looking for advice on lead n follow flights

[Roy Garden]

I'm an averagely useless XC pilot living in a visitor intensive place and
get asked to do Lead n Follow flights with some regularity.
I've tried, on quite a few occasions and short of herding cats, I can't
think of anything less likely to succeed.

The main issue is, keeping track of where people are and them knowing
where I am.
Flarm is great (no, it's not, it's fekkin useless) and the fallback Spot
the
gliders only works with any regularity up to about 8000' and gets a bit
spotty above that.

I don't want to have the guys right on my tail as I want to go check that
the "Next" bar is actually working before they follow me over. so that
leads to 10 (ish) mile separation frequently.

(The point of "Lead n follow", I think, is that it's a relatively safe, if
slow
way to go exploring.?)
If I say "Follow me chaps!" then head off, I could (and do, with some
regularity) **** it up. Fine when it's just me but the responsibility of
having people who don't quite "get" how nasty it can be, following me
stymies the whole thing.

Is there a way, to keep 10-15km separation and have people be able to
find me when I know it's good?
That we can do with kit that is "out there" ? (almost everyone has an
Oudie / flarm / phone with them)

I know this is urasB, but frankly, I could do without "Nigel" in his best
Essex Nasal, quoting that I should call out grid references from my map
.. . (Which I use frequently, to block the sun, from the primary nav
display)

Ideas chap (s/eses)?

I'm kind of at the stage where I really really don't want to as it's
always

a cluster through loosing people now, but I do have the time and
inclination, if there was some kind of semi reliable way to track / be
tracked.

[JS[_5_]]

On Wednesday, October 31, 2018 at 6:15:04 PM UTC-7, Roy Garden wrote:
> I'm an averagely useless XC pilot living in a visitor intensive place and
> get asked to do Lead n Follow flights with some regularity.
> I've tried, on quite a few occasions and short of herding cats, I can't
> think of anything less likely to succeed.
>
> The main issue is, keeping track of where people are and them knowing
> where I am.
> Flarm is great (no, it's not, it's fekkin useless) and the fallback Spot
> the
> gliders only works with any regularity up to about 8000' and gets a bit
> spotty above that.
>
> I don't want to have the guys right on my tail as I want to go check that
> the "Next" bar is actually working before they follow me over. so that
> leads to 10 (ish) mile separation frequently.
>
> (The point of "Lead n follow", I think, is that it's a relatively safe, if
> slow
> way to go exploring.?)
> If I say "Follow me chaps!" then head off, I could (and do, with some
> regularity) **** it up. Fine when it's just me but the responsibility of
> having people who don't quite "get" how nasty it can be, following me
> stymies the whole thing.
>
> Is there a way, to keep 10-15km separation and have people be able to
> find me when I know it's good?
> That we can do with kit that is "out there" ? (almost everyone has an
> Oudie / flarm / phone with them)
>
> I know this is urasB, but frankly, I could do without "Nigel" in his best
> Essex Nasal, quoting that I should call out grid references from my map
> . . (Which I use frequently, to block the sun, from the primary nav
> display)
>
> Ideas chap (s/eses)?
>
> I'm kind of at the stage where I really really don't want to as it's
> always
>
> a cluster through loosing people now, but I do have the time and
> inclination, if there was some kind of semi reliable way to track / be
> tracked.

Ben Hirashima has developed an app to work with GoTenna Mesh. This would be excellent in keeping track of each other.
https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!topic/rec.aviation.soaring/BbzC-7kp3CM

One technique I've seen used in lead and follow is:
Leader keeps the landing gear down for the whole flight.

Perhaps talk to G. Dale for further advice?
Jim

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, October 31, 2018 at 10:09:47 PM UTC-4, JS wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 31, 2018 at 6:15:04 PM UTC-7, Roy Garden wrote:
> > I'm an averagely useless XC pilot living in a visitor intensive place and
> > get asked to do Lead n Follow flights with some regularity.
> > I've tried, on quite a few occasions and short of herding cats, I can't
> > think of anything less likely to succeed.
> >
> > The main issue is, keeping track of where people are and them knowing
> > where I am.
> > Flarm is great (no, it's not, it's fekkin useless) and the fallback Spot
> > the
> > gliders only works with any regularity up to about 8000' and gets a bit
> > spotty above that.
> >
> > I don't want to have the guys right on my tail as I want to go check that
> > the "Next" bar is actually working before they follow me over. so that
> > leads to 10 (ish) mile separation frequently.
> >
> > (The point of "Lead n follow", I think, is that it's a relatively safe, if
> > slow
> > way to go exploring.?)
> > If I say "Follow me chaps!" then head off, I could (and do, with some
> > regularity) **** it up. Fine when it's just me but the responsibility of
> > having people who don't quite "get" how nasty it can be, following me
> > stymies the whole thing.
> >
> > Is there a way, to keep 10-15km separation and have people be able to
> > find me when I know it's good?
> > That we can do with kit that is "out there" ? (almost everyone has an
> > Oudie / flarm / phone with them)
> >
> > I know this is urasB, but frankly, I could do without "Nigel" in his best
> > Essex Nasal, quoting that I should call out grid references from my map
> > . . (Which I use frequently, to block the sun, from the primary nav
> > display)
> >
> > Ideas chap (s/eses)?
> >
> > I'm kind of at the stage where I really really don't want to as it's
> > always
> >
> > a cluster through loosing people now, but I do have the time and
> > inclination, if there was some kind of semi reliable way to track / be
> > tracked.
>
> Ben Hirashima has developed an app to work with GoTenna Mesh. This would be excellent in keeping track of each other.
> https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!topic/rec.aviation.soaring/BbzC-7kp3CM
>
> One technique I've seen used in lead and follow is:
> Leader keeps the landing gear down for the whole flight.
>
> Perhaps talk to G. Dale for further advice?
> Jim

Roy didn't say which country he's in, although a few bits in his posting hint that it's probably not the USA. Gliderlink (at least the map part) only works in the USA at the moment AFAIK, although Ben says that'll be fixed. In Europe the hardware and software developed by Linar may be useful for this, see the thread about "do it yourself collision avoidance".

