Recirculate cockpit air to keep feet warm?

[[email protected]]

As we know, flying in wave with the sun shining, much of the cockpit stays reasonably warm, but the feet, down in the shade, get cold. So, as I'm here at home on a cold night with a fan helping distribute the heat from the wood stove to another room, it occurred to me that something like that may be possible in the cockpit? A small fan (using a fraction of the electric power that the typical instrument panel uses), perhaps with a short duct, could move sun-warmed air towards the feet. Has that been tried? Does it help? Would it use more electrical power than electrically heated insoles?

Back when I flew an HP-14 which had a canopy that extended forward over the rudder pedals, my feet were much warmer in cold but sunny weather than they are in my current glider. As long as I was pointed towards the sun, that is - typically pointed into a West wind in the afternoon. As soon as I turned around to the East the cockpit temperature plunged.

[Darryl Ramm]

On Tuesday, December 25, 2018 at 9:53:19 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> As we know, flying in wave with the sun shining, much of the cockpit stays reasonably warm, but the feet, down in the shade, get cold. So, as I'm here at home on a cold night with a fan helping distribute the heat from the wood stove to another room, it occurred to me that something like that may be possible in the cockpit? A small fan (using a fraction of the electric power that the typical instrument panel uses), perhaps with a short duct, could move sun-warmed air towards the feet. Has that been tried? Does it help? Would it use more electrical power than electrically heated insoles?
>
> Back when I flew an HP-14 which had a canopy that extended forward over the rudder pedals, my feet were much warmer in cold but sunny weather than they are in my current glider. As long as I was pointed towards the sun, that is - typically pointed into a West wind in the afternoon. As soon as I turned around to the East the cockpit temperature plunged.

It's not sun warmed air at play. It's sun warmed legs/feet.

[Dan Marotta]

I've had electric insoles and they were worthless.Â* I've also used
chemical heaters and they worked somewhat, but it was uncomfortable
having something wedged inside my shoe.Â* Now we use insulated booties
which fit over sneakers and hold in the body's own heat. I've flown many
hours in wave and my feat stayed toasty regardless of the sun or lack
thereof.Â* On one trip where it was exceptionally cold, I opened a
chemical heater at altitude and stuck it inside my jacket to help keep
my core warm.

These look quite bulky, but they're soft and fit into my pedal area.Â* It
is a Stemme, however so there's a bit of extra room.Â* I have a friend
who flies an HpH 304CZ and he wears them every time in the winter months.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01BE8I0LW/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

On 12/26/2018 12:01 AM, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 25, 2018 at 9:53:19 PM UTC-8, wrote:
>> As we know, flying in wave with the sun shining, much of the cockpit stays reasonably warm, but the feet, down in the shade, get cold. So, as I'm here at home on a cold night with a fan helping distribute the heat from the wood stove to another room, it occurred to me that something like that may be possible in the cockpit? A small fan (using a fraction of the electric power that the typical instrument panel uses), perhaps with a short duct, could move sun-warmed air towards the feet. Has that been tried? Does it help? Would it use more electrical power than electrically heated insoles?
>>
>> Back when I flew an HP-14 which had a canopy that extended forward over the rudder pedals, my feet were much warmer in cold but sunny weather than they are in my current glider. As long as I was pointed towards the sun, that is - typically pointed into a West wind in the afternoon. As soon as I turned around to the East the cockpit temperature plunged.
> It's not sun warmed air at play. It's sun warmed legs/feet.

--
Dan, 5J

[Dan Marotta]

Oh, and look at the test video included with the ad for the boot
insulators.Â* It's quite impressive!Â* I had not noticed it before.

