Contest Wait list

[[email protected]]

As a fairly new contest pilot but one that enjoys the entire sport.

It is interesting to me that Nephi OLC/XC Camp set for next June has a wait list and the Sr's is already has 39 pilots registered - yet Mifflin and Elmira have less then 10 total.

I have looked at the pilot survey and have chatted allot abut Soaring and the focus. Since I have experience in the Olympic movement, saw how it evolved and have no current/future desire to see it move further - I think Soaring as a sport could be at a cross roads.

Do we (all Soaring) put our effort/strategy into producing a World Champion or do we increase our population hoping that increase in numbers produces a World Champion. (or does a WC even matter?)

Just a thought as I entered my next years contests :)

WH

ps - I do not believe great Soaring geography is the key - I am on my 4th Sr's - the Soaring is not spectacular like UT :) - so I rule out geography IMHO

[Rich Owen[_2_]]

As the Co Contest Manager of the Seniors and a friend and fellow Director of the SSA with Burno Vassel, we are comparing apples with oranges. The Seniors is a social contest of very competitive pilots. We have had a third of our contest that have been national champions with one or two world champions. I have never flown at Nephi but I enjoy Bruno’s videos. He is growing the sport and trying his best to support all glider pilots. At Seminole-Lake Gliderport we are trying to do the same. For 28 years we have provided a competitive environment and an experience that many look forward to. Nephi does not use pilot ranking to exclude pilots in their event because it is not a race. The Seniors is a race that uses ranking to get the very best in the competition. We support different groups of soaring pilots to provide a very different experience. Do not forget the outstanding Sailplane Grand Prix run by Sean Fidler and his wife Tiffany that Seminole-Lake Gliderport has supported over the last two years. This is the North American qualifier for the World Sailplane Grand Prix and the only chance for a US pilot to fly under FAI rules. Throughout the US we have multiple contests/events put on by clubs and commercial operators to provide an environment for our pilots to safely explore the limits of their ability. Our pilot customers should jump for joy to have the choice to fly in varied formats that the organizers goal is for everyone to have a great time! Please fly in events that best fits your desires. Neph, Sailplane Grand Prix and the Seniors have been fully subscribed over the years so you can be assured these events are well run. Wether you want to be on the US Soaring Team and represent the US in a WGC event or fly the furthest in your soaring life, we can fulfill your desires. Please join Bruno, Sean & Tiffany Fidler, Virginia Thompson and I in celebrating the experience we call soaring! Hope to see you in the spring.

Rich Owen
ZO

[WB]

Yeah, but how’s the soaring in UT in March?

[Ron Gleason]

On Thursday, 22 November 2018 16:44:21 UTC-7, WB wrote:
> Yeah, but how’s the soaring in UT in March?

Can be good in Northern UT with wave and ridge in March. However UT is more consistent in mid-summer through early fall. Soaring is available year round in all of UT .

[John Foster]

On Wednesday, November 21, 2018 at 1:49:38 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> As a fairly new contest pilot but one that enjoys the entire sport.
>
> It is interesting to me that Nephi OLC/XC Camp set for next June has a wait list and the Sr's is already has 39 pilots registered - yet Mifflin and Elmira have less then 10 total.
>
> I have looked at the pilot survey and have chatted allot abut Soaring and the focus. Since I have experience in the Olympic movement, saw how it evolved and have no current/future desire to see it move further - I think Soaring as a sport could be at a cross roads.
>
> Do we (all Soaring) put our effort/strategy into producing a World Champion or do we increase our population hoping that increase in numbers produces a World Champion. (or does a WC even matter?)
>
> Just a thought as I entered my next years contests :)
>
> WH
>
> ps - I do not believe great Soaring geography is the key - I am on my 4th Sr's - the Soaring is not spectacular like UT :) - so I rule out geography IMHO

From the perspective of a new glider pilot, I think we should focus on our base. We need more people flying gliders. As the base grows, we will have more to draw from in the contest arena.

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Mon, 26 Nov 2018 08:59:28 -0800, John Foster wrote:

> On Wednesday, November 21, 2018 at 1:49:38 PM UTC-7,
> wrote:
>> As a fairly new contest pilot but one that enjoys the entire sport.
>>
>> It is interesting to me that Nephi OLC/XC Camp set for next June has a
>> wait list and the Sr's is already has 39 pilots registered - yet
>> Mifflin and Elmira have less then 10 total.
>>
>> I have looked at the pilot survey and have chatted allot abut Soaring
>> and the focus. Since I have experience in the Olympic movement, saw
>> how it evolved and have no current/future desire to see it move further
>> - I think Soaring as a sport could be at a cross roads.
>>
>> Do we (all Soaring) put our effort/strategy into producing a World
>> Champion or do we increase our population hoping that increase in
>> numbers produces a World Champion. (or does a WC even matter?)
>>
>> Just a thought as I entered my next years contests :)
>>
>> WH
>>
>> ps - I do not believe great Soaring geography is the key - I am on my
>> 4th Sr's - the Soaring is not spectacular like UT :) - so I rule out
>> geography IMHO
>
> From the perspective of a new glider pilot, I think we should focus on
> our base. We need more people flying gliders. As the base grows, we
> will have more to draw from in the contest arena.

