Looking for A-14 (or similar) pressure breathing diluter demand regulator

[Keith Schwab]

Hi Everyone!
I'm looking for an A-14 regulator, or something similar, to prepare for higher altitude wave flights in the Sierra. Curious if anyone has an one laying around they might be willing to part with or lend for a season.
Thanks!
Keith

[Nick Kennedy[_3_]]

Craggy Aero, in his used equipment page, may have a regulator you might like.

[JS[_5_]]

On Tuesday, October 30, 2018 at 2:32:17 PM UTC-7, Keith Schwab wrote:
> Hi Everyone!
> I'm looking for an A-14 regulator, or something similar, to prepare for higher altitude wave flights in the Sierra. Curious if anyone has an one laying around they might be willing to part with or lend for a season.
> Thanks!
> Keith
>
>

There's a new A-14 regulator on Amazon.
https://www.amazon.com/5505-3000-Type-Diluter-Pressure-Regulator/dp/B014JRBXDW
Jim

[Keith Schwab]

On Tuesday, October 30, 2018 at 3:54:18 PM UTC-7, JS wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 30, 2018 at 2:32:17 PM UTC-7, Keith Schwab wrote:
> > Hi Everyone!
> > I'm looking for an A-14 regulator, or something similar, to prepare for higher altitude wave flights in the Sierra. Curious if anyone has an one laying around they might be willing to part with or lend for a season.
> > Thanks!
> > Keith
> >
> >
>
> There's a new A-14 regulator on Amazon.
> https://www.amazon.com/5505-3000-Type-Diluter-Pressure-Regulator/dp/B014JRBXDW
> Jim

Hi Jim,
Talking with Britton last year, I think this one is too old to be refurbished by Fluid Power.
Best,
Keith

[JS[_5_]]

On Tuesday, October 30, 2018 at 4:21:34 PM UTC-7, Keith Schwab wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 30, 2018 at 3:54:18 PM UTC-7, JS wrote:
> > On Tuesday, October 30, 2018 at 2:32:17 PM UTC-7, Keith Schwab wrote:
> > > Hi Everyone!
> > > I'm looking for an A-14 regulator, or something similar, to prepare for higher altitude wave flights in the Sierra. Curious if anyone has an one laying around they might be willing to part with or lend for a season.
> > > Thanks!
> > > Keith
> > >
> > >
> >
> > There's a new A-14 regulator on Amazon.
> > https://www.amazon.com/5505-3000-Type-Diluter-Pressure-Regulator/dp/B014JRBXDW
> > Jim
>
> Hi Jim,
> Talking with Britton last year, I think this one is too old to be refurbished by Fluid Power.
> Best,
> Keith

Bugger.
If not looking for multiple lennies, Mountain High appear to have a more modern and compact system. The A34 is rated to 28,000'. Call them for details.
Those antique A-8s aren't the right tool for the job.
Jim

[Keith Schwab]

On Tuesday, October 30, 2018 at 4:52:19 PM UTC-7, JS wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 30, 2018 at 4:21:34 PM UTC-7, Keith Schwab wrote:
> > On Tuesday, October 30, 2018 at 3:54:18 PM UTC-7, JS wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, October 30, 2018 at 2:32:17 PM UTC-7, Keith Schwab wrote:
> > > > Hi Everyone!
> > > > I'm looking for an A-14 regulator, or something similar, to prepare for higher altitude wave flights in the Sierra. Curious if anyone has an one laying around they might be willing to part with or lend for a season.
> > > > Thanks!
> > > > Keith
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > There's a new A-14 regulator on Amazon.
> > > https://www.amazon.com/5505-3000-Type-Diluter-Pressure-Regulator/dp/B014JRBXDW
> > > Jim
> >
> > Hi Jim,
> > Talking with Britton last year, I think this one is too old to be refurbished by Fluid Power.
> > Best,
> > Keith
>
> Bugger.
> If not looking for multiple lennies, Mountain High appear to have a more modern and compact system. The A34 is rated to 28,000'. Call them for details.
> Those antique A-8s aren't the right tool for the job.
> Jim

Thanks Jim....working on my double lennie.

[Craig Funston[_3_]]

On Tuesday, October 30, 2018 at 5:09:33 PM UTC-7, Keith Schwab wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 30, 2018 at 4:52:19 PM UTC-7, JS wrote:
> > On Tuesday, October 30, 2018 at 4:21:34 PM UTC-7, Keith Schwab wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, October 30, 2018 at 3:54:18 PM UTC-7, JS wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, October 30, 2018 at 2:32:17 PM UTC-7, Keith Schwab wrote:
> > > > > Hi Everyone!
> > > > > I'm looking for an A-14 regulator, or something similar, to prepare for higher altitude wave flights in the Sierra. Curious if anyone has an one laying around they might be willing to part with or lend for a season.
> > > > > Thanks!
> > > > > Keith
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > There's a new A-14 regulator on Amazon.
> > > > https://www.amazon.com/5505-3000-Type-Diluter-Pressure-Regulator/dp/B014JRBXDW
> > > > Jim
> > >
> > > Hi Jim,
> > > Talking with Britton last year, I think this one is too old to be refurbished by Fluid Power.
> > > Best,
> > > Keith
> >
> > Bugger.
> > If not looking for multiple lennies, Mountain High appear to have a more modern and compact system. The A34 is rated to 28,000'. Call them for details.
> > Those antique A-8s aren't the right tool for the job.
> > Jim
>
> Thanks Jim....working on my double lennie.

Keith,

I have a Puritan Bennett 112145-A that I'm not currently using. I don't want to sell it, but we may be able to work out a deal. PM me. nimbus3mail at the giant search engine.

Cheers,
Craig Funston

[Keith Schwab]

On Tuesday, October 30, 2018 at 5:38:47 PM UTC-7, Craig Funston wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 30, 2018 at 5:09:33 PM UTC-7, Keith Schwab wrote:
> > On Tuesday, October 30, 2018 at 4:52:19 PM UTC-7, JS wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, October 30, 2018 at 4:21:34 PM UTC-7, Keith Schwab wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, October 30, 2018 at 3:54:18 PM UTC-7, JS wrote:
> > > > > On Tuesday, October 30, 2018 at 2:32:17 PM UTC-7, Keith Schwab wrote:
> > > > > > Hi Everyone!
> > > > > > I'm looking for an A-14 regulator, or something similar, to prepare for higher altitude wave flights in the Sierra. Curious if anyone has an one laying around they might be willing to part with or lend for a season.
> > > > > > Thanks!
> > > > > > Keith
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > There's a new A-14 regulator on Amazon.
> > > > > https://www.amazon.com/5505-3000-Type-Diluter-Pressure-Regulator/dp/B014JRBXDW
> > > > > Jim
> > > >
> > > > Hi Jim,
> > > > Talking with Britton last year, I think this one is too old to be refurbished by Fluid Power.
> > > > Best,
> > > > Keith
> > >
> > > Bugger.
> > > If not looking for multiple lennies, Mountain High appear to have a more modern and compact system. The A34 is rated to 28,000'. Call them for details.
> > > Those antique A-8s aren't the right tool for the job.
> > > Jim
> >
> > Thanks Jim....working on my double lennie.
>
> Keith,
>
> I have a Puritan Bennett 112145-A that I'm not currently using. I don't want to sell it, but we may be able to work out a deal. PM me. nimbus3mail at the giant search engine.
>
> Cheers,
> Craig Funston

Thanks Craig

[Dan Marotta]

Properly maintained or overhauled and an A-8 or an A-14 will work just
fine.Â* People still fly "antique" aircraft, after all...

