Greatful for this group

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

A few nights ago I stumbled into a conversation on FB Tail Draggers Unit. The question was as simple as it gets: Airspeed, controlled by power or pitch? I know simple, but there so many that were sure the answer was power or a combination of power and pitch. Some thought power controlled speed and pitch controls glide slope. Even a pilot with 25K flew the "big stuff in 3rd world countries without autopilot". This guy also flew T-6's (a heavy underpowered aircraft) in a demo team! Thank God for glider pilots that know the basics. And thank you to all the true geniuses that contribute to this group! Next time I get into an airliner I hope my pilot trained in gliders.

[Frank Whiteley]

On Thursday, October 18, 2018 at 9:11:02 AM UTC-6, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> A few nights ago I stumbled into a conversation on FB Tail Draggers Unit. The question was as simple as it gets: Airspeed, controlled by power or pitch? I know simple, but there so many that were sure the answer was power or a combination of power and pitch. Some thought power controlled speed and pitch controls glide slope. Even a pilot with 25K flew the "big stuff in 3rd world countries without autopilot". This guy also flew T-6's (a heavy underpowered aircraft) in a demo team! Thank God for glider pilots that know the basics. And thank you to all the true geniuses that contribute to this group! Next time I get into an airliner I hope my pilot trained in gliders.

If I get the chance, I ask the pilots, usually while departing from the cheap seats when there's more time to linger. I'll also ask them while waiting for the hotel shuttles. Some have or say they have been thinking about it.

[JS[_5_]]

On Thursday, October 18, 2018 at 8:11:02 AM UTC-7, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> A few nights ago I stumbled into a conversation on FB Tail Draggers Unit. The question was as simple as it gets: Airspeed, controlled by power or pitch? I know simple, but there so many that were sure the answer was power or a combination of power and pitch. Some thought power controlled speed and pitch controls glide slope. Even a pilot with 25K flew the "big stuff in 3rd world countries without autopilot". This guy also flew T-6's (a heavy underpowered aircraft) in a demo team! Thank God for glider pilots that know the basics. And thank you to all the true geniuses that contribute to this group! Next time I get into an airliner I hope my pilot trained in gliders.

Before departure, I generally go into the cockpit of airliners and ask what they fly for fun.
Last time got the wrong answer, neither currently owned an aircraft.
A few flights ago the B777 FO's first job in aviation was giving rides in a Blanik. Slept better on that one.
Jim

[[email protected]]

Most power(only) pilots are NPCs.

[Paul Agnew]

ATP, multiple type ratings, CFI-A, CFI-R, and Comm Glider (added three years ago.) Former traffic reporter, cargo, instructor, occasional jump pilot, and helicopter instructor, and corporate pilot (jets and helo.)

When I got my glider rating three years ago I had spent 15 years and 12000+ hours as a Captain on the Airbus and had about three hours of GA flying total in that time.

While the glider rating was a great boost to my level of enjoyment, it was all of the hours early in my aviation life that solidified my skills. I don’t think being current in GA makes a bit of difference in modern airliners. Saving your own butt enough times is the crucible that makes good pilots in all areas of aviation.

Paul A.

[PGS]

On Thursday, October 18, 2018 at 11:11:02 AM UTC-4, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> A few nights ago I stumbled into a conversation on FB Tail Draggers Unit. The question was as simple as it gets: Airspeed, controlled by power or pitch?

I still remember being asked that question by the DPE that gave me my power CFI check ride back in the late 70"s. I had been prepped by someone that new this guy wanted to hear "power", so I said "power". He was very ecstatic that I gave the "right answer" and said of course, just try sitting on the end of the runway and move the elevator all you want and you won't go anywhere. I wanted to (and did) pass my check ride so I never mentioned gliders :-)

[richard wilkening]

While conducting Airplane Commercial SEL Checkrides recently, we were down to the Power Off 180* Accuracy Landing. There was a strong headwind on Base Leg, and two separate applicants slowed to Best Glide Speed when they noticed the significant headwind. Needless to say it made their glide path worse instead of better. I thought to myself that a glider pilot would’ve sped up...

