Looking for first glider

[Jeff Runciman]

I have been reading the posts and archived posts and
I am looking for some advice on a first glider. I will
be spending quite a bit of time in a 2-22 and should
have my licence in two weeks. Here are my experience
details and performance hopes:

Experience: Private pilots licence 140 hours current
Hang Glider 480 hours current
Glider 3 hours, 18 flights, 8 solo.
Ultralight 42 hours not current.

Performance Hopes: 40:1
Fiberglass
02 system
not scary to fly with
my experience
15 meter (maybe 13 meter
club class)
does not have to have
flaps
later than 1985

Can spend up to 35,000 U.S. dollars with trailer. (maybe
more based on your recomendations. ) Any help would
be appreciated.

Jeff

[Charles Yeates]

You could get a lot of good flying experience in a PW5 for less than you
are willing to spend!!!

Jeff Runciman wrote:
> I have been reading the posts and archived posts and
> I am looking for some advice on a first glider. I will
> be spending quite a bit of time in a 2-22 and should
> have my licence in two weeks. Here are my experience
> details and performance hopes:
>
> Experience: Private pilots licence 140 hours current
> Hang Glider 480 hours current
> Glider 3 hours, 18 flights, 8 solo.
> Ultralight 42 hours not current.
>
> Performance Hopes: 40:1
> Fiberglass
> 02 system
> not scary to fly with
> my experience
> 15 meter (maybe 13 meter
> club class)
> does not have to have
> flaps
> later than 1985
>
> Can spend up to 35,000 U.S. dollars with trailer. (maybe
> more based on your recomendations. ) Any help would
> be appreciated.
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
>

[Ventus B]

Jeff Runciman > wrote in message >...
> I have been reading the posts and archived posts and
> I am looking for some advice on a first glider. I will
> be spending quite a bit of time in a 2-22 and should
> have my licence in two weeks. Here are my experience
> details and performance hopes:
>
> Experience: Private pilots licence 140 hours current
> Hang Glider 480 hours current
> Glider 3 hours, 18 flights, 8 solo.
> Ultralight 42 hours not current.
>
> Performance Hopes: 40:1
> Fiberglass
> 02 system
> not scary to fly with
> my experience
> 15 meter (maybe 13 meter
> club class)
> does not have to have
> flaps
> later than 1985
>
> Can spend up to 35,000 U.S. dollars with trailer. (maybe
> more based on your recomendations. ) Any help would
> be appreciated.
>
> Jeff

Jeff,
You can't go wrong with an LS4 or Discus. Both have great handling.
I don't have much time in a Discus, but I know that the LS4 does not
have any nasty qualities that could haunt you. It thermals like a
home sick angel, is strong as hell, and easy to land. My advice is to
avoid a flapped glider for your first ship. Not that they are
difficult, but most have a landing configuration that could be
troublesome if you are not dead-on with your speed control. I
recommend sticking with typical spoilers rather than flaps or trailing
edge dive brakes for glide path control. And don't get hung up on
whether the glider is made of fiberglass or some other more modern
material (like carbon or kevlar). Many of the glass ships can last
almost forever if they are well cared for. The LS4 is certified for
up to 12,000 hours with proper inspection and maintenance. $35K
should be about right for a decent glass glider and trailer. I think
most Discus gliders might go for more.
Good luck. There are a lot of good gliders out there, and starting
here on RAS is a good place to get lots of opinions on an appropriate
first ship. Just remember that what's good for me may not be good for
you for a number of reasons. One of which is that I'm not a tall
pilot so I fit in just about anything. You may not. And lastly it is
worth mentioning that you should look for a decent panel in your
glider. If you buy a minimal panel, or an obsolete one, you will
spend a LOT of money to modernize it. Have fun! Shopping for the
glider is entertaining of itself.

[solo89]

I just bought an LS4a and am pretty happy with with it (thrilled
actually). I think they're generally a little older than what you're
looking for.

Given your price point, I think you can get the one thing I wanted and
didn't get. That being automatic hookups. Some LS4b's were made with
automatic hookups and some weren't. I think LS4b's are a little hard
to come across.

Good Luck. Owning your own glider is nice.

As a newbie, I'm in no position to give advice. But... a little dual
time in a higher performance trainer might be a good idea.

