New Concept for Sailplane "racing"

[Steve Leonard[_2_]]

https://www.fai.org/news/new-contest-concept-sailplanes-electric-power?fbclid=IwAR1mW0o-A_Of5VwgpQ-dImjBxJcnwfARnhF0ErFSWfolyhLble-enOfPP9U

Camera on, drops newspaper on porch and runs....
Steve Leonard

[[email protected]]

" Each race will include an allowance of electrical energy that the pilot can use whenever he thinks appropriate."

Interesting idea, but this is such a major can of worms I could go on for pages, so will just stop here.

This could also spark a battery "arms race". Now not only would pilots need to fork over the big bucks for the latest and greatest air frame, they would also need to spend big bucks on the biggest, baddest battery available.

"The overall scoring will be based on each pilots elapsed time, similar to the scoring of the famous Tour De France cycle race. Pilots not completing the race will be allocated a time based on the slowest finisher’s time to ensure they will remain in the overall places during the contest."

I like that idea very much. Am I missing downsides to this? Perhaps a waiver could be obtained to try out at a contest.

P9

[John Foster]

This sounds much like the way the FAI has gone with Endurance Car racing, particularly with the LM prototypes. They are allowed a certain amount of energy per lap averaged over 3 laps, and if they go over it, they get penalized.

[Bob Kuykendall]

On Tuesday, December 11, 2018 at 1:27:01 PM UTC-8, wrote:
>...they would also need to spend big bucks on the biggest,
> baddest battery available...

Worth remembering that when good batteries are bad, they are very very bad. That elevates the risk/reward evaluation somewhat.

--Bob K.

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Tue, 11 Dec 2018 13:27:00 -0800, ktr wrote:

> This could also spark a battery "arms race". Now not only would pilots
> need to fork over the big bucks for the latest and greatest air frame,
> they would also need to spend big bucks on the biggest, baddest battery
> available.
>
Not necessarily. Here's what happens in the model world.

If they take even a passing look at how electric power is used in model
competition classes (F1Q free flight and F5B radio control) they use
onboard energy limiters. Exactly what the limiter does depends on the
class:

In F1Q the model climbs under power until either 30 seconds has elapsed
or the motor has chewed through its power limit (4 joules per gram of
model weight). The first of these to occur ends the motor run and the
model continues in gliding flight until it lands or maximum flight time
for the event is reached. Competitors are scored on the total flight time
they achieve over a set number of flights.

In F5B each flight is multitask: the model first flies laps round two
pylons for 2 minutes after which it is expected to soar for a further 10
minutes, ending with a spot landing. The flight is scored on the number
of laps flown, the difference between the soaring flight time and 10
minutes (the difference between actual flight time and 600 seconds
reduces the score) and the distance the model lands from the spot (the
closer to the spot it stops, the higher the score). There is an energy
limiter in the model that shuts the motor down as soon as the energy
limit is reached and prevents it starting again during that flight.

In view of this CIAM experience (CIAM is part of the FAI) I wouldn't
expect any electric manned glider class to have a hard limit on power
used, but I *would* expect every glider to carry a sealed energy logger
fitted between battery and motor and for this log, which might be
included in an enhanced IGC flight log, to be downloaded and scored when
the IGC flight log is checked. I'd expect then to apply a penalty (a big
DQ?) for exceeding the energy limit and possibly a bonus for finishing
with energy usage below the limit.

It would be reasonable to put limits put on battery size and weight
(there is in F5B) and probable that the energy limit would be set well
below the maximum capacity of suitable batteries (as in F1Q and F5B).


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[Emir Sherbi]

1)Great idea
2)Hard to implement in the short term.
3)Expensive as at least 3 ex-wife

[Martin Gregorie[_6_]]

On Tue, 11 Dec 2018 15:52:20 -0800, Emir Sherbi wrote:

> 1)Great idea 2)Hard to implement in the short term.
> 3)Expensive as at least 3 ex-wife

Which is expensive (apart from ex-wives ;-)?

