First Glider LS4

[Jeff Runciman]

Thank you again for your advise. Any more thoughts
on the LS4? Any concerns with the age? What should
I pay for one? And are there any flying groups for
the LS4? Thank you again and I hope I can contribute
to the group as I go along.

Jeff

[Marc Ramsey]

Jeff Runciman wrote:
> Thank you again for your advise. Any more thoughts
> on the LS4? Any concerns with the age? What should
> I pay for one? And are there any flying groups for
> the LS4? Thank you again and I hope I can contribute
> to the group as I go along.

Make sure you check with the insurance companies (through the SSA
program, or otherwise) before you buy anything. They have very specific
experience requirements that will determine whether they will provide
you with a policy at a reasonable price, and even whether they will
insure you at all. One big factor is going to be the number of hours
you have in over 35:1 gliders...

Marc

[Stefan]

Marc Ramsey wrote:

> Make sure you check with the insurance companies (through the SSA
> program, or otherwise) before you buy anything. They have very specific
> experience requirements that will determine whether they will provide
> you with a policy at a reasonable price, and even whether they will
> insure you at all. One big factor is going to be the number of hours
> you have in over 35:1 gliders...

Considering the docile behaviour of the LS4 and, most important, the
very effective airbrakes, this makes no sense at all.

Stefan

[Stefan]

Jeff Runciman wrote:

> Thank you again for your advise. Any more thoughts
> on the LS4? Any concerns with the age?

The LS 4 is one of the most docile gliders I've ever flown. In some
European clubs it's even used as first solo training glider! The age is
no factor, the shape it's in is. Later LS4s have authomatic hook ups,
early ones don't, this should be reflected in the price.

The LS 4 has two negative points: One is the bad surface quality.
Depending on the use, they need a refinish rather soon. (In a club
environment after 15 years or so.) So take a careful look. The second is
the wheel brake. The wheel brake is a joke. This can be a problem if you
have to outland in a short field.

Stefan

[Janos Bauer]

Jeff Runciman wrote:
> Thank you again for your advise. Any more thoughts
> on the LS4? Any concerns with the age? What should
> I pay for one? And are there any flying groups for
> the LS4? Thank you again and I hope I can contribute
> to the group as I go along.

It's good to see that we managed to convince you;)
Waiting for your igc files on OLC!


/Janos

[Marc Ramsey]

Stefan wrote:
> Considering the docile behaviour of the LS4 and, most important, the
> very effective airbrakes, this makes no sense at all.

You expect insurance companies to do things that make sense?

Marc

[Doug Hoffman]

In article >,
Stefan > wrote:

> Marc Ramsey wrote:
>
> > Make sure you check with the insurance companies (through the SSA
> > program, or otherwise) before you buy anything. They have very specific
> > experience requirements that will determine whether they will provide
> > you with a policy at a reasonable price, and even whether they will
> > insure you at all. One big factor is going to be the number of hours
> > you have in over 35:1 gliders...
>
> Considering the docile behaviour of the LS4 and, most important, the
> very effective airbrakes, this makes no sense at all.

Marc is right about this one. I paid a higher premium at first with my
RS-15 (L/D=38) because I was a low time pilot in "anything" (about 20
hours). The insurance company explained why.

Regards,

-Doug

[Stefan]

Doug Hoffman wrote:

>>> insure you at all. One big factor is going to be the number of hours
>>> you have in over 35:1 gliders...

> Marc is right about this one. I paid a higher premium at first with my
> RS-15 (L/D=38) because I was a low time pilot in "anything" (about 20
> hours).

Higher premium because of low time in "anything" may make sense, but
because of low time in over 35:1 certainly doesn't.

Stefan

[Waduino]

I'm still building my experience before buying a first glider, and from
reading RAS over the past year or so, I've also concluded that an LS4 would
be a great choice.

Is there a newer model plane that people adore as much as an LS4 for its
good balance of performance and behaviour?
Thanks.
Waduino.

