Refinishing Ventus b Fuselage

[Richard Pfiffner[_2_]]

Pictures and process for refinishing a ventus b fuselage. Work in progress pictures and process as work is completed.

http://www.craggyaero.com/ventus.htm

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[Roy B.]

Thanks Richard - very interesting. I would like to know how much time (labor hours) each step is taking.
ROY

[Darryl Ramm]

On Friday, October 12, 2018 at 6:16:35 PM UTC-7, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> Pictures and process for refinishing a ventus b fuselage. Work in progress pictures and process as work is completed.
>
> http://www.craggyaero.com/ventus.htm
>
> Richard
> www.craggyaero.com

Jeez Richard the shop floor is shinier than many gelcoat finishes :-)

[Dennis Vreeken]

Brings back bad memories. Have fun and good luck Richard !

[Richard Pfiffner[_2_]]

On Friday, October 12, 2018 at 7:09:15 PM UTC-7, Roy B. wrote:
> Thanks Richard - very interesting. I would like to know how much time (labor hours) each step is taking.
> ROY

Roy I will add the time for each step.

thanks

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

I will guess it was painted/epoxy coated during the fuselage sanding.
Yes, it's shiny.

[Richard Pfiffner[_2_]]

On Friday, October 12, 2018 at 7:14:55 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> On Friday, October 12, 2018 at 6:16:35 PM UTC-7, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> > Pictures and process for refinishing a ventus b fuselage. Work in progress pictures and process as work is completed.
> >
> > http://www.craggyaero.com/ventus.htm
> >
> > Richard
> > www.craggyaero.com
>
> Jeez Richard the shop floor is shinier than many gelcoat finishes :-)

Darryl,

That is water on the floor after much sanding therapy and washing the floor

[[email protected]]

There are no "small aircraft" when holding a sander, buffer or can of wax.

[Richard Pfiffner[_2_]]

On Saturday, October 13, 2018 at 8:52:53 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> There are no "small aircraft" when holding a sander, buffer or can of wax.

Tools used so far added.

http://www.craggyaero.com/ventus.htm

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[Brad[_2_]]

On Friday, October 12, 2018 at 6:16:35 PM UTC-7, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> Pictures and process for refinishing a ventus b fuselage. Work in progress pictures and process as work is completed.
>
> http://www.craggyaero.com/ventus.htm
>
> Richard
> www.craggyaero.com

looking really good. the Tetra will need a fuselage face lift in the next few years. not a total gel/paint removal like you've done, but still a huge amount of labor.

Brad

[Richard Pfiffner[_2_]]

On Saturday, October 13, 2018 at 4:01:37 PM UTC-7, Brad wrote:
> On Friday, October 12, 2018 at 6:16:35 PM UTC-7, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> > Pictures and process for refinishing a ventus b fuselage. Work in progress pictures and process as work is completed.
> >
> > http://www.craggyaero.com/ventus.htm
> >
> > Richard
> > www.craggyaero.com
>
> looking really good. the Tetra will need a fuselage face lift in the next few years. not a total gel/paint removal like you've done, but still a huge amount of labor.
>
> Brad

Rolled on two coats of Duratec Vinyl ester surfacing primer, sanding tomorrow.


Pictures:
http://www.craggyaero.com/ventus.htm

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[Mike C]

On Monday, October 15, 2018 at 5:54:39 PM UTC-6, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> On Saturday, October 13, 2018 at 4:01:37 PM UTC-7, Brad wrote:
> > On Friday, October 12, 2018 at 6:16:35 PM UTC-7, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> > > Pictures and process for refinishing a ventus b fuselage. Work in progress pictures and process as work is completed.
> > >
> > > http://www.craggyaero.com/ventus.htm
> > >
> > > Richard
> > > www.craggyaero.com
> >
> > looking really good. the Tetra will need a fuselage face lift in the next few years. not a total gel/paint removal like you've done, but still a huge amount of labor.
> >
> > Brad
>
> Rolled on two coats of Duratec Vinyl ester surfacing primer, sanding tomorrow.
>
>
> Pictures:
> http://www.craggyaero.com/ventus.htm
>
> Richard
> www.craggyaero.com

Hi Richard,

Thank you for documenting this.

Watching with interest, I may do the same this winter.

How smooth/even was the primer after rolling, much different than spraying? I rolled marine PU on a trailer and it flowed very nicely.

What will you be using as a color/top coat?

Thanks,

Mike Carris

[2G]

On Monday, October 15, 2018 at 4:54:39 PM UTC-7, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> On Saturday, October 13, 2018 at 4:01:37 PM UTC-7, Brad wrote:
> > On Friday, October 12, 2018 at 6:16:35 PM UTC-7, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> > > Pictures and process for refinishing a ventus b fuselage. Work in progress pictures and process as work is completed.
> > >
> > > http://www.craggyaero.com/ventus.htm
> > >
> > > Richard
> > > www.craggyaero.com
> >
> > looking really good. the Tetra will need a fuselage face lift in the next few years. not a total gel/paint removal like you've done, but still a huge amount of labor.
> >
> > Brad
>
> Rolled on two coats of Duratec Vinyl ester surfacing primer, sanding tomorrow.
>
>
> Pictures:
> http://www.craggyaero.com/ventus.htm
>
> Richard
> www.craggyaero.com

Are you going to finish with the Duratec high gloss coating? Has this ever been used on gliders before?

Tom

[Ian[_2_]]

On 2018/10/16 01:54, Richard Pfiffner wrote:

> Rolled on two coats of Duratec Vinyl ester surfacing primer, sanding tomorrow.
> Pictures:
> http://www.craggyaero.com/ventus.htm

Nicely documented project. I hope you don't get "arithmetic fatigue"
adding up all the hours.

Please advise the weight of the fuselage before you started verses that
when you finished. Also the moment arm balance for the rudder, before
and after. Be kind to the next owner and make sure it is fully
documented in the log books. This is always the "unknown" when looking
at a refinished glider.

[[email protected]]

On Monday, October 15, 2018 at 10:57:20 PM UTC-7, Ian wrote:
> On 2018/10/16 01:54, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
>
> > Rolled on two coats of Duratec Vinyl ester surfacing primer, sanding tomorrow.
> > Pictures:
> > http://www.craggyaero.com/ventus.htm
>
> Nicely documented project. I hope you don't get "arithmetic fatigue"
> adding up all the hours.
>
> Please advise the weight of the fuselage before you started verses that
> when you finished. Also the moment arm balance for the rudder, before
> and after. Be kind to the next owner and make sure it is fully
> documented in the log books. This is always the "unknown" when looking
> at a refinished glider.

is refinishing a glider considered 'preventative maintenance'?

[[email protected]]

On Monday, October 15, 2018 at 9:49:09 PM UTC-4, Mike C wrote:
> On Monday, October 15, 2018 at 5:54:39 PM UTC-6, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> > On Saturday, October 13, 2018 at 4:01:37 PM UTC-7, Brad wrote:
> > > On Friday, October 12, 2018 at 6:16:35 PM UTC-7, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> > > > Pictures and process for refinishing a ventus b fuselage. Work in progress pictures and process as work is completed.
> > > >
> > > > http://www.craggyaero.com/ventus.htm
> > > >
> > > > Richard
> > > > www.craggyaero.com
> > >
> > > looking really good. the Tetra will need a fuselage face lift in the next few years. not a total gel/paint removal like you've done, but still a huge amount of labor.
> > >
> > > Brad
> >
> > Rolled on two coats of Duratec Vinyl ester surfacing primer, sanding tomorrow.
> >
> >
> > Pictures:
> > http://www.craggyaero.com/ventus.htm
> >
> > Richard
> > www.craggyaero.com
>
> Hi Richard,
>
> Thank you for documenting this.
>
> Watching with interest, I may do the same this winter.
>
> How smooth/even was the primer after rolling, much different than spraying? I rolled marine PU on a trailer and it flowed very nicely.
>
> What will you be using as a color/top coat?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mike Carris

Primer is rolled on to force it into the million pinholes left after sanding. If the first coats are sprayed many pinholes are bridged and show up again after the first sanding. How smooth it is doesn't matter too much.
UH

[Mike C]

On Tuesday, October 16, 2018 at 6:34:59 AM UTC-6, wrote:
> On Monday, October 15, 2018 at 9:49:09 PM UTC-4, Mike C wrote:
> > On Monday, October 15, 2018 at 5:54:39 PM UTC-6, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> > > On Saturday, October 13, 2018 at 4:01:37 PM UTC-7, Brad wrote:
> > > > On Friday, October 12, 2018 at 6:16:35 PM UTC-7, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> > > > > Pictures and process for refinishing a ventus b fuselage. Work in progress pictures and process as work is completed.
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.craggyaero.com/ventus.htm
> > > > >
> > > > > Richard
> > > > > www.craggyaero.com
> > > >
> > > > looking really good. the Tetra will need a fuselage face lift in the next few years. not a total gel/paint removal like you've done, but still a huge amount of labor.
> > > >
> > > > Brad
> > >
> > > Rolled on two coats of Duratec Vinyl ester surfacing primer, sanding tomorrow.
> > >
> > >
> > > Pictures:
> > > http://www.craggyaero.com/ventus.htm
> > >
> > > Richard
> > > www.craggyaero.com
> >
> > Hi Richard,
> >
> > Thank you for documenting this.
> >
> > Watching with interest, I may do the same this winter.
> >
> > How smooth/even was the primer after rolling, much different than spraying? I rolled marine PU on a trailer and it flowed very nicely.
> >
> > What will you be using as a color/top coat?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Mike Carris
>
> Primer is rolled on to force it into the million pinholes left after sanding. If the first coats are sprayed many pinholes are bridged and show up again after the first sanding. How smooth it is doesn't matter too much.
> UH

Thanks for telling me what does not matter to me. I had no idea!