I don't see why an energy logger would be much more expensive than an IGC
logger or a 'smart' electric meter. These days you can buy DC wattmeters
that handle up to 100A at 60v for $20. An energy logger is really just a
recording wattmeter but calibrated in joules rather than watt.hours


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

[[email protected]]

Here is my electric "glider", I look forward to cleaning up on the speed tasks:

https://www.flyingmag.com/siemens-electric-extra-records-successful-maiden-flight

[Steve Leonard[_2_]]

On Tuesday, December 11, 2018 at 7:20:33 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> Here is my electric "glider", I look forward to cleaning up on the speed tasks:
>
> https://www.flyingmag.com/siemens-electric-extra-records-successful-maiden-flight


Or, not.

https://electrek.co/2018/06/04/siemens-electric-plane-prototype-fire-crash-death/

Condolences to the families.

Steve Leonard

[Dan Marotta]

No parachutes?

On 12/11/2018 7:32 PM, Steve Leonard wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 11, 2018 at 7:20:33 PM UTC-6, wrote:
>> Here is my electric "glider", I look forward to cleaning up on the speed tasks:
>>
>> https://www.flyingmag.com/siemens-electric-extra-records-successful-maiden-flight
>
> Or, not.
>
> https://electrek.co/2018/06/04/siemens-electric-plane-prototype-fire-crash-death/
>
> Condolences to the families.
>
> Steve Leonard
>

--
Dan, 5J

[[email protected]]

It'll evolve into an electric motorplane race. What'll be funny is when they start arguing to be included in 'pure' sailplane record categories.

[Emir Sherbi]

All measurements comes with an associated uncertainty. In different points of the span there is also different uncertainty. What is the max that they will allow? How they will track the calibration? They will check before the grid the calibration status like the weight of the glider? There is a lot of room to cheat.

You are allowed to use an amount of energy from the batteries. Depending on the efficiency of the motor, controller, propeller is how useful is that energy. Here in Argentina we are building electric motors for the self launching system at half of the price of the European motors by reducing the efficiency only 3%. Imagine the cost of increasing it 1%.

[[email protected]]

If the electric energy used is so important how do you think tiny details like glider type will matter?! ;)
Ventus3FES versus GP14 versus Silent etc. 🤔

[[email protected]]

Some day I will own a glider with an electric motor (I hope)

BUT being able to turn that motor on to complete a task is a horrible idea and in my opinion will hurt the entire Soaring concept.

I am pretty sure if you turn a motor on in a Sailing race you day is over.

"Turn the motor on your task is over" makes sense - Having a motor to have the option to fly home or to a safe airport - makes sense.

This idea will all but require a motor to compete. Boo.........BAD IDEA

On another thread many were OK with moving closer to the FAI rules - with this new direction I am not so sure the US pilots would agree with this direction.


WH

[Mike C]

On Thursday, December 13, 2018 at 6:40:55 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> Some day I will own a glider with an electric motor (I hope)
>
> BUT being able to turn that motor on to complete a task is a horrible idea and in my opinion will hurt the entire Soaring concept.
>
> I am pretty sure if you turn a motor on in a Sailing race you day is over..
>
> "Turn the motor on your task is over" makes sense - Having a motor to have the option to fly home or to a safe airport - makes sense.
>
> This idea will all but require a motor to compete. Boo.........BAD IDEA
>
> On another thread many were OK with moving closer to the FAI rules - with this new direction I am not so sure the US pilots would agree with this direction.
>
>
> WH

If it happens it will be an entirely different competition class, a motor glider competition as opposed to a pure soaring comp, with different rules and mindsets. I think it is a good idea to give motor glider pilots a class of their own if they have the numbers and want it.

Mike

[son_of_flubber]

This is a great way to stimulate innovation.

[[email protected]]

If you think computing fair glider handicaps is a bitch, then just try to quantify and enforce the "amount of energy" used for each aircraft.