Pilot certificate required?

[Jim[_33_]]

I have read many FARs that describe the requirements for obtaining a pilot certificate but I have not found an FAR that states a pilot certificate is required in order to fly an aircraft - without passengers and not for compensation or hire. 14 CFR 61.3 details the requirements for a "required pilot flight crewmember" but I do not see that it states a person may not fly an aircraft unless that person has a pilot certificate.

What am I missing?

[Jim[_33_]]

On Saturday, November 24, 2018 at 8:03:43 AM UTC-8, Jim wrote:
> I have read many FARs that describe the requirements for obtaining a pilot certificate but I have not found an FAR that states a pilot certificate is required in order to fly an aircraft - without passengers and not for compensation or hire. 14 CFR 61.3 details the requirements for a "required pilot flight crewmember" but I do not see that it states a person may not fly an aircraft unless that person has a pilot certificate.
>
> What am I missing?

Maybe 14 CFR 61.56 Flight Review covers this. It states that no person may act as pilot-in-command of an aircraft unless that person has fulfilled the flight review requirements. Since a person flying an aircraft alone (solo) is the pilot-in-command during that flight maybe the flight review requirement, in what seems to me to be a rather indirect fashion, defines such a flight as against the rules. I really don't know. I think it would be useful to have a clear (?) statement that a pilot certificate is required for a person to fly an aircraft.

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Saturday, November 24, 2018 at 8:03:43 AM UTC-8, Jim wrote:
> I have read many FARs that describe the requirements for obtaining a pilot certificate but I have not found an FAR that states a pilot certificate is required in order to fly an aircraft - without passengers and not for compensation or hire. 14 CFR 61.3 details the requirements for a "required pilot flight crewmember" but I do not see that it states a person may not fly an aircraft unless that person has a pilot certificate.
>
> What am I missing?

I once heard a story about a guy getting ramp checked as he got out of his aircraft. The aircraft had the proper docs, but they asked for his license he said, "don't have one". And that was it, not licensed not subjected to the licensing requirements. I never paid attention to the story as I am properly trained and licensed

[Paul Agnew]

https://www.oig.dot.gov/search?search_api_views_fulltext=without+certifica te

Good luck with that.

PA

[Sierra Whiskey]

14 CFR 61.3 (copied 24NOV2018)

61.3 Requirement for certificates, ratings, and authorizations.

(a)Required pilot certificate for operating a civil aircraft of the United States. No person may serve as a required pilot flight crewmember of a civil aircraft of the United States, unless that person:

(1) Has in the person's physical possession or readily accessible in the aircraft when exercising the privileges of that pilot certificate or authorization -

(i) A pilot certificate issued under this part and in accordance with § 61.19;

[Sierra Whiskey]

14 CFR (24NOV2018)

§ 91.3 Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.
(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.

§ 1.1 General Definitions
Pilot in command means the person who:

(1) Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight;

(2) Has been designated as pilot in command before or during the flight; and

(3) Holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if appropriate, for the conduct of the flight.


§ 61.3 Requirement for certificates, ratings, and authorizations.

(a)Required pilot certificate for operating a civil aircraft of the United States. No person may serve as a required pilot flight crewmember of a civil aircraft of the United States, unless that person:

(1) Has in the person's physical possession or readily accessible in the aircraft when exercising the privileges of that pilot certificate or authorization -

(i) A pilot certificate issued under this part and in accordance with § 61.19;

[Jim[_33_]]

On Saturday, November 24, 2018 at 8:28:57 AM UTC-8, Paul Agnew wrote:
> https://www.oig.dot.gov/search?search_api_views_fulltext=without+certifica te
>
> Good luck with that.
>
> PA

Thank you Paul. Sure looks like the federal court is unhappy with someone flying an aircraft without having a pilot certificate - assuming these aircraft belonged to the person and were not taken without permission. But what about the FAA?

[Jim[_33_]]

On Saturday, November 24, 2018 at 9:40:44 AM UTC-8, Sierra Whiskey wrote:
> 14 CFR (24NOV2018)
>
> § 91.3 Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.
> (a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.
>
> § 1.1 General Definitions
> Pilot in command means the person who:
>
> (1) Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight;
>
> (2) Has been designated as pilot in command before or during the flight; and
>
> (3) Holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if appropriate, for the conduct of the flight.
>
>
> § 61.3 Requirement for certificates, ratings, and authorizations.
>
> (a)Required pilot certificate for operating a civil aircraft of the United States. No person may serve as a required pilot flight crewmember of a civil aircraft of the United States, unless that person:
>
> (1) Has in the person's physical possession or readily accessible in the aircraft when exercising the privileges of that pilot certificate or authorization -
>
> (i) A pilot certificate issued under this part and in accordance with § 61.19;

Thank you Sierra Whiskey. This is all "angels on the head of a pin" stuff I suppose, but I do find it interesting. I think what has confused me is the "required pilot flight crewmember" phrase. Would this apply to a person who flies their own aircraft? Would the FAA consider that person a "required pilot flight crewmember"? I have no idea. Fortunately I have a certificate and am rated for the kind of aircraft I fly.
Just curious.

[Sierra Whiskey]

If it takes one crew member to fly, then that crew member is required. Otherwise it will be an "optionally piloted" aircraft or a "remotely operated" aircraft.

[[email protected]]

On Saturday, November 24, 2018 at 1:33:37 PM UTC-7, Sierra Whiskey wrote:
> If it takes one crew member to fly, then that crew member is required. Otherwise it will be an "optionally piloted" aircraft or a "remotely operated" aircraft.

Thanks. I will read the appropriate regulation to my Pegasus and warn it against wandering around without me.

[Jim[_33_]]

On Saturday, November 24, 2018 at 12:33:37 PM UTC-8, Sierra Whiskey wrote:
> If it takes one crew member to fly, then that crew member is required. Otherwise it will be an "optionally piloted" aircraft or a "remotely operated" aircraft.

Thank you Sierra Whiskey. Makes sense. I think my wish for direct and clear FARs is naive.

As an aside, it is also interesting that 61.31 appears to state that a pilot (certificated I suppose) only needs to be rated for a particular aircraft if the pilot is to fly another person or for compensation or hire in that aircraft.

Please, let us leave that pandora's box unopened.

[Darryl Ramm]

On Saturday, November 24, 2018 at 1:49:41 PM UTC-8, Jim wrote:
> On Saturday, November 24, 2018 at 12:33:37 PM UTC-8, Sierra Whiskey wrote:
> > If it takes one crew member to fly, then that crew member is required. Otherwise it will be an "optionally piloted" aircraft or a "remotely operated" aircraft.
>
> Thank you Sierra Whiskey. Makes sense. I think my wish for direct and clear FARs is naive.
>
> As an aside, it is also interesting that 61.31 appears to state that a pilot (certificated I suppose) only needs to be rated for a particular aircraft if the pilot is to fly another person or for compensation or hire in that aircraft.
>

You need to actually read what is written in the regulations. You are reading a clause that applies only in case of flight "Authorization in lieu of a type rating."

[Jim[_33_]]

On Saturday, November 24, 2018 at 2:13:06 PM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> On Saturday, November 24, 2018 at 1:49:41 PM UTC-8, Jim wrote:
> > On Saturday, November 24, 2018 at 12:33:37 PM UTC-8, Sierra Whiskey wrote:
> > > If it takes one crew member to fly, then that crew member is required. Otherwise it will be an "optionally piloted" aircraft or a "remotely operated" aircraft.
> >
> > Thank you Sierra Whiskey. Makes sense. I think my wish for direct and clear FARs is naive.
> >
> > As an aside, it is also interesting that 61.31 appears to state that a pilot (certificated I suppose) only needs to be rated for a particular aircraft if the pilot is to fly another person or for compensation or hire in that aircraft.
> >
>
> You need to actually read what is written in the regulations. You are reading a clause that applies only in case of flight "Authorization in lieu of a type rating."

Thank you Darryl. Sounds like me. I'll take a closer look.

[Jim[_33_]]

On Saturday, November 24, 2018 at 2:13:06 PM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> On Saturday, November 24, 2018 at 1:49:41 PM UTC-8, Jim wrote:
> > On Saturday, November 24, 2018 at 12:33:37 PM UTC-8, Sierra Whiskey wrote:
> > > If it takes one crew member to fly, then that crew member is required.. Otherwise it will be an "optionally piloted" aircraft or a "remotely operated" aircraft.
> >
> > Thank you Sierra Whiskey. Makes sense. I think my wish for direct and clear FARs is naive.
> >
> > As an aside, it is also interesting that 61.31 appears to state that a pilot (certificated I suppose) only needs to be rated for a particular aircraft if the pilot is to fly another person or for compensation or hire in that aircraft.
> >
>
> You need to actually read what is written in the regulations. You are reading a clause that applies only in case of flight "Authorization in lieu of a type rating."

I really should shut up since I have no idea what any of the FARs "really" mean.

14 CFR 61.31 (b) is titled "Authorization in lieu of a type rating". The section of 61.31 that seems to state the issue about the need for a rating is 61.31 (c). That section is titled "Aircraft category, class, and type ratings: Limitations on the carriage of persons, or operating for compensation or hire."

Since I do not understand any of this it would come as no surprise if (c) included (b).

I'm done.

[Jim[_33_]]

On Saturday, November 24, 2018 at 2:13:06 PM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> On Saturday, November 24, 2018 at 1:49:41 PM UTC-8, Jim wrote:
> > On Saturday, November 24, 2018 at 12:33:37 PM UTC-8, Sierra Whiskey wrote:
> > > If it takes one crew member to fly, then that crew member is required.. Otherwise it will be an "optionally piloted" aircraft or a "remotely operated" aircraft.
> >
> > Thank you Sierra Whiskey. Makes sense. I think my wish for direct and clear FARs is naive.
> >
> > As an aside, it is also interesting that 61.31 appears to state that a pilot (certificated I suppose) only needs to be rated for a particular aircraft if the pilot is to fly another person or for compensation or hire in that aircraft.
> >
>
> You need to actually read what is written in the regulations. You are reading a clause that applies only in case of flight "Authorization in lieu of a type rating."

Well, I'm more confused than ever. 61.31 (b) is titled "Authorization in lieu of a type rating." It is 61.31 (c), titled "Aircraft category, class, and type ratings: Limitations on the carriage of persons, or operating for compensation or hire." and it states:

" Unless a person holds a category, class, and type rating (if a class and type rating is required) that applies to the aircraft, that person may not act as pilot in command of an aircraft that is carrying another person, or is operated for compensation or hire. That person also may not act as pilot in command of that aircraft for compensation or hire."

But this is followed by (d):

(d)Aircraft category, class, and type ratings: Limitations on operating an aircraft as the pilot in command. To serve as the pilot in command of an aircraft, a person must -

(1) Hold the appropriate category, class, and type rating (if a class or type rating is required) for the aircraft to be flown; or

(2) Have received training required by this part that is appropriate to the pilot certification level, aircraft category, class, and type rating (if a class or type rating is required) for the aircraft to be flown, and have received an endorsement for solo flight in that aircraft from an authorized instructor."

I am no longer going to try and understand the FARs.

On the other hand, maybe 61.31 (d) is the FAR that requires a person flying an aircraft to have a certificate - assuming a rating cannot be held by a person who does not have a certificate.

I'm done.

[Dan Marotta]

Why do you care?

On 11/24/2018 3:37 PM, Jim wrote:
> On Saturday, November 24, 2018 at 2:13:06 PM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
>> On Saturday, November 24, 2018 at 1:49:41 PM UTC-8, Jim wrote:
>>> On Saturday, November 24, 2018 at 12:33:37 PM UTC-8, Sierra Whiskey wrote:
>>>> If it takes one crew member to fly, then that crew member is required. Otherwise it will be an "optionally piloted" aircraft or a "remotely operated" aircraft.
>>> Thank you Sierra Whiskey. Makes sense. I think my wish for direct and clear FARs is naive.
>>>
>>> As an aside, it is also interesting that 61.31 appears to state that a pilot (certificated I suppose) only needs to be rated for a particular aircraft if the pilot is to fly another person or for compensation or hire in that aircraft.
>>>
>> You need to actually read what is written in the regulations. You are reading a clause that applies only in case of flight "Authorization in lieu of a type rating."
> Well, I'm more confused than ever. 61.31 (b) is titled "Authorization in lieu of a type rating." It is 61.31 (c), titled "Aircraft category, class, and type ratings: Limitations on the carriage of persons, or operating for compensation or hire." and it states:
>
> " Unless a person holds a category, class, and type rating (if a class and type rating is required) that applies to the aircraft, that person may not act as pilot in command of an aircraft that is carrying another person, or is operated for compensation or hire. That person also may not act as pilot in command of that aircraft for compensation or hire."
>
> But this is followed by (d):
>
> (d)Aircraft category, class, and type ratings: Limitations on operating an aircraft as the pilot in command. To serve as the pilot in command of an aircraft, a person must -
>
> (1) Hold the appropriate category, class, and type rating (if a class or type rating is required) for the aircraft to be flown; or
>
> (2) Have received training required by this part that is appropriate to the pilot certification level, aircraft category, class, and type rating (if a class or type rating is required) for the aircraft to be flown, and have received an endorsement for solo flight in that aircraft from an authorized instructor."
>
> I am no longer going to try and understand the FARs.
>
> On the other hand, maybe 61.31 (d) is the FAR that requires a person flying an aircraft to have a certificate - assuming a rating cannot be held by a person who does not have a certificate.
>
> I'm done.

--
Dan, 5J

[Jim[_33_]]

On Saturday, November 24, 2018 at 5:28:50 PM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Why do you care?
>
> On 11/24/2018 3:37 PM, Jim wrote:
> > On Saturday, November 24, 2018 at 2:13:06 PM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> >> On Saturday, November 24, 2018 at 1:49:41 PM UTC-8, Jim wrote:
> >>> On Saturday, November 24, 2018 at 12:33:37 PM UTC-8, Sierra Whiskey wrote:
> >>>> If it takes one crew member to fly, then that crew member is required. Otherwise it will be an "optionally piloted" aircraft or a "remotely operated" aircraft.
> >>> Thank you Sierra Whiskey. Makes sense. I think my wish for direct and clear FARs is naive.
> >>>
> >>> As an aside, it is also interesting that 61.31 appears to state that a pilot (certificated I suppose) only needs to be rated for a particular aircraft if the pilot is to fly another person or for compensation or hire in that aircraft.
> >>>
> >> You need to actually read what is written in the regulations. You are reading a clause that applies only in case of flight "Authorization in lieu of a type rating."
> > Well, I'm more confused than ever. 61.31 (b) is titled "Authorization in lieu of a type rating." It is 61.31 (c), titled "Aircraft category, class, and type ratings: Limitations on the carriage of persons, or operating for compensation or hire." and it states:
> >
> > " Unless a person holds a category, class, and type rating (if a class and type rating is required) that applies to the aircraft, that person may not act as pilot in command of an aircraft that is carrying another person, or is operated for compensation or hire. That person also may not act as pilot in command of that aircraft for compensation or hire."
> >
> > But this is followed by (d):
> >
> > (d)Aircraft category, class, and type ratings: Limitations on operating an aircraft as the pilot in command. To serve as the pilot in command of an aircraft, a person must -
> >
> > (1) Hold the appropriate category, class, and type rating (if a class or type rating is required) for the aircraft to be flown; or
> >
> > (2) Have received training required by this part that is appropriate to the pilot certification level, aircraft category, class, and type rating (if a class or type rating is required) for the aircraft to be flown, and have received an endorsement for solo flight in that aircraft from an authorized instructor."
> >
> > I am no longer going to try and understand the FARs.
> >
> > On the other hand, maybe 61.31 (d) is the FAR that requires a person flying an aircraft to have a certificate - assuming a rating cannot be held by a person who does not have a certificate.
> >
> > I'm done.
>
> --
> Dan, 5J

Wonderful question! I have no idea - except I may be asked about it. Happily, I have no problem with answering "I have no idea".

I may be cursed with a need for what feels like clarity. I'm looking forward to the intervention.

[Charles Longley]

So can you put a non rated person (passenger) in an optionally piloted aircraft?

[[email protected]]

On Saturday, November 24, 2018 at 7:09:39 PM UTC-7, Charles Longley wrote:
> So can you put a non rated person (passenger) in an optionally piloted aircraft?

Ballast