[Richard Pfiffner[_2_]]

On Monday, October 15, 2018 at 6:49:09 PM UTC-7, Mike C wrote:
> On Monday, October 15, 2018 at 5:54:39 PM UTC-6, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> > On Saturday, October 13, 2018 at 4:01:37 PM UTC-7, Brad wrote:
> > > On Friday, October 12, 2018 at 6:16:35 PM UTC-7, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> > > > Pictures and process for refinishing a ventus b fuselage. Work in progress pictures and process as work is completed.
> > > >
> > > > http://www.craggyaero.com/ventus.htm
> > > >
> > > > Richard
> > > > www.craggyaero.com
> > >
> > > looking really good. the Tetra will need a fuselage face lift in the next few years. not a total gel/paint removal like you've done, but still a huge amount of labor.
> > >
> > > Brad
> >
> > Rolled on two coats of Duratec Vinyl ester surfacing primer, sanding tomorrow.
> >
> >
> > Pictures:
> > http://www.craggyaero.com/ventus.htm
> >
> > Richard
> > www.craggyaero.com
>
> Hi Richard,
>
> Thank you for documenting this.
>
> Watching with interest, I may do the same this winter.
>
> How smooth/even was the primer after rolling, much different than spraying? I rolled marine PU on a trailer and it flowed very nicely.
>
> What will you be using as a color/top coat?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mike Carris

It will probably take several coats of surfacer, it does not matter if it is rough. Rolling on eliminates many pin holes. I will let you know after therapy sanding today.

[Richard Pfiffner[_2_]]

On Monday, October 15, 2018 at 10:57:20 PM UTC-7, Ian wrote:
> On 2018/10/16 01:54, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
>
> > Rolled on two coats of Duratec Vinyl ester surfacing primer, sanding tomorrow.
> > Pictures:
> > http://www.craggyaero.com/ventus.htm
>
> Nicely documented project. I hope you don't get "arithmetic fatigue"
> adding up all the hours.
>
> Please advise the weight of the fuselage before you started verses that
> when you finished. Also the moment arm balance for the rudder, before
> and after. Be kind to the next owner and make sure it is fully
> documented in the log books. This is always the "unknown" when looking
> at a refinished glider.

Finish will be

PPG Shopline JP202 Surfacer and JAU Acrylic Urethane.

I used this on my wings 16 years ago. It was tied out at Siskiyou County Airport all summer for these years. Other than minor chips it held up amazingly well.

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[Richard Pfiffner[_2_]]

On Tuesday, October 16, 2018 at 2:28:10 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Monday, October 15, 2018 at 10:57:20 PM UTC-7, Ian wrote:
> > On 2018/10/16 01:54, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> >
> > > Rolled on two coats of Duratec Vinyl ester surfacing primer, sanding tomorrow.
> > > Pictures:
> > > http://www.craggyaero.com/ventus.htm
> >
> > Nicely documented project. I hope you don't get "arithmetic fatigue"
> > adding up all the hours.
> >
> > Please advise the weight of the fuselage before you started verses that
> > when you finished. Also the moment arm balance for the rudder, before
> > and after. Be kind to the next owner and make sure it is fully
> > documented in the log books. This is always the "unknown" when looking
> > at a refinished glider.
>
> is refinishing a glider considered 'preventative maintenance'?

Don't know.

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[Richard Pfiffner[_2_]]

On Monday, October 15, 2018 at 10:57:20 PM UTC-7, Ian wrote:
> On 2018/10/16 01:54, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
>
> > Rolled on two coats of Duratec Vinyl ester surfacing primer, sanding tomorrow.
> > Pictures:
> > http://www.craggyaero.com/ventus.htm
>
> Nicely documented project. I hope you don't get "arithmetic fatigue"
> adding up all the hours.
>
> Please advise the weight of the fuselage before you started verses that
> when you finished. Also the moment arm balance for the rudder, before
> and after. Be kind to the next owner and make sure it is fully
> documented in the log books. This is always the "unknown" when looking
> at a refinished glider.

I have all the weights before the refinish.

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[[email protected]]

What did you mean by this?

"6 hrs Epoxy and glass beads to fair vertical stabilizer and rudder."

Were you filling low spots, or did you build up a lip at the trailing edge of the vertical stabilizer to make a fairing to cover the leading edge of the rudder?

Thank you for documenting this project. I prefer to soar, but I also love working on gliders and may take on a refinish project someday. Just like teaching the next generation to fly, we need to spread this skill too.

-Doug.

Â*

[Richard Pfiffner[_2_]]

On Tuesday, October 16, 2018 at 10:05:37 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> What did you mean by this?
>
> "6 hrs Epoxy and glass beads to fair vertical stabilizer and rudder."
>
> Were you filling low spots, or did you build up a lip at the trailing edge of the vertical stabilizer to make a fairing to cover the leading edge of the rudder?
>
> Thank you for documenting this project. I prefer to soar, but I also love working on gliders and may take on a refinish project someday. Just like teaching the next generation to fly, we need to spread this skill too.
>
> -Doug.
>
> Â*

Faired the surface with epoxy and glass beads. When you takeoff the coating you will find not all is flat.


Richard
www.craggyaeo.com

[[email protected]]

> > Primer is rolled on to force it into the million pinholes left after sanding. If the first coats are sprayed many pinholes are bridged and show up again after the first sanding. How smooth it is doesn't matter too much.
> > UH
>
> Thanks for telling me what does not matter to me. I had no idea!

I assisted UH in refinishing my ASW 24 wings last winter. I, too, was a little concerned with rolling anything on the wings we had so carefully templated before we started. Surely spraying was necessary to get the accurate profile we were after.

He's right; the rolling imperfections sanded out relatively quickly. I'm not sure how many more pinholes would have shown up if he hadn't been so diligent about forcing the primer-filler into the structure. But the relatively few that remained were a pain to touch up individually, especially as we kept finding more at each subsequent stage. The finished wings justified his approach and after three long contests this year, I couldn't be happier with the performance.

Chip Bearden

[Richard Pfiffner[_2_]]

On Tuesday, October 16, 2018 at 1:19:04 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > > Primer is rolled on to force it into the million pinholes left after sanding. If the first coats are sprayed many pinholes are bridged and show up again after the first sanding. How smooth it is doesn't matter too much..
> > > UH
> >
> > Thanks for telling me what does not matter to me. I had no idea!
>
> I assisted UH in refinishing my ASW 24 wings last winter. I, too, was a little concerned with rolling anything on the wings we had so carefully templated before we started. Surely spraying was necessary to get the accurate profile we were after.
>
> He's right; the rolling imperfections sanded out relatively quickly. I'm not sure how many more pinholes would have shown up if he hadn't been so diligent about forcing the primer-filler into the structure. But the relatively few that remained were a pain to touch up individually, especially as we kept finding more at each subsequent stage. The finished wings justified his approach and after three long contests this year, I couldn't be happier with the performance.
>
> Chip Bearden

More progress, sanding next step spray 1 coat of vinyl ester surfacer.


http://www.craggyaero.com/ventus.htm

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[Ian[_2_]]

On 2018/10/17 22:33, Richard Pfiffner wrote:

> More progress, sanding next step spray 1 coat of vinyl ester surfacer.

Are you sanding wet or dry?
How do you keep the floor so clean?

