New $500 FAA ADS-B Rebate ... some motorgliders/sustainers qualify

[Darryl Ramm]

It's back.... https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/rebate

Hopefully may be time for some folks doing ADS-B Out installs over this winter break to get a rebate. Only applies to 2020 Complaint installs (so not TABS/SIL=1).

And the rules make clear...

Type Aircraft = ‘Fixed wing single engine’ or ‘Glider’; AND
Type Engine = ‘Reciprocating’ OR ‘4 Cycle’ OR ‘2 Cycle’

So only applies to non-jet sustainers and motorgliders.

I'm mostly curious how many folks are willing to deal with all the extra effort for $500.

It's of course a silly way of doing this, I would have much preferred to see a program that targeted all aircraft including gliders, maybe targeting those based or flown around busy traffic areas.

[JS[_5_]]

On Friday, October 12, 2018 at 10:27:09 AM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> It's back.... https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/rebate
>
> Hopefully may be time for some folks doing ADS-B Out installs over this winter break to get a rebate. Only applies to 2020 Complaint installs (so not TABS/SIL=1).
>
> And the rules make clear...
>
> Type Aircraft = ‘Fixed wing single engine’ or ‘Glider’; AND
> Type Engine = ‘Reciprocating’ OR ‘4 Cycle’ OR ‘2 Cycle’
>
> So only applies to non-jet sustainers and motorgliders.
>
> I'm mostly curious how many folks are willing to deal with all the extra effort for $500.
>
> It's of course a silly way of doing this, I would have much preferred to see a program that targeted all aircraft including gliders, maybe targeting those based or flown around busy traffic areas.

To keep up the cheapskate glider pilot stereotype, I'm installing a BMW 4-stroke self-launch kit in the 29 so I can get a $500 rebate on ADS-B.
Jim

[Darryl Ramm]

OK well I goofed there. It applies to non-jet and non-electric motorgliders and sustainers.

Sorry did not mean to leave off the electric. Thanks to Dave Nadler for the correction.


Darryl

On Friday, October 12, 2018 at 10:27:09 AM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> It's back.... https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/rebate
>
> Hopefully may be time for some folks doing ADS-B Out installs over this winter break to get a rebate. Only applies to 2020 Complaint installs (so not TABS/SIL=1).
>
> And the rules make clear...
>
> Type Aircraft = ‘Fixed wing single engine’ or ‘Glider’; AND
> Type Engine = ‘Reciprocating’ OR ‘4 Cycle’ OR ‘2 Cycle’
>
> So only applies to non-jet sustainers and motorgliders.
>
> I'm mostly curious how many folks are willing to deal with all the extra effort for $500.
>
> It's of course a silly way of doing this, I would have much preferred to see a program that targeted all aircraft including gliders, maybe targeting those based or flown around busy traffic areas.

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

Interesting update, I believe the old rebate excluded any aircraft with "no electrical system (gliders, Cubs, etc.)".
So, no gliders were included, maybe even motorgliders/self launchers/sustainers.

[Dan Marotta]

Well...Â* My Stemme has an electrical system.Â* I'm taking a look.

My concern is about getting a Supplemental Type Certificate (STC) for
the installation.Â* My past research, surely out of date by now, named a
single avionics shop as Trig's representative for the TT22/TN70
combination.Â* When I last looked there was no mention of the Stemme on
their vast list of acceptable aircraft.Â* Maybe that's now changed or
maybe my mechanic can do a simple field install. We'll see...

On 10/12/2018 12:32 PM, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> Interesting update, I believe the old rebate excluded any aircraft with "no electrical system (gliders, Cubs, etc.)".
> So, no gliders were included, maybe even motorgliders/self launchers/sustainers.

--
Dan, 5J

[Darryl Ramm]

Dan

As mentioned in a recent email. Any of the glider Trig resellers should be able to get you/your A&P the required STC for the TN70+TT22 for install with your or any other glider. Wings and Wheels and I and others worked with Pereguine (the STC holder) and Trig to make sure that STC would be available to glider installers. Go through your favorite Trig glider dealers and if you have problems with the STC let me know. Pereguine are great folks.

Be careful: If you walk into a random GA avionics shop who is not a Trig approved installer that may (correctly) tell you they cannot get that STC.

[Dan Marotta]

Thanks Darryl,

I just got back from the Peregrine website and found no reference to
Stemme in their AML.Â* Since I bought my TT22 from Paul Remde, I've
contacted him for help.Â* I also emailed Peregrine.

Dan

On 10/12/2018 1:42 PM, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> Dan
>
> As mentioned in a recent email. Any of the glider Trig resellers should be able to get you/your A&P the required STC for the TN70+TT22 for install with your or any other glider. Wings and Wheels and I and others worked with Pereguine (the STC holder) and Trig to make sure that STC would be available to glider installers. Go through your favorite Trig glider dealers and if you have problems with the STC let me know. Pereguine are great folks.
>
> Be careful: If you walk into a random GA avionics shop who is not a Trig approved installer that may (correctly) tell you they cannot get that STC.

--
Dan, 5J

[Darryl Ramm]

Uh let’s kill that one. I have mentioned this lots before but it is confusing. Your Stemme does *not* need to be on the STC AML. Your A&P should not be using this STC as basis for a major modification. They sould only using this as justification for the pairing of the TT22 and TN70. Your installer should refer to FAA AFS-360-2017-1, INSTALLATION OF ADS-B OUT EQUIPMENT. And do just what is required there, and no more. https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/installation/media/ADS-B_Out-In_Installation_Tech_Paper(9-25-17).pdf

Please have your A&P/avionics shop talk to me if they have questions about this.