XC flying and competition flying are probably two of the main reasons why
pilots don't vanish after learning to fly and getting bored with local
flying. That's one reason that UK clubs promote going for badges to a
newly soloed pilot: almost immediately converting them to a single seat
glider and starting to work toward getting their bronze and silver badges
with gold and diamonds a more distant goal.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[John Foster]

On Monday, November 26, 2018 at 10:24:09 AM UTC-7, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Mon, 26 Nov 2018 08:59:28 -0800, John Foster wrote:
>
> > On Wednesday, November 21, 2018 at 1:49:38 PM UTC-7,
> > wrote:
> >> As a fairly new contest pilot but one that enjoys the entire sport.
> >>
> >> It is interesting to me that Nephi OLC/XC Camp set for next June has a
> >> wait list and the Sr's is already has 39 pilots registered - yet
> >> Mifflin and Elmira have less then 10 total.
> >>
> >> I have looked at the pilot survey and have chatted allot abut Soaring
> >> and the focus. Since I have experience in the Olympic movement, saw
> >> how it evolved and have no current/future desire to see it move further
> >> - I think Soaring as a sport could be at a cross roads.
> >>
> >> Do we (all Soaring) put our effort/strategy into producing a World
> >> Champion or do we increase our population hoping that increase in
> >> numbers produces a World Champion. (or does a WC even matter?)
> >>
> >> Just a thought as I entered my next years contests :)
> >>
> >> WH
> >>
> >> ps - I do not believe great Soaring geography is the key - I am on my
> >> 4th Sr's - the Soaring is not spectacular like UT :) - so I rule out
> >> geography IMHO
> >
> > From the perspective of a new glider pilot, I think we should focus on
> > our base. We need more people flying gliders. As the base grows, we
> > will have more to draw from in the contest arena.
>
> XC flying and competition flying are probably two of the main reasons why
> pilots don't vanish after learning to fly and getting bored with local
> flying. That's one reason that UK clubs promote going for badges to a
> newly soloed pilot: almost immediately converting them to a single seat
> glider and starting to work toward getting their bronze and silver badges
> with gold and diamonds a more distant goal.
>
>
> --
> Martin | martin at
> Gregorie | gregorie dot org

I wish we had the support from our national organization in the US that you guys in Britain have for your clubs.

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Mon, 26 Nov 2018 20:55:49 -0800, John Foster wrote:

> On Monday, November 26, 2018 at 10:24:09 AM UTC-7, Martin Gregorie
> wrote:
>> XC flying and competition flying are probably two of the main reasons
>> why pilots don't vanish after learning to fly and getting bored with
>> local flying. That's one reason that UK clubs promote going for badges
>> to a newly soloed pilot: almost immediately converting them to a single
>> seat glider and starting to work toward getting their bronze and silver
>> badges with gold and diamonds a more distant goal.
>>
> I wish we had the support from our national organization in the US that
> you guys in Britain have for your clubs.
>
I agree that the BGA is an active and helpful organisation , but the
push for new solos getting to at least Silver badge level is done at club
level.

its main contribution here is probably to publish 'Laws and Rules for
glider pilots', an A5-sized booklet of just under 70 pages. Its well
written, logically organised and covers pretty much all the legalities of
flying gliders in the UK.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[Frank Whiteley]

On Tuesday, November 27, 2018 at 5:10:50 AM UTC-7, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Mon, 26 Nov 2018 20:55:49 -0800, John Foster wrote:
>
> > On Monday, November 26, 2018 at 10:24:09 AM UTC-7, Martin Gregorie
> > wrote:
> >> XC flying and competition flying are probably two of the main reasons
> >> why pilots don't vanish after learning to fly and getting bored with
> >> local flying. That's one reason that UK clubs promote going for badges
> >> to a newly soloed pilot: almost immediately converting them to a single
> >> seat glider and starting to work toward getting their bronze and silver
> >> badges with gold and diamonds a more distant goal.
> >>
> > I wish we had the support from our national organization in the US that
> > you guys in Britain have for your clubs.
> >
> I agree that the BGA is an active and helpful organisation , but the
> push for new solos getting to at least Silver badge level is done at club
> level.
>
> its main contribution here is probably to publish 'Laws and Rules for
> glider pilots', an A5-sized booklet of just under 70 pages. Its well
> written, logically organised and covers pretty much all the legalities of
> flying gliders in the UK.
>
>
> --
> Martin | martin at
> Gregorie | gregorie dot org

I think it was 20 pages when I got my Bronze in 1978.

I believe an FAI Silver is still required to attend any instructor course in the UK though the instructor types have broadened a bit since I was last there.

Until the DC-10 Paris accident and the Tenerife collision, an FAI Silver Badge was worth a 50UKP discount on insurance per pilot. A four pilot syndicate could save 200UKP annually. The cost of those accidents was enough to pull the glider owners/operators into the big pool.

Frank Whiteley

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, November 27, 2018 at 7:10:50 AM UTC-5, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Mon, 26 Nov 2018 20:55:49 -0800, John Foster wrote:
>
> > On Monday, November 26, 2018 at 10:24:09 AM UTC-7, Martin Gregorie
> > wrote:
> >> XC flying and competition flying are probably two of the main reasons
> >> why pilots don't vanish after learning to fly and getting bored with
> >> local flying. That's one reason that UK clubs promote going for badges
> >> to a newly soloed pilot: almost immediately converting them to a single
> >> seat glider and starting to work toward getting their bronze and silver
> >> badges with gold and diamonds a more distant goal.
> >>
> > I wish we had the support from our national organization in the US that
> > you guys in Britain have for your clubs.
> >
> I agree that the BGA is an active and helpful organisation , but the
> push for new solos getting to at least Silver badge level is done at club
> level.
>
> its main contribution here is probably to publish 'Laws and Rules for
> glider pilots', an A5-sized booklet of just under 70 pages. Its well
> written, logically organised and covers pretty much all the legalities of
> flying gliders in the UK.
>
>
> --
> Martin | martin at
> Gregorie | gregorie dot org

I think this is 100% true - to get more pilots flying "locals are required" and we have lots going on. It is all appreciated.