I hope to use Gliderlink for "lead and follow", so if anybody has tried that I'd love to hear how it went. Around here there are enough ground features to specify where one is fairly well, but despite that it's proven difficult to rendezvous after getting out of sight of each other. As for the leaving the gear down, mine is down-and-epoxied, so I am hoping that anybody who follows me in a higher performance glider is reasonably safe.

[Mike the Strike]

We call it “drag and drop� - experienced pilots lead a newbie on a modest cross-country flight with lots of landing options and drop the hapless pilot at some remote airstrip! Indeed, it was part of my initiation into cross-country soaring in Arizona.

To work, it’s best done with some experienced guys who don’t mind sticking with the newbie. I was led off on a number of flights with one or more such pilots, who would often spoiler down from the top of a thermal to rescue me. You have to stay close. My “drops� involved my landing when I got lower than I was comfortable with - I initially set myself some quite conservative margins.

I got much better with the combination of assistance from fellow pilots and solo practice. Although I never became a great racing pilot, I have managed to log quite a few cross-country miles thanks to some early mentoring and strongly support the use of on-course mentoring.

Mike

[Tim Taylor]

I have done a lot of lead-follow training over the years. Very good Power Flarm helps with the correct hardware. You need a good PF core with solid antennas and hardware such as a Oudie or LX9000 display.

Using Team Codes can be very useful. Establish the reference point between the pilots before flight. Very simple after that to give or receive exact locations between pilots. You can use a goto the other pilot and they can fly directly to your location.

As Mike said, the lead pilot has to be ready to pull the boards and join the following pilot at their altitude.

[Per Carlin]

I would say that Lead & Follow has to be performed as close as possible between the leader and the followers. Absolutely not more than within eyesight and therefore is there no need of any technical devices more than a radio. In worst case is a GPS with some fixed turning points enough to communicate distance and bearing to close the separation.

What happens if the distance becomes to big (<10-15km) and I as leader finds out a good climb? I will take it and most likely leave it until the followers are there, they will only get the information of where it was as good climb, not if it still there and how to center it. They will stay for a while and struggle, perhaps find it a go to could base and in worst case abandon it and follow me on the lows. At the next thermal I find will the separation be even bigger and the follow & lead will fail unless I pull the brake and take away 500m+ in height.

Lead & follow has to be performed in a closer configuration, max 2-3km in distance and ~100m in height. If the separation becomes bigger do the leader have a few options:
- To try a weak thermal which I might not have taken when alone, to give the followers the time to catch up
- Stay at could base to wait until the followers has the same height until leaving
- Pull the brake to get to the same height and together make a save from the lows
- The follow have to follow all the time. Any kind of sidetrack will make the sepperation bigger.

To a surprise for many can this be performed with quite big differences in glider performance as long as the wing load are in the same range.

This art of soaring is not easy, it has to be performed with discipline and with respect to all in the team. The leader has the respect that the followers are not equally skilled in finding and centering thermals and the followers has to dare to follow the leader into unknow areas (without compromising the safety). It is also essential to prior the flight agree on how to communicate on the radio, misunderstandings are not helping when the situation becomes stressed.

[Jim White[_3_]]

Dave Watt helped me a great deal when I was learning down here in thermal
land. The take away lesson for lead and follow is simple: Follow means
follow. As soon as the follower does his / her own thing it goes to worms.

Agree to stay close, play safe, do not stretch the follower out, don't get
separated in height more than a couple of hundred feet, and be prepared to
wait around.

I am very grateful to Watty that he was prepared to help me in this way
back then (not sure he will anymore though!)

Jim

[Roy Garden]

At 10:49 01 November 2018, Per Carlin wrote:
>I would say that Lead & Follow has to be performed as close as possible
>bet=
>ween the leader and the followers. Absolutely not more than within
>eyesight=
> and therefore is there no need of any technical devices more than a
>radio.=

Thanks Per,
The issue I have is that I'm doing this in wave not thermal.
I want to leave the guys in lift and go off to check the next bit that
looks
good, actually is, before I call the guys to jump into it.

On recent flights around here (Scotland) I've come back to the same place
4 hours later and the wave is still running. So there are less issues with
lift
changing between me marking it and the guys using it. (not zero, but less)

The issue here is that the terrain is generally unlandable.
The Sink can be horrific.
And we are usually operating in winds stronger than 50kts at cruising alt.
None of these things are familiar to the guys asking for the lead n
follow.

So I want to be able to leave the guys in lift and get 10-15k away from
them to check the next bit.

[Tango Eight]

On Wednesday, October 31, 2018 at 9:15:04 PM UTC-4, Roy Garden wrote:
> I'm an averagely useless XC pilot living in a visitor intensive place and
> get asked to do Lead n Follow flights with some regularity.

Turn it around and see if it works better.

"Student" leads and the "instructor" trails closely, or flies line abreast, never allows himself to get more than about 2-300' higher, guides actions when needed via radio. The whole point is to develop confidence and decision making ability.

Essential prerequisites are ability to center and climb efficiently, ability to execute a safe landing in whatever sort of landing options are available on your route. The route must be selected with the student's current level of experience and skill in mind.