On 12/26/2018 8:19 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
> I've had electric insoles and they were worthless.Â* I've also used
> chemical heaters and they worked somewhat, but it was uncomfortable
> having something wedged inside my shoe.Â* Now we use insulated booties
> which fit over sneakers and hold in the body's own heat. I've flown
> many hours in wave and my feat stayed toasty regardless of the sun or
> lack thereof.Â* On one trip where it was exceptionally cold, I opened a
> chemical heater at altitude and stuck it inside my jacket to help keep
> my core warm.
>
> These look quite bulky, but they're soft and fit into my pedal area.Â*
> It is a Stemme, however so there's a bit of extra room.Â* I have a
> friend who flies an HpH 304CZ and he wears them every time in the
> winter months.
>
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01BE8I0LW/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
>
>
> On 12/26/2018 12:01 AM, Darryl Ramm wrote:
>> On Tuesday, December 25, 2018 at 9:53:19 PM UTC-8,
>> wrote:
>>> As we know, flying in wave with the sun shining, much of the cockpit
>>> stays reasonably warm, but the feet, down in the shade, get cold.Â*
>>> So, as I'm here at home on a cold night with a fan helping
>>> distribute the heat from the wood stove to another room, it occurred
>>> to me that something like that may be possible in the cockpit?Â* A
>>> small fan (using a fraction of the electric power that the typical
>>> instrument panel uses), perhaps with a short duct, could move
>>> sun-warmed air towards the feet.Â* Has that been tried?Â* Does it
>>> help? Would it use more electrical power than electrically heated
>>> insoles?
>>>
>>> Back when I flew an HP-14 which had a canopy that extended forward
>>> over the rudder pedals, my feet were much warmer in cold but sunny
>>> weather than they are in my current glider.Â* As long as I was
>>> pointed towards the sun, that is - typically pointed into a West
>>> wind in the afternoon.Â* As soon as I turned around to the East the
>>> cockpit temperature plunged.
>> It's not sun warmed air at play. It's sun warmed legs/feet.
>

--
Dan, 5J

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, December 25, 2018 at 11:53:19 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> As we know, flying in wave with the sun shining, much of the cockpit stays reasonably warm, but the feet, down in the shade, get cold. So, as I'm here at home on a cold night with a fan helping distribute the heat from the wood stove to another room, it occurred to me that something like that may be possible in the cockpit? A small fan (using a fraction of the electric power that the typical instrument panel uses), perhaps with a short duct, could move sun-warmed air towards the feet. Has that been tried? Does it help? Would it use more electrical power than electrically heated insoles?
>
> Back when I flew an HP-14 which had a canopy that extended forward over the rudder pedals, my feet were much warmer in cold but sunny weather than they are in my current glider. As long as I was pointed towards the sun, that is - typically pointed into a West wind in the afternoon. As soon as I turned around to the East the cockpit temperature plunged.

Have been flying now for 5 years with these Gerbing insoles and the recommended temp controller, also from Gerbing.
https://www.revzilla.com/motorcycle/gerbings-hybrid-heated-insoles?gclid=Cj0KCQiA6ozhBRC8ARIsAIh_VC3VuQFlmdIR 97bMRXMqSwgtk5GS3yZrq0hXuDHc-c2NXc6F8ADytDcaAvYwEALw_wcB
I run them on a dedicated 12V LiFePo4 battery. After 2 hours at altitude when the feet get cold I turn the unit on and dial the controller back to a setting that I tested prior to keep my feet toasty but not hot. I know of at least 4 pilots who also use these with no issues.
Herb

[JS[_5_]]

On Wednesday, December 26, 2018 at 8:16:20 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 25, 2018 at 11:53:19 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> > As we know, flying in wave with the sun shining, much of the cockpit stays reasonably warm, but the feet, down in the shade, get cold. So, as I'm here at home on a cold night with a fan helping distribute the heat from the wood stove to another room, it occurred to me that something like that may be possible in the cockpit? A small fan (using a fraction of the electric power that the typical instrument panel uses), perhaps with a short duct, could move sun-warmed air towards the feet. Has that been tried? Does it help? Would it use more electrical power than electrically heated insoles?
> >
> > Back when I flew an HP-14 which had a canopy that extended forward over the rudder pedals, my feet were much warmer in cold but sunny weather than they are in my current glider. As long as I was pointed towards the sun, that is - typically pointed into a West wind in the afternoon. As soon as I turned around to the East the cockpit temperature plunged.
>
> Have been flying now for 5 years with these Gerbing insoles and the recommended temp controller, also from Gerbing.
> https://www.revzilla.com/motorcycle/gerbings-hybrid-heated-insoles?gclid=Cj0KCQiA6ozhBRC8ARIsAIh_VC3VuQFlmdIR 97bMRXMqSwgtk5GS3yZrq0hXuDHc-c2NXc6F8ADytDcaAvYwEALw_wcB
> I run them on a dedicated 12V LiFePo4 battery. After 2 hours at altitude when the feet get cold I turn the unit on and dial the controller back to a setting that I tested prior to keep my feet toasty but not hot. I know of at least 4 pilots who also use these with no issues.
> Herb

The Gerbing line seems to be the industry standard. They work well.
The cheap stuff gets bad reviews.
Don't do as one USAF Test Pilot School pilot tried, chemical warmers inside a pressure suit, unless you enjoy burns.
Jim

[son_of_flubber]

An extra layer of insulation from the knees to the ankles is beneficial

https://www.amazon.com/Womens-Winter-Warmers-Colorful-Trendy/dp/B07HGCXT23/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1545853081&sr=1-2-spons&keywords=leg+warmers+for+men&psc=1

Wear under your trouser legs to get maximum benefit.