---

"Jeff Runciman" > wrote in message
...
> Thank you again for your advise. Any more thoughts
> on the LS4? Any concerns with the age? What should
> I pay for one? And are there any flying groups for
> the LS4? Thank you again and I hope I can contribute
> to the group as I go along.
>
> Jeff
>
>
>

[Janos Bauer]

Waduino wrote:
> I'm still building my experience before buying a first glider, and from
> reading RAS over the past year or so, I've also concluded that an LS4 would
> be a great choice.
>
> Is there a newer model plane that people adore as much as an LS4 for its
> good balance of performance and behaviour?
> Thanks.
> Waduino.

Discus2!

/Janos

[John Doe]

Well if you are looking for an easy flying glider...you
can't go too far wrong with a Discus, it doesn't get
the same rave reviews of handling like the LS4, but
is still one of the nicest gliders I've ever flown
and it is slightly newer without getting into the realm
of Discus 2's, ASW28's and other really expensive modern
German glass.

Barn door airbrakes make field landings easy, decent
enough wheelbrake, launches easy, docile stall, goes
like the clappers and is forgiving of most indescretions
in thermalling.

At 13:06 10 September 2004, Waduino wrote:
>I'm still building my experience before buying a first
>glider, and from
>reading RAS over the past year or so, I've also concluded
>that an LS4 would
>be a great choice.
>
>Is there a newer model plane that people adore as much
>as an LS4 for its
>good balance of performance and behaviour?
>Thanks.
>Waduino.
>
>---
>
>'Jeff Runciman' wrote in message
...
>> Thank you again for your advise. Any more thoughts
>> on the LS4? Any concerns with the age? What should
>> I pay for one? And are there any flying groups for
>> the LS4? Thank you again and I hope I can contribute
>> to the group as I go along.
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>

[Ventus B]

The wheel brake in my LS4 was also ineffective at first. Turns out all
I needed to do was a minor adjustment, and then you could put the
glider on it's nose. Secondly, there is also the possibility of
having the brakes modified (I believe by a motorcycle shop in
California) that will make the drum brakes very effective.
The LS4 was my first glider and a great one too. I couldn't have
asked for better handling and docile stall characteristics. It's
strong as hell, and the manually connected ailerons and spoilers were
a snap. In fact it was easier and faster to assemble my LS4 than my
second glider which was a Ventus that had automatic control hookups.
You can't go wrong with a well cared for LS4.


Stefan > wrote in message >...
> Jeff Runciman wrote:
>
> > Thank you again for your advise. Any more thoughts
> > on the LS4? Any concerns with the age?
>
> The LS 4 is one of the most docile gliders I've ever flown. In some
> European clubs it's even used as first solo training glider! The age is
> no factor, the shape it's in is. Later LS4s have authomatic hook ups,
> early ones don't, this should be reflected in the price.
>
> The LS 4 has two negative points: One is the bad surface quality.
> Depending on the use, they need a refinish rather soon. (In a club
> environment after 15 years or so.) So take a careful look. The second is
> the wheel brake. The wheel brake is a joke. This can be a problem if you
> have to outland in a short field.
>
> Stefan

[Tim Mara]

"Waduino" > wrote in message
...
> I'm still building my experience before buying a first glider, and from
> reading RAS over the past year or so, I've also concluded that an LS4
would
> be a great choice.
>
> Is there a newer model plane that people adore as much as an LS4 for its
> good balance of performance and behaviour?
> Thanks.
> Waduino.

Yes!.....HpH Glasflugel 304C!
newer...(new) nicer quality, better performance, all automatic control
hook-ups, better brakes, hinged panel, nicer cockpit, and even nicer
handling, etc etc etc
tim

[Andy Durbin]

Marc Ramsey > wrote in message >...
>
> Make sure you check with the insurance companies (through the SSA
> program, or otherwise) before you buy anything. They have very specific
> experience requirements that will determine whether they will provide
> you with a policy at a reasonable price, and even whether they will
> insure you at all. One big factor is going to be the number of hours
> you have in over 35:1 gliders...
>
> Marc

For the SSA plan the experience levels are set by flights in 35:1 or
greater not hours. That can make a huge difference. I've just been
through getting my inexperienced (flying that is) wife insured for my
ASW 19b.


Andy

[Stewart Kissel]

In fact it was easier and faster to assemble my LS4
than my
>second glider which was a Ventus that had automatic
>control hookups.

