Class mobility

[Pat Russell[_2_]]

The 57th Australian Multiclass Nationals are underway in Narromine.

They are running 4 classes: Open, 18m, 15m, and Std.

All four classes are handicapped. The entry rules seem to be:

a) You can enter Open Class if your wingspan is at least 18 meters.
b) You can enter 18m Class only if you use an 18m Class glider.
c) You can enter Open and 18m simultaneously if you meet both conditions (a) and (b), above.
d) You can enter 15m Class if your wingspan is <= 15 meters.
e) You can enter Std Class if you use a Standard Class glider.
f) You can enter 15m and Std simultaneously if you meet both conditions
(d) and (e), above.

They have a total of 79 entries: 24 Open, 22 18m, 19 15m, and 12 Std.

The total number of pilots (and gliders) is 44.

Tasking is constrained to settiing two tasks each day: one for the
Open/18m classes and one for the 15m/Std classes. Presumably, the two
tasks must be different; otherwise pilots would be tempted to enter more
than two classes simutaneously!

So, the pilots flying flapped 15 meter span gliders and the pilots
flying gliders with long wings are disadvantaged - they are entered in
only one class.

Everyone else can set their sights on two different podia. As of today
(Task 9), the leaders in the Open and 18m classes are the same people,
in the same order, in places 1-8.

I wonder how they handle the national ranking list and team selection!

[[email protected]]

Yes but do they pay seperate entry fees and or tow fees for each class? Pretty interesting stuff :)

[[email protected]]

It's not intentionally so elaborate, it's just that we 'virtually' lump in standards to 15m and 18's into open to give 15/open valid classes.

On Wednesday, 5 December 2018 17:30:49 UTC, Pat Russell wrote:
> The 57th Australian Multiclass Nationals are underway in Narromine.
>
> They are running 4 classes: Open, 18m, 15m, and Std.
>
> All four classes are handicapped. The entry rules seem to be:
>
> a) You can enter Open Class if your wingspan is at least 18 meters.
> b) You can enter 18m Class only if you use an 18m Class glider.
> c) You can enter Open and 18m simultaneously if you meet both conditions (a) and (b), above.
> d) You can enter 15m Class if your wingspan is <= 15 meters.
> e) You can enter Std Class if you use a Standard Class glider.
> f) You can enter 15m and Std simultaneously if you meet both conditions
> (d) and (e), above.
>
> They have a total of 79 entries: 24 Open, 22 18m, 19 15m, and 12 Std.
>
> The total number of pilots (and gliders) is 44.
>
> Tasking is constrained to settiing two tasks each day: one for the
> Open/18m classes and one for the 15m/Std classes. Presumably, the two
> tasks must be different; otherwise pilots would be tempted to enter more
> than two classes simutaneously!
>
> So, the pilots flying flapped 15 meter span gliders and the pilots
> flying gliders with long wings are disadvantaged - they are entered in
> only one class.
>
> Everyone else can set their sights on two different podia. As of today
> (Task 9), the leaders in the Open and 18m classes are the same people,
> in the same order, in places 1-8.
>
> I wonder how they handle the national ranking list and team selection!

[[email protected]]

What Matt said.
Our rules require 8 per class minimum, there were not enough 15s or Opens so mixed classes with scoring also for 18 and Standard as they have the numbers.
Handicaps allow slighly older gliders to compete fairly. (1% for $150K) 😉
Tom
....

[Pat Russell[_2_]]

I see your point about undersubscribed classes, and I agree that all
comers should be welcomed.

But I don't see how the contest differs from a 2-class event. You seem
to have a handicapped Open class and a handicapped 15m class, with
appropriate tasking for each.

The prospect of giving two trophies to the winner for flying a glider
that happens to meet the definition of two FAI classes seems a bit
contrived to me.

Best of luck for the rest of the comp!

-Pat

[[email protected]]

The thinking is, why should standard class be compromised (with an expanded handicap range including 60kg/sqm JS3-15's) because of the lack of 15m glider entrants? I think it's a very reasonable compromise.