Instructor should remain within visual contact. Typically 1/4 - 1 mile. Fancy electronics not required. Staying together is the instructors job, completely unloading the student in this respect. Asking a XC newbie to track someone else on a fish finder is a recipe for problems...

best,
Evan Ludeman / T8

[Tango Eight]

On Thursday, November 1, 2018 at 8:15:05 AM UTC-4, Roy Garden wrote:
> At 10:49 01 November 2018, Per Carlin wrote:
> >I would say that Lead & Follow has to be performed as close as possible
> >bet=
> >ween the leader and the followers. Absolutely not more than within
> >eyesight=
> > and therefore is there no need of any technical devices more than a
> >radio.=
>
> Thanks Per,
> The issue I have is that I'm doing this in wave not thermal.
> I want to leave the guys in lift and go off to check the next bit that
> looks
> good, actually is, before I call the guys to jump into it.
>
> On recent flights around here (Scotland) I've come back to the same place
> 4 hours later and the wave is still running. So there are less issues with
> lift
> changing between me marking it and the guys using it. (not zero, but less)
>
> The issue here is that the terrain is generally unlandable.
> The Sink can be horrific.
> And we are usually operating in winds stronger than 50kts at cruising alt..
> None of these things are familiar to the guys asking for the lead n
> follow.
>
> So I want to be able to leave the guys in lift and get 10-15k away from
> them to check the next bit.

We fly in conditions such as you describe in Northern NH & Maine US. Everyone is responsible for doing their own homework. Terrain is extremely technical, landables fairly sparse.

Pair / team flying tactics are very useful for figuring out the wave, but even sharp, well experienced pilots get a scare from time to time. A mile of altitude can go away with astonishing speed.

You do not need to be in visual contact to pass useful information to each other.

Use of any sort of GPS device including tracking is made difficult by high wind and often huge variation between heading and ground track. "North Up" probably a better option. Flarm does (or at least did, I have not flown the most recent releases in the wave) odd things when your ground speed is very low. It may consider you or your flying buddy a non-flying aircraft.

Happy to pair fly in such conditions. The other guy has to be 100% responsible for his own navigation, decision making, eventual landing. Not taking the job of shepherding around an ill prepared newbie.

best,
Evan / T8

[Jonathon May]

At 12:52 01 November 2018, Tango Eight wrote:
>On Thursday, November 1, 2018 at 8:15:05 AM UTC-4, Roy
Garden wrote:
>> At 10:49 01 November 2018, Per Carlin wrote:
>> >I would say that Lead & Follow has to be performed as close
as possible
>> >bet=3D
>> >ween the leader and the followers. Absolutely not more than
within
>> >eyesight=3D
>> > and therefore is there no need of any technical devices more
than a
>> >radio.=3D
>>=20
>> Thanks Per,=20
>> The issue I have is that I'm doing this in wave not thermal.
>> I want to leave the guys in lift and go off to check the next bit
that
>> looks=20
>> good, actually is, before I call the guys to jump into it.
>>=20
>> On recent flights around here (Scotland) I've come back to the
same
>place=
>=20
>> 4 hours later and the wave is still running. So there are less
issues
>wit=
>h
>> lift=20
>> changing between me marking it and the guys using it. (not
zero, but
>less=
>)
>>=20
>> The issue here is that the terrain is generally unlandable.
>> The Sink can be horrific.
>> And we are usually operating in winds stronger than 50kts at
cruising
>alt=
>..
>> None of these things are familiar to the guys asking for the lead
n
>> follow.
>>=20
>> So I want to be able to leave the guys in lift and get 10-15k
away from=
>=20
>> them to check the next bit.
>
>We fly in conditions such as you describe in Northern NH & Maine
US.
>Every=
>one is responsible for doing their own homework. Terrain is
extremely
>tech=
>nical, landables fairly sparse. =20
>
>Pair / team flying tactics are very useful for figuring out the wave,
but
>e=
>ven sharp, well experienced pilots get a scare from time to time.
A mile
>o=
>f altitude can go away with astonishing speed.
>
>You do not need to be in visual contact to pass useful information
to each
>=
>other.=20
>
>Use of any sort of GPS device including tracking is made difficult
by high
>=
>wind and often huge variation between heading and ground track.
"North
>Up"=
> probably a better option. Flarm does (or at least did, I have not
flown
>t=
>he most recent releases in the wave) odd things when your
ground speed is
>v=
>ery low. It may consider you or your flying buddy a non-flying
aircraft.
>
>Happy to pair fly in such conditions. The other guy has to be
100%
>respons=
>ible for his own navigation, decision making, eventual landing.
Not
>taking=
> the job of shepherding around an ill prepared newbie. =20
>
>best,
>Evan / T8
>

I think Roy's newbies are 1000hr pilots looking for a diamond height
As I have been doing the same thing at Denbigh I know how they
feel.
You are 12000ft ,on O2 above 7/8 cloud looking for the next good
lift, the LX is giving all sorts of winds because its not good if you are
not circling, all you can do is keep your eyes on the remaining gap
in the cloud and your moving map.And voices on the radio say
"I've got 6Kn 8K out at 160 degrees from base"
and you think " I am not going there I won't be able to see my hole
in the cloud"
So next time you ask a local like Roy if you can follow, which puts
pressure on him that he doesn't need.
There are some good answers on u.r.a.s.b about flarm team
settings
that I am going to try on my next expedition to the Welsh diamond
mine.

[Duster[_2_]]

Maybe borrow a chapter from tactics on team flying.....

......or heck, just have the leader paint "KAWA" on his/her glider. They'll have no trouble finding it.

[Tango Eight]