[Tango Eight]

On Thursday, October 18, 2018 at 11:43:21 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> Most power(only) pilots are NPCs.

:7|

T8

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Thursday, October 18, 2018 at 3:27:02 PM UTC-7, Richard Wilkening wrote:
> While conducting Airplane Commercial SEL Checkrides recently, we were down to the Power Off 180* Accuracy Landing. There was a strong headwind on Base Leg, and two separate applicants slowed to Best Glide Speed when they noticed the significant headwind. Needless to say it made their glide path worse instead of better. I thought to myself that a glider pilot would’ve sped up...

Until they changed the min crossing altitude of the Julian VOR, on wave days, we routinely lost pilots or in one case while I was flying a glider in the same area an instructor and student. Pretty sure they got into serious down air, pulled back to best climb speed in their CE 172. I find the young airplane only guys I know are frightening in what they do not know. Don't know how to read clouds, don't understand wind flow in the terrain....

[[email protected]]

Well, the "right answer" is probably not as clear cut as that. For example, the French "blue book" (the official glider training handbook in France) has stated for years that on final, you have to adjust the glide slope by changing the pitch of the airplane and you have to control the airspeed with the airbrakes. That is the exact opposite of what had been taught by the former editions of the book, and there was a storm of protest from most of the "old school" instructors when this was introduced.

The last issue I possess (issue 10) still uses wordings that stress the primary use of pitch to get to the right slope for the final approach, while using the brakes to keep the approach speed constant.

During a flight instructor course at Saint-Auban, we had to be able to apply this method. It works, but is certainly less intuitive than the classic approach. The main problem is that in every other fase of the flight, we don't normally use the airbrakes and are thus accustomed to control the speed by altering the pitch. It seems stupid to change that habit on finals.

That's probably why even in France, most instructors seem to go back to the classic approach when teaching in their club. So do I...

[Papa3[_2_]]

On Thursday, October 18, 2018 at 7:16:20 PM UTC-4, Tango Eight wrote:
> On Thursday, October 18, 2018 at 11:43:21 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> > Most power(only) pilots are NPCs.
>
> :7|
>
> T8

Had to check with my teenage son on that one. Spot on! :-)

[Dan Marotta]

I had to look it up.Â* Guess I'm not "hip" any more...

On 10/18/2018 5:16 PM, Tango Eight wrote:
> On Thursday, October 18, 2018 at 11:43:21 AM UTC-4, wrote:
>> Most power(only) pilots are NPCs.
> :7|
>
> T8

--
Dan, 5J

[BobW]

Until they changed the min crossing altitude of the Julian VOR, on wave days,
we routinely lost pilots or in one case while I was flying a glider in the
same area an instructor and student. Pretty sure they got into serious down
air, pulled back to best climb speed in their CE 172. I find the young
airplane only guys I know are frightening in what they do not know. Don't
know how to read clouds, don't understand wind flow in the terrain....
- - - - - -

Warning!!! - Philosophical riff follows...

When I was a wet-behind-the-ears, <150-hour, glider-only, tyro, flying nut, I
had the opportunity to ride along with a power flying buddy sucking
brain-knollich from a one-time Alaska bush pilot. At that time I'd ride with
anyone, greedily slurping through the knollich straw myself. To my (great)
surprise, perhaps 90% of the "generic mountain-centric" - i.e.
non-power-centric - words of wisdom proffered by the bush pilot was "stuff" I
was already aware of through glider instruction and continuing self-education.
(Mercy!)

Some years - and a whole lot of additional personal
mountain-soaring-experience later - a friend gave me a copy of Sparky Imeson's
"Mountain Flying" book...power-centric of course, information-dense, and (IMO)
well worth internalizing despite (for me) not containing very much
glider-centric new knollich/tidbits.