On Thursday, 6 December 2018 12:51:51 UTC, Pat Russell wrote:
> I see your point about undersubscribed classes, and I agree that all
> comers should be welcomed.
>
> But I don't see how the contest differs from a 2-class event. You seem
> to have a handicapped Open class and a handicapped 15m class, with
> appropriate tasking for each.
>
> The prospect of giving two trophies to the winner for flying a glider
> that happens to meet the definition of two FAI classes seems a bit
> contrived to me.
>
> Best of luck for the rest of the comp!
>
> -Pat

[Jim White[_3_]]

We did this in the UK in 2017 with great success. 15s and standards flew
the same task with standards scored at a handicap of 100 and 15s at 103.

There was a 15s champion, a Standards champion and a contest winner too.

Jim

[Steve Leonard[_2_]]

Of interest to me is that it looks like only one person (Geoff Brown) chose to "span down" and is flying with his shorter span tips. Everyone else is flying with the longest span their plane can fly with. No ASG29s, JS3s, Ventus 2C or similar in 15 meter class. And the other JS1 is flying with his 21 meter tips on.

Also of interest to me is that all classes are handicapped.

Steve Leonard

[JS[_5_]]

On Thursday, December 6, 2018 at 9:31:11 AM UTC-8, Steve Leonard wrote:
> Of interest to me is that it looks like only one person (Geoff Brown) chose to "span down" and is flying with his shorter span tips. Everyone else is flying with the longest span their plane can fly with. No ASG29s, JS3s, Ventus 2C or similar in 15 meter class. And the other JS1 is flying with his 21 meter tips on.
>
> Also of interest to me is that all classes are handicapped.
>
> Steve Leonard

Most of the JS1s are B models, 18m only.
All the LS8s are flying with baby wingtips. One D2C flying at 18m.
I like the feel of the 18m D2C full of water, but at high speed it doesn't go like something with flaps.
Jim

[krasw]

Do these "phantom" classes give more FAI ranking points to pilots (4 winners instead of 2)? I dont see any other reason for this.

[Steve Leonard[_2_]]

On Thursday, December 6, 2018 at 11:52:30 AM UTC-6, JS wrote:
> On Thursday, December 6, 2018 at 9:31:11 AM UTC-8, Steve Leonard wrote:
> > Of interest to me is that it looks like only one person (Geoff Brown) chose to "span down" and is flying with his shorter span tips. Everyone else is flying with the longest span their plane can fly with. No ASG29s, JS3s, Ventus 2C or similar in 15 meter class. And the other JS1 is flying with his 21 meter tips on.
> >
> > Also of interest to me is that all classes are handicapped.
> >
> > Steve Leonard
>
> Most of the JS1s are B models, 18m only.
> All the LS8s are flying with baby wingtips. One D2C flying at 18m.
> I like the feel of the 18m D2C full of water, but at high speed it doesn't go like something with flaps.
> Jim

Yep, Jim, I was only speaking to the JS1c. One flying 18, one flying 21 meter. The one D2c also appears to be a turbo, so I am guessing he didn't want the really big wing loading hit if there were weak days. There are probably other Turbos that went "span up" for the same reason. And if you had an LS8 with 18 meter tips, I would think you would stick with the 15 meter ones because then you aren't going up against the flapped ships that are a generation or two newer than your plane. Yeah, they are racing against same span flapped wing ships in the "combined to make 15 meter" class, but their real competition is the Standard Class. They are more like me as "score sheet filler" in the 15 meter class. Yes, I see them in 3rd and 4th, but 800 points back.

Sure wish I was there, as it look like the weather has been good! May not see a thermal here in the flatlands of the US for another 2-3 months.

Steve Leonard

[[email protected]]

“
Of interest to me is that it looks like only one person (Geoff Brown) chose to "span down" and is flying with his shorter span tips. Everyone else is flying with the longest span their plane can fly with. No ASG29s, JS3s, Ventus 2C or similar in 15 meter class. And the other JS1 is flying with his 21 meter tips on.

Also of interest to me is that all classes are handicapped.