On Thursday, November 1, 2018 at 9:45:04 AM UTC-4, Jonathon May wrote:
> At 12:52 01 November 2018, Tango Eight wrote:
> >On Thursday, November 1, 2018 at 8:15:05 AM UTC-4, Roy
> Garden wrote:
> >> At 10:49 01 November 2018, Per Carlin wrote:
> >> >I would say that Lead & Follow has to be performed as close
> as possible
> >> >bet=3D
> >> >ween the leader and the followers. Absolutely not more than
> within
> >> >eyesight=3D
> >> > and therefore is there no need of any technical devices more
> than a
> >> >radio.=3D
> >>=20
> >> Thanks Per,=20
> >> The issue I have is that I'm doing this in wave not thermal.
> >> I want to leave the guys in lift and go off to check the next bit
> that
> >> looks=20
> >> good, actually is, before I call the guys to jump into it.
> >>=20
> >> On recent flights around here (Scotland) I've come back to the
> same
> >place=
> >=20
> >> 4 hours later and the wave is still running. So there are less
> issues
> >wit=
> >h
> >> lift=20
> >> changing between me marking it and the guys using it. (not
> zero, but
> >less=
> >)
> >>=20
> >> The issue here is that the terrain is generally unlandable.
> >> The Sink can be horrific.
> >> And we are usually operating in winds stronger than 50kts at
> cruising
> >alt=
> >..
> >> None of these things are familiar to the guys asking for the lead
> n
> >> follow.
> >>=20
> >> So I want to be able to leave the guys in lift and get 10-15k
> away from=
> >=20
> >> them to check the next bit.
> >
> >We fly in conditions such as you describe in Northern NH & Maine
> US.
> >Every=
> >one is responsible for doing their own homework. Terrain is
> extremely
> >tech=
> >nical, landables fairly sparse. =20
> >
> >Pair / team flying tactics are very useful for figuring out the wave,
> but
> >e=
> >ven sharp, well experienced pilots get a scare from time to time.
> A mile
> >o=
> >f altitude can go away with astonishing speed.
> >
> >You do not need to be in visual contact to pass useful information
> to each
> >=
> >other.=20
> >
> >Use of any sort of GPS device including tracking is made difficult
> by high
> >=
> >wind and often huge variation between heading and ground track.
> "North
> >Up"=
> > probably a better option. Flarm does (or at least did, I have not
> flown
> >t=
> >he most recent releases in the wave) odd things when your
> ground speed is
> >v=
> >ery low. It may consider you or your flying buddy a non-flying
> aircraft.
> >
> >Happy to pair fly in such conditions. The other guy has to be
> 100%
> >respons=
> >ible for his own navigation, decision making, eventual landing.
> Not
> >taking=
> > the job of shepherding around an ill prepared newbie. =20
> >
> >best,
> >Evan / T8
> >
>
> I think Roy's newbies are 1000hr pilots looking for a diamond height
> As I have been doing the same thing at Denbigh I know how they
> feel.
> You are 12000ft ,on O2 above 7/8 cloud looking for the next good
> lift, the LX is giving all sorts of winds because its not good if you are
> not circling, all you can do is keep your eyes on the remaining gap
> in the cloud and your moving map.And voices on the radio say
> "I've got 6Kn 8K out at 160 degrees from base"
> and you think " I am not going there I won't be able to see my hole
> in the cloud"
> So next time you ask a local like Roy if you can follow, which puts
> pressure on him that he doesn't need.
> There are some good answers on u.r.a.s.b about flarm team
> settings
> that I am going to try on my next expedition to the Welsh diamond
> mine.

That's the thing. 1000hrs of XC in thermals isn't all that useful for safety and confidence in the wave. Doubly so for wet wave. Preparation, study, good procedures are essential... and cannot be transmitted via radio.

best,
Evan

T8

[[email protected]]

Although they were in thermal conditions and so not directly comparable to wave, when I was a pupil on lead and follow courses, at different stages in my flying, with 2 top pilots the main aim was that the pupil should experience the same air as the teacher at as close to the same time as possible so that we could understand why the leader responded the way that he did - for better and for worse. To that end we flew in close (really close) line astern formation. In one course we also took turns at leading and justifying our decisions at debriefing. I think it is essential to experience and analyse the consequences of wrong decisions (hopefully a minority) as well as right ones.

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, November 1, 2018 at 3:57:36 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> Although they were in thermal conditions and so not directly comparable to wave, when I was a pupil on lead and follow courses, at different stages in my flying, with 2 top pilots the main aim was that the pupil should experience the same air as the teacher at as close to the same time as possible so that we could understand why the leader responded the way that he did - for better and for worse. To that end we flew in close (really close) line astern formation. In one course we also took turns at leading and justifying our decisions at debriefing. I think it is essential to experience and analyse the consequences of wrong decisions (hopefully a minority) as well as right ones.

- With "really close formation" how did you (1) prevent running into each other and (2) accommodate differences in glider performance? Note that if you slow down to handle (1) you end up higher (2).

[[email protected]]

My "really close" isn't so close that running into each other would be a danger - but as close as we could. If someone dropped lower they would generally catch up in the next climb. If necessary the teacher dropped down to guide them up. The teacher in one case had the lowest performance glider - in the other marginally the highest and used the air brakes to keep down to our level.

[SoaringXCellence]

One of the aspects that has only been briefly discussed:

The follower must follow! If they feel that they need "just a couple more turns" in the thermal and the leader has headed ou, They will be left behind in a hurry.

I have usually asked the "follower" to lead out and then I can trail or move abeam to discuss the next option(s).

I also have a plan discussed with the follower about the general direction of the task legs and what the bail-out procedure is. If the day is long enough you can do a short course and bring them back to the field for them to try is on their own.

MB

[Nick Kennedy[_3_]]

Roy Garden, in his original post says Flarm is useless.

I don't know how his and his friends systems are set up, but mine works GREAT.
I usually get a 7-10+ mile range on mine and that is a long way. Some of my friends are reporting longer ranges with higher performing antenna's

The Lead and follow flight is very difficult to do, as it is so easy to get separated. Then the endless Where are You radio calls start, not much fun.

At the Logan Ut. XC camp back in I think 2016, I hooked up with Tim Taylor; him in his Ventus 2 and me in my LS3a. Tim flies fast and I soon lost sight of him. Through Flarm I was able to "see" him and fly his track and meet up with him at the turn around point up by Alpine Wyoming. he waited for me there and then we ran back home, but once again I lost sight of him but could see him the whole way on the Flarm. That was a great day for me. And I would not have made that flight on that day without Tim in front of me.
These novice level lead and follow flights are tough to do, I think the lead pilot needs to be in a lower performance glider, and the following pilot HAS to stick with the leader, or It quickly falls apart.

