ASW 27 Instrument Panel Texture

[[email protected]]

I am making a new instrument panel for my ASW27. The original panel appears to have a textured overlay that looks similar to leather. As far as I can tell the panel was made from carbon fiber over a plug and then the texture was bonded to the panel most likely using a vacuum bagging method. It is bonded so well that it may have been part of the layup process. I would like to duplicate the same look if possible. I am looking for some help regarding possible texture materials and procedures to provide a new panel with the original manufactures results.

Thanks,
Chris

[Darryl Ramm]

Schleicher sell the panel blanks at reasonable prices. And you can maybe find the flat Nextel paint to paint them just like the factory.

[Darryl Ramm]

....and the factory panels are not carbon fiber (presumably for safety and ease of fabrcation).

[SF]

The factory panels arrive painted. Make a test panel out of lexan first. Then cut the factory panel after you verify the fits and locations. Practice on something you can throw out without tears.

[[email protected]]

On Monday, November 5, 2018 at 5:26:16 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> I am making a new instrument panel for my ASW27. The original panel appears to have a textured overlay that looks similar to leather. As far as I can tell the panel was made from carbon fiber over a plug and then the texture was bonded to the panel most likely using a vacuum bagging method. It is bonded so well that it may have been part of the layup process. I would like to duplicate the same look if possible. I am looking for some help regarding possible texture materials and procedures to provide a new panel with the original manufactures results.
>
> Thanks,
> Chris

The panel is glass and the texture is in the mold. Black Gelcoat, then glass.
If you want it like the factory, save yourself a lot of wasted time and buy one from Willaims. If you specify your cutouts, they will cut it for you very reasonably.
UH
UH

[Andy Blackburn[_3_]]

On Monday, November 5, 2018 at 5:26:16 PM UTC-5, wrote:
>> I am making a new instrument panel for my ASW27. The original panel appears to have a textured overlay that looks similar to leather. As far as I can tell the panel was made from carbon fiber over a plug and then the texture was bonded to the panel most likely using a vacuum bagging method. It is bonded so well that it may have been part of the layup process. I would like to duplicate the same look if possible. I am looking for some help regarding possible texture materials and procedures to provide a new panel with the original manufactures results.
>
> Thanks,
> Chris


Most (if not all) modern gliders use fiberglass as opposed to carbon fiber or aluminum for instrument panel construction. I have been told this is because fiberglass is less likely to act as a guillotine for your legs in a crash. I know from personal experience (as a witness) why this became a concern. Don't use carbon. The Schleicher panel blanks are cheap - unless you value your time at minimum wage or less.

When I redid my panel I made a CAD drawing of the layout and laser cut trial panels out of acrylic at a local shop, then cut the panel blank using an acrylic template and a router (the local shop wouldn't let me laser-cut fiberglass due to uncertainty about the resin and the resulting fumes). That was before Williams Soaring got their laser cutter. My recommendation is that you make a CAD (or drawing) file with the hole layout, laser cut an acrylic test panel (if you have access to a laser cutter) to check for fit and then send the file to Williams for one-stop shopping.

PM me if you'd like the CAD file I used.

Andy Blackburn
9B

[[email protected]]

Andy, when I was laying out my ASW 24 panel many years ago (OK, over a quarter century ago), I wasn't just arranging paper cutouts on the blank panel to see what would fit. There were other consideration such as clearance behind the panel, minimum distance from the edges for structural integrity, minimum distance between two instruments for structural reasons as well as interference between them, obstruction of the top edge of the panel by the glare shield (I have a Streifeneder panel with higher knee cutouts and a three-flats--vs. rounded--cover), instruments that fit 57mm or 80 mm holes but had larger dimensions behind the panel (e.g., the Cambridge and ClearNav ADCs), switches and fuses, ELT annunciator, sightline behind the control stick, etc. And now we have the larger, non-standard panel displays mounted on stalks, in the panel, behind the panel, etc. Making sure everything fit was an iterative process to a certain extent. I cut the first hole, test fitted it, then proceeded, making adjustments as necessary.

Any quick thoughts to share with the group on how you dealt with these other issues? :) I assume that's what's meant by cutting a trial panel and testing for fit. I've changed my instrumentation a bit in the last few years so am thinking about a new panel. The idea of unpacking a brand new, beautifully cut panel and discovering my favorite instrument doesn't clear something by a few mm is daunting.

Chip Bearden

[Steve Leonard[_2_]]

On Tuesday, November 6, 2018 at 1:44:31 PM UTC-6, wrote:

The idea of unpacking a brand new, beautifully cut panel and discovering my favorite instrument doesn't clear something by a few mm is daunting.

Chip Bearden

That is where we step back from the Sawzall and go to the palm sander. :-) "That plastic case doesn't need to be that thick. I will just sand a little off of there." I have seen winter varios with two of the four installation tabs sanded off and that whole side of the case flush with the OD of the back part of the instrument. I have an L-Nav that had to get a top, back corner of the case "smooshed" a bit.

Yes, initially make from something cheap for test fitting if you can. And be aware of corner radius on the panel. Otherwise, be prepared to modify instruments.

PS: I bought a panel for our club 2-33 and the mounting screw pattern on the 57 mm cutouts does not match those on the FSG-71M I was going to install.. Grrr....