Darryl

[2G]

On Friday, October 12, 2018 at 11:07:26 AM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> OK well I goofed there. It applies to non-jet and non-electric motorgliders and sustainers.
>
> Sorry did not mean to leave off the electric. Thanks to Dave Nadler for the correction.
>
>
> Darryl
>
> On Friday, October 12, 2018 at 10:27:09 AM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > It's back.... https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/rebate
> >
> > Hopefully may be time for some folks doing ADS-B Out installs over this winter break to get a rebate. Only applies to 2020 Complaint installs (so not TABS/SIL=1).
> >
> > And the rules make clear...
> >
> > Type Aircraft = ‘Fixed wing single engine’ or ‘Glider’; AND
> > Type Engine = ‘Reciprocating’ OR ‘4 Cycle’ OR ‘2 Cycle’
> >
> > So only applies to non-jet sustainers and motorgliders.
> >
> > I'm mostly curious how many folks are willing to deal with all the extra effort for $500.
> >
> > It's of course a silly way of doing this, I would have much preferred to see a program that targeted all aircraft including gliders, maybe targeting those based or flown around busy traffic areas.

It also doesn't apply to rotary-powered aircraft like Schleichers. It is easier to say that it DOES apply to piston-powered aircraft, so Solo equipped MGs are covered. Also, the aircraft must have been registered prior to 1/1/16.

Tom

[Darryl Ramm]

Yes! But wait... it's even sillier.... it depends. Some Schleicher motorglider engines are listed as "rotary" and some as "reciprocating", depends on what engine manufacturer they are keyed in under, for basically the identical engine. I should have looked more carefully, I had checked "Mid-West" and that returned "reciprocating".

It would have been great if the SSA was looking at this rebate program.

I am going to try to ask folks in the FAA about it.

---

There is interesting stuff in the FAA registration database. Like what is going on here: https://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_Results.aspx?NNumbertxt=794FM :-0


Darryl

On Friday, October 12, 2018 at 10:16:22 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> On Friday, October 12, 2018 at 11:07:26 AM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > OK well I goofed there. It applies to non-jet and non-electric motorgliders and sustainers.
> >
> > Sorry did not mean to leave off the electric. Thanks to Dave Nadler for the correction.
> >
> >
> > Darryl
> >
> > On Friday, October 12, 2018 at 10:27:09 AM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > > It's back.... https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/rebate
> > >
> > > Hopefully may be time for some folks doing ADS-B Out installs over this winter break to get a rebate. Only applies to 2020 Complaint installs (so not TABS/SIL=1).
> > >
> > > And the rules make clear...
> > >
> > > Type Aircraft = ‘Fixed wing single engine’ or ‘Glider’; AND
> > > Type Engine = ‘Reciprocating’ OR ‘4 Cycle’ OR ‘2 Cycle’
> > >
> > > So only applies to non-jet sustainers and motorgliders.
> > >
> > > I'm mostly curious how many folks are willing to deal with all the extra effort for $500.
> > >
> > > It's of course a silly way of doing this, I would have much preferred to see a program that targeted all aircraft including gliders, maybe targeting those based or flown around busy traffic areas.
>
> It also doesn't apply to rotary-powered aircraft like Schleichers. It is easier to say that it DOES apply to piston-powered aircraft, so Solo equipped MGs are covered. Also, the aircraft must have been registered prior to 1/1/16.
>
> Tom

[[email protected]]

On Saturday, October 13, 2018 at 1:55:52 AM UTC-4, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> Yes! But wait... it's even sillier.... it depends. Some Schleicher motorglider engines are listed as "rotary" and some as "reciprocating", depends on what engine manufacturer they are keyed in under, for basically the identical engine. I should have looked more carefully, I had checked "Mid-West" and that returned "reciprocating".
>
> It would have been great if the SSA was looking at this rebate program.
>
> I am going to try to ask folks in the FAA about it.
>
> ---
>
> There is interesting stuff in the FAA registration database. Like what is going on here: https://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_Results.aspx?NNumbertxt=794FM :-0
>
>
> Darryl
One of these?
https://www.rcplanet.com/rc-vehicles/airplane/great-planes-goldberg-eagle-2-trainer-29-49-kit-gpma0955/
That's a cheap way to log time...

[Dan Marotta]

Wait a minute!Â* Is this about age or date of registration?Â* I guess I
have to dig back into the documentation...

My Stemme was /_registered_/ in Mexico in 2004, but not in the US until
March of 2016.Â* Does that mean I'm not eligible for the rebate?

On 10/12/2018 11:16 PM, 2G wrote:
> On Friday, October 12, 2018 at 11:07:26 AM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
>> OK well I goofed there. It applies to non-jet and non-electric motorgliders and sustainers.
>>
>> Sorry did not mean to leave off the electric. Thanks to Dave Nadler for the correction.
>>
>>
>> Darryl
>>
>> On Friday, October 12, 2018 at 10:27:09 AM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
>>> It's back.... https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/rebate
>>>
>>> Hopefully may be time for some folks doing ADS-B Out installs over this winter break to get a rebate. Only applies to 2020 Complaint installs (so not TABS/SIL=1).
>>>
>>> And the rules make clear...
>>>
>>> Type Aircraft = ‘Fixed wing single engine’ or ‘Glider’; AND
>>> Type Engine = ‘Reciprocating’ OR ‘4 Cycle’ OR ‘2 Cycle’
>>>
>>> So only applies to non-jet sustainers and motorgliders.
>>>
>>> I'm mostly curious how many folks are willing to deal with all the extra effort for $500.
>>>
>>> It's of course a silly way of doing this, I would have much preferred to see a program that targeted all aircraft including gliders, maybe targeting those based or flown around busy traffic areas.
> It also doesn't apply to rotary-powered aircraft like Schleichers. It is easier to say that it DOES apply to piston-powered aircraft, so Solo equipped MGs are covered. Also, the aircraft must have been registered prior to 1/1/16.
>
> Tom

--
Dan, 5J

[Dan Marotta]

This is what the FAA says HERE
<https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/rebate/>:

*Find out if you are eligible for a rebate:*

*Eligible aircraft:*U.S.-registered, fixed-wing, single-engine piston
aircraft first registered before January 1, 2016.