[Papa3[_2_]]

Several good posts, but I think Per covers most of them in one. FWIW, I ran a racing camp for a couple of years where we had anywhere from 10-15 pairs trying at the same time. Out of that, maybe 20% of the pairs were able to pull off anything like a successful lead/follow. Out of all the different failure modes, the two biggest ones were:

- Leader saying "I'll head out for that next cloud 7 miles out and let you know". Once you're more than a 1/2 mile apart, you're no longer flying the same flight.

- Followers who refuse to follow. I distinctly remember being at 7,000 feet on a beautiful day 10 miles from the home airport and my follower refused to pass up even a half knot as we went back to take a start. He simply wasn't ready to commit to XC at any level.

I would say that briefing the mission and especially the key parameters (hard deck, maximum separation, leader willing to pull the boards, appetite for landing out) needs to be done on the ground for a solid 20-30 minutes before you start flying.

P3



On Thursday, November 1, 2018 at 6:49:58 AM UTC-4, Per Carlin wrote:
> I would say that Lead & Follow has to be performed as close as possible between the leader and the followers. Absolutely not more than within eyesight and therefore is there no need of any technical devices more than a radio. In worst case is a GPS with some fixed turning points enough to communicate distance and bearing to close the separation.
>
> What happens if the distance becomes to big (<10-15km) and I as leader finds out a good climb? I will take it and most likely leave it until the followers are there, they will only get the information of where it was as good climb, not if it still there and how to center it. They will stay for a while and struggle, perhaps find it a go to could base and in worst case abandon it and follow me on the lows. At the next thermal I find will the separation be even bigger and the follow & lead will fail unless I pull the brake and take away 500m+ in height.
>
> Lead & follow has to be performed in a closer configuration, max 2-3km in distance and ~100m in height. If the separation becomes bigger do the leader have a few options:
> - To try a weak thermal which I might not have taken when alone, to give the followers the time to catch up
> - Stay at could base to wait until the followers has the same height until leaving
> - Pull the brake to get to the same height and together make a save from the lows
> - The follow have to follow all the time. Any kind of sidetrack will make the sepperation bigger.
>
> To a surprise for many can this be performed with quite big differences in glider performance as long as the wing load are in the same range.
>
> This art of soaring is not easy, it has to be performed with discipline and with respect to all in the team. The leader has the respect that the followers are not equally skilled in finding and centering thermals and the followers has to dare to follow the leader into unknow areas (without compromising the safety). It is also essential to prior the flight agree on how to communicate on the radio, misunderstandings are not helping when the situation becomes stressed.

[Nick Kennedy[_3_]]

One more thought on this
If someone wants to learn to fly XC I think a good way is, once they can takeoff, thermal and land safely and use a final glide/ waypoint computer is for them/ encourage them to enter a Regional contest. Lots of chances of flying with others in a somewhat controlled situation. Lots of people to follow. Weather information, Retrieve office, partys and mutipule days of flying XC with a mob is great fun and its easy to get swept up in the momentum of leaving your home airport and heading out and making some decisions. It's easy to keep going when you see a gaggle in front of you climbing. With Flarm being more prevalent, that is a great help too. Those OLC meets Bruno puts on are all of the above, and everyone is required to have Flarm
Having a computer on board which shows all your makeable airports lit up in green is a big help too. Line several up those airports up in a row and its easier to keep going. The new software makes it so easy, just a glance tells you how your doing on landout safety.

[Dan Marotta]

....And at an organized contest there will be a ready retrieve should it
be needed.

On 11/3/2018 10:10 AM, Nick Kennedy wrote:
> One more thought on this
> If someone wants to learn to fly XC I think a good way is, once they can takeoff, thermal and land safely and use a final glide/ waypoint computer is for them/ encourage them to enter a Regional contest. Lots of chances of flying with others in a somewhat controlled situation. Lots of people to follow. Weather information, Retrieve office, partys and mutipule days of flying XC with a mob is great fun and its easy to get swept up in the momentum of leaving your home airport and heading out and making some decisions. It's easy to keep going when you see a gaggle in front of you climbing. With Flarm being more prevalent, that is a great help too. Those OLC meets Bruno puts on are all of the above, and everyone is required to have Flarm
> Having a computer on board which shows all your makeable airports lit up in green is a big help too. Line several up those airports up in a row and its easier to keep going. The new software makes it so easy, just a glance tells you how your doing on landout safety.

--
Dan, 5J

[MNLou]

I partially agree with Nick.

Flying contests is great for IMPROVING your XC skills. I don't think it is a good environment for LEARNING XC skills.

If you get in a contest with challenging conditions or intimidating terrain, I don't thing that is a great environment to take your first significant XC flights. Your first contest is pretty overwhelming anyway. Adding "cutting the apron strings" to that workload might be a step too far.

Lou

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Sat, 03 Nov 2018 08:37:12 -0700, Papa3 wrote:

> Several good posts, but I think Per covers most of them in one. FWIW, I
> ran a racing camp for a couple of years where we had anywhere from 10-15
> pairs trying at the same time. Out of that, maybe 20% of the pairs were
> able to pull off anything like a successful lead/follow. Out of all the
> different failure modes, the two biggest ones were:
>
> - Leader saying "I'll head out for that next cloud 7 miles out and let
> you know". Once you're more than a 1/2 mile apart, you're no longer
> flying the same flight.
>
> - Followers who refuse to follow. I distinctly remember being at 7,000
> feet on a beautiful day 10 miles from the home airport and my follower
> refused to pass up even a half knot as we went back to take a start.
> He simply wasn't ready to commit to XC at any level.
>
> I would say that briefing the mission and especially the key parameters
> (hard deck, maximum separation, leader willing to pull the boards,
> appetite for landing out) needs to be done on the ground for a solid
> 20-30 minutes before you start flying.
>
> P3
>
>
>
> On Thursday, November 1, 2018 at 6:49:58 AM UTC-4, Per Carlin wrote:
>> I would say that Lead & Follow has to be performed as close as possible
>> between the leader and the followers. Absolutely not more than within
>> eyesight and therefore is there no need of any technical devices more
>> than a radio. In worst case is a GPS with some fixed turning points
>> enough to communicate distance and bearing to close the separation.
>>
>> What happens if the distance becomes to big (<10-15km) and I as leader
>> finds out a good climb? I will take it and most likely leave it until
>> the followers are there, they will only get the information of where it
>> was as good climb, not if it still there and how to center it. They
>> will stay for a while and struggle, perhaps find it a go to could base
>> and in worst case abandon it and follow me on the lows. At the next
>> thermal I find will the separation be even bigger and the follow & lead
>> will fail unless I pull the brake and take away 500m+ in height.
>>
>> Lead & follow has to be performed in a closer configuration, max 2-3km
>> in distance and ~100m in height. If the separation becomes bigger do
>> the leader have a few options:
>> - To try a weak thermal which I might not have taken when alone, to
>> give the followers the time to catch up - Stay at could base to wait
>> until the followers has the same height until leaving - Pull the brake
>> to get to the same height and together make a save from the lows - The
>> follow have to follow all the time. Any kind of sidetrack will make the
>> sepperation bigger.
>>
>> To a surprise for many can this be performed with quite big differences
>> in glider performance as long as the wing load are in the same range.
>>
>> This art of soaring is not easy, it has to be performed with discipline
>> and with respect to all in the team. The leader has the respect that
>> the followers are not equally skilled in finding and centering thermals
>> and the followers has to dare to follow the leader into unknow areas
>> (without compromising the safety). It is also essential to prior the
>> flight agree on how to communicate on the radio, misunderstandings are
>> not helping when the situation becomes stressed.

Do you introduce your new pilots to flying mini-triangles when they're
getting ready to go XC?

I found out about mini-triangles by word of mouth when I'd been solo
about 6 months and found that learning to fly them was a great help. As
an example, one I used a lot was a 43km/25mile triangle roughly centred
on our airfield and with its furthest point (one of the turnpoints) 10.5
km/6.5 miles from the field. Thats close enough to home to avoid worrying
a new pilot while just about big enough (longest leg is 16km/10miles) to
introduce them to the joys of flying a task while carrying a logger and,
preferably, a navigation system as well, especially if the turnpoints can
be put into their kit.

And of course you can use smaller triangles or squares if you want to
keep your fledglings within, say, 5 miles of home.


I think a new pilot can learn a lot from flying mini-triangles by
themselves, especially if they keep a record of times/speeds/weather/
flight logs so they can analyse their flights and chart their own
progress. Flying this sort of minitask makes progress toward the bronze
badge and XC endorsement rather more interesting than just noodling
around near the airfield.

FWIW, my club encourages new pilots to work on getting their bronze badge
as soon as they're flying single seaters (bronze requires 50 solo flights
including one and a two hour flights, all flown locally plus a written
quiz and a flying tests at the end of it ) and are reminded that Silver
height gain and duration can be flown as part of the 50 flights. Then, as
soon as a pilot has the Bronze XC add-on (navigation, field picking and
land-out practice, all done in a motor glider) they're readt to go for
silver distance.

IOW, the new pilot can find and use thermals but doesn't yet have the
skills to fly to a turnpoint, let alone to do that at a reasonable speed.
Its also likely that he is not used to carrying a logger or using a map
or GPS system.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, October 31, 2018 at 8:15:04 PM UTC-5, Roy Garden wrote:
> I'm an averagely useless XC pilot living in a visitor intensive place and
> get asked to do Lead n Follow flights with some regularity.
> I've tried, on quite a few occasions and short of herding cats, I can't
> think of anything less likely to succeed.
>
> The main issue is, keeping track of where people are and them knowing
> where I am.
> Flarm is great (no, it's not, it's fekkin useless) and the fallback Spot
> the
> gliders only works with any regularity up to about 8000' and gets a bit
> spotty above that.
>
> I don't want to have the guys right on my tail as I want to go check that
> the "Next" bar is actually working before they follow me over. so that
> leads to 10 (ish) mile separation frequently.
>
> (The point of "Lead n follow", I think, is that it's a relatively safe, if
> slow
> way to go exploring.?)
> If I say "Follow me chaps!" then head off, I could (and do, with some
> regularity) **** it up. Fine when it's just me but the responsibility of
> having people who don't quite "get" how nasty it can be, following me
> stymies the whole thing.
>
> Is there a way, to keep 10-15km separation and have people be able to
> find me when I know it's good?
> That we can do with kit that is "out there" ? (almost everyone has an
> Oudie / flarm / phone with them)
>
> I know this is urasB, but frankly, I could do without "Nigel" in his best
> Essex Nasal, quoting that I should call out grid references from my map
> . . (Which I use frequently, to block the sun, from the primary nav
> display)
>
> Ideas chap (s/eses)?
>
> I'm kind of at the stage where I really really don't want to as it's
> always
>
> a cluster through loosing people now, but I do have the time and
> inclination, if there was some kind of semi reliable way to track / be
> tracked.

After following this thread I'm nonplussed with most of the responses. In my experience, nobody but nobody can be told or shown or coached to fly x-country. Yes, you can pick up advice, you can emulate things you see other pilots do at your field or at contests, you can practice on Condor but that all won't do much good unless you really, really want to learn how to do it and - as importantly - continually strive to improve your performance. I'd like to meet the successful pilot who credits his skills to individual instructors or fellow pilots who "taught" him or her to do it. Unless you go out there and fly, mostly on your own, away from the home field and in challenging conditions, every day there's a chance to make turn points and come back, you will not be a good x-country pilot. With that said, lead and follow is mostly garbage IMHO.
Herb

[2G]