The questions are:
"Is growing numbers of XC glider pilots the mission both Local and SSA?"
"What do Locals need?"
"What success stories do we have and can they be duplicated?"
"is there any ideas than can help the Mission?"

Success Story - in our area the Albatross club ran two well attended seminar in the winter. This year they are repeating it. 50 - to 60 active XC pilots.

I started this thread because I saw so few people signed up at really nice contests and my mentor when asked about his success in Soaring always Replies "You have to show up"

While I am an extremely competitive person and would be so Happy if the US had a WC victory - I believe to first priority is get more people to show up :)

WH

[Ron Gleason]

On Wednesday, 21 November 2018 13:49:38 UTC-7, wrote:
> As a fairly new contest pilot but one that enjoys the entire sport.
>
> It is interesting to me that Nephi OLC/XC Camp set for next June has a wait list and the Sr's is already has 39 pilots registered - yet Mifflin and Elmira have less then 10 total.
>
> I have looked at the pilot survey and have chatted allot abut Soaring and the focus. Since I have experience in the Olympic movement, saw how it evolved and have no current/future desire to see it move further - I think Soaring as a sport could be at a cross roads.
>
> Do we (all Soaring) put our effort/strategy into producing a World Champion or do we increase our population hoping that increase in numbers produces a World Champion. (or does a WC even matter?)
>
> Just a thought as I entered my next years contests :)
>
> WH
>
> ps - I do not believe great Soaring geography is the key - I am on my 4th Sr's - the Soaring is not spectacular like UT :) - so I rule out geography IMHO

Comparing apples and oranges when looking at signups. The Nephi OLC events are a first signup, first served event *so* early signup is required to reserve a slot. The other SSA sanctioned meets follow this rule, from the 2018 SSA rulebook,

5.3.3 The Preferential Entry Deadline is 60 days prior to the first scheduled competition day.

So there is no incentive to signup early. Makes it tougher for organizers when it comes to resource planning especially tow planes.

IMHO very few competition pilots in the US have their focus on qualifying for and participating in World CHampionships.

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, November 28, 2018 at 1:23:40 PM UTC-5, Ron Gleason wrote:
> On Wednesday, 21 November 2018 13:49:38 UTC-7, wrote:
> > As a fairly new contest pilot but one that enjoys the entire sport.
> >
> > It is interesting to me that Nephi OLC/XC Camp set for next June has a wait list and the Sr's is already has 39 pilots registered - yet Mifflin and Elmira have less then 10 total.
> >
> > I have looked at the pilot survey and have chatted allot abut Soaring and the focus. Since I have experience in the Olympic movement, saw how it evolved and have no current/future desire to see it move further - I think Soaring as a sport could be at a cross roads.
> >
> > Do we (all Soaring) put our effort/strategy into producing a World Champion or do we increase our population hoping that increase in numbers produces a World Champion. (or does a WC even matter?)
> >
> > Just a thought as I entered my next years contests :)
> >
> > WH
> >
> > ps - I do not believe great Soaring geography is the key - I am on my 4th Sr's - the Soaring is not spectacular like UT :) - so I rule out geography IMHO
>
> Comparing apples and oranges when looking at signups. The Nephi OLC events are a first signup, first served event *so* early signup is required to reserve a slot. The other SSA sanctioned meets follow this rule, from the 2018 SSA rulebook,
>
> 5.3.3 The Preferential Entry Deadline is 60 days prior to the first scheduled competition day.
>
> So there is no incentive to signup early. Makes it tougher for organizers when it comes to resource planning especially tow planes.
>
> IMHO very few competition pilots in the US have their focus on qualifying for and participating in World Championships.

My take away is different - UT is 8 months away - I think they sell out because it is a great place at the right time with a popular format, run well and Bruno does a fantastic job promoting it -

Seminole FL - is 5 months away - will be sold out by Christmas - also well organized, warm and promoted well for years. Right time / right audience.

In my opinion most working people will have their vacations pretty firm by Jan 1

So how do we get them to commit - so organizers can be successful

How do we get new XC ideas so people get more propensities to join the bigger Soaring community while they are employed or have non Soaring families.

WH

[Dan Marotta]

A soaring safari would be a great format.Â* I did it a three times back
in the 90s but lately it's impossible to get anyone to commit to a week
of pure fun, landing at a different airport each day.Â* I got the
inspiration from reading about border to border flights in Soaring
Magazine a long time ago.Â* Next year's Stemme gathering will possibly be
of the format and I'll be among the first to sign up. It's a hell of a ride!