And when do you find time to spend on RAS ;-)

[Richard Pfiffner[_2_]]

On Thursday, October 18, 2018 at 12:41:56 PM UTC-7, Ian wrote:
> On 2018/10/17 22:33, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
>
> > More progress, sanding next step spray 1 coat of vinyl ester surfacer.
>
> Are you sanding wet or dry?
> How do you keep the floor so clean?
>
> And when do you find time to spend on RAS ;-)

Sanding dry, vacuum up the floor.

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, October 18, 2018 at 1:07:47 PM UTC-7, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> On Thursday, October 18, 2018 at 12:41:56 PM UTC-7, Ian wrote:
> > On 2018/10/17 22:33, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> >
> > > More progress, sanding next step spray 1 coat of vinyl ester surfacer.
> >
> > Are you sanding wet or dry?
> > How do you keep the floor so clean?
> >
> > And when do you find time to spend on RAS ;-)
>
> Sanding dry, vacuum up the floor.
>
> Richard
> www.craggyaero.com

Richard, please don't throw away the fuselage mount/rotating system before checking with me? I might do mine someday...
Jim

[Richard Pfiffner[_2_]]

On Thursday, October 18, 2018 at 1:27:57 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Thursday, October 18, 2018 at 1:07:47 PM UTC-7, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> > On Thursday, October 18, 2018 at 12:41:56 PM UTC-7, Ian wrote:
> > > On 2018/10/17 22:33, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> > >
> > > > More progress, sanding next step spray 1 coat of vinyl ester surfacer.
> > >
> > > Are you sanding wet or dry?
> > > How do you keep the floor so clean?
> > >
> > > And when do you find time to spend on RAS ;-)
> >
> > Sanding dry, vacuum up the floor.
> >
> > Richard
> > www.craggyaero.com
>
> Richard, please don't throw away the fuselage mount/rotating system before checking with me? I might do mine someday...
> Jim

More progress sprayed hopefull the last coat of vinyl ester surfacing primer. Therapy sanding tomorrow.

http://www.craggyaero.com/ventus.htm

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[POPS]

;976901']Pictures and process for refinishing a ventus b fuselage. Work in progress pictures and process as work is completed.

http://www.craggyaero.com/ventus.htm

Richard
www.craggyaero.com


Yo, that's a great pic log. I know you said you'd never do it, but when your all finished you could roll your old trusty-rusty all-terrain tow vehicle in there, hook it onto that lazy-susan contraption and put the spit shine to that sucker!
Just think how Gooood yud look coming and going!
Just think about it...

[Papa3[_2_]]

My shoulders ache just reading this.

[Richard Pfiffner[_2_]]

On Tuesday, October 23, 2018 at 5:43:08 AM UTC-7, POPS wrote:
> 'Richard Pfiffner[_2_ Wrote:
> > ;976901']Pictures and process for refinishing a ventus b fuselage. Work
> > in progress pictures and process as work is completed.
> >
> > http://www.craggyaero.com/ventus.htm
> >
> > Richard
> > www.craggyaero.com
>
>
> Yo, that's a great pic log. I know you said you'd never do it, but when
> your all finished you could roll your old trusty-rusty all-terrain tow
> vehicle in there, hook it onto that lazy-susan contraption and put the
> spit shine to that sucker!
> Just think how Gooood yud look coming and going!
> Just think about it...
>
>
>
>
> --
> POPS

Previa has a new paint job already. 441,236 miles replaced the right door handle, never changed transmission fluid. changed spark plugs and engine oil.

On to 500K

[Nick Kennedy[_3_]]

I've always wondered if someone who wanted to create make a business refinishing gliders , here in the USA, make a go of it. It seems to me its a lot of semi skilled monotonous labor.
I've employed many Mexicans that are Really good with there hands and produce high quality work. And they want to work , show up everyday rain or snow or shine. These guys work for 15-17/hr here in Telluride.
I've told Craggy I can send him some help when he gets tired but so far he seems to keep moving forward on his own!

[Charles Longley]

Ask that Kingair 350 owner how he liked having the rivet heads sanded off by semiskilled laborerers a few years ago. The airplane was totaled!

[Nick Kennedy[_3_]]

Well, most people, especially new at the job, need to be supervised, Thats why there are supervisors and managers.

[John Seaborn (A8)]

Nick, the refinish question is a large problem for an aging fleet of gliders with gelcoat. That club GROB which is worth about $30,000 but needs refinishing will cost around $20,000 to refinish commercially if the club cannot do it using members sweat equity. Same with other aging gliders with gelcoat. There has to be a better way in which a single company with the right tools (think standing robot) could specialize in this type of refinish at a lower cost structure. Hats off to Richard for documenting his refinish project. There used to be a company in Eastern Europe that did refinish and refurbishment of older gliders. Anyone know if they are still in business?

[Dan Daly[_2_]]

On Tuesday, October 23, 2018 at 2:56:36 PM UTC-4, John Seaborn (A8) wrote:
> Nick, the refinish question is a large problem for an aging fleet of gliders with gelcoat. That club GROB which is worth about $30,000 but needs refinishing will cost around $20,000 to refinish commercially if the club cannot do it using members sweat equity. Same with other aging gliders with gelcoat. There has to be a better way in which a single company with the right tools (think standing robot) could specialize in this type of refinish at a lower cost structure. Hats off to Richard for documenting his refinish project. There used to be a company in Eastern Europe that did refinish and refurbishment of older gliders. Anyone know if they are still in business?

http://refinish.pl/en

[Papa3[_2_]]

On Tuesday, October 23, 2018 at 11:49:08 AM UTC-4, Nick Kennedy wrote:
> I've always wondered if someone who wanted to create make a business refinishing gliders , here in the USA, make a go of it. It seems to me its a lot of semi skilled monotonous labor.
> I've employed many Mexicans that are Really good with there hands and produce high quality work. And they want to work , show up everyday rain or snow or shine. These guys work for 15-17/hr here in Telluride.
> I've told Craggy I can send him some help when he gets tired but so far he seems to keep moving forward on his own!

Hey Nick,

It's an excellent question - some of us who have done more than 1 refinish have had a lot of time to ponder this question in the middle of every 4 hour sanding session :-)

Quick back of the envelope would be something like this:

- Routine full refinish of a standard class glider for a shop with the right tools, process and skills is around 450 hours (just as a baseline - YMMV)
- Rough SWAG suggests 25% skilled 75% un/semi-skilled
- Figure you want to charge the skilled labor at $60/hr and the un/semi-skilled at $25/hr (note - assume the owner/operator is the skilled guy/gal and that there is some margin on the un-skilled rate that goes to him/her as well)
- At those ratios and rates the labor for a refinish would be about:
* $6750 for the high-skilled
* $8500 for the un/semi-skilled
* Total labor around $15K +/-
- Add in another $5000 for materials and consumables, shop charges, other fixed costs
- You're at a $20K refinish +/- a few percent.
- You can argue around the margins a bit (say bill the unskilled out at $18/hr), but it's not going to end up with a $10K number.

Kind of explains why the only people refinishing 1st and 2nd generation glass are either DIY owners or clubs.

P3

[AS]

Anyone know if they are still in business?
>
> http://refinish.pl/en

https://www.aerospool.sk/index.php/en/2014-09-19-06-19-48/repaint-repair-of-gliders/repaint-repair-of-gliders.html

[Nick Kennedy[_3_]]

P3
Thank you for the cost breakout. That 450 hour hurtle is a high one. I didn't realize it was so high, I would have guessed half that to 2/3rds of that 450 number.
AS
I contacted both company's on your posting requested a quote for shipping from the East Coast USA and a complete exterior refinish on my LS3a.
I'll report back on what I find out at today's rates.
Luckily my 1980 LS3a is still in good shape gelcoat wise, I keep it waxed and hope for the best.

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, October 23, 2018 at 2:56:36 PM UTC-4, John Seaborn (A8) wrote:
> Nick, the refinish question is a large problem for an aging fleet of gliders with gelcoat. That club GROB which is worth about $30,000 but needs refinishing will cost around $20,000 to refinish commercially if the club cannot do it using members sweat equity. Same with other aging gliders with gelcoat. There has to be a better way in which a single company with the right tools (think standing robot) could specialize in this type of refinish at a lower cost structure. Hats off to Richard for documenting his refinish project. There used to be a company in Eastern Europe that did refinish and refurbishment of older gliders. Anyone know if they are still in business?

"Going" rate(what people have been paying) is about $27k for a 15 meter glider. That would put the Grob at more like $35k at the same shop.
UH

[Eric Munk]

At 18:56 23 October 2018, John Seaborn A8 wrote:

> There used to be a company in Eastern Europe that did refinish and
>ref=
>urbishment of older gliders. Anyone know if they are still in business?