As I said before, my glider was first registered in 2004 in Mexico.
/First Registered/.Â* Is their intention to say that aircraft of that age
or newer should have come from the factory with ADS-B Out installed?Â* If
that's the case, I'm golden and the $500 represents about 25% of the
cost of acquisition of the hardware (nothing for the installation).Â* But
knowing bureaucracies, that's not what they mean at all...

On 10/13/2018 8:33 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Wait a minute!Â* Is this about age or date of registration?Â* I guess I
> have to dig back into the documentation...
>
> My Stemme was /_registered_/ in Mexico in 2004, but not in the US
> until March of 2016.Â* Does that mean I'm not eligible for the rebate?
>
> On 10/12/2018 11:16 PM, 2G wrote:
>> On Friday, October 12, 2018 at 11:07:26 AM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
>>> OK well I goofed there. It applies to non-jet and non-electric motorgliders and sustainers.
>>>
>>> Sorry did not mean to leave off the electric. Thanks to Dave Nadler for the correction.
>>>
>>>
>>> Darryl
>>>
>>> On Friday, October 12, 2018 at 10:27:09 AM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
>>>> It's back....https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/rebate
>>>>
>>>> Hopefully may be time for some folks doing ADS-B Out installs over this winter break to get a rebate. Only applies to 2020 Complaint installs (so not TABS/SIL=1).
>>>>
>>>> And the rules make clear...
>>>>
>>>> Type Aircraft = ‘Fixed wing single engine’ or ‘Glider’; AND
>>>> Type Engine = ‘Reciprocating’ OR ‘4 Cycle’ OR ‘2 Cycle’
>>>>
>>>> So only applies to non-jet sustainers and motorgliders.
>>>>
>>>> I'm mostly curious how many folks are willing to deal with all the extra effort for $500.
>>>>
>>>> It's of course a silly way of doing this, I would have much preferred to see a program that targeted all aircraft including gliders, maybe targeting those based or flown around busy traffic areas.
>> It also doesn't apply to rotary-powered aircraft like Schleichers. It is easier to say that it DOES apply to piston-powered aircraft, so Solo equipped MGs are covered. Also, the aircraft must have been registered prior to 1/1/16.
>>
>> Tom
>
> --
> Dan, 5J

--
Dan, 5J

[Darryl Ramm]

On Saturday, October 13, 2018 at 5:45:24 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Saturday, October 13, 2018 at 1:55:52 AM UTC-4, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > Yes! But wait... it's even sillier.... it depends. Some Schleicher motorglider engines are listed as "rotary" and some as "reciprocating", depends on what engine manufacturer they are keyed in under, for basically the identical engine. I should have looked more carefully, I had checked "Mid-West" and that returned "reciprocating".
> >
> > It would have been great if the SSA was looking at this rebate program.
> >
> > I am going to try to ask folks in the FAA about it.
> >
> > ---
> >
> > There is interesting stuff in the FAA registration database. Like what is going on here: https://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_Results.aspx?NNumbertxt=794FM :-0
> >
> >
> > Darryl
> One of these?
> https://www.rcplanet.com/rc-vehicles/airplane/great-planes-goldberg-eagle-2-trainer-29-49-kit-gpma0955/
> That's a cheap way to log time...

That seems like a serious and irresponsible use of the FAA registration system.... the . Eagle 2 is an airplane not a glider :-)

I would love to buy the owner a beer and find out what is going on there.

[[email protected]]

On Saturday, October 13, 2018 at 5:12:16 PM UTC-4, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> On Saturday, October 13, 2018 at 5:45:24 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> > On Saturday, October 13, 2018 at 1:55:52 AM UTC-4, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > > Yes! But wait... it's even sillier.... it depends. Some Schleicher motorglider engines are listed as "rotary" and some as "reciprocating", depends on what engine manufacturer they are keyed in under, for basically the identical engine. I should have looked more carefully, I had checked "Mid-West" and that returned "reciprocating".
> > >
> > > It would have been great if the SSA was looking at this rebate program.
> > >
> > > I am going to try to ask folks in the FAA about it.
> > >
> > > ---
> > >
> > > There is interesting stuff in the FAA registration database. Like what is going on here: https://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_Results.aspx?NNumbertxt=794FM :-0
> > >
> > >
> > > Darryl
> > One of these?
> > https://www.rcplanet.com/rc-vehicles/airplane/great-planes-goldberg-eagle-2-trainer-29-49-kit-gpma0955/
> > That's a cheap way to log time...
>
> That seems like a serious and irresponsible use of the FAA registration system.... the . Eagle 2 is an airplane not a glider :-)
>
> I would love to buy the owner a beer and find out what is going on there.

Clever guy, he registered his airplane as a glider so he could fly it without a medical.

[Matt Herron Jr.]

I am in the process of doing an ADS-b out install on my experimental 27b. So far I have a Trig T22 and a T72 GPS installed and operational. I now have a ground/air pressure switch which I will put in next. Two questions for the list;

1) How do I take advantage of the $500 rebate being offered by the FAA?
2) I have heard of some flight test that needs to be performed to confirm functionality of a SIL=3 install. How do I do that?

Anything else I should know?

Thanks in advance for your help.

[Tony[_5_]]

Pure gliders are not eligible for the rebate

[MNLou]

On Wednesday, January 9, 2019 at 8:49:48 PM UTC-6, Tony wrote:
> Pure gliders are not eligible for the rebate

Are sustainer equipped experimental aircraft eligible?