On 11/28/2018 12:00 PM, wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 28, 2018 at 1:23:40 PM UTC-5, Ron Gleason wrote:
>> On Wednesday, 21 November 2018 13:49:38 UTC-7, wrote:
>>> As a fairly new contest pilot but one that enjoys the entire sport.
>>>
>>> It is interesting to me that Nephi OLC/XC Camp set for next June has a wait list and the Sr's is already has 39 pilots registered - yet Mifflin and Elmira have less then 10 total.
>>>
>>> I have looked at the pilot survey and have chatted allot abut Soaring and the focus. Since I have experience in the Olympic movement, saw how it evolved and have no current/future desire to see it move further - I think Soaring as a sport could be at a cross roads.
>>>
>>> Do we (all Soaring) put our effort/strategy into producing a World Champion or do we increase our population hoping that increase in numbers produces a World Champion. (or does a WC even matter?)
>>>
>>> Just a thought as I entered my next years contests :)
>>>
>>> WH
>>>
>>> ps - I do not believe great Soaring geography is the key - I am on my 4th Sr's - the Soaring is not spectacular like UT :) - so I rule out geography IMHO
>> Comparing apples and oranges when looking at signups. The Nephi OLC events are a first signup, first served event *so* early signup is required to reserve a slot. The other SSA sanctioned meets follow this rule, from the 2018 SSA rulebook,
>>
>> 5.3.3 The Preferential Entry Deadline is 60 days prior to the first scheduled competition day.
>>
>> So there is no incentive to signup early. Makes it tougher for organizers when it comes to resource planning especially tow planes.
>>
>> IMHO very few competition pilots in the US have their focus on qualifying for and participating in World Championships.
> My take away is different - UT is 8 months away - I think they sell out because it is a great place at the right time with a popular format, run well and Bruno does a fantastic job promoting it -
>
> Seminole FL - is 5 months away - will be sold out by Christmas - also well organized, warm and promoted well for years. Right time / right audience.
>
> In my opinion most working people will have their vacations pretty firm by Jan 1
>
> So how do we get them to commit - so organizers can be successful
>
> How do we get new XC ideas so people get more propensities to join the bigger Soaring community while they are employed or have non Soaring families.
>
> WH

--
Dan, 5J

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, November 28, 2018 at 2:19:14 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
> A soaring safari would be a great format.Â* I did it a three times back
> in the 90s but lately it's impossible to get anyone to commit to a week
> of pure fun, landing at a different airport each day.Â* I got the
> inspiration from reading about border to border flights in Soaring
> Magazine a long time ago.Â* Next year's Stemme gathering will possibly be
> of the format and I'll be among the first to sign up. It's a hell of a ride!
>
> On 11/28/2018 12:00 PM, wrote:
> > On Wednesday, November 28, 2018 at 1:23:40 PM UTC-5, Ron Gleason wrote:
> >> On Wednesday, 21 November 2018 13:49:38 UTC-7, wrote:
> >>> As a fairly new contest pilot but one that enjoys the entire sport.
> >>>
> >>> It is interesting to me that Nephi OLC/XC Camp set for next June has a wait list and the Sr's is already has 39 pilots registered - yet Mifflin and Elmira have less then 10 total.
> >>>
> >>> I have looked at the pilot survey and have chatted allot abut Soaring and the focus. Since I have experience in the Olympic movement, saw how it evolved and have no current/future desire to see it move further - I think Soaring as a sport could be at a cross roads.
> >>>
> >>> Do we (all Soaring) put our effort/strategy into producing a World Champion or do we increase our population hoping that increase in numbers produces a World Champion. (or does a WC even matter?)
> >>>
> >>> Just a thought as I entered my next years contests :)
> >>>
> >>> WH
> >>>
> >>> ps - I do not believe great Soaring geography is the key - I am on my 4th Sr's - the Soaring is not spectacular like UT :) - so I rule out geography IMHO
> >> Comparing apples and oranges when looking at signups. The Nephi OLC events are a first signup, first served event *so* early signup is required to reserve a slot. The other SSA sanctioned meets follow this rule, from the 2018 SSA rulebook,
> >>
> >> 5.3.3 The Preferential Entry Deadline is 60 days prior to the first scheduled competition day.
> >>
> >> So there is no incentive to signup early. Makes it tougher for organizers when it comes to resource planning especially tow planes.
> >>
> >> IMHO very few competition pilots in the US have their focus on qualifying for and participating in World Championships.
> > My take away is different - UT is 8 months away - I think they sell out because it is a great place at the right time with a popular format, run well and Bruno does a fantastic job promoting it -
> >
> > Seminole FL - is 5 months away - will be sold out by Christmas - also well organized, warm and promoted well for years. Right time / right audience.
> >
> > In my opinion most working people will have their vacations pretty firm by Jan 1
> >
> > So how do we get them to commit - so organizers can be successful
> >
> > How do we get new XC ideas so people get more propensities to join the bigger Soaring community while they are employed or have non Soaring families.
> >
> > WH
>
> --
> Dan, 5J

Wow that's interesting - can yo send me how that one was organized - to my email address.

I think we need to look at all the soaring groups and see how to best get them flying.

We do pretty well getting older retired guys to fly :) (I am close)
but what about:
High school kids
College kids
young workers with and without families
Adults with grown kids who maybe flew when they were younger (Me)
.....................

each has it's own dynamic to get them to fly - and a different dynamic to keep them flying.

Bottom line - we need more people flying - how do we get them to show up. I am pretty sure there is not one right answer - we need lots of answers and attempts.