Fairly recently and many more years later (thanks to the web), I learned
Sparky Imeson "had killed himself" while (apparently) engaged in some
thin-margin, (at-least-semi-)mountainous-terrain flying in his
personally-owned airplane. Though I'd never met the man, it saddened and
(further) sobered me to the inherent, unavoidable, risks associated with
flight (of any sort) *near* essentially-immovable things to hit.

"What's your major point?" I hear impatient readers ask. I think I have several...
- It's entirely normal - unavoidable! - for Joe Pilot to progress *away* from
the state of "Beginner's ignorance" and *toward* "Experienced pilot," until
death stops piloting fun.
- That progression's gonna happen *regardless* of Joe Pilot's mindset (e.g.
curious or incurious, prudent or imprudent, etc.).
- It's entirely normal (IMO) for "more experienced pilots" to (eventually)
bemoan the state of affairs of "today's tyros"...but doing so (to me, anyway)
is (choose whichever you wish): more self-indulgent than meaningful?
kinda-sorta off-target?
- YOUR (i.e. Joe Pilot's) mindset *matters* to your continued-survival chances
inside the cockpit. Lots of aphorisms exist addressing this (non-obvious?)
truism (e.g.): Never carry a package by the string. Always have an out/Plan B
(and C and D). Flying is unforgiving of inattention or "general foolishness."
Ignorance can kill. Etc.

With winter approaching in the northern hemisphere, some easy-reading, daily
skimming of (e.g.) the (somewhat-funky/clunky) Kathryn's Report website (with
which I have zero involvement), easily/entertainingly/sadly shines
real-world-light on some of the above obvious (to me, anyway), aphoristic,
generalized, musings. In Joe-Pilot-centric terms, the "vast majority" of
(typically, entirely avoidable) piloting deaths are due to:
ignorance/poor-judgment/off-target or non-internalized training. "Kids, don't
DO those things!!! Your chances of continuing opportunities for additional
stick-hours will be increased by working really hard at having *ONLY* those
sorts of accidents that will fall into the category of, "Man! I wonder
what-in-heck underlies this particular set of fatal piloting circumstances?"

Bob W.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

[Papa3[_2_]]

On Friday, October 19, 2018 at 12:01:12 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> I had to look it up.Â* Guess I'm not "hip" any more...
>
> On 10/18/2018 5:16 PM, Tango Eight wrote:
> > On Thursday, October 18, 2018 at 11:43:21 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> >> Most power(only) pilots are NPCs.
> > :7|
> >
> > T8
>
> --
> Dan, 5J

The very fact that you used the word "hip" means that, by definition, you are not hip :-) Word.

[Dan Marotta]

Effen LOL!

On 10/19/2018 10:35 AM, Papa3 wrote:
> On Friday, October 19, 2018 at 12:01:12 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> I had to look it up.Â* Guess I'm not "hip" any more...
>>
>> On 10/18/2018 5:16 PM, Tango Eight wrote:
>>> On Thursday, October 18, 2018 at 11:43:21 AM UTC-4, wrote:
>>>> Most power(only) pilots are NPCs.
>>> :7|
>>>
>>> T8
>> --
>> Dan, 5J
> The very fact that you used the word "hip" means that, by definition, you are not hip :-) Word.

--
Dan, 5J

[James Betker]

On Friday, October 19, 2018 at 10:31:23 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Effen LOL!
>
> On 10/19/2018 10:35 AM, Papa3 wrote:
> > On Friday, October 19, 2018 at 12:01:12 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> >> I had to look it up.Â* Guess I'm not "hip" any more...
> >>
> >> On 10/18/2018 5:16 PM, Tango Eight wrote:
> >>> On Thursday, October 18, 2018 at 11:43:21 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> >>>> Most power(only) pilots are NPCs.
> >>> :7|
> >>>
> >>> T8
> >> --
> >> Dan, 5J
> > The very fact that you used the word "hip" means that, by definition, you are not hip :-) Word.
>
> --
> Dan, 5J

I think you're expecting a bit much. That question isn't simple by any means - it's pretty close to the classic "how do wings generate lift" question. E.g. it's full people tripping over other people saying the wrong words but thinking the same things.

