Payment for Airspace usage

[John Smith]

Whats this rumour I hear that Eurocontrol want ALL pilots to pay for the use
of the air, weather they use radio and radar services ir not?

John Smith

[Lars P. Hansen]

Unfortunately, there's something to it (in Europe, at least):
http://www.lasham.org.uk/news/news.html and
http://www.eurocontrol.int/enprm/

Lars Peder
Denmark

--
--
Lars P. Hansen


"John Smith" > wrote in message
...
> Whats this rumour I hear that Eurocontrol want ALL pilots to pay for the
use
> of the air, weather they use radio and radar services ir not?
>
> John Smith
>
>

[John Smith]

What happend to consultation?

John Smith
"John Smith" > wrote in message
...
> Whats this rumour I hear that Eurocontrol want ALL pilots to pay for the
> use of the air, weather they use radio and radar services ir not?
>
> John Smith
>

[goneill]

The only way to stop this kind of creeping clawing away of your flying
freedoms is to do like the general aviation, power and gliding did in
Australia when they tried to make radical changes to the air control
systems.
Everyone said they would refuse to use the systems and fly VFR exactly as
they were doing already.
This would cause chaos to the air control centres and IFR traffic.

This kind of civil disobedience campaigns have worked in the past for other
issues , other countries.

The Australian case I believe just faded away and was never revisited .

Imagine in Europe if every G A aircraft did not radio in or switch on
transponders ,this would bring the
the entire air traffic control system to its knees very quickly just from
the enormity of keeping IFR traffic
away from all those unknown radar targets.
The very organisations that are trying to impose the revenue gathering will
get hit hard in two ways, more staff = increased costs and less revenue from
the choked off flow of passengers.
The political masters will be reemed by ****ed off airline passengers
asking some some very hard
questions which they in turn will ask control authorities .

This is not that radical a suggestion ,historically this has been done many
times, many issues.
Flame suit on :)) Humour aside this maybe one of the few ways to combat this
kind of thing.
gary

"John Smith" > wrote in message
...
> Whats this rumour I hear that Eurocontrol want ALL pilots to pay for the
> use of the air, weather they use radio and radar services ir not?
>
> John Smith
>

[JF FUCHS]

> What happend to consultation?
The consultation period is very short - the closing date is 17 Sep 04
!!!!!

Everybody can answer using the the appropriate form .......

Regards,

Frederic

--
www.planeur.net - www.netcoupe.net

[Pete Reinhart]

Not exactly encourage comments, are they?
Can't call your congressman and raise hell over there can you?
Looks like it applies mostly to IFR operations though.
Good Luck.

Cheers!
"JF FUCHS" > wrote in message
...
> > What happend to consultation?
> The consultation period is very short - the closing date is 17 Sep 04
> !!!!!
>
> Everybody can answer using the the appropriate form .......
>
> Regards,
>
> Frederic
>
> --
> www.planeur.net - www.netcoupe.net
>

[Shawn]

goneill wrote:

> The only way to stop this kind of creeping clawing away of your flying
> freedoms is to do like the general aviation, power and gliding did in
> Australia when they tried to make radical changes to the air control
> systems.
> Everyone said they would refuse to use the systems and fly VFR exactly as
> they were doing already.
> This would cause chaos to the air control centres and IFR traffic.
>
> This kind of civil disobedience campaigns have worked in the past for other
> issues , other countries.
>
> The Australian case I believe just faded away and was never revisited .
>
> Imagine in Europe if every G A aircraft did not radio in or switch on
> transponders ,this would bring the
> the entire air traffic control system to its knees very quickly just from
> the enormity of keeping IFR traffic
> away from all those unknown radar targets.
> The very organisations that are trying to impose the revenue gathering will
> get hit hard in two ways, more staff = increased costs and less revenue from
> the choked off flow of passengers.
> The political masters will be reemed by ****ed off airline passengers
> asking some some very hard
> questions which they in turn will ask control authorities .
>
> This is not that radical a suggestion ,historically this has been done many
> times, many issues.
> Flame suit on :)) Humour aside this maybe one of the few ways to combat this
> kind of thing.

Sounds like a good way to get the new Homeland Security Brand
turbulators installed on your glider. They're 20 mm across, applied
randomly across the entire surface of the aircraft and delivered by an F-16.
Civil disobedience in the US carries higher penalties these days.
I'm putting my trust in AOPA (yes I'm a member) working from within the
system-for now.

Shawn

[BTIZ]

we already do when we pay aviation taxes on our fuel.. in US..
and for the gliders.. that is part of the tow plane cost.. so if you use
aero tow.. you are paying part of it..

BT

"goneill" > wrote in message
...
> The only way to stop this kind of creeping clawing away of your flying
> freedoms is to do like the general aviation, power and gliding did in
> Australia when they tried to make radical changes to the air control
> systems.
> Everyone said they would refuse to use the systems and fly VFR exactly as
> they were doing already.
> This would cause chaos to the air control centres and IFR traffic.
>
> This kind of civil disobedience campaigns have worked in the past for
other
> issues , other countries.
>
> The Australian case I believe just faded away and was never revisited .
>
> Imagine in Europe if every G A aircraft did not radio in or switch on
> transponders ,this would bring the
> the entire air traffic control system to its knees very quickly just from
> the enormity of keeping IFR traffic
> away from all those unknown radar targets.
> The very organisations that are trying to impose the revenue gathering
will
> get hit hard in two ways, more staff = increased costs and less revenue
from
> the choked off flow of passengers.
> The political masters will be reemed by ****ed off airline passengers
> asking some some very hard
> questions which they in turn will ask control authorities .
>
> This is not that radical a suggestion ,historically this has been done
many
> times, many issues.
> Flame suit on :)) Humour aside this maybe one of the few ways to combat
this
> kind of thing.
> gary
>
> "John Smith" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Whats this rumour I hear that Eurocontrol want ALL pilots to pay for the
> > use of the air, weather they use radio and radar services ir not?
> >
> > John Smith
> >
>
>