WH

[BobW]

On 11/28/2018 1:13 PM, wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 28, 2018 at 2:19:14 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> A soaring safari would be a great format.Â* I did it a three times back
>> in the 90s but lately it's impossible to get anyone to commit to a week
>> of pure fun, landing at a different airport each day.Â* I got the
>> inspiration from reading about border to border flights in Soaring
>> Magazine a long time ago.Â* Next year's Stemme gathering will possibly be
>> of the format and I'll be among the first to sign up. It's a hell of a ride!
>>
>>On 11/28/2018 12:00 PM, wrote:

<Snip...>

> Wow that's interesting - can you send me how that one was organized - to my email address.
>
> I think we need to look at all the soaring groups and see how to best get them flying.
>
> We do pretty well getting older retired guys to fly :) (I am close)
> but what about:
> High school kids
> College kids
> young workers with and without families
> Adults with grown kids who maybe flew when they were younger (Me)
> ....................
>
> each has it's own dynamic to get them to fly - and a different dynamic to keep them flying.
>
> Bottom line - we need more people flying - how do we get them to show up. I am pretty sure there is not one right answer - we need lots of answers and attempts.
>
> WH

Just finished several hours of hanging outdoor Christmas ornaments (Ah,
retirement!), winter's approaching, and for some reason my philosophical gene
feels the need...

"Right you are!" regarding no single "correct answer," and needing "lotsa
answers/attempts."

Based on a sample of one (i.e. me) over 40+ years, in pilot-participation
terms SSA-sanctioned contests never were a personal draw. And not until ~2013
did I even attend one (as Joe Crew). Nonetheless, along the years I eagerly
looked forward to, and avidly read, "Soaring" mag's, major contest
writeups...and - especially earlier in my burgeoning XC "career" - actively
strove to "be as good as those contest guys," as measured by my assessment of
growing personal XC skills. Almost from before obtaining my gruberment-issued
PP(G) ticket, I was mentally hooked on XC. By the time several summers'-worth
of experience were beneath my belt, "camps" had thoroughly sucked me in.
(Different places! Nothing to do but go soaring! Woo hoo!!!)

Eventually, I learned something about my soaring self that had zero/zip/nada
to do with soaring, namely, I liked to soar one heckuva lot more than I did
driving to *where* to soar. To be clear, I *love* Road Trips, but I do NOT
love glider-towing-road-trips *when* the primary reason is for me to go
soaring. My "druther limit" pretty much became about one comfortable day's
worth of driving...say 8 hours or so.

I also eventually concluded I loved challenging myself against a day's weather
*much* more than I did the thought of letting someone else pick my course and
- by arguable extension - my time aloft. "Different strokes for different
folks," definitely applied to my way of thinking. And for two decades, each
year's Major Vacation was a week-long soaring camp; some years I was lucky
enough to enjoy multiple weeks'-worth of soaring camps.

My "primary camp" ran from ~1984-2009 (at Dalhart, TX). It began when a small
group of Dalhartians thought to put on a camp they hoped more experienced
pilots than them would attend, so they could suck out their XC knowledge
through straws stuck in their ears; the Dalhartians wanted to learn how to
actually do O&R's in their 2-33 and 1-26s, as distinct from vulgar downwind
dashes. They succeeded beyond - so I imagine - their wildest hopes, even
though they also burned themselves out in the organizational sense within 4
years. By that time a sparkplug person in "my home club" decided to make the
next year's camp a Soaring Society of Boulder-sponsored camp, camps being
things long enshrined in SSB's Bylaws. And so it remained for ~2 decades,
though with differing (and sometimes circularly-repeating) sparkplugs,
sometimes with two tugs, more commonly with one, glider participation numbers
ranging from >17 to 6, pilot skill levels from tyro to
World-Championship-participating. Many an SSB pilot made their initial
off-field landing at the camp (sometimes in 2-seaters!), most of whom haven't
yet aged out continuing to fly XC.

That particular camp eventually lapsed due to (IMO) changing demographics in
conjunction with human nature, human nature being the more powerful
contributor, IMO. In SSB's part of the world, "the mountains" exert a powerful
draw upon Joe Average Glider Pilot XC Wannabe's imagination and personal
dreams. I was no different in the immediate time-shadow of my licensing. Yet
despite having (successfully...as in never having landed out in the mountains
at anything other than an airport) learned mountain-flying XC "self-taught" -
and had a Great Time so doing! - it quite quickly became clear to me that
safely learning XC above more benign OFL territory was likely quicker, and
less mentally stressful, than doing so in the Rocky Mountains. And yet...

....over the years, the Most Difficult hurdle to reconvening the Dalhart Camp
every summer as a Club event, wasn't recruiting a tuggy/tuggies, but was
annually convincing one or more Joe XC newbies to commit to the camp "for
their own XC-good/future-development." "Everyone" of that level "just
naturally wanted" to go fly a *mountain* camp, even though their XC skills
largely grew about as slowly there as a pinon pine (i.e. slowly), as to the
lombardy-poplar-like (i.e. rapid) growth Dalhart encouraged.

I suspect all the above, in conceptual terms, is already well known to most
XC-experienced soaring pilots, so why did I bother to go on at such length?
Simply because Entirely Independent of *where* any soaring event is held, are
some (perhaps less obvious to Joe XC newbie? Or even some of the sport's more
experienced XC types, whose "often congenital" independence might help obscure
the following verities) Absolutely Critical Realities:

In no particular order...
- nothing happens without a sparkplug (ideally, several);
- More (of any sort of XC-encouraging) activity/camps is better;
- choice is good;
- all XC is good - contests (formal/informal)/camps (of any sort)/seminars/etc.
- likely the largest single hurdle is Joe Wannnabe XC-Pilot's personal
commitment to "invest in him/herself," to "just do it," by which I mean
routinely biasing their personal daily-life decisions in favor of soaring
rather than "something else" whenever such ponderations come actively to mind.