There's a fair few companies very active in refinishing gliders, in Eastern
Europe. Prices vary though, as does quality.

[Nick Kennedy[_3_]]

Those Egyptians built those pyramids with slave labor.
We need slaves and we need them now!

[Nick Kennedy[_3_]]

27K to 35K for a refinish?!
Jeez the Fleet is in trouble, who's got that kind of money?

[Richard Pfiffner[_2_]]

On Wednesday, October 24, 2018 at 5:39:19 PM UTC-7, Nick Kennedy wrote:
> 27K to 35K for a refinish?!
> Jeez the Fleet is in trouble, who's got that kind of money?

Sprayed hopefully the last coat of Vinyl Ester Fairing Primer.
Material specifications on the website.

http://www.craggyaero.com/ventus.htm

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, October 24, 2018 at 8:39:19 PM UTC-4, Nick Kennedy wrote:
> 27K to 35K for a refinish?!
> Jeez the Fleet is in trouble, who's got that kind of money?

Ya think?
That is why I have helped one local club to get up to speed on refinishing their ships as club projects. They are on their third project this year.
Our club refinished our '21 a few years ago..
Another club in our area is going to give it a shot this year with support from P3 and myself.
UH

[Ron Gleason]

On Wednesday, 24 October 2018 18:37:37 UTC-6, Nick Kennedy wrote:
> Those Egyptians built those pyramids with slave labor.
> We need slaves and we need them now!

Are you volunteering your son?

[Tango Whisky]

Le jeudi 25 octobre 2018 02:39:19 UTC+2, Nick Kennedy a écritÂ*:
> 27K to 35K for a refinish?!
> Jeez the Fleet is in trouble, who's got that kind of money?

We've just got back one of our LS4 from Slovenia. PU + interior + €3000 of repair come up to €18000.

[Frank Whiteley]

On Thursday, October 25, 2018 at 7:03:44 AM UTC-6, wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 24, 2018 at 8:39:19 PM UTC-4, Nick Kennedy wrote:
> > 27K to 35K for a refinish?!
> > Jeez the Fleet is in trouble, who's got that kind of money?
>
> Ya think?
> That is why I have helped one local club to get up to speed on refinishing their ships as club projects. They are on their third project this year.
> Our club refinished our '21 a few years ago..
> Another club in our area is going to give it a shot this year with support from P3 and myself.
> UH

One club member (ACA) expressed this as a rewarding club experience at the Focus on Clubs luncheon a couple of SSA Conventions ago. Other clubs have done similar projects. I recall one (SSB) that polished a 1-34 to gain a bunch of payload. Another (TBSS) where, at one time, the entire fleet was insurance salvage returned to service. And others that have built facilities.. I would suggest that projects that put gliders and keep gliders in the air are the best as club activities.

Frank Whiteley

[Roy B.]

I suspect that another part of the problem is that the return on investment for refinishing is not dollar for dollar. In my experience, a quality refinish (and I have seen some good ones from both domestic and foreign shops) only adds about 60% or so of the cost to the sale value of the glider. So using Hank's figures of $27K for a refinish of a beat out 15m glider - if you start with a $20K glider you spend $27K to get a glider worth about $35K when done. Unless it's a glider that you really love, it doesn't make sense to pay to have it done. A lower cost option would really help the fleet.
ROY (who refinished a 20m glider at home - and is, of course, now divorced)

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, October 24, 2018 at 5:37:37 PM UTC-7, Nick Kennedy wrote:
> Those Egyptians built those pyramids with slave labor.
> We need slaves and we need them now!

Nope, that's a myth.
https://www.usnews.com/science/articles/2010/01/12/egypt-new-find-shows-slaves-didnt-build-pyramids

[Dan Marotta]

No, they didn't.Â* It was aliens...

On 10/24/2018 6:37 PM, Nick Kennedy wrote:
> Those Egyptians built those pyramids with slave labor.
> We need slaves and we need them now!

--
Dan, 5J

[Papa3[_2_]]

On Thursday, October 25, 2018 at 9:24:14 AM UTC-4, Tango Whisky wrote:
> Le jeudi 25 octobre 2018 02:39:19 UTC+2, Nick Kennedy a écritÂ*:
> > 27K to 35K for a refinish?!
> > Jeez the Fleet is in trouble, who's got that kind of money?
>
> We've just got back one of our LS4 from Slovenia. PU + interior + €3000 of repair come up to €18000.

For those of us who speak USD... that's roughly $17K (excluding the repair component). Now, getting the ship there and back including insurance, brokers, transport to/from port etc. from the US is another $4K conservatively assuming you are on or near the east coast. Add a few thousand more if you're west of the Mississippi. We're back to somewhere in the "low $20K" levels somewhat optimistically.

[Paul Agnew]

If only it was this easy...

https://youtu.be/gr9ZAsySaD0

https://youtu.be/nx_ta3rABeY

PA

[Papa3[_2_]]

>
> Hey Nick,
>
> It's an excellent question - some of us who have done more than 1 refinish have had a lot of time to ponder this question in the middle of every 4 hour sanding session :-)
>
> Quick back of the envelope would be something like this:
>
> - Routine full refinish of a standard class glider for a shop with the right tools, process and skills is around 450 hours (just as a baseline - YMMV)
> - Rough SWAG suggests 25% skilled 75% un/semi-skilled
> - Figure you want to charge the skilled labor at $60/hr and the un/semi-skilled at $25/hr (note - assume the owner/operator is the skilled guy/gal and that there is some margin on the un-skilled rate that goes to him/her as well)
> - At those ratios and rates the labor for a refinish would be about:
> * $6750 for the high-skilled
> * $8500 for the un/semi-skilled
> * Total labor around $15K +/-
> - Add in another $5000 for materials and consumables, shop charges, other fixed costs
> - You're at a $20K refinish +/- a few percent.
> - You can argue around the margins a bit (say bill the unskilled out at $18/hr), but it's not going to end up with a $10K number.
>
> Kind of explains why the only people refinishing 1st and 2nd generation glass are either DIY owners or clubs.
>
> P3

And, just to be clear, this isn't suggesting that the current going rate in the US ($25K +++) isn't the right number given the current model (i.e. relatively low volume, "small business").

My estimate assumes that you can get the Earl Scheib model up and and running. "I'll paint any glider for $19,950 no ups, no extras". To do that, you need volume and a reasonable amount of cheap, semi-skilled labor.

[Papa3[_2_]]

On Thursday, October 25, 2018 at 9:25:48 AM UTC-4, Frank Whiteley wrote:
> On Thursday, October 25, 2018 at 7:03:44 AM UTC-6, wrote:
> > On Wednesday, October 24, 2018 at 8:39:19 PM UTC-4, Nick Kennedy wrote:
> > > 27K to 35K for a refinish?!
> > > Jeez the Fleet is in trouble, who's got that kind of money?
> >
> > Ya think?
> > That is why I have helped one local club to get up to speed on refinishing their ships as club projects. They are on their third project this year..
> > Our club refinished our '21 a few years ago..
> > Another club in our area is going to give it a shot this year with support from P3 and myself.
> > UH
>
> One club member (ACA) expressed this as a rewarding club experience at the Focus on Clubs luncheon a couple of SSA Conventions ago. Other clubs have done similar projects. I recall one (SSB) that polished a 1-34 to gain a bunch of payload. Another (TBSS) where, at one time, the entire fleet was insurance salvage returned to service. And others that have built facilities. I would suggest that projects that put gliders and keep gliders in the air are the best as club activities.
>
> Frank Whiteley

ACA Chief Refinishing Officer here... A lot of us agree that refinishing and restoring our gliders is one of the best team-building exercises out there. Over the years the enthusiasm ebbs and flows, but there are two constants.

One, you need a prime motivator. Back in the day, ACA had Jack Greene. You could bring in a 1-26 that had been balled up to the size of a VW Bug, and 6 months later a 1-26 would emerge (more or less :-))

20 years ago one of our guys caught the bug and refinished our 1-26 and 2-33 in matching livery.

Second, you need a shop. The biggest hurdle for a while was the lack of a consistent workspace. We migrated from garage to barn to shed. Finally, two years back we started renting a shop at the airport, and we now have the infrastructure we need.

In the last 7 or so years we've refinished and restored a Grob Twin Astir, LS4, 2-33 fuselage, Komet Trailer (now far and away the nicest Komet in the country), and started on an LS3. Also, we've done way more preventative maintenance than we did in the past. I'd say over 50 members have had their hands in various parts of this work.

P3

[Bob Kuykendall]

On Thursday, October 25, 2018 at 10:46:01 AM UTC-7, Papa3 wrote:
> To do that, you need volume and a reasonable amount of cheap, semi-skilled labor.