On Saturday, November 3, 2018 at 6:45:48 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 31, 2018 at 8:15:04 PM UTC-5, Roy Garden wrote:
> > I'm an averagely useless XC pilot living in a visitor intensive place and
> > get asked to do Lead n Follow flights with some regularity.
> > I've tried, on quite a few occasions and short of herding cats, I can't
> > think of anything less likely to succeed.
> >
> > The main issue is, keeping track of where people are and them knowing
> > where I am.
> > Flarm is great (no, it's not, it's fekkin useless) and the fallback Spot
> > the
> > gliders only works with any regularity up to about 8000' and gets a bit
> > spotty above that.
> >
> > I don't want to have the guys right on my tail as I want to go check that
> > the "Next" bar is actually working before they follow me over. so that
> > leads to 10 (ish) mile separation frequently.
> >
> > (The point of "Lead n follow", I think, is that it's a relatively safe, if
> > slow
> > way to go exploring.?)
> > If I say "Follow me chaps!" then head off, I could (and do, with some
> > regularity) **** it up. Fine when it's just me but the responsibility of
> > having people who don't quite "get" how nasty it can be, following me
> > stymies the whole thing.
> >
> > Is there a way, to keep 10-15km separation and have people be able to
> > find me when I know it's good?
> > That we can do with kit that is "out there" ? (almost everyone has an
> > Oudie / flarm / phone with them)
> >
> > I know this is urasB, but frankly, I could do without "Nigel" in his best
> > Essex Nasal, quoting that I should call out grid references from my map
> > . . (Which I use frequently, to block the sun, from the primary nav
> > display)
> >
> > Ideas chap (s/eses)?
> >
> > I'm kind of at the stage where I really really don't want to as it's
> > always
> >
> > a cluster through loosing people now, but I do have the time and
> > inclination, if there was some kind of semi reliable way to track / be
> > tracked.
>
> After following this thread I'm nonplussed with most of the responses. In my experience, nobody but nobody can be told or shown or coached to fly x-country. Yes, you can pick up advice, you can emulate things you see other pilots do at your field or at contests, you can practice on Condor but that all won't do much good unless you really, really want to learn how to do it and - as importantly - continually strive to improve your performance. I'd like to meet the successful pilot who credits his skills to individual instructors or fellow pilots who "taught" him or her to do it. Unless you go out there and fly, mostly on your own, away from the home field and in challenging conditions, every day there's a chance to make turn points and come back, you will not be a good x-country pilot. With that said, lead and follow is mostly garbage IMHO.
> Herb

Hey, Herb, what do you REALLY think about lead and follow? Well, it worked for me when I first started flying cross country, perhaps not as tightly coupled as some here have suggested (except for one XC camp).

Tom

[Jim White[_3_]]

At 01:45 04 November 2018, wrote:
>
>After following this thread I'm nonplussed with most of the responses. In
>m=
>y experience, nobody but nobody can be told or shown or coached to fly
>x-co=
>untry. Yes, you can pick up advice, you can emulate things you see other
>pi=
>lots do at your field or at contests, you can practice on Condor but that
>a=
>ll won't do much good unless you really, really want to learn how to do
it
>=
>and - as importantly - continually strive to improve your performance.
I'd
>=
>like to meet the successful pilot who credits his skills to individual
>inst=
>ructors or fellow pilots who "taught" him or her to do it. Unless you go
>ou=
>t there and fly, mostly on your own, away from the home field and in
>challe=
>nging conditions, every day there's a chance to make turn points and come
>b=
>ack, you will not be a good x-country pilot. With that said, lead and
>follo=
>w is mostly garbage IMHO.
>Herb
>

Worked for me Herb. Reckon you should leave out the H from IMHO. Your
opinion doesn't seem very humble most of the time.

[Dan Marotta]

Well said!

For me, a single lead and follow showed me what the sky looked like from
out of gliding distance from home and that there was, in fact, lift "out
there".Â* Then I started working my way further away solo and, yes,
landing out occasionally.

On 11/3/2018 7:45 PM, wrote:
>
> After following this thread I'm nonplussed with most of the responses. In my experience, nobody but nobody can be told or shown or coached to fly x-country. Yes, you can pick up advice, you can emulate things you see other pilots do at your field or at contests, you can practice on Condor but that all won't do much good unless you really, really want to learn how to do it and - as importantly - continually strive to improve your performance. I'd like to meet the successful pilot who credits his skills to individual instructors or fellow pilots who "taught" him or her to do it. Unless you go out there and fly, mostly on your own, away from the home field and in challenging conditions, every day there's a chance to make turn points and come back, you will not be a good x-country pilot. With that said, lead and follow is mostly garbage IMHO.
> Herb

--
Dan, 5J

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, November 4, 2018 at 4:00:05 AM UTC-6, Jim White wrote:
> At 01:45 04 November 2018, wrote:
> >
> >After following this thread I'm nonplussed with most of the responses. In
> >m=
> >y experience, nobody but nobody can be told or shown or coached to fly
> >x-co=
> >untry. Yes, you can pick up advice, you can emulate things you see other
> >pi=
> >lots do at your field or at contests, you can practice on Condor but that
> >a=
> >ll won't do much good unless you really, really want to learn how to do
> it
> >=
> >and - as importantly - continually strive to improve your performance.
> I'd
> >=
> >like to meet the successful pilot who credits his skills to individual
> >inst=
> >ructors or fellow pilots who "taught" him or her to do it. Unless you go
> >ou=
> >t there and fly, mostly on your own, away from the home field and in
> >challe=
> >nging conditions, every day there's a chance to make turn points and come
> >b=
> >ack, you will not be a good x-country pilot. With that said, lead and
> >follo=
> >w is mostly garbage IMHO.
> >Herb
> >
>
> Worked for me Herb. Reckon you should leave out the H from IMHO. Your
> opinion doesn't seem very humble most of the time.

Story of my life, Jim White. Always had a hard time with humble-ness, humblety, whatever. Queen says it well in Bohemian Rhapsody:

Is this the real life? Is this just fantasy?
Caught in a landslide, no escape from reality
Open your eyes, look up to the skies and see
I'm just a poor boy, I need no sympathy
Because I'm easy come, easy go, little high, little low
Any way the wind blows doesn't really matter to me, to me

Sing along, everyone.