[Andy Blackburn[_3_]]

On Tuesday, November 6, 2018 at 11:44:31 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> Andy, when I was laying out my ASW 24 panel many years ago (OK, over a quarter century ago), I wasn't just arranging paper cutouts on the blank panel to see what would fit. There were other consideration such as clearance behind the panel, minimum distance from the edges for structural integrity, minimum distance between two instruments for structural reasons as well as interference between them, obstruction of the top edge of the panel by the glare shield (I have a Streifeneder panel with higher knee cutouts and a three-flats--vs. rounded--cover), instruments that fit 57mm or 80 mm holes but had larger dimensions behind the panel (e.g., the Cambridge and ClearNav ADCs), switches and fuses, ELT annunciator, sightline behind the control stick, etc. And now we have the larger, non-standard panel displays mounted on stalks, in the panel, behind the panel, etc. Making sure everything fit was an iterative process to a certain extent. I cut the first hole, test fitted it, then proceeded, making adjustments as necessary.
>
> Any quick thoughts to share with the group on how you dealt with these other issues? :) I assume that's what's meant by cutting a trial panel and testing for fit. I've changed my instrumentation a bit in the last few years so am thinking about a new panel. The idea of unpacking a brand new, beautifully cut panel and discovering my favorite instrument doesn't clear something by a few mm is daunting.
>
> Chip Bearden

Chip,

I measured and modeled all the instruments in 2D - including the holes and the case cross-sections. I managed to arrange them such that they form a near-solid block (many of them touch cases to add stability). I also measured the backside of the panel because there is some curvature and wall thickness to account for, so I created a standoff buffer/border around the edge.

I taught myself to use AutoCAD as part of this exercise, so I did some simple checks to ensure that there was clearance along the length of each instrument. With some additional effort you can create a 3D model of the instrument panel and cavity as well as each instrument. I didn't find this necessary for the -27. A friend who did a panel for his Ventus used SolidWorks to make a full 3D model (Fusion 360 will allow you to do this without spending $4000 on software). It may help for specific situations though generally there isn't a significant constraint unless your instruments are super-deep.

Here's a link to the panel layout I did. You can see each instrument case is modeled in addition to the cutouts - as well as the panel backside offset.. I used very tight tolerances for the instrument holes - so much so that I had to do a little bit of sanding on some holes to fit the the instrument. Makes for a very clean installation - much better than you get using a standard hole cutter and suits my perfectionist streak.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1YHj9LAurn8ZYq_yGVcVONRIDR67sUJlY

Andy

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, November 6, 2018 at 2:43:14 PM UTC-6, Andy Blackburn wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 6, 2018 at 11:44:31 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> > Andy, when I was laying out my ASW 24 panel many years ago (OK, over a quarter century ago), I wasn't just arranging paper cutouts on the blank panel to see what would fit. There were other consideration such as clearance behind the panel, minimum distance from the edges for structural integrity, minimum distance between two instruments for structural reasons as well as interference between them, obstruction of the top edge of the panel by the glare shield (I have a Streifeneder panel with higher knee cutouts and a three-flats--vs. rounded--cover), instruments that fit 57mm or 80 mm holes but had larger dimensions behind the panel (e.g., the Cambridge and ClearNav ADCs), switches and fuses, ELT annunciator, sightline behind the control stick, etc. And now we have the larger, non-standard panel displays mounted on stalks, in the panel, behind the panel, etc. Making sure everything fit was an iterative process to a certain extent. I cut the first hole, test fitted it, then proceeded, making adjustments as necessary.
> >
> > Any quick thoughts to share with the group on how you dealt with these other issues? :) I assume that's what's meant by cutting a trial panel and testing for fit. I've changed my instrumentation a bit in the last few years so am thinking about a new panel. The idea of unpacking a brand new, beautifully cut panel and discovering my favorite instrument doesn't clear something by a few mm is daunting.
> >
> > Chip Bearden
>
> Chip,
>
> I measured and modeled all the instruments in 2D - including the holes and the case cross-sections. I managed to arrange them such that they form a near-solid block (many of them touch cases to add stability). I also measured the backside of the panel because there is some curvature and wall thickness to account for, so I created a standoff buffer/border around the edge.
>
> I taught myself to use AutoCAD as part of this exercise, so I did some simple checks to ensure that there was clearance along the length of each instrument. With some additional effort you can create a 3D model of the instrument panel and cavity as well as each instrument. I didn't find this necessary for the -27. A friend who did a panel for his Ventus used SolidWorks to make a full 3D model (Fusion 360 will allow you to do this without spending $4000 on software). It may help for specific situations though generally there isn't a significant constraint unless your instruments are super-deep.
>
> Here's a link to the panel layout I did. You can see each instrument case is modeled in addition to the cutouts - as well as the panel backside offset. I used very tight tolerances for the instrument holes - so much so that I had to do a little bit of sanding on some holes to fit the the instrument. Makes for a very clean installation - much better than you get using a standard hole cutter and suits my perfectionist streak.
>
> https://drive.google.com/open?id=1YHj9LAurn8ZYq_yGVcVONRIDR67sUJlY
>
> Andy


Thank you all for your input and great advice,

The panel project is well under way with the exception of the surface texture. I have made a mold off of an existing retired 27 panel and plan to make a number of extras. This will be for future instrument upgrades as time marches on. The soaring instruments are changing at such a rapid rate I anticipate further upgrades every 5 to 10 years or so.

Using glass instead of carbon was a enlightening. I was not aware of the potential safety issues with a carbon panel. The surface texture will most likely be applied with a spray gun. Looking at my retired 27 panel, the surface texture sure looks like an overlay. Around the edges and especially the leg radius areas you can see the stretch marks from the overlay material. Before cutting any holes in the new panels, a prototype will be made with acrylic or aluminum for fit and function.

Thanks,
Chris

Chris

[[email protected]]

> I measured and modeled all the instruments in 2D - including the holes and the case cross-sections. I managed to arrange them such that they form a near-solid block (many of them touch cases to add stability). I also measured the backside of the panel because there is some curvature and wall thickness to account for, so I created a standoff buffer/border around the edge.
>
> I taught myself to use AutoCAD as part of this exercise, so I did some simple checks to ensure that there was clearance along the length of each instrument. With some additional effort you can create a 3D model of the instrument panel and cavity as well as each instrument. I didn't find this necessary for the -27. A friend who did a panel for his Ventus used SolidWorks to make a full 3D model (Fusion 360 will allow you to do this without spending $4000 on software). It may help for specific situations though generally there isn't a significant constraint unless your instruments are super-deep.
>
> Here's a link to the panel layout I did. You can see each instrument case is modeled in addition to the cutouts - as well as the panel backside offset. I used very tight tolerances for the instrument holes - so much so that I had to do a little bit of sanding on some holes to fit the the instrument. Makes for a very clean installation - much better than you get using a standard hole cutter and suits my perfectionist streak.
>
> https://drive.google.com/open?id=1YHj9LAurn8ZYq_yGVcVONRIDR67sUJlY
>
> Andy

Sweet! I expected no less from you.