Steve Leonard “

Geoff has only recently bought the 21M tips and not flown with them yet. Great pilot, was Chief of the Airforce before he retired. 😊
Tom

[[email protected]]

“Do these "phantom" classes give more FAI ranking points to pilots (4 winners instead of 2)? I dont see any other reason for this. “

No.

[Steve Leonard[_2_]]

On Saturday, December 8, 2018 at 4:24:15 AM UTC-6, wrote:
> “
> Of interest to me is that it looks like only one person (Geoff Brown) chose to "span down" and is flying with his shorter span tips. Everyone else is flying with the longest span their plane can fly with. No ASG29s, JS3s, Ventus 2C or similar in 15 meter class. And the other JS1 is flying with his 21 meter tips on.
>
> Also of interest to me is that all classes are handicapped.
>
> Steve Leonard “
>
> Geoff has only recently bought the 21M tips and not flown with them yet. Great pilot, was Chief of the Airforce before he retired. 😊
> Tom

Thanks for the information, Tom! All the best to you and Kerrie!

Steve Leonard

[krasw]

On Saturday, 8 December 2018 12:25:35 UTC+2, wrote:
> “Do these "phantom" classes give more FAI ranking points to pilots (4 winners instead of 2)? I dont see any other reason for this. “
>
> No.

Reading FAI ranking rules it sure does. Pilot quality factor, competition rating all are based on number of good pilots in same class. Put same pilots to multiple classes and you have very good phantom competition that gives a lot of ranking points. Very clever.

[Tango Eight]

On Saturday, December 8, 2018 at 1:11:50 PM UTC-5, krasw wrote:
> On Saturday, 8 December 2018 12:25:35 UTC+2, wrote:
> > “Do these "phantom" classes give more FAI ranking points to pilots (4 winners instead of 2)? I dont see any other reason for this. “
> >
> > No.
>
> Reading FAI ranking rules it sure does. Pilot quality factor, competition rating all are based on number of good pilots in same class. Put same pilots to multiple classes and you have very good phantom competition that gives a lot of ranking points. Very clever.

Where are the ranking rules to be found?

Who gets to decide if any given nation's rules are "close enough" to Annex A (or some other gold standard) to merit FAI rankings based on their nationals?

T8

[krasw]

lauantai 8. joulukuuta 2018 22.24.01 UTC+2 Tango Eight kirjoitti:
> On Saturday, December 8, 2018 at 1:11:50 PM UTC-5, krasw wrote:
> > On Saturday, 8 December 2018 12:25:35 UTC+2, wrote:
> > > “Do these "phantom" classes give more FAI ranking points to pilots (4 winners instead of 2)? I dont see any other reason for this. “
> > >
> > > No.
> >
> > Reading FAI ranking rules it sure does. Pilot quality factor, competition rating all are based on number of good pilots in same class. Put same pilots to multiple classes and you have very good phantom competition that gives a lot of ranking points. Very clever.
>
> Where are the ranking rules to be found?
>
> Who gets to decide if any given nation's rules are "close enough" to Annex A (or some other gold standard) to merit FAI rankings based on their nationals?
>
> T8

They are available online, you seriously want help in using google?

[Ventus_a]

On Saturday, December 8, 2018 at 1:11:50 PM UTC-5, krasw wrote:
On Saturday, 8 December 2018 12:25:35 UTC+2, wrote:
“Do these "phantom" classes give more FAI ranking points to pilots (4 winners instead of 2)? I dont see any other reason for this. “

No.

Reading FAI ranking rules it sure does. Pilot quality factor, competition rating all are based on number of good pilots in same class. Put same pilots to multiple classes and you have very good phantom competition that gives a lot of ranking points. Very clever.

Where are the ranking rules to be found?



Who gets to decide if any given nation's rules are "close enough" to Annex A (or some other gold standard) to merit FAI rankings based on their nationals?

T8

Hi Evan

Try this link http://rankingdata.fai.org/sc3d.pdf

Cheers
Colin

[[email protected]]

We merge classes in Italy too, when the number of participants is lowish. And we have rules defining classes with a minimum number of participants for the national title to be awarded to the winner.
So, let's say we have an Open Class national. We setup a handicapped competition, any glider can participate; then we score with handicap. The final result goes to the IGC-ranking system.
At the same time, we create a results sheet, without handicap factors as the Italian definition of the Open Class is such. Based on the final, we have a second prize-giving ceremony and a national champion has the title.