[Papa3[_2_]]

Worked for a recent US Nationals winner. Back about 20 years ago he headed out with me on a lead-and-follow. Being an experienced hang glider pilot and navy pilot, he understood the concept of loose formation flying. It was the first time he had seen the techniques all strung together on a task. Not a cure all, but by no means a waste of time.

P3

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, November 4, 2018 at 7:43:16 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> Queen says it well in Bohemian Rhapsody:
>
> Is this the real life? Is this just fantasy?
> Caught in a landslide, no escape from reality
> Open your eyes, look up to the skies and see
> I'm just a poor boy, I need no sympathy
> Because I'm easy come, easy go, little high, little low
> Any way the wind blows doesn't really matter to me, to me
>
> Sing along, everyone.

Looking forward to the movie in a couple hours!!!!

[Bruce Hoult]

On Sunday, November 4, 2018 at 6:49:56 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Well said!
>
> For me, a single lead and follow showed me what the sky looked like from
> out of gliding distance from home and that there was, in fact, lift "out
> there".Â* Then I started working my way further away solo and, yes,
> landing out occasionally.

Isn't it far easier to both sit in the same reasonable-performance two seater? You can't lose each other, the guy in back can shut up as much as he wants (safety pilot only) or give tips, or even maybe save the flight from time to time (e.g. if low in mountains and some precise close-in flying is needed)

Duos and DG1000s are fairly plentiful and perform as well as modern standard class, but Grobs will do the job (especially the original Twin Astir).

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, November 4, 2018 at 1:31:00 PM UTC-8, Bruce Hoult wrote:
> On Sunday, November 4, 2018 at 6:49:56 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > Well said!
> >
> > For me, a single lead and follow showed me what the sky looked like from
> > out of gliding distance from home and that there was, in fact, lift "out
> > there".Â* Then I started working my way further away solo and, yes,
> > landing out occasionally.
>
> Isn't it far easier to both sit in the same reasonable-performance two seater? You can't lose each other, the guy in back can shut up as much as he wants (safety pilot only) or give tips, or even maybe save the flight from time to time (e.g. if low in mountains and some precise close-in flying is needed)
>
> Duos and DG1000s are fairly plentiful and perform as well as modern standard class, but Grobs will do the job (especially the original Twin Astir).

This is exactly what the Cypress Soaring Club in Southern California does with our PW-6, and it works great. I had several long straight-out flights with either our instructors or highly experienced cross-country pilots, and then began to make my own long(ish) cross-country flights in my own ship. For folks who have spent most of their time hanging around in the local air, such experiences can be a real eye-opener as to the the actual performance available. We also use the straight-out flights as an opportunity to train club members the art and science of being part of a ground crew; a ground crew is required by the club for any cross-country attempts. Fun for all!

[RR]

I will chime in with several authors. First as background, I have flown lead, I have followed as a fledgling, and lead from behind. Now that I am instructing I prefer the last. As somone said, none of these techniques will make a cross country pilot out of one that is not ready or willing. But that said, part of the goal is to make fledgling pilots more comfortable away from home. Or for that matter, make the next airport feel like home (and the next, and the next...).

My experience following as a student, you don't learn much, as you just follow. As has been said, you must focus on following so not to lose the leader. For the most part, the decisions are the leaders.

Leading from behind puts the onus of keeping the formation in the hands of the more experienced pilot. Pick a "private" frequency and a lot of coaching can happen. When the student heads out, it is to the wide blue yonder, not on the heels of the instructor.

I have the privlage of a partnership in a duo, and have done a number of 2 place XC instructional flights in that. For students that are going to do there first XC in club ships (1-34 or B-4 in our case) the duo has an issue as the performance is perceived as vastly greater that the club ships. So, while we got them away from home, there is this lingering thought that "sure we went XC, but it was in a DUO". Not as effective as going in their own ship.

Now there is a place for all of this, but each has different benafits.

Rick

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

Wife and I saw it Friday night, we loved it..... have fun.....

[Francois VG]

Hi. A known reference in lead and follow flights is Klaus Ohlmann. You might wanna ask him his useful pieces of advice.

[[email protected]]

I have flown at St. Auban France many times. They use lead and follow for instruction and as a way to check-out pilots before they let them fly cross-country on their own. The instructor flew a two place with a student and there were two or three single place planes.

We would all launch and gather at a staging area with well known lift. then the instructor would announce the next meeting area and off we all went following a course given by the instructor. We were always in direct vision with the others.

The system was very dependant upon the instructor pilot being an extreme master of soaring who would charge off to join up with a pilot in trouble and lead them to a thermal and gaggle with them during the climb. Some of the saves by the instructor were memorable. The instructor flew at least twice the milage of any other plane in the group.

[[email protected]]

On Monday, November 5, 2018 at 5:16:39 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> I have flown at St. Auban France many times. They use lead and follow for instruction and as a way to check-out pilots before they let them fly cross-country on their own. The instructor flew a two place with a student and there were two or three single place planes.
>
> We would all launch and gather at a staging area with well known lift. then the instructor would announce the next meeting area and off we all went following a course given by the instructor. We were always in direct vision with the others.
>
> The system was very dependant upon the instructor pilot being an extreme master of soaring who would charge off to join up with a pilot in trouble and lead them to a thermal and gaggle with them during the climb. Some of the saves by the instructor were memorable. The instructor flew at least twice the milage of any other plane in the group.

I certainly heard about the St. Auban practice (have flown many times 'en Provence') and French instructors are the best for lead and follow, I guess. However, I much prefer to have a good instructor sitting behind me and talk me through the flight. Had a memorable one from Barcelonnette to Mt. Ventoux and back in a Grob 102. Wouldn't have made it home into the high terrain with the (German) instructor. So yes, I modify my prior statement: x-country training is a 2-seater works.
Herb