Sorta like I did 27 years ago. In my workshop, I occasionally find one of the cardboard circle templates I used to draw around before I used my saber saw (rough work; e.g., ASI) or coping saw (fine work; e.g., the adjustment tab on my altimeter) to make the cutouts. Like you, I had to do a little sanding, too. :)

Of course, the next level of sophistication is "future proofing" your panel by building in the ability to accommodate a range of possible/likely instrument changes/upgrades. When I added the proprietary CAI sleeve/RAM mount for the Compaq 1550 handheld 20+ years ago, I'd cleverly left room for another 57mm instrument. So I plopped the CAI mount on the existing hole and moved the clock to the new hole I cut.

Technology marches on.

Chip Bearden

[Bob Kuykendall]

I'd suggest going down to the local flooring store and check out the textures on both sides of various linoleum products. You might find something quite similar to the one on the AS panel.

[jfitch]

On Tuesday, November 6, 2018 at 11:44:31 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> Andy, when I was laying out my ASW 24 panel many years ago (OK, over a quarter century ago), I wasn't just arranging paper cutouts on the blank panel to see what would fit. There were other consideration such as clearance behind the panel, minimum distance from the edges for structural integrity, minimum distance between two instruments for structural reasons as well as interference between them, obstruction of the top edge of the panel by the glare shield (I have a Streifeneder panel with higher knee cutouts and a three-flats--vs. rounded--cover), instruments that fit 57mm or 80 mm holes but had larger dimensions behind the panel (e.g., the Cambridge and ClearNav ADCs), switches and fuses, ELT annunciator, sightline behind the control stick, etc. And now we have the larger, non-standard panel displays mounted on stalks, in the panel, behind the panel, etc. Making sure everything fit was an iterative process to a certain extent. I cut the first hole, test fitted it, then proceeded, making adjustments as necessary.
>
> Any quick thoughts to share with the group on how you dealt with these other issues? :) I assume that's what's meant by cutting a trial panel and testing for fit. I've changed my instrumentation a bit in the last few years so am thinking about a new panel. The idea of unpacking a brand new, beautifully cut panel and discovering my favorite instrument doesn't clear something by a few mm is daunting.
>
> Chip Bearden

I'd suggest making up the layout you like in CAD, then have a piece of waste material (G10, acrylic, or whatever) cut to that plan. Then assemble all the actual instruments onto the test piece, hold it in place, and see if it all really fits. Then cut the edges right down close to the instruments and see if the test piece fits inside the real panel. This tests for clearance to the radius of the molded piece. Do not depend on the AS drawings if you are pushing things to the edge. It also allows you to locate the test piece (and therefore the CNC) to the real panel (which has no reliable center line and will be asymmetric to some extent).

[Dan Marotta]

I've sanded a couple of instruments to make them fit into my panel...

On 11/6/2018 1:41 PM, Steve Leonard wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 6, 2018 at 1:44:31 PM UTC-6, wrote:
>
> The idea of unpacking a brand new, beautifully cut panel and discovering my favorite instrument doesn't clear something by a few mm is daunting.
>
> Chip Bearden
>
> That is where we step back from the Sawzall and go to the palm sander. :-) "That plastic case doesn't need to be that thick. I will just sand a little off of there." I have seen winter varios with two of the four installation tabs sanded off and that whole side of the case flush with the OD of the back part of the instrument. I have an L-Nav that had to get a top, back corner of the case "smooshed" a bit.
>
> Yes, initially make from something cheap for test fitting if you can. And be aware of corner radius on the panel. Otherwise, be prepared to modify instruments.
>
> PS: I bought a panel for our club 2-33 and the mounting screw pattern on the 57 mm cutouts does not match those on the FSG-71M I was going to install. Grrr....
>

--
Dan, 5J

[Dan Marotta]

You might try trunk paint on your panel.Â* It has a random texture and
then you can spray another color over the top.Â* I've also used wrinkle
paint.Â* It makes a nice texture.