On 10/30/2018 5:52 PM, JS wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 30, 2018 at 4:21:34 PM UTC-7, Keith Schwab wrote:
>> On Tuesday, October 30, 2018 at 3:54:18 PM UTC-7, JS wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, October 30, 2018 at 2:32:17 PM UTC-7, Keith Schwab wrote:
>>>> Hi Everyone!
>>>> I'm looking for an A-14 regulator, or something similar, to prepare for higher altitude wave flights in the Sierra. Curious if anyone has an one laying around they might be willing to part with or lend for a season.
>>>> Thanks!
>>>> Keith
>>>>
>>>>
>>> There's a new A-14 regulator on Amazon.
>>> https://www.amazon.com/5505-3000-Type-Diluter-Pressure-Regulator/dp/B014JRBXDW
>>> Jim
>> Hi Jim,
>> Talking with Britton last year, I think this one is too old to be refurbished by Fluid Power.
>> Best,
>> Keith
> Bugger.
> If not looking for multiple lennies, Mountain High appear to have a more modern and compact system. The A34 is rated to 28,000'. Call them for details.
> Those antique A-8s aren't the right tool for the job.
> Jim

--
Dan, 5J

[SoaringXCellence]

Dan,

The problem is finding anyone with the rebuild parts for the A-8. I've been told that they are no longer available, unless someone has a good set hidden away. I have two A-8 regulators, but I can't even give them away without an overhaul.

MB

[Dan Marotta]

I guess times have changed.Â* I got two vintage regulators from a museum
where my brother worked.Â* Using those two and a car inner tube for a
diaphragm, I made a serviceable regulator.Â* I flew with it for several
years in Colorado.Â* I don't think I ever took it above 18,000', however.

On 10/31/2018 2:15 PM, SoaringXCellence wrote:
> Dan,
>
> The problem is finding anyone with the rebuild parts for the A-8. I've been told that they are no longer available, unless someone has a good set hidden away. I have two A-8 regulators, but I can't even give them away without an overhaul.
>
> MB

--
Dan, 5J

[JS[_5_]]

On Wednesday, October 31, 2018 at 3:15:54 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> I guess times have changed.Â* I got two vintage regulators from a museum
> where my brother worked.Â* Using those two and a car inner tube for a
> diaphragm, I made a serviceable regulator.Â* I flew with it for several
> years in Colorado.Â* I don't think I ever took it above 18,000', however.
>
> On 10/31/2018 2:15 PM, SoaringXCellence wrote:
> > Dan,
> >
> > The problem is finding anyone with the rebuild parts for the A-8. I've been told that they are no longer available, unless someone has a good set hidden away. I have two A-8 regulators, but I can't even give them away without an overhaul.
> >
> > MB
>
> --
> Dan, 5J

At least time of useful consciousness at double lennie height doesn't give much time to rethink "penny wise, pound foolish" decisions.
Jim

[Dan Marotta]

Not penny wise, just the efforts of someone who likes to "find a way"
and knows what he's capable of and what not to try.Â* I've had a cabin
pressure loss at FL450 so I know how pressure breathing feels.

On 10/31/2018 4:25 PM, JS wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 31, 2018 at 3:15:54 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> I guess times have changed.Â* I got two vintage regulators from a museum
>> where my brother worked.Â* Using those two and a car inner tube for a
>> diaphragm, I made a serviceable regulator.Â* I flew with it for several
>> years in Colorado.Â* I don't think I ever took it above 18,000', however.
>>
>> On 10/31/2018 2:15 PM, SoaringXCellence wrote:
>>> Dan,
>>>
>>> The problem is finding anyone with the rebuild parts for the A-8. I've been told that they are no longer available, unless someone has a good set hidden away. I have two A-8 regulators, but I can't even give them away without an overhaul.
>>>
>>> MB
>> --
>> Dan, 5J
> At least time of useful consciousness at double lennie height doesn't give much time to rethink "penny wise, pound foolish" decisions.
> Jim

--
Dan, 5J

[AS]

On Wednesday, October 31, 2018 at 4:15:59 PM UTC-4, SoaringXCellence wrote:
> Dan,
>
> The problem is finding anyone with the rebuild parts for the A-8. I've been told that they are no longer available, unless someone has a good set hidden away. I have two A-8 regulators, but I can't even give them away without an overhaul.
>
> MB

I had the A8A in my Libelle rebuilt and yellow-tagged more than 30 years ago. The shop said they used their last good bourdon tube on it, so they were officially out of the A8A rebuilding business. The parts situation has most likely not improved since then, so I think it is time to retire these old devices.
Uli
'AS'

[Scott Williams]

On Wednesday, October 31, 2018 at 9:37:37 PM UTC-5, AS wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 31, 2018 at 4:15:59 PM UTC-4, SoaringXCellence wrote:
> > Dan,
> >
> > The problem is finding anyone with the rebuild parts for the A-8. I've been told that they are no longer available, unless someone has a good set hidden away. I have two A-8 regulators, but I can't even give them away without an overhaul.
> >
> > MB
>
> I had the A8A in my Libelle rebuilt and yellow-tagged more than 30 years ago. The shop said they used their last good bourdon tube on it, so they were officially out of the A8A rebuilding business. The parts situation has most likely not improved since then, so I think it is time to retire these old devices.
> Uli
> 'AS'

Available new from Fluid power, Hudson Ohio.

[Tango Eight]

I'm just going to drop this little nugget here.

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/265036.php

Everyone gets to make their own choices.

T8

[AS]

On Thursday, November 1, 2018 at 11:06:00 AM UTC-4, Scott Williams wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 31, 2018 at 9:37:37 PM UTC-5, AS wrote:
> > On Wednesday, October 31, 2018 at 4:15:59 PM UTC-4, SoaringXCellence wrote:
> > > Dan,
> > >
> > > The problem is finding anyone with the rebuild parts for the A-8. I've been told that they are no longer available, unless someone has a good set hidden away. I have two A-8 regulators, but I can't even give them away without an overhaul.
> > >
> > > MB
> >
> > I had the A8A in my Libelle rebuilt and yellow-tagged more than 30 years ago. The shop said they used their last good bourdon tube on it, so they were officially out of the A8A rebuilding business. The parts situation has most likely not improved since then, so I think it is time to retire these old devices.
> > Uli
> > 'AS'
>
> Available new from Fluid power, Hudson Ohio.

