMBridge
option to get
>FLA=
>RM capability. That immediately makes it uninteresting to lots of
glider
>ow=
>ners. According to the documentation the combined devices do
*not* take
>ADS=
>-B traffic and output that on a FLARM serial protocol link so the
usual
>tra=
>ffic displays used in a glider can see them... it seems to only works
the
>o=
>ther way and takes FLARM traffic and adds it to what is being sent
over
>GLD=
>-90 protocol to GA EFBs etc. The reverse of what most glider pilots
want
>in=
> a cockpit (and what PowerFLARM does today for 1090ES Direct
traffic). And
>=
>I'll bet it converts PowerFLARMs more useful traffic warnings say
when
>ther=
>malling with other gliders into ADS-B warnings going off all the
time
>nons=
>ense. And given how the FLARM ICD (serial protocol) and GLD-90
works I
>doub=
>t there is any sane way not to have to do that. But OK, it is what it
is,
>a=
>nd very clearly this product is *not* aimed at gliders.
>>=20
>> I'm not sure uAvionix have promised USA FCC approval for that
device
>yet.=
> I expect they are likely to. It's not FCC approved today so can't
even be
>=
>advertised in the USA... which may well be why there is nothing
mentioned
>o=
>n their USA website or why they don't want to irritate the FCC by
even
>talk=
>ing about it. Having been to the FCC approval mosh pit (I was
going to
>cal=
>l it a dance :-)) several times before uAvionix should know very
well
>what=
> they are doing with FCC approval.
>>=20
>> Their launch for the product was very UK centric, which was
pretty
>intere=
>sting given how far behind overall ADS-B adoption is in Europe vs.
the
>USA,=
> they seem to be hoping to move that needle, ride on UK interest
in TABS
>an=
>d FIS-B trials and combining some FLARM capability. So quite a
intersting
>k=
>itchen sink of a product for those uses and very interesting that
uAvionix
>=
>are so growth oriented they are lookin at trying to seed that
market.
>>=20
>> So then you want to ask if you need an actual PowerFLARM
device to
>conne=
>ct to the SkyEcho 2 to do FLARM then what else does the SkyEcho
2
>provide,=
> and importantly is it a replacement for a transponder?
>>=20
>> Importantly the SkyEcho 2 *not* a full transponder but does
implement
>TAB=
>S/TSO-C199 so should provide compatibility with TCAS which is
obviously
>imp=
>ortant. I'd love to see one working. ATC will likely not see that
device
>ho=
>wever and that's going to be an issue in many places near busy
ATC areas.
>=
>ATC *does* sees Trig transponders running as TABS devices, as
they are
>full=
> transponders underneath the TABS 1090ES Out part. The ATC
visibility part
>=
>is a large concern for me, especially around places like the Minden
area
>wh=
>ich this thread started with. Without ATC visibility I would not
recommend
>=
>that device for use in that area. I'd love to eventually get my
hands on
>on=
>e to confirm and to talk about it with the friendly NOCAL TRACON
tech
>folks=
> who cover the Reno area.
>>=20
>> You also can't install this (or any other TABS) device in an
aircraft
>wit=
>h an existing Mode C or Mode S transponder.... so can't get
visibility to
>A=
>TC that way. I can't imagine any glider owner with a transponder
in their
>g=
>lider who would want to pull it out and replace it with a SkyEcho 2
if
>tha=
>t meant losing visibility to ATC... a large part of why they installed
the
>=
>transponder to start with.
>>=20
>> The SkyEcho 2 also won't meet FAA 2020 ADS-B Out
requirements, and
>althou=
>gh gliders are partially exempt, we still have folks who want to say
>overfl=
>y Class C airspace (but below 10,000').
>>=20
>> It's a little confusing in some many ways the SkyEcho seems
more
>targeted=
> at UAVs (or maybe ultralights) but things like UAT In/FIS-B is
more a GA
>f=
>eature, so it sure is an intersting product to follow for geeks like
me,
>b=
>ut kind of wedged into a space between others products, especially
with
>ful=
>l Mode S/1090ES Out transponders on one side. We'll see....
>>=20
>> Other products with combined ADS-B and FLARM capabilities...