On 11/6/2018 2:14 PM, wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 6, 2018 at 2:43:14 PM UTC-6, Andy Blackburn wrote:
>> On Tuesday, November 6, 2018 at 11:44:31 AM UTC-8, wrote:
>>> Andy, when I was laying out my ASW 24 panel many years ago (OK, over a quarter century ago), I wasn't just arranging paper cutouts on the blank panel to see what would fit. There were other consideration such as clearance behind the panel, minimum distance from the edges for structural integrity, minimum distance between two instruments for structural reasons as well as interference between them, obstruction of the top edge of the panel by the glare shield (I have a Streifeneder panel with higher knee cutouts and a three-flats--vs. rounded--cover), instruments that fit 57mm or 80 mm holes but had larger dimensions behind the panel (e.g., the Cambridge and ClearNav ADCs), switches and fuses, ELT annunciator, sightline behind the control stick, etc. And now we have the larger, non-standard panel displays mounted on stalks, in the panel, behind the panel, etc. Making sure everything fit was an iterative process to a certain extent. I cut the first hole, test fitted it, then proceeded, making adjustments as necessary.
>>>
>>> Any quick thoughts to share with the group on how you dealt with these other issues? :) I assume that's what's meant by cutting a trial panel and testing for fit. I've changed my instrumentation a bit in the last few years so am thinking about a new panel. The idea of unpacking a brand new, beautifully cut panel and discovering my favorite instrument doesn't clear something by a few mm is daunting.
>>>
>>> Chip Bearden
>> Chip,
>>
>> I measured and modeled all the instruments in 2D - including the holes and the case cross-sections. I managed to arrange them such that they form a near-solid block (many of them touch cases to add stability). I also measured the backside of the panel because there is some curvature and wall thickness to account for, so I created a standoff buffer/border around the edge.
>>
>> I taught myself to use AutoCAD as part of this exercise, so I did some simple checks to ensure that there was clearance along the length of each instrument. With some additional effort you can create a 3D model of the instrument panel and cavity as well as each instrument. I didn't find this necessary for the -27. A friend who did a panel for his Ventus used SolidWorks to make a full 3D model (Fusion 360 will allow you to do this without spending $4000 on software). It may help for specific situations though generally there isn't a significant constraint unless your instruments are super-deep.
>>
>> Here's a link to the panel layout I did. You can see each instrument case is modeled in addition to the cutouts - as well as the panel backside offset. I used very tight tolerances for the instrument holes - so much so that I had to do a little bit of sanding on some holes to fit the the instrument. Makes for a very clean installation - much better than you get using a standard hole cutter and suits my perfectionist streak.
>>
>> https://drive.google.com/open?id=1YHj9LAurn8ZYq_yGVcVONRIDR67sUJlY
>>
>> Andy
>
> Thank you all for your input and great advice,
>
> The panel project is well under way with the exception of the surface texture. I have made a mold off of an existing retired 27 panel and plan to make a number of extras. This will be for future instrument upgrades as time marches on. The soaring instruments are changing at such a rapid rate I anticipate further upgrades every 5 to 10 years or so.
>
> Using glass instead of carbon was a enlightening. I was not aware of the potential safety issues with a carbon panel. The surface texture will most likely be applied with a spray gun. Looking at my retired 27 panel, the surface texture sure looks like an overlay. Around the edges and especially the leg radius areas you can see the stretch marks from the overlay material. Before cutting any holes in the new panels, a prototype will be made with acrylic or aluminum for fit and function.
>
> Thanks,
> Chris
>
> Chris

--
Dan, 5J

[krasw]

On Tuesday, November 6, 2018 at 12:26:16 AM UTC+2, wrote:
> I am making a new instrument panel for my ASW27. The original panel appears to have a textured overlay that looks similar to leather. As far as I can tell the panel was made from carbon fiber over a plug and then the texture was bonded to the panel most likely using a vacuum bagging method. It is bonded so well that it may have been part of the layup process. I would like to duplicate the same look if possible. I am looking for some help regarding possible texture materials and procedures to provide a new panel with the original manufactures results.
>
> Thanks,
> Chris

Why not make flat surface panel instead of that horrible Schleicher texture straight from the 70's? Paint it with grey Nextel paint and you have a beautiful, modern looking panel. That how factories do it nowadays, it is easy to do yourself.

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, November 6, 2018 at 4:14:45 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 6, 2018 at 2:43:14 PM UTC-6, Andy Blackburn wrote:
> > On Tuesday, November 6, 2018 at 11:44:31 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> > > Andy, when I was laying out my ASW 24 panel many years ago (OK, over a quarter century ago), I wasn't just arranging paper cutouts on the blank panel to see what would fit. There were other consideration such as clearance behind the panel, minimum distance from the edges for structural integrity, minimum distance between two instruments for structural reasons as well as interference between them, obstruction of the top edge of the panel by the glare shield (I have a Streifeneder panel with higher knee cutouts and a three-flats--vs. rounded--cover), instruments that fit 57mm or 80 mm holes but had larger dimensions behind the panel (e.g., the Cambridge and ClearNav ADCs), switches and fuses, ELT annunciator, sightline behind the control stick, etc. And now we have the larger, non-standard panel displays mounted on stalks, in the panel, behind the panel, etc. Making sure everything fit was an iterative process to a certain extent. I cut the first hole, test fitted it, then proceeded, making adjustments as necessary.
> > >
> > > Any quick thoughts to share with the group on how you dealt with these other issues? :) I assume that's what's meant by cutting a trial panel and testing for fit. I've changed my instrumentation a bit in the last few years so am thinking about a new panel. The idea of unpacking a brand new, beautifully cut panel and discovering my favorite instrument doesn't clear something by a few mm is daunting.
> > >
> > > Chip Bearden
> >
> > Chip,
> >
> > I measured and modeled all the instruments in 2D - including the holes and the case cross-sections. I managed to arrange them such that they form a near-solid block (many of them touch cases to add stability). I also measured the backside of the panel because there is some curvature and wall thickness to account for, so I created a standoff buffer/border around the edge.
> >
> > I taught myself to use AutoCAD as part of this exercise, so I did some simple checks to ensure that there was clearance along the length of each instrument. With some additional effort you can create a 3D model of the instrument panel and cavity as well as each instrument. I didn't find this necessary for the -27. A friend who did a panel for his Ventus used SolidWorks to make a full 3D model (Fusion 360 will allow you to do this without spending $4000 on software). It may help for specific situations though generally there isn't a significant constraint unless your instruments are super-deep.
> >
> > Here's a link to the panel layout I did. You can see each instrument case is modeled in addition to the cutouts - as well as the panel backside offset. I used very tight tolerances for the instrument holes - so much so that I had to do a little bit of sanding on some holes to fit the the instrument. Makes for a very clean installation - much better than you get using a standard hole cutter and suits my perfectionist streak.
> >
> > https://drive.google.com/open?id=1YHj9LAurn8ZYq_yGVcVONRIDR67sUJlY
> >
> > Andy
>
>
> Thank you all for your input and great advice,
>
> The panel project is well under way with the exception of the surface texture. I have made a mold off of an existing retired 27 panel and plan to make a number of extras. This will be for future instrument upgrades as time marches on. The soaring instruments are changing at such a rapid rate I anticipate further upgrades every 5 to 10 years or so.
>
> Using glass instead of carbon was a enlightening. I was not aware of the potential safety issues with a carbon panel. The surface texture will most likely be applied with a spray gun. Looking at my retired 27 panel, the surface texture sure looks like an overlay. Around the edges and especially the leg radius areas you can see the stretch marks from the overlay material.. Before cutting any holes in the new panels, a prototype will be made with acrylic or aluminum for fit and function.
>
> Thanks,
> Chris
>
> Chris

I have refinished modified or repaired panels by surfacing with spray filler and sanding smooth and flat to a 220 finish. Then I spray with Rustoleum black texture paint. When that has dried I overcoat with SEM trim black satin paint. Texture hides the tiny flaws and gives a nice appearance.
FWIW
UH

[Dave Nadler]

On Wednesday, November 7, 2018 at 8:58:35 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> Rustoleum black texture paint.... hides the tiny flaws...

