13 meter class

[Senna Van den Bosch]

I'd like to know what your opinions are on gliders with 13/13.5 meter span. I would personally be really interested in lighter/smaller gliders with good performance. What are prices on some? I found the GP 11 to be starting at € 69k without VAT.

[Tim Taylor]

You probably don’t want our opinion on the 13.5 meter class. So far it is a waste of time and resources. For light weight gliders the GP15 will be nearly as light as the 11 or 14 with better performance for very little extra cost. The 13.5 meter class should have never been approved by the FAI and has never attracted any real interest. It is similar to the failed World Class gliders and the newly proposed e-glider.

Back to gliders less than 15m, there is a minimum mass required for a fuselage and pilot, with modern materials the difference in weight for a 13.5 or 15m wing makes very little difference but impact of wingloading and performance are significant.

[[email protected]]

Smaller and lighter stuff is the way to go for me. After testflying the MiniLAK , Silent2Electro and visiting GPGliders in Poland I just ordered a MiniLak(FES).
GP11 is a very interesting product too, but deliverytime is 3 years (or more). I like the idea of small electric selflaunchers, hopefully this class will grow...

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Monday, December 24, 2018 at 7:02:30 AM UTC-8, Senna Van den Bosch wrote:
> I'd like to know what your opinions are on gliders with 13/13.5 meter span. I would personally be really interested in lighter/smaller gliders with good performance. What are prices on some? I found the GP 11 to be starting at € 69k without VAT.

Wings are too short, they should be 18 meters or more.

[Senna Van den Bosch]

Exactly my thought, but I have limited budget and just got myself a DG 101, but very interested in shorter span. Less weight and good performance is nice.

[[email protected]]

On Monday, December 24, 2018 at 11:46:51 AM UTC-5, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> On Monday, December 24, 2018 at 7:02:30 AM UTC-8, Senna Van den Bosch wrote:
> > I'd like to know what your opinions are on gliders with 13/13.5 meter span. I would personally be really interested in lighter/smaller gliders with good performance. What are prices on some? I found the GP 11 to be starting at € 69k without VAT.
>
> Wings are too short, they should be 18 meters or more.

Nah, 18m is way too short. You *need* at least 25m. :-)

For most of us, there are limits on the wingspan, whether due to money, airfield/towplane limitations, or body strength for rigging. I say: buy a glider you like and can afford, and make the best of it. In a 13.5m glider you won't cover quite as much distance on a given day as in an 18m glider, but you'll fly as much time and have as much fun. Maybe more fun, since the rigging and ground handling were easy and the glider is very responsive in the air. And in the hands of skilled pilots, short-wing gliders can fly quite far - check out the results of the 13.5 contests. 200-500km tasks here:
https://www.soaringspot.com/en/2nd-fai-13m-wgc-and-alfold-cup-szatymaz-2017/tasks/wgc-135-m/task-6-on-2017-07-08

Disclaimer: I fly a 12.6m glider. My previous glider was 16.6m.

[Senna Van den Bosch]

They are cheaper to buy new, but I haven't seen any being sold second hand. Performance wise they are quite all right and being light does make rigging and handling on the ground a lot easier, which is one of the main reasons I would be interested in one.

[[email protected]]

Senna,

Let me tell you my opinion about what 13.5 meters did for our Club.

For the longest time, we thought our members needed access to a single-seat 15-meter glider. With this, they could try cross-country, we thought. Eventually, members might buy their own 15-meter glider and go big time. Well, that was not happening.

Then, we acquired a Russia. That got the Club interested in cross-country; but still, they were not breaking the string between their comfort and getting beyond glide of home base. For those of us with 15-meter cross-country experience, we didn’t realize that we were not relating to the members who wanted to fly cross-country, but not the way the rest of us were thinking. These 13.5-meter cross-country pilots were tickled silly to fly a 50 km flight. Who’d a thunk it.

Then, we acquired a PW-5. We held ground school sessions for the glider; the attendance was spectacular. We had solo student pilots checking out. The PW-5 schedule filled up to the point where members overflowed into the Russia.

Now we call it the 27-meter pilots.