>>=20
>> PowerFLARM today does 1090ES In (Direct only, no ADS-R and
TIS-B) and
>FLA=
>RM. (effectively all PowerFLARM sold in the USA have the 1090ES
In
>option).=
>=20
>>=20
>> LXNav PowerMouse is coming, apparently undergoing FCC
approval, with
>its=
> ADS-B In option it does 1090ES In (but unlike PowerFLARM it
*does* ADS-R
>=
>and hopefully TIS-B) and FLARM. (hopefully LXNav will be smart
here and
>the=
> PowerMouse sold in the USA will all have 1090ES In option).
>>=20
>> Other vendors like AirAvionic have new FLARM products with
1090ES In
>capa=
>bilities coming, I wish they would start describing those product
specs
>and=
> capabilities more clearly and ideally clarifying their plans for the
USA
>m=
>arket. (their ATD57 display is still great however if anybody wants
a
>dedic=
>ated FLARM display).
>>=20
>> ---
>>=20
>> Alastair I assume you are in the UK? or elsewhere in Europe. I'm
you not
>=
>sure why you care about FLARM and the USA with a LXNav 9070,
but if you
>re=
>ally want to operate in the USA hopefully you have a standard
PowerFLARM
>ex=
>ternal box (i.e. a model with FCC approval) connected to the 9070.
>
>You are a stud!
>
>J
>

[Darryl Ramm]

Oh we need stuff to "work together" and have "low power consumption". No **** batman. You just worked this out? I don't get the impression you have much of an idea of the technology here, but please do go explain to uAvionix and others what they should be doing for the glider market...


On Friday, October 12, 2018 at 1:45:03 AM UTC-7, Alastair Lyas wrote:
> If you fly anywhere near other gliders then a simple proximity alarm
> is going to get pretty annoying and be pretty useless. If you fly near
> GA then ADSB is going to become essential. This is true of the US,
> the UK, and probably EU. If you fly in a glider with finite battery
> then an ADSB transceiver makes a whole lot more sense than a
> transponder.
>
> Regulation will need to catch-up, and the product set needs to
> evolve. Flarm and UAVionix are working together. What they need is
> to hear from gliderpilots about what solutions will work for us.
> Otherwise all they will design for is GA.
>
> My view is we want a combined Powerflarm / ADSB OEM module
> that can slot into the native gliding navigation systems. With
> software configurability to deal with the regional legalities of doing
> this in the short term.
>
>
> At 23:52 11 October 2018, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> >On Thursday, October 11, 2018 at 2:47:12 PM UTC-7, Darryl
> Ramm wrote:
> >> On Thursday, October 11, 2018 at 2:30:05 AM UTC-7, Alastair
> Lyas wrote:
> >> > Might be worth waiting for products combining both ADSB
> and=20
> >> > Flarm?
> >>=20
> >> The uAvionix SkyEcho 2 is innovative in ways, but to me it has
> lots of
> >li=
> >mitations and is just not that interesting for the USA glider market
> at
> >lea=
> >st, which is why I've not mentioned it before on r.a.s. But here
> goes...
> >>=20
> >> I always expect there is interesting stuff coming, but folks do
> need to
> >=
> >be a little careful what they might decide to wait for. Well over a
> decade
> >=
> >ago some folks in the Minden area were waiting for mythical UAT
> devices
> >tha=
> >t never happened, lots of handwaving not grounded in reality, and
> in some
> >c=
> >ases owners unfortunately were putting off transponder adoption
> because of
> >=
> >that. Let's not repeat anything like that again. And for the SkyEcho
> 2 we
> >d=
> >on't need to wait to actually look at what this device does or does
> not do
> >=
> >since documentation has been available for a while. And much of
> my
> >comments=
> > below come from just reading that documentation... but OK, with
> a pretty
> >g=
> >ood understanding of the underlying technology.