And some not-so-tiny ;-)

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Tuesday, November 6, 2018 at 12:43:14 PM UTC-8, Andy Blackburn wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 6, 2018 at 11:44:31 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> > Andy, when I was laying out my ASW 24 panel many years ago (OK, over a quarter century ago), I wasn't just arranging paper cutouts on the blank panel to see what would fit. There were other consideration such as clearance behind the panel, minimum distance from the edges for structural integrity, minimum distance between two instruments for structural reasons as well as interference between them, obstruction of the top edge of the panel by the glare shield (I have a Streifeneder panel with higher knee cutouts and a three-flats--vs. rounded--cover), instruments that fit 57mm or 80 mm holes but had larger dimensions behind the panel (e.g., the Cambridge and ClearNav ADCs), switches and fuses, ELT annunciator, sightline behind the control stick, etc. And now we have the larger, non-standard panel displays mounted on stalks, in the panel, behind the panel, etc. Making sure everything fit was an iterative process to a certain extent. I cut the first hole, test fitted it, then proceeded, making adjustments as necessary.
> >
> > Any quick thoughts to share with the group on how you dealt with these other issues? :) I assume that's what's meant by cutting a trial panel and testing for fit. I've changed my instrumentation a bit in the last few years so am thinking about a new panel. The idea of unpacking a brand new, beautifully cut panel and discovering my favorite instrument doesn't clear something by a few mm is daunting.
> >
> > Chip Bearden
>
> Chip,
>
> I measured and modeled all the instruments in 2D - including the holes and the case cross-sections. I managed to arrange them such that they form a near-solid block (many of them touch cases to add stability). I also measured the backside of the panel because there is some curvature and wall thickness to account for, so I created a standoff buffer/border around the edge.
>
> I taught myself to use AutoCAD as part of this exercise, so I did some simple checks to ensure that there was clearance along the length of each instrument. With some additional effort you can create a 3D model of the instrument panel and cavity as well as each instrument. I didn't find this necessary for the -27. A friend who did a panel for his Ventus used SolidWorks to make a full 3D model (Fusion 360 will allow you to do this without spending $4000 on software). It may help for specific situations though generally there isn't a significant constraint unless your instruments are super-deep.
>
> Here's a link to the panel layout I did. You can see each instrument case is modeled in addition to the cutouts - as well as the panel backside offset. I used very tight tolerances for the instrument holes - so much so that I had to do a little bit of sanding on some holes to fit the the instrument. Makes for a very clean installation - much better than you get using a standard hole cutter and suits my perfectionist streak.
>
> https://drive.google.com/open?id=1YHj9LAurn8ZYq_yGVcVONRIDR67sUJlY
>
> Andy

I paid $500 to have someone else professionally do it.

[[email protected]]

> Why not make flat surface panel instead of that horrible Schleicher texture straight from the 70's?

How about a Win 10 look? Make the panel from smoked Lexan (or something a little more forgiving in a crash) for that transparent effect. Add some strategically placed behind-the-panel LEDs and you could see your instruments--ALL of them, tubing, wiring, connectors, etc.

Chip Bearden

[SF]

Swirl paint it like they do guitars. Defy convention.

[Matt Herron Jr.]

On Tuesday, November 6, 2018 at 11:44:31 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> Andy, when I was laying out my ASW 24 panel many years ago (OK, over a quarter century ago), I wasn't just arranging paper cutouts on the blank panel to see what would fit. There were other consideration such as clearance behind the panel, minimum distance from the edges for structural integrity, minimum distance between two instruments for structural reasons as well as interference between them, obstruction of the top edge of the panel by the glare shield (I have a Streifeneder panel with higher knee cutouts and a three-flats--vs. rounded--cover), instruments that fit 57mm or 80 mm holes but had larger dimensions behind the panel (e.g., the Cambridge and ClearNav ADCs), switches and fuses, ELT annunciator, sightline behind the control stick, etc. And now we have the larger, non-standard panel displays mounted on stalks, in the panel, behind the panel, etc. Making sure everything fit was an iterative process to a certain extent. I cut the first hole, test fitted it, then proceeded, making adjustments as necessary.
>
> Any quick thoughts to share with the group on how you dealt with these other issues? :) I assume that's what's meant by cutting a trial panel and testing for fit. I've changed my instrumentation a bit in the last few years so am thinking about a new panel. The idea of unpacking a brand new, beautifully cut panel and discovering my favorite instrument doesn't clear something by a few mm is daunting.
>
> Chip Bearden

Best way to handle this issue is to model the panel and components in full 3D. That's what I did for my asw27 panel update. I then laser cut panels from plex and installed the instruments with it in the cockpit. then you can sit in the cockpit and verify you can see the ASI around the PDA on a stalk, etc. I went through three revisions of plex panels before I got it perfect.

[[email protected]]

Why do we insist on black instrument panels in any case ? less reflection maybe ? I have a spare white instrument panel and don't want to paint it ......
Dan
On Monday, November 5, 2018 at 5:26:16 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> I am making a new instrument panel for my ASW27. The original panel appears to have a textured overlay that looks similar to leather. As far as I can tell the panel was made from carbon fiber over a plug and then the texture was bonded to the panel most likely using a vacuum bagging method. It is bonded so well that it may have been part of the layup process. I would like to duplicate the same look if possible. I am looking for some help regarding possible texture materials and procedures to provide a new panel with the original manufactures results.
>
> Thanks,
> Chris

[Dan Marotta]

I had a sky blue panel in my ASW-19b yearsÂ* back.Â* Light gray is also
very nice.Â* My Stemme has one of those dip type decals that makes it
look like carbon fiber, even on the inside of instrument and switch
cutouts.Â* It's so good I actually thought it /_was_/ carbon fiber until
I had occasion to enlarge a switch hole.Â* It's aluminum!