Doug



Jeff Runciman > wrote in message >...
> I have been reading the posts and archived posts and
> I am looking for some advice on a first glider. I will
> be spending quite a bit of time in a 2-22 and should
> have my licence in two weeks. Here are my experience
> details and performance hopes:
>
> Experience: Private pilots licence 140 hours current
> Hang Glider 480 hours current
> Glider 3 hours, 18 flights, 8 solo.
> Ultralight 42 hours not current.
>
> Performance Hopes: 40:1
> Fiberglass
> 02 system
> not scary to fly with
> my experience
> 15 meter (maybe 13 meter
> club class)
> does not have to have
> flaps
> later than 1985
>
> Can spend up to 35,000 U.S. dollars with trailer. (maybe
> more based on your recomendations. ) Any help would
> be appreciated.
>
> Jeff

[Joseph L. Hyde]

Jeff,

Do not overlook the LS-3. It is a flapped ship but is very docile. Very
good performance (for the price range) and has automatic hook ups. A great
first ship and one that will probable take a while to outgrow.

Joe Hyde


"Jeff Runciman" > wrote in message
...
> I have been reading the posts and archived posts and
> I am looking for some advice on a first glider. I will
> be spending quite a bit of time in a 2-22 and should
> have my licence in two weeks. Here are my experience
> details and performance hopes:
>
> Experience: Private pilots licence 140 hours current
> Hang Glider 480 hours current
> Glider 3 hours, 18 flights, 8 solo.
> Ultralight 42 hours not current.
>
> Performance Hopes: 40:1
> Fiberglass
> 02 system
> not scary to fly with
> my experience
> 15 meter (maybe 13 meter
> club class)
> does not have to have
> flaps
> later than 1985
>
> Can spend up to 35,000 U.S. dollars with trailer. (maybe
> more based on your recomendations. ) Any help would
> be appreciated.
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
>

[Bob Kibby]

I have an SZD-59 ACRO for sale that may be something you might want to
consider. Much more performance than a PW-5 and not that many more $. 15
meter span for cross country with water to 11+ lbs/ft2 and 13.2 meter for
acro if that is your thing. Currently advertised in SSA September Magazine
issue. See http://www.ssa.org/members/johnson/ for a copy of the article
that Dick Johnson wrote on my SZD-59 ACRO. I had 100 hours of glider time
when I purchased "59A". Easy to fly and have been able to accomplish a Gold
Badge with 2 diamonds in "59A".

Bob Kibby



"Jeff Runciman" > wrote in message
...
>I have been reading the posts and archived posts and
> I am looking for some advice on a first glider. I will
> be spending quite a bit of time in a 2-22 and should
> have my licence in two weeks. Here are my experience
> details and performance hopes:
>
> Experience: Private pilots licence 140 hours current
> Hang Glider 480 hours current
> Glider 3 hours, 18 flights, 8 solo.
> Ultralight 42 hours not current.
>
> Performance Hopes: 40:1
> Fiberglass
> 02 system
> not scary to fly with
> my experience
> 15 meter (maybe 13 meter
> club class)
> does not have to have
> flaps
> later than 1985
>
> Can spend up to 35,000 U.S. dollars with trailer. (maybe
> more based on your recomendations. ) Any help would
> be appreciated.
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
>

[Kevin]

Hi Jeff,
While the posters below made some good points, they overlooked the fact
that you are training in a 2-22. These fly nothing like the gliders
they've suggested to you. Your SEL experience will help you, but
please get some time in a G103, K21, Duo, ect. before you fly any of
the ships listed below.

Thanks
Kevin Christner, CFIG

[David Starer]

Good advice except I wouldn't agree that "most (flapped machines) have a
landing configuration that could be troublesome if you are not dead-on with
your speed control". In fact flapped gliders are generally easier to manage
on the approach because they become substantially less slippery once the
landing flaps are deployed, so speed control is easier. Also, small speed
changes equate to large pitch changes with landing flaps down.

The issue for a low-hours pilot is really whether the workload of pulling
the flap lever into the landing position once per flight is too great, and
whether the consequent change in the glider's performance and handling will
give a problem in the latter stages before landing. That depends on the
pilot's skill level, particularly his ability to judge an approach
accurately every single time. What you do with the flaps away from the
airfield really doesn't matter initially, as long as you don't exceed the
limiting speeds. You can learn the more subtle art of optimising the
glider's performance using the flaps once you've got used to the basic
handling.