Thanks -

Lou

[Scott Williams]

On Wednesday, January 9, 2019 at 8:54:53 PM UTC-6, MNLou wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 9, 2019 at 8:49:48 PM UTC-6, Tony wrote:
> > Pure gliders are not eligible for the rebate
>
> Are sustainer equipped experimental aircraft eligible?
>
> Thanks -
>
> Lou

Also, I believe the Tn72 is not full 2020 compliant, for that even in an experimental you must use the $1900 Tn70, as far as Trig made products.
I wish this whole topic was simpler, or at least as Simple as I am!!

[Dan Marotta]

Start here: https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/rebate/

The biggies are that the aircraft must be:Â* U.S.-registered, fixed-wing,
single-engine piston aircraft first registered before January 1, 2016.

My Stemme is Type Certificated but registered in the US in March of
2016.Â* I queried the FAA about that, telling them that it was first
registered in Mexico in 2004.Â* They came back with a legal opinion that
it met the requirements.Â* I was going to install ADS-B anyway for the
increased situational awareness that it gives, but it was nice to get
the rebate.

Starting with the link above, everything you need to know and accomplish
is laid out in step-by-step fashion.Â* This is actually pretty amazing
for a government program!

For my first test flight, I was in mountain wave at 18,000' MSL and in
contact with ABQ Approach Control and flew for about 1.5 hours. During
that time, there was a GPS drop out due to interference testing and,
because of a 0.08% loss of signal, the test failed.

A couple of days later, I did a simple flight with about 0.6 hours in
ADS-B airspace and landed before any GPS testing could get in the way.Â*
We have a lot of that testing going on in my location... Filing a test
report is simply a matter of going to the proper website and filling out
the request form.Â* Be aware that there is a different site to use if
you're requesting a rebate but a link to that site is given when you
reserve your rebate.

Hope that helps.Â* There's nothing that I could see in all of the FAA
stuff that said you needed self launch capability, only that it must be
single-engine piston powered.Â* Too bad if you have a jet sustainer!



On 1/9/2019 8:37 PM, Scott Williams wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 9, 2019 at 8:54:53 PM UTC-6, MNLou wrote:
>> On Wednesday, January 9, 2019 at 8:49:48 PM UTC-6, Tony wrote:
>>> Pure gliders are not eligible for the rebate
>> Are sustainer equipped experimental aircraft eligible?
>>
>> Thanks -
>>
>> Lou
> Also, I believe the Tn72 is not full 2020 compliant, for that even in an experimental you must use the $1900 Tn70, as far as Trig made products.
> I wish this whole topic was simpler, or at least as Simple as I am!!

--
Dan, 5J

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

OK....crude.....most peeps can opt out now......crude reply...........followup that is NSFW.......

[Darryl Ramm]

On Wednesday, January 9, 2019 at 7:37:09 PM UTC-8, Scott Williams wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 9, 2019 at 8:54:53 PM UTC-6, MNLou wrote:
> > On Wednesday, January 9, 2019 at 8:49:48 PM UTC-6, Tony wrote:
> > > Pure gliders are not eligible for the rebate
> >
> > Are sustainer equipped experimental aircraft eligible?
> >
> > Thanks -
> >
> > Lou
>
> Also, I believe the Tn72 is not full 2020 compliant, for that even in an experimental you must use the $1900 Tn70, as far as Trig made products.
> I wish this whole topic was simpler, or at least as Simple as I am!!

Bull****. That is absolutely not true. The TN72 jn an experimental aircraft meets all requirements of 14 CFR 91.227. Absolutely clear in Trig documentation, and I've described this many times here. But don't let that stop you just saying it's not with no proof....

[Scott Williams]

On Friday, January 11, 2019 at 12:20:05 AM UTC-6, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 9, 2019 at 7:37:09 PM UTC-8, Scott Williams wrote:
> > On Wednesday, January 9, 2019 at 8:54:53 PM UTC-6, MNLou wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, January 9, 2019 at 8:49:48 PM UTC-6, Tony wrote:
> > > > Pure gliders are not eligible for the rebate
> > >
> > > Are sustainer equipped experimental aircraft eligible?
> > >
> > > Thanks -
> > >
> > > Lou
> >
> > Also, I believe the Tn72 is not full 2020 compliant, for that even in an experimental you must use the $1900 Tn70, as far as Trig made products.
> > I wish this whole topic was simpler, or at least as Simple as I am!!
>
> Bull****. That is absolutely not true. The TN72 jn an experimental aircraft meets all requirements of 14 CFR 91.227. Absolutely clear in Trig documentation, and I've described this many times here. But don't let that stop you just saying it's not with no proof....

Jeez Darryl, such vitriol, Twice in my post I alluded to my Relative ignorance, "I believe" and "Simple as I"

[Charles Longley]

Darryl Ramm I am just curious what exactly are your qualifications to expound so expertly on avionics?

[Darryl Ramm]

On Saturday, January 12, 2019 at 7:16:55 PM UTC-8, Scott Williams wrote:
> On Friday, January 11, 2019 at 12:20:05 AM UTC-6, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > On Wednesday, January 9, 2019 at 7:37:09 PM UTC-8, Scott Williams wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, January 9, 2019 at 8:54:53 PM UTC-6, MNLou wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, January 9, 2019 at 8:49:48 PM UTC-6, Tony wrote:
> > > > > Pure gliders are not eligible for the rebate
> > > >
> > > > Are sustainer equipped experimental aircraft eligible?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks -
> > > >
> > > > Lou
> > >
> > > Also, I believe the Tn72 is not full 2020 compliant, for that even in an experimental you must use the $1900 Tn70, as far as Trig made products.
> > > I wish this whole topic was simpler, or at least as Simple as I am!!
> >
> > Bull****. That is absolutely not true. The TN72 jn an experimental aircraft meets all requirements of 14 CFR 91.227. Absolutely clear in Trig documentation, and I've described this many times here. But don't let that stop you just saying it's not with no proof....
>
> Jeez Darryl, such vitriol, Twice in my post I alluded to my Relative ignorance, "I believe" and "Simple as I"

The virtiol is because r.a.s. is full of so much misinformation on stuff including ADS-B and FLARM. And you seeming made no effort to check stuff, or saying why you believe it. And this misinformation circulates around and around again.