If it ain't sufficiently personally rewarding, Joe Pilot ain't gonna do it. (Duh.)

YMMV,
Bob W.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
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[Dan Marotta]

PM sent.

On 11/28/2018 1:13 PM, wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 28, 2018 at 2:19:14 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> A soaring safari would be a great format.Â* I did it a three times back
>> in the 90s but lately it's impossible to get anyone to commit to a week
>> of pure fun, landing at a different airport each day.Â* I got the
>> inspiration from reading about border to border flights in Soaring
>> Magazine a long time ago.Â* Next year's Stemme gathering will possibly be
>> of the format and I'll be among the first to sign up. It's a hell of a ride!
>>
>> On 11/28/2018 12:00 PM, wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, November 28, 2018 at 1:23:40 PM UTC-5, Ron Gleason wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, 21 November 2018 13:49:38 UTC-7, wrote:
>>>>> As a fairly new contest pilot but one that enjoys the entire sport.
>>>>>
>>>>> It is interesting to me that Nephi OLC/XC Camp set for next June has a wait list and the Sr's is already has 39 pilots registered - yet Mifflin and Elmira have less then 10 total.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have looked at the pilot survey and have chatted allot abut Soaring and the focus. Since I have experience in the Olympic movement, saw how it evolved and have no current/future desire to see it move further - I think Soaring as a sport could be at a cross roads.
>>>>>
>>>>> Do we (all Soaring) put our effort/strategy into producing a World Champion or do we increase our population hoping that increase in numbers produces a World Champion. (or does a WC even matter?)
>>>>>
>>>>> Just a thought as I entered my next years contests :)
>>>>>
>>>>> WH
>>>>>
>>>>> ps - I do not believe great Soaring geography is the key - I am on my 4th Sr's - the Soaring is not spectacular like UT :) - so I rule out geography IMHO
>>>> Comparing apples and oranges when looking at signups. The Nephi OLC events are a first signup, first served event *so* early signup is required to reserve a slot. The other SSA sanctioned meets follow this rule, from the 2018 SSA rulebook,
>>>>
>>>> 5.3.3 The Preferential Entry Deadline is 60 days prior to the first scheduled competition day.
>>>>
>>>> So there is no incentive to signup early. Makes it tougher for organizers when it comes to resource planning especially tow planes.
>>>>
>>>> IMHO very few competition pilots in the US have their focus on qualifying for and participating in World Championships.
>>> My take away is different - UT is 8 months away - I think they sell out because it is a great place at the right time with a popular format, run well and Bruno does a fantastic job promoting it -
>>>
>>> Seminole FL - is 5 months away - will be sold out by Christmas - also well organized, warm and promoted well for years. Right time / right audience.
>>>
>>> In my opinion most working people will have their vacations pretty firm by Jan 1
>>>
>>> So how do we get them to commit - so organizers can be successful
>>>
>>> How do we get new XC ideas so people get more propensities to join the bigger Soaring community while they are employed or have non Soaring families.
>>>
>>> WH
>> --
>> Dan, 5J
> Wow that's interesting - can yo send me how that one was organized - to my email address.
>
> I think we need to look at all the soaring groups and see how to best get them flying.
>
> We do pretty well getting older retired guys to fly :) (I am close)
> but what about:
> High school kids
> College kids
> young workers with and without families
> Adults with grown kids who maybe flew when they were younger (Me)
> ....................
>
> each has it's own dynamic to get them to fly - and a different dynamic to keep them flying.
>
> Bottom line - we need more people flying - how do we get them to show up. I am pretty sure there is not one right answer - we need lots of answers and attempts.
>
> WH
>
>

--
Dan, 5J

[John Foster]

> Wow that's interesting - can yo send me how that one was organized - to my email address.
>
> I think we need to look at all the soaring groups and see how to best get them flying.
>
> We do pretty well getting older retired guys to fly :) (I am close)
> but what about:
> High school kids
> College kids
> young workers with and without families
> Adults with grown kids who maybe flew when they were younger (Me)
> ....................
>
> each has it's own dynamic to get them to fly - and a different dynamic to keep them flying.
>
> Bottom line - we need more people flying - how do we get them to show up. I am pretty sure there is not one right answer - we need lots of answers and attempts.
>
> WH

This is what I've been wrestling with. I'm a new glider pilot, living in an area where almost no-one flies gliders (one other guy about 12 miles away). I live in the middle of an Indian Reservation in MT, with two "major" cities (populations about 73,000 and 23,000) over an hour's drive away. The local area holds tremendous ridge soaring potential, I think. However, there is a lot of poverty around here, and sparse population. How does one get people involved locally?

Ideas I've tossed around, but haven't implemented yet, include advertising at the local FBOs (there are 3 airports within a 20 mile radius), advertising with flyers in the FBOs of the airports at the two "major" cities, contacting local news media to do a "local interest segment", working out some sort of partnership/arrangement with the local Boys & Girls club, which is pretty active, possibly getting some celebrities who live locally to participate or get involved in some way or another.

My hope is that we can operate a club in a way that makes flying sailplanes "affordable" and doable for most people of moderate means. There is a stigma in the general population that flying is expensive. And for the most part, they are right. But I believe, that if it is done right, we could do something sustainable here locally, in a way that won't cost an arm and a leg. We need to get young people back into flying again, and it is my hope that flying gliders could be a way of doing this. We just have to get something "off the ground", in order to get some momentum. And that takes a bit of money.