And a building, lights, heating, power, water, sewer, any state or locally required air filtration, and a healthy appetite for risk.

[[email protected]]

UH and P3 should give a presentation on how to manage refinishing projects using inexperienced staff (e.g., club members). I suspect M&H could contribute as they've taken a lot of young helpers from neophyte to expert stage over the years. The point is that you don't need a club full of expert repair people if you have a few experienced hands and good management. The latter is critical: turning a newbie loose with an 80-grit random orbital sander on the trailing edge of a wing or control surface without oversight can be disastrous.

Newcomers also need to be prepared to check their egos at the door. There are just so many ways you can (and almost certainly will) screw up with only a few seconds of inattention. I could give a presentation on that based on helping maestro UH refinish my ASW 24 the past two winters!

Chip Bearden

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, October 25, 2018 at 12:44:20 PM UTC-4, Papa3 wrote:
> On Thursday, October 25, 2018 at 9:24:14 AM UTC-4, Tango Whisky wrote:
> > Le jeudi 25 octobre 2018 02:39:19 UTC+2, Nick Kennedy a écritÂ*:
> > > 27K to 35K for a refinish?!
> > > Jeez the Fleet is in trouble, who's got that kind of money?
> >
> > We've just got back one of our LS4 from Slovenia. PU + interior + €3000 of repair come up to €18000.
>
> For those of us who speak USD... that's roughly $17K (excluding the repair component). Now, getting the ship there and back including insurance, brokers, transport to/from port etc. from the US is another $4K conservatively assuming you are on or near the east coast. Add a few thousand more if you're west of the Mississippi. We're back to somewhere in the "low $20K" levels somewhat optimistically.

Don't know where you buy your euros but I'd say the conversion of 21000 euro comes closer to $25k. And they all need some level of repair during the process.
That said, there are more resources there than here.
I turn down a dozen a year. Heinz many times that.
UH

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, October 25, 2018 at 9:34:34 AM UTC-4, Roy B. wrote:
> I suspect that another part of the problem is that the return on investment for refinishing is not dollar for dollar. In my experience, a quality refinish (and I have seen some good ones from both domestic and foreign shops) only adds about 60% or so of the cost to the sale value of the glider. So using Hank's figures of $27K for a refinish of a beat out 15m glider - if you start with a $20K glider you spend $27K to get a glider worth about $35K when done. Unless it's a glider that you really love, it doesn't make sense to pay to have it done. A lower cost option would really help the fleet.
> ROY (who refinished a 20m glider at home - and is, of course, now divorced)

I think your numbers are pretty much spot on. I don't completely agree with the conclusion. If one buys an older glider at about the right price and has it refinished, it will cost more than it will draw on the market, but the owner has a nice glider to use for a long time to come without worrying about it becoming a complete rat. There is real value in that. The only way we have gotten our money out of refinishes was by doing them on project gliders that start as owner modified from the insurance company.
If it were possible to just buy old gliders, pay somebody to refinish them, and sell them for more than you have in them, everybody would be doing that.

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

Having been around for "metal/fabric" gliders and composites over several decades, knowledge is great, but time is the issue.
I have been around from the beginning on metal/fabric hands on, watched composite from the beginning although I am usually late in the game hands on. Mostly "great finish" with lots of time.
Yes, machines is part of it, suitable location is another part (lunch at midday is nice!), this all costs someone something.
Experience is another thing.
I know Papa3 has learned from the "Skunkworks" over the years.
It is dusty, dirty, time consuming work for either type. Even cheap labor can get expensive.
Yes, I have been involved with "flat sand, polish" to prolong existing crap gel coat up to full refinish.
It all takes time, tools, knowledge and a decent place to work.

Yes, this can be a great club exercise, at least some members understand what is involved if you don't maintain what you already have.
Then again, it can be easy to take a simple job and make it expensive (not watching cords, wrap it in a polisher, punch holes in bits......I have done a repolish after the glass fix......).

This is NOT a, "I want to save money, spend a bit, make it great!". Yes you can, then again, it is real easy to F up.......then it gets expensive real fast.

[POPS]

;977287']On Tuesday, October 23, 2018 at 5:43:08 AM UTC-7, POPS wrote:
'Richard Pfiffner[_2_ Wrote:
;976901']Pictures and process for refinishing a ventus b fuselage. Work
in progress pictures and process as work is completed.

http://www.craggyaero.com/ventus.htm

Richard
www.craggyaero.com


Yo, that's a great pic log. I know you said you'd never do it, but when
your all finished you could roll your old trusty-rusty all-terrain tow
vehicle in there, hook it onto that lazy-susan contraption and put the
spit shine to that sucker!
Just think how Gooood yud look coming and going!
Just think about it...




--
POPS

Previa has a new paint job already. 441,236 miles replaced the right door handle, never changed transmission fluid. changed spark plugs and engine oil.

On to 500K

Noooooo, don't tell me you don't have that Urban Assault Vehicle rust patina hood any more? Your calling card is gone! You're just another joe in the crowd.
Well, at least the interior's still setting the standard. Or did ya blow it there too?

[Richard Pfiffner[_2_]]

On Thursday, October 25, 2018 at 5:43:10 PM UTC-7, POPS wrote:
> 'Richard Pfiffner[_2_ Wrote:
> > ;977287']On Tuesday, October 23, 2018 at 5:43:08 AM UTC-7, POPS wrote:-
> > 'Richard Pfiffner[_2_ Wrote: -
> > ;976901']Pictures and process for refinishing a ventus b fuselage.
> > Work
> > in progress pictures and process as work is completed.
> >
> > http://www.craggyaero.com/ventus.htm
> >
> > Richard
> > www.craggyaero.com-
> >
> >
> > Yo, that's a great pic log. I know you said you'd never do it, but
> > when
> > your all finished you could roll your old trusty-rusty all-terrain tow
> > vehicle in there, hook it onto that lazy-susan contraption and put the
> > spit shine to that sucker!
> > Just think how Gooood yud look coming and going!
> > Just think about it...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > POPS-
> >
> > Previa has a new paint job already. 441,236 miles replaced the right
> > door handle, never changed transmission fluid. changed spark plugs and
> > engine oil.
> >
> > On to 500K
>
> Noooooo, don't tell me you don't have that Urban Assault Vehicle rust
> patina hood any more? Your calling card is gone! You're just
> another joe in the crowd.
> Well, at least the interior's still setting the standard. Or did ya
> blow it there too?
>
>
>
>
> --
> POPS

Patina will be back as soon as I hit another deer or two.

Richard

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

"Bam....be.......".
Yes, I have hit a deer at about 50MPH, amazing the damage that can be done. :-(

[Richard Pfiffner[_2_]]

On Friday, October 26, 2018 at 8:36:12 AM UTC-7, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> "Bam....be.......".
> Yes, I have hit a deer at about 50MPH, amazing the damage that can be done. :-(

Last 2 coats of Vinyl ester primer sand with 180g next. The reason for so many coats of fairing primer and primer is to sand to make sure the surface is flat with no flaws. If you don't do this the finish with not be good and all the defects will show at the finish coat. Next sanding with P180.

http://www.craggyaero.com/ventus.htm

Richard

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[Richard Pfiffner[_2_]]

On Saturday, October 27, 2018 at 4:35:37 PM UTC-7, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> On Friday, October 26, 2018 at 8:36:12 AM UTC-7, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> > "Bam....be.......".
> > Yes, I have hit a deer at about 50MPH, amazing the damage that can be done. :-(
>
> Last 2 coats of Vinyl ester primer sand with 180g next. The reason for so many coats of fairing primer and primer is to sand to make sure the surface is flat with no flaws. If you don't do this the finish with not be good and all the defects will show at the finish coat. Next sanding with P180..
>
> http://www.craggyaero.com/ventus.htm
>
> Richard
>
> Richard
> www.craggyaero.com

Last coat of JP202 Primer, tomorrow sand with P320, then top coat with JAU Acrylic Urethane.

http://www.craggyaero.com/ventus.htm

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[Dan Marotta]

It appears that your fuselage stand does not have any sort of rollers or
bearings to make spinning the fuselage easy.Â* How do you do it?Â* Do you
have an assistant lift the nose while you rotate at the ring?

Curious...