You could have Googled for the TN72 installation documentation. That's where vendors typically clarify the compliance specs for "meets requirements" for experimental aircraft.

In this case the manual is super clear....

11.2 FAA 91.227 Compliance
When installed in accordance with this manual and used with the Trig TT22
and Trig TT31 transponders the TN72 meets the technical requirements of FAR
91.227 and the performance requirements of the applicable TSOs.

.... that's pretty classic "meets" (but not actual TSO approved) type language to look for.

---

Why did you believe this? Is there wrong information somewhere saying this? The TN72 had a slightly confusing launch with folks (including me) confused about what their exact early claims were. And they might be confusing things with the current different marketing packaging for experimental vs type certified aircraft--I had suggested to TRIG they not do that, but they may understand the reasons better than I do. They were trying to simplify stuff there, so I emphasize with that. The TN72 in the "TN72 GPS – TABS" and "TN72 GPS – X" are the exact same actual TN72 receivers. But I could imagine how for example somebody might read about the "TN72 GPS-TABS" product info and walk away believing the TN72 can't do 2020 Compliance (it can in experimental aircraft).

[Darryl Ramm]

On Saturday, January 12, 2019 at 9:01:04 PM UTC-8, Charles Longley wrote:
> Darryl Ramm I am just curious what exactly are your qualifications to expound so expertly on avionics?

Avionics? In general? None at all.

But transponders and ADS-B and FLARM... uh background in microwave electronics research (some related tech there actually made it into radar systems). Understand how stuff works... read RTCA standards, vendor doc etc.. Interest in the adoption of transponders in gliders for safety, active in that along with many other in CA/NV, flying at Minden during the ASG-29/Hawker midair, got involved in trying to stop the pro-UAT insanity following the post midair push for UAT adoption. Worked with the Southeast Aerospace, the initial Trig distributors in the USA to get Trig transponders available to glider market resellers. Was vocal with FLARM entering the USA that the device with 1090ES In support should be what is sold, some others did mange to sneak though. Had a friend killed in a glider midair before we had FLARM in the USA. Got to know the FLARM folks and have provided some advice to them, but absolutely nothing like the herculean work that Dave Nadler did to get PowerFLARM working in the USA. Or that say Rex Mayes did to get PowerFLARM rentals to happen. Worked with different organizations on things related to glider midair and NMAC events. Helped FLARM and others with advice involved with their input to the development of TABS/TSO-C199. Provided input to Soaring Association of Canada on ADS-B technology directions in Canada. Worked to get Trig to exhibit and talk at the last SSA convention. Poke around in Stratux source code, write my own software utilities to play with stuff. Worked with Trig and Peregrine systems to get the Peregrine TN70 STC available for use in glider installs (Wings and Wheels really helped push there as well). And have helped with many TN72 and a few TN70 installs, given advice to A&Ps doing installs, helped explain things like TABS to FSDO staff etc.. helped several owners reply to FAA ADS-B non-compliance letters. Given lots of talk on transponders and ASD-B stuff to the glider community. Some parts of Cumulus Soaring web content on transponders were written by me and Eric Greenwell. Parts of Craggy Aero's web page for setting up the TN72 was written by me. In my silicon valley day job occasionally get called for input on aerospace/tech investments some that overlap with this stuff. Enough for now.. I need to go find an old transponder presentation for folks in Germany who want to use it for training...

[Darryl Ramm]

On Saturday, January 12, 2019 at 10:47:35 PM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> On Saturday, January 12, 2019 at 7:16:55 PM UTC-8, Scott Williams wrote:
> > On Friday, January 11, 2019 at 12:20:05 AM UTC-6, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, January 9, 2019 at 7:37:09 PM UTC-8, Scott Williams wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, January 9, 2019 at 8:54:53 PM UTC-6, MNLou wrote:
> > > > > On Wednesday, January 9, 2019 at 8:49:48 PM UTC-6, Tony wrote:
> > > > > > Pure gliders are not eligible for the rebate
> > > > >
> > > > > Are sustainer equipped experimental aircraft eligible?
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks -
> > > > >
> > > > > Lou
> > > >
> > > > Also, I believe the Tn72 is not full 2020 compliant, for that even in an experimental you must use the $1900 Tn70, as far as Trig made products.
> > > > I wish this whole topic was simpler, or at least as Simple as I am!!
> > >
> > > Bull****. That is absolutely not true. The TN72 jn an experimental aircraft meets all requirements of 14 CFR 91.227. Absolutely clear in Trig documentation, and I've described this many times here. But don't let that stop you just saying it's not with no proof....
> >
> > Jeez Darryl, such vitriol, Twice in my post I alluded to my Relative ignorance, "I believe" and "Simple as I"
>
> The virtiol is because r.a.s. is full of so much misinformation on stuff including ADS-B and FLARM. And you seeming made no effort to check stuff, or saying why you believe it. And this misinformation circulates around and around again.
>
> You could have Googled for the TN72 installation documentation. That's where vendors typically clarify the compliance specs for "meets requirements" for experimental aircraft.
>
> In this case the manual is super clear....
>
> 11.2 FAA 91.227 Compliance
> When installed in accordance with this manual and used with the Trig TT22
> and Trig TT31 transponders the TN72 meets the technical requirements of FAR
> 91.227 and the performance requirements of the applicable TSOs.
>
> ... that's pretty classic "meets" (but not actual TSO approved) type language to look for.
>
> ---
>
> Why did you believe this? Is there wrong information somewhere saying this? The TN72 had a slightly confusing launch with folks (including me) confused about what their exact early claims were. And they might be confusing things with the current different marketing packaging for experimental vs type certified aircraft--I had suggested to TRIG they not do that, but they may understand the reasons better than I do. They were trying to simplify stuff there, so I emphasize with that. The TN72 in the "TN72 GPS – TABS" and "TN72 GPS – X" are the exact same actual TN72 receivers. But I could imagine how for example somebody might read about the "TN72 GPS-TABS" product info and walk away believing the TN72 can't do 2020 Compliance (it can in experimental aircraft).