Raul Boerner
CFI
BFSS

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

wrote on 12/24/2018 5:56 PM:
>
> Senna,
>
> Let me tell you my opinion about what 13.5 meters did for our Club.
>
> For the longest time, we thought our members needed access to a single-seat 15-meter glider. With this, they could try cross-country, we thought. Eventually, members might buy their own 15-meter glider and go big time. Well, that was not happening.
>
> Then, we acquired a Russia. That got the Club interested in cross-country; but still, they were not breaking the string between their comfort and getting beyond glide of home base. For those of us with 15-meter cross-country experience, we didn’t realize that we were not relating to the members who wanted to fly cross-country, but not the way the rest of us were thinking. These 13.5-meter cross-country pilots were tickled silly to fly a 50 km flight. Who’d a thunk it.
>
> Then, we acquired a PW-5. We held ground school sessions for the glider; the attendance was spectacular. We had solo student pilots checking out. The PW-5 schedule filled up to the point where members overflowed into the Russia.
>
> Now we call it the 27-meter pilots.

Why did the PW5 energize the students/others so much more than the Russia? I've
flown both, and they seem nearly the same.


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/Guide-to-transponders-in-sailplanes-2014A.pdf

[[email protected]]

> Why did the PW5 energize the students/others so much more than the Russia? I've
> flown both, and they seem nearly the same.
>
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)

Eric,

While the performance is almost the same, the Russia has the retractable landing gear. Our model has a very flat wing angle of incidence requiring very good speed control on short final and during the transition to touchdown, to avoid too much tail wheel first. Thirdly, our particular model had very poor braking (we have recently installed a hydraulic brake system). These things spooked the lower time pilots and students.

The PW-5 is configured similarly to the ASK-21. So, we require a couple of flights in the ASK-21 for those who have not flown fiberglass, and to get used to the wheel configuration. The PW-5 is less pitch sensitive than the Russia.

For those who have not flown retractable landing gear, we require a couple of flights with an instructor in the L-23, raising and lowering the landing gear, before soloing the Russia. We watch their checklist procedures closely. In the past, we had several gear up landings so we are trying to reduce this possibility.

Raul Boerner

[Senna Van den Bosch]

Op woensdag 26 december 2018 08:56:40 UTC+1 schreef Senna Van den Bosch:
> Op dinsdag 25 december 2018 21:50:41 UTC+1 schreef Eric Greenwell:
> > wrote on 12/24/2018 5:56 PM:
> > >
> > > Senna,
> > >
> > > Let me tell you my opinion about what 13.5 meters did for our Club.
> > >
> > > For the longest time, we thought our members needed access to a single-seat 15-meter glider. With this, they could try cross-country, we thought.. Eventually, members might buy their own 15-meter glider and go big time. Well, that was not happening.
> > >
> > > Then, we acquired a Russia. That got the Club interested in cross-country; but still, they were not breaking the string between their comfort and getting beyond glide of home base. For those of us with 15-meter cross-country experience, we didn’t realize that we were not relating to the members who wanted to fly cross-country, but not the way the rest of us were thinking. These 13.5-meter cross-country pilots were tickled silly to fly a 50 km flight. Who’d a thunk it.
> > >
> > > Then, we acquired a PW-5. We held ground school sessions for the glider; the attendance was spectacular. We had solo student pilots checking out.. The PW-5 schedule filled up to the point where members overflowed into the Russia.
> > >
> > > Now we call it the 27-meter pilots.
> >
> > Why did the PW5 energize the students/others so much more than the Russia? I've
> > flown both, and they seem nearly the same.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> > - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> > https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
> > - "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
> >
> > http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/Guide-to-transponders-in-sailplanes-2014A.pdf
>
> I was more looking into mini LAK, AS 13.5, GP 11, ... PW-5 looks interesting as a trainer but wouldn't be sufficient for me :)

Also pricing is hard to come by, second hand 13.5 meter gliders even more rare.