At the correct approach speeds some standard class gliders such as the LS4
and Discus seem uncomfortably nose-up on the approach to us flapped flyers
and this can result in occasional over-fast approaches by pilots not
accustomed to them. This is not a criticism of these types, just a word of
caution; I'd agree with the recommendation that they are quite suitable as a
first glider, as long as the pilot has some glass-fibre experience
beforehand, such as in a K21, Grob Acro or similar.

David Starer


"Ventus B" > wrote in message
om...
> Jeff Runciman > wrote in message
> >...
>> I have been reading the posts and archived posts and
>> I am looking for some advice on a first glider. I will
>> be spending quite a bit of time in a 2-22 and should
>> have my licence in two weeks. Here are my experience
>> details and performance hopes:
>>
>> Experience: Private pilots licence 140 hours current
>> Hang Glider 480 hours current
>> Glider 3 hours, 18 flights, 8 solo.
>> Ultralight 42 hours not current.
>>
>> Performance Hopes: 40:1
>> Fiberglass
>> 02 system
>> not scary to fly with
>> my experience
>> 15 meter (maybe 13 meter
>> club class)
>> does not have to have
>> flaps
>> later than 1985
>>
>> Can spend up to 35,000 U.S. dollars with trailer. (maybe
>> more based on your recomendations. ) Any help would
>> be appreciated.
>>
>> Jeff
>
> Jeff,
> You can't go wrong with an LS4 or Discus. Both have great handling.
> I don't have much time in a Discus, but I know that the LS4 does not
> have any nasty qualities that could haunt you. It thermals like a
> home sick angel, is strong as hell, and easy to land. My advice is to
> avoid a flapped glider for your first ship. Not that they are
> difficult, but most have a landing configuration that could be
> troublesome if you are not dead-on with your speed control. I
> recommend sticking with typical spoilers rather than flaps or trailing
> edge dive brakes for glide path control. And don't get hung up on
> whether the glider is made of fiberglass or some other more modern
> material (like carbon or kevlar). Many of the glass ships can last
> almost forever if they are well cared for. The LS4 is certified for
> up to 12,000 hours with proper inspection and maintenance. $35K
> should be about right for a decent glass glider and trailer. I think
> most Discus gliders might go for more.
> Good luck. There are a lot of good gliders out there, and starting
> here on RAS is a good place to get lots of opinions on an appropriate
> first ship. Just remember that what's good for me may not be good for
> you for a number of reasons. One of which is that I'm not a tall
> pilot so I fit in just about anything. You may not. And lastly it is
> worth mentioning that you should look for a decent panel in your
> glider. If you buy a minimal panel, or an obsolete one, you will
> spend a LOT of money to modernize it. Have fun! Shopping for the
> glider is entertaining of itself.

[Mark James Boyd]

In article >,
Jeff Runciman > wrote:
>I have been reading the posts and archived posts and
>I am looking for some advice on a first glider. I will
>be spending quite a bit of time in a 2-22 and should
>have my licence in two weeks. Here are my experience
>details and performance hopes:
>
>Experience: Private pilots licence 140 hours current
>Hang Glider 480 hours current
>Glider 3 hours, 18 flights, 8 solo.
>Ultralight 42 hours not current.
>
>Performance Hopes: 40:1
>Fiberglass
>02 system
>not scary to fly with
>my experience
>15 meter (maybe 13 meter
>club class)
>does not have to have
>flaps
>later than 1985
>
>Can spend up to 35,000 U.S. dollars with trailer. (maybe
>more based on your recomendations. ) Any help would
>be appreciated.
>
>Jeff

http://www.wingsandwheels.com/want_ads.htm
lists some gliders, fun to shop there.

Beyond that, everyone here has given sound advice so far (get
some higher performance dual, LS-4 is nice, automatic hookups,
etc.). So I'll echo their comments but add some buyer/owner
tips.

Sometimes it's easier or better to get something you know.
The local pilots can tell you a lot about their ships. And they'll
come in real handy when you want parts and advice. There are quite
a few gliders in your range, and your happiness may depend
more on support of pals and parts than a few points of L/D.

So a Pegasus or Russia AC-4c or Discus/Ventus/ASW
may all suit your tastes, but if you can find
one of these locally, that's good. You can assemble/disassemble,
ask about quirks, get in it for fit and comfort, etc. Maybe
you'll really love light wings for assembly. Maybe you can't
read yiddish so the instruments are yucky. Or maybe it looks like a
ugly blunt nose thing. Or maybe the interior is tacky.