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Wed, 28 Nov 2018 21:01:51 -0800, John Foster wrote:

> My hope is that we can operate a club in a way that makes flying
> sailplanes "affordable" and doable for most people of moderate means.
>
Is there anywhere you could operate a winch? IME, which may be different
from yours since I fly with a UK club with its own airfield, a winch
launch costs around a third of an aero tow. The club owns both winches
and Robin GR300 tugs and thats the price differential between a winch
launch and a 2000 ft aero tow - and the winching operation usually
subsidises aero towing. On our winch 1200-1400 ft is the norm, but with
stronger wind and a decent velocity gradient I've hit 2700ft.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[AS]

> Is there anywhere you could operate a winch? IME, which may be different
> from yours since I fly with a UK club with its own airfield, a winch
> launch costs around a third of an aero tow. The club owns both winches
> and Robin GR300 tugs and thats the price differential between a winch
> launch and a 2000 ft aero tow - and the winching operation usually
> subsidises aero towing. On our winch 1200-1400 ft is the norm, but with
> stronger wind and a decent velocity gradient I've hit 2700ft.
>
>
> --
> Martin | martin at
> Gregorie | gregorie dot org


Thanks, Martin - you beat me to the clock with that reply!
IMHO, a winch and a winchable two-seat glider have been the catalyst for clubs around the world in the past. Much lower initial cost and much lower operating cost.
John F.: send me a PM and we can discuss how to pull off the winch part (pun intended!)
Uli
'AS'

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Thu, 29 Nov 2018 05:58:14 -0800, AS wrote:

> IMHO, a winch and a winchable two-seat glider have been the catalyst for
> clubs around the world in the past. Much lower initial cost and much
> lower operating cost.
>
Speaking of which, when I was in Szentes (SE Hungary, 40km north of
Szeged, I found a very small glider club operating off a grass strip.
They had a single drum winch on the back of a truck chassis, which I
didn't get a close look at, a beat-up old car for cable retrieval, a
Rubik R-26 Gobe two-seat glider and a Scheibe SF-25 touring motor glider.

That Gobe is the first I've seen, though its in the Martin Simon's
"Sailplanes 1920-2000" set of three books. Its an all-metal shoulder wing
glider with fabric on the wings behind the main spar, fabric-covered
control surfaces and fuselage sides. It is similar in age and performance
to an SGS 2-33 though its ergonomics, especially for the instructor, look
better. The instructor sits between the slightly swept-forward wing
leading edges. He sits a lot higher than the student so he has a good
view of both the only control panel, down over the student's shoulders,
and straight out above the his head.

I was offered a flight but didn't get one because the weather wasn't
cooperating when I could have flown.

But, to avoid going entirely off thread, I imagine their operating costs
as a club would be minimal.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[[email protected]]

Find a 2-22 and auto tow it. Winches are better but big powerful cars are cheap in America.

[Dave Springford]

On Thursday, 29 November 2018 00:01:53 UTC-5, John Foster wrote:
> How does one get people involved locally?
>

Have you thought about trying to use a meetup event? https://www.meetup.com/

If you can create a meetup event, say once a month over the winter, in the larger cities perhaps there are enough interested people that would attend and that can help get the ball rolling.

Since this "new" internet thing has sucked people out of real life - we have to use it's power to pull them back out.

[[email protected]]

The OP’s question about what it would take to develop our next American World Gliding Champion is interesting and thought provoking.

We have had three Glider Pilots win a total of four World Gliding Championships in the past fifty (50) years and a total of four Americans winning five titles in the history of the sport.

I don’t believe that our lifestyle is conducive to the challenge at hand. Most American families can’t afford to participate in Gliding activities, let alone devote their entire summer vacation (which many struggle to afford in the first place) to a Gliding Contest.

Two of our five World Championships belong to George Moffatt, who had the advantage of being a School Teacher for a living. That gave him his summer months off of work. Additionally, his Wife was also a glider Pilot so he had complete support for his soaring activities on the home front. How many guys are out there with the same type of favorable circumstances?

Dick Schraeder came close to winning a World Championship, finishing third. He had his own business and machine shop on his own private airport with equipment which permitted him to construct his own gliders. His family did spend their summer vacations traveling to contests with him via motorhome. How many other wives and kids are going to sign up for that in this era?

Wally Scott was another great glider Pilot who finished in the top ten twice during the World Gliding Championships. His family owned and operated a movie theater or theaters at night, which permitted him to go Soaring during the day.

A.J. Smith and Doug Jacobs won the other two championships in the past fifty years. Paul MacCready won in 1956. I am really unfamiliar with their circumstances so I won’t comment on them. The point is that the majority of glider pilots that won or came close to winning a World Championship benefitted from unique circumstances which permitted them to devote the time necessary to succeed internationally. The average, vast majority of Americans do not have these types of advantages to work with or the availability of time and resources needed to succeed.

On the women’s side, Sarah Arnold has finished in the top three on two occasions in the Women’s World Gliding Championship. Here again, she has the unique advantage of owning her own commercial glider operation. Do you think she has time to practice?

My impression is that most of the folks that can afford competitive equipment today and have the time and resources to Soar on a regular basis are retired individuals with little desire to pursue a World title or are past their prime to compete at the highest levels of competition. There has to be someone zealously devoted to that goal with the necessary resources and favorable circumstances to even have a chance for a World Championship.