And I forgot. Years ago helped Max Trescott (my favorite aviation writer/podcaster) with technical content on ADS-B technology for articles in EAA Sport magazine. Helped authors on several technical articles in Soaring Magazine (Hi Andy).

[Dan Marotta]

.... And Darryl was very helpful to me in getting my TT22/TN70 system up
and running in my Stemme.

I would add that the Peregrine STC material does not address gliders
and, indeed no glider is listed in their AML (Approved Model List). I
spoke with Peregrine tech support and their position was that gliders
are pretty much on their own but, using the installation data provided
in the STC kit, it was a simple matter for me to install (under
supervision) and for my IA to endorse and sign off my log book and
prepare and send an Informational FAA Form 337 to the feds and one for
my aircraft records.Â* The flight test was simple - just go fly in rule
airspace for 30 minutes and do some maneuvering, then fill out the test
report request on line.Â* The report comes back in a matter of minutes.

As I have said before, there are (at least) two different links to
follow for the test report.Â* The link you'll likely find with a google
search will take you to the report request page but, if you're working
on the rebate, you'll need to go to a different link which is provided
with your rebate reservation.

On 1/13/2019 12:46 AM, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> On Saturday, January 12, 2019 at 10:47:35 PM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
>> On Saturday, January 12, 2019 at 7:16:55 PM UTC-8, Scott Williams wrote:
>>> On Friday, January 11, 2019 at 12:20:05 AM UTC-6, Darryl Ramm wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, January 9, 2019 at 7:37:09 PM UTC-8, Scott Williams wrote:
>>>>> On Wednesday, January 9, 2019 at 8:54:53 PM UTC-6, MNLou wrote:
>>>>>> On Wednesday, January 9, 2019 at 8:49:48 PM UTC-6, Tony wrote:
>>>>>>> Pure gliders are not eligible for the rebate
>>>>>> Are sustainer equipped experimental aircraft eligible?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks -
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lou
>>>>> Also, I believe the Tn72 is not full 2020 compliant, for that even in an experimental you must use the $1900 Tn70, as far as Trig made products.
>>>>> I wish this whole topic was simpler, or at least as Simple as I am!!
>>>> Bull****. That is absolutely not true. The TN72 jn an experimental aircraft meets all requirements of 14 CFR 91.227. Absolutely clear in Trig documentation, and I've described this many times here. But don't let that stop you just saying it's not with no proof....
>>> Jeez Darryl, such vitriol, Twice in my post I alluded to my Relative ignorance, "I believe" and "Simple as I"
>> The virtiol is because r.a.s. is full of so much misinformation on stuff including ADS-B and FLARM. And you seeming made no effort to check stuff, or saying why you believe it. And this misinformation circulates around and around again.
>>
>> You could have Googled for the TN72 installation documentation. That's where vendors typically clarify the compliance specs for "meets requirements" for experimental aircraft.
>>
>> In this case the manual is super clear....
>>
>> 11.2 FAA 91.227 Compliance
>> When installed in accordance with this manual and used with the Trig TT22
>> and Trig TT31 transponders the TN72 meets the technical requirements of FAR
>> 91.227 and the performance requirements of the applicable TSOs.
>>
>> ... that's pretty classic "meets" (but not actual TSO approved) type language to look for.
>>
>> ---
>>
>> Why did you believe this? Is there wrong information somewhere saying this? The TN72 had a slightly confusing launch with folks (including me) confused about what their exact early claims were. And they might be confusing things with the current different marketing packaging for experimental vs type certified aircraft--I had suggested to TRIG they not do that, but they may understand the reasons better than I do. They were trying to simplify stuff there, so I emphasize with that. The TN72 in the "TN72 GPS – TABS" and "TN72 GPS – X" are the exact same actual TN72 receivers. But I could imagine how for example somebody might read about the "TN72 GPS-TABS" product info and walk away believing the TN72 can't do 2020 Compliance (it can in experimental aircraft).
> And I forgot. Years ago helped Max Trescott (my favorite aviation writer/podcaster) with technical content on ADS-B technology for articles in EAA Sport magazine. Helped authors on several technical articles in Soaring Magazine (Hi Andy).

--
Dan, 5J

[Charles Longley]

There’s no such thing as an informational 337. A 337 is a 337. There’s several ways to get approved data. Not sure you guys understand the process.

[Craig Funston[_3_]]

On Monday, January 14, 2019 at 5:53:17 PM UTC-8, Charles Longley wrote:
> There’s no such thing as an informational 337. A 337 is a 337. There’s several ways to get approved data. Not sure you guys understand the process.

Charlie, the FAA has unfortunately chosen to use the 337 form to inform them of ADS-B installations, causing much confusion and consternation in the mechanic community. They have asked for these forms to go directly to OK City and not to the local FSDO. Please refer to AFS-360_2016-03-02

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgPolicy.nsf/0/1fdea629cd029a7c86257f7900601653/$FILE/AFS-360_2016-03-02.pdf

Yes, Darryl Ramm is our resident ADS-B expert. He has spent many hours working on the behalf of SSA and the US gliding community helping navigate the federal maze.

Thanks,
Craig Funston

[Charles Longley]

Craig sorry you don’t understand the FAA form 337 either.
Perhaps I should do a primer on here?