Flying something before you buy is also real helpful. Some
gliders have crappy ventilation, and I fly in 100+ degrees.
Some have lousy vis, or come with a hella backbreaking parachute...

Beyond that, I wouldn't dream of owning any vehicle until
I'd compared likely insurance rates and read the POH. Beyond that,
since you are probably in USA, the accident reports by type
are available. http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/query.asp
Look a bit, and if you notice a lot of a particular kind of
accident, or a high rate in general, then keep that in mind.
The insurance quote will likely reflect this. And these
accidents will be things you'll want to look for preventing.
Are the accident causing ADs complied with? Does it have
gear warning system or maybe auto hookup connections? Etc...

I see Pegasi in the 1985 range at W&W. There's a bunch of other
stuff, including flapped ASW-20s there too. ASW-19, Grob 102,
flapped PIKs, some LSs, etc. I know the Pegasi are reasonably
easy to insure, and do ok. Again, best if you can find someone
local and look at their glider first tho...

P.S. If this is my BROTHER Jeff using an alias, disregard all
of this and buy a 2-22 for $1000. Then take the rest of the money
and treat yourself and your brother to a one-month European
gliding holiday...followed by a week in Minden, California
(easy Al, easy) :P
--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA

[Willie]

Jeff Runciman > wrote in message >...
> I have been reading the posts and archived posts and
> I am looking for some advice on a first glider.
>
> Can spend up to 35,000 U.S. dollars with trailer. (maybe
> more based on your recomendations. ) Any help would
> be appreciated.
>
> Jeff

Take a look at the Alisport Silent 2
It offers good performance similar to or better than a PW5
or Russia and is available new. I own the original club version
and am very pleased with it's performance. My ship climbs as well
or better than any of the 15 meter glass birds and I stay up on
weak lift days very easily.

There are more considerations than just L/D when it comes to
buying your first ship. The wings are lighter and it assembles easily,
and with the shorter wings fits in the hanger nicely.

I preferred buying new fiberglass over a 20+ year old ship.
most (all) of the used ones I looked at had crazing and cracks in the
gel coat, and paying for a refinish would have made the costs too
high.

I'm not selling them, I am just a satisfied owner. I don't fly competition
but I can fly my Silent cross country very easily knowing it will land in
a smaller field and at a slower speed than some of the higher performance
racing sailplanes.

http://www.alisport.com

Willie
Silent 39 - (EK)

[Kirk Stant]

One more thing: Make sure it has a REALLY NICE TRAILER. Nothing will
make the soaring experience sour quicker than having to struggle with
a goofy, poorly designed trailer.

Make sure you take the time to rig and derig any gliders you are
thinking of buying - preferably with an experience glider pilot friend
along to point out things you may not notice.

Remember, instruments and parachutes can be replaced or upgraded, but
you will have to live with that trailer for a while!

Kirk

[Pete Reinhart]

Jeff,
Buy a nice LS-4!
It's well in your budget range.
Many have been refinished and upgraded.
Almost all will come with useable instruments, radio, etc.,and usually a
good trailer.
They have earned many accolades for exceptional handling and benign flying
qualities.
They hold their value far better than almost any other glider and there is
always a buyer waiting in rhe wings when you are ready to move on.
Resale is an important consideration.
You can use the money left over in your budget for lots of tows, upgrades
or, you could just send it to your favorite charity.
Cheers!, Pete

"Kirk Stant" > wrote in message
om...
> One more thing: Make sure it has a REALLY NICE TRAILER. Nothing will
> make the soaring experience sour quicker than having to struggle with
> a goofy, poorly designed trailer.
>
> Make sure you take the time to rig and derig any gliders you are
> thinking of buying - preferably with an experience glider pilot friend
> along to point out things you may not notice.
>
> Remember, instruments and parachutes can be replaced or upgraded, but
> you will have to live with that trailer for a while!
>
> Kirk

[Stewart Kissel]

At 18:18 07 September 2004, Kirk Stant wrote:
>One more thing: Make sure it has a REALLY NICE TRAILER.
>

Ditto on the trailer...and automatic hookups. Remember
with hotelliers...if you rig correctly 99.9% of the
time...u crash.