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, November 29, 2018 at 10:57:59 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> The OP’s question about what it would take to develop our next American World Gliding Champion is interesting and thought provoking.
>
> We have had three Glider Pilots win a total of four World Gliding Championships in the past fifty (50) years and a total of four Americans winning five titles in the history of the sport.
>
> I don’t believe that our lifestyle is conducive to the challenge at hand. Most American families can’t afford to participate in Gliding activities, let alone devote their entire summer vacation (which many struggle to afford in the first place) to a Gliding Contest.
>
> Two of our five World Championships belong to George Moffatt, who had the advantage of being a School Teacher for a living. That gave him his summer months off of work. Additionally, his Wife was also a glider Pilot so he had complete support for his soaring activities on the home front. How many guys are out there with the same type of favorable circumstances?
>
> Dick Schraeder came close to winning a World Championship, finishing third. He had his own business and machine shop on his own private airport with equipment which permitted him to construct his own gliders. His family did spend their summer vacations traveling to contests with him via motorhome. How many other wives and kids are going to sign up for that in this era?
>
> Wally Scott was another great glider Pilot who finished in the top ten twice during the World Gliding Championships. His family owned and operated a movie theater or theaters at night, which permitted him to go Soaring during the day.
>
> A.J. Smith and Doug Jacobs won the other two championships in the past fifty years. Paul MacCready won in 1956. I am really unfamiliar with their circumstances so I won’t comment on them. The point is that the majority of glider pilots that won or came close to winning a World Championship benefitted from unique circumstances which permitted them to devote the time necessary to succeed internationally. The average, vast majority of Americans do not have these types of advantages to work with or the availability of time and resources needed to succeed.
>
> On the women’s side, Sarah Arnold has finished in the top three on two occasions in the Women’s World Gliding Championship. Here again, she has the unique advantage of owning her own commercial glider operation. Do you think she has time to practice?
>
> My impression is that most of the folks that can afford competitive equipment today and have the time and resources to Soar on a regular basis are retired individuals with little desire to pursue a World title or are past their prime to compete at the highest levels of competition. There has to be someone zealously devoted to that goal with the necessary resources and favorable circumstances to even have a chance for a World Championship.

Time or money pick one. If we really want a US world champion getting together and sponsoring a talented Jr or just aged out of jrs is the way to go. They have the talent and potentially time if they haven't gotten married or careered yet. Someone just needs to loan them a new racing machine. If soaring was a pro sport(I'm glad it's not) most of the people now racing would be coaches. The racing would be done by younger pilots. If a country wants to win that's how to do it. Champion pro sailors don't own the boats, Champion pro drivers don't own the cars.

[Steve Koerner]

Um, let's not be so quick to write off those retired guys with time and money at hand.

Pro sailing and pro driving are different. Sailboat racing takes a lot of the same sort of thinking machinery that soaring requires but sailing also takes a high level of strength and endurance. The strength and endurance part does favor the younger player in sailing; yet strength and endurance are quite minor factors in soaring. In auto racing, fast reflexes are key; younger is certainly better for that. Soaring doesn't require super fast reactions.

I think soaring greatness is achievable by young ones and old ones alike. History has proven that to be the case. What seems to matter is a learnable set of somewhat mechanical skills combined with experienced soaring smarts involving the ability to accurately weigh the importance of multiple factors simultaneously.

Sufficiently motivated old guys can do all that. I suggest it wiser to find ways to motivate those old guys with new ships on the way to practice their collective asses off rather than write them off as unfit for the job. In glider racing, motivation and willingness to work hard is a lot more important than youthfulness per se.

Steve



> Time or money pick one. If we really want a US world champion getting together and sponsoring a talented Jr or just aged out of jrs is the way to go. They have the talent and potentially time if they haven't gotten married or careered yet. Someone just needs to loan them a new racing machine. If soaring was a pro sport(I'm glad it's not) most of the people now racing would be coaches. The racing would be done by younger pilots. If a country wants to win that's how to do it. Champion pro sailors don't own the boats, Champion pro drivers don't own the cars.

[[email protected]]

I once looked at the makeup of foreign teams at the WGC. Several European teams had one young pilot in his late 30's or 40's and one older experienced pilot in their late 50's or early 60's competing in each class. In other words, the older pilot was the experienced mentor who had attempted a previous worlds and the younger pilot (who in some cases had won a Junior worlds I believe) had no previous experience competing at (adult) WGC. While I agree that age isn't as important, I would respectfully ask some of our more experienced competition pilots at what age they felt they were at their best and had the most fire in them (sometimes read courage to take certain risks) to win. Fwiw, I'm not necessarily asking when they knew the most or felt they had the most overall experience. In any case, I venture to say the answer is that it was somewhere in their 40's or early 50's, with 10-12 years of competitive gliding experience (or world record attempts) under their belts. I invite former and current team members to provide us their perspective on this. This subject has always fascinated me.

- Chris Schrader

[[email protected]]

If Larry Ellison and friends decided they wanted to win world gliding championships who would they put in their gliders? 40 year olds tops. Sure there'd be old guys as coaches. Glider racers have coaches, fitness trainers and nutritionists right? How old were Jacobs, Moffatt, and Smith when they won? How old is Kawa? If the US wants a world champion the old guys need to give up their seats and support fast young pilots. I don't care if they choose not to, and certainly not saying they should. Just pointing out what it would take to win.