Scott - I see brand new A14s offered for sale on their web-site but no new A8As. Even doing a key-word search does not return a hit. Maybe they are able to recondition an A8A.
Sorry for the thread-drift!
Uli
'AS'

[Scott Williams]

On Thursday, November 1, 2018 at 12:40:23 PM UTC-5, AS wrote:
> On Thursday, November 1, 2018 at 11:06:00 AM UTC-4, Scott Williams wrote:
> > On Wednesday, October 31, 2018 at 9:37:37 PM UTC-5, AS wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, October 31, 2018 at 4:15:59 PM UTC-4, SoaringXCellence wrote:
> > > > Dan,
> > > >
> > > > The problem is finding anyone with the rebuild parts for the A-8. I've been told that they are no longer available, unless someone has a good set hidden away. I have two A-8 regulators, but I can't even give them away without an overhaul.
> > > >
> > > > MB
> > >
> > > I had the A8A in my Libelle rebuilt and yellow-tagged more than 30 years ago. The shop said they used their last good bourdon tube on it, so they were officially out of the A8A rebuilding business. The parts situation has most likely not improved since then, so I think it is time to retire these old devices.
> > > Uli
> > > 'AS'
> >
> > Available new from Fluid power, Hudson Ohio.
>
> Scott - I see brand new A14s offered for sale on their web-site but no new A8As. Even doing a key-word search does not return a hit. Maybe they are able to recondition an A8A.
> Sorry for the thread-drift!
> Uli
> 'AS'

OP asked for an A-14
Scott

[Duster[_2_]]

You know what you're doing it seems, but if you're planning on using the MH and A14 systems together look over the NTSB accident report (WPR09FA089). Though the probable cause of this incident was not pinned on any failure of the MH/A14 dual setup, they seem to have spent considerable effort looking into it in the >200 page document. Not trying to scare anyone, just that there's some practical things worth implementing from it. The pilot had previously set a state altitude record around 33K' and on this flight was above 38K' when something went wrong. He appeared to be a very experienced, but quite cautious, pilot.

The issue with the U2 pilots was that they were wearing uninflated suits in a cabin pressure way too low. Even 100% oxygen is insufficient at high-enough altitudes (The USAF has since increased their minimum cabin pressure). Caution is well-noted as several glider pilots suffered chronically after they repeatedly sought altitude records. Good reading is the recent Soaring Mag article on oxygen use.

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, October 30, 2018 at 2:32:17 PM UTC-7, Keith Schwab wrote:
> Hi Everyone!
> I'm looking for an A-14 regulator, or something similar, to prepare for higher altitude wave flights in the Sierra. Curious if anyone has an one laying around they might be willing to part with or lend for a season.
> Thanks!
> Keith
>
>

I have one but it hasn't been used in well over decade at least - another club member was changing to the EDS system and offered me his A-14, mask and bailout bottle for a handful of coin of the realm. I have no idea when it was last checked or overhauled so I wouldn't think it a good idea to use it as is. Anyone know what an average overhaul cost is on one?

[Tango Eight]

On Friday, November 2, 2018 at 6:55:07 PM UTC-4, Duster wrote:

> The issue with the U2 pilots was that they were wearing uninflated suits in a cabin pressure way too low.

Okay... you're an insider then? Can you please amplify?

This isn't a great topic to speculate about.

Here are the facts as I know them:

The suit is backup for cabin pressure failure, only.

Nominal cabin pressure is 29K.

Pilot is on 100% ox (from two hours before takeoff).

This isn't a hypoxia problem.

The inference that can be drawn is that neurological DCS is more insidious than most realize. That was the point of linking the article.

T8

[BobW]

On 11/3/2018 7:51 AM, Tango Eight wrote:
> On Friday, November 2, 2018 at 6:55:07 PM UTC-4, Duster wrote:
>
>> The issue with the U2 pilots was that they were wearing uninflated suits
>> in a cabin pressure way too low.
>
> Okay... you're an insider then? Can you please amplify?
>
> This isn't a great topic to speculate about.
>
> Here are the facts as I know them:
>
> The suit is backup for cabin pressure failure, only.
>
> Nominal cabin pressure is 29K.
>
> Pilot is on 100% ox (from two hours before takeoff).
>
> This isn't a hypoxia problem.
>
> The inference that can be drawn is that neurological DCS is more insidious
> than most realize. That was the point of linking the article.
>
> T8

Some time in the past two months I happened to watch (on YouTube) a
(non-USAF, I seem to recall) nominally hour-long program on precisely this
issue. It named names, and included interview snippets of some of the key
principals - U2 pilots - involved. I *think* it was filmed ca. 2012-ish...as
in after confirmation of the info in TB's linked article, but wouldn't bet my
retirement on that being an accurate remembrance...but I seem to remember it
stating to the effect: "certain medically-detectable
brain-differences/potential-anomalies have been noted in former U2 pilots."

I would bet *some* of my retirement on the accuracy of remembering that ca.
2003 the USAF changed the cabin pressure of U2s from 29k to the 10k range.
Regrettably I don't remember the name of the program, and leave it to the
interested reader to ferret a link out for personal use...

Bob W.

P.S. By way of hoping to head-off RAS Thread Nazis (and I've occasionally been
one of 'em), I'll note I used - in pre EDS days - an A14-based system to soar
to ~31k feet...one time, without a backup system, and more than quite enough
for my then-somewhat-youthful risk tolerance.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

[[email protected]]

BobW: More recent than that, around 2012 or so.

T8: But you can be hypoxic even breathing pure oxygen. Yes, I was part (albeit in a small role) of the research team that lead to a series of articles on identifying white matter lesions in U2 pilots using MRI. These and other published studies convinced the Air Force to change the U2 cabin pressure from ~30K' to ~15K' (similar to Perlan II) fairly recently in a program called "C.A.R.E.". Although these brain lesions can arise via different mechanisms, they are reminiscent of damage resulting from emboli or clots. While the lower cockpit pressure had been used for many decades, one theory is that after 911, these pilots flew more frequently, for longer sorties and were tasked heavily both physically and mentally than previously. And, no, hypoxia is a problem in those conditions. Breathing 100% O2 at sea level is vastly different physiologically than at extreme altitudes since the absolute alveolar PO2 value needs to be at least ~14kPa. Even at less extreme heights breathing 100% oxygen is about as efficient as breathing air at around 12,000ft. Robert Harris for his 1986 49,009ft altitude record flew in an unpressurized Grob 102. He was forced to come down when his O2 system started to fail, apparently suffering from medical issues for some time thereafter.