[Pete Reinhart]

My guess is that when the federales start shooting down GA aircraft the
phone line to Washington will melt.
I'm still gonna join AOPA.
Cheers!,
pete
"Shawn" > wrote in message
...
> goneill wrote:
>
> > The only way to stop this kind of creeping clawing away of your flying
> > freedoms is to do like the general aviation, power and gliding did in
> > Australia when they tried to make radical changes to the air control
> > systems.
> > Everyone said they would refuse to use the systems and fly VFR exactly
as
> > they were doing already.
> > This would cause chaos to the air control centres and IFR traffic.
> >
> > This kind of civil disobedience campaigns have worked in the past for
other
> > issues , other countries.
> >
> > The Australian case I believe just faded away and was never revisited .
> >
> > Imagine in Europe if every G A aircraft did not radio in or switch on
> > transponders ,this would bring the
> > the entire air traffic control system to its knees very quickly just
from
> > the enormity of keeping IFR traffic
> > away from all those unknown radar targets.
> > The very organisations that are trying to impose the revenue gathering
will
> > get hit hard in two ways, more staff = increased costs and less revenue
from
> > the choked off flow of passengers.
> > The political masters will be reemed by ****ed off airline passengers
> > asking some some very hard
> > questions which they in turn will ask control authorities .
> >
> > This is not that radical a suggestion ,historically this has been done
many
> > times, many issues.
> > Flame suit on :)) Humour aside this maybe one of the few ways to combat
this
> > kind of thing.
>
> Sounds like a good way to get the new Homeland Security Brand
> turbulators installed on your glider. They're 20 mm across, applied
> randomly across the entire surface of the aircraft and delivered by an
F-16.
> Civil disobedience in the US carries higher penalties these days.
> I'm putting my trust in AOPA (yes I'm a member) working from within the
> system-for now.
>
> Shawn

[goneill]

Security issues aside how would airforces across europe deal with 10-15000
radar targets on an average day ,the US is a separate issue with different
motives
driving the Authorities.
The European issue seems straight out revenue gathering with none or little
accounting
reasons presented to prove the case for widespread massive charging of all
GA aircraft.
,I am told in the region 15-30 pounds/$30-$60 US .

Imagine what would happen to our already depleted numbers if this charge was
applied
to every flight ,it would be a a huge impact .
I could guess that flight hours and pilot numbers would drop by 50% ,2nd
hand market
prices would collapse and the manufacturers sales of new aircraft would get
hit to a
similar extent, how many of them would survive given the difficult times
they are having
at the moment with most of them only 30-50% of the waiting times for
production that
they had a few years ago.
The US aircraft manufacturers would get hit as well in this scenario just
from follow on affects

Make no mistake this is a VERY serious issue for our sport and for GA
aviation as a whole.
I am on the other side of the world and I can see the downstream effects
quite clearly.

In the case of Gliding the European base of pilot numbers is the engine
which drives
new innovations and models and sustains the production industry.

The US AOPA organisation seems to be pretty switched on to what is required
in the
US political system and is actively pursuing the various avenues available.
There does not seem to be the the same activity /organisation in Europe and
with all the
different political playing fields it is a lot harder to combat the people
who are driving the
proposal.






"Shawn" > wrote in message
...
> goneill wrote:
>
>> The only way to stop this kind of creeping clawing away of your flying
>> freedoms is to do like the general aviation, power and gliding did in
>> Australia when they tried to make radical changes to the air control
>> systems.
>> Everyone said they would refuse to use the systems and fly VFR exactly as
>> they were doing already.
>> This would cause chaos to the air control centres and IFR traffic.
>>
>> This kind of civil disobedience campaigns have worked in the past for
>> other issues , other countries.
>>
>> The Australian case I believe just faded away and was never revisited .
>>
>> Imagine in Europe if every G A aircraft did not radio in or switch on
>> transponders ,this would bring the
>> the entire air traffic control system to its knees very quickly just from
>> the enormity of keeping IFR traffic
>> away from all those unknown radar targets.
>> The very organisations that are trying to impose the revenue gathering
>> will get hit hard in two ways, more staff = increased costs and less
>> revenue from the choked off flow of passengers.
>> The political masters will be reemed by ****ed off airline passengers
>> asking some some very hard
>> questions which they in turn will ask control authorities .
>>
>> This is not that radical a suggestion ,historically this has been done
>> many times, many issues.
>> Flame suit on :)) Humour aside this maybe one of the few ways to combat
>> this kind of thing.
>
> Sounds like a good way to get the new Homeland Security Brand turbulators
> installed on your glider. They're 20 mm across, applied randomly across
> the entire surface of the aircraft and delivered by an F-16.
> Civil disobedience in the US carries higher penalties these days.
> I'm putting my trust in AOPA (yes I'm a member) working from within the
> system-for now.
>
> Shawn