Anyone with time in a overpowered aircraft or even a powerful model airplane knows that when you crank up the throttle, airspeed rises. This is because flight in general is an energy state equation. If you add more energy into the system either speed or altitude is going to need to increase and in most cases both do. Surely, the fastest way to get it is to transfer potential energy into kinetic with the pitch control. I'm sure if you changed the question: "what is the fastest way to increase airspeed?", more pilots would answer your question "correctly".

Granted - it does seem that most powered (only) guys don't understand the three types of energy and how they relate to one another. Maybe this is what you guys are talking about.

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Friday, October 19, 2018 at 12:30:44 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> Well, the "right answer" is probably not as clear cut as that. For example, the French "blue book" (the official glider training handbook in France) has stated for years that on final, you have to adjust the glide slope by changing the pitch of the airplane and you have to control the airspeed with the airbrakes. That is the exact opposite of what had been taught by the former editions of the book, and there was a storm of protest from most of the "old school" instructors when this was introduced.
>
> The last issue I possess (issue 10) still uses wordings that stress the primary use of pitch to get to the right slope for the final approach, while using the brakes to keep the approach speed constant.
>
> During a flight instructor course at Saint-Auban, we had to be able to apply this method. It works, but is certainly less intuitive than the classic approach. The main problem is that in every other fase of the flight, we don't normally use the airbrakes and are thus accustomed to control the speed by altering the pitch. It seems stupid to change that habit on finals.
>
> That's probably why even in France, most instructors seem to go back to the classic approach when teaching in their club. So do I...

Very interesting, thank you much for sharing! I think I will stay with stick for airspeed and airbrake/throttle for glideslope, works in fix wing or rotor wing.

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Friday, October 19, 2018 at 11:49:20 AM UTC-7, James Betker wrote:
> On Friday, October 19, 2018 at 10:31:23 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > Effen LOL!
> >
> > On 10/19/2018 10:35 AM, Papa3 wrote:
> > > On Friday, October 19, 2018 at 12:01:12 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > >> I had to look it up.Â* Guess I'm not "hip" any more...
> > >>
> > >> On 10/18/2018 5:16 PM, Tango Eight wrote:
> > >>> On Thursday, October 18, 2018 at 11:43:21 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> > >>>> Most power(only) pilots are NPCs.
> > >>> :7|
> > >>>
> > >>> T8
> > >> --
> > >> Dan, 5J
> > > The very fact that you used the word "hip" means that, by definition, you are not hip :-) Word.
> >
> > --
> > Dan, 5J
>
> I think you're expecting a bit much. That question isn't simple by any means - it's pretty close to the classic "how do wings generate lift" question. E.g. it's full people tripping over other people saying the wrong words but thinking the same things.
>
> Anyone with time in a overpowered aircraft or even a powerful model airplane knows that when you crank up the throttle, airspeed rises. This is because flight in general is an energy state equation. If you add more energy into the system either speed or altitude is going to need to increase and in most cases both do. Surely, the fastest way to get it is to transfer potential energy into kinetic with the pitch control. I'm sure if you changed the question: "what is the fastest way to increase airspeed?", more pilots would answer your question "correctly".
>
> Granted - it does seem that most powered (only) guys don't understand the three types of energy and how they relate to one another. Maybe this is what you guys are talking about.

"when you crank up the throttle, airspeed rises." I would respectfully submit that when you add throttle you climb, you pitch to remain at constant altitude which is why the airspeed goes up? I know in a T-33 I would rather depend on pitch than power to recover from impending stall, same with T-6,.... gliders, helicopters.