Original article:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3723460/pdf/nihms488856.pdf

[Tango Eight]

On Saturday, November 3, 2018 at 9:27:22 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> BobW: More recent than that, around 2012 or so.
>
> T8: But you can be hypoxic even breathing pure oxygen. Yes, I was part (albeit in a small role) of the research team that lead to a series of articles on identifying white matter lesions in U2 pilots using MRI. These and other published studies convinced the Air Force to change the U2 cabin pressure from ~30K' to ~15K' (similar to Perlan II) fairly recently in a program called "C.A.R.E.". Although these brain lesions can arise via different mechanisms, they are reminiscent of damage resulting from emboli or clots. While the lower cockpit pressure had been used for many decades, one theory is that after 911, these pilots flew more frequently, for longer sorties and were tasked heavily both physically and mentally than previously. And, no, hypoxia is a problem in those conditions. Breathing 100% O2 at sea level is vastly different physiologically than at extreme altitudes since the absolute alveolar PO2 value needs to be at least ~14kPa. Even at less extreme heights breathing 100% oxygen is about as efficient as breathing air at around 12,000ft. Robert Harris for his 1986 49,009ft altitude record flew in an unpressurized Grob 102. He was forced to come down when his O2 system started to fail, apparently suffering from medical issues for some time thereafter.
>
> Original article:
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3723460/pdf/nihms488856.pdf

Thanks for that!

Following some links, I ran across this statement:
"The DCS risk per [high U2] flight was 0.076% from 1994-2005 but increased to 0.23% from 2006-2010."

That is to say, not terribly common, but not very darned rare.

T8

[BobW]

On 11/3/2018 7:27 PM, wrote:
> BobW: More recent than that, around 2012 or so.

Thanks for the time-correction...(and not taking me up on my possible bet;
good thing I might've bet only *part* of my retirement!).
>
> T8: But you can be hypoxic even breathing pure oxygen. Yes, I was part (albeit in a small role) of the research team that lead to a series of articles on identifying white matter lesions in U2 pilots using MRI. These and other published studies convinced the Air Force to change the U2 cabin pressure from ~30K' to ~15K' (similar to Perlan II) fairly recently in a program called "C.A.R.E.". Although these brain lesions can arise via different mechanisms, they are reminiscent of damage resulting from emboli or clots. While the lower cockpit pressure had been used for many decades, one theory is that after 911, these pilots flew more frequently, for longer sorties and were tasked heavily both physically and mentally than previously. And, no, hypoxia is a problem in those conditions. Breathing 100% O2 at sea level is vastly different physiologically than at extreme altitudes since the absolute alveolar PO2 value needs to be at least ~14kPa. Even at less extreme heights breathing 100% oxygen is about as efficient as breathing air at around 12,000ft. Robert Harris for his 1986 49,009ft altitude record flew in an unpressurized Grob 102. He was forced to come down when his O2 system started to fail, apparently suffering from medical issues for some time thereafter.
>
> Original article:
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3723460/pdf/nihms488856.pdf
And thanks for the link (not yet absorbed). More knowledge definitely more
better...

Bob W.


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[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, October 30, 2018 at 2:32:17 PM UTC-7, Keith Schwab wrote:
> Hi Everyone!
> I'm looking for an A-14 regulator, or something similar, to prepare for higher altitude wave flights in the Sierra. Curious if anyone has an one laying around they might be willing to part with or lend for a season.
> Thanks!
> Keith
>
>

Following up on Keith's post, I've done a lot of work investigating A14 regulators as I too am interested in getting equipped to fly high the Sierra wave. I'll spare you all the gory details of my research but here follow the key points to consider. I also found a line on several "NS", new surplus, A14s that meet all the the requirements for safe use and I will be glad to hook up interested pilots. Getting quantity and pricing info now.

A14 Issues
* vintage units use Radium-226 paint and are no longer legal. No one will work on these even if brand new.
* vintage units were only rated for 500 psi maximum inlet pressure and had a brass inlet housing. Need stainless steel inlet housing or an insert modification for anyone to overhaul.
* only FPI out of Ohio will overhaul A14s. Demand was too low for other shops to continue so most, if not all, discontinued service. If anyone knows of another shop let me know. Monopoly shops tend to charge more!
* FPI will only service FPI units build in 1990 with part #1550. They will return all other units to you. Liability issues? New A14s from FPI are $1,700.
* for the purpose of this listing, vintage = 1989 and older. I bought a "NS" unit from 1954. Beautiful but only good as a boat anchor.

A MH system will only get you to single Lennie territory (FL250). To get to double and triple Lennie altitudes, up to FL400+, you will need a diluter demand pressure breathing unit like the A14.

Masks, hoses, flow meters, pressure gauges, bailout bottles, and microphone amplifiers, jacks and plugs, to convert from military to civilian impedance radio systems, are also readily available in new condition. Contact me for details on suppliers and part numbers.

Jim
VVII

[Tango Whisky]

At FL300+, you will need a pressure suit.

[[email protected]]

TW,

Not so. FL500 is the generally accepted altitude where pressurized suits are required and by FL620 your blood at body temperature boils.

I think you are mixing up pressurized breathing with pressurized suits which is needed above FL400. I've flown to FL280 with an Alps mask on a MH system and had no difficulties. I know pilots who pushed this limit to FL320 with a MH system and an unpressurized system but this is certainly not recommended. The A14 will allow you to pressure breath at FL400 and above and apparently even a short duration trip to FL500 is possible. I personally would not go above FL450.

If you recall the recent passing of Bob Harris you will note that he flew to FL490 with a redundant A14 system. Probably the best lesson learned from his flight was the importance of having a well secured mask. Apparently he had to limit his climb because he couldn't keep his mask on as the pressure increased! He did not have a pressure suit.

Jim
VVII

[Duster[_2_]]

The A-14 system, so I thought, is not a true pressure-demand type required at greater altitudes, but is a diluter-demand pressure regulated system with manual pressure valving available(?) Not to be confused with "pulse-demand" EDS. If needed I have a diluter-demand mask with microphone that can be loaned to Keith for his adventure.

While a cup of blood (or water for that matter) will boil at that altitude, circulating blood in a semi-sealed body will likely not (look up "Myth, boiling blood"). Mouth saliva would freeze first. Amazingly, experts say the astronaut in "2001 a Space Odyssey" caught in open space could theoretically have survived his short exposure.

If there's one locally, take a "flight" in an altitude chamber to discover how you function under hypoxic conditions (or you can try breathing a mixture of N2 with air/O2 to get your blood sat to 90% and less).

[Duster[_2_]]

The A-14 system, so I thought, is not a true pressure-demand type required at greater altitudes, but is a diluter-demand pressure regulated system with manual pressure valving available(?) Not to be confused with "pulse-demand" EDS. If needed I have a diluter-demand mask with microphone that can be loaned to Keith for his adventure.

While a cup of blood (or water for that matter) will boil at that altitude, circulating blood in a semi-sealed body will likely not (look up "Myth, boiling blood"). Mouth saliva would freeze first. Amazingly, experts say the astronaut in "2001 a Space Odyssey" caught in open space could theoretically have survived his short exposure.

If there's one locally, take a "flight" in an altitude chamber to discover how you function under hypoxic conditions (or you can try breathing a mixture of N2 with air/O2 to get your blood sat to 90% and less). "drunk" pilot: https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/3mrtdh/pilot_with_hypoxia_attempts_to_declare_emergency/

[[email protected]]

The diluter-demand function of the A14, from what I have read, occurs below a certain altitude, 30,000' if I recall correctly. In this mode the mixing chamber mixes cabin air with O2 and the amount of O2 increases with altitude. Above this altitude it supplies 100% O2. The pressure breathing function is a separate function that has different dial settings for increasing altitudes. Here the pressure of the O2 supplied not the mixture to the mask increases. The markings on the A14 dial suggest 5 different pressures for settings of Safety, 41,000', 43,000', 45,000', & above 45,000'. Not sure why the 1st dial setting is marked Safety but it is the 1st position when the dial is turned off normal.