On 11/1/2018 6:48 PM, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> On Saturday, October 27, 2018 at 4:35:37 PM UTC-7, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
>> On Friday, October 26, 2018 at 8:36:12 AM UTC-7, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
>>> "Bam....be.......".
>>> Yes, I have hit a deer at about 50MPH, amazing the damage that can be done. :-(
>> Last 2 coats of Vinyl ester primer sand with 180g next. The reason for so many coats of fairing primer and primer is to sand to make sure the surface is flat with no flaws. If you don't do this the finish with not be good and all the defects will show at the finish coat. Next sanding with P180.
>>
>> http://www.craggyaero.com/ventus.htm
>>
>> Richard
>>
>> Richard
>> www.craggyaero.com
> Last coat of JP202 Primer, tomorrow sand with P320, then top coat with JAU Acrylic Urethane.
>
> http://www.craggyaero.com/ventus.htm
>
> Richard
> www.craggyaero.com

--
Dan, 5J

[Tango Eight]

I have shop envy.

T8

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

Yeah, sorta.
;-)

Yes, lots of work if done right. I have seen the process, usually around for the final stages.
Peeps that think, "sure, I can get it done for a grand or two", is hopefully looking to unload quickly.

While I have little experience in some newer outer coatings, doing gelcoat finishing is like polishing granite with wet toilet paper.
Maybe have a crew of females (not politically correct) so when they sand, they can chant, "I must, I must, I must build my bust....".
Yes, lots of work, even with machines.
Sheesh, anyone that has gone through it and it lasts more than a couple years, labor is the main issue.
Period.

[Richard Pfiffner[_2_]]

On Friday, November 2, 2018 at 7:59:12 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> It appears that your fuselage stand does not have any sort of rollers or
> bearings to make spinning the fuselage easy.Â* How do you do it?Â* Do you
> have an assistant lift the nose while you rotate at the ring?
>
> Curious...
>
> On 11/1/2018 6:48 PM, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> > On Saturday, October 27, 2018 at 4:35:37 PM UTC-7, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> >> On Friday, October 26, 2018 at 8:36:12 AM UTC-7, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> >>> "Bam....be.......".
> >>> Yes, I have hit a deer at about 50MPH, amazing the damage that can be done. :-(
> >> Last 2 coats of Vinyl ester primer sand with 180g next. The reason for so many coats of fairing primer and primer is to sand to make sure the surface is flat with no flaws. If you don't do this the finish with not be good and all the defects will show at the finish coat. Next sanding with P180.
> >>
> >> http://www.craggyaero.com/ventus.htm
> >>
> >> Richard
> >>
> >> Richard
> >> www.craggyaero.com
> > Last coat of JP202 Primer, tomorrow sand with P320, then top coat with JAU Acrylic Urethane.
> >
> > http://www.craggyaero.com/ventus.htm
> >
> > Richard
> > www.craggyaero.com
>
> --
> Dan, 5J

Two wheels in the bottom stand ring rolls on them.

[Richard Pfiffner[_2_]]

On Friday, November 2, 2018 at 3:25:43 PM UTC-7, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> On Friday, November 2, 2018 at 7:59:12 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > It appears that your fuselage stand does not have any sort of rollers or
> > bearings to make spinning the fuselage easy.Â* How do you do it?Â* Do you
> > have an assistant lift the nose while you rotate at the ring?
> >
> > Curious...
> >
> > On 11/1/2018 6:48 PM, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> > > On Saturday, October 27, 2018 at 4:35:37 PM UTC-7, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> > >> On Friday, October 26, 2018 at 8:36:12 AM UTC-7, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> > >>> "Bam....be.......".
> > >>> Yes, I have hit a deer at about 50MPH, amazing the damage that can be done. :-(
> > >> Last 2 coats of Vinyl ester primer sand with 180g next. The reason for so many coats of fairing primer and primer is to sand to make sure the surface is flat with no flaws. If you don't do this the finish with not be good and all the defects will show at the finish coat. Next sanding with P180.
> > >>
> > >> http://www.craggyaero.com/ventus.htm
> > >>
> > >> Richard
> > >>
> > >> Richard
> > >> www.craggyaero.com
> > > Last coat of JP202 Primer, tomorrow sand with P320, then top coat with JAU Acrylic Urethane.
> > >
> > > http://www.craggyaero.com/ventus.htm
> > >
> > > Richard
> > > www.craggyaero.com
> >
> > --
> > Dan, 5J
>
> Two wheels in the bottom stand ring rolls on them.

It is white again 3 coats JAU Acrylic Urethane.

http://www.craggyaero.com/ventus.htm

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[Fraser Wilson[_2_]]

Last 2 coats of Vinyl ester primer sand with 180g next. The
reason for so many coats of fairing primer and primer is to sand to
make sure the surface is flat with no flaws. If you don't do this
the finish with not be good and all the defects will show at the
finish coat. Next sanding with P180.

>> >> http://www.craggyaero.com/ventus.htm

>> >> Richard

>> >> Richard
>> >> www.craggyaero.com
>> > Last coat of JP202 Primer, tomorrow sand with P320, then
top coat with JAU Acrylic

I’m not saying the JP202 will be a problem but my experience of a
similar high build primer was that it suffered significant blistering
when only about 5 years old. It’s not really a problem for the auto
boys because who keeps a car that long?

The issue is the filling medium used in the primer;- Talc or chalk
are bad;- water enters the plastic due to fick’s diffusion where it
mixes with the chalk = carbolic acid which neutralises by drawing
in more water + generating pressure (osmosis) which pushes up a
blister.

As a result of this I currently would fill surface with chemically
inert filled (alumina/kaolin) epoxy or polyester, untill defect free
and then use a standard white 2 part primer.

Fraser

[Richard Pfiffner[_2_]]

On Sunday, November 4, 2018 at 12:00:05 AM UTC-7, Fraser Wilson wrote:
> Last 2 coats of Vinyl ester primer sand with 180g next. The
> reason for so many coats of fairing primer and primer is to sand to
> make sure the surface is flat with no flaws. If you don't do this
> the finish with not be good and all the defects will show at the
> finish coat. Next sanding with P180.
>
> >> >> http://www.craggyaero.com/ventus.htm
>
> >> >> Richard
>
> >> >> Richard
> >> >> www.craggyaero.com
> >> > Last coat of JP202 Primer, tomorrow sand with P320, then
> top coat with JAU Acrylic
>
> I’m not saying the JP202 will be a problem but my experience of a
> similar high build primer was that it suffered significant blistering
> when only about 5 years old. It’s not really a problem for the auto
> boys because who keeps a car that long?
>
> The issue is the filling medium used in the primer;- Talc or chalk
> are bad;- water enters the plastic due to fick’s diffusion where it
> mixes with the chalk = carbolic acid which neutralises by drawing
> in more water + generating pressure (osmosis) which pushes up a
> blister.
>
> As a result of this I currently would fill surface with chemically
> inert filled (alumina/kaolin) epoxy or polyester, untill defect free
> and then use a standard white 2 part primer.
>
> Fraser

Fraser,

The last time I used this process was 17 years ago on my ventus wings. Since then the glider has been tied out in the sun and weather every summer April thru October. The wings except for some chips and dings are still in excellent shape.

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[[email protected]]

>
> I’m not saying the JP202 will be a problem but my experience of a
> similar high build primer was that it suffered significant blistering
> when only about 5 years old. It’s not really a problem for the auto
> boys because who keeps a car that long?
>
> The issue is the filling medium used in the primer;- Talc or chalk
> are bad;- water enters the plastic due to fick’s diffusion where it
> mixes with the chalk = carbolic acid which neutralises by drawing
> in more water + generating pressure (osmosis) which pushes up a
> blister.
>
> As a result of this I currently would fill surface with chemically
> inert filled (alumina/kaolin) epoxy or polyester, untill defect free
> and then use a standard white 2 part primer.
>
> Fraser

So what chemically inert primer would YOU use?

[Robert Seccombe]

Richard,

How did you determine to use the aft wing locating pin bearings for mounting on your rotisserie? I'm just at that stage in building one for my Ventus.

[Richard Pfiffner[_2_]]

On Saturday, November 10, 2018 at 11:45:51 PM UTC-8, Robert Seccombe wrote:
> Richard,
>
> How did you determine to use the aft wing locating pin bearings for mounting on your rotisserie? I'm just at that stage in building one for my Ventus.

It was narrower than the front and it make the tail lighter. You do have to adjust the tail height to rotate the fuselage. A rope to the ceiling makes this easier.

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[Bob Youngblood]

On Friday, October 12, 2018 at 9:16:35 PM UTC-4, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> Pictures and process for refinishing a ventus b fuselage. Work in progress pictures and process as work is completed.
>
> http://www.craggyaero.com/ventus.htm
>
> Richard
> www.craggyaero.com

Nice work, looks like you are well prepared.