> >>=20
> >> The SkyEcho 2 does not include a FLARM transceiver, so in the
> USA today
> >y=
> >ou would be adding a PowerFLARM to it via the FLARMBridge
> option to get
> >FLA=
> >RM capability. That immediately makes it uninteresting to lots of
> glider
> >ow=
> >ners. According to the documentation the combined devices do
> *not* take
> >ADS=
> >-B traffic and output that on a FLARM serial protocol link so the
> usual
> >tra=
> >ffic displays used in a glider can see them... it seems to only works
> the
> >o=
> >ther way and takes FLARM traffic and adds it to what is being sent
> over
> >GLD=
> >-90 protocol to GA EFBs etc. The reverse of what most glider pilots
> want
> >in=
> > a cockpit (and what PowerFLARM does today for 1090ES Direct
> traffic). And
> >=
> >I'll bet it converts PowerFLARMs more useful traffic warnings say
> when
> >ther=
> >malling with other gliders into ADS-B warnings going off all the
> time
> >nons=
> >ense. And given how the FLARM ICD (serial protocol) and GLD-90
> works I
> >doub=
> >t there is any sane way not to have to do that. But OK, it is what it
> is,
> >a=
> >nd very clearly this product is *not* aimed at gliders.
> >>=20
> >> I'm not sure uAvionix have promised USA FCC approval for that
> device
> >yet.=
> > I expect they are likely to. It's not FCC approved today so can't
> even be
> >=
> >advertised in the USA... which may well be why there is nothing
> mentioned
> >o=
> >n their USA website or why they don't want to irritate the FCC by
> even
> >talk=
> >ing about it. Having been to the FCC approval mosh pit (I was
> going to
> >cal=
> >l it a dance :-)) several times before uAvionix should know very
> well
> >what=
> > they are doing with FCC approval.
> >>=20
> >> Their launch for the product was very UK centric, which was
> pretty
> >intere=
> >sting given how far behind overall ADS-B adoption is in Europe vs.
> the
> >USA,=
> > they seem to be hoping to move that needle, ride on UK interest
> in TABS
> >an=
> >d FIS-B trials and combining some FLARM capability. So quite a
> intersting
> >k=
> >itchen sink of a product for those uses and very interesting that
> uAvionix
> >=
> >are so growth oriented they are lookin at trying to seed that
> market.
> >>=20
> >> So then you want to ask if you need an actual PowerFLARM
> device to
> >conne=
> >ct to the SkyEcho 2 to do FLARM then what else does the SkyEcho
> 2
> >provide,=
> > and importantly is it a replacement for a transponder?
> >>=20
> >> Importantly the SkyEcho 2 *not* a full transponder but does
> implement
> >TAB=
> >S/TSO-C199 so should provide compatibility with TCAS which is
> obviously
> >imp=
> >ortant. I'd love to see one working. ATC will likely not see that
> device
> >ho=
> >wever and that's going to be an issue in many places near busy
> ATC areas.
> >=
> >ATC *does* sees Trig transponders running as TABS devices, as
> they are
> >full=
> > transponders underneath the TABS 1090ES Out part. The ATC
> visibility part
> >=
> >is a large concern for me, especially around places like the Minden
> area
> >wh=
> >ich this thread started with. Without ATC visibility I would not
> recommend
> >=
> >that device for use in that area. I'd love to eventually get my
> hands on
> >on=
> >e to confirm and to talk about it with the friendly NOCAL TRACON
> tech
> >folks=
> > who cover the Reno area.
> >>=20
> >> You also can't install this (or any other TABS) device in an
> aircraft
> >wit=
> >h an existing Mode C or Mode S transponder.... so can't get
> visibility to
> >A=
> >TC that way. I can't imagine any glider owner with a transponder
> in their
> >g=
> >lider who would want to pull it out and replace it with a SkyEcho 2
> if
> >tha=
> >t meant losing visibility to ATC... a large part of why they installed
> the
> >=
> >transponder to start with.
> >>=20
> >> The SkyEcho 2 also won't meet FAA 2020 ADS-B Out
> requirements, and
> >althou=
> >gh gliders are partially exempt, we still have folks who want to say
> >overfl=
> >y Class C airspace (but below 10,000').
> >>=20
> >> It's a little confusing in some many ways the SkyEcho seems
> more
> >targeted=
> > at UAVs (or maybe ultralights) but things like UAT In/FIS-B is
> more a GA
> >f=
> >eature, so it sure is an intersting product to follow for geeks like
> me,
> >b=
> >ut kind of wedged into a space between others products, especially
> with
> >ful=
> >l Mode S/1090ES Out transponders on one side. We'll see....
> >>=20
> >> Other products with combined ADS-B and FLARM capabilities...
> >>=20
> >> PowerFLARM today does 1090ES In (Direct only, no ADS-R and
> TIS-B) and
> >FLA=
> >RM. (effectively all PowerFLARM sold in the USA have the 1090ES
> In
> >option).=
> >=20
> >>=20
> >> LXNav PowerMouse is coming, apparently undergoing FCC
> approval, with
> >its=
> > ADS-B In option it does 1090ES In (but unlike PowerFLARM it
> *does* ADS-R
> >=
> >and hopefully TIS-B) and FLARM. (hopefully LXNav will be smart
> here and
> >the=
> > PowerMouse sold in the USA will all have 1090ES In option).
> >>=20
> >> Other vendors like AirAvionic have new FLARM products with
> 1090ES In
> >capa=
> >bilities coming, I wish they would start describing those product
> specs
> >and=
> > capabilities more clearly and ideally clarifying their plans for the
> USA
> >m=
> >arket. (their ATD57 display is still great however if anybody wants
> a
> >dedic=
> >ated FLARM display).
> >>=20
> >> ---
> >>=20
> >> Alastair I assume you are in the UK? or elsewhere in Europe. I'm
> you not
> >=
> >sure why you care about FLARM and the USA with a LXNav 9070,
> but if you
> >re=
> >ally want to operate in the USA hopefully you have a standard
> PowerFLARM
> >ex=
> >ternal box (i.e. a model with FCC approval) connected to the 9070.
> >
> >You are a stud!
> >
> >J
> >

[Alastair Lyas[_2_]]

I can certainly read the specs off a website and wave my willy with a
lot of talk of what products are currently on the market.



At 09:18 12 October 2018, Darryl Ramm wrote:
>
>Oh we need stuff to "work together" and have "low power
consumption". No
>sh=
>it batman. You just worked this out? I don't get the impression you
have
>mu=
>ch of an idea of the technology here, but please do go explain to
uAvionix
>=
>and others what they should be doing for the glider market...
>
>
>On Friday, October 12, 2018 at 1:45:03 AM UTC-7, Alastair Lyas
wrote:
>> If you fly anywhere near other gliders then a simple proximity
alarm=20
>> is going to get pretty annoying and be pretty useless. If you fly
near=20
>> GA then ADSB is going to become essential. This is true of the
US,=20
>> the UK, and probably EU. If you fly in a glider with finite
battery=20
>> then an ADSB transceiver makes a whole lot more sense than
a=20
>> transponder.
>>=20
>> Regulation will need to catch-up, and the product set needs
to=20
>> evolve. Flarm and UAVionix are working together. What they
need is=20
>> to hear from gliderpilots about what solutions will work for
us.=20
>> Otherwise all they will design for is GA.=20
>>=20
>> My view is we want a combined Powerflarm / ADSB OEM
module=20
>> that can slot into the native gliding navigation systems. With=20
>> software configurability to deal with the regional legalities of
doing=20
>> this in the short term.
>>=20
>>=20
>> At 23:52 11 October 2018, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
>> >On Thursday, October 11, 2018 at 2:47:12 PM UTC-7,
Darryl=20
>> Ramm wrote:
>> >> On Thursday, October 11, 2018 at 2:30:05 AM UTC-7,
Alastair=20
>> Lyas wrote:
>> >> > Might be worth waiting for products combining both
ADSB=20
>> and=3D20
>> >> > Flarm?
>> >>=3D20
>> >> The uAvionix SkyEcho 2 is innovative in ways, but to me it
has=20
>> lots of
>> >li=3D
>> >mitations and is just not that interesting for the USA glider
market=20
>> at
>> >lea=3D
>> >st, which is why I've not mentioned it before on r.a.s. But
here=20
>> goes...
>> >>=3D20
>> >> I always expect there is interesting stuff coming, but folks
do=20
>> need to
>> >=3D
>> >be a little careful what they might decide to wait for. Well over
a=20
>> decade
>> >=3D
>> >ago some folks in the Minden area were waiting for mythical
UAT=20
>> devices
>> >tha=3D
>> >t never happened, lots of handwaving not grounded in reality,
and=20
>> in some
>> >c=3D
>> >ases owners unfortunately were putting off transponder
adoption=20
>> because of
>> >=3D
>> >that. Let's not repeat anything like that again. And for the
SkyEcho=20
>> 2 we
>> >d=3D
>> >on't need to wait to actually look at what this device does or
does=20
>> not do
>> >=3D
>> >since documentation has been available for a while. And much
of=20
>> my
>> >comments=3D
>> > below come from just reading that documentation... but OK,
with=20
>> a pretty
>> >g=3D
>> >ood understanding of the underlying technology.
>> >>=3D20
>> >> The SkyEcho 2 does not include a FLARM transceiver, so in
the=20
>> USA today
>> >y=3D
>> >ou would be adding a PowerFLARM to it via the
FLARMBridge=20
>> option to get
>> >FLA=3D
>> >RM capability. That immediately makes it uninteresting to lots
of=20
>> glider
>> >ow=3D
>> >ners. According to the documentation the combined devices
do=20
>> *not* take
>> >ADS=3D
>> >-B traffic and output that on a FLARM serial protocol link so
the=20
>> usual
>> >tra=3D
>> >ffic displays used in a glider can see them... it seems to only
works=20
>> the
>> >o=3D
>> >ther way and takes FLARM traffic and adds it to what is being
sent=20
>> over
>> >GLD=3D
>> >-90 protocol to GA EFBs etc. The reverse of what most glider
pilots=20
>> want
>> >in=3D
>> > a cockpit (and what PowerFLARM does today for 1090ES
Direct=20
>> traffic). And
>> >=3D
>> >I'll bet it converts PowerFLARMs more useful traffic warnings
say=20
>> when
>> >ther=3D
>> >malling with other gliders into ADS-B warnings going off all
the=20
>> time
>> >nons=3D
>> >ense. And given how the FLARM ICD (serial protocol) and GLD-
90=20
>> works I
>> >doub=3D
>> >t there is any sane way not to have to do that. But OK, it is
what it=20
>> is,
>> >a=3D
>> >nd very clearly this product is *not* aimed at gliders.
>> >>=3D20
>> >> I'm not sure uAvionix have promised USA FCC approval for
that=20
>> device
>> >yet.=3D
>> > I expect they are likely to. It's not FCC approved today so
can't=20
>> even be
>> >=3D
>> >advertised in the USA... which may well be why there is
nothing=20
>> mentioned
>> >o=3D
>> >n their USA website or why they don't want to irritate the FCC
by=20
>> even
>> >talk=3D
>> >ing about it. Having been to the FCC approval mosh pit (I
was=20
>> going to
>> >cal=3D
>> >l it a dance :-)) several times before uAvionix should know
very=20
>> well
>> >what=3D
>> > they are doing with FCC approval.
>> >>=3D20
>> >> Their launch for the product was very UK centric, which
was=20
>> pretty
>> >intere=3D
>> >sting given how far behind overall ADS-B adoption is in Europe
vs.=20
>> the
>> >USA,=3D
>> > they seem to be hoping to move that needle, ride on UK
interest=20
>> in TABS
>> >an=3D
>> >d FIS-B trials and combining some FLARM capability. So quite
a=20
>> intersting
>> >k=3D
>> >itchen sink of a product for those uses and very interesting
that=20
>> uAvionix
>> >=3D
>> >are so growth oriented they are lookin at trying to seed
that=20
>> market.
>> >>=3D20
>> >> So then you want to ask if you need an actual
PowerFLARM=20
>> device to
>> >conne=3D
>> >ct to the SkyEcho 2 to do FLARM then what else does the
SkyEcho=20
>> 2=20
>> >provide,=3D
>> > and importantly is it a replacement for a transponder?