I've read the same about blood boiling. I think, as you have pointed out, they are referring to an uncontained and uncirculating liquid and meant to make a point about how low the pressure is. Articles I've read also use statements like "seems to boil" instead of boils. I guess the body can contain the vapor pressure sufficiently so it doesn't reach atmospheric pressure and really boil. Apparently the skin will expand and early experiments with dogs in space or a vacuum chamber discovered this. Saliva boiling on the tongue makes sense.

I do plan to get experience in a hypobaric chamber and am hoping they will let me use my own mask, regulator, and bottle however, I suspect this might be considered a liability for then to allow. I still plan to ask. What better way to test the performance of the system I intend to use at FL350-400!

[[email protected]]

Just updating my initial post with availability and cost of New Surplus (NS) A14 regulators manufactured by FPI in 1990 with part #1550. These are new in the original OEM packaging. Stock is currently 10 units and the cost is $600 per unit. Let me know if anyone needs a unit and I will put you in touch with the shop in CA that is stocking these. Also, if anyone knows of a shop that can overhaul these units besides FPI, and especially someone out west, please advise.

Jim
VVII

[BobW]

On 12/19/2018 8:34 AM, wrote:
> The diluter-demand function of the A14, from what I have read, occurs below
> a certain altitude, 30,000' if I recall correctly. In this mode the mixing
> chamber mixes cabin air with O2 and the amount of O2 increases with
> altitude. Above this altitude it supplies 100% O2. The pressure breathing
> function is a separate function that has different dial settings for
> increasing altitudes. Here the pressure of the O2 supplied not the mixture
> to the mask increases. The markings on the A14 dial suggest 5 different
> pressures for settings of Safety, 41,000', 43,000', 45,000', & above
> 45,000'. Not sure why the 1st dial setting is marked Safety but it is the
> 1st position when the dial is turned off normal.

FWIW...
Everything I've read (inhaled, unavoidable pun) since the early 1970s -
primary source: "Soaring" mags" (multiple/excellent "near-first-hand"
articles/columns throughout '70s/'80s) - said the same thing(s). Nothing on
RAS to which I lend credibility (i.e. "hearsay" seriously discounted) has
contradicted any of the above, since my RAS-introduction/continuing-exposure
ca. '96.

>
> I've read the same about blood boiling. I think, as you have pointed out,
> they are referring to an uncontained and uncirculating liquid and meant to
> make a point about how low the pressure is. Articles I've read also use
> statements like "seems to boil" instead of boils. I guess the body can
> contain the vapor pressure sufficiently so it doesn't reach atmospheric
> pressure and really boil. Apparently the skin will expand and early
> experiments with dogs in space or a vacuum chamber discovered this. Saliva
> boiling on the tongue makes sense.
>
> I do plan to get experience in a hypobaric chamber and am hoping they will
> let me use my own mask, regulator, and bottle however, I suspect this might
> be considered a liability for them to allow. I still plan to ask. What
> better way to test the performance of the system I intend to use at
> FL350-400!

That's "exactly" what the late Bill Ivans (ca. '92) told me he did in the
years after WW-II before setting the world-altitude soaring-record (42,100',
as I seem to recall; '52?) that Paul Bikle broke (1961); memory sez both were
set in Schweizer 1-23s. Excerpts of my tape-recorded interview with Ivans
about those years of his soaring can be found in the book "Exploring the Monster".

Kinda-sorta related, I also interviewed (several times) Dr. J. Kuettner
(credited with the "scientific discovery" of standing lee waves, & Lead
Investigator of the subsequent Sierra Wave Projects), about: wave; his
experiences in same; his involvement(s) in illuminating waves' atmospheric
physics; his perception of "existing knowledge" of high-altitude physiology in
the timeframe ~'35-'55; etc.

My takeaways from my brain-picking - and a "chamber ride" ca. early-'80s) -
were/remain several...

- humans are physiologically complex critters, and one size definitely does
NOT fit all; almost certainly YMWV
- any "cast in concrete" safety claims regarding "high-altitude (say >35k'),
unpressurized-cockpit, supplementally-O2-assisted" flight beyond "It's
definitely life-threateningly risky," are likely misleading/inaccurate. "Back
then," high-altitude human physiology was FAR from being "pigeon-holed by
science" in "absolute safety" terms, and in a related vein,
"personally-derived high-altitude limits" seemed to be the accepted norm, at
least among the Sierra Wave Project participants. (Anecdotes below...)

Bill Ivans couldn't remember exactly how high he'd been taken in his chamber
ride, but "definitely" above 40k' (possibly 46k'). Without digging into
ancient notes, I can't remember how-high he set his personal limits prior to
his record-setting altitude flight, but I DO remember him chuckling that the
flight completely satisfied his "altitude curiosity!" I took that to mean he
felt he'd no continuing need to soar "near the physiological edge" going
forward. His job prevented him from piloting during the Sierra Wave Projects,
and I don't know if he was sounded out about doing so or not, but had he been
able, my long-after-the-fact guess was he might've declined.

The long-standing 2-seater world-soaring-altitude/gain flight of ~42k' set in
a Pratt-Read by Larry Edgar and Hal Klieforth (broken by Einar Enevoldsen and
the late Steve Fossett, I believe), had been intended to go no higher than
40k', the nominal limit the Sierra Wave Project soaring participants
pre-selected as their safety-limit for physiological reasons. The extra height
was due solely to the search time required to find descending air, once the
crew had decided "enough for today."

None of the Sierra Wave Project pilots could remember, or admitted to, any
"serious physiologic issues" on/after any of their high-altitude forays
(intestinal gas and cold temperatures notwithstanding). They all practiced
"best practices" before/during each flight, e.g. dietary choices, sleep
practices (not always hewed to, per Dr. K., commonly becuzza the need to
change-out batteries post-flight during a spell of more-or-less-daily standing
waves good for research), pre-breathing 100% O2, etc.

My sense is much of the "high-altitude-physiological-related" institutional
knowledge within the general sport-soaring world (U.S. anyway) has been
gradually lessened/lost due to the passage of time/aging/decreasing
availability of high-altitude chamber access for civilians/etc., to be
"commonly replaced" by a generation of pilots having distinctly different
norms for acceptable risk than the WW-II and immediately-following generations.

Insofar as deciding to take up a voluntary sporting activity (soaring, in this
case), some level of general ignorance is normally the beginning state.
Sometimes (often?) this natural ignorance is expressed in
needlessly/misguidingly stated maxims that quite simply are incorrect. This -
IMHO - is fairly common regarding high-altitude soaring flight...which is
definitely increasingly-seriously risky with increasing altitude, but those
risks are "adequately comprehensible and systematically-addressable," as
(thinks I) the history of post-WW-II high altitude soaring in the U.S. well
documents.