[James Betker]

On Friday, October 19, 2018 at 8:44:46 PM UTC-7, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> On Friday, October 19, 2018 at 11:49:20 AM UTC-7, James Betker wrote:
> > On Friday, October 19, 2018 at 10:31:23 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > > Effen LOL!
> > >
> > > On 10/19/2018 10:35 AM, Papa3 wrote:
> > > > On Friday, October 19, 2018 at 12:01:12 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > > >> I had to look it up.Â* Guess I'm not "hip" any more...
> > > >>
> > > >> On 10/18/2018 5:16 PM, Tango Eight wrote:
> > > >>> On Thursday, October 18, 2018 at 11:43:21 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> > > >>>> Most power(only) pilots are NPCs.
> > > >>> :7|
> > > >>>
> > > >>> T8
> > > >> --
> > > >> Dan, 5J
> > > > The very fact that you used the word "hip" means that, by definition, you are not hip :-) Word.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Dan, 5J
> >
> > I think you're expecting a bit much. That question isn't simple by any means - it's pretty close to the classic "how do wings generate lift" question. E.g. it's full people tripping over other people saying the wrong words but thinking the same things.
> >
> > Anyone with time in a overpowered aircraft or even a powerful model airplane knows that when you crank up the throttle, airspeed rises. This is because flight in general is an energy state equation. If you add more energy into the system either speed or altitude is going to need to increase and in most cases both do. Surely, the fastest way to get it is to transfer potential energy into kinetic with the pitch control. I'm sure if you changed the question: "what is the fastest way to increase airspeed?", more pilots would answer your question "correctly".
> >
> > Granted - it does seem that most powered (only) guys don't understand the three types of energy and how they relate to one another. Maybe this is what you guys are talking about.
>
> "when you crank up the throttle, airspeed rises." I would respectfully submit that when you add throttle you climb, you pitch to remain at constant altitude which is why the airspeed goes up? I know in a T-33 I would rather depend on pitch than power to recover from impending stall, same with T-6,... gliders, helicopters.

I'm not an aerodynamicist, so I can't say for sure. I just know from what experience I have that planes seem to speed up AND climb when power is added.. I'm sure there's an equation out there somewhere..

Totally agree with you about pitch. Not saying your question has no merit, just that it is worded in a way that might confuse some folks.

[Dan Marotta]

I recall from my Air Force training, a drawing of the total lift curve
and the position of the aircraft along it, and the explanation went
something like this:

When power is applied, the aircraft speed increases causing, an increase
in lift, which causes the aircraft to climb at the trimmed speed.Â*
Reduce power and the speed decreases causing a decrease in lift, which
causes the aircraft to descend at the trimmed speed.Â* In either case,
the speed change was only momentary.Â* If the position of the flight
controls is not changed, power controls altitude.



On 10/21/2018 9:15 AM, James Betker wrote:
> On Friday, October 19, 2018 at 8:44:46 PM UTC-7, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
>> On Friday, October 19, 2018 at 11:49:20 AM UTC-7, James Betker wrote:
>>> On Friday, October 19, 2018 at 10:31:23 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
>>>> Effen LOL!
>>>>
>>>> On 10/19/2018 10:35 AM, Papa3 wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, October 19, 2018 at 12:01:12 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
>>>>>> I had to look it up.Â* Guess I'm not "hip" any more...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 10/18/2018 5:16 PM, Tango Eight wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thursday, October 18, 2018 at 11:43:21 AM UTC-4, wrote:
>>>>>>>> Most power(only) pilots are NPCs.
>>>>>>> :7|
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> T8
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Dan, 5J
>>>>> The very fact that you used the word "hip" means that, by definition, you are not hip :-) Word.
>>>> --
>>>> Dan, 5J
>>> I think you're expecting a bit much. That question isn't simple by any means - it's pretty close to the classic "how do wings generate lift" question. E.g. it's full people tripping over other people saying the wrong words but thinking the same things.
>>>
>>> Anyone with time in a overpowered aircraft or even a powerful model airplane knows that when you crank up the throttle, airspeed rises. This is because flight in general is an energy state equation. If you add more energy into the system either speed or altitude is going to need to increase and in most cases both do. Surely, the fastest way to get it is to transfer potential energy into kinetic with the pitch control. I'm sure if you changed the question: "what is the fastest way to increase airspeed?", more pilots would answer your question "correctly".
>>>
>>> Granted - it does seem that most powered (only) guys don't understand the three types of energy and how they relate to one another. Maybe this is what you guys are talking about.
>> "when you crank up the throttle, airspeed rises." I would respectfully submit that when you add throttle you climb, you pitch to remain at constant altitude which is why the airspeed goes up? I know in a T-33 I would rather depend on pitch than power to recover from impending stall, same with T-6,... gliders, helicopters.
> I'm not an aerodynamicist, so I can't say for sure. I just know from what experience I have that planes seem to speed up AND climb when power is added. I'm sure there's an equation out there somewhere..
>
> Totally agree with you about pitch. Not saying your question has no merit, just that it is worded in a way that might confuse some folks.