[Charlie Quebec]

Ain’t that the truth Mark M, just finished sanding and buffing my DG200-17C all over, about 50 hours to get the original Schaballac gelcoat back to looking new,
not bad for a glider made in 1980 to still have original gel in perfect condition.

[Richard Pfiffner[_2_]]

On Saturday, December 1, 2018 at 1:57:51 PM UTC-8, Charlie Quebec wrote:
> Ain’t that the truth Mark M, just finished sanding and buffing my DG200-17C all over, about 50 hours to get the original Schaballac gelcoat back to looking new,
> not bad for a glider made in 1980 to still have original gel in perfect condition.

All the work and you have drip. What to do?

http://www.craggyaero.com/ventus.htm

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[Darryl Ramm]

On Saturday, December 1, 2018 at 4:14:07 PM UTC-8, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> On Saturday, December 1, 2018 at 1:57:51 PM UTC-8, Charlie Quebec wrote:
> > Ain’t that the truth Mark M, just finished sanding and buffing my DG200-17C all over, about 50 hours to get the original Schaballac gelcoat back to looking new,
> > not bad for a glider made in 1980 to still have original gel in perfect condition.
>
> All the work and you have drip. What to do?
>
> http://www.craggyaero.com/ventus.htm
>
> Richard
> www.craggyaero.com

Stop painting and deal with installing an ADS-B Out system. The change will make sanding seem pleasurable. :-)

[Richard Pfiffner[_2_]]

On Saturday, December 1, 2018 at 6:52:02 PM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> On Saturday, December 1, 2018 at 4:14:07 PM UTC-8, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> > On Saturday, December 1, 2018 at 1:57:51 PM UTC-8, Charlie Quebec wrote:
> > > Ain’t that the truth Mark M, just finished sanding and buffing my DG200-17C all over, about 50 hours to get the original Schaballac gelcoat back to looking new,
> > > not bad for a glider made in 1980 to still have original gel in perfect condition.
> >
> > All the work and you have drip. What to do?
> >
> > http://www.craggyaero.com/ventus.htm
> >
> > Richard
> > www.craggyaero.com
>
> Stop painting and deal with installing an ADS-B Out system. The change will make sanding seem pleasurable. :-)

Installed one two weeks ago in a MinLak FES it was a lot easier than sanding.

Richard

[Dan Marotta]

What Richard said.Â* I installed ADS-B in my Stemme and the hardest part
was removing and replacing all the stuff necessary to get to a flat spot
to mount the hardware.Â* The gigantic antenna was easily installed under
the turtle deck using a design shown to me by another Stemme owner.Â* My
IA inspected my work, said it looked "Perfect", gave me a log book
sticker, sent a 337 to the FAA, and handed me a bill for his time.Â* It
was easy work and the price paid the IA was well worth it!

On 12/1/2018 8:22 PM, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> On Saturday, December 1, 2018 at 6:52:02 PM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
>> On Saturday, December 1, 2018 at 4:14:07 PM UTC-8, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
>>> On Saturday, December 1, 2018 at 1:57:51 PM UTC-8, Charlie Quebec wrote:
>>>> Ain’t that the truth Mark M, just finished sanding and buffing my DG200-17C all over, about 50 hours to get the original Schaballac gelcoat back to looking new,
>>>> not bad for a glider made in 1980 to still have original gel in perfect condition.
>>> All the work and you have drip. What to do?
>>>
>>> http://www.craggyaero.com/ventus.htm
>>>
>>> Richard
>>> www.craggyaero.com
>> Stop painting and deal with installing an ADS-B Out system. The change will make sanding seem pleasurable. :-)
> Installed one two weeks ago in a MinLak FES it was a lot easier than sanding.
>
> Richard

--
Dan, 5J

[Darryl Ramm]

On Sunday, December 2, 2018 at 8:28:38 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
> What Richard said.Â* I installed ADS-B in my Stemme and the hardest part
> was removing and replacing all the stuff necessary to get to a flat spot
> to mount the hardware.Â* The gigantic antenna was easily installed under
> the turtle deck using a design shown to me by another Stemme owner.Â* My
> IA inspected my work, said it looked "Perfect", gave me a log book
> sticker, sent a 337 to the FAA, and handed me a bill for his time.Â* It
> was easy work and the price paid the IA was well worth it!
>
> On 12/1/2018 8:22 PM, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> > On Saturday, December 1, 2018 at 6:52:02 PM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> >> On Saturday, December 1, 2018 at 4:14:07 PM UTC-8, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> >>> On Saturday, December 1, 2018 at 1:57:51 PM UTC-8, Charlie Quebec wrote:
> >>>> Ain’t that the truth Mark M, just finished sanding and buffing my DG200-17C all over, about 50 hours to get the original Schaballac gelcoat back to looking new,
> >>>> not bad for a glider made in 1980 to still have original gel in perfect condition.
> >>> All the work and you have drip. What to do?
> >>>
> >>> http://www.craggyaero.com/ventus.htm
> >>>
> >>> Richard
> >>> www.craggyaero.com
> >> Stop painting and deal with installing an ADS-B Out system. The change will make sanding seem pleasurable. :-)
> > Installed one two weeks ago in a MinLak FES it was a lot easier than sanding.
> >
> > Richard
>
> --
> Dan, 5J

:-)

[Craig Lowrie]

Back to the refinishing project... I have to commend the guys for
documenting this and tracking the hours... I'm sure many would have
underestimated how long such a refinish might take... I am interested why
they have used Sharpie pens on the paint as opposed to a commercially
available guide coat, which makes sure you have not missed any areas. I
would use guide coat and 800 paper, wet... probably re-guide coat at 1200,

then soft pencil at 1500 before hitting it with G3 to bring out the
shine...
great work though...!...

At 16:36 02 December 2018, Darryl Ramm wrote:
>On Sunday, December 2, 2018 at 8:28:38 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> What Richard said.=C2=A0 I installed ADS-B in my Stemme and the
hardest
>p=
>art=20
>> was removing and replacing all the stuff necessary to get to a flat
spot=
>=20
>> to mount the hardware.=C2=A0 The gigantic antenna was easily installed
>un=
>der=20
>> the turtle deck using a design shown to me by another Stemme
>owner.=C2=A0=
> My=20
>> IA inspected my work, said it looked "Perfect", gave me a log book=20
>> sticker, sent a 337 to the FAA, and handed me a bill for his
time.=C2=A0
>=
>It=20
>> was easy work and the price paid the IA was well worth it!
>>=20
>> On 12/1/2018 8:22 PM, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
>> > On Saturday, December 1, 2018 at 6:52:02 PM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm
wrote:
>> >> On Saturday, December 1, 2018 at 4:14:07 PM UTC-8, Richard
Pfiffner
>wr=
>ote:
>> >>> On Saturday, December 1, 2018 at 1:57:51 PM UTC-8, Charlie
Quebec
>wro=
>te:
>> >>>> Ain=E2=80=99t that the truth Mark M, just finished sanding and
>buffi=
>ng my DG200-17C all over, about 50 hours to get the original Schaballac
>gel=
>coat back to looking new,
>> >>>> not bad for a glider made in 1980 to still have original gel in
>perf=
>ect condition.
>> >>> All the work and you have drip. What to do?
>> >>>
>> >>> http://www.craggyaero.com/ventus.htm
>> >>>
>> >>> Richard
>> >>> www.craggyaero.com
>> >> Stop painting and deal with installing an ADS-B Out system. The
>change=
> will make sanding seem pleasurable. :-)
>> > Installed one two weeks ago in a MinLak FES it was a lot easier than
>s=
>anding.
>> >
>> > Richard
>>=20
>> --=20
>> Dan, 5J
>
>:-)
>

[Richard Pfiffner[_2_]]