Personally, have at it and may good fortune accompany your preparations!

Bob W.

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Wow, thats quite some history Bob! I need to read up on wave history a lot more! Did you ever track any of the flights from up in Cowley, Alberta at the so called Diamond Mine? I had my 1st wave flight there about 9 years ago and I was hooked! I also learned a few new acronyms from you-FWIW and YMWV I could decipher but RAS? Silent Leader? Appreciate all your comments and I do look forward to a chamber ride before committing to anything above FL300! This is purely a recreational pursuit and one of several gliding challenges for me but it's definitely not to be taken lightly as my two favorite aviation sayings remind me......1) takeoffs are optional but landings are mandatory &...... 2) I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air than (very high) in air wishing I was on the ground!

Jim
VVII

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

FWIW.....for what it's worth
YMMV.....your mileage (situation) may vary
RAS......recreational aviation....Soaring...(this forum where you're posting...)

[[email protected]]

Got the 1st two. RAS, of course-too obvious!

Jim
VVII

[BobW]

On 12/19/2018 3:05 PM, wrote:
> Wow, that's quite some history Bob! I need to read up on wave history a lot
> more! Did you ever track any of the flights from up in Cowley, Alberta at
> the so called Diamond Mine? I had my 1st wave flight there about 9 years
> ago and I was hooked! <Snip...>

The only "tracking" of which I'm aware related to Cowley wave soaring is the
book "Stalking the Mountain Wave" by Ursula Weise. My (autographed!) 2nd
edition copy has a 1997 copyright. I've never been to Cowley. In fact, the
only time I've been to Canada (with a friend to purchase an L13 some years ago
for a 3rd party), U.S. Customs didn't want to readmit us...so I've been
reluctant to leave the country ever since, eh? (True tale!)

Bob W.

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Yes, I met Ursula. She's married to Tony Burton an active CuNim pilot. I have the book as well but mine is not autographed! Cowley is THE wave destination in Canada.

Wonder if that L-13 you picked up was from CuNim? They sold one to Lee Cook I think flying out of Crystal. ISK if I'm not mistaken. I trained in that ship and I heard it got written off not long after it arrived in CA. Most of the L13s were grounded soon after that. Great 2-place workhorse.

Jim
VVII

[BobW]

On 12/19/2018 5:58 PM, wrote:
> Yes, I met Ursula. She's married to Tony Burton an active CuNim pilot. I
> have the book as well but mine is not autographed! Cowley is THE wave
> destination in Canada.
>
> Wonder if that L-13 you picked up was from CuNim? They sold one to Lee
> Cook I think flying out of Crystal. ISK if I'm not mistaken. I trained in
> that ship and I heard it got written off not long after it arrived in CA.
> Most of the L13s were grounded soon after that. Great 2-place workhorse.
>
> Jim VVII

Fuzzy memory says the pickup was in BC (Hope?), ultimately destined for
Oklahoma...

Bob W.

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> Fuzzy memory says the pickup was in BC (Hope?), ultimately destined for
> Oklahoma...
>
> Bob W.
>
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Your fuzzy memory is correct about Hope. You picked up the Vancouver Soaring Associations L-13 C-GZEU. Dearly loved and much missed by me - and many others in the club. It was the first glider I ever flew in, I did my first solo and also made my first flight as a licensed pilot in that ship too. She was essentially timed out though as Transport Canada enforced the factory life limits and getting an extension of 250 hours would have been financially prohibitive. I remember coming out to the airport so you could pick her up. Sorry to hear about the re-entry difficulty and I certainly wish the wing AD hadn't grounded the L-13 a few years later.

I also remember being surprised that the guy who wrote a series of books that I had read multiple times was one of the guys who came to collect the glider!

[[email protected]]

> Fuzzy memory says the pickup was in BC (Hope?), ultimately destined for
> Oklahoma...
>
> Bob W.
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> https://www.avg.com

Your fuzzy memory is correct about Hope. You picked up the Vancouver Soaring Associations L-13 C-GZEU. Dearly loved and much missed by me - and many others in the club. It was the first glider I ever flew in, I did my first solo and also made my first flight as a licensed pilot in that ship too. She was essentially timed out though as Transport Canada enforced the factory life limits and getting an extension of 250 hours would have been financially prohibitive. I remember coming out to the airport so you could pick her up. Sorry to hear about the re-entry difficulty and I certainly wish the wing AD hadn't grounded the L-13 a few years later.

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, October 30, 2018 at 3:32:17 PM UTC-6, Keith Schwab wrote:
> Hi Everyone!
> I'm looking for an A-14 regulator, or something similar, to prepare for higher altitude wave flights in the Sierra. Curious if anyone has an one laying around they might be willing to part with or lend for a season.
> Thanks!
> Keith
>
>

My club's (Soaring Society of Boulder) 1-34 got totaled last summer, and it has an old and lately unused A14 regulator in it. Contact the ship's manager, Phil, at .

[[email protected]]

I would like to correct a couple of statements made here with respect Bob Harris’s altitude record flight. My apologies for being slow to respond.
1) Bob Harris did not limit his climb “because he couldn't keep his mask on�. He terminated the climb because he believed one of his two oxygen systems had malfunctioned.
2) However, the statement that he was “forced down when his oxygen system started to fail� is also incorrect. His subsequent investigation showed that both oxygen systems were operating within specification. The problem was they were not operating identically. As Bob pointed out in his presentation to the World Gliding Championship at Benalla, Australia the following year, differences in the regulators’ pressure settings, stiction between the components, the lack of vibration in the sailplane to address that stiction and the fact that the regulators were at or near their operating limit, resulted in a substantial difference in the pressure he felt in his mask when he switched between the two systems. He interpreted this difference as an indication that one of the two had failed, but later determined it had not.
3) He did not suffer from any medical condition as a result of his record flight.
Mike Koerner

[[email protected]]

Thx for the clarification. Proof that second hand information often gets corrupted in the re-telling! Guilty of passing on the "mask coming off scenario" that was not verified. Is there a written account somewhere of this flight? Also curious with how he dealt with his exhalation moisture. Heard he vented his mask to the outside of the AC. Maintaining visibility can be a lot of work at these fridgid temperatures.

Jim
VVII

[[email protected]]

Bob Harris’s altitude record flight is described in an article by Pat Valdata in the October '88 issue of Soaring Magazine. The article is available to SSA members in the on-line magazine archive. However, that article does not go into detail about the oxygen system issue.
I don’t know what else is available on-line, but I have a pdf of his Benalla presentation which includes both a discussion of the flight and his oxygen regulators’ performance. I would be happy to forward it to anyone who wants it. Email me (first initial last name at cox.net).
Mike Koerner

[[email protected]]

Did anyone flew with the more compact and modern CRU-79 regulator?
Are they available as NS (New Surplus) ?

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, December 26, 2018 at 9:21:34 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> Did anyone flew with the more compact and modern CRU-79 regulator?
> Are they available as NS (New Surplus) ?