On 11/9/2018 9:09 AM, wrote:
> Why do we insist on black instrument panels in any case ? less reflection maybe ? I have a spare white instrument panel and don't want to paint it .....
> Dan
> On Monday, November 5, 2018 at 5:26:16 PM UTC-5, wrote:
>> I am making a new instrument panel for my ASW27. The original panel appears to have a textured overlay that looks similar to leather. As far as I can tell the panel was made from carbon fiber over a plug and then the texture was bonded to the panel most likely using a vacuum bagging method. It is bonded so well that it may have been part of the layup process. I would like to duplicate the same look if possible. I am looking for some help regarding possible texture materials and procedures to provide a new panel with the original manufactures results.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Chris

--
Dan, 5J

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Friday, November 9, 2018 at 8:10:00 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> Why do we insist on black instrument panels in any case ? less reflection maybe ? I have a spare white instrument panel and don't want to paint it ......
> Dan
> On Monday, November 5, 2018 at 5:26:16 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> > I am making a new instrument panel for my ASW27. The original panel appears to have a textured overlay that looks similar to leather. As far as I can tell the panel was made from carbon fiber over a plug and then the texture was bonded to the panel most likely using a vacuum bagging method. It is bonded so well that it may have been part of the layup process. I would like to duplicate the same look if possible. I am looking for some help regarding possible texture materials and procedures to provide a new panel with the original manufactures results.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Chris

I have always had a grey panel. Wonder if the color of Russian cockpits would be good for gliders?

[Robert Seccombe]

I am in the process of creating an entirely new panel that will also tilt up for my Ventus C. I have 3D printed replicas of everything that will be mounted. Out of 1/8" plywood I have laser cut a panel as it is to be laid out; actually I am on the 4th one and I found something on it to adjust a bit. It is mounted on the tilt-up frame and has been well worth the effort; I could see what would interfere with the frame and with other components.

As many times as I have taken everything off and placed them on a new version of the panel I know it has saved a lot of wear and tear on real components.

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, November 6, 2018 at 9:04:15 PM UTC-5, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
> I'd suggest going down to the local flooring store and check out the textures on both sides of various linoleum products. You might find something quite similar to the one on the AS panel.

Textured sheet plastic would be another good source of the texturing.

https://www.eplastics.com/sheets/abs/textured-general-purpose?gclid=Cj0KCQiAw5_fBRCSARIsAGodhk_2uoakSsWd tc2EPM35uSWGZMGmNloGuleQTmOkthtk8VcuD1ONwtgaAuJ0EA Lw_wcB

Chris

[[email protected]]

> Best way to handle this issue is to model the panel and components in full 3D.

I have drawn up a lot of my instruments in 3D for my mosquito panel. It would be good if someone hosted a database of 2D and 3D CAD files of all the instruments, panels etc so we didn't need to redraw. I have drawn up the flarm brick, antennae, and several standard instruments that I could share.
Chris

[[email protected]]

> I measured and modeled all the instruments in 2D - including the holes and the case cross-sections. I managed to arrange them such that they form a near-solid block (many of them touch cases to add stability). I also measured the backside of the panel because there is some curvature and wall thickness to account for, so I created a standoff buffer/border around the edge.
>
> I taught myself to use AutoCAD as part of this exercise, so I did some simple checks to ensure that there was clearance along the length of each instrument. With some additional effort you can create a 3D model of the instrument panel and cavity as well as each instrument. I didn't find this necessary for the -27. A friend who did a panel for his Ventus used SolidWorks to make a full 3D model (Fusion 360 will allow you to do this without spending $4000 on software). It may help for specific situations though generally there isn't a significant constraint unless your instruments are super-deep.
>

Solidworks is not that expensive for home use.

Join the EAA for $26-40/yr. depending on if you get it on sale. It is the student edition, but a great way to learn, stay current or do personal projects Exactly like this (the student edition is fine for this).

https://www.eaa.org/en/eaa/eaa-membership/eaa-member-benefits/solidworks-resource-center

Chris

[Matt Herron Jr.]

On Sunday, November 11, 2018 at 5:05:52 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> > Best way to handle this issue is to model the panel and components in full 3D.
>
> I have drawn up a lot of my instruments in 3D for my mosquito panel. It would be good if someone hosted a database of 2D and 3D CAD files of all the instruments, panels etc so we didn't need to redraw. I have drawn up the flarm brick, antennae, and several standard instruments that I could share.
> Chris

I will post my 3D database (in .STEP format) to DropBox later today. (I can post in native Solidworks too if anyone is interested) I have a model for a Ventus C panel, and an ASW27b panel. For the 27b I designed in a horizontal plate to mount internal instruments like TT22 encoder, flarm, GPS and FLARM antennas, etc.

Matt

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, November 11, 2018 at 10:38:48 AM UTC-5, Matt Herron Jr. wrote:
> On Sunday, November 11, 2018 at 5:05:52 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> > > Best way to handle this issue is to model the panel and components in full 3D.
> >
> > I have drawn up a lot of my instruments in 3D for my mosquito panel. It would be good if someone hosted a database of 2D and 3D CAD files of all the instruments, panels etc so we didn't need to redraw. I have drawn up the flarm brick, antennae, and several standard instruments that I could share.
> > Chris
>
> I will post my 3D database (in .STEP format) to DropBox later today. (I can post in native Solidworks too if anyone is interested) I have a model for a Ventus C panel, and an ASW27b panel. For the 27b I designed in a horizontal plate to mount internal instruments like TT22 encoder, flarm, GPS and FLARM antennas, etc.
>
> Matt

Please do post your native SW files too.
Thanks
Chris

[Matt Herron Jr.]