When our legs get cold, we feel it first in our feet.

[V1[_4_]]

I wouldn’t argue with the suggestions for foot/boot insulation – that’s all good. I would only add a perspective on treating causes vs. symptoms.

I lead winter outings for the Sierra Club and have read a moderate amount about the issues of keeping warm. A key point is that the reason (cause) for hands/feet/ears/etc. getting cold is that our core (chest & central organs) are getting cool, so our body compensates to protect the core by reducing blood flow to the extremities (symptom). We of course don’t want to be so warm at our core as to sweat, but one response to feet being cold is to add a layer to our core, so as to move up within the range of comfortable core temperatures. In other words, you might not *feel* particularly cold in your core, but still be able to be somewhat warmer without sweating. Something to consider.
- Frank Allen

[[email protected]]

Skyboots 4g from www.streckenflug.at are excellent.

[[email protected]]

The sun and you are about the only sources of natural heat at altitude. Outside air circulating around the feet is especially cold. After eliminating that, then it's conceivable that circulating inside air with the right sun angle might help. But the sun isn't always going to be so cooperating.

For more comfort on a less than nice day, you can be adjusting for +70 on the ground and -30 in the cockpit at altitude. Eventually some heat for the toes is good. With electric heaters under your foot pads, it takes less than a watt per toe and you definitely need to be able to control it.

The best socks I've found are these.
https://www.thorlo.com/shop/men-mountaineering-socks

Those, plus boots, and adjustable layers starting with capilene long johns work for me.

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, December 27, 2018 at 12:40:59 AM UTC-5, V1 wrote:
> I wouldn’t argue with the suggestions for foot/boot insulation – that’s all good. I would only add a perspective on treating causes vs. symptoms.
>
> ... A key point is that the reason (cause) for hands/feet/ears/etc. getting cold is that our core (chest & central organs) are getting cool, so our body compensates to protect the core by reducing blood flow to the extremities (symptom). ...
> - Frank Allen

OK, but people do differ. In my case, with rather long and very skinny legs, my feet (and fingers) get cold even when my core is quite warm and even sweaty. Long underpants and/or leggings like flubber mentioned do help. But like I said, there was a huge change in my feet comfort in cold conditions when I changed from a glider with the transparent canopy extending to the feet vs. one with the feet and lower legs in the shade.

[Dan Daly[_2_]]

On Thursday, December 27, 2018 at 10:52:22 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> On Thursday, December 27, 2018 at 12:40:59 AM UTC-5, V1 wrote:
> > I wouldn’t argue with the suggestions for foot/boot insulation – that’s all good. I would only add a perspective on treating causes vs. symptoms.
> >
> > ... A key point is that the reason (cause) for hands/feet/ears/etc. getting cold is that our core (chest & central organs) are getting cool, so our body compensates to protect the core by reducing blood flow to the extremities (symptom). ...
> > - Frank Allen
>
> OK, but people do differ. In my case, with rather long and very skinny legs, my feet (and fingers) get cold even when my core is quite warm and even sweaty. Long underpants and/or leggings like flubber mentioned do help. But like I said, there was a huge change in my feet comfort in cold conditions when I changed from a glider with the transparent canopy extending to the feet vs. one with the feet and lower legs in the shade.

If your feet get cold, wear a bigger/better hat. I use a knitted cap with thinsulate. I switch from a normal soaring hat when I get off tow. Also, I switch socks just before takeoff to reduce moisture, and spray my feet with antiperspirant in the morning. Making sure you don't sweat getting the glider ready is also critical.

[AS]

On Wednesday, December 26, 2018 at 5:16:20 PM UTC+1, wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 25, 2018 at 11:53:19 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> > As we know, flying in wave with the sun shining, much of the cockpit stays reasonably warm, but the feet, down in the shade, get cold. So, as I'm here at home on a cold night with a fan helping distribute the heat from the wood stove to another room, it occurred to me that something like that may be possible in the cockpit? A small fan (using a fraction of the electric power that the typical instrument panel uses), perhaps with a short duct, could move sun-warmed air towards the feet. Has that been tried? Does it help? Would it use more electrical power than electrically heated insoles?
> >
> > Back when I flew an HP-14 which had a canopy that extended forward over the rudder pedals, my feet were much warmer in cold but sunny weather than they are in my current glider. As long as I was pointed towards the sun, that is - typically pointed into a West wind in the afternoon. As soon as I turned around to the East the cockpit temperature plunged.
>
> Have been flying now for 5 years with these Gerbing insoles and the recommended temp controller, also from Gerbing.
> https://www.revzilla.com/motorcycle/gerbings-hybrid-heated-insoles?gclid=Cj0KCQiA6ozhBRC8ARIsAIh_VC3VuQFlmdIR 97bMRXMqSwgtk5GS3yZrq0hXuDHc-c2NXc6F8ADytDcaAvYwEALw_wcB
> I run them on a dedicated 12V LiFePo4 battery. After 2 hours at altitude when the feet get cold I turn the unit on and dial the controller back to a setting that I tested prior to keep my feet toasty but not hot. I know of at least 4 pilots who also use these with no issues.
> Herb

An alternative to these insoles are heated socks. I bought a pair years ago from a hunting supply catalog. The advantage is that they warm your feet all around up to your ankles rather than grilling just the bottom of your feet. They run on 4.5VDC. I built a 12V-to-4.5V converter using a fast switching power supply with a simple on-off rocker switch for temperature control.. Worked well and did not drain the battery too badly.

Uli
'AS'

[[email protected]]

I had really good luck sticking with my original footwear. (after a wave camp participant had to hike out after an accident, serious though to functional footwear)

I think put my cycling neoprene overshoes on OVER my footwear, with chemical footwarmers on TOP of my original footwear, but under the neoprene.

Plenty of warmth, without overheating my toes with the heaters on my feet directly.

In the event of a land out.. Peel them off and on your way.

JP

[[email protected]]

I have used that idea - neoprene cycling boots over ordinary boots + thick socks. The neoprene helps a little but absolutely nothing like as good as Skyboots 3g or 4g over flying boots. Chemical warmers are ok but a bit pot luck. Electric insoles or socks are OK but the batteries are a nuisance - I have various types in my sock drawer.

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, December 27, 2018 at 7:10:25 PM UTC-5, AS wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 26, 2018 at 5:16:20 PM UTC+1, wrote:
> > On Tuesday, December 25, 2018 at 11:53:19 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> > > As we know, flying in wave with the sun shining, much of the cockpit stays reasonably warm, but the feet, down in the shade, get cold. So, as I'm here at home on a cold night with a fan helping distribute the heat from the wood stove to another room, it occurred to me that something like that may be possible in the cockpit? A small fan (using a fraction of the electric power that the typical instrument panel uses), perhaps with a short duct, could move sun-warmed air towards the feet. Has that been tried? Does it help? Would it use more electrical power than electrically heated insoles?
> > >
> > > Back when I flew an HP-14 which had a canopy that extended forward over the rudder pedals, my feet were much warmer in cold but sunny weather than they are in my current glider. As long as I was pointed towards the sun, that is - typically pointed into a West wind in the afternoon. As soon as I turned around to the East the cockpit temperature plunged.
> >
> > Have been flying now for 5 years with these Gerbing insoles and the recommended temp controller, also from Gerbing.
> > https://www.revzilla.com/motorcycle/gerbings-hybrid-heated-insoles?gclid=Cj0KCQiA6ozhBRC8ARIsAIh_VC3VuQFlmdIR 97bMRXMqSwgtk5GS3yZrq0hXuDHc-c2NXc6F8ADytDcaAvYwEALw_wcB
> > I run them on a dedicated 12V LiFePo4 battery. After 2 hours at altitude when the feet get cold I turn the unit on and dial the controller back to a setting that I tested prior to keep my feet toasty but not hot. I know of at least 4 pilots who also use these with no issues.
> > Herb
>
> An alternative to these insoles are heated socks. I bought a pair years ago from a hunting supply catalog. The advantage is that they warm your feet all around up to your ankles rather than grilling just the bottom of your feet. They run on 4.5VDC. I built a 12V-to-4.5V converter using a fast switching power supply with a simple on-off rocker switch for temperature control. Worked well and did not drain the battery too badly.
>
> Uli
> 'AS'

Uli: if those socks are designed to work with 3 alkaline cells, nominally 4..5V, they probably would be quite happy with 5V too (like fresh alkalines). (Or you can put a regular silicon diode into the supply line to reduce the 5V to about 4.3.) So you can use a cheap 12V to 5V converter (designed for USB jack charging).

[Dan Marotta]

A cheap voltage converter is likely to be very noisy in the RF
spectrum.Â* I tried one for charging a pda and it continually broke
squelch on my radio.

And, as to the original topic of circulating cockpit air, I don't think
that would be of much use and the air in the cockpit is cold. You feel
warm due to infrared heating from the sun.Â* I've felt quite warm in the
sunlight, seen my breath condense in front of me, and been very cold the
instant I flew under a lennie.

Dan

On 12/28/2018 6:45 PM, wrote:
> On Thursday, December 27, 2018 at 7:10:25 PM UTC-5, AS wrote:
>> On Wednesday, December 26, 2018 at 5:16:20 PM UTC+1, wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, December 25, 2018 at 11:53:19 PM UTC-6, wrote:
>>>> As we know, flying in wave with the sun shining, much of the cockpit stays reasonably warm, but the feet, down in the shade, get cold. So, as I'm here at home on a cold night with a fan helping distribute the heat from the wood stove to another room, it occurred to me that something like that may be possible in the cockpit? A small fan (using a fraction of the electric power that the typical instrument panel uses), perhaps with a short duct, could move sun-warmed air towards the feet. Has that been tried? Does it help? Would it use more electrical power than electrically heated insoles?
>>>>
>>>> Back when I flew an HP-14 which had a canopy that extended forward over the rudder pedals, my feet were much warmer in cold but sunny weather than they are in my current glider. As long as I was pointed towards the sun, that is - typically pointed into a West wind in the afternoon. As soon as I turned around to the East the cockpit temperature plunged.
>>> Have been flying now for 5 years with these Gerbing insoles and the recommended temp controller, also from Gerbing.
>>> https://www.revzilla.com/motorcycle/gerbings-hybrid-heated-insoles?gclid=Cj0KCQiA6ozhBRC8ARIsAIh_VC3VuQFlmdIR 97bMRXMqSwgtk5GS3yZrq0hXuDHc-c2NXc6F8ADytDcaAvYwEALw_wcB
>>> I run them on a dedicated 12V LiFePo4 battery. After 2 hours at altitude when the feet get cold I turn the unit on and dial the controller back to a setting that I tested prior to keep my feet toasty but not hot. I know of at least 4 pilots who also use these with no issues.
>>> Herb
>> An alternative to these insoles are heated socks. I bought a pair years ago from a hunting supply catalog. The advantage is that they warm your feet all around up to your ankles rather than grilling just the bottom of your feet. They run on 4.5VDC. I built a 12V-to-4.5V converter using a fast switching power supply with a simple on-off rocker switch for temperature control. Worked well and did not drain the battery too badly.
>>
>> Uli
>> 'AS'
> Uli: if those socks are designed to work with 3 alkaline cells, nominally 4.5V, they probably would be quite happy with 5V too (like fresh alkalines). (Or you can put a regular silicon diode into the supply line to reduce the 5V to about 4.3.) So you can use a cheap 12V to 5V converter (designed for USB jack charging).

--
Dan, 5J

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

I have been watching........yes, a ton of cheap switching convertors create errors to other electronics. This alone can create issues.
Period.
Sunlight/ER keeps feet warm.
Insulation to metal pedals keeps feet warm.
A "warm circulator" may help, insulation is first. Wicking away moisture is second, anything else is a bonus.
No, I have no real time in extreme flying cold, I have dealt with hiking, camping, etc.

Damp sucks.
Solar helps.

Yes, may be warm at the airport, sucks to be way up in cloud shadows.........

[BobW]

On 12/29/2018 10:37 AM, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> ...
> Sunlight/ER keeps feet warm. Insulation to metal pedals keeps feet warm. A
> "warm circulator" may help, insulation is first. Wicking away moisture is
> second, anything else is a bonus. No, I have no real time in extreme flying
> cold, I have dealt with hiking, camping, etc.
>
> Damp sucks. Solar helps.
>
> Yes, may be warm at the airport, sucks to be way up in cloud
> shadows.........

Presumably every wave-pilot-wannabe RASident, SSA-member, has read and (ahem!)
absorbed Dr. Dan Johnson's Most Excellent, topically-relevant, article in the
December, 2018, "Soaring" mag? Nine pages of ad-hoc-relevant
research/wisdom...that 100% matches with my personal experiences over the years.

FWIW, the absolute coldest I've ever been in my life was a short (~60 minutes
from T.O. to landing), 100% easy, duskish, wave flight, in December, from a
ground elevation of 5,300' msl to 18k' msl and back, entirely in heavy cloud
shadow. For a westerner at an inland western-site (Boulder, CO), it was
simultaneously: visually enthralling; plain ol' fun; painless in the
'gnarly-conditions' aspect (no nasty ground winds or gnarly turbulence beneath
the wave); above-freezing (when rigging) mild temps on the ground.

How cold was it? I was too busy trying to stop the shivers as I neared pattern
altitude, so I could fly the pattern, to remember! Derigging was no help
'generating heat.' Driving home 18 miles involved intermittent bouts of
shivering. Car heat? Ha ha ha! Two bowls of hot homemade chicken soup barely
helped. I was too cold to bother with pulling a hot bath. Tripling the covers
while trying to stop the post-soup shivers in hopes of going to sleep (as a
means of getting my mind off my cold-soaked woes) eventually did the trick. I
awoke 'somewhat-less-cold' and seriously in need of additional food calories
the next morning...and swore to never be so foolish again. (I'd considered
turning around around 15k' asl on the way up, but didn't as it seemed just
'too soon after establishing a no-brainer wave climb.' Besides, it looked as
though - possibly - I might be able to climb into sunlight while remaining
beneath 18k'. It wasn't. What an idiot!)

And yes, I was wearing long johns top and bottom, had several layers of
clothing ankle to neck, had on cheapie (but effective!) moon boots (de rigeur
gliderpilot garb in the 1980s; still have 'em and they still work). knit cap,
excellent gloves. What got/felt cold was my torso...no extremities chilblains
or anything. I should've begun descending the instant I realized I was
underdressed for the evening's conditions...an option considered and
intentionally delayed.

Dumb, dumb, dumb...

Bob W.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

[Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)]

I have done only a few flights above 13K' MSL in the east, never higher than that.
In other parts, 13K' MSL is a decent Soaring day.

So, I am NOT an expert!

Yes, metal rudder pedals can suck heat real fast.
Sunlight can help a lot.
Being damp (rigging, damp day, whatever.....) REALLY sucks heat.

I can only go by many years/miles hiking and likely lower flight altitudes for flying.
I will TOTALLY defer to others that think my "great altitude" is sorta the bottom of their "safe altitude".

Gotta think of where you are vs. where info is coming from.

[Dan Marotta]

And nothing beats wool for staying warm.Â* It even keeps you warm when
it's wet.Â* A little tidbit from arctic survival school...

On 12/29/2018 1:38 PM, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> I have done only a few flights above 13K' MSL in the east, never higher than that.
> In other parts, 13K' MSL is a decent Soaring day.
>
> So, I am NOT an expert!
>
> Yes, metal rudder pedals can suck heat real fast.
> Sunlight can help a lot.
> Being damp (rigging, damp day, whatever.....) REALLY sucks heat.
>
> I can only go by many years/miles hiking and likely lower flight altitudes for flying.
> I will TOTALLY defer to others that think my "great altitude" is sorta the bottom of their "safe altitude".
>
> Gotta think of where you are vs. where info is coming from.

--
Dan, 5J

[[email protected]]

On Saturday, December 29, 2018 at 10:55:23 AM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
> A cheap voltage converter is likely to be very noisy in the RF
> spectrum.Â* I tried one for charging a pda and it continually broke
> squelch on my radio.
>
> And, as to the original topic of circulating cockpit air, I don't think
> that would be of much use and the air in the cockpit is cold. You feel
> warm due to infrared heating from the sun.Â* I've felt quite warm in the
> sunlight, seen my breath condense in front of me, and been very cold the
> instant I flew under a lennie.
>
> Dan

Many of us use such a 12V-5V converter to power a device, such as a PDA, phone, tablet or e-reader, that serves as a glide computer. Some of those off-the-shelf voltage converters are radio-noisier than others. I chose one that had a reputation for reasonable quietness, and added ferrite rings on the wires on both ends of it. It does not cause any practical problems with my radio reception.

Interesting musings re: infrared heating by the sun. Yeah the perceived cooling when the sunlight is blocked is very fast.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Dan Marotta wrote on 12/29/2018 2:53 PM:
> And nothing beats wool for staying warm.* It even keeps you warm when it's wet.* A
> little tidbit from arctic survival school...

Since my down or polyester jacket or snow suit won't be getting wet during a wave
flight, I've gone that route. Don't have anything with wool in it, and thermal
underwear, "street clothes", and an down or polyester snowsuit keep me warm. It
helps a lot that I've fixed all the canopy and vent leaks, and that I usually stop
at 0 deg F on the climb.

--
Eric Greenwell -

[Dan Marotta]

I have a Gerbing heated suit for motorcycle riding when I lived in
Upstate NY but it's too bulky and a big power hog so it wouldn't work in
the glider.Â* I could use the socks, however, but the boot warmers that I
originally posted are probably better for a still air environment.

On 12/29/2018 7:00 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> Dan Marotta wrote on 12/29/2018 2:53 PM:
>> And nothing beats wool for staying warm. It even keeps you warm when
>> it's wet.Â* A little tidbit from arctic survival school...
>
> Since my down or polyester jacket or snow suit won't be getting wet
> during a wave flight, I've gone that route. Don't have anything with
> wool in it, and thermal underwear, "street clothes", and an down or
> polyester snowsuit keep me warm. It helps a lot that I've fixed all
> the canopy and vent leaks, and that I usually stop at 0 deg F on the
> climb.
>

--
Dan, 5J

[AS]

> > An alternative to these insoles are heated socks. I bought a pair years ago from a hunting supply catalog. The advantage is that they warm your feet all around up to your ankles rather than grilling just the bottom of your feet. They run on 4.5VDC. I built a 12V-to-4.5V converter using a fast switching power supply with a simple on-off rocker switch for temperature control. Worked well and did not drain the battery too badly.
> >
> > Uli
> > 'AS'
>
> Uli: if those socks are designed to work with 3 alkaline cells, nominally 4.5V, they probably would be quite happy with 5V too (like fresh alkalines). (Or you can put a regular silicon diode into the supply line to reduce the 5V to about 4.3.) So you can use a cheap 12V to 5V converter (designed for USB jack charging).


Hi Moshe,

>> ... if those socks are designed to work with 3 alkaline cells, nominally 4.5V,...)
That's exactly how they were supposed to be powered. Each sock had a long lead connecting to a small pouch that held three D-cells (remember those? ;-) ). No on-off switch - basically a 'short circuit' through the socks!

USB port? Ha - I built this long before there were USB ports! :-) The fast switching power supply does a good job of regulating the voltage down to 5V and these socks - being a resistive load - seem to be quite happy with that. I have not measured the amps they draw. A 12V-5V cell phone charger may be at it's limit with that type of load.

Uli
'AS'

[danlj]

On Tuesday, December 25, 2018 at 11:53:19 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> As we know, flying in wave with the sun shining, much of the cockpit stays reasonably warm, but the feet, down in the shade, get cold.

From this month's Soaring mag, a long article on how cold is perceived and ways to manage it
http://www.danlj.org/~danlj/Soaring/SoaringRx/2018-12-Cold-management.pdf

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Saturday, December 29, 2018 at 2:53:38 PM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
> And nothing beats wool for staying warm.Â* It even keeps you warm when
> it's wet.Â* A little tidbit from arctic survival school...
>
> On 12/29/2018 1:38 PM, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> > I have done only a few flights above 13K' MSL in the east, never higher than that.
> > In other parts, 13K' MSL is a decent Soaring day.
> >
> > So, I am NOT an expert!
> >
> > Yes, metal rudder pedals can suck heat real fast.
> > Sunlight can help a lot.
> > Being damp (rigging, damp day, whatever.....) REALLY sucks heat.
> >
> > I can only go by many years/miles hiking and likely lower flight altitudes for flying.
> > I will TOTALLY defer to others that think my "great altitude" is sorta the bottom of their "safe altitude".
> >
> > Gotta think of where you are vs. where info is coming from.
>
> --
> Dan, 5J

Actually Dan, while wool is a great material for fabric, in technical uses it has been replaced by new technical fibers and will not absorb any water. I basically flying sailing clothes. Including wave flights in by leather sailing boots.

[Dan Marotta]

Maybe things have changed (I don't doubt that newer fibers may be as
good as wool), but we were taught that leather was a terrible
insulator.Â* Maybe there's something inside your leather sailing boots
which insulates?

On 12/30/2018 9:01 PM, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> On Saturday, December 29, 2018 at 2:53:38 PM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> And nothing beats wool for staying warm.Â* It even keeps you warm when
>> it's wet.Â* A little tidbit from arctic survival school...
>>
>> On 12/29/2018 1:38 PM, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
>>> I have done only a few flights above 13K' MSL in the east, never higher than that.
>>> In other parts, 13K' MSL is a decent Soaring day.
>>>
>>> So, I am NOT an expert!
>>>
>>> Yes, metal rudder pedals can suck heat real fast.
>>> Sunlight can help a lot.
>>> Being damp (rigging, damp day, whatever.....) REALLY sucks heat.
>>>
>>> I can only go by many years/miles hiking and likely lower flight altitudes for flying.
>>> I will TOTALLY defer to others that think my "great altitude" is sorta the bottom of their "safe altitude".
>>>
>>> Gotta think of where you are vs. where info is coming from.
>> --
>> Dan, 5J
> Actually Dan, while wool is a great material for fabric, in technical uses it has been replaced by new technical fibers and will not absorb any water. I basically flying sailing clothes. Including wave flights in by leather sailing boots.

--
Dan, 5J

[Jonathan St. Cloud]

On Monday, December 31, 2018 at 8:34:54 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Maybe things have changed (I don't doubt that newer fibers may be as
> good as wool), but we were taught that leather was a terrible
> insulator.Â* Maybe there's something inside your leather sailing boots
> which insulates?
>
> On 12/30/2018 9:01 PM, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
> > On Saturday, December 29, 2018 at 2:53:38 PM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
> >> And nothing beats wool for staying warm.Â* It even keeps you warm when
> >> it's wet.Â* A little tidbit from arctic survival school...
> >>
> >> On 12/29/2018 1:38 PM, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
> >>> I have done only a few flights above 13K' MSL in the east, never higher than that.
> >>> In other parts, 13K' MSL is a decent Soaring day.
> >>>
> >>> So, I am NOT an expert!
> >>>
> >>> Yes, metal rudder pedals can suck heat real fast.
> >>> Sunlight can help a lot.
> >>> Being damp (rigging, damp day, whatever.....) REALLY sucks heat.
> >>>
> >>> I can only go by many years/miles hiking and likely lower flight altitudes for flying.
> >>> I will TOTALLY defer to others that think my "great altitude" is sorta the bottom of their "safe altitude".
> >>>
> >>> Gotta think of where you are vs. where info is coming from.
> >> --
> >> Dan, 5J
> > Actually Dan, while wool is a great material for fabric, in technical uses it has been replaced by new technical fibers and will not absorb any water. I basically flying sailing clothes. Including wave flights in by leather sailing boots.
>
> --
> Dan, 5J

I know, leather seems terrible but hey, Yeti and cows do just fine. Link below, but I have put wet feet and socks in these boots and came off my watch with dry feet, winter. https://www.dubarry.us/ultima-leather-sailing-boots
These boots are from Ireland, two things they know are drinking and staying dry/warm.

[Tom BravoMike]

Today (March 19, 2019), ArcticShield Men's Boot Insulator price reduced on Amazon to $14.35 (medium size). Just have ordered a pair.

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, March 19, 2019 at 11:51:27 AM UTC-4, Tom BravoMike wrote:
> Today (March 19, 2019), ArcticShield Men's Boot Insulator price reduced on Amazon to $14.35 (medium size). Just have ordered a pair.

Thanks for the tip. Alas, size "medium" is only claimed to fit mens' shoe sizes 8-9. Also one reviewer on Amazon said this:
"... they are sized too small. I wear an 11.5, so I ordered the XL (12-13) to be safe. I tried them on 3 different pairs of uninsulated boots, but none of them fit. Not only are they too short, but the bend for the ankle is all wrong, resulting in the toe not fitting. I will be returning and see if I have better luck with the XXL. Update: The XXL weren't much better. Slightly easier to get over my boots, but the fit is so tight ..."

[Charlie Quebec]

Or you could like just fly a DG, no cold feet here. It is weird seeing your toes directly ahead though. :)

[Tom BravoMike]

On Tuesday, March 19, 2019 at 11:12:17 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 19, 2019 at 11:51:27 AM UTC-4, Tom BravoMike wrote:
> > Today (March 19, 2019), ArcticShield Men's Boot Insulator price reduced on Amazon to $14.35 (medium size). Just have ordered a pair.
>
> Thanks for the tip. Alas, size "medium" is only claimed to fit mens' shoe sizes 8-9. Also one reviewer on Amazon said this:
> "... they are sized too small. I wear an 11.5, so I ordered the XL (12-13) to be safe. I tried them on 3 different pairs of uninsulated boots, but none of them fit. Not only are they too short, but the bend for the ankle is all wrong, resulting in the toe not fitting. I will be returning and see if I have better luck with the XXL. Update: The XXL weren't much better. Slightly easier to get over my boots, but the fit is so tight ..."

OK, so I got them today (medium size). Thinner than I thought, but will have to try them out in cold and wet conditions. My size is 8.5 and they fit my shoes without any problem. I have ordered another pair for my brother immediately. Flying or hiking in the woods, they may provide SOME additional protection. No big risk at $13.40 (yes, the price went down even more).

[Dan Marotta]

We've been wearing them for wave flying for a year or two with only
sneakers underneath.Â* They're terrific at keeping the feet warm.Â* I
don't think they'd be worth much for hiking, however.Â* They're designed
for sitting in a tree or duck blind in miserable weather, which is an
apt description for the top of the wave...

On 3/20/2019 6:26 PM, Tom BravoMike wrote:
> ArcticShield Men's Boot Insulator

--
Dan, 5J