This unit is used by parachutists for high altitude jumps but I haven't heard of any glider pilots using it. Good to 50k' and very compact so I don't know why not. I spoke to someone who knew about the skydiving application and he said they used an A14 in the jump plane to pre-breath on their way up and then used the more compact CRU-79 when they jumped. No idea what they cost. I decided to stick to what has been used in gliding but as a backup system this might be very attractive.

Jim
VVII

[Duster[_2_]]

Prior RAS Discussion RE post high-altitude flight medical issues:

"Harris seriously challenged the limits of the A14-A oxygen system
during his flight, which he terminated after the first of two parallel
A14-A installations failed. He alluded to some memory loss after the
flight during an interview with a television news crew. Harris was
subsequently disinclined to talk much about the flight in
consideration of an FAA certificate action and the threat of civil
penalties.

Sabrina Jackintell (the feminine single-place absolute altitude
holder)experienced failure of her A14-A oxygen system at altitude,
lost consciousness and many thousands of feet before recovering at a
lower altitude. She told me that she'd "lost a lot of brain cells"
during the record flight, had experienced memory loss and periods of
disorientation, and that she was never "quite as sharp" as before the
flight.

James Munn (now deceased, but still the holder of the Colorado State
absolute altitude record) and Hod Taylor, contemporaries of Syb at
Black Forest Gliderport, agreed with her assessment. Jim and Hod both
exceeded 40,000 feet on A14-A oxygen systems that worked perfectly,
and both were of the opinion, too, that their health and mental
function had been diminished by the experience.

None of this is meant to condemn the A14-A system. It was the best
thing available at the time, but it just wasn't meant for those
altitudes. I've been to 36,000 feet on an A14-A system myself. I'm
not as sharp as I used to be, either, but I expect that has more to do
with age and Stolichnaya vodka than any amount of high altitude
flying."

"Sabrina's case is a powerful argument for a Pulse Oximeter. All of these
people had endured pressure chamber rides in the hope that this would
provide a means of recognizing their hypoxia symptoms. I presume that they
did not continue their flights despite recognized hypoxia symptoms. This
calls into question the presumption that hypoxia symptoms can be recognized
in time to avoid trouble.

The A-14's were designed in the piston fighter era when sustained,
unpressurized flights above 35,000 feet were rare. Modern pressure demand
regulators such as the MD-2 are simpler, lighter, more reliable and easier
to install. Some are for 50 - 2000 PSI and others for LOX 50 - 500 PSI
oxygen supplies. They are available on the surplus market and would be a
far more suitable regulator than the A-14 for wave flights."

"I have had both Bob and Sabrina visit us
within the past year. I knew both of them prior to
their respective record flights.
Bob was blessed to have no debilitating long term
effects. Sabrina had much more difficulty following
her flights, but now enjoys normal daily life.

Travels above FL 350 should never been taken lightly.
They should never be taken without chamber training.
They should never be taken without dual systems, and
backup emergency options.
They would be the first to say the same things.... Given that we train in wave checkouts to
include emergency descents (full spoilers and just under
maneuvering speeds) and benign spirals.... such an
expedited descent from FL 250 in the AS-K puts you
below 13,000 msl in about 3 minutes."

RE Bickle: "But because [Paul Bikle] loosened the oxygen mask earlier in anticipation of landing while descending to 2,500 feet altitude, Bikle soon found during the sudden and non-stop ascent that he had to hold the oxygen mask to his face with his left hand while steering the sailplane with his right. Before long, the moisture produced by his body and exhaled air caused the inside of the aircraft's canopy to ice over completely, and Bikle had absolutely no outside vision. He could fly only on his instruments and rely on his extraordinary fount of experience to keep him in the ascending wave of air."

[Bob Kuykendall]

On Wednesday, December 26, 2018 at 9:21:34 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> Did anyone flew with the more compact and modern CRU-79 regulator?
> Are they available as NS (New Surplus) ?

I've been looking for one of these for a while now, but they do not seem to be widely available outside the military supply chain. I now have a nice MD2 that will hold me for a while.

--Bob K.

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

Anyone know the type of O2 mask/regulator combo used by Eric Moser in the "Running on Empty" video?

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, December 23, 2018 at 9:59:15 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> I would like to correct a couple of statements made here with respect Bob Harris’s altitude record flight. My apologies for being slow to respond.
> 1) Bob Harris did not limit his climb “because he couldn't keep his mask on�. He terminated the climb because he believed one of his two oxygen systems had malfunctioned.
> 2) However, the statement that he was “forced down when his oxygen system started to fail� is also incorrect. His subsequent investigation showed that both oxygen systems were operating within specification. The problem was they were not operating identically. As Bob pointed out in his presentation to the World Gliding Championship at Benalla, Australia the following year, differences in the regulators’ pressure settings, stiction between the components, the lack of vibration in the sailplane to address that stiction and the fact that the regulators were at or near their operating limit, resulted in a substantial difference in the pressure he felt in his mask when he switched between the two systems. He interpreted this difference as an indication that one of the two had failed, but later determined it had not.
> 3) He did not suffer from any medical condition as a result of his record flight.
> Mike Koerner

Thanks Mike. After reviewing Bob Harris's article I have a few observations:
1) the regulators he used we MD-2s not A-14s. These were manufactured by Cobham Life Support.
MD-2 regulators are obsolete; they were the 2894 series and they got replaced by 29255 series regulators. Very similar units. No idea how these compare to A-14s except they were both rated to ~50k'.

2) the account I heard, but did not verify, was that Bob terminated his flight because he couldn't keep his mask on (due to high pressure on the mask).. You note, and the article confirms, that he reported what he thought was a failed regulator (delivering higher pressure than expected). Is it possible that these reports are related i.e. the regulator he thought had failed was delivering higher pressure than the other one - and so it as forcing his mask off? Maybe a minor point but maybe not. At some point, if the mask is not tight enough it may be forced off and this is something to be prepared for. I added an extra strap on my mask as a backup to the 8 snap connections on my A-11 helmet for this reason.

3) I had heard, but did not confirm, that he vented his mask to the outside but in his article he clearly states he frosted up above 32,000' and was flying on instruments by 39,000' has he had zero visibility! I also experienced significant canopy icing on both my flights to 25k' and 28k'. I was able to "scrape and wipe" to maintain visibility but I expect this could be an overwhelming task at 30k' and above. I am looking at ways to apply film "windows" on both sides of my canopy and also vent my exhaled air to the outside. This is another significant issue to address.

Appreciate your feedback. It's obvious that lot's can go wrong attempting these high flights and the more accurate info we can learn from the better prepared we can be.

I also fly with an oximeter and have found the readings to be very informative for evaluating cannula versus mask performance. However, it would appear that even these can be misleading, if I recall the recent SSA article correctly, so again, good to know and more work to be done.

Jim
VVII

[Bruce Friesen]

Growing up in Winnipeg, it was normal each fall to fit 'frost shields' to the car. "Frost shields' were a sheet of stiff plastic with a perimeter band of rubber, with an adhesive to stick to the car's glass windows, and sufficient additional rubber buttons to maintain an air gap everywhere. Canadian Tire stocked them in a variety of shapes and sizes. When visiting friends down south, we told them it was bullet proof glass.