On Sunday, November 11, 2018 at 9:33:07 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> On Sunday, November 11, 2018 at 10:38:48 AM UTC-5, Matt Herron Jr. wrote:
> > On Sunday, November 11, 2018 at 5:05:52 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> > > > Best way to handle this issue is to model the panel and components in full 3D.
> > >
> > > I have drawn up a lot of my instruments in 3D for my mosquito panel. It would be good if someone hosted a database of 2D and 3D CAD files of all the instruments, panels etc so we didn't need to redraw. I have drawn up the flarm brick, antennae, and several standard instruments that I could share.
> > > Chris
> >
> > I will post my 3D database (in .STEP format) to DropBox later today. (I can post in native Solidworks too if anyone is interested) I have a model for a Ventus C panel, and an ASW27b panel. For the 27b I designed in a horizontal plate to mount internal instruments like TT22 encoder, flarm, GPS and FLARM antennas, etc.
> >
> > Matt
>
> Please do post your native SW files too.
> Thanks
> Chris

Here is the link to the dropbox where asw27b panel is stored: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/n1j67ov2a87ozkp/AABgNsVQWu5Q226Y3qmfA-kHa?dl=0

Let me know if there are any issues. There is a jpeg in there to give you an idea of what you will find in the cad files. Also, you should see the Ventus C panel folder, and a folder that has a popular design I did for wingtip tie-downs on the Ventus. Take off the wingtips, slide in the tie down, flip the lever and you are secure...

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, November 11, 2018 at 1:33:46 PM UTC-5, Matt Herron Jr. wrote:
> On Sunday, November 11, 2018 at 9:33:07 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> > On Sunday, November 11, 2018 at 10:38:48 AM UTC-5, Matt Herron Jr. wrote:
> > > On Sunday, November 11, 2018 at 5:05:52 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> > > > > Best way to handle this issue is to model the panel and components in full 3D.
> > > >
> > > > I have drawn up a lot of my instruments in 3D for my mosquito panel. It would be good if someone hosted a database of 2D and 3D CAD files of all the instruments, panels etc so we didn't need to redraw. I have drawn up the flarm brick, antennae, and several standard instruments that I could share.
> > > > Chris
> > >
> > > I will post my 3D database (in .STEP format) to DropBox later today. (I can post in native Solidworks too if anyone is interested) I have a model for a Ventus C panel, and an ASW27b panel. For the 27b I designed in a horizontal plate to mount internal instruments like TT22 encoder, flarm, GPS and FLARM antennas, etc.
> > >
> > > Matt
> >
> > Please do post your native SW files too.
> > Thanks
> > Chris
>
> Here is the link to the dropbox where asw27b panel is stored: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/n1j67ov2a87ozkp/AABgNsVQWu5Q226Y3qmfA-kHa?dl=0
>
> Let me know if there are any issues. There is a jpeg in there to give you an idea of what you will find in the cad files. Also, you should see the Ventus C panel folder, and a folder that has a popular design I did for wingtip tie-downs on the Ventus. Take off the wingtips, slide in the tie down, flip the lever and you are secure...

Thanks for posting that. BTW what version of Solidworks is it?
Also I could only see the step file and SW files for the 27, not sure if you also wanted to share out the ventus files then you'd need to add another link for those.
Chris

[Matt Herron Jr.]

On Sunday, November 11, 2018 at 12:57:56 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> On Sunday, November 11, 2018 at 1:33:46 PM UTC-5, Matt Herron Jr. wrote:
> > On Sunday, November 11, 2018 at 9:33:07 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> > > On Sunday, November 11, 2018 at 10:38:48 AM UTC-5, Matt Herron Jr. wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, November 11, 2018 at 5:05:52 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> > > > > > Best way to handle this issue is to model the panel and components in full 3D.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have drawn up a lot of my instruments in 3D for my mosquito panel. It would be good if someone hosted a database of 2D and 3D CAD files of all the instruments, panels etc so we didn't need to redraw. I have drawn up the flarm brick, antennae, and several standard instruments that I could share.
> > > > > Chris
> > > >
> > > > I will post my 3D database (in .STEP format) to DropBox later today.. (I can post in native Solidworks too if anyone is interested) I have a model for a Ventus C panel, and an ASW27b panel. For the 27b I designed in a horizontal plate to mount internal instruments like TT22 encoder, flarm, GPS and FLARM antennas, etc.
> > > >
> > > > Matt
> > >
> > > Please do post your native SW files too.
> > > Thanks
> > > Chris
> >
> > Here is the link to the dropbox where asw27b panel is stored: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/n1j67ov2a87ozkp/AABgNsVQWu5Q226Y3qmfA-kHa?dl=0
> >
> > Let me know if there are any issues. There is a jpeg in there to give you an idea of what you will find in the cad files. Also, you should see the Ventus C panel folder, and a folder that has a popular design I did for wingtip tie-downs on the Ventus. Take off the wingtips, slide in the tie down, flip the lever and you are secure...
>
> Thanks for posting that. BTW what version of Solidworks is it?
> Also I could only see the step file and SW files for the 27, not sure if you also wanted to share out the ventus files then you'd need to add another link for those.
> Chris

Try this link: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/q8x9qgtumjcla8q/AADvHCo3QMZpEVVYkuGfcp0La?dl=0

[Matt Herron Jr.]