On Monday, December 3, 2018 at 3:00:05 PM UTC-8, Craig Lowrie wrote:
> Back to the refinishing project... I have to commend the guys for
> documenting this and tracking the hours... I'm sure many would have
> underestimated how long such a refinish might take... I am interested why
> they have used Sharpie pens on the paint as opposed to a commercially
> available guide coat, which makes sure you have not missed any areas. I
> would use guide coat and 800 paper, wet... probably re-guide coat at 1200,
>
> then soft pencil at 1500 before hitting it with G3 to bring out the
> shine...
> great work though...!...
>
> At 16:36 02 December 2018, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> >On Sunday, December 2, 2018 at 8:28:38 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
> >> What Richard said.=C2=A0 I installed ADS-B in my Stemme and the
> hardest
> >p=
> >art=20
> >> was removing and replacing all the stuff necessary to get to a flat
> spot=
> >=20
> >> to mount the hardware.=C2=A0 The gigantic antenna was easily installed
> >un=
> >der=20
> >> the turtle deck using a design shown to me by another Stemme
> >owner.=C2=A0=
> > My=20
> >> IA inspected my work, said it looked "Perfect", gave me a log book=20
> >> sticker, sent a 337 to the FAA, and handed me a bill for his
> time.=C2=A0
> >=
> >It=20
> >> was easy work and the price paid the IA was well worth it!
> >>=20
> >> On 12/1/2018 8:22 PM, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> >> > On Saturday, December 1, 2018 at 6:52:02 PM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm
> wrote:
> >> >> On Saturday, December 1, 2018 at 4:14:07 PM UTC-8, Richard
> Pfiffner
> >wr=
> >ote:
> >> >>> On Saturday, December 1, 2018 at 1:57:51 PM UTC-8, Charlie
> Quebec
> >wro=
> >te:
> >> >>>> Ain=E2=80=99t that the truth Mark M, just finished sanding and
> >buffi=
> >ng my DG200-17C all over, about 50 hours to get the original Schaballac
> >gel=
> >coat back to looking new,
> >> >>>> not bad for a glider made in 1980 to still have original gel in
> >perf=
> >ect condition.
> >> >>> All the work and you have drip. What to do?
> >> >>>
> >> >>> http://www.craggyaero.com/ventus.htm
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Richard
> >> >>> www.craggyaero.com
> >> >> Stop painting and deal with installing an ADS-B Out system. The
> >change=
> > will make sanding seem pleasurable. :-)
> >> > Installed one two weeks ago in a MinLak FES it was a lot easier than
> >s=
> >anding.
> >> >
> >> > Richard
> >>=20
> >> --=20
> >> Dan, 5J
> >
> >:-)
> >

Craig,

commercial guide coat will work great, I just had the sharpie on hand.

Richard

[[email protected]]

> commercial guide coat will work great, I just had the sharpie on hand.

And hopefully, another box of sandpaper.

[Richard Pfiffner[_2_]]

On Monday, December 3, 2018 at 5:16:54 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> > commercial guide coat will work great, I just had the sharpie on hand.
>
> And hopefully, another box of sandpaper.



Finish Polish almost done

http://www.craggyaero.com/ventus.htm

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[[email protected]]

On Saturday, December 22, 2018 at 10:21:18 AM UTC-6, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> On Monday, December 3, 2018 at 5:16:54 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> > > commercial guide coat will work great, I just had the sharpie on hand.
> >
> > And hopefully, another box of sandpaper.
>
>
>
> Finish Polish almost done
>
> http://www.craggyaero.com/ventus.htm
>
> Richard
> www.craggyaero.com

The Finnish never had any quarrels with the Polish, but now they are done? Explain, please.

[[email protected]]

> The Finnish never had any quarrels with the Polish, but now they are done? Explain, please.

In 1939, the Finns and Poles were inflicted with some quarrelsome Germs. Finally got over it in 1945.

[[email protected]]

On Monday, December 24, 2018 at 8:38:11 AM UTC-6, wrote:
> > The Finnish never had any quarrels with the Polish, but now they are done? Explain, please.
>
> In 1939, the Finns and Poles were inflicted with some quarrelsome Germs. Finally got over it in 1945.

Hey, careful there. I'm Germish.

[[email protected]]

> Hey, careful there. I'm Germish.

I was being careful. Oh, and it was 1944 before the Finns joined against the Germs. They were whacked by the Soviets in 1939. Fought against them on the German side until joining the Allies in 1944.

[[email protected]]

On Friday, October 12, 2018 at 8:16:35 PM UTC-5, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> Pictures and process for refinishing a ventus b fuselage. Work in progress pictures and process as work is completed.
>
> http://www.craggyaero.com/ventus.htm
>
> Richard
> www.craggyaero.com

Beautiful work Richard, well done.

Chris

[Richard Pfiffner[_2_]]

On Monday, December 24, 2018 at 5:59:38 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> On Saturday, December 22, 2018 at 10:21:18 AM UTC-6, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> > On Monday, December 3, 2018 at 5:16:54 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> > > > commercial guide coat will work great, I just had the sharpie on hand.
> > >
> > > And hopefully, another box of sandpaper.
> >
> >
> >
> > Finish Polish almost done
> >
> > http://www.craggyaero.com/ventus.htm
> >
> > Richard
> > www.craggyaero.com
>
> The Finnish never had any quarrels with the Polish, but now they are done? Explain, please.

finished polishing almost done.

No Finnish or Polish Helped

Richard

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Monday, December 24, 2018 at 6:59:16 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> > Hey, careful there. I'm Germish.
>
> I was being careful. Oh, and it was 1944 before the Finns joined against the Germs. They were whacked by the Soviets in 1939. Fought against them on the German side until joining the Allies in 1944.

"They were whacked by the Soviets in 1939." Are you sure about that? I think the Soviets got wacked by the Finns, losing 175 soldiers per Finn lost. Finns just knew they would not win a prolonged war against the Soviets like they did earlier in the Century, so a peace was mercifully negotiated before the Soviets got further shot up and the Finns entered WWII as an allied of Germany to help protect against further Soviet Martyrs.

[[email protected]]

They got whacked initially by the Soviets, whereupon they did some serious whacking back. First punch is what I was referring to.

[Richard Pfiffner[_2_]]

On Monday, December 24, 2018 at 10:25:10 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> They got whacked initially by the Soviets, whereupon they did some serious whacking back. First punch is what I was referring to.

But can they sand!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Richard

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

“They got whacked initially by the Soviets, whereupon they did some serious whacking back. First punch is what I was referring to.“. The way I see it, little Finnland beat the Soviet Union twice in the 1900’s then adaptation used Germany for protection and avoided much of the carriage of war war two. Don’t hear much about Finnland these days in the world news unless one looks at school test scores, they lead the world. For all I know they are quietly running the entire planet

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Monday, December 24, 2018 at 10:25:10 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> They got whacked initially by the Soviets, whereupon they did some serious whacking back. First punch is what I was referring to.

The way I see it, Finland beat the Soviet Union in two wars in the first half of the 1900's and now have the highest math test scores. Perhaps Trump should request more immigrants from Finland instead of Norway :)

[[email protected]]

On Monday, December 24, 2018 at 11:08:38 AM UTC-5, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> On Monday, December 24, 2018 at 5:59:38 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> > On Saturday, December 22, 2018 at 10:21:18 AM UTC-6, Richard Pfiffner wrote:
> > > On Monday, December 3, 2018 at 5:16:54 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> > > > > commercial guide coat will work great, I just had the sharpie on hand.
> > > >
> > > > And hopefully, another box of sandpaper.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Finish Polish almost done
> > >
> > > http://www.craggyaero.com/ventus.htm
> > >
> > > Richard
> > > www.craggyaero.com
> >
> > The Finnish never had any quarrels with the Polish, but now they are done? Explain, please.
>
> finished polishing almost done.
>
> No Finnish or Polish Helped
>
> Richard

Skipping all the political jokes, back to business.
We usually expect to take about 120 hours to do a fuselage, including canopy area. I'm curious to hear how long it has taken you.
Nice when you start getting close to "that's good enough, I'm done".
Thanks for sharing
UH

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

Picture have accumulated time to the right of them.
Picture 21 (last one) shows 140.5hrs total.

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, December 27, 2018 at 10:08:29 AM UTC-5, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> Picture have accumulated time to the right of them.
> Picture 21 (last one) shows 140.5hrs total.

Missed that
UH

[Richard Pfiffner[_2_]]

On Thursday, December 27, 2018 at 7:08:29 AM UTC-8, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> Picture have accumulated time to the right of them.
> Picture 21 (last one) shows 140.5hrs total.

Charlie,

I included the time to make the fixture and remove & replace instrument panel, landing gear etc.

Last time I did this was 17 years ago. If I did this again it would probably take 100 to 120 Hrs.

I would roll on 3 coats of vinyl ester surfacer and only sand once. This would save lots of sanding.

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

That's fine, just answering a question.
Your time, including the fixture etc., may help others.
I "know" Hank/UH has various fixtures for various projects from decades of repair/refinish. I know, I have been through some of those as a "shop rat".
It can be amazing when some peeps wonder "why so much time/money" for repairs or refinish.
This thread gives some idea.

Thanks for the thread, kudos to those that do repairs or refinishes. I know a few on here have been through the "skunk works" as helpers or recipients, so they have some clue.

Yes, lots of work.......

[[email protected]]

Mike, can you share the boat refinish system you used on your trailer top? I want to refinish mine this spring. mhutnick ate papa tango dog dot fish catching thingy
Cheers
Mike