[Mark Brown]

Stewart,

Do you tie your own shoelaces? Or do you still wear
velcro shoes to avoid the danger of getting it wrong
01% of the time?

Automatic hookups are nice yes, but nothing is 100%
guaranteed. Hotelliers take a little longer and are
a little more fiddly but they aren't the factor on
which a glider should/shouldnt be bought.

Trailer is though!! ;-)

At 05:24 08 September 2004, Stewart Kissel wrote:
>At 18:18 07 September 2004, Kirk Stant wrote:
>>One more thing: Make sure it has a REALLY NICE TRAILER.
>>
>
>Ditto on the trailer...and automatic hookups. Remember
>with hotelliers...if you rig correctly 99.9% of the
>time...u crash.
>
>
>
>

[Brad]

Check out the Apis 13 or 15 meter sailplanes. I own a 13m and have a
partnership in a 15m.........both are well made, good performing
sailplanes. You would be quite happy with either one.

Brad





Jeff Runciman > wrote in message >...
> I have been reading the posts and archived posts and
> I am looking for some advice on a first glider. I will
> be spending quite a bit of time in a 2-22 and should
> have my licence in two weeks. Here are my experience
> details and performance hopes:
>
> Experience: Private pilots licence 140 hours current
> Hang Glider 480 hours current
> Glider 3 hours, 18 flights, 8 solo.
> Ultralight 42 hours not current.
>
> Performance Hopes: 40:1
> Fiberglass
> 02 system
> not scary to fly with
> my experience
> 15 meter (maybe 13 meter
> club class)
> does not have to have
> flaps
> later than 1985
>
> Can spend up to 35,000 U.S. dollars with trailer. (maybe
> more based on your recomendations. ) Any help would
> be appreciated.
>
> Jeff

[Marc Ramsey]

Mark Brown wrote:
> Automatic hookups are nice yes, but nothing is 100%
> guaranteed. Hotelliers take a little longer and are
> a little more fiddly but they aren't the factor on
> which a glider should/shouldnt be bought.

There are most certainly a factor for me (and many others). I will no
longer buy a glider which has manual hookups (except for one of those
vintage jobs I've been lusting after, and won't be flying frequently).
I know I'm unlikely to get them right 100% of the time.

Over the past 15 years I've been acquainted with at least six or seven
careful and experienced pilots who have managed to take off with a
Hotellier fitting disconnected. Three dead, one unable to fly or walk,
one with permanent leg damage.

I know one person who had an in-flight failure of an automatic hookup,
and that was a flaperon fitting on an LS-3 (which can barely be
considered automatic). She managed to bail out.

The odds look pretty clear to me...

Marc

[Eric Greenwell]

Mark Brown wrote:
> Stewart,
>
> Do you tie your own shoelaces? Or do you still wear
> velcro shoes to avoid the danger of getting it wrong
> 01% of the time?
>
> Automatic hookups are nice yes, but nothing is 100%
> guaranteed. Hotelliers take a little longer and are
> a little more fiddly but they aren't the factor on
> which a glider should/shouldnt be bought.

It is for me. After 5000 hours, I know what I can and can't do reliably.
If you don't make mistakes with details, or don't expect to keep the
glider for more than a couple hundred hours, then maybe manual hookups
are OK.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

[Stewart Kissel]

At 10:00 08 September 2004, Mark Brown wrote:
>Stewart,
>
>Do you tie your own shoelaces?

Yep, and I trip on them if they come undone.

Or do you still wear
>velcro shoes to avoid the danger of getting it wrong
>01% of the time?
>
>Automatic hookups are nice yes, but nothing is 100%
>guaranteed. Hotelliers take a little longer and are
>a little more fiddly but they aren't the factor on
>which a glider should/shouldnt be bought.


Don't want to start a flame war here, but I have to
disagree. Affordable ships on the used market come
with automatic hookups...and not only do they make
things safer...but with a self-rigger one does not
need assistance...which means more flying for some
of us who fly from remote airports.
>Trailer is though!! ;-)
>
>At 05:24 08 September 2004, Stewart Kissel wrote:
>>At 18:18 07 September 2004, Kirk Stant wrote:
>>>One more thing: Make sure it has a REALLY NICE TRAILER.
>>>
>>
>>Ditto on the trailer...and automatic hookups. Remember
>>with hotelliers...if you rig correctly 99.9% of the
>>time...u crash.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>