The IGC-ranking will not allow duplication of the results, so this latter results remain in the annals of the NAC but don't affect the IGC Ranking.

Now, surely all participants of the handicapped competition are considered in the Ranking's calculation of the value. There is a completely fair impact on the points awarded by the Ranking. The only ones who can complain are the Open Class pilots, who get handicapped scoring so they might in some particular occasion get less personal points if they're beaten by a lower performance sailplane. On the other hand, they most probably would get much less points if the class was segregated (due to small participation), not to mention they wouldn't get the Title due to less than 6 participants in Open Class only.

Seems fair for all. Of course nothing is perfect.
In my humble opinion, removing the minimum number of participants would encourage participation, rather than the contrary. Mine is a minority position however.
What seems to motivate large participation at our competitions is the expected value for the IGC ranking (more pilots, more highly qualified pilots), combined with a friendly atmosphere, a welcoming region with good food and accommodation, a well-known competition area for easy management of strategies, and lastly a reliable organizing team.

Aldo Cernezzi
(competition director)
www.voloavela.it

[Tango Eight]

On Sunday, December 9, 2018 at 12:58:12 AM UTC-5, krasw wrote:
> lauantai 8. joulukuuta 2018 22.24.01 UTC+2 Tango Eight kirjoitti:
> > On Saturday, December 8, 2018 at 1:11:50 PM UTC-5, krasw wrote:
> > > On Saturday, 8 December 2018 12:25:35 UTC+2, wrote:
> > > > “Do these "phantom" classes give more FAI ranking points to pilots (4 winners instead of 2)? I dont see any other reason for this. “
> > > >
> > > > No.
> > >
> > > Reading FAI ranking rules it sure does. Pilot quality factor, competition rating all are based on number of good pilots in same class. Put same pilots to multiple classes and you have very good phantom competition that gives a lot of ranking points. Very clever.
> >
> > Where are the ranking rules to be found?
> >
> > Who gets to decide if any given nation's rules are "close enough" to Annex A (or some other gold standard) to merit FAI rankings based on their nationals?
> >
> > T8
>
> They are available online, you seriously want help in using google?

Merry Christmas to you as well.

T8

[Pat Russell[_2_]]

Aldo, thank you for your explanation of the way it works in Italy. I believe that it is the same in UK.

You say that the Ranking List does not allow duplicate entries. I take this to mean that Australia may not submit the 18m results separately from the Open Class results from their recent Multiclass Nationals.

In other words, while there are new national champions in 4 classes, the FAI will consider the Australian contest to have been a 2-class comp, for the purposes of ranking.

Can someone from IGC confirm this?

-Pat

[[email protected]]

T8,

US Nationals have been used for FAI ranking over the years if the contest management decides to report the results and pays the associated sanction fees. This has been hit or miss over the years.

As an example you can see the FAI ranking for Phil Gaisford who has ranking based on the PanAms in 2015 that is a Category I event he won and then the 2018 US Standard Class Nationals which he also won and is considered a Category II event. As others have said, the ranking of each event changes with the “quality” of competitors.

http://rankingdata.fai.org/SGP_displaypilotdets.php?pilotid=3167

[[email protected]]

“Aldo, thank you for your explanation of the way it works in Italy. I believe that it is the same in UK.

You say that the Ranking List does not allow duplicate entries. I take this to mean that Australia may not submit the 18m results separately from the Open Class results from their recent Multiclass Nationals.

In other words, while there are new national champions in 4 classes, the FAI will consider the Australian contest to have been a 2-class comp, for the purposes of ranking.

Can someone from IGC confirm this?

-Pat “

Pat, that is correct from the Aussie side of things, only 15M and Open class results will go to the IGC for ranking points.
The whole joint classes is to deal with the numbers of gliders, not anything to do with IGC rankings.
Tom
....