Fun with trailling edge dive brakes

[Scott Elhardt]

I've been happily flying my H303 Mosquito for a year now and my
landings seem to be getting worse as time goes on. I have tried a lot
of approaches to the process, but inevitably I'm faster that I want to
be and don't touch as lightly as I'd like especially with a lot of
brake out.

Any trailing edge dive brake experts care to describe your accumulated
perspectives?

Scott

[Nick Gilbert]

For right or for wrong...

my technique was to pull everything on flare. when the mainwheel touches the
ground, gently slide brakes away.

Nick.

"Scott Elhardt" > wrote in message
om...
> I've been happily flying my H303 Mosquito for a year now and my
> landings seem to be getting worse as time goes on. I have tried a lot
> of approaches to the process, but inevitably I'm faster that I want to
> be and don't touch as lightly as I'd like especially with a lot of
> brake out.
>
> Any trailing edge dive brake experts care to describe your accumulated
> perspectives?
>
> Scott

[Stewart Kissel]

Hey, I know the feeling...
and I hardly claim to be an expert...but after 50 landings
in a Ventus B...my two cents are-

1.) I am not clear about your statement in regards
to speed...with everything hanging out, u just about
have to be vertical to get going to fast. At what
point do you pull full spoiler/flap? I tend to pull
everything out once I am absolutely positive I will
not be short...which means I can still be rather high...because
those things sure can get u down in a hurry!

2.) As you no doubt have discovered....with full extension
one does not spend much time floating in ground effect,
if you don't time your flare to be near the ground...it
is quite easy to drop it in.

3.) Since one should not modulate the controls once
on short final...I try to be a little long and just
point the nose down more to shorten up things....the
extra speed bleeds off quickly in the flare. In fact
a little extra speed helps with adjusting the flare
before the ship stops flying.

4.) If all else fails...try landing with half-spoiler
and +2 flap...you will touch at a faster speed, but
it is easier to float a greaser in this way. But stay
current on full flap landings for when you might need
it going into a short field.

5.) I don't try full flap landings in crosswinds...which
is what I have to deal with typically.


At 01:06 27 September 2004, Scott Elhardt wrote:
>I've been happily flying my H303 Mosquito for a year
>now and my
>landings seem to be getting worse as time goes on.
> I have tried a lot
>of approaches to the process, but inevitably I'm faster
>that I want to
>be and don't touch as lightly as I'd like especially
>with a lot of
>brake out.
>
>Any trailing edge dive brake experts care to describe
>your accumulated
>perspectives?
>
>Scott
>

[John Sinclair]

Klaus Holighaus once told me, 'With the Ventus, you
should thermal in landing flap and land in thermal
flap'. He was saying to wheel land with a tad of spoiler
and not normally use full landing flap. The bit about
thermaling in landing flap was a way to get the stick
to be free from the friction that most Venti's have
in thermal position. Dick Johnson wrote a good paper
on how to get rid of most of the stick friction. If
all else fails, buy a C model.
JJ

At 03:30 27 September 2004, Stewart Kissel wrote:
>Hey, I know the feeling...
>and I hardly claim to be an expert...but after 50 landings
>in a Ventus B...my two cents are-
>
>1.) I am not clear about your statement in regards
>to speed...with everything hanging out, u just about
>have to be vertical to get going to fast. At what
>point do you pull full spoiler/flap? I tend to pull
>everything out once I am absolutely positive I will
>not be short...which means I can still be rather high...because
>those things sure can get u down in a hurry!
>
>2.) As you no doubt have discovered....with full extension
>one does not spend much time floating in ground effect,
>if you don't time your flare to be near the ground...it
>is quite easy to drop it in.
>
>3.) Since one should not modulate the controls once
>on short final...I try to be a little long and just
>point the nose down more to shorten up things....the
>extra speed bleeds off quickly in the flare. In fact
>a little extra speed helps with adjusting the flare
>before the ship stops flying.
>
>4.) If all else fails...try landing with half-spoiler
>and +2 flap...you will touch at a faster speed, but
>it is easier to float a greaser in this way. But stay
>current on full flap landings for when you might need
>it going into a short field.
>
>5.) I don't try full flap landings in crosswinds...which
>is what I have to deal with typically.
>
>
>At 01:06 27 September 2004, Scott Elhardt wrote:
>>I've been happily flying my H303 Mosquito for a year
>>now and my
>>landings seem to be getting worse as time goes on.
>> I have tried a lot
>>of approaches to the process, but inevitably I'm faster
>>that I want to
>>be and don't touch as lightly as I'd like especially
>>with a lot of
>>brake out.
>>
>>Any trailing edge dive brake experts care to describe
>>your accumulated
>>perspectives?
>>
>>Scott
>>
>
>
>
>

[Tom Serkowski]

Scott,Take a few pattern tows. You'll be able to remember
any mistakes you made and be able to work on them immediately
instead of forgetting a week later.This worked wonders for my landings in a Laister Nugget
long ago. This was my first experience with a flaps
only ship.
Tom Serkowski
ASH-26E

[Tom Serkowski]

Scott,Take a few pattern tows. You'll be able to remember
any mistakes you made and be able to work on them immediately
instead of forgetting a week later.This worked wonders for my landings in a Laister Nugget
long ago. This was my first experience with a flaps
only ship.
Tom Serkowski
ASH-26E

[Marc Ramsey]

The technique I ended up with in my Ventus B was very similar to
Stewart's. Be high (200 feet or more) on short final, nose down and
pull full dive brake and flap, aim the nose at the touchdown spot,
control glidepath with pitch only, flare at the usual altitude, then
hold off until it the excess energy bled off (which wasn't long with all
that drag). Don't hesitate to put the nose way down (20 or 30 degrees
below the horizon), it's more controllable, and you won't go much over
60 knots at that angle with the dive brakes fully open.

Marc

[Ventus B]

Scott,
I flew a Ventus B for a while that had trailing edge dive brakes and I
know what you are talking about. You have to be extremely careful to
keep your airspeed up since the divebrakes are so effective, and
therefore that makes short field landings something that you must
practice. My gliderport has powerlines at both ends of the runway so
my final approaches were typically about 3 times higher than my
clubmates who were flying ships with spoilers. My first landings were
a bit bouncy because I was touching down with more than adequate
flying speed, but after time I was able to make smooth landings,
although not as short as I would have liked. One of the posts above
mentions pulling everything out at the flare. I tend to agree with
that approach except if you are higher than you expected on final and
then you would simply pull everything out a bit sooner. On my ship
you could not meter the dive brakes; they were either on or off,
therefore your patterns and airspeed control required more attention
to ensure that you didn't over or undershoot your touch down, hence my
tendency to come in high and make fast approaches.
My advice is to first simply get used to making smooth landings and
not worrying about how much runway you use. In calm air I was making
my approaches at about 65 knots; faster if there was any kind of wind.
This is probably somewhat faster than recommended, but I'm paranoid
about stall/spin accidents and the need for speed control for trailing
edge divebrake equiped ships. If you hold off just a foot or two
above the ground and let the speed bleed off then you won't bounce
after touching. Once you have your landings down using this
technique, then you can start slowing your approach just a little bit
at a time. You will find that your rollout shortens significantly as
your approach speed is lowered.
I can't stress enough though how important it is to keep an eye on
your airspeed and ensure that you maintain a safe velocity. Trailing
edge dive brakes are phenominal once you finese the technique but
don't feel that you are odd man out if it takes a lot of landings to
figure out how to do them.
Best of luck.



(Scott Elhardt) wrote in message >...
> I've been happily flying my H303 Mosquito for a year now and my
> landings seem to be getting worse as time goes on. I have tried a lot
> of approaches to the process, but inevitably I'm faster that I want to
> be and don't touch as lightly as I'd like especially with a lot of
> brake out.
>
> Any trailing edge dive brake experts care to describe your accumulated
> perspectives?
>
> Scott

[Shawn]

Scott Elhardt wrote:
> I've been happily flying my H303 Mosquito for a year now and my
> landings seem to be getting worse as time goes on. I have tried a lot
> of approaches to the process, but inevitably I'm faster that I want to
> be and don't touch as lightly as I'd like especially with a lot of
> brake out.
>
> Any trailing edge dive brake experts care to describe your accumulated
> perspectives?
>
> Scott

I'm flying a Mosquito now, and had a Ventus for a few years too, not
that I'm an expert.
I get my best landings by having the brakes/flaps out prior to the
flare. There's less work load in maintaining the correct pitch for the
airspeed when I've sill got some altitude, like 20 + feet. Even at 20
feet the nose must go down some, or I run out of air speed and drop it on.
If I've flown an accurate pattern, at 50 feet or so I pull full brakes
and maintain 53-55 kts. At about 5 feet I fairly abruptly arrest my
steep descent, then I perform a normal flare rotation to a slightly tail
low landing. Probably looks awful from the ground, but maintaining
pattern speed even with full brakes provides enough speed to rotate
through the flare. As for speed, the manual recommends 49 kts. I don't
feel comfortable that slow. Roll control is fairly weak, plus there's
not a lot of energy to flare. In calm conditions I fly the pattern at
55 kts.
Another poster advised to watch the airspeed with everything out. I
developed a good picture of the pitch attitude required to maintain
about 55 kts while at altitude (nose WAY down!). Also do some flying
around high up with everything out at minimum maneuvering speed so you
can see how low the nose *must* be, or else. With full brakes it takes
a long time to get going too fast, so too steep is not usually an
issue-unless you land in the fence at the near end of the strip. I pay
much more attention to attitude than the ASI when the brakes/flaps are
fully extended (not that I ignore it).

The Mosquito seems to be less draggy than the Ventus in the flare, and
wants to float more. Something I'm still adjusting to (23 flights in
the Mosquito so far). Also, the Ventus has three brake settings, Off,
half, and full. The Mosquito has lots more modulation, especially with
the dive brake. Once I extend full brakes/flaps within 20 or so feet of
the ground, don't mess with them. Just fly it to the ground that way.

Cheers,
Shawn

[Tim Mara]

just use partial dive brakes (still far more effective than most spoilered
ships) until you're down close to the flare....then drag everything
out..it's like having a drag chute.the glider will slow and touch down
effortlessly...
you can pretty much then use the dive brakes to get you slowed down and
hardly need a wheel brake
once you get use to doing this you'll never be happy with anything less!
tim

"Scott Elhardt" > wrote in message
om...
> I've been happily flying my H303 Mosquito for a year now and my
> landings seem to be getting worse as time goes on. I have tried a lot
> of approaches to the process, but inevitably I'm faster that I want to
> be and don't touch as lightly as I'd like especially with a lot of
> brake out.
>
> Any trailing edge dive brake experts care to describe your accumulated
> perspectives?
>
> Scott

[Sf760]

Scott,
As a mosquito pilot, once you're sure you're in the field, use full
brake, maintain 50kts (if it's not too rough or windy, otherwise 55kts) and
leave the brakes fully out. When you flare, the time to do it is just AFTER you
want to, i.e. a couple of feet lower. Aim to touch down main and tailwheels
together. It works for me.

Hope this helps,

Simon.

[OscarCVox]

> I'm faster that I want to
>be and don't touch as lightly as I'd like

Remember to control your speed by attitude. If you are too fast you are likely
to bounce despite flaps and airbrakes.
The correct speed and a fully held off flare at the correct height should
enable 'greasers' every time.

[Geoff Vincent]

Scott,

I'm surprised that no PIK 20B or HP pilots have so far joined in the
trailing-edge brakes debate! I've been flying my 20B now for 2 years
(400+ hrs and 178 landings) and have to admit that landing can be a
high work-load time especially in windy conditions. Generally letting
down with 45-60 degree flaps at anything faster than 55 kts results in
a bounce or two - best results occur at around 48 kts in still air.

I've practised trying to 2-point the ship ad nausium but finally
concluded that the higher angle of attack simply increases the risk of
excessive float. Now I settle her onto the main wheel then steadily
wind off the flap to -8 degrees. The transition from neutral to -4
results in the tail-wheel kissing the ground and I then ease the stick
back to nail the tail down and progress to -8 to ensure best aileron
authority for the roll-out, using wheel brake as required.

In gusty conditions I restrict the flap setting to 30-40 degrees and
approach at Vs plus half wind-speed. One strong gust with 60+ flap
can stop you dead, drop you in and spoil your whole day as I found out
the hard way, even with 65 kts on.

Geoff Vincent
VH-GAX


On 26 Sep 2004 17:42:58 -0700, (Scott Elhardt)
wrote:

>I've been happily flying my H303 Mosquito for a year now and my
>landings seem to be getting worse as time goes on. I have tried a lot
>of approaches to the process, but inevitably I'm faster that I want to
>be and don't touch as lightly as I'd like especially with a lot of
>brake out.
>
>Any trailing edge dive brake experts care to describe your accumulated
>perspectives?
>
>Scott

[Scott Elhardt]

Thanks to all who responded.

There are many great recommendations to think about. Landing this
sailplane for me, has been like my golf game - I manged very well
until I tried to do 'better'!

I will definately devote some fall flying time to some pattern tows
before the long white no-fly season in Minnesota.

Thanks again

Scott

[Tom Serkowski]

Scott,Take a few pattern tows. You'll be able to remember
any mistakes you made and be able to work on them immediately
instead of forgetting a week later.This worked wonders for my landings in a Laister Nugget
long ago. This was my first experience with a flaps
only ship.
Tom Serkowski
ASH-26E

[Tim Mara]

Early PIK20, HP, SGS-135 and others have flaps only, they are different
than the trailing edge dive brakes on the Mosquito, 304, Hornet, Ventus
.....the trailing edge dive brakes are balanced with opening on top and
bottom, they do not use the same very high angle of nose down as the flaps
only gliders and techniques are somewhat different.. actually easier and
more effective with the trailing edge dive brakes....
tim


"Geoff Vincent" > wrote in message
...
> Scott,
>
> I'm surprised that no PIK 20B or HP pilots have so far joined in the
> trailing-edge brakes debate! I've been flying my 20B now for 2 years
> (400+ hrs and 178 landings) and have to admit that landing can be a
> high work-load time especially in windy conditions. Generally letting
> down with 45-60 degree flaps at anything faster than 55 kts results in
> a bounce or two - best results occur at around 48 kts in still air.
>
> I've practised trying to 2-point the ship ad nausium but finally
> concluded that the higher angle of attack simply increases the risk of
> excessive float. Now I settle her onto the main wheel then steadily
> wind off the flap to -8 degrees. The transition from neutral to -4
> results in the tail-wheel kissing the ground and I then ease the stick
> back to nail the tail down and progress to -8 to ensure best aileron
> authority for the roll-out, using wheel brake as required.
>
> In gusty conditions I restrict the flap setting to 30-40 degrees and
> approach at Vs plus half wind-speed. One strong gust with 60+ flap
> can stop you dead, drop you in and spoil your whole day as I found out
> the hard way, even with 65 kts on.
>
> Geoff Vincent
> VH-GAX
>
>
> On 26 Sep 2004 17:42:58 -0700, (Scott Elhardt)
> wrote:
>
>>I've been happily flying my H303 Mosquito for a year now and my
>>landings seem to be getting worse as time goes on. I have tried a lot
>>of approaches to the process, but inevitably I'm faster that I want to
>>be and don't touch as lightly as I'd like especially with a lot of
>>brake out.
>>
>>Any trailing edge dive brake experts care to describe your accumulated
>>perspectives?
>>
>>Scott
>

[Jont]

Hi Tim,

I'm considering purchasing a Mosquito listed on W&W current day 5/8/2014. Kevin Wayt and Rick Walters warn against trailing edge brakes after Rick's accident dropping his Ventus B in while on short final in heavy shear at Minden. I'd like to speak with you by phone to be talked through how to avoid possible problems and become comfortable before I commit to purchase a Mosquito. You can reach me at .

Thanks.

Jon T.


just use partial dive brakes (still far more effective than most spoilered
ships) until you're down close to the flare....then drag everything
out..it's like having a drag chute.the glider will slow and touch down
effortlessly...
you can pretty much then use the dive brakes to get you slowed down and
hardly need a wheel brake
once you get use to doing this you'll never be happy with anything less!
tim

"Scott Elhardt" wrote in message
om...
I've been happily flying my H303 Mosquito for a year now and my
landings seem to be getting worse as time goes on. I have tried a lot
of approaches to the process, but inevitably I'm faster that I want to
be and don't touch as lightly as I'd like especially with a lot of
brake out.

Any trailing edge dive brake experts care to describe your accumulated
perspectives?

Scott