--
Dan, 5J

[kirk.stant]

Pitch vs power is a lot more subtle than just pushing the throttle up or pushing the stick forward to speed up; the real answer (IMHO) is "it depends on where on the L/D curve you are". At high speeds and level flight, power is the primary speed control, and unless you are flying an F-16 or Airbus, you will have to adjust your pitch (usually with trim) to compensate for the tendency to climb as speed increases. If you are slow, however, and on the backside of the L/D curve, then pitch has a much greater role in airspeed (actually, AOA) control, while power serves to adjust rate of descent or to maintain altitude, and has much less effect on speed. So on approach, you control your speed with the stick (and trim for the speed), while using power (or the dive brakes in gliders) to adjust you sink rate for the desires approach path.

From personal experience, this works in everything from 2-33s to F-15s.

"Stick and Rudder" covers it well, I believe...

Kirk
66

[Bob Whelan[_3_]]

On 10/21/2018 9:37 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
> I recall from my Air Force training, a drawing of the total lift curve and the
> position of the aircraft along it, and the explanation went something like this:
>
> When power is applied, the aircraft speed increases causing, an increase in
> lift, which causes the aircraft to climb at the trimmed speed. Reduce power
> and the speed decreases causing a decrease in lift, which causes the aircraft
> to descend at the trimmed speed.Â* In either case, the speed change was only
> momentary.Â* If the position of the flight controls is not changed, power
> controls altitude.
>
> On 10/21/2018 9:15 AM, James Betker wrote:
<Snip of intervening discussion...>
>>> "when you crank up the throttle, airspeed rises."Â* I would respectfully
>>> submit that when you add throttle you climb, you pitch to remain at
>>> constant altitude which is why the airspeed goes up?Â* I know in a T-33 I
>>> would rather depend on pitch than power to recover from impending stall,
>>> same with T-6,... gliders, helicopters.
>> I'm not an aerodynamicist, so I can't say for sure. I just know from what
>> experience I have that planes seem to speed up AND climb when power is
>> added. I'm sure there's an equation out there somewhere..
>>
>> Totally agree with you about pitch. Not saying your question has no merit,
>> just that it is worded in a way that might confuse some folks.
>

Dern Dan, your USAF instructors would be proud and gratified to learn you were
paying attention! :)

FWIW, your understanding is the same one I obtained via obtaining an aerospace
engineering degree - lotsa graphs! - and subsequent decades of self-education.
My sense is a lot of pilots tend to (overlook? not-well-grasp?) the sheer
dynamic transience of the phenomenon of a wing generating lift in a dynamic
medium (air) inter-acting with Joe Pilot's inputs (via
stick/throttle/spoilers/etc.).

Bob W.

---
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[Roger Burghall[_2_]]

The original question, "Airspeed, controlled by power or pitch?", surely
has one correct answer: "yes". ;-)

[[email protected]]

In a 747 on approach I use pitch for glide angle and thrust for speed, in a glider I don’t. ;)