It was standard practice to fit frost shields to gliders used to fly high in the southern Alberta wave at Cowley at least up to my first experiences there, and my diamond climbs, in the early 1980s. Then, Canadian Tire stopped stocking them. But, they did work.

[BobW]

>
> Growing up in Winnipeg, it was normal each fall to fit 'frost shields' to
> the car. "Frost shields' were a sheet of stiff plastic with a perimeter
> band of rubber, with an adhesive to stick to the car's glass windows, and
> sufficient additional rubber buttons to maintain an air gap everywhere.
> Canadian Tire stocked them in a variety of shapes and sizes. When visiting
> friends down south, we told them it was bullet proof glass.
>
> It was standard practice to fit frost shields to gliders used to fly high
> in the southern Alberta wave at Cowley at least up to my first experiences
> there, and my diamond climbs, in the early 1980s. Then, Canadian Tire
> stopped stocking them. But, they did work.

Indeed. There might BE a reason the frosty bits of North America have mostly
moved on from single-pane house windows. :)

In the soaring world, the participants with whom I spoke from the Sierra Wave
Projects could no longer (if ever) identify a
single-source/individual/"inventor" of "double-paned" canopies...but all
agreed they worked superbly for them. Triple panes were experimented with, but
their conclusion(s) were the additional benefit wasn't worth the
effort/nuisance, and, double-paning was good enough. They spent a LOT of time
above (say) 30k', often hours per flight...

The 'art' of double-paning glider canopies seems to be sufficiently arcane
that each (prolly statistically tiny) group of 'wave junkies' every generation
has to re-learn both: a) of the theoretical benefits, and b) how to
double-pane. Current SSA members can find several "How To" articles in back
issues of soaring post-1972 (and earlier?).

Somewhat-bendy plastic (e.g. lexan, these days), suitable cutting technology
(eg. box cutter, diamond scribe) and viscous/lowish-sticky goop are your
friends...

Bob W.

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Do you have any resources for the CRU-79 where I can buy them, I have problems to install the A 14 or CRU-72/ MD-2 regulator in my cockpit due to limited space

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, December 27, 2018 at 11:28:43 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> Do you have any resources for the CRU-79 where I can buy them, I have problems to install the A 14 or CRU-72/ MD-2 regulator in my cockpit due to limited space

Try:
Cobham Life Support
2734 Hickory Grove Road Davenport, IA 52804 USA
Tel: Fax:
+1 (563) 383 6000 +1 (563) 383 6323

https://www.cobham.com/mission-systems/oxygen-systems/military-aerospace-oxygen-systems/regulators/cru-79p-oxygen-regulator/docview/

Jim
VVII

[Frank Whiteley]

On Wednesday, December 26, 2018 at 5:47:38 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Sunday, December 23, 2018 at 9:59:15 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> > I would like to correct a couple of statements made here with respect Bob Harris’s altitude record flight. My apologies for being slow to respond.
> > 1) Bob Harris did not limit his climb “because he couldn't keep his mask on�. He terminated the climb because he believed one of his two oxygen systems had malfunctioned.
> > 2) However, the statement that he was “forced down when his oxygen system started to fail� is also incorrect. His subsequent investigation showed that both oxygen systems were operating within specification. The problem was they were not operating identically. As Bob pointed out in his presentation to the World Gliding Championship at Benalla, Australia the following year, differences in the regulators’ pressure settings, stiction between the components, the lack of vibration in the sailplane to address that stiction and the fact that the regulators were at or near their operating limit, resulted in a substantial difference in the pressure he felt in his mask when he switched between the two systems. He interpreted this difference as an indication that one of the two had failed, but later determined it had not.
> > 3) He did not suffer from any medical condition as a result of his record flight.
> > Mike Koerner
>
> Thanks Mike. After reviewing Bob Harris's article I have a few observations:
> 1) the regulators he used we MD-2s not A-14s. These were manufactured by Cobham Life Support.
> MD-2 regulators are obsolete; they were the 2894 series and they got replaced by 29255 series regulators. Very similar units. No idea how these compare to A-14s except they were both rated to ~50k'.
>
> 2) the account I heard, but did not verify, was that Bob terminated his flight because he couldn't keep his mask on (due to high pressure on the mask). You note, and the article confirms, that he reported what he thought was a failed regulator (delivering higher pressure than expected). Is it possible that these reports are related i.e. the regulator he thought had failed was delivering higher pressure than the other one - and so it as forcing his mask off? Maybe a minor point but maybe not. At some point, if the mask is not tight enough it may be forced off and this is something to be prepared for. I added an extra strap on my mask as a backup to the 8 snap connections on my A-11 helmet for this reason.
>
> 3) I had heard, but did not confirm, that he vented his mask to the outside but in his article he clearly states he frosted up above 32,000' and was flying on instruments by 39,000' has he had zero visibility! I also experienced significant canopy icing on both my flights to 25k' and 28k'. I was able to "scrape and wipe" to maintain visibility but I expect this could be an overwhelming task at 30k' and above. I am looking at ways to apply film "windows" on both sides of my canopy and also vent my exhaled air to the outside. This is another significant issue to address.
>
> Appreciate your feedback. It's obvious that lot's can go wrong attempting these high flights and the more accurate info we can learn from the better prepared we can be.
>
> I also fly with an oximeter and have found the readings to be very informative for evaluating cannula versus mask performance. However, it would appear that even these can be misleading, if I recall the recent SSA article correctly, so again, good to know and more work to be done.
>
> Jim
> VVII

I've used clear acetate (sorry can't recall the thickness, but thick enough to hold shape without wrinkling). I've used both sheets and pieces cut from rolls. I tape them to the interior of the canopy using Scotch Magic Tape (easier to remove or re-position though not clear). The slight air gap seems to be enough to keep frost from forming.

Frank Whiteley

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Wednesday, December 26, 2018 at 12:38:21 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> Bob Harris’s altitude record flight is described in an article by Pat Valdata in the October '88 issue of Soaring Magazine. The article is available to SSA members in the on-line magazine archive. However, that article does not go into detail about the oxygen system issue.
> I don’t know what else is available on-line, but I have a pdf of his Benalla presentation which includes both a discussion of the flight and his oxygen regulators’ performance. I would be happy to forward it to anyone who wants it. Email me (first initial last name at cox.net).
> Mike Koerner

The article referenced is not in the October 88 issue, rather the February 88 issue.

[[email protected]]

Yeah, You're right. Thanks Jonathan.
Sorry folks.
Mike Koerner

[Michael Opitz]

At 21:32 30 October 2018, Keith Schwab wrote:
>Hi Everyone!
>I'm looking for an A-14 regulator, or something similar, to prepare for
>higher altitude wave flights in the Sierra. Curious if anyone has an
one
>laying around they might be willing to part with or lend for a season.
>Thanks!
>Keith
>

>

Check out the German want ads. This showed up today:

https://www.segelflug.de/osclass/index.php?page=item&id=31669

RO