[Matt Herron (Sr)]

On Tuesday, December 25, 2018 at 11:57:31 PM UTC-8, Senna Van den Bosch wrote:
> Op woensdag 26 december 2018 08:56:40 UTC+1 schreef Senna Van den Bosch:
> > Op dinsdag 25 december 2018 21:50:41 UTC+1 schreef Eric Greenwell:
> > > wrote on 12/24/2018 5:56 PM:
> > > >
> > > > Senna,
> > > >
> > > > Let me tell you my opinion about what 13.5 meters did for our Club.
> > > >
> > > > For the longest time, we thought our members needed access to a single-seat 15-meter glider. With this, they could try cross-country, we thought. Eventually, members might buy their own 15-meter glider and go big time.. Well, that was not happening.
> > > >
> > > > Then, we acquired a Russia. That got the Club interested in cross-country; but still, they were not breaking the string between their comfort and getting beyond glide of home base. For those of us with 15-meter cross-country experience, we didn’t realize that we were not relating to the members who wanted to fly cross-country, but not the way the rest of us were thinking. These 13.5-meter cross-country pilots were tickled silly to fly a 50 km flight. Who’d a thunk it.
> > > >
> > > > Then, we acquired a PW-5. We held ground school sessions for the glider; the attendance was spectacular. We had solo student pilots checking out. The PW-5 schedule filled up to the point where members overflowed into the Russia.
> > > >
> > > > Now we call it the 27-meter pilots.
> > >
> > > Why did the PW5 energize the students/others so much more than the Russia? I've
> > > flown both, and they seem nearly the same.
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
> > > - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
> > > https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
> > > - "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
> > >
> > > http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/Guide-to-transponders-in-sailplanes-2014A.pdf
> >
> > I was more looking into mini LAK, AS 13.5, GP 11, ... PW-5 looks interesting as a trainer but wouldn't be sufficient for me :)
>
> Also pricing is hard to come by, second hand 13.5 meter gliders even more rare.

I went to Lithuania in October, flew an experimental version of the LAk 17b FES that had been upgraded to self-launch, and then the MinLAK FES. I liked the Mini so well that I bought it. The deciding factor for me was that when pushed, it seem to hold altitude almost as well as my LS-6. The wing profile and the fact that it will take water probably make the difference. wing loading (with water) is the same as my LS-6, which does Xcountry very well.

However, if price is a limiting factor for you, the Mini may be out of reach. The glider is very new, and there are currently only 3-4 in the US. It will probably be some time before you are able to find one used. But among 13.5 gliders, the Mini in MHO is the standout choice.

[Senna Van den Bosch]

Thank you for your information. I have my DG 101 for almost a year now and in maybe 5 to 10 years might switch to something different. Hopefully it will catch on and prices drop a bit :)

[[email protected]]

Good afternoon and Happy New year to all!!!!

Thank you Matt for your reply. Your recent purchase of the Min Lak FES is the best endorsement yet of this concept, and I will be following you very, very closely.

John

[Ed A]

Oh, if soaring performance could be measured in smiles rather than miles! The PW-5 and Russia are definitely "world class".

[[email protected]]

The PW-5 and Russia are definitely "world class".

Only if everyone else at the field is blind. Looking at either one is painful.

[Dan Marotta]

I helped fly off the experimental hours on an early PeeWee.Â* It flew
pretty nicely but I never took it much past the field boundary.Â* Oh, and
I couldn't see it from inside the cockpit.Â* Standing outside was a
different matter...

On 1/2/2019 7:49 PM, wrote:
> The PW-5 and Russia are definitely "world class".
>
> Only if everyone else at the field is blind. Looking at either one is painful.
>

--
Dan, 5J

[George Haeh]

I enjoyed the PW-5 at a previous club and suspect I took it farther on XC than other club members. But over 50 kt. it was a lawn dart. That said it had a great nose for thermals: much needed because you couldn't afford to skip a thermal.

[Senna Van den Bosch]

Op vrijdag 4 januari 2019 01:02:04 UTC+1 schreef George Haeh:
> I enjoyed the PW-5 at a previous club and suspect I took it farther on XC than other club members. But over 50 kt. it was a lawn dart. That said it had a great nose for thermals: much needed because you couldn't afford to skip a thermal.

PW-5 looks really fun to fly but was more looking at the Albastar AS13.5, miniLAK or 13.5m GP gliders :)