Charlie

[Charles Longley]

As an FYI that memorandum is what I used to put the Stratus Transponder in 17Z last year.

[Charles Longley]

Here’s some good reading-
https://www.faa.gov/training_testing/testing/test_guides/media/faa-g-8082-19.pdf
and
https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=cf1bc7e7199cc48ddb75eb214f0da2ab&mc=true&node=ap14.1.43_117.b&rgn=div9

[2G]

On Wednesday, January 9, 2019 at 7:37:09 PM UTC-8, Scott Williams wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 9, 2019 at 8:54:53 PM UTC-6, MNLou wrote:
> > On Wednesday, January 9, 2019 at 8:49:48 PM UTC-6, Tony wrote:
> > > Pure gliders are not eligible for the rebate
> >
> > Are sustainer equipped experimental aircraft eligible?
> >
> > Thanks -
> >
> > Lou
>
> Also, I believe the Tn72 is not full 2020 compliant, for that even in an experimental you must use the $1900 Tn70, as far as Trig made products.
> I wish this whole topic was simpler, or at least as Simple as I am!!

Scott, you, are in a word, wrong. This is from Trig's website (https://www.trig-avionics.com/support/support-faqs/ads-b-faqs/):

In a certified aircraft you will require a certified TSO C145 position source that meets the requirements of AC20-165 Appendix 2 – such as the Trig TN70.

Trig has an FAA STC program that covers other GPS units. This includes Garmin 400 and 500 series WAAS GPS navigators which can be used with a Trig TT22 or TT31 transponder.

Light Sport, Experimental Aircraft and Gliders can use the TN72 as an approved position source in FAA 2020 rule airspace. This product is certified and meets TSO C199 but is not approved for certified aircraft in the U.S. flying in 2020 rule ADS-B airspace.

[Darryl Ramm]

On Monday, January 14, 2019 at 8:45:35 PM UTC-8, Charles Longley wrote:
> Here’s some good reading-
> https://www.faa.gov/training_testing/testing/test_guides/media/faa-g-8082-19.pdf
> and
> https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=cf1bc7e7199cc48ddb75eb214f0da2ab&mc=true&node=ap14.1.43_117.b&rgn=div9

Not sure what you point really is. An A&P wishing to do an ADS-B Out install in a type certified glider has to just follow AFS-360. They just have to do the minimum of what is described there. As long as the installation is a minor alteration. And In almost all cases in gliders it hopefully is.

An A&P can do whatever else they believe they need to do to comply with regulations if they determine an install is a major alteration and needs further approval. But that can quickly create problems, starting with there is no STC for any install of any transponder in any glider. And the TN70 STC is also not a STC with any gliders on the AML... it's used purely for establishing the pairing of the TT22 and TN70 is approved as required by AFS-360. There are other options than a STC for approval but that should not .be required.

A recent thing I got involved with at the request of Pereguine, the STC holder for the TN70 STC, was to help an FAA DAR out with understand the paperwork/regulations for installation of a TT22+TN70, in a vintage power aircraft with no engine driven system, that FAA DAR was perfectly OK with everything I have basically represented on r.a.s., as was his FSDO. So I am pretty comfortable I have a good enough handle on this and how easy a TN70 install and it's paperwork should be in a typical type certified glider.

If you don't like the associated 337 in this process being called an "advisory 337", then hey you can call it whatever you want. But that's the language I've been using to try to make it clear the STC involved here is not being used as the basis for an installation approval.... and to try to avoid things like folks approaching a FSDO and assuming these are necessarily major alterations and the STC is going to be the the basis for that major alteration.... the poor FSDO folks can then start assuming it is because the folks talking to them are saying it is. Doing this has caused pain for some type certified glider owners trying to get 2020 Compliant ADS-B out installs happening, and I am tying to help other avoid those mistakes.

And the offer is there for anybody looking to do an TN70 install I can help talk them and/or their A&P thought this if they need to, but AFS-360 is hopefully clear enough. I was happy recently when one of the busiest glider A&P IA's I had helped understanding this stuff helped walk another glider repair shop though the process. Happy that the word is getting out here, and more ADS-B Out install are happening, which is great for safety for folks in busy airspace.

[Charles Longley]

Darryl I agree with you that you can use a pairing that has been approved by a STC, TC or ATC on another aircraft for approval basis on an aircraft that is not on an AML per the MOU. I used the MOU to put a Stratus transponder in a Pawnee that isn’t on the AML. What I don’t agree with is the term “informational 337.�

If you review the two documents I put a link up for you’ll see that there is several avenues for finding approved data. As an IA I can’t approve data. What I can do is determine if data is approved by someone else. (STC, DER, 43.13, MOU, etc) I then sign a 337 to attest to that fact. The 337 then gets sent to the nice folks at FAA registration. Where it gets put in the aircrafts records and pretty much never sees the light of day until the airplane crashes or someone buys it. My ASI is typically never involved unless I have a question. Years ago (before I became an IA) they had to approve every 337 but they got to busy with the airlines. The onus is now on the lowly IA.

I hope this makes my position clear.

[Dan Marotta]

Bad choice of words, I guess.Â* The 337 simply said (paraphrasing, since
it's at the hangar, not home), "Performed the installation in accordance
with STC number xxx, Installation Manual."Â* Not much more than that.

On 1/14/2019 6:53 PM, Charles Longley wrote:
> There’s no such thing as an informational 337. A 337 is a 337. There’s several ways to get approved data. Not sure you guys understand the process.

--
Dan, 5J

[Charles Longley]

On Tuesday, January 15, 2019 at 8:22:10 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Bad choice of words, I guess.Â* The 337 simply said (paraphrasing, since
> it's at the hangar, not home), "Performed the installation in accordance
> with STC number xxx, Installation Manual."Â* Not much more than that.
>
> On 1/14/2019 6:53 PM, Charles Longley wrote:
> > There’s no such thing as an informational 337. A 337 is a 337. There’s several ways to get approved data. Not sure you guys understand the process.
>
> --
> Dan, 5J

Yeah no problem. It just hurts my eyes when I see someone call a 337 informational or advisory...

[Scott Williams]

On Tuesday, January 15, 2019 at 12:11:55 AM UTC-6, 2G wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 9, 2019 at 7:37:09 PM UTC-8, Scott Williams wrote:
> > On Wednesday, January 9, 2019 at 8:54:53 PM UTC-6, MNLou wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, January 9, 2019 at 8:49:48 PM UTC-6, Tony wrote:
> > > > Pure gliders are not eligible for the rebate
> > >
> > > Are sustainer equipped experimental aircraft eligible?
> > >
> > > Thanks -
> > >
> > > Lou
> >
> > Also, I believe the Tn72 is not full 2020 compliant, for that even in an experimental you must use the $1900 Tn70, as far as Trig made products.
> > I wish this whole topic was simpler, or at least as Simple as I am!!
>
> Scott, you, are in a word, wrong. This is from Trig's website (https://www.trig-avionics.com/support/support-faqs/ads-b-faqs/):
>
> In a certified aircraft you will require a certified TSO C145 position source that meets the requirements of AC20-165 Appendix 2 – such as the Trig TN70.
>
> Trig has an FAA STC program that covers other GPS units. This includes Garmin 400 and 500 series WAAS GPS navigators which can be used with a Trig TT22 or TT31 transponder.
>
> Light Sport, Experimental Aircraft and Gliders can use the TN72 as an approved position source in FAA 2020 rule airspace. This product is certified and meets TSO C199 but is not approved for certified aircraft in the U.S. flying in 2020 rule ADS-B airspace.

Uh Yeah, Darryl pretty much covered that.
Thanks.

[Charles Longley]

On Tuesday, January 15, 2019 at 7:07:33 PM UTC-8, Scott Williams wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 15, 2019 at 12:11:55 AM UTC-6, 2G wrote:
> > On Wednesday, January 9, 2019 at 7:37:09 PM UTC-8, Scott Williams wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, January 9, 2019 at 8:54:53 PM UTC-6, MNLou wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, January 9, 2019 at 8:49:48 PM UTC-6, Tony wrote:
> > > > > Pure gliders are not eligible for the rebate
> > > >
> > > > Are sustainer equipped experimental aircraft eligible?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks -
> > > >
> > > > Lou
> > >
> > > Also, I believe the Tn72 is not full 2020 compliant, for that even in an experimental you must use the $1900 Tn70, as far as Trig made products.
> > > I wish this whole topic was simpler, or at least as Simple as I am!!
> >
> > Scott, you, are in a word, wrong. This is from Trig's website (https://www.trig-avionics.com/support/support-faqs/ads-b-faqs/):
> >
> > In a certified aircraft you will require a certified TSO C145 position source that meets the requirements of AC20-165 Appendix 2 – such as the Trig TN70.
> >
> > Trig has an FAA STC program that covers other GPS units. This includes Garmin 400 and 500 series WAAS GPS navigators which can be used with a Trig TT22 or TT31 transponder.
> >
> > Light Sport, Experimental Aircraft and Gliders can use the TN72 as an approved position source in FAA 2020 rule airspace. This product is certified and meets TSO C199 but is not approved for certified aircraft in the U.S.. flying in 2020 rule ADS-B airspace.
>
> Uh Yeah, Darryl pretty much covered that.
> Thanks.
Oooh snap you told me!!

[Scott Williams]

On Wednesday, January 16, 2019 at 3:30:33 PM UTC-6, Charles Longley wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 15, 2019 at 7:07:33 PM UTC-8, Scott Williams wrote:
> > On Tuesday, January 15, 2019 at 12:11:55 AM UTC-6, 2G wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, January 9, 2019 at 7:37:09 PM UTC-8, Scott Williams wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, January 9, 2019 at 8:54:53 PM UTC-6, MNLou wrote:
> > > > > On Wednesday, January 9, 2019 at 8:49:48 PM UTC-6, Tony wrote:
> > > > > > Pure gliders are not eligible for the rebate
> > > > >
> > > > > Are sustainer equipped experimental aircraft eligible?
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks -
> > > > >
> > > > > Lou
> > > >
> > > > Also, I believe the Tn72 is not full 2020 compliant, for that even in an experimental you must use the $1900 Tn70, as far as Trig made products.
> > > > I wish this whole topic was simpler, or at least as Simple as I am!!
> > >
> > > Scott, you, are in a word, wrong. This is from Trig's website (https://www.trig-avionics.com/support/support-faqs/ads-b-faqs/):
> > >
> > > In a certified aircraft you will require a certified TSO C145 position source that meets the requirements of AC20-165 Appendix 2 – such as the Trig TN70.
> > >
> > > Trig has an FAA STC program that covers other GPS units. This includes Garmin 400 and 500 series WAAS GPS navigators which can be used with a Trig TT22 or TT31 transponder.
> > >
> > > Light Sport, Experimental Aircraft and Gliders can use the TN72 as an approved position source in FAA 2020 rule airspace. This product is certified and meets TSO C199 but is not approved for certified aircraft in the U..S. flying in 2020 rule ADS-B airspace.
> >
> > Uh Yeah, Darryl pretty much covered that.
> > Thanks.
> Oooh snap you told me!!

Hey Charles, sorry about the post sequence oops, I was responding to 2G's dig, Totally not responding to your 337 comment.

[Charles Longley]

No problem Scott. Thought it was directed at me.

[Scott Williams]

On Wednesday, January 16, 2019 at 4:42:17 PM UTC-6, Charles Longley wrote:
> No problem Scott. Thought it was directed at me.

My apologies, I thought I had selected "Show quoted text", but it did not display.