>> >>=3D20
>> >> Importantly the SkyEcho 2 *not* a full transponder but
does=20
>> implement
>> >TAB=3D
>> >S/TSO-C199 so should provide compatibility with TCAS which
is=20
>> obviously
>> >imp=3D
>> >ortant. I'd love to see one working. ATC will likely not see
that=20
>> device
>> >ho=3D
>> >wever and that's going to be an issue in many places near
busy=20
>> ATC areas.=20
>> >=3D
>> >ATC *does* sees Trig transponders running as TABS devices,
as=20
>> they are
>> >full=3D
>> > transponders underneath the TABS 1090ES Out part. The
ATC=20
>> visibility part
>> >=3D
>> >is a large concern for me, especially around places like the
Minden=20
>> area
>> >wh=3D
>> >ich this thread started with. Without ATC visibility I would
not=20
>> recommend
>> >=3D
>> >that device for use in that area. I'd love to eventually get
my=20
>> hands on
>> >on=3D
>> >e to confirm and to talk about it with the friendly NOCAL
TRACON=20
>> tech
>> >folks=3D
>> > who cover the Reno area.
>> >>=3D20
>> >> You also can't install this (or any other TABS) device in
an=20
>> aircraft
>> >wit=3D
>> >h an existing Mode C or Mode S transponder.... so can't
get=20
>> visibility to
>> >A=3D
>> >TC that way. I can't imagine any glider owner with a
transponder=20
>> in their
>> >g=3D
>> >lider who would want to pull it out and replace it with a
SkyEcho 2=20
>> if
>> >tha=3D
>> >t meant losing visibility to ATC... a large part of why they
installed=
>=20
>> the
>> >=3D
>> >transponder to start with.
>> >>=3D20
>> >> The SkyEcho 2 also won't meet FAA 2020 ADS-B Out=20
>> requirements, and
>> >althou=3D
>> >gh gliders are partially exempt, we still have folks who want to
say
>> >overfl=3D
>> >y Class C airspace (but below 10,000').
>> >>=3D20
>> >> It's a little confusing in some many ways the SkyEcho
seems=20
>> more
>> >targeted=3D
>> > at UAVs (or maybe ultralights) but things like UAT In/FIS-B
is=20
>> more a GA
>> >f=3D
>> >eature, so it sure is an intersting product to follow for geeks
like=20
>> me,=20
>> >b=3D
>> >ut kind of wedged into a space between others products,
especially=20
>> with
>> >ful=3D
>> >l Mode S/1090ES Out transponders on one side. We'll see....
>> >>=3D20
>> >> Other products with combined ADS-B and FLARM
capabilities...
>> >>=3D20
>> >> PowerFLARM today does 1090ES In (Direct only, no ADS-R
and=20
>> TIS-B) and
>> >FLA=3D
>> >RM. (effectively all PowerFLARM sold in the USA have the
1090ES=20
>> In
>> >option).=3D
>> >=3D20
>> >>=3D20
>> >> LXNav PowerMouse is coming, apparently undergoing
FCC=20
>> approval, with
>> >its=3D
>> > ADS-B In option it does 1090ES In (but unlike PowerFLARM
it=20
>> *does* ADS-R
>> >=3D
>> >and hopefully TIS-B) and FLARM. (hopefully LXNav will be
smart=20
>> here and
>> >the=3D
>> > PowerMouse sold in the USA will all have 1090ES In option).
>> >>=3D20
>> >> Other vendors like AirAvionic have new FLARM products
with=20
>> 1090ES In
>> >capa=3D
>> >bilities coming, I wish they would start describing those
product=20
>> specs
>> >and=3D
>> > capabilities more clearly and ideally clarifying their plans for
the=20
>> USA
>> >m=3D
>> >arket. (their ATD57 display is still great however if anybody
wants=20
>> a
>> >dedic=3D
>> >ated FLARM display).
>> >>=3D20
>> >> ---
>> >>=3D20
>> >> Alastair I assume you are in the UK? or elsewhere in Europe.
I'm=20
>> you not
>> >=3D
>> >sure why you care about FLARM and the USA with a LXNav
9070,=20
>> but if you
>> >re=3D
>> >ally want to operate in the USA hopefully you have a
standard=20
>> PowerFLARM
>> >ex=3D
>> >ternal box (i.e. a model with FCC approval) connected to the
9070.
>> >
>> >You are a stud!
>> >
>> >J
>> >
>
>