On Sunday, November 11, 2018 at 12:57:56 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> On Sunday, November 11, 2018 at 1:33:46 PM UTC-5, Matt Herron Jr. wrote:
> > On Sunday, November 11, 2018 at 9:33:07 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> > > On Sunday, November 11, 2018 at 10:38:48 AM UTC-5, Matt Herron Jr. wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, November 11, 2018 at 5:05:52 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> > > > > > Best way to handle this issue is to model the panel and components in full 3D.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have drawn up a lot of my instruments in 3D for my mosquito panel. It would be good if someone hosted a database of 2D and 3D CAD files of all the instruments, panels etc so we didn't need to redraw. I have drawn up the flarm brick, antennae, and several standard instruments that I could share.
> > > > > Chris
> > > >
> > > > I will post my 3D database (in .STEP format) to DropBox later today.. (I can post in native Solidworks too if anyone is interested) I have a model for a Ventus C panel, and an ASW27b panel. For the 27b I designed in a horizontal plate to mount internal instruments like TT22 encoder, flarm, GPS and FLARM antennas, etc.
> > > >
> > > > Matt
> > >
> > > Please do post your native SW files too.
> > > Thanks
> > > Chris
> >
> > Here is the link to the dropbox where asw27b panel is stored: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/n1j67ov2a87ozkp/AABgNsVQWu5Q226Y3qmfA-kHa?dl=0
> >
> > Let me know if there are any issues. There is a jpeg in there to give you an idea of what you will find in the cad files. Also, you should see the Ventus C panel folder, and a folder that has a popular design I did for wingtip tie-downs on the Ventus. Take off the wingtips, slide in the tie down, flip the lever and you are secure...
>
> Thanks for posting that. BTW what version of Solidworks is it?
> Also I could only see the step file and SW files for the 27, not sure if you also wanted to share out the ventus files then you'd need to add another link for those.
> Chris

Chris,

It is a mixture of SW 2012 and SW 2018. I think the Ventus is all 2012.

[OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net]

Here is a short presentation on refinishing a fiberglass panel on my old DG and another fellow's PIK with faux carbon fiber.

http://aviation.derosaweb.net/presentations/#carbonfiber

- John OHM Ω

[krasw]

On Monday, 12 November 2018 03:49:12 UTC+2, OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net wrote:
> Here is a short presentation on refinishing a fiberglass panel on my old DG and another fellow's PIK with faux carbon fiber.
>
> http://aviation.derosaweb.net/presentations/#carbonfiber
>
> - John OHM Ω

Anyone can layup new glass/carbon panel over positive mold in half the work hours described in presentation.

When planning panel remember to measure depth of instruments, not only their outline on the panel. Many gliders have structure behind panel that restricts placement.

[Dan Marotta]

Blasphemy!Â* That Ferrari should be red!

While your results looked great, a hydro dip costs a lot less, adds less
weight, and no sharp spikes in a crash.Â* The aluminum panel in my Stemme
has a hydro dip aluminum look.

THIS is what a carbon fiber dip looks like.
<https://www.dropbox.com/s/qakd33xjipp1dnv/DSC04946-1-2%20Colorado%20Thermal.jpg?dl=0>

On 11/11/2018 6:49 PM, OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net wrote:
> Here is a short presentation on refinishing a fiberglass panel on my old DG and another fellow's PIK with faux carbon fiber.
>
> http://aviation.derosaweb.net/presentations/#carbonfiber
>
> - John OHM Ω

--
Dan, 5J

[Richard Pfiffner[_2_]]

On Monday, November 12, 2018 at 8:32:57 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Blasphemy!Â* That Ferrari should be red!
>
>
>
> While your results looked great, a hydro dip costs a lot less, adds
> less weight, and no sharp spikes in a crash.Â* The aluminum panel in
> my Stemme has a hydro dip aluminum look.
>
>
>
> THIS
> is what a carbon fiber dip looks like.
>
>
>
>
> On 11/11/2018 6:49 PM, OHM Ω
> http://aviation.derosaweb.net wrote:
>
>
>
> Here is a short presentation on refinishing a fiberglass panel on my old DG and another fellow's PIK with faux carbon fiber.
>
> http://aviation.derosaweb.net/presentations/#carbonfiber
>
> - John OHM Ω
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Dan, 5J

Here is another way to manufacture and finish an instrument panel.

http://www.craggyaero.com/Panel%20Mfg/Fiberglass%20panel%20instructions.pdf

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, November 11, 2018 at 6:26:39 PM UTC-5, Matt Herron Jr. wrote:
> On Sunday, November 11, 2018 at 12:57:56 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> > On Sunday, November 11, 2018 at 1:33:46 PM UTC-5, Matt Herron Jr. wrote:
> > > On Sunday, November 11, 2018 at 9:33:07 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, November 11, 2018 at 10:38:48 AM UTC-5, Matt Herron Jr. wrote:
> > > > > On Sunday, November 11, 2018 at 5:05:52 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> > > > > > > Best way to handle this issue is to model the panel and components in full 3D.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have drawn up a lot of my instruments in 3D for my mosquito panel. It would be good if someone hosted a database of 2D and 3D CAD files of all the instruments, panels etc so we didn't need to redraw. I have drawn up the flarm brick, antennae, and several standard instruments that I could share.
> > > > > > Chris
> > > > >
> > > > > I will post my 3D database (in .STEP format) to DropBox later today. (I can post in native Solidworks too if anyone is interested) I have a model for a Ventus C panel, and an ASW27b panel. For the 27b I designed in a horizontal plate to mount internal instruments like TT22 encoder, flarm, GPS and FLARM antennas, etc.
> > > > >
> > > > > Matt
> > > >
> > > > Please do post your native SW files too.
> > > > Thanks
> > > > Chris
> > >
> > > Here is the link to the dropbox where asw27b panel is stored: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/n1j67ov2a87ozkp/AABgNsVQWu5Q226Y3qmfA-kHa?dl=0
> > >
> > > Let me know if there are any issues. There is a jpeg in there to give you an idea of what you will find in the cad files. Also, you should see the Ventus C panel folder, and a folder that has a popular design I did for wingtip tie-downs on the Ventus. Take off the wingtips, slide in the tie down, flip the lever and you are secure...
> >
> > Thanks for posting that. BTW what version of Solidworks is it?
> > Also I could only see the step file and SW files for the 27, not sure if you also wanted to share out the ventus files then you'd need to add another link for those.
> > Chris
>
> Chris,
>
> It is a mixture of SW 2012 and SW 2018. I think the Ventus is all 2012.
Thanks Matt!