Mr B.-

RU positioning flaps in negative and being sure to
lift up a little on the trailing edge as the wings
go in? I time myself to make sure no lying here, and
I can consistently rig by myself with a rigger in 30
minutes from trailer top up to tape finished. Once
the first wing is in and positioned correctly...as
long as one is careful with the second wing for the
last 1'...I generally don't need help for the final
push from the other wing. Some guys also teflon the
fuse surface that the spar rubs on...but I find the
key is proper alignment...and a rigger helps with this
quite a bit. Also a nice flat asphalt surface.

[solo89]

I bought an LS4a just a few weeks ago. The insurance company asked
about the number of flights in 35:1 or greater. They didn't seem as
interested in hours. The question about hours did not reference l/d.
The question about flights did.

I had 99 flights in 35:1 or greater (total 103 flights). My hours were
pretty low. Something like 20 hours pic. In talking to others, I think
I have a pretty normal rate.

For me there is very little conversion. The only thing to adjust to is
a cg towhook. So far, that hasn't been an issue.

The glider is easy to fly. Coordination is much easier than G102/103.
I think now I can begin to shift some of my effort to what I want to
do with the glider and away from the mechanics of flying.

Tomorrow looks good for flight number 3. Wish me luck

Doug


Marc Ramsey > wrote in message >...
> Jeff Runciman wrote:
> > Thank you again for your advise. Any more thoughts
> > on the LS4? Any concerns with the age? What should
> > I pay for one? And are there any flying groups for
> > the LS4? Thank you again and I hope I can contribute
> > to the group as I go along.
>
> Make sure you check with the insurance companies (through the SSA
> program, or otherwise) before you buy anything. They have very specific
> experience requirements that will determine whether they will provide
> you with a policy at a reasonable price, and even whether they will
> insure you at all. One big factor is going to be the number of hours
> you have in over 35:1 gliders...
>
> Marc

[Marc Ramsey]

Stefan wrote:
> Higher premium because of low time in "anything" may make sense, but
> because of low time in over 35:1 certainly doesn't.

If you consider that, here in the US, time in "under 35:1 gliders" often
means Schweizer 2-33, it starts to make sense...

Marc

[Matt Herron]

I've been flying an LS-4 for the past two years. Everything said about
it in this forum is true -- it's a great first glider, responsive,
forgiving, with excellent thermalling and Xcountry qualities.

There's also a very good owners forum on Yahoo with lots of people
offering helpful advice:
http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/LS-gliders/

Negative points:

Surface: Mine has some gelcoat degrading near the wing roots but I
very much doubt if it affects performance much at all. I briefly
considered refinishing (expensive) but then decided to live with it.

Wheel brake: Admittedly not great, but there are ways to deal with it.
Search for the brake discussion in the Yahoo forum.

Tail wheel: A much more annoying problem in my estimation. In American
versions of the LS-4, a wheel the size of an in-line skate wheel is
mounted on a rubberized skid. DON'T ATTEMPT TO PUSH THE GLIDER
BACKWARD WITHOUT THE TAIL DOLLY. The skate wheel will swivvel sideways
causing all kinds of problems, the most serious of which is that the
glider may run off the runway on tow unless the tail wheel is lined up
carefully. I finally replaced the skate wheel with a decent sized tail
wheel, and all the problems disappeared.

Main wheel gas strut: When the gear is extended, it's locked in place
by a gas strut. These struts weaken after a few years of use and must
be replaced. Otherwise the gear may collapse on landing or (as mine
did) on takeoff. By all means make this your first maintenance check
if you buy an LS-4. The replacement strut is not particularly
expensive, and it's a hellofalot cheaper than a belly job. Again,
check the Yahoo forum for advice.

Please don't be put off by these negative points. Every glider has its
defects, but the LS-4 is a glider to love.

[Stefan]

Waduino wrote:

> Is there a newer model plane that people adore as much as an LS4 for its
> good balance of performance and behaviour?

LS 8

[Mark James Boyd]

Jeff Runciman > wrote:
>Thank you again for your advise. Any more thoughts
>on the LS4? Any concerns with the age? What should
>I pay for one? And are there any flying groups for
>the LS4? Thank you again and I hope I can contribute
>to the group as I go along.

Keep in mind that you are really talking about something different
from the hang gliding idea. An LS-4 vs. a Russia is different
in terms of landing out. Pulling something apart in a
field or short strip somewhere and getting the trailer
through the dirt with 300# vs 600# of glider is different.

I always had a hand disassembling the PW-5, and maybe
bought someone dinner for helping. With some gliders,
a lot of people scatter, or you might need to buy them
dinner <subtle off color remark begins> AND make them breakfast
<subtle off color remark ends>.

I'm going to go assemble a pegasus this weekend just to
feel the wings. If you have a chance, before buying,
disassemble the glider you are thinking of. Try a
PW-5/AC-4or5/Sparrowhawk, then try the LS-4.
Maybe it won't affect your decision, but it might
get you to buy wingstands or a gym membership...:P
--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

[Stefan]

Mark James Boyd wrote:

> , then try the LS-4.
> Maybe it won't affect your decision, but it might
> get you to buy wingstands or a gym membership...:P

If assembling an LS4 is an issue to you, then you *really* need that
membership urgently. Just a suugestion.

Stefan

[Andreas Maurer]

On 10 Sep 2004 10:50:45 -0700, (Mark James Boyd)
wrote:

>With some gliders,
>a lot of people scatter, or you might need to buy them
>dinner <subtle off color remark begins> AND make them breakfast
><subtle off color remark ends>.

Sounds likethe description of an ASH-25, Nmbus 4D or even an eta -
because these "people" (usually of the opposite sex) decide to stay
over night due to the sexy glider and its obviously rich owner...


<vbg>




Bye
Andreas

[Mark James Boyd]

In article >,
Stefan > wrote:
>Mark James Boyd wrote:
>
>> , then try the LS-4.
>> Maybe it won't affect your decision, but it might
>> get you to buy wingstands or a gym membership...:P
>
>If assembling an LS4 is an issue to you, then you *really* need that
>membership urgently. Just a suugestion.

Well, for a LOT of assemblies last year, I had the nicest,
greatest crew ever (my towpilot). But he's been doing this
about ten million years and ten billion times. It almost killed me
to even ask for his help 30 times in the 100 degrees at 8:30 am in
the harsh desert. Instead I wanted to let him swing on the hammock
and drink an iced tea while reading the paper (as he deserves).

Each pound of wing made me wince as this fine example of graceful
aging hefted the wingtip in my aid. My God, I'm starting to weep
as I write this, oh gentle reader... :'''(

So between my very sweet and dainty wife and my much-adored and
respected elders (all of whom I want to KEEP as friends), I shall
be seeking wings like feathers. Of course, only to the degree my
budget and <subtle colorful comment begins> eternal lust for
penetration <subtle colorful comment ends> allows.

And I'm only half-joking...a long car ride with two sweaty
crewmembers and me who just lifted 150+ pounds 50 feet and then over
a fence doesn't seem so good either...
--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

[OscarCVox]

>Well if you are looking for an easy flying glider...you
>can't go too far wrong with a Discus,

I couldnt agree more. We are using it as the first retractable club glider. We
keep them in the trailer rather than the hanger as they are so quick and simple
to rig.
Typically we can rig all three using just the three pilots in 15 minutes.
I think the wings are lighter than the LS4 as they have carbon spars.
You can even buy them new still according to Schliechers web site

[Bruce Hoult]

In article >,
Marc Ramsey > wrote:

> Stefan wrote:
> > Higher premium because of low time in "anything" may make sense, but
> > because of low time in over 35:1 certainly doesn't.
>
> If you consider that, here in the US, time in "under 35:1 gliders" often
> means Schweizer 2-33, it starts to make sense...

So how would you classify time in:

- Std Libelle (over 35:1)
- Grob 103 (over 35:1 ... just)
- ASK21 (over 35:1 ... just ... maybe)
- Club Libelle (a Std Libelle with fixed UC and bigger cockpit in an
effort to reduce it to exactly 35:1 to meet class rules)
- PW5 (under 35:1, a little)

--
Bruce | 41.1670S | \ spoken | -+-
Hoult | 174.8263E | /\ here. | ----------O----------

[J.M. Farrington]

You could find it a lot easier on the Shemp Hirth web site.

John
"OscarCVox" > wrote in message
...
> >Well if you are looking for an easy flying glider...you
>>can't go too far wrong with a Discus,
>
> I couldnt agree more. We are using it as the first retractable club
> glider. We
> keep them in the trailer rather than the hanger as they are so quick and
> simple
> to rig.
> Typically we can rig all three using just the three pilots in 15 minutes.
> I think the wings are lighter than the LS4 as they have carbon spars.
> You can even buy them new still according to Schliechers web site

[Bruce Hoult]

In article >,
(solo89) wrote:

> I had 99 flights in 35:1 or greater (total 103 flights). My hours were
> pretty low. Something like 20 hours pic. In talking to others, I think
> I have a pretty normal rate.

Hmm ... why do you need 35:1 when you're averaging 12 minutes per
flight? :-)

I'm up to just over 300 flights now, 200 hours PIC, 235 hours total.
Average flight times are within a minute or two of an interesting
pattern:

80 min: single seat (K6, PW5, Libelle)
40 min: PIC two seat (taking friends for rides in Janus or Grob)
20 min: P2 two seat (training, BFR, type conversion, site check..)

--
Bruce | 41.1670S | \ spoken | -+-
Hoult | 174.8263E | /\ here. | ----------O----------

[tango4]

I can rig and derig a Nimbus 3 using just a Cobra one man rigging dolly and
I'm fat and 45. If you can't do it with an LS4 may I suggest membership the
local lawn bowls or fishing club!

Ian

"Mark James Boyd" > wrote in message
news:41422a0f$1@darkstar...
> In article >,
> Stefan > wrote:
> >Mark James Boyd wrote:
> >
> >> , then try the LS-4.
> >> Maybe it won't affect your decision, but it might
> >> get you to buy wingstands or a gym membership...:P
> >
> >If assembling an LS4 is an issue to you, then you *really* need that
> >membership urgently. Just a suugestion.
>
> Well, for a LOT of assemblies last year, I had the nicest,
> greatest crew ever (my towpilot). But he's been doing this
> about ten million years and ten billion times. It almost killed me
> to even ask for his help 30 times in the 100 degrees at 8:30 am in
> the harsh desert. Instead I wanted to let him swing on the hammock
> and drink an iced tea while reading the paper (as he deserves).
>
> Each pound of wing made me wince as this fine example of graceful
> aging hefted the wingtip in my aid. My God, I'm starting to weep
> as I write this, oh gentle reader... :'''(
>
> So between my very sweet and dainty wife and my much-adored and
> respected elders (all of whom I want to KEEP as friends), I shall
> be seeking wings like feathers. Of course, only to the degree my
> budget and <subtle colorful comment begins> eternal lust for
> penetration <subtle colorful comment ends> allows.
>
> And I'm only half-joking...a long car ride with two sweaty
> crewmembers and me who just lifted 150+ pounds 50 feet and then over
> a fence doesn't seem so good either...
> --
>
> ------------+
> Mark J. Boyd

[Eric Greenwell]

tango4 wrote:
> I can rig and derig a Nimbus 3 using just a Cobra one man rigging dolly and
> I'm fat and 45.

How often do you do this in a plowed field?

One of Mark's points, as well as mine, is the potential retrieve
difficulty will much affect the pilot new to cross-country flying. A
Nimbus 3 isn't likely to inspire the new XC pilot to take ANY chance of
landing out. A Nimbus 3 can more easily reach the next airport than,
say, a Russia, but in our area that can be little consolation: many
airports are too narrow to land that 25 meter wing, so you are forced
into a field anyway.

I encourage the wannabe cross-country pilot to think about what will be
the biggest hinderance to that type of flying, then acquire what will
overcome that. It might plenty of L/D, or a light weight glider for easy
retrieving, or gungho friends/spouse/kids that like the "pick it out of
the field" adventure, or a powered glider. It's